This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.
straightegyptians

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

9 Pages V  « < 4 5 6 7 8 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Frozen Semen
Robert 1
post Sep 8 2006, 01:24 AM
Post #76


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Senior Member
Posts: 2814
Joined: 14-November 05
From: Pennsylvania USA
Member No.: 2895



Hi Suellen,
You are congratulated in my eyes getting your mare in foal by way of Frozen Semen and your friend Marsha should be praised also for having a foal by Frozen Semen. wink.gif
To say not to try this method of breeding and only go for the good ole fashion way of live breedings of mares and stallions, is okay if the great stallion of your choice is next door and by that I mean close enough to take the mare to the stallion and breed and then take her home.
The problems with this is way of breeding are numerous.
Traveling on todays over crowded highways in not only expensive with the cost of fuel but, it is also extremly dangerous.
Leaving your pride and joy mare with another person to care for to be bred is not only risky to her being injured but, the board bill after several tries or even one and to wait to be ultrasound to be certain may be big enough to as they say,choke a horse. wink.gif
Then there is the other side, the stallion, many will not stand at stud and be open to the public if it only means live coverage, and the reason for this is not many stallion owners are going to risk injury to their prize stallion for a lot of work and a few thousand dollars. biggrin.gif
Then if your mare has a young foal by her side and this is often the case when breeding, this becomes another danger and obstical to overcome. wink.gif
Many farms and breeders are geeting very efficent at getting them in foal by Frozen Semen and the more we all try the better and less expensive it will become.
This brings us to the last option to support the live coverage of mare and stallion, to look for that fabulous colt, then try and buy it, then try and raise it and promote it and hope you made the right choice after spending many dollars, and remembering the words of that breeder from Mena, No one stallion is everything, so you may need to purchase more than one faboulous colt and do it all over again if you are trying to run a small breeding operation as most may be doing. biggrin.gif
I feel the more options one has the better. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 8 2006, 01:22 PM
Post #77


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



good morning all

Robert, I agree with you, but dont you think too many people started breeding horses? I believe there were some 49,000 breeder/owners registered at one time with the AHRA.

Breeding a good horse is harder then building a good car, I think, although I havent done the latter. How many people build their own cars, eh?

Indeed a breeder needs more than one stud, and we usully had 12 or more standing, because not every stud matches every mare. This you can only tell when you see the offspring. One also needs to have more than one foal on the ground, better still about 6 or more to truly compare.+Now it beomes expensive.

Referring to the TB breeders, they put their yearlings under saddle (I know I dont like that either) have in most cases their own training track and evaluate and sent them out to the track.Every one is tested, evaluated and not all make it. We used to do this too, every 3 years old went under saddle and was tested on our track. those which showed speed etc were raced, others sold as pleasure horses or given away, some sold as stallion material, if they were exceptional. One year we had 27 colts and one filly born, imagine it. these were mostly Egyptian bred colts.

Glennloch also had many studs standing and many excellent producing mares.
So did al-Marah, Babson, etc.

However, each to its own, as long as a good horse is produced and tested.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Suellen Taylor
post Sep 8 2006, 01:52 PM
Post #78


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1104
Joined: 24-October 03
From: Georgia..USA
Member No.: 902



Good morning Robert...and the best to the family! tongue.gif

I could not agree with you more...and the very VERY best of luck with your new little one..bet he is growing like a weed...I will be looking hard in a year or two!
And I know you will be prepared for cooled as well as frozen deliveries!

Ask Kelly what she thinks with one of the 'three senoritas"..LOL rolleyes.gif

This in utero foal is my 3rd frozen semen foal, and I have already ordered some more Dakharo semen for next year to repeat this breeding. I also agree with Hansi that when there is a good mating, you need to repeat, and see more results...I will be doing my 3rd breeding to Simeon Sedek next year. Both of the produced fillies have been sold....and have also done 3 with an Internationally known domestic stallion. They are under saddle, or will be soon!

Take care..post a photo or two!

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Al Sahrae Arabia...
post Sep 9 2006, 04:39 AM
Post #79


Senior Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 251
Joined: 7-March 05
Member No.: 2278



QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 7 2006, 03:36 PM)
Dear All

I am reading your posts and get a chill. I am advising our clients , friends, newcommers to the breed to never breed AI, to never buy an "AI" Arab, but go for the natural thing.To also never breed from an untested stallion, no matter how highly promoted or owned by noted people. IT WONT WORK!!!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


Dear Hansi

I mean absolutely no disrespect with my comments, however I have to disagree with your comment above. I think it is quite impossible in some cases not to use AI, and I don't understand why it is an issue. Some people won't, or can't send their mares for long transport trips to the stallion and so chilled semen is the only way to go. Some owners won't allow their stallions to breed naturally for fear of injury (if they have perhaps suffered an injury in the past).

Australia has such a small gene pool with regards to SE's. We desperately need new blood and there are some stallions/colts coming over to hopefully add to the gene pool. However, many stallions brought into the country are not available at public stud. To purchase a horse and bring over to Australia is expensive. I for one can vouch for that. We currently have a mare and colt in quarantine and the quarantine and transport costs alone has added up to US$23,000. Let alone the price to purchase them in the first place.

We have agreed that we will be allowing our colt to stand at public stud as we feel that it is what the country needs.

I totally disagree with the comments made on this forum stating that the bad mixes and foals have come from the fact that stallions haven't been seen before semen is purchased. I know of many people who have bred horses "naturally" and the foals not turn out as they would have liked.

In Europe and America you have such a variety to choose from and horses and/or semen travel from Europe to America and vice versa all the time. This just doesn't happen here. To quarantine a stallion for semen to be sent to Australia is the longest time.

I for one will in the future be looking at importing frozen semen for my mares. I believe that I have chosen my mares very carefully and have been very selective based on personal preference. I will be equally as careful when choosing a stallion I would like frozen semen from. At the end of the day, I may get the most amazing foal, then again I may not. Some lines just don't necessarily breed well to other lines and unfortunately with our limited gene pools when lines haven't been tried and tested with overseas lines we are unsure of what we will get. But we need desperately need to improve the gene pool here.

At the end of the day though, it is all personal preference which stallions each individual chooses to use, and which mares they use them on, and some breedings work and some don't. The stallion I like may not be the one someone else like. This doesn't mean that we are bad breeders.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who has posted already, but I think that many outside of Australia/NZ don't realise how difficult it is for us here, or how small a gene pool we have to work with. I commend all those in Australia/NZ who are trying increase our gene pool.


Regards
Helen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Robert 1
post Sep 9 2006, 12:29 PM
Post #80


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Senior Member
Posts: 2814
Joined: 14-November 05
From: Pennsylvania USA
Member No.: 2895



Attached Image

HI HELEN,
I LOVE YOUR THINKING AND THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND WE NEED TO HAVE MORE BREEDERS LIKE YOURSELF THAT ARE WILLING TO GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, LIKE IMPORT SOME FINE HORSES INTO
AUSTRALIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD AND THEN BE WILLING TO STAND THEM AT PUBLIC SUTD OR OFFER THE SALE OF FOALS FOR ALL TO ENJOY AND BUILD ON FOR THEIR OWN BREEDING PROGRAMS. FROZEN SEMEN IS GOING TO MAKE AN IMPACT ON THE WAY ARABIAN HORSES ARE BRED AROUND THE WORLD. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liz Salmon
post Sep 9 2006, 12:54 PM
Post #81


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3894
Joined: 17-March 03
From: Texas USA
Member No.: 94



Hansi, are you trying to tell me that my daughter shouldn't have bought her now 4th level Dressage horse who was 2005 US National Champion 2nd Level and Reserve 3rd Level because he was bred by A.I. ? You've seen him. Is he an inferior horse ? You absolutely cannot prove that shipped semen produces poor horses, as there are too many very successful performance horses that were bred by A.I.

Australia and New Zealand desperately need access to frozen semen to extend their gene pools. The expense of shipping horses to those countries is out sight for so many breeders.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 9 2006, 05:07 PM
Post #82


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



Dear Helen

I fully understand. I have studied and watched these AI hores for over 20 years and am petrified of it. What I noticed that suddenly detrimental faults pop up which are not in the pedigree of the horses or even the direct sires and dams. This refers to devided semen. Not only do I notice conformation faults, but also breeding problems, mental problems have popped up.

If indeed Australia has a shortcoming on stallions, do you think it might be a good idea to import about a dozen young colts, selected by experts without biast,bring them up , test them and have a nucleus of fresh blood?
Look how our original importers did it, Gleannloch imported many, Babson some,
Al-Mahrah did and does and grows their own too, so did we.and on and on.

When I was was young we had in Germany only a few breeding stations. For instance Hannover had over 100 stallions standing of all different breeds. Marbach and Babolna still do the same. Pompano, Pay, Tersk, Michalow and Janow also followed suit and the success is obvious. Even the Trakehner stud had 103 of various breeds.

Also I feel, just because the horse comes from a well selfpromoted farm and owners, does not give you a guarantee of producing consistently excellent stock. another problem is, that the average person is getting so used to poorly moving hoses, still saying they are super movers, when this is not so.
They have no comparrison to go by. On top of that some people for whatever reason try to discredit certain bloodlines, like for instance "Antar" who stands head and shoulders above many stallions I know.

I have just sold an absolutely super colt to Idaho together with six top, top broodmares, to insure a continous excellent breeding program and uniformity.
this colt "Serenity Mazal" (2004) is very tall, elegant and a bay and an incredible mover. He is out of the last Dalul daughter, an Antar Granddaughter and by our Serenity Mamlouk, who also carries the Antar blood, a proven sire, as she is a proven dam. He might turn out the SE to be reckoned with in the future.

I still maintain that breeding from fads, of a promotion which often is exagerated, does not always bring good results. I have seen it too often.
When I see an AI horse, knowing the semen has been split many times, I feel I no longer have a predictable pedigree, because the faults are not in it, so where do I look to outbreed them? Its not just the outside of a horse, the inside counts equally if not more.

Many of our smaller breeders do not have the funds to promote their horses or an excellent colt. But it is those one should go and see.
I have seen bad horses turned through conditinoing in to halter champions.
Take them into the pasture and 30 days later they no longer resemble that horse you saw winning. Take a good horse and do the same, and you will still
see the "good horse".

I used to say, if I were made up in Hollywood I might look like a glamor doll. Once I take that bath, all comes off, eh? this is why the expert cant be impressed with show conditioned horses only, they prefer going through the pasture and study the herd and than make a selection and when it comes to mature studs, they want to see them under saddle.

In my opinion Australia always bred super performance horses, like your Brombies, and earned the respect wordwide by experts. Your original imports of SEs from England were also top horses and bred on well.

And! How did the Bedus ever produced such tough Arabians without testing?
this means we should not stray too far from the original creation, use common sense and breed a hrose which is usefull for decades.

Take care and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 9 2006, 05:15 PM
Post #83


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



Please Liz, try to follow my saying/thinking.

Of course not, because even when semen is split there is "that one Sperm" which would have been the one fertilizing the egg if bred naturally.

Another thing, if it is a gelding, you can not determe what he would have bred on, if he were a stud.

I often even have to smile, when I hear or read "This stallion has sillions of sperms under the micro, when it only takes "one" to fertilize.

And indeed there are exceptions to the rule. The horse IS NOT a multiple producer like a dog or other animals. I also feel that when we compete with nature or try to do better, we will fail. and havent we?

Just my opinion
Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Al Sahrae Arabia...
post Sep 9 2006, 09:55 PM
Post #84


Senior Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 251
Joined: 7-March 05
Member No.: 2278



QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 9 2006, 06:07 PM)
Dear Helen

If indeed Australia has a shortcoming on stallions, do you think it might be a good idea to import about a dozen young colts, selected by experts without biast,bring them up , test them and have a nucleus of fresh blood?

Also I feel, just because the horse comes from a well selfpromoted farm and owners, does not give you a guarantee of producing consistently excellent stock. another problem is, that the average person is getting so used to poorly moving hoses, still saying they are super movers, when this is not so.
Take care  and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
*


Hi Hansi

I am not going to harp on about this, but I can absolutely assure you that Australia is definitely very short on the gene pool. I am talking purely SE's. It is very hard to be selective and true to your breeding program here when there are so few stallions available to use.

Our breeding program is of course our personal preference and we are not breeding for fads. We have chosen all our mares carefully and have imported two mares and a colt because they have the blood I love and have some great new blood for here. However, breeding them here is very difficult. It is very difficult to find a stallion that we feel has to offer what we are looking for to add to our program and are actually at public stud. Don't get me wrong, there are some really beautiful stallions here, however many are similar related and of a similar gene pool . For our personal program we are trying to expand our gene pool. So far we have been lucky and are using a couple of stallions we feel compliment our program and lines.

Who do you suggest import these six colts?? Costing is not cheap, and besides all of that you suggest someone who isn't biast choose them. HOW?? Everyone has their own personal preference and of course this person will choose what they see as suitable. However, like anywhere there are differences of opinion. Australia may import six stallions who for our program and personal preference are not what we want so we don't use them.. Then what??? Does that mean our stud gets put down because we wouldn't use the stallions brought over.

Breeding is every studs personal preference. As is AI. I have a mare who is precious to us. She had a problem when she foaled and now we only do embryo transfers with her as we are not prepared to take the risk of loosing her. I would have thought that this was a sensible and compassionate thing to do.. She has alot to offer this country and felt that ET's were the way to go despite the added cost.

I think it is wrong to blame AI for problems, faults and mental issues in a horse. This can happen whether naturally bred or not. How many times have you seen breeders look at a foal and say that it is nothing like they expected!!! or where did that club foot, or week loin, or short fat neck come from... And you know what if you have a breeding failure don't repeat the mating and sell or give the foal away unregistered.

I think we need to accept that breeding is purely personal preference and leave it at that. If someone in Australia wishes to import semen, then I commend them. If people overseas offer to put their stallions into quarantine for longer so the semen can come to Australia then we thank you heaps.

Sorry if I have rambled, I feel very passionately about my horses and I think it is my right to choose the lines and styles and ways of breeding I want to.

Helen
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Eagleridge Arabian Farm_*
post Sep 10 2006, 12:47 AM
Post #85





Guests






QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 10 2006, 03:07 AM)
Dear Helen

I fully understand. I have studied and watched these AI hores for over 20 years and am petrified of it. What I noticed that suddenly detrimental faults pop up which are not in the pedigree of the horses or even the direct sires and dams. This refers to devided semen. Not only do I notice conformation faults, but also breeding problems, mental problems have popped up.

Take care  and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
*


Hi Hansi

I am interested know what data you have collected that proves your theory, has their been a study done? it would be interesting to find out if this is fact or just a passing observation.

We have bred many foals by AI, both frozen and chilled, and some of our best results have come from this kind of mating. I have seen no evidence of the problems you have described. Have you tried AI yourself with your own horses?

Just passing observations would not be enough evidence for me to basically cut my nose to spite my face. Hansi if you had access to Sameh semen would you not use it????

Kind Regards
Jenni
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liz Salmon
post Sep 10 2006, 12:11 PM
Post #86


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3894
Joined: 17-March 03
From: Texas USA
Member No.: 94



Having an Agricultural degree and studied the effects of A.I. in cattle, which has been going on for over 50 years, do we now see cows giving inferior milk, or beef cattle producing tough or ultra fatty meat for example ? I don't think so. The quality of milk has remained the same, but because of A.I. cows have produced more milk—believe me there has been a great deal of research on that one. The quality of beef has vastly improved in those 50 years.

I cannot imagine that A.I. in horses would have produced any differently than breeding naturally from inferior stallions. Small breeders were tending to keep their own stallions to avoid stud fees, which I had often observed resulted in some very poor foals. Proper and careful stallion selection is vital to any breed, coupled with choosing the best mares possible. Shipped semen has given breeders the opportunity to breed to the best available around the world. Faults popping up sometimes that are not necessarily in pedigrees, can be due to circumstances in utero or nutritional effects.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Suellen Taylor
post Sep 10 2006, 03:42 PM
Post #87


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1104
Joined: 24-October 03
From: Georgia..USA
Member No.: 902



Proper and careful stallion selection is vital to any breed, coupled with choosing the best mares possible. Shipped semen has given breeders the opportunity to breed to the best available around the world. Faults popping up sometimes that are not necessarily in pedigrees, can be due to circumstances in utero or nutritional effects.

AMEN! tongue.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 10 2006, 06:42 PM
Post #88


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



Dear Helen

We can talk all day about the subject. First of all which other breeds choses breeding stock for other than functioability? Australia imported many stallions on lease (TBs) from Ireland, top ones, and I have seen some before they left tom your country in Ireland.

the SEs chosen from the EAO and imported to the USA were quality, and very functional individuals. We brought two plane loads in, one with 24 the other with 34 head, belonging to numerous owners.And it was more expensive then, then it is now (airfreight etc).

I dont remember one having club feet, mutton whiters, tiny hoofs,etc.etc.
and all were excellent movers too. This continued in production until AI was used. Suddenly offspring no longer resembled their full sibblings bred naturally, etc.etc. and breeding and mental problems popped up to. Of course, such testing then was done under saddle, as far as stamina, courage, speed,staying power etc was concerned. So, were did these faults come from? It is not in the original genetic pedigree. surely, hundreds of horses with these problems cant be just fluks.

AI is used on cattle, swine,sheep etc, and we either eat what they produce, or eat them. Even in Cammels, they became eventually divided into milkers, woolers,for slaughter and racers. the latter the Arabs call "Asil" and they look different too, more classic, more refined, more exotic, their faces are dryer and more picant, at least those I have seen.

Is it not possible to get a group of your people together and share?
I would first look at the eAO, Albadeia and Hamdan Stables in Egypt, they
breed natural and have good stock. there could be others.
It costs money to start a sound breeding operation, then and now, but it costs this also with any other business. One says it usually takes five years before any business breaks even or shows a profit.

Donkeys and mules are also selectively bred, because they have to work all day long, at least by enlarge. These little donkeys carry huge loads and have to have sound structure to do it all. The horses used to do this also, but look what we got now. They breed from untested stallions, and at the end dont even know what a real good horse is like anymore.

the serenity horses still look as their imports some 40 yeas ago, all natural bred. We bred 13 mares this year, and all are infoal. We have about a 97percent production records during all these years too and dont produce
these faults mentioned. Look at our website, and you will see some. Many are endurance champions, and also halter champions. And the herd is uniform.

If the entire semen collection could be sent and given at one time only to a mare, I consider that equal to natural breeding. But divide it, and I call it a pupy mill, a hit and miss situation. No different to me than a dog having 12 puppies.

But as you said, each to its own to do what they please.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 10 2006, 06:54 PM
Post #89


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



Dear Jenni

"If I had access to Sameh's semen, would I Use it" Hell NO!!!!!
unless of course I get the entire collection.

We never used AI, I am afraid of it.I bought one mare infoal through AI. Result a beautiful filly turned into a georgeous mare. We bred her and when she foaled did not lose the placenta right away, and all sorts of inside problems were found. We ended up haing the uterus removed and today, 4 months and $ 15,000 vet bills later she is still not quite okay and needs daily attention. Anybody would have put her down, but knowing me, I try to save any life if at all possible. Once the mare is okay, she could make an excellent dressage or pleasure horse. As I said, she is a georgeous bay.

But I do know most of the original imports and many of the eAO/Albadeia/Hamdan horses and there were few problems that I know off at that time. Horses lived long too.
One of our stallion is almost 30, and the other 28, doing well. Our 20year olds look like ten. Each one worked hard and their legs are still glass clear and no other problems either. And they still breed.

Of couree, management has a lot to do with it as well.

So may be people should look at the production of our smaller breeders who bred by natural service, and if that SE looks like an arab and can fly,one should take another look.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Sep 10 2006, 07:03 PM
Post #90


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



Dear Liz

I appreciate what you saying, but degree or no degree, it was also determined that a bee cant fly, but she does, based on her build.

What you refer to we can eat, so should be eat the horses too?

I have seen many excellent offspring with smaller breeders, and it is imposibble also for you to see them all, or for me. But you havent even seen our horses, although in the area, visiting a farm who is not that long in breeding horses, with limited knowledge in testing horses, etc.
But it was a board member of the PS.

I dont know if you visited the Houseknechts downhere, who always bred good horses and both David and Paula are excellent horseman/woman and ride and train well. And there are others.

Of course time is always short and one can do only so much, which I understand.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

9 Pages V  « < 4 5 6 7 8 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd October 2014 - 08:39
This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.