Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Arabian Horse - Under Saddle
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - Übersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2
Guest_Fredenslyst Arabians
Just thought I would post a few photos of arabian horses under saddle.
All photos are taken by Heidi Glisborg at the national show in Denmark 12-13 july 2003

Enjoy !

Fadjor - winner in western pleasure, all ages



Halim - winner in dressage



Rashid - winner in dressage
Guest_Fredenslyst Arabians
Shalom II - succesfull in dressage



Wagant - succesfull in dressage AND reserve stallion champion
Guest_Fredenslyst Arabians
Aki-Bell - succesfull in dressage



Milastica - succesfull in dressage (and now pregnant by Emfatyk)



ZA Finesseh - succesfull in showjumping
HLM
Hi Everybody

Beautiful photos, I am so happy to see you in the saddle and the horses doing well. You all are such a credit to our beloved Arabians. NEVER GIVE UP.

Rashid horse: tell your mama to take that noseband off, he is standing on his "head" to far behind. (STEHT AUF DEM kOPF)So are some others. I am beginning to wonder if that pressure on the nose might be too hard????? If you put the pressure on, than you must engage that motor in the rearend more and give a bit more infront. Such noseband is excellent for "Jumpers" "Hunters" in dressage, only in the most sensitive hands of an expert. It can act like a Bassal.Be careful. I think it is a "fad" looking good and may be not that good for certain attemps, and is IN STYLE, HA!.

Hope you dont mind me critizising a bit? I just want you all to succeed and win many ribbons. Speak to Roland (Paelmchen), he will be able to help you all.

you all just made my day. thanks folks

Hansi biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Sabine K
Be carefull with "taking the noseband off"!!!

Ask the judge first!!!

I got disqualified at another competition last weekend because of not using the noseband with the comment "she is not using a correct bridle!!!!"

I know what hansi means (my mare is more happier not having something around her mouth) - but you`ll never know if the judges accepting it!!
Andante1
I think they're lovely photos and the horses a credit to their riders - wish I looked that good - congratulations:-)

Hansi - is it that you want to see the horses noses more in front of the vertical?

I especially like the bright chestnut horse - probably because he reminds me a lot of one of mine - tell me, is he quite long in the back legs? I love the way he's working behind.

Lisa
NICOLE
I JUST WANTED TO ADD ANOTHER PICTURE. THIS IS MY BOY BAIOUMY (MAHROUS-RABAB) SHARKASSI OBEYAN WITH WHOM I JUST WON A NATIONAL FREE DRESSAGE COMPETITION LAST WEEKEND HERE IN EGYPT.
IT WAS JUST OUR SECOND COMPETITION EVER - WE ONLY STARTED COMPETING THIS YEAR AS THE ONLY ARABIEN STUDFARM IN EGYPT EVER COMPETTING.
WE LEFT SOME BIG WARMBLOODS BEHIND US biggrin.gif AND SHOWED THEM THAT ARABIENS ARE NOT ONLY PRETTY.
I HOPE THAT ALSO IN EGYPT THE RIDDEN ARABIENs BECOMES MORE IMPORTANT.

HANSI PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR OPINION.

THANKS
NICOLE
EL SHARBATLY FARM
www.elsharbatly.com
Hanna S
Hi!

I thought to add my 2 cents on this topic wink.gif Here's a photo of my arabian gelding Kiss of Fire (Kismet x Orient Night) and I warming up for the dressage phase of eventing competition June 21st 2003. We received our best ever result from the dressage test: 69,48%.

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
Hanna S
Hi again wink.gif

I don't know how to attach more than one photo, so here's another one of us in cross-country phase of an eventing competition June 7th 2003. We won the competition, eventhough it was our third ever eventing competition. Kisse loves the cross-country phase!

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
Hanna S
And the last one, taken again June 7th in cross-country. The photo is a little fuzzy as it was raining a bit.

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
HLM
I dont believe this, you mean the judges tell you what bridle to use??????????? who are these "knowledgable" judges??????
there are various nosebands, the dropped one (Hannover)
the english one- just one strand- and than this new invention of some years, nose and dropped. the inventor had a purpose for it, it was not just for looks etc.

I would have protested and ask for a written explantion. dont just let anybody tell you what to do, if you anyway go by the rules. Do the rules specify this particular noseband???? If yes, ask how they got them okayed. Asked them what their opinion is, it can or can not do. this is ludecrous my young friend. what next? A steel rod in it??? You are riding an "arab" not a "Percheron".

I use a dropped noseband, when I start a young horse, so that it concentrates on the "Bit". the arab has a much shorter jawl area (Laden) and a dropped noseband, if not applied properly, can restrict breathing. Wrong pressure- too much- on the nose will make a horse drop its head down, and often much behind the vertical. Boy o Boy, I am amazed.

ROLAND:
Can you help out here, what is your opinion, knowledge of this?

Have a nice day
Hansi
HLM
Good morning Lisa and all

No.104 -far over the bit- back cramped -(ruecken weggedrueckt)
105- cant see enough to judge
the steel grey underneith the photo of the one I can judge- stands on its head and is on the forehand
107- IS THE BEST- BUT COULD STILL BE ONE INCH MORE VERTICAL
THEY GREY underneith that photo- cant see enough to judge
12- way behind the vertical, rider leans too far back
122 behind the vertical.

NOW- can anybody please tell me why the HINDLEGS ARE bandaged???? again for LOOKS??? this is crazy.
At my time no horse's legs were allowed to be bandaged in competition. eh folks, dont prostitute "dressage" and make your horses look, if they had WEAK LEGS..
It's 2500 years old since Xenophone, and no-one yet has been able to improve upon it. Can you just see all those cavalry riders bandaging, while in action? the arabs have the best bones/tendons/ etc. So why bandage?????

you must always ask questions, when things dont make sense to you. THAT IS RULE NUMBER ONE.

Have a nice day
Hansi
paelmchen
Dear Nicole !

Congratulations !

My opinion:


Horse is very good, could have a little bit more neck-bending.
What you should train is your seat and hands.
Seat more in the balance point, hands more upright, like having two glasses full of champagne on a tablet.

ciao roland palm
HLM
Hi Nicole
that is a beautiful photo and horse well ridden, nose right were it should be.

One thing I like to critize. Please dont ever look to the inside of the horse, you colapse in your own hips, take pressure off your outside seatbone and wont be able to hold that rearend under control, as you might like. Always look right between its ears or if you have to, a bit to the outside. Remember its shoulder on shoulder, hip on hip, the latter you ride through ALWAYS.

cONGRATS TO YOUR SUCCESS.
Hansi
Liz Salmon
The rules here in the US say that you can use an ordinary cavesson, or a dropped noseband or a flash—a combination of the first two as shown in the above photos up to 4th level, when a double bridle is used, and can also be used at 3rd level. I too have always used a dropped noseband or flash with young horses, as it encourages them to accept the bit without any resistance. Provided the teeth are constantly checked at a young age—wolf teeth and sharp edges, it also helps during the teething period to avoid a fussy mouth. Wolf teeth should be removed before a horse is bitted anyway. Liz Salmon
paelmchen
Dear Hansi !

The thing with the uncorrect bridle....nonsense! I´d ask the judges to give me a report why !

I agree, 107 the best.
I don´t know why so many rider´s have their horses behind the vertical???
The bandages is just fashion, in my eyes there is no really need to have them.
I only use them in winter for warm-up.

ciao roland palm
HLM
Hi Hanna
Lovely Photo. Now, if you would only IST IN THE SADDLE, rather then ON TOP OF IT, YOU MIGHT SCORE MORE the next time.
Study this photo, study yourself, do it again for practice and then do it SITTING DEEP IN THAT SADDLE, and feel the difference, the power you now have to get that rearend where you want it, i.e. put every foot where you want it. so relax, relax, relax. Ride from the hip on down, through your hips and relax the upper body. this way your feet will also fall in the proper postion.
Namely heels deep down. it might help, if you practice without stirrups ever so often. Hope you dont mind me saying so?

wish you great success
Hansi

Hansi
Hanna S
Yes, you can use different kinds of nosebands, e.g. Hannoverian, flash or cavesson, but you can not leave the noseband off alltogether. I think Sabine stated that she left the noseband off, which is against the rules.

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
Hanna S
Hansi,

I don't mind at all you saying this! I know my weaknesses in my position, when I ride dressage and am practicing a lot to sit deeper and heels down. It is difficult, but I am making progress and taking weekly dressage lessons along with my weekly jumping lessons. Also I have taken lessons on a lounge line plus ride regularly without stirups. You should have seen me a few years back, I was much worse wink.gif I rode first 15 years only in jumping saddle and my main dicipline was show jumping, so it has taken lots of effort (and I have still a long way to go) to balance my seat in a dressage saddle with longer stirups.

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
Hanna S
Hi!

IMHO about the steel gray in the original posts. Although he is on forehand, I think this is acceptable as the horse seems to be young one (judging by the color and way of going) and he still seems well forward, straight and relaxed, which is in my opinion the first things you would require from a young horse. Also he has a good lenght on his neck. I hate to see young horses cramped in with too short neck to mimic self-carriage, so it is better to have them a little on the forehead with enough lenght of neck moving well forward than cramped in. Of course the ideal even with a young horse is that they carry themselves, but you can not always reach the ideal in every way and it is hard work for a young horse to go in self-carriage for long periods of times. So, you must make some compromises with them, before they develop all the muscles they need to always carry themselves. You must remember that this is just one photograph of one single moment, so at least in my eyes I can forgive being on the forehand as the other elements seem to be quite well in place with this rider/horse pair. Of course if this is older and more experienced horse than 4-6 yo, the case is different.

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
paelmchen
Hi Hanna !

That`s right, to leave it all off is against the rules.
I thought she used another one!

ciao roland palm
ALMASE
Tell us more about Wagant, looks like a really nice horse
Guest_Fredenslyst Arabians
Wagant is a 11 year old stallion who is doing very nice under saddle.
He is a beautifull horse, and was awarded a gold medal with 87,33 points. He also won the title of reserve champion stallion.

Wagant is by El Mokari (El Shaklan x Mohena) and out of Warissa (Joka-Tuam x Wahana).
He is bred by Pajb Arabians, Denmark, and owned by Brian Jensen, Denmark.
His young rider is Maika Nikolajsen.

Wagant is competing in dressage against horses of other breeds with great succes.

I saw him "live" for the first time at this show (national riding show 2003), and he looked very impressive. He has much power and graze. The dressage he showed was like a beautifull dance.
He moves nicely with long stride (hope this is the right words in english). And lift himself up.





HLM
thanks roland

I just hope that those dressage judges arent going to end up as our halter judges used to be and in part still are.

Please do check this out and ask them why it is mandotory, if it is. i takes an einstein beginner rider to properly, sensitively handle this nose pressure. No wonder all those horses stand on their head- stehen auf dem Kopf und rollen ein-

And those bandages, it should be forbidden to ride with these in a recognized show class. It is absolutely absurd.
what next, a sweatband around the neck and a tail bandage??? Boy o Boy. They will all look if they have gone through a bloody war covering up their wounds.

Please Roland, set this straight and please help those young ones understand, what we are talking about. they are our future.
And if the judges dont know any better, get ridd of them!!!!

this was I think in 1961. In came a dark brown TB with a white stocking on the near hind. Seunig said over the loudspeaker" Bandages are not allowed, entry leave the arena". We started smiling and the stewart came and said "But Mr Seunig, it is the horses's stocking". He was so embarresed, his sight was not that good anymore, and indeed it almost looked like a bandage, so well put on.

Have a nice day
Hansi
HLM
thanks Hanna, I already worried that may be I put my foot in again.

Glad you practice. I know, it is not easy, but you are doing okay so far.It's just a little bit of a correction, not that much. I guess I am just tooo particular, so please forgive me. I guess it's that old german strict upbringing, eh?

Taly Ho
Hansi
Hanna S
Hi Hansi!

It is forbidden to ride with bandages in a dressage class, but white bandages are often used in a warm up (they are taken off before entering the ring). One reason is to keep the legs clean for the class (especially if the horse has white shocks, they get easily dirty looking in the warm up), other reason is just for decoration, white bandages look nice with white saddle pad. Of course this is just a matter of taste.

I don't wear bandages on Kisse in dressage competitions, because taken them off brakes my concentration before my turn, but I don't mind people using them in the warm up. However, I use boots in the show jumping and cross country phases of eventing, because there you need to protect the legs from hits. Also I must admit that I use bandages that match the color of the saddle pad and my clothes in regular dressage training, there's no other reason for that except looking nice and neat wink.gif I guess I am a little vain, but there's no harm done to the horse if proper paddings are used underneath the bandages and they are applied correctly (not too tight).

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
HLM
good morning dear hanna and all

Very nice, very nice- the gallopping picture. Now please tell me have you ever looked at those gorgeoues 'Hunting Paintings" covering basically Tb hunters of the the 19th and 20th century? they usually cover hunts in England and Ireland. Does any of them wear "Banages/Boots,etc"
Now those hunts were rough, just like ours in Canada.

your horse wears boots front and behind, does this mean his legs are too fragile to survive without them? For that matter, any horse in dressage/etc?

Actually, to be honest with you, we used to like having our horses bump up against something here and there, it taught them to lift their "tooties" better the next time. Matter of fact many oldtimer jumpers used to put a pole, with small spikes in them standing up, so if the horse hits it, the next time it wont, and it did not injure him, other then giving him may be a small scratch, but it stung.
I always found that no matter what boots one puts on, it usually ended up rubbing some areas and creating friction. Anyway, think about it. I do believe however, that in the original training well fitted front splint boots can help,
until the horse gets a bit older and learns to use himself properly.

IN any case, it looks if you are doing great, on the road to great success. so keep on riding. Practice makes the master, it is said. At least you are in the saddle and both you and your fourlegged friend enjoys it. that matters so much.

Have a grat day and Taly Ho.

Hansi
HLM
Hi Hanna
Yes you are correct, of course the young horse will be on the forehand, but it still must not "roll in" (stand on it's head). It takes a while before the back muscles are developed properly, and great care must be taken.

Hansi
Sabine K
No I did not taken off the complete noseband - only the flash noseband from the ordinary one as my mare seems to accept the bit much better this way.
HLM
Hi Sabine
I suppose you mean by the "flash Noseband" the part which is like a dropped one?

Has anybody also noticed that the horses in the photos do not have a drop of saliver around the mouth? What does this tell us? Are they truly chewing on that bit? May be it is not shown well on the photos, so I can only assume, there is no saliver.

Hansi
Hanna S
Hi Hansi!

We must agree to disagree on the subject of boots wink.gif I don't think the legs get any more fragile with using boots/bandages and boots won't make the legs any stroger either, but what they do is prevent the horse from getting bloody cuts. Cross-country phase of eventing competition consists of solid jumps and very rough terrain with brushes and stones, small trails etc. When you advance with speed of maybe 450 to 500 meters/min, the horse does not have time to set his feet so that not to get any hits, no matter how well it lifts his feet.

100 years ago in hunts horses did not wear boots, but I think many things were quite different at the time and perhaps boots weren't even invented then. I doubt the veterinary checks were done before the hunts as they are now before every cross-country phase of eventing competition. If the horse has cuts on his legs, you are not allowed to even start in the cross-country. I could ask you, if you have seen an eventing horse without boots during cross-country? I haven't and I think there is a reason for it as you want the horse to last for many years of competitions.

Modern day boots won't cause any friction or rubbing, they are made from neoprene or other similar material and fitted so well that there's no rubbing at all. To be honest I think it is not fair for the horse to think that it should just learn where to put his feet no matter how difficult terrain the rider makes him go and no matter the speed. Also there are much better ways to teach the horse to lift his legs on the jumps than attaching spikes to the poles, which is called barring and strictly forbidden by FEI rules. I have seen horses that have been barred and yes they will certainly lift their legs on the jumps, but at the same time they will often get insecure and start fearing the jumps which leads to refusals. Also this method often leads to making the horse jump over his capacity, which again leads to refusals and insecurity. Jumping technique will also suffer of barring as the horse learns to jump too high, which is not the fastest way of getting over the jumps and also consumes more energy. The best jumpers jump only a few centimeters above the jump, just enough to clear it, which is the fastest way and also consumes less energy.

So, I will still continue to wear boots on my horses, they seem perfectly happy about it and their legs are clean from cuts smile.gif

Hanna, Kisse and Shaaga
http://www.geocities.com/sherafi
HLM
Hi Hanna

I understand and agree in part. At my time, our hunters wore no boots. the stonewalls were solid, so where the fences. I dont remember any cuts.

Yes, the spiked polls are vorbiden, and I never ever used them. We were taught other methods to make a horse jump and stay sound and unhurt. But I was told of them.

I have nothing against boots, provided they fit well, or bandages put on right. I have used them. I was just thinking of the beginners, to learn the difference.
There are so many types of bandages, and each one has a purposed.

I dont think that the English/Irish had any lesser hard terrain, than we in Canada- I mean 200 years ago for England/Ireland. I think they had even more grueling obstacles/terrain.

the 3-day eventing is no picnic, I know. But if a horse is well schooled in dressage, it is far more balanced,lighter, etc and indeed places its feet by enlarge selectively.
However, accidents can happen under any circumstances. a horse can even hurt himself in his stall, and you never find out on what really.

I think we are talking paralell, and again I thank you for your explanations.

Have a great day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Angela
How about Arabian show horses under saddle, for all those who constantly insist that they can't be ridden:






(Photos by Kerstin Anders - danke Moosi!!)

Davidoff (Kubinec x Nikita), international champion stallion, performance tested, is now being shown in his first competition year in dressage and jumping. At our 3rd show we made a 5th place in novice dressage (A) against over 20 warmbloods, and having lots of fun at the same time.... smile.gif
ALMASE
That's again a superb picture of a superb stallion Kerstin!

Below a picture of my own stallion, taken saturday evening - certainly no comparison to Davidoff but considering the abilities of this horse a year ago (nothing) he's already come along way. We're still mainly working on his condition rather than actual performance. Sorry about the quality but it was already getting dark and a lot of dust.
Angela
Hi Patrick,

your Mirage is a lovely stallion, what I like most is that he is always shown ridden by children. It all goes to show what makes the Arabian horse so special. I hope to see those girls at competitions with him one day! smile.gif

Greetings
HLM
Dear ######
thanks for the lovely photo. Now compare that with the other lovely one above. Here the horse has a normal english Noseband bridle and moves unafraid.. Yours has this awful double english/dropped one and although your horse goes on a lose rein, it already tries to prevent any future pressure/pain on the nose, and his head is behind the vertical. Mine would be too.

Now why dont anybody do this in themselves. Put a pressure something on your nose, then have some one pull on attached string or whatever, and feel what it feels like. this pressure sits directly on the very sensitive part of the nose.And those arabs dont have noses like a percheron. furthermore, it will now take quite a while before your horse trusts again. so please get rid of it.

Have a nice day and thank you for your post
Hansi unsure.gif
ALMASE
Tnx Angela,

Céline is quite a novice herself (those hands, heels, back, ..., grrrr) but she connects extremely well with him. In the beginning, they have fought out a combat during weeks with him giving in at the end and now they seem to understand each other quite well although she needs constant reminder that she's riding a stallion and not a pussy cat.

She's only 12 this year so a bit young to go to competition with a stallion - he's very gentle but I'm not sure if she can hold him if he would decide to take off so keep them in pasture and paddock for now - I hope to sent them both to a local club as of next year where they can train in group with warmbloods.

Below a few other pictures





ALMASE
Hansi,

I know - when I ride him, it's without but the girl doesn't have the same muscles yet to hold him - he took off with her once in the paddock (without noseband) and she couldn't hold him, he tried again later and there was no problem (with noseband). Meanwhile we're advanced again so maybe time to try again without.

Patrick

(below ridden without noseband - and a bit more weight as well ...)

Angela
Hi Hansi,

when you look at the picture of Patrick's horse closely, you can see that the noseband seems to be relatively loose, as the top part has slipped down somewhat. I don't think that his head is behind the vertical because of the noseband, but rather because he could do with a bit more impulsion from the rider's legs. But as Patrick said, she's working hard on it, I'm sure she'll manage allright! I especially like her light hands, she looks like a very sensitive rider - just right for Arabians.

I do agree with you about all kinds of drop nosebands though. I dislike all those nosebands which could restrict the breathing in any way, and only put a flash noseband on if I am correcting a horse who has developed bad habits (usually through heavy hands or a strong bit). I'm afraid that most competition riders you see not only use a flash noseband, but also do it up as tight as possible, so that the horse cannot possibly evade the bit... sad.gif How a horse is supposed to chew and salivate with his jaw bound up like that, beats me though!

One last reason for my preference of a simple cavesson (english) noseband is that it simply looks best on an Arabian horse! We don't need to hide our horses' heads, that's why I like to take bridles with narrow straps and small buckles, so as not to distract from the lovely Arabian head!

Many greetings
ALMASE
Angela,

You are right about the noseband. It is there in order that he can't evade the bit but it is loose enought to chew (he still manages to bit in Céline's behind with the double nooseband on)

Patrick
Liz Salmon
Hansi, both the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and the Andalusiian School of Equestrian Art in Jerez use dropped nosebands with snaffles on the young horses before they go into the double bridle. My trainer in England trained at the Spanish Riding School for 3 years, he always said that provided the teeth were checked frequently that prevention of a fussy mouth or resisting the bit is better than a cure. I have always used them on young horses when needed, and never had a problem. Everyone to his own. Liz Salmon
HLM
Hi Patrik

that is really a nice photo. the horse looks so happy, so does the rider.
Is that off rein twisted?

the explanation for the young one is fully understandable. she is doing great. But as others now can hear, what it can do. this unorxedoxed noseband for the more advanced is now properly explained. In the hands of an expert, I guess the horse will not roll in. But then an expert would hardly use it, or?

thanks for tha lovely photo showing beautiful Arabian Horse.

Hansi
HLM
HI Angela

Yes, you are right. the two photos of the wellridden horse- I cant see too well, if this horse is truly on the bit. It appears to move by memory. If a horse is on the bit correctly, and chews, there is always a bit of saliva
when a horse is on the bit, and that saliva is slightly grey, not white. sometimes photos are hard to judge. Sometimes people put a copper bit in the mouth, which indeed creates a lot of white saliva.

I use a drop noseband with the beginner horses, but
only as tight as I can get my two fingers underneith. that's how the Hannoveranische Cavalry school invented the drop noseband in the first place.

Have a great day
Hansi biggrin.gif
HLM
HI Liz

I did not know that the spanish accepts trainnees? that's wonderful

Liz, also I use the drop noseband on our young horses, but I DONT USE BOTH, english and dropped combined.
I was not speaking about the dropped noseband, but the pressure the combination noseband puts on and the obvious results. As some stated, some riders just use it for "show" and if this is true, what do their trainers say about that.

Have a nice day
Hansi rolleyes.gif
auridfarm
This is mine stallion Shamit (Kadour x Malyma by Amal)
He`s a multiple dressage champion and also a champion in halter

Auridfarm (Holland)
HLM
Hi auridfarm

I cant see your horse, cant download either.Can you help?
thanks
Hansi
ALMASE
How about some ridden pictures of today's famous Egyptians stallions????? Al Aadeed Al Shaqab, Asfour, Classic Shadwan, Madallan-Madheen ...
paelmchen
Dear Hansi !

It is usefull to take the English combination, the noseband not to strong tightened(2 fingers)the bit should be fixed.
Just like Davidoff on the photo.

If the horse chews correct it looks like that!
The photo is made during the warm-up phase, it is not so sharp, sorry.
We took some new ones two day´s ago,I`ll post them as soon as possible!



ciao roland palm
HLM
Dear Roland
In the hands of an expert all equipment they use will be handled correctly.

when the dropped noseband on that comination is tight, it will put extra pressure on the nose, with the result, that the horse will try to evade it, and stand on its head. that area of the nose is so sensitive, that even just beeing there, can irritate some horse. The english noseband functiones differently, and is not tight, and its weight distributed all around balances. Just my opinon.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
C_Ma
Kar Testo Rosso (German Elite Cup 2003)



Two danish arabians (can't remember the names)



-- Christina
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.