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> Do You Know Your Competition?, Do you know why the FRENCH HORSES are .....
MHuprich
post Mar 28 2012, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 28 2012, 12:15 PM) *
[attachment=122586:mangan72.jpg]

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.


I'm with Ray on this. I could admire this like I do warmbloods and other breeds of horses, but it's not what I'm breeding.
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 28 2012, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (MHuprich @ Mar 28 2012, 11:00 AM) *
I'm with Ray on this. I could admire this like I do warmbloods and other breeds of horses, but it's not what I'm breeding.

Ditto.........
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SKM
post Mar 28 2012, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 28 2012, 04:15 PM) *
[attachment=122586:mangan72.jpg]

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.


My two cents worth are that I dont agree it necessarily 'betrays TB blood'. Yes it could do, but then again, it also could not. As a highly respected scientist once said to me: "An elephant has big ears, but not everything with big ears is an elephant". What it does betray is nigh on 100 years of breeding to race over distances suitable for racecourses and gamblers, but not suitable for Arabians. For me it is fascinating to see a modern 'evolution' by selective breeding almost replicating that which created the TB in the first place. See below for what may be an exlpanation as to how this came to pass. Selective breeding has changed the 'look' of many domestic animals in a far quicker time frame than that. Sure, someone somewhere along the line some 80 or 90 years ago may have used an Anglo or a Thoroughbred stallion but registered the horse as being by an Arab, to 'cheat' for racing - we will never know for sure. But the world is a big place and there is room for every different 'type' of Arabian according to what each country and individual breeder likes and enjoys. There are plenty of breeders in France who breed typey but still athletic Arabians of other bloodlines, for showing, endurance, and leisure riding. Last year France produced nearly 1,800 registered purebred foals - compare that to less than 4,000 now in USA - and just as in USA, they come in all shapes and sizes and from all different bloodlines. Personally, I celebrate them all.

Nicole de Bomarc writes this - loose translation - in her article (from 2002) about the influence of Arabians on French Anglo-Arab breeding. Incidentally, the Anglo-Arab as a breed was created by the French in the mid 1800's.
"Why is the French Arabian, which was so well researched by so many breeders in the 1920s and 1930s and which has served the Anglo-Arab so well, now being contested by certain people? Because the selection which was imposed on them has transformed them. Horses in our country were originally for military use or for practical service. Around 1830 the horse had also become, for a certain elite, a race horse, because the racecourse was the only available field of selection. For the last 20 years, the horse in our country has become a horse for sport and for pleasure. The Arabian more than all the horse breeds has had to submit to this evolution, and also so has the Anglo-Arab. Because of the influence that the racecourse and its rules and training for flat racing will have, based on the Arabian families which are the foundation of the big stud farms breeding racing Anglo-Arabs, it is at the same time both beneficial and dangerous.
Beneficial because of the affirmation of generation on generation of quality, dangerous because of the alteration of type and conformation, and this is because a fundamental error was made by those responsible for breeding for racing, from the year 1895 onwards. In effect, the distances imposed on flat races for the races reserved for Arabians are identical to those imposed on Anglo-Arabs and which were copied from those for Thoroughbreds. And this was a refusal to acknowledge the special uniqueness of the Arabian. The Arabian is born a runner, it is capable of maximum speed over very short race distances (1200 to 1400 metres) and of great endurance over long race distances (4000 to 7000 metres). To therefore impose on them a racing distance of 1800 to 2400 metres was to deny their ancestral qualities, and to turn our backs on all the previous history of selection. To put them into a training and selection system which was not their own, was also to risk affecting their conformation, type, breed characteristics and above all their temperament.
This evolution will be effective in 3 generations and Denouste is the most well known example. Why be surprised now, when one remembers that his dam, as well as his 2nd and 3rd dams, had figured with success on the racecourse, as did all their sisters, and that all were progeny of the dams of winners. " END QUOTE
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MHuprich
post Mar 28 2012, 06:49 PM
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I have seen MANY purebred arabians that look similar and that are good racehorses over the shorter distances. However, I am not breeding racehorses,.
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HLM
post Mar 28 2012, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 28 2012, 08:39 PM) *
My two cents worth are that I dont agree it necessarily 'betrays TB blood'. Yes it could do, but then again, it also could not. As a highly respected scientist once said to me: "An elephant has big ears, but not everything with big ears is an elephant". What it does betray is nigh on 100 years of breeding to race over distances suitable for racecourses and gamblers, but not suitable for Arabians. For me it is fascinating to see a modern 'evolution' by selective breeding almost replicating that which created the TB in the first place. See below for what may be an exlpanation as to how this came to pass. Selective breeding has changed the 'look' of many domestic animals in a far quicker time frame than that. Sure, someone somewhere along the line some 80 or 90 years ago may have used an Anglo or a Thoroughbred stallion but registered the horse as being by an Arab, to 'cheat' for racing - we will never know for sure. But the world is a big place and there is room for every different 'type' of Arabian according to what each country and individual breeder likes and enjoys. There are plenty of breeders in France who breed typey but still athletic Arabians of other bloodlines, for showing, endurance, and leisure riding. Last year France produced nearly 1,800 registered purebred foals - compare that to less than 4,000 now in USA - and just as in USA, they come in all shapes and sizes and from all different bloodlines. Personally, I celebrate them all.

Nicole de Bomarc writes this - loose translation - in her article (from 2002) about the influence of Arabians on French Anglo-Arab breeding. Incidentally, the Anglo-Arab as a breed was created by the French in the mid 1800's.
"Why is the French Arabian, which was so well researched by so many breeders in the 1920s and 1930s and which has served the Anglo-Arab so well, now being contested by certain people? Because the selection which was imposed on them has transformed them. Horses in our country were originally for military use or for practical service. Around 1830 the horse had also become, for a certain elite, a race horse, because the racecourse was the only available field of selection. For the last 20 years, the horse in our country has become a horse for sport and for pleasure. The Arabian more than all the horse breeds has had to submit to this evolution, and also so has the Anglo-Arab. Because of the influence that the racecourse and its rules and training for flat racing will have, based on the Arabian families which are the foundation of the big stud farms breeding racing Anglo-Arabs, it is at the same time both beneficial and dangerous.
Beneficial because of the affirmation of generation on generation of quality, dangerous because of the alteration of type and conformation, and this is because a fundamental error was made by those responsible for breeding for racing, from the year 1895 onwards. In effect, the distances imposed on flat races for the races reserved for Arabians are identical to those imposed on Anglo-Arabs and which were copied from those for Thoroughbreds. And this was a refusal to acknowledge the special uniqueness of the Arabian. The Arabian is born a runner, it is capable of maximum speed over very short race distances (1200 to 1400 metres) and of great endurance over long race distances (4000 to 7000 metres). To therefore impose on them a racing distance of 1800 to 2400 metres was to deny their ancestral qualities, and to turn our backs on all the previous history of selection. To put them into a training and selection system which was not their own, was also to risk affecting their conformation, type, breed characteristics and above all their temperament.
This evolution will be effective in 3 generations and Denouste is the most well known example. Why be surprised now, when one remembers that his dam, as well as his 2nd and 3rd dams, had figured with success on the racecourse, as did all their sisters, and that all were progeny of the dams of winners. " END QUOTE



thank you again SKM for your explicite post.

Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.
They are doing very well, are we I am asking our posters here.?

I feel that some day that halter craze will stop and people like in the past centuries want a horse to ride, etc.
May be our upcoming generation will look after that.
That of course does not mean the sportshorse has to be ugly. I dont consider Serenity Habib, his brothers or dam ugly, nor Serenity Sonbolah I personally rode through and over anything, so to speak, as I did with many of our horses.
Many were also halter champions or even most classics some. I saw verious French Arabians in the UAE etc which were beautiful.

What I really meant to bring forth is, that SEs can be formidle competitors also against the Mangante bloodlines.

you mendtioned the distance of racing. I found that my racers warmed up to 5 to 6th furlong and than started running and after a mile could another two.Many of these SEs from particular bloodlines got what it takes.
However, training has a lot to do with it, and a 3year old SE one better be careful to not start to early. They mature at about age 12, start coming into their own at about age 7, or should I say when more stringenous work can be done and the mind is less playfull . At least I refer to mine. The egyptian bred, top sired with an SE were different again.
they matured faster, but were not as fast as my Ses.

Therefore I guess, each to its own

Take care
Hansi


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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 28 2012, 07:36 PM
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I agree that the horse pictured could very well be a purebred, but he is of a different type than most arabian horse breeders want to breed. Doesn't make him any less a good horse. Nobody is saying that, however, the only people who could be considered to be in competion of any sort with that "type" of horse would be those who breed only for racing. I am not sure what that percentage would be, but it would be pretty small. ........I think that most people still want to breed for a very versatile horse, that could do well in any discipline, if given the right training.
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2mntn
post Mar 28 2012, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 28 2012, 01:15 PM) *
thank you again SKM for your explicite post.

Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.
They are doing very well, are we I am asking our posters here.?

I feel that some day that halter craze will stop and people like in the past centuries want a horse to ride, etc.
May be our upcoming generation will look after that.
That of course does not mean the sportshorse has to be ugly. I dont consider Serenity Habib, his brothers or dam ugly, nor Serenity Sonbolah I personally rode through and over anything, so to speak, as I did with many of our horses.
Many were also halter champions or even most classics some. I saw verious French Arabians in the UAE etc which were beautiful.

What I really meant to bring forth is, that SEs can be formidle competitors also against the Mangante bloodlines.

you mendtioned the distance of racing. I found that my racers warmed up to 5 to 6th furlong and than started running and after a mile could another two.Many of these SEs from particular bloodlines got what it takes.
However, training has a lot to do with it, and a 3year old SE one better be careful to not start to early. They mature at about age 12, start coming into their own at about age 7, or should I say when more stringenous work can be done and the mind is less playfull . At least I refer to mine. The egyptian bred, top sired with an SE were different again.
they matured faster, but were not as fast as my Ses.

Therefore I guess, each to its own

Take care
Hansi


.


Hi Hansi,

Do you know the times this horse, Maganate, turned in? If so, how do they compare with Serenity Mamlouk?
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diane
post Mar 29 2012, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 29 2012, 02:15 AM) *
[attachment=122586:mangan72.jpg]

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.

...and TBs come via a great deal of Arabian blood. Just a different breeding emphasis. It's documented that some French Arabians are bred for racing. So that style of hindquarter might not be mutually exclusive?

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diane
post Mar 29 2012, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 29 2012, 05:15 AM) *
Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.


Personally, competition isn't a driver for me.

But I have enjoyed the posts - thanks everyone.
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Fairfax
post Mar 29 2012, 05:43 AM
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The Poles and Russians have also raced their Arabians for many generations. Skrypt, Russian, does tend to look TB'y however Witraz most certainly does not.

Interesting that the French Arabs have morphed into "another type" so dramatically

Roxanne Rogers has written extensively about the French Arabs. She owned a Forta son, Falat and her Dad, Allan showed the FIRST double national champion halter mare...Arwistawa
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Teymur B
post Mar 29 2012, 06:07 AM
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Why the French Arabian's look's so different as a Polish, Russian or Turkish Arabian Purebred Racehorses? blink.gif unsure.gif huh.gif

If they breed only on racing performance, the Type is other's, yes, but that has nothing to do with Muniqi blood.

As an example:
A Turkish Arabian breeding stallion, a Muniqi, successful race horse and producer of racehorses.
He look's Arabian more as a French Arabian

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orient arabians
post Mar 29 2012, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Teymur B @ Mar 29 2012, 07:07 AM) *
Why the French Arabian's look's so different as a Polish, Russian or Turkish Arabian Purebred Racehorses? blink.gif unsure.gif huh.gif

If they breed only on racing performance, the Type is other's, yes, but that has nothing to do with Muniqi blood.

As an example:
A Turkish Arabian breeding stallion, a Muniqi, successful race horse and producer of racehorses.
He look's Arabian more as a French Arabian



just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michèle
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 29 2012, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 29 2012, 10:42 AM) *
just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michèle


Very interesting post, Michele, thank you for your frank honesty. I know very little about the French Arabian bloodlines or the French racing situation, so am finding the information being shared here to be very educational. One point that really jumps out is the reaffirmation that prior to bloodtyping and/or DNA testing for registration, relying exclusively upon pedigree information, or data in general, to "prove" purity is not possibe -- this requires a leap of faith. Data on the pre-testing horses represents only what someone, somewhere recorded...right or wrong.

Evolution by adaptation, from what I understand, can occur faster than we might imagine but three generations in horses seems very fast to me. Also, while organisms can undergo phenotype changes rather quickly as a result of adaptation, it takes much longer for those traits to become fixed or set. It would seem that a study of whether or not an individual who is strongly "off type" consistently reproduces his/her own modified phenotype consistently, and whether or not that particular phenotype is then passed on consistently from generation to generation, would provide significant insight on his/her actual lineage.
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HLM
post Mar 29 2012, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 29 2012, 10:42 AM) *
just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michèle



Dear Michelle
I appreciate your opinion and knowledge. I have not seen it, cant prove it and photos are not always that good or too good. I have seen georgeous photos and when I saw the horse, there was hardly any resemblance, and visa versa.

I also found that Arabians - Non Asils- bred for speed are also exremely versitile, as are most of the Asils.
Bu that goes for the TBS and Anglos as well, often excelling in dressage and jumping,3-day eventing, hunting etc. like the famous "Halla" under Winkler time ago.I bred quite a few in my lifetime and can attest to it. Never had a TB stud standing, we here in Florida take the mares to the stud and bring her back home. But I bred excellent Anglos here and in Canada, males were gelded quickly. right now I have a yearling Anglo filly which would blow your mind.

I also know that whatever is competing well is wanted by buyers, and to be competive and market we must not overlook this.

I thought that some people want to know why they have trouble marketing their horses or even cant give them away.
That not just happened now due to the economy, that happened already years ago. I always feel one should try to
find the motive- on anything- to get a better Idea.

Just my opinion
Hansi
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HLM
post Mar 29 2012, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 29 2012, 01:39 AM) *
Hi Hansi,

Do you know the times this horse, Maganate, turned in? If so, how do they compare with Serenity Mamlouk?



No I dont Ray, so have no comparrison. Speed also depends often on the tracks a horse runs and/or it condition.

Hansi
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