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> Exorchorda Nicht Mehr / Not Longer Se?
Guest_Guest_KS_*
post May 1 2003, 10:04 PM
Post #1





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Ich habe gerade in der AHRA-Online DataSource (www.arabianhorses.org) festgestellt, dass man bei EXORCHORDA den aegyptischen Zuechter "RAS" gestrichen hat. Es gibt gar keine Zuechterangabe mehr.
Sie ist demnach - per Definition der Pyramid Society - nicht mehr Straight Egyptian. So wie Hansi Heck-Melnyk immer wieder betont hat.

Straight Egyptian ist ein arabisches Pferd doch nur dann, wenn es von anerkannten aegyptischen Zuechtern und Zuchtlinien kommt (RAS, EAO, Inshass, Polizei Kairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables und El Sherif).

Das würde in der Konsequenz ja möglicherweise mehr als 1000 Nachkommen betreffen!
Weiss jemand, was nun geschieht oder geschehen muss?
Korrigiert die Pyramid Society nun ihre Angaben?
Vielleicht klaert sich diese unendliche Geschichte ja nun endgueltig auf.

gbfahne.gif
I just noticed in the Online-DataSource of the AHRA (www.arabianhorses.org) that the breeder "RAS" was removed as breeder of "EXORCHORDA". No breeder at all is shown.
Therefore, by definition of the Pyramid Society she is not a Straight Egyptian anymore as Hansi Heck-Melnyk for many times insisted.

A straight Egyptian Arabian can only be one if the breeder/bloodlines come from the RAS, EAO, Inshass, Police Collegue Cairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables and El Sherif.

This means that possibly more than 1000 SE's offspring are involved.
Does anybody know what will happen now?
Will the Pyramid Society correct their registrations?
Hopefully this nerverending story will be cleared up.
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HLM
post May 1 2003, 11:25 PM
Post #2


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HI guest KS

yes, you are correct, the breeder has been removed, and no breeder is shown, based on the original import documentation. Apparently the AHRa is doeing corrections based on facts. However, those who are interested to know, the mare is an "Asil" Mare , by her sire and dam as stated in the Agricultural Health certificate.
She is also remains an Asil Club Mare. So nothing is lost, I guess, except may be a label?

Hansi
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HLM
post May 2 2003, 12:19 AM
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Hi everybody

I have been thinking about this issue strongly.
those who have my Straight Egyptian Index will read
"If Exochorda is in, so must "Kars"?

those who have both bloodlines might wish to get together and form some form of a petition for the Pyramid Society, asking them to make an "Agenda" in which the bloodlines through "Exochorda" is accepted as a sub-list Straight Egyptian, provided that "Kars" receives the same treatment. Te latter would provide all the "Rabanna" offspring, which would qualify with the rest of their pedigree also beeing entered in the Agenda.
It for sure would make Richard Pritzlaff smile down from heaven, FINALLY, AND MAKE WRONG THINGS RIGHT!!

If you all succeed in this, than my 30years of work on the issue was NOT IN VAIN, if it matters. If you all need any help, call on me, I be at your side. And I dont even have the bloodlines.

Have a great evening
Hansi
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Guest_PS Breeder_*
post May 2 2003, 01:22 AM
Post #4





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Whoever wrote this is obviously not familiar with the Pyramid Society. Exochorda is Straight Egyptian, always has been and of course still is. Anyone who questions this only has to pick up the phone and call the PS office and ask. Gratnted, that isn't nearly as exciting as creating internet rumors but it is so much more ethical and responsible.

Since the poster who wrote this went to the trouble of checking the datasouce to look for the breeder's name, the question itself is very surprising since the answer is right there on that very same page. Here is the exact information from the AHRA datasource:
"*EXOCHORDA - AHR*816

Foal Date 01 Jan 1924
Color Chestnut
Gender Mare
Sire AIGLON
EGYPT*185
Dam LEILA
EGYPT*186
Dam's Sire
Status Presumed Deceased 02 Jul 1981
Breeder
Owners HENRY HERBERMANN 01-January-1930

Groups
The Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian "

Note that the sire's designation is EGYPT, the dam's designation is EGYPT, and the mare (*Exochorda's) designation is Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian.
That's about as clear and definite as it can be. Mrs. Heck seems to have some very strong opinions on a multitude of subjects, many which defy recognized facts. Oh well. Opinions are only opinions and rational or not, everyone is entitled to one. Informed people recognize that only the *real* authorities get to make the rules, and in the case of Straight Egy[ptians, that's the Pyramid Society, not Mrs. Heck. The Pyramid Society doesn't require the exact name of the breeder or the exact place of birth, never has. If it did, no one in the world would own a SE because there would be no such thing. All of them have ancestors with this very information missing, and more, as Mrs. Heck knows.
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Guest_Guest_*
post May 2 2003, 01:31 AM
Post #5





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QUOTE (Guest_KS @ May 1 2003, 11:04 PM)
A straight Egyptian Arabian can only be one if the breeder/bloodlines come from the RAS, EAO, Inshass, Police Collegue Cairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables and El Sherif.

No, this statement is completely wrong. No where does the Pyramid Society rules ever state this. Get the Pyramid Society Manual and you will see. This was already discussed not too long back. All the private breeders in Egypt were included, big or small. You are leaving out some of the most important once too.
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HLM
post May 2 2003, 02:28 AM
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Well, I am very familiar with the Pyramid Society rules.
I am a founder of it.

the breeder has been elimited out of the CDROM, because the breeder is unknown, so is the country of birth referring to original import documents, of which I and other researchers have copies.. Both parents were imported to Egypt and returned to another country after racing. THESE ARE FACTS.
I feel certain that the AHRa will also correct this, as their are trying to do their best in correcting errors now.

Furthermore, all owners/breeders who own a straight egpytian, bloolines originating from the seven lines, as mentioned by that guest KS, is absolutely correct.
the many new wonderful breeders in Egypt and other countries have offspring of bloodlines stated. These came after the creation of the PS.

I made a sincere recommendation, and find it strange that this is not fully recognized or understood.
Every country has their own laws, we have this here too, namely for lack of disclosure, misrepresentation, etc.etc.
My suggestion would prevent many a problem and everybody would be happy.

there are only few SE offspring through Kars alive.
Many more through Exochorda. So I think all parties who now make fun of this, better do some tall thinking.
Unless of course, you agree with misrepresentation, causing harm.

I feel, that there is nothing one can not discuss intelligently and come to a proper conclusion, serving the public in ethics and honesty.

Have a nice evening
Hansi
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HLM
post May 2 2003, 02:53 AM
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HI PS Breeder
O yes, the Pyramid Society indeed had to know the breeders name/or the owners name such as RAS,EAO,Inshass, albadeia, Hamdan, Police College ,El sherif Stud.and their predecessors. That should be absolutely clear to all SE breeders. Or are people buying an Se Arabian because a seller says so??? I have come across advertisment were Non-SE's were offered as "SE's.

this has nothing to do with imports made by such breeders , which are in many of all our pedigrees.
these imports did not return to their country of origin either.
these imports were incorporated in their breeding programs . therefore, please do not confuse the issue.
I am a bit astonished at what you are stating as an Se breeder. I was under the impression that all SE breeders/owners know how the Pyramid society was established and the rules thereof.

It is quite possible that the PS does not know as yet that the AHRa correctly corrected the status of the mare in question. they originally made an honest error, Raswan picked it up, Judi forbis did not check it out what Walter Schimanski put together, and this is how the problem started. If some of you are unwilling to understand this, I can not help. I suggest you go to the Registry and look at the import documents and then conclude. I am convinced that Judi Forbis did not realize the error when the foundation list was put together, otherwise she would have never permitted it. you also need to remember, that only particular bloodlines were incorporated, and the mare does not belong to either one, because the RAS did not breed her and nobody knows who did or where she came from..

the field "Breeder" is left empty -CDROM
the Field Owner" shows Herberman. Please read it correctly and do not go on a fishing trip..
.

Hansi
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Guest_Pyramid Society Breeder_*
post May 2 2003, 03:56 AM
Post #8





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QUOTE (HLM @ May 2 2003, 03:28 AM)
Well, I am very familiar with the Pyramid Society rules.
I am a founder of it.

Mrs. Heck seems to be the only person who is under the impression that she was a founder of the Pyramid Society. Strange, you'd really think that Judi Forbis and Doug Marshall would know about that, but they disagree. Hmmm.

If no breeder listed for Exochorda could mean disqualification as Straight Egyptian, think of what could happen to poor El Dere! How many thousands of Arabians would no longer qualify as Straight Egyptian if these interpretations were correct! Not to worry, they aren't. Since the AHRA datasource is being quoted as the authority, I did a search for El Dere. Here is what is listed:

EL DERE - RAS*20

Foal Date
Color Grey
Gender Stallion
Sire Desert Bred
Dam Desert Bred
Dam's Sire
Studbook
Reference
Volume 1 Page 0
Breeder
Owners

Groups
The Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian"

That's alot of empty spaces. Yet El Dere is still identified as Straight Egyptian. Imagine that. Pretty conclusive evidence regarding the Pyramid Society's requirement for specific breeder information. Exochroda's country of birth is Egypt of course, as shown in the datasource and all other records,
many people have copies of the orginal import documents.
Very easy to check out. The stories do seem to get more *creative* with the telling! Since so many people now have access to official information, you'd think the silly storytelling would stop since it reflects so badly on the storyteller. Aren't there better things to do with precious time?
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Guest_Breeder_*
post May 2 2003, 04:54 AM
Post #9





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QUOTE (HLM @ May 2 2003, 03:28 AM)
the breeder has been elimited out of the CDROM, because the breeder is unknown, so is the country of birth referring to original import documents, of which I and other researchers have copies.. Both parents were imported to Egypt and returned to another country after racing. THESE ARE FACTS.
I feel certain that the AHRa will also correct this, as their are trying to do their best in correcting errors now.

hansi- my stallion is a STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN Simeon Shai son. You are making claims that hurt me and my stallion and I have the right to know exactly what, if anything, you have to back them up. You claim to have documents that prove that Exochorda was not born in Egypt and you say that both of her parents were shipped out of the country after racing. What country? What date? Where did they go and who did they go to? What stud books are they listed in? I want you to post copies of those documents you say you and other researchers have. How come you're the only one who ever says this? You say they are FACTS. Facts can be easily proven. I demand that you provide the proof of what you are calling facts on this forum now. Don't say you don't know how to do it. You can fax them to someone who can post them for you with no problem. Time to put up or shut up.
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Guest_reluctant2_*
post May 2 2003, 05:12 AM
Post #10





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Dear Breeder,
she has been asked to do exactly that many times in the past, beginning in the mid 1990s and to this date nothing she has stated has been addressed. The answer will consist of a diatribe and an exhortation of her qualifications as a true blue researcher who only wants to prevent "hurts" to those newcomers who may be affected????? The fact that her manufactured "hurts" are a grasp at attention so a throne may be occupied and respect demanded, for we as little peope should not dare to question such a learned aged person???
Same Old, Same Old, Over and Over, she convinces some dolt to reopen the issue. Personally, she is beneath contempt and now for me, has become an object of pity......after all loneliness also suffers................how much she could contribute if the vindictiveness faded into the past?????????
JAL
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Guest_Guest_KS_*
post May 2 2003, 07:45 AM
Post #11





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Yes
I think the AHRA is a trustable data source.
I think also they only change data by proven documents.
So this is what I asked for. Information, documents and consequences on the base of accepted rules.
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Guest_A. S. Smith- Guest_*
post May 2 2003, 08:36 AM
Post #12





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It's okay KS... Listen to officials of these organizations like Mrs. Forbis, read the official publications and look to what and whom the major magazines publish. There is a lot of paranoid nonsense that is best ignored. Goodness knows that this dead horse Exochorda keeps getting whipped...am amazed there is anything left to flay. And even more amazed by who responds.
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Guest_PS Breeder_*
post May 2 2003, 11:43 AM
Post #13





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QUOTE (Guest_KS @ May 2 2003, 08:45 AM)
Yes
I think the AHRA is a trustable data source.
I think also they only change data by proven documents.
So this is what I asked for. Information, documents and consequences on the base of accepted rules.

KS, I feel that the AHRA Datasource is reliable too, although it does contain many errors. The problem is not in trusting the datasource, it is that you've draw the wrong conclusion based on the data. The contention that the lack of these details effects the qualification as Straight Egyptian is just plain incorrect. Isn't that obvious? It is as clear as the nose on your face, just READ the data. The contrast between the information for Exochorda and no information on El Dere is hard to ignore. It is even harder to ignore the fact that the same page shows them both as Pyramid Society Straight Egyptian. I can't understand why anyone would take the word of Mrs. Heck who has never had any authority in connection with the Pyramid Society instead of the Registry or the Pyramid Society itself, not for a blinking second! Pick up the phone! Write an email! Just ask them, its that simple! Go the right people for the true answers.
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Guest_Guest_*
post May 2 2003, 12:15 PM
Post #14





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As per http://www.pyramidsociety.org/about.htm site:

The Egyptian Arabian Defined


To qualify as a Straight Egyptian, as defined by The Pyramid Society, a horse must (1) be registered or eligible by pedigree for registration by the Arabian Horse Registry of America AND (2) trace in every line of its pedigree to horse born in Arabia Deserta; AND (3) trace in every line of its pedigree to a horse which falls within one or more of the following categories: a. owned or bred by Abbas Pasha I or Ali Pasha Sherif: b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal c. a horse which was a lineal ancestor of a horse described in a. or b. above; and d. other than those excluded above, a horse conceived and born in a private stud program in Egypt and imported directly to the United States and registered by the Arabian Horse Registry of America prior to the extension of the EAO's supervision to private Egyptian stud programs as reflected in Volume 4 of the EAO's stud book.
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Guest_Guest_*
post May 2 2003, 12:38 PM
Post #15





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In the case of El Dere, he qualified because he was used in the RAS / EAO breeding programs according to "b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal."

He was also used by Inchass Stud and Ahmed Hamza.
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