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> Conformation, Confirmation....please!
gajustice
post Jul 19 2012, 11:09 PM
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I am just getting started in the Arabian Horse breeding end of the business and I am wondering; where in the world are all the conformation shots?!?!?!? I have only seen a hand full of stallions that show anything from the neck down and those stallions are all moving or there tail is in your face.

I would like to start off by saying that as far as Im concerned, a show record is the absolute last thing I look for in a stallion prospect. I dont take chances on unproven stallions unless they possess superior conformation. I would rather pay for a higher stud fee on a proven stallion, but as stated earlier there are simply no conformation shots. Based off numerous websites the only thing that breeders are offering to the general public is pretty heads. Sorry, but I cant ride a head!

I know that Arabians are advertised with a certain "style", I get that; but come on. I want the choices that I make to be based off of conformation not who has the prettiest, most expensive ad campaign. I am more than able to travel to see potential prospects but dont want to be let down after traveling to find a sub-par stallion.

I can look at the videos, but I need something I can print off and spread out over the dining room table and compare. This method has served me well in the past, I used to show Quarter Horses in Western Pleasure. I have now been able to focus on my first true love, the Arabian. Unfortunately, do to my family's business in the QH world I had break away to follow my true passion.

I am not ignorant to the horse world nor the Arabian world, just wondering why people will not post confirmation shots.

Thanks in advance for your input.
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2mntn
post Jul 19 2012, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 19 2012, 05:09 PM) *
I am just getting started in the Arabian Horse breeding end of the business and I am wondering; where in the world are all the conformation shots?!?!?!? I have only seen a hand full of stallions that show anything from the neck down and those stallions are all moving or there tail is in your face.

I would like to start off by saying that as far as Im concerned, a show record is the absolute last thing I look for in a stallion prospect. I dont take chances on unproven stallions unless they possess superior conformation. I would rather pay for a higher stud fee on a proven stallion, but as stated earlier there are simply no conformation shots. Based off numerous websites the only thing that breeders are offering to the general public is pretty heads. Sorry, but I cant ride a head!

I know that Arabians are advertised with a certain "style", I get that; but come on. I want the choices that I make to be based off of conformation not who has the prettiest, most expensive ad campaign. I am more than able to travel to see potential prospects but dont want to be let down after traveling to find a sub-par stallion.

I can look at the videos, but I need something I can print off and spread out over the dining room table and compare. This method has served me well in the past, I used to show Quarter Horses in Western Pleasure. I have now been able to focus on my first true love, the Arabian. Unfortunately, do to my family's business in the QH world I had break away to follow my true passion.

I am not ignorant to the horse world nor the Arabian world, just wondering why people will not post confirmation shots.

Thanks in advance for your input.


Two reasons: One, confOrmation shots are mostly boring and unimpressive. Two, photos can be very misleading in passing judgment on a horse.
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Marilee
post Jul 20 2012, 12:01 AM
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This is a great question. Several years ago a friend was looking at several different quarter horse stallions for her mare. I got to see that-----photos all over the kitchen table of the 2 stallions they had singled out, based on performance and production of foals. You could see the conformation (side, full body shots, and photos front and rear--close ups of legs/chest/hind end/gaskins/ stifles/angulation), and then could compare with the mare, to see what strengths and weaknesses MIGHT be there. I think they had seen videos too, not sure if they saw the stallions in person. But I know that years later, with 2 different stallions, with excellent vet work and stallion collection and mare insemination, I got to see 2 foals (to my eyes) each superior to the mare, with the better characteristics of the stallion added, plus they had much better athletic ability than the mare expressed, and very trainable minds. .

That is the ideal, that one can study and then apply your knowledge to the mare, and then hope for an improvement on her, but certainly not one not as good as her, or less than her. The mare does have most of the impact on the foal, but somehow people give far too much credit and blame to the stallion. Also, show record does not always indicate a superior horse. Halter showing should be about comparing a horse to the "standards" of the breed, but often it does not. So seeing side and front and rear shots of a horse, really showing its anatomy/angulation/ proportion/structure (and assuming some geometry and physics here), how it translates into movement and soundness and potential longevity. Photos can be altered, videos can be edited, we know some horses have been surgerically altered, so it is nice to see the truth---the horse before you to compare and judge for yourself. Years ago we did photos of our horses, and those I like today are those which really show the horses as they were, not as they might have been. You must have confidence in your horse and honesty to put that photo out there, and be able to study it yourself and explain it to others, good or bad. I want to see 3 circles of balance (front, middle and rear), and equal strength fore and aft. I want to see an Arabian, but more importantly, a horse with correct comformation/anatomy/proportion, which will stay sound a long time, and which has the potential to be halter AND performance. Photos can help, but it sure is better to see the real horse, to see if the perception matches the reality.
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gajustice
post Jul 20 2012, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Jul 19 2012, 07:35 PM) *
Two reasons: One, confOrmation shots are mostly boring and unimpressive. Two, photos can be very misleading in passing judgment on a horse.

As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.
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Robert 1
post Jul 20 2012, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 02:05 AM) *
As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.

Try looking at * Alaa Jabbar at the top of the classifieds, thanks
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gajustice
post Jul 20 2012, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 19 2012, 08:15 PM) *
Try looking at * Alaa Jabbar at the top of the classifieds, thanks

Robert 1,

I pressume you mean the first picture of him. Yes this is a nice shot and a well trained eye can see his attributes, but I am speaking from a cut and dry stand point. I am looking for examples more along the lines of Imperial Baareg's conformation shot, directly from the side. Alla Jabbar is beautiful, taking absolutely nothing from him. That photo of him is probably one in a billion.
Maybe I am just behind the times, but I remeber when there were great conformation shots throughout the magazines of yester year. I have hoarded many an AHW and AHT magazine. I just dont understand why people have gotten away from this, as a whole. Thanks for the response.
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gajustice
post Jul 20 2012, 12:33 AM
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Thank you Marilee for your post. Much appreciated.
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Robert 1
post Jul 20 2012, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 02:31 AM) *
Robert 1,

I pressume you mean the first picture of him. Yes this is a nice shot and a well trained eye can see his attributes, but I am speaking from a cut and dry stand point. I am looking for examples more along the lines of Imperial Baareg's conformation shot, directly from the side. Alla Jabbar is beautiful, taking absolutely nothing from him. That photo of him is probably one in a billion.
Maybe I am just behind the times, but I remeber when there were great conformation shots throughout the magazines of yester year. I have hoarded many an AHW and AHT magazine. I just dont understand why people have gotten away from this, as a whole. Thanks for the response.

No sorry, the shot of him is not one in a billion, there have been many shots of him since he was a weanling and they all show the same, and many taken by amatuers with hand held pocket cameras and cell phones, what you see in his pictures is even better in person and this was said by everyoen who have seen and touched him in person.
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gajustice
post Jul 20 2012, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 19 2012, 09:42 PM) *
No sorry, the shot of him is not one in a billion, there have been many shots of him since he was a weanling and they all show the same, and many taken by amatuers with hand held pocket cameras and cell phones, what you see in his pictures is even better in person and this was said by everyoen who have seen and touched him in person.

I am not speaking only of him when I said one in a billion. I am speaking to the point of my o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l post. There are thousands of pictures taken of stallions that do not show their full conformation. That Robert 1 is what I am speaking of. Speaking of that particular picture, the photographer is not standing directly at the side of him. Of the photos posted, that is the only one that I saw even closely resembling a full on side shot. Thank you for your post, not sure how it was relevant to the OP, but thanks just the same.
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northwind
post Jul 20 2012, 03:47 AM
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I think most photographers do not like to take them directly from the side?
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sgarabians
post Jul 20 2012, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 12:05 AM) *
As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.


For many admirers of the breed today 'glamour' seems more important than perfect conformation. We have all seen horses that are slightly less than perfect but which have a certain je ne sais quoi that translates into a quality that negates their physical shortcomings. But todays advertising and promotion is appealing to perhaps more of that perception in the reader/viewer than it is actually appealing to someone looking to assess and make an informed decision. Certainly the editions of AHW of the 80's and 90's illustrated almost universally conformation shots of stallions and show winners and were far more informative to students of the breed - particular those of us half a world away - than any international publications of today IMO.
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gajustice
post Jul 20 2012, 05:14 AM
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sgarabians,

I couldn't agree with you more!
No stallion or mare is perfect, ask any true horseman. I can, but WILL NOT give out names as this is not a bashing thread; but given the way a few websites have been set up, if I were to breed my mares strictly by what these websites offer video wise, some of these stallions could have 5 legs and be just as cow hocked and no one would know the wiser because the show nothing below the ribs.
It is sad to say that some; again not all, of these websites seem to run off of starlight and fairy dust. These stallions seem to be powder puffs and Im willing to bet the majority of them dont have more than a good week of Sundays saddle sweat on their backs.
Again Im not bashing; it's just seems so much effort has been placed on the Arabian "dream" rather than the Arabian himself. I am only coming into this part of the "horse world" fairly new and no one can deny that other "newbies" are probably seeing things the same way I am.
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alythlong
post Jul 20 2012, 08:23 AM
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I have to laugh.....it's not just the photographs that many people seem to think are informative!! The whole "show stance" is designed to disguise flaws and make the horse look fantastic!! So you get photos taken from the side, but slightly forward or back as required, and the horse "stood up" to disguise crooked legs, short necks, upright shoulders, weak quarters etc etc as required!! Actually to be brutally honest - it's dishonest!!
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BaileyArabians
post Jul 20 2012, 02:00 PM
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I think it's only dishonest if you are trying to buy a horse based on conformation, structure and usability. If you are trying to buy a horse with the best artistic photo then you are getting exactly what you want.

I think many modern Arabian owners who show their horses are so far removed from riding that it really doesn't matter to them if they show conformation shots in marketing or have them trained to ride with the idea of usability. They like them because they are pretty, they have someone else take care of them, they train them to look pretty and they sell them as pretty things.

I've seen arabian marketing pictures that just show just an eye, the top of the back and a butthole. What does that tell you? Are these folks dishonest or just in a completely different world than folks who ride and use horses? Why would you post that and think your horse would sell to anyone?

Why would you post that your horse for sale is by two stallions..no mention of a mare line at all. Are you trying to say it's a miracle foal? Why just post that there's an extremely exotic horse for sale with no other information sometimes not even a contact number. Why should buying a horse be some sort of huge mystery???

Here's my ad:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exotic amazing horse for sale, Sired by Nazeer, Dam was Nazeer. see attached picture of eye and butthole. Contact for more information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeeze wonder why they don't sell?


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MAXHOPEMIME
post Jul 20 2012, 04:22 PM
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When I wan't a reprive from all of the overmade up, hidden behind the bush Arabian stallion pictures I visit the TB farms websites. Every male horse there is presented in a classic conformation shot. The types of pictures you used to see on the walls of horse people.
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