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> Marketing Questions For Breeders, sharing information on sales and marketing practices
HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 05:52 PM) *
Why would a pretty head be nghtmare for an experienced rider?

Why would someone put a knitting needle in a horse's mouth?



I did not say "pretty head" I said "fishhead/pikehead"Now if you can get into that mouth a full bridle, or even a nice big,fat german snaffle, you are doing great. Yes, it is a nightmare for an exprienced rider. Do you know what a proper full bridle is? It most certainly does not have the "kandare" in a knitting needle type. But some people are doing it, this is when you see pushed down backs, (weggedrueckter Ruecken) neck resistance, rearend resistance etc,etc,
I thought you knew that.

Hansi
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MHuprich
post Apr 15 2012, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 02:49 PM) *
I did not say "pretty head" I said "fishhead/pikehead"Wow if you can get into that mouth a full bridle, or even a nice big,fat german snaffle, you are doing great. Yes, it is a nightmare for an exprienced rider.

Hansi


If the mouth is not wide, wouldn't a smaller width bit work, like perhaps a size 4 bit? If not the bit width, what? Why is this a nightmare?

Why a knitting needle?
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HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 07:53 PM) *
If the mouth is not wide, wouldn't a smaller width bit work, like perhaps a size 4 bit? If not the bit width, what? Why is this a nightmare?

Why a knitting needle?



It has nothing to do with "Size" it is the width of the bit. You mean you have never seen a knitting needle type in a horse's mouth? Just look at the Engl.Pleasure,Country Please and Park horses- many of them.
The Kandare is indeed the size (width) of a knitting needle, and a "raisor blade" in the hands of the ignorant. Sicne nothing diffeent fits into the Fishhead type mouth, its a riders nightmare, hanging on to them, and wishing that God would have put handles on the horse instead.

Hansi
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MHuprich
post Apr 15 2012, 07:05 PM
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A size 4 bit is a more narrow bit - narrow in width from side to side. Or are you talking about the circumferences of the metal in the bit now the width of the bit, ie from side to side?

I have seen a lot of country and english horses - they are not noted for having narrow mouths or extreme faces. Why would the bit/bridle people use on an english horse be related to the bit/bridle on a dishy faced horse?



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HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 09:05 PM) *
A size 4 bit is a more narrow bit - narrow in width from side to side. Or are you talking about the circumferences of the metal in the bit now the width of the bit, ie from side to side?

I have seen a lot of country and english horses - they are not noted for having narrow mouths or extreme faces. Why would the bit/bridle people use on an english horse be related to the bit/bridle on a dishy faced horse?



Yes, I mean the circumferences. Those others using it?= As I said if reins/bits are to be hung on to, God would have grown a couple of handles on the horse. Such horses are basically RUINED. They are "Subdued" and they are in pain. Plus ad a "copper bit" now you have the caliver flowing like a flood stream, and it is "white" and the true calibre from chewing on the bit, being on the bit, is slightly "grey",. And you can also see things on the hindquarters, how they engage, either happily forward or condensed. And when you see these horses "walking" its a funeral march, petrified,.

I did not say "dished face" I said Fishhead/Pikehead" with an unrealistic concave bend over the portion below an actual jibba.
Go on the internet and find out "head types of equine" if it is there, you can see what I mean.
The snout is very short in most all cases, not enough room for a comfortable and kind bit. this is why experienced riders stay away from such horses, when they need a bit comfortable enough, to do stress performances.
A horse trained on the knitting needle typ, will always crawl back into itself for fear. Now Liz Salom knows all this, and if she were to select one of those for a client wanting to do stress work, flat or endurance etc, it would be wrong, when such horses in my opinion are worth 50cents per pound on the hoof, and you end up just looking at them. Surely Liz would check the length of the jawl/mouth, such an important factor.
.
Now you ask why people put that knitting needle type in the mouth, and I ask you why would anybody in their right mind breed for "fisheads/pikeheads".? Who started this fad? and who all is getting on this bandwaggon ready to break down? Most of all who will buy such deformed disasters?

Hansi

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Liz Salmon
post Apr 15 2012, 07:51 PM
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I was taught by my Dressage trainer who was with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years that the best bit for Arabians are the thick French Snaffles as they have 2 joints instead of one. He said that the jaws of most Arabians are a bit narrower than other breeds, so that the single joint often acted like a nut cracker. He was a very wise knowledgable man and one of the very few Brits to be accepted by the Spanish Riding School. I have always used them, so does my daughter and NEVER the thin, abusive wire bits.
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HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 08:51 PM) *
I was taught by my Dressage trainer who was with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years that the best bit for Arabians are the thick French Snaffles as they have 2 joints instead of one. He said that the jaws of most Arabians are a bit narrower than other breeds, so that the single joint often acted like a nut cracker. He was a very wise knowledgable man and one of the very few Brits to be accepted by the Spanish Riding School. I have always used them, so does my daughter and NEVER the thin, abusive wire bits.



I knew you would Liz. However we still need the mouth to fit in the bits we speak off.
I never used the 2jointed once, only use the German Snaffle bits to start off with, first longing- D-ring- shortly thereafter ONLY snaffle with large lose ring.

when it comes to a full bridle, lit is only used for higher dressage levels, as the "Kandare" HAS ONLY
ONE FUNCTION "TO LOWER THE HOCKS", after they are well gymanstizied.

I always love using the Pelhams, it gives control with a younger horse, and of course after it has proper good training on a snaffle before, and can give more accurate movement and control., etc.

I guess we come from the same old school, eh.

Hansi
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MHuprich
post Apr 15 2012, 08:08 PM
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I do not see any correlation between the use of the narrow twisted wire bits and the size of the muzzle/jaw area.
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Liz Salmon
post Apr 15 2012, 08:18 PM
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For Hansi's info, I just counted how many evaluated horses from small breeders I sold over the last 4 years-- it was 47, the best year being 2008 when I sold 22 and one from a big breeder, but still seen and evaluated. I have sold 3 so far this year. They are nearly all young horses and overseas sales. I have another pending. I evaluated 6 horses last week in Arkansas just before my surgery. A couple of great potential dressage geldings among them.
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HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 10:18 PM) *
For Hansi's info, I just counted how many evaluated horses from small breeders I sold over the last 4 years-- it was 47, the best year being 2008 when I sold 22 and one from a big breeder, but still seen and evaluated. I have sold 3 so far this year. They are nearly all young horses and overseas sales. I have another pending. I evaluated 6 horses last week in Arkansas just before my surgery. A couple of great potential dressage geldings among them.



that's great, congrats. I hope your surgery went well and that you are okay. Imstruggled along too, 8 days hospital and in ICU, but am okay the best it can be under the circumstances. In Germany we say "Unkraut vergeht nicht" (weeds dont die) so may be that's what it is, eh smile.gif

Take care
Hansi
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HLM
post Apr 15 2012, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 10:08 PM) *
I do not see any correlation between the use of the narrow twisted wire bits and the size of the muzzle/jaw area.



OMG, I cant believe what I read/hearing. All these new inventions and where did it exactly take the horses?
Go back to old books, equipment, and see what was used then up todate by those taught properly. the arab has a very sensitive mouth and great equipment care should be taken. What you stated belongs in the mouth of a gator.

Hansi
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MHuprich
post Apr 15 2012, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 04:44 PM) *
OMG, I cant believe what I read/hearing. All these new inventions and where did it exactly take the horses?
Go back to old books, equipment, and see what was used then up todate by those taught properly. the arab has a very sensitive mouth and great equipment care should be taken. What you stated belongs in the mouth of a gator.

Hansi


I am NOT promoting the use of twisted wire or knitting needles in the mouth of the horse. You are the one that said this is somehow related to an extremely dishy face. I am trying to understand how the extremely dishy face requires the use of the small circumference bit or knitting needles.
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mckulley1
post Apr 15 2012, 10:32 PM
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And who would you suggest be the yacht for someone when they have no or little experience? We are not all yachts when it comes to marketing, breeding, etc.


QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 01:19 PM) *
McKulley

"paddling your own boat" is meant differently, it is meant that when the engines of a yacht konk out, the paddle boat will get there.


take care
hansi

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mckulley1
post Apr 15 2012, 10:37 PM
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And frankly, have you ever seen an "extreme head" in a bridle w/a bit in the mouth? SNORT! It is very clear our performance horses do not equal "extreme" heads. And our performance horses are almost never Halter horses because the Halter judges demand extreme heads.

Hey, I don't make the rules.....
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HLM
post Apr 16 2012, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Apr 16 2012, 12:37 AM) *
And frankly, have you ever seen an "extreme head" in a bridle w/a bit in the mouth? SNORT! It is very clear our performance horses do not equal "extreme" heads. And our performance horses are almost never Halter horses because the Halter judges demand extreme heads.

Hey, I don't make the rules.....



You are right Mckulley, the pike heads were not bred for performance, it is said. So why dont we just get back to the subject marketing, and I am also guilty for helping to changing it. So I apologyze to Linda, who started the topic

thank you
Hansi
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