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> Arabian Movement-your Opinion Please
HLM
post Jun 12 2003, 04:26 PM
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Dear readers

Origionally there was no particular name for "Movement" at the Egyptian Event. Then it became "Arabian Trot" and now it is "Arabian Movement". What next?

A person walked up to me at the Event and said" Now I know why they call it Arabian movement, these horses cant move". I did not reply.

the Arabians compete in open shows, and their movement is judged by how any horse should move in a walk, trot and canter,gallopp. Many of the arabians compete in dressage classes- open- and also here they compete successfully. They do not differ in racing, as QH, TB's etc either. So why have we created a terminology which puts fuel on those, who do not like Arabians in the first place? A walk is a walk, a trot a trot, a canter a canter and a gallop a gallop.

With this invented terminology are we not drawing particular attention to it making a new person automatically think, this is different then on any other equine? Has anybody ever heard "TB movement, Qhorse movement, Pony movement, Warmblood movement??? I have not.
Or in open classes "Arabian extended trot" Arabian Walk" etc.etc. Sounds kind of silly, or?
A horse is a horse is a horse.

May be it should just be named "Movement" leaving that "Arabian" infront out. what do you all think??

How can we induce other breeds to top breed with an arabian, and they might think we have movement no other horse has??? May be they get scared??? Or are they going to call such offspring" Warmblood with arabian movement??? Sounds even sillier, or?

I really like to hear all your opinions and/or suggestions.
Personally I feel, something has to give.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Guest_Caryn_*
post Jun 12 2003, 04:52 PM
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I feel there is definitely a distinct type of movement which is part of ARABIAN TYPE. It is the kind of movement which was developed to move quickly and efficiently over sand dunes, not the kind of movement needed to casually lope through valleys or to pull plows through fields, to provide a showy jaunt through the park, or to carry heavy pack over mountains. The movement of an Arabian should be directly related to the breed standard for Arabian conformation; it should be light and lofty in the front with significant fluid reach. The power and drive should come from the hind end...the horse should be pushing from the back not dragging from the front. While I agree that we can improve on the situation with legs, I came away with my biggest concerns relating to Arabian type/Arabian conformation/Arabian movement focused on the primarily angle and length of the shoulder. Mostly in the cases of youngsters, I was concerned to see a number of very straight, short shoulders and poor attachments of the neck to chest and to withers. If the shoulder is not long enough and well sloping, the horse cannot move freely forward with the front legs. Straight shoulders also often cause ewe necks, impeding proper collection and balance. In most cases, one can study the conformation of the horse and know before it takes a step, how well it is capable of moving according to proper "Arabian" breed standards. In my opinion, if the conformation comes very close to ideal breed standards, ideal breed movement is likely.

On a positive note, I felt there was considerable improvement in hip structure over entries from past years. By way of constructive criticism, I would love to see more attention shown to the shape and set of the neck, as opposed to so much focus on length, as well as improvement in the length and angle of the shoulder. I do think those who 'had it" showed it very nicely!
Caryn
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Stephanie
post Jun 12 2003, 05:04 PM
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Hi Hansi,

I agree with you. Movement is movement, no matter what breed the horse is.

I've met people who had visited many shows and only knew the Arabian through a silly class like "Arabian Movement". And I apoligise, but to me those classes are created by very ignorant people who call themselves horsepeople.

I've taken lots of people with me to visit shows to present them the versatile arabian. They were all astonished to see in which disciplines this breed can perform. Every time a so-called fan of another breed says something bad mad.gif about the Arab, I tell them to go and see Arab shows before speaking about things they don't know anything about.

Those silly classes at horseshows single out the Arabian horse as an animal which is only able to be beautiful and move a little. The organisers (of such shows) are a little at fault here too as they don't do anything to change this image. Lots should be done, little is done.

As I said before, I've seen many, I've ridden quite a few and I love ALL horses. But for me the Arabian is the most versatile horse around. That is my humble opinion and experience. There will be many other and different ones and I'm looking forward to reading these. biggrin.gif

Have a wonderfully warm evening, tongue.gif
Stephanie
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HLM
post Jun 12 2003, 05:40 PM
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Hi Stephany

I agree. In every breed are horses which move "airy"
but also some "clunky". It indeed depends on the conformation.
I always feel that the rearend is the most important one, which can excuse a lesser frontend. I have seen Arabians with decent hips but very poor gaskins. I have seen at the last Event Arabians which- yearlings/twoyear olds- had a chest as wide as a percheron, front legs flush against it sideways, and they could do only one thing "Paddle: I have never in my life seen such front ends. that "V" was totally absent. mmmm. I have also seen very flimpsy hocks, and that alone spells trouble with a big "T".

But also a lot has to do with proper exercise conditioning. Muscles have to be build up, provided of course such system exist in the first place on a horse.

We must also remember, that in the deserts, it is not only dunes, but more so rocks and lava, some rough terrain,
and some quite mountenous. There the sure footed Arab will excell, as many a soldier became appreciative of. And we also see those Arabs through the streets of Cairo, on raw asphalt, pulling humengous loads on those carts with horribly shoed feet. And when these trot, it's no different then any other horse trot. Then there are those who spent all day grinding grain, tied to a walker type
merry go round. There are others, who pull a Taxy type waggon, and also these show mainly a slow relaxed trot.
Mostly in "Movies" we see those arabs dashing through deep sand. For instance in the Emirates I saw grounds which were more or less like lightly graveled roads, had a lot of small stones in it and were quite solid.

But it is romantic, seeing those Arabs sprinting through the desert sands, I guess. It would make any layman drewl.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
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Guest_Caryn_*
post Jun 12 2003, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (Stephanie @ Jun 12 2003, 06:04 PM)
I've met people who had visited many shows and only knew the Arabian through a silly class like "Arabian Movement".  And I apoligise, but to me those classes are created by very ignorant people who call themselves horsepeople.

I'm not aware of classes at Arabian horse shows called (or devoted specifically to) "Arabian Movement". To the best of my knowledge, this is only one category of judging Halter classes within the American and Modified European systems. I would like to add that part of judging Arabian movement involves the manner in which the tail is carried. It should be held high and straight and arched away from the body. This too, is part of distinctive Arabian type as per breed standards.
Caryn
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Journey
post Jun 12 2003, 06:55 PM
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Caryn,

You said the following, "I feel there is definitely a distinct type of movement which is part of ARABIAN TYPE. It is the kind of movement which was developed to move quickly and efficiently over sand dunes, not the kind of movement needed to casually lope through valleys or to pull plows through fields, to provide a showy jaunt through the park, or to carry heavy pack over mountains. The movement of an Arabian should be directly related to the breed standard for Arabian conformation; it should be light and lofty in the front with significant fluid reach. The power and drive should come from the hind end...the horse should be pushing from the back not dragging from the front."

All I have to say is, YOU ARE RIGHT!! I agree with this statement 100%. Arabs do move differently because they are the ones who do go over sand dunes. You would have to move differently than other breeds, but that is not a bad thing. I love their movement!

Where I live they have an area you can go riding in. It is full of sand. I have taken my arabs out there and my morgan. I can tell you that the arabs move through it so effortless while the morgan is pounding through it. The morgan will be in a sweat while the arab doesn't even break a sweat. I love all my horses, but the arab is definately the one built to move through sand! they just glide across it.
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Lysette
post Jun 12 2003, 07:36 PM
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I suppose I have always appreciated the reference to "Arabian" movement as meaning that the height of the movement of the front legs will not be the standard by which movement is judged. I believe many Americans have heard the term "trot like Saddlebreds" used in reference to Arabians--often as a negative thing. (I have nothing against Saddlebreds and think they are beautiful horses, but I do not want my Arabians to look or move like them.) "Arabian" movement makes me think of gaits that are smooth, with good suspension, and would provide for a comfortable ride over long distances. It seems to me the idea of effeciency played into the development of the Arabian and a horse that could easily travel with little wasted motion would hold up better than one whose motion was "up and down." I do not want to see scores for "movement" to be based solely on how high the knees are raised when the horse trots!
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paelmchen
post Jun 12 2003, 07:41 PM
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Dear Breeder´s and Rider´s !

As Hansi said it right: A horse is a horse a horse a horse!

The Arabian is especially beautifull an intelligent, movement´s may vary a bit, but the physical basics are the same in all horse-races.

Walk, trot and canter, and in some special-races you have Tölt etc.

What I´ve seen in halter-show´s is this uptight trot, that makes every rider´s popo hurt so much, but this is not the horses fault!
Trainer´s make this poor horses so energized and scary. Why ???

In the horse-clinic, where my wife is working, the veterinary would diagnose back-problems, seeing horses trot like this !!
Rider´s primary lecture is to make horses relax, that is the only way to get real impulsion, make the back swing, asking your horse to move from the rear- end into the riders hand.

The only thing that makes Arabian-movements different,is the expression, and high-tail carriage !

Just a riders opinion.....

ciao roland palm

@Hansi !

I´ve sent you a private message, please check your inbox !
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Guest_Caryn_*
post Jun 12 2003, 07:56 PM
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Hi Journey,
That's a great example! Besides Arabians, I've also ridden and driven Morgans (one of my favorite breeds!), as well as American Saddlebreds and Quarter Horses, and each had a distinctively different way of going. While the tasks various breeds are given today certainly overlap, each seems to be especially suited for certain things closely related to the purpose for which they were originally designed. Although there are hard working Arabians on the streets of Cairo today who are used as beasts of burden, we all know that this is NOT what the Bedouins used them for, not what the royal Egyptian breeders sought them for, not how the breed was developed over thousands of years. Indeed, the Bedouins did not even their Arabians most of the time, but instead rode the camels and led the horses...saving them for battle.

Some may argue that contemporary Arabians of the Western Hemisphere seldom have to travel long distances through sand as their original ancestors did, and of course, they would be right. Nonetheless, this TYPE of movement is a hallmark of the breed, just as the beautiful head, graceful arched neck, high tail carriage and animated spirit are hallmarks of the breed. If we chose to ignore any of these, or to pick and choose which we feel are worthy of preservation, one by one we will eventually lose the distinguishing traits which set Arabians apart from all other equines. The Arabian horse should be a "floater", a distinctive style of movement which is not exactly the goal of a Saddlebred breeder! Unfortunately, the breed is sometimes influenced by those who came from other equine breeds and don't particularly cherish the original, authentic traits of the desertbred Arabian, -- but prefer to devolop a "new, modern" type of Arabian which combines their personal preferences of various breeds (spelled B-A-S-T-A-R-D-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N). wink.gif
Caryn
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post Jun 12 2003, 09:16 PM
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You know what would be really great? Can one of the members from the Middle East, for example, Princess Alia, Hassanin Al Nakeeb, Nasr Marei, Omar Sakr, Gulsun Sherif, Fatma Hamza, Chen Kendar, or Tzviah Idan share their perspectives on this term of "Arabian Movement"...can movement, as a direct result of life in the desert environment, continue to have predominance on horses many generations removed from desert living?
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Ladypurr
post Jun 12 2003, 09:40 PM
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Caryn,

Ditto! Touche and Right-On!

--Susan
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Guest_Caryn_*
post Jun 12 2003, 10:56 PM
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Hi Roland,
The ones that have the upright trots that make your "popo" hurt so much are the ones who LACK real Arabian movement. Have you ever ridden a Saddlebred? This is not a dressage type of horse. I took saddleseat equitation lessons on a Saddlebred many years ago, and while it was fun, I had a perpeteually pooped popo. wink.gif This type of movement (and wound-up behavior ) is what I'm referring to when I speak of the Saddlebred influence on Arabians. One of the other posters aptly cited the fact that the Arabian breed standard for movement does NOT require high knee action at the trot. The Saddlebred does. I think if you study horses that have that high knee action and lack fluid reach you will notice a direct relationship with the angle and length of the shoulder. Many very high-trotters tend to have a rather straight, shorter shoulder while the Arabian breed standard calls for a shoulder set at a 45 degree angle reaching well back to the withers (allowing more front end freedom and reach). Again, the relationship between breed standards for conformation and breed standards for movement and type.
Caryn
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Stephanie
post Jun 13 2003, 11:27 AM
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Hi Caryn,

I agree, this "Arabian Movement" is only one class of many. And I do also agree with you and others that Arabians do move differently if you compare them to other breeds.

Many people I have introduced to the breed had only seen them in classes like that and this wasn't on a specific show for the breed. I can't help nor change this fact. Many of these people had no idea the Arabian was capable of so much more. They had an image in their heads of, and I quote someone: "a garden ornament only ment to stand around and be pretty all day". And I've seen I'm not the only one that heard this comment. That's the general perception of the arabian and it's not easy to change until you get them to come along to shows and they see what Arabs are capable of.

I've ridden many different breeds and all of them had their pro's and con's. I liked all the horses I've met and ridden, even the Saddlebreds (allthough my popo hurt too after riding them).

This is no attack on anybody anywhere, it's a general perception of many people not accustomed to the Arabian Horse. Up to us, who do know a little more, to change this perception. Wouldn't it be nice to have a show, where you have a mix of halter classes, ridden classes and performance classes? There aren't many around like that and I think something like that would change the image of our "beautiful" Arabian.

My best regards,
Stephanie
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Guest_Caryn_*
post Jun 13 2003, 12:34 PM
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Hi Stephanie,
There's no question that the perception you've described is rather widespread amongst non-Arabian folk. If you read my posts in the "Laughing Stock" thread, you'll see that I fully recognize this. It will take time to overcome the misconceptions which began with the explosion of Egyptian Arabian popularity in the 1980s, where passive ownership and huge prices became the norm. One of my first SE mares was priced at $250,000 during that period (before I acquired her) and that was not unusual for a good Straight Egyptian mare! When you couple that kind of money with passive ownership (tax write-offs), it isn't hard to see why Halter became the primary and preferred means of promotion; less danger of injury, less training, less downtime in the breeding shed. These are not the kinds of conditions that exist today, at least not on a large scale. I believe that most informed SE breeders today realize that the best way to insure that their horses have good homes for the rest of their lives (which are relatively long) is to increase their overall marketability beyond Halter and breeding interests...which means saddle breaking and training them.

The Egyptian Event is a show which offers a good mix of Halter and Performance classes. The performance classes at the Egyptian Event are definitely growing, a very positive thing for everyone. I have found that horse people (in general) tend to be quite loyal to their own preferred breed and sometimes a bit closed minded about other breeds. Once a perception is formed, it is sometimes a bit of a challenge to change...but it is happening. The more personal exposure the general horse community has with beautiful, well behaved, talented Arabians the better. Thank you for being a good and active ambassador for the Arabian horse!
Caryn
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post Jun 13 2003, 12:49 PM
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For starters take those heavy shoes and pads off. Then keep their hooves at a normal length. Hard to believe those halter classes with those feet. Its very funny.
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