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Guest_Caryn Rogosky_*
QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 17 2006, 01:22 PM)
Dear Carol

In all due respect I disagree a bit with that classic type, as arabians are supposed to be. you will not find one Desertbred horse - true-blue desert bred- even closely resembling what is called classic type of today. You wont find Shepherd dogs in the past sitting on rabbit legs either.
(Please dont translate rabbit legs now with horses, I beg of you)

the classic type would actually be the "true Desert Bred" and what I see is far removed from it. The Model "T-" car produced by Ford is a "Classic".
Again far removed from our nowaday cars.

May be I misunderstand the terminology? there are so many types, but in my opinion it is the "silhouette" which recognizes the breed, not the head.

I got to get someone to come and help me post photos, so that you and others again can see "our type" which we think are very type, beautiful but also quite correct and bred for both, beauty and functioability. The latter is a must for me during these 40 years, being a rider and a connosoir. those people who come here and bought horses all are experienced horsemen/woman and appear to agree.
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


I agree that the BREED standard for an Arabian cannot be adequately reflected in one drawing, by one artist. The origin of the breed, which has been acknowledged to be the Bedouin bred horses of the Arabian peninsula, is inherently diverse in "style", while always recognizable as particular race. However, the EGYTPIAN ARABIAN is a very specific subset within this general pure desert bred category and history indicates that it has its own distinct prototype which may predate what we think of as the prototype of the Bedouin bred Arabian. While there are certainly many overlapping characteristics, in my opinion it is very important to preserve these two kinds on parallel but individual tracks. I believe that we must preserve the diversity of the breed by maintaining the variety of Bedouin bred "styles" within the pure desert bred population and we must also preserve the STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN ARABIAN as a true and distinctive kind of horse, referring to the most ancient Egyptian artifacts for inspiration.

I mentioned that I didn't have an opportunity to inspect Suhair closely enough to form an educated opinion on his legs, but I will say that from my vantage point I didn't notice any significant problems. What I do clearly recall thinking as I watched this stallion being presented was that he so strongly reflected the fabulous images of Egyptian Arabian stallions carved in stone and painted on the most ancient tombs of Egypt. I think that is something that we must always strive for in our Egyptian Event champions...which is, of course, all about EGYPTIAN ARABIANS.Caryn Rogosky
HLM
Dear Liz, yes I did mean it.

Let me explain, if you were factually to measure I want that forearm being long enough that the cannon bone above the ancle and below the knee fits at least 2,5 times into that forearm starting above the knee. At least ours do here, always have. Now the photo does not show this, so it is possibly extorted. I did see at least one, if not more, entries in the Stallion show case who had very short forearms. To me the forearm is important, its muscling and lenghth, its broadness, as it carries and with it protects the more sensity cannonbone/tendon areas front and behind. And I really do want those tendons clean, front and back, so that you could pull each one forward with your fingers, so to speak. Just cant stand those swimmy ones, indicating already problems, just like for the hocks.

Just like you, also I had the priviledge of riding many hores in my lifetime and quickly learned what certain conformation can do. this is why I dont like a table top line, when it is so hard to get that rearend under your seat, and you know yourself, if you dont have that rearend, you dont have the horse into control.

Now I need you to please explain to me. you said in some post that the cannon bone sometimes is half an inch too short. How do you determine this when factually not taking a measureing tape? I guess I misunderstood. Also the inch shorter of hip. But I am very critical when it comes to gaskins, width and depth.

I dont know if you agree, but what I saw and bothered me, was the extreme shallowness in many entries. Girth had the depth of the flanks, legs looked like tootpicks,. hoofs so tiny that it is scary, whithers no hight and no muscling packed on the side, conformation basically where the horse can not move, unless you put roller scates under it. Shoulders where sometimes the proper angel, but too short , so if the horse's front legs show way forward, they will come down way behind. I watched numerous ones walking when getting out of the ring, and only very few even overstepped the front inprint, when I want to see 12-18 inches at least. I am saying this, because that is all needed for success in numerous stress performances.

Most of all I cant find many a conformation fault of detriment in the pedigree of these horses. It is not there, so how come it is there now?
I also saw long necks- some too long and too thin, which I dont like as a rider-but not enough throatlash or a good windpipe.

When you read through the oldtimer books of how the conformation of breeding stock is discribed, factually taking measuring with a tape and the honest critical statements of the breeders, you can understand my critisizm of nowadays presentation and its judging thereof. Any judge who knows what they are doing, has to have a hard time. It is so hard to judge a poor class versa a good one. And I saw some classes where it appeared the horses all came out of one egg so uniform in their detrimental faults. what is anybody going to do with them? you might as well close your eyes and point iniminimo!
all in all it was most difficult for me to select some horses for what I feel they could do under stress and coming out well and sound.

Also the stallion show case truly disappointed me. In my quarantine were
Ibn Hafiza, Sakr, Soufian, Faleh, Ramses Fayek, Adhem, Zaghloul, Nashwan, Fawzan, Zaroukh, etc and I worked with them each day. I only saw a couple of stallions in the showcase which would remind me of these excellent imports conformationwise and typewise. And each one proofed themselfs, halter champions and performance champions, as did many of their offspring. Each was of a different type, i.e. Ibn Hafiza versa Ramses Fayek, Sakr versa Faleh, but all were unmistakenly Arabian horses. I just wonder if they were all together in a class, what they would get for "type", eh?

then take the difference between Sameh,Antar, Galal, Alaa El din, Nazeer,Mashhour, Seef, etc-and what does this tell us? All were proven stallions and before being used by the EAO in the breeding shed, they had to do well on the track, then sent to their depos in the desert to breed all sorts of country mares to determine what they produce. Only if satisfied, did the EAO bring them into their breeding shed.

The result of this professional and common sense testing created super offspring, many of which were exported to wherever. But I dont see much of this genetic power anymore, which makes me so sad. It's like day and night and this is why I use the term "Garden Ornament" because honestly I would not know what to do with some other then to look at. But remember also, these breeding farms, like in other countries had expert horsemen/stud managers, accomplished riders with sound judgment. Do we have this today? I dont think so by enlarge.
By golly, Lady Blunt was a horsewoman and a half.


I also feel, if we continue to whitewash for whatever reason, things will get worse and soon you wont have an SE anymore one can ride, other than those with many a small unknown breeder. I know one who is putting together that 800miles ride next year. Can you see any of the entries in there?

And to allothers, when some of us critisize, it has nothing to do with who owned or bred the horse, if it is friend or foe, but we hope to teach- to learn TO SEE, and then try to make improvements, if we want to.

Remember now, we can lead a horse to water, but cant make it drink.

Have grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms .
HLM
Dear Carol

thank you so much, you are so very kind. you say "My ideal Arabian" I say give me a horse I can ride from here to California without walking back, that's my ideal horse, and there are still many around which we do not see on the show grounds. I know, I have seen quite a few. and I have them here too, I mean conformation and attitudewise as well.

will try and let you know
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
CarolHMaginn
Okay Hansi - I would like to see a horse that meets your rigorous standards for conformation and type... Looking forward to photos...

Carol
Becca
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Jun 17 2006, 12:33 PM)
Here is a photo that I took of him at ground level and I walked all the way around him. IMO he has a lovely topline, good slope of shoulder, short back, level croup and long hip. I like his depth of heart girth, his clean throat latch and shape and set of his neck. He has long well muscled gaskins and large correctly angled and well let down hocks. He has long well muscled forearms and short cannons?maybe could be 1/2 inch shorter. His pasterns are correctly angled.

I did not see offset cannons, but he is slightly tied in below the knees?a fault I frequently see all over the world.His front feet are not quite a matched pair?another common fairly minor fault.  His tail is very well set and carried and he moves well, also having a good overstride at the walk. His head is well proportioned and typey, eyes large and small well set ears.

I see no reason to denigrate this lovely stallion, I could see myself riding him with a lot in front of the saddle.
*




Thank you Liz! Finally a photo that will help to sideline the more malicious gossips. I will never understand why some insist on describing a horse with traits he does not posess. surely they know that one glance/photo would reveal them as vicious at worst, maybe ignorant at best. Hopefully this will stop the more nasty talk.

with absolute releif,
Becca
HLM
Dear Carol

thank you again. First of all let me make myself very, very clear, all our serenity horses meet my standards, otherwise they being given away without papers. I have enough experiences to recognize the good from the bad.
Most of all my standards are measured also on my competitor breeders, like the master breeders in other nations, against which a number of Serenity horses have successfully competed.these breeders are my heros, my guideline. When I think of those absolutely outstanding horses we saw in Istanbule, it is my standard also. Unless you go and see the "Real horses" internationally it is hard to judge, which one can only do by comparison.

Example, Lutz Petersen just e-mailed me, stating tht Serenity Shaha (AK Shah Munifeh x Serenity Sharaa) again won a 50 miler, thats 3 out of four this yeAr won. This mare is very beautiful too, resembles a lot my imported Serenity Shahra, a hadbah enzahiyah. Not only this, the mare has the deadly lime dease, painful/hurting at times, so does Lutz. All her children under saddle also alread won in endurance races. she had 5 foals, started under saddle last year February and won her first race in August and going strong with no leg problems.

I am not saying that everybody should now pull their broodmares, train and ride 6 months later a race, but I am saying that at least the stallions should be of the quality to carry a rider, and not just around the block. what kind of testing is this anyway?

I just had a tevis cup rider buying two top mares from me INFOAL AS FOUNDATION BREEDING PROGRAM to produce offspring which can do something under saddle eventually when grown up.. I also let him ride Serenity Mujib (1993) (Serenity IbnKhofo x AK Munifeh) although he has not been under saddle for the past two years. the person loved the horse and I might just send him out to train for the Cup. I think he could do it well, is as agile as a mountain cat and very type too and verry correct, overstepping 18-20 inches in a walk.. His first son born here of this year, I consider par excellent out of Serenity Sharisa, my most favorite mare.

Now my young friend, if you like to come and visit, be our guest, I let you ride all our stallions for you to feel and judge.then compare this with others you rode or the promise unridden halter champions indicate. If you and I were to pick one from the EE classes, I know which one I pick instantly and I think so do you. We wont have a great selection, mind you.

I am certain, also you and others have very good SEs, but to know what they realy are, one has to TEST, trust me.!


I dont mean to brag I am only replying to you and dont want you to misunderstand.
I know darn well what the best breeders of top horseflesh in the world produce, and they are my guideline, and always will be.
Also, I have seen and watched the Houseknecht horses training, and saw excellent ones, which could any time compete against the best under saddle in stress performances. I guess that Polish Judge must have seen that too at the EE. But then Paula and David dont just breed good horses, they are also excellent riders and trainers. that does make a difference.

thanks again, I let you know and have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
CarolHMaginn
Great Hansi - thanks for taking the time to post so much info about the Serenity program, and accomplishments under saddle.

I am still excited about seeing a photo of one of the Champions your bred who meeting your criteria of the "ideal arabian" that some of us less experienced breeders should be breeding with an eye towards.

Again- if you need help posting I can help you, as I did for Judy Guess...

Thanks again,

Carol

QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 17 2006, 10:51 AM)
Dear Carol

thank you again. First of all let me make myself very, very clear, all our serenity horses meet my standards, otherwise they being given away without papers. I have enough experiences to recognize the good from the bad.
Most of all my standards are measured also on my competitor breeders, like the master breeders in other nations, against which a number of Serenity horses have successfully competed.these breeders are my heros, my guideline. When I think of those absolutely outstanding horses we saw in Istanbule, it is my standard also. Unless you go and see the "Real horses" internationally it is hard to judge, which one can only do by comparison.

Example, Lutz Petersen just e-mailed me, stating tht Serenity Shaha (AK Shah Munifeh x Serenity Sharaa) again won a 50 miler, thats 3 out of four this yeAr won. This mare is very beautiful too, resembles a lot my imported Serenity Shahra, a hadbah enzahiyah. Not only this, the mare has the deadly lime dease, painful/hurting at times, so does Lutz. All her children under saddle also alread won in endurance races. she had 5 foals, started under saddle last year February and won her first race in August and going strong with no leg problems.

I am not saying that everybody should now pull their broodmares, train and ride 6 months later a race, but I am saying that at least the stallions should be of the quality to carry a rider, and not just around the block. what kind of testing is this anyway?

I just had a tevis cup rider buying two top mares from me INFOAL AS FOUNDATION BREEDING PROGRAM to produce offspring which can do something under saddle eventually when grown up.. I also let him ride Serenity Mujib (1993) (Serenity IbnKhofo x AK Munifeh) although he has not been under saddle for the past two years. the person loved the horse and I might just send him out to train for the Cup. I think he could do it well, is as agile as a mountain cat and very type too and verry correct, overstepping 18-20 inches in a walk.. His first son born here of this year, I consider par excellent out of Serenity Sharisa, my most favorite mare.

Now my young friend, if you like to come and visit, be our guest, I let you ride all our stallions for you to feel and judge.then compare this with others you rode or the promise unridden halter champions indicate. If you and I were to pick one from the EE classes, I know which one I pick instantly and I think so do you. We wont have a great selection, mind you.

I am certain, also you and others have very good SEs, but to know what they realy are, one has to TEST, trust me.!
I dont mean to brag I am only replying to you and dont want you to misunderstand.
I know darn well what the best breeders of top horseflesh in the world produce, and they are my guideline, and always will be.
Also, I have seen and watched the Houseknecht horses training, and saw excellent ones, which could any time compete against the best under saddle in stress performances. I guess that Polish Judge must have seen that too at the EE. But then Paula and David dont just breed good horses, they are also excellent riders and trainers. that does make a difference.

thanks again, I let you know and have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*
Oliver
Thank you Liz for the photo and your observations. They are very helpful.

To all who only saw him from the stands or were not close enough
to see his legs propely, I can assure you it's IMPOSSIBLE to judge
a horse's legs from the distance or from a bad angle.
Maria
Dear Hansi,

I have been a rider of many different disciplines in my time. As a young rider I show jumped and 3 day evented for my dad who was a breeder of Hanovarians in Zambia, Central Africa.
I then went on to take my exams in teaching at Flyinge in Sweden. I worked for many different top riders in dressage,Jumping and 3 day eventing. I was initially employed by HE Sheikh Nawaf Bin Nasser Al Thani, Al Nasser Stud, as a rider.
I was to school and get ready 4 horses in 2 months for the first ever ridden class in Qatar, and so on.
Sh Nawaf is also a rider and therefore we are to back and ready horses for him to try as soon as they are mature enough. We would go for hours in the desert.
His late father Sh Nasser enjoyed racing, and a lot of the original horses from the farm were race horses.
However, endurance riding for him is like waving a red flag to a bull.
He also feels that in order to do something really good you need to concentrate on one thing.
How many horses actually make the grade for endurance?
I only know what happens in the Middle East, out of 100 starters only around 20 horses even get to finish. Majority of these horses are imported from Australia, America and France as endurance horses.
How many of those endurance horses can you put in the show ring with 20`s for type, head and neck?

I am also curious to see some pictures of your perfect horse.

Maria
HLM
Dear Maria

Please do NOT INSULT ME, i DONT HAVE A PERFECT HORSE, NOBODY DOES, AND NEVeR CLAIMED I HAD ONE.

If only twenty come through from some 100 entries, it tells you exactly what you have. I understand you meant the others broke down? If they did not break down, it is still a good sign that they can handle distances and stress work. One does not have to always win to have the better horse, luck often plays a role in it too. the best horse on earth can stumble and break a leg, even in a stall.

Now think of the wars, the cavalery, what would happen to them if 80 horses out of a 100 break down? How many of the Bedu raiders's horses broke down? (I dont know the answer to my last question, so you tell me.

What we breeders are after is stamina, heart, courage, attitude and proper conformation to be functionl and giving the rider a good ride through a balanced horse. I have horses here when they trott, some other have to canter to keep up. So we are looking for "Stride".
But we are also looking for a good dispostion, a horse without vices.

I seem to ruffle some hair here, and that is sad. We elders are desperately trying to knock some sense into the SE programs, going by experiences, knowledge and knowing many of the horses in the pedigrees (ancestors) in the flesh. all horses have a function, and no other breed has only one namely to look beautiful. this is so ridiculous, so unacceptable to any horseman/woman in the world. What will our young generation end up with, twolegged garden ornaments? So please young Lady let us be reasonable. Nobody can only breed Kentucky Derby winners, but running in such company makes the others also good horses.

We used to have our own race track with starting gate. Every colt 3 years and up was tested on it, the recovery rate, the staying power, the behavior.
Not all were alike, not all could or would win either, but they were still formidable competitors one had to reckon with.

But may others of our smaller breeders have such too.some ride these SEs through the Rocky mountens daily in some 9000 feet altitude. The western US of Montana, UTah, Colorado has some excellent Arabians. Van Fleet used to ride cattle (herding them) all day long with Zarif and at night played Polo, never changing horses. Babson had all his stallions under saddle or infront of a cart. Many of the Babson horses -SEs) still todate excell in stress performance. The Pritzlaf horses are forever mentioned to me by long distance endurance riders and how they respect them.

However, one does not have to ride endurance all the time, one can test such even at home if you have a bit of land.You can trott and gallopp them out for a few hours and see what happens. You can check their heart rate, etc to be guided.

So all these excuses are indeed excuses for helping the SEs deteriate
into mental and physical retards, bored to death, hankering to get out and do something, anything to change a boring routine. Believe me, I feel so sorry for these horses, because I love them all, know how they feel and think, putting myself into their prison type position. Now if all this is "Love" you can keep it. It is a selfish, arrogant, ignorant attitude some people show off with what they are doing, in MY OPINION. These folks are no asset to our beloved breed, they are a liability, and I really dont care if this covers the King of China. Respect my dear has to be earned, with anything, for what it has been designed for.

Now my dear, no hard feelings, just look at other nation's master breeders and what they do for centuries. That includes the SEs and Asils. And many an SE people have not heard off could compete against successfully.

Have a wonderful day and keep on riding, testing and thinking

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Maria
Dear Hansi,

I am so sorry I upset you, and I definately did not mean to insult you.
I sometimes have a problem expressing in words what i am thinking. Again I am sorry.

I also did tell you that I am a great believer in riding horses, so is Sh Nawaf.
We were the first farm in Qatar to enter ridden classes, and he does enjoy riding with me for several hours out in the desert behind Al Nasser Stud at trot and canter.
However, endurance is not his thing.
The 100 horses that start in endurance are Not what I have, we never enter endurance rides.
I am flattered you would call me a young lady though.

Again Hansi, I am sorry I came across wrong. I admire you and all your experience with Arabian horses.
Maria
HLM
biggrin.gif Dear Maria

No problem "I forgive you" biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

what you are telling me is so wonderful. I wish I be there, always wanting to ride through the desert I love.

We sent Serenity Le Khofo over to the UAE and he started training in the
big desert sands. Hiw trainer said to me" I never had such balanced and long striding horse under me". Result his owner build a special training place at his farm, and Bill and I cant wait to see it. Bill will take another six horses of ours (5) one we did not breed-over in October, all real goods ones.

you see "young lady" I always sell into riding hands or those who have the staff who will train and ride, and I mean "Ride" not that noodling around the yeard. Cant do otherwise to my so very much beloeved four legged children, ha.
they gave me so much during these 40 years and I have to return to them just a little bit. O if people only knew what God gave us to ride these incredible creatures, to breed good ones and have them near us. I have been blessed.

I am hearing a lot about SE breeders in the Regions, including Qatar. The TB/and Arab trainers sometimes dont think too much of some, meaning how horses are utilized.

do you know Darryl Duncan and his wife? I just met him after he being 16 years in Quatar building up a tremendous stable and racing program- flat racing- at the EE.
I know him since 1978- he was Nodoroma's manager and trainer here in Ocala, and truly outstanding horseman and trainer, wonderful human being, reputable and dead honest. His wife is a veterinarian. Apparently they are back here in the USA. I heard quite a bit from him, the beautiful country, desert and people and of course horses.

I will be going to Damascus to the WAHO meeting and am chumping on my bit to see those Asil Horses, knowing that 99,99 perent of their ancestors are in the SE pedigrees. I feel certain, I wont be seeing any two legged garden ornaments.

Now you take good care, keep on going, going, going until the last breath.
And thanks for your nice reply. Hug your hroses from me please

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
This thread is very interesting to me, as I am not in the business of breeding Arabian horses. But if I were to buy, I am the customer of the breeders that the Big Breeders sell foundation stock to. I would buy the end product - a horse to RIDE. To me, a horse needs good legs and conformation so it won't break down, so it won't trip and fall while riding. I don't want it to go lame on me. It is pretty expensive to support a pasture ornament. And God forbid, if circumstances ever took place that I had to sell my horse then I want to give it every chance to go to a good home by choosing a horse that has legs good enough not to break down.

To arrive at these qualities, I have a suggestion for Arabian horse shows. Currently the European shows judge on three seperate things I believe - legs, type, and movement? Or is it something else. What I would like to propose is this:

1. Entire class is judged on type - how much the horse looks like an Arabian. The top half of the class can go on to:

2. Conformation - how well the horse is put together, how little defects the horse has. Again, the top half of the class goes on to:

3. Legs and movement. The horses judged strictly and ONLY on legs. The horse with the least amount of faults wins.

To me, this makes a lot more sense than the present judging system. We start with the most beautiful, and end with the best legs. You can't lose.
Guest
We have now established that at least half of Anne's observations were correct. This horse is tied in below the knee it is as plain as day in this photo, this is a bad fault not a minor fault.

At a guess if Anne was correct in this observaaation I would imagine she was correct in her other observation

All of you crucified Anne for her making her thoughts known, I agree she should not have mentioned or singled out any horses, but she did, I think to deny that this horse has legs problems is to bury your head in the sand.

I agree he is pretty neat everywhere else although I agree with Hansi his forearms look to short in this photo. Yep judging is to judge the whole package and some people can forgive leg faults others cannot

Best we all agree to disagree and leave this poor horse alone now.
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
From a photographers point of view it is very easy to distort perspective, you can not really judge whether the canons and forearms are too long to short etc from these photos posted.

IMO opinion it is very unfair to make judgement on this horses legs when conformation photos have not been offered or posted, and more importantly so, when the owners did not ask for an appraisal. mad.gif

Please everyone remember the old saying "There by the Grace of God go I"

Kind Regard
Jenni



,
Arabs4ever
Jenni I dont agree when you show horses then you are really asking for everyones opinion there is no difference on this forum.

I wouldnt want my horse appraised so I dont show it, it is not good enough, I think this thread has been about learning and discussing what makes a good show horse and what doesnt, or what the judges are looking for

cheers
Gail
CarolHMaginn
Suhail is a beautiful horse. He has undeniable exotic type. While he has faults like any other horse, none of his detractors has posted a single photo of a better horse with equivalent type and more correct conformation despite many repeated requests for such a photo. The detractors claim their goal was to educate all of us, however - without something better to compare to for all of us to see - there is not education - only knocking a particular horse... Honest education would include not just "This is not an example of good conformation and type, but also here IS an example of the "ideal horse". We never got the second part of that component which is critical.

I continue to look forward to seeing this photo. If none is supplied, I can only assume that the goal here was not really education, but rather to tear down someone else's horse - for self gratification or just general pontificating.
heidip
Al Adeed is a far better horse.just as exotic with better legs JMO
HLM
Dear Carol

Are you serious?

When a horse wins a championship it appears to be open game.Personally I wonder how many extra type points it tooks to win in any of the halter classes.

May be at the next show we should have two sportshorse judges judge and one Arabian judge for type.

the real answer would be to give equal points for all subjects.

By the way, I dont :sit: in the grandstand, I usually stand at the end and can see a lot of the conformation, especially when the horses are relaxed and not stood up. to me that is anyway the best way to check a horse over, not stood up,pressure on the spine, etc.etc. with the nose into the sky.

Have a nice evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.



PTW Carol,. until I send those photos,if I ever get around to it, why not look at our website, it will give you some idea.
Had I seen you at the event I would have given you some broshures of some of the horses.
CarolHMaginn
Heidi,

I've watched people knock this horse and say he didn't deserve the championship for days now, and not a single one of them has posted a photo of a horse THEY have bred who is better. That is what I'm asking for... Perhaps they might have bred a horse with better legs, or a better croup or whatever. But what I've observed (SO FAR) is that they breed a horse with a nice body, but usually with a plain head that doesn't look like my ideal arabian - in fact it kind of looks more like a warmbood head - which is definitely NOT what I want to see in an Arabian.

I like a beautiful well conformed horse with a great body and exotic type. Granted that isn't what you begin with in your breeding program when you are just beginning, but that is the end goal. After 20 years of breeding or more - I would hope that some of these knockers could produce a horse with the "whole package" - such as an "Al Adeed" - not just one with a great body, great legs, and a very straight profiled head. THAT to me is not the "ideal arabian". And if they can't accomplish this - thats fine - not everyone is so fortunate to accomplish this. But what gets me is that these people have the nerve to pick apart a horse when so far as I have seen they themselves have not been able to accomplish or breed the horse they act like they have in the barn at home.


To me you can't knock others for not meeting the end goal - when you yourself have also not produced the ideal arabian.

Now if any one of them posts a photo of a horse THEY have bred which is as good as Al Adeed - I will happily eat crow with a smile on my face... It wouldn't be the first time and I'm getting good at it!

Carol
heidip



:DHint Carol the first ones name begins with Serenity.I'm not defending Hansi but she has bred some wonderful horses. Next year bay filly's ammi class?
CarolHMaginn
Hansi,

I've looked at your website. From the photos it appears that you put alot of emphasis on bodies and legs with is critical of course, but I didn't see any heads such as Suhail or Al Adeed. I want your horses bodies and legs with the heads of either Suhail, Al Adeed, or Farid Nile Moon. The closest horse I could find that you bred that I thought had the most of all the attributes I like was named Serenity Habib - who looked to be very pretty and substantial, but I really couldn't tell anything as it was an artistic photo rather than a "conformation shot" so I couldn't tell what the rest of him looked lilke. I almost feel like you do not value the exotic head at all. Do you not want "the whole package"? I just can't swallow a plain head in my vision of my "ideal horse", just as I really can't swallow a bad croup. And by the way - I'm not knocking your horses - many of mine are double, triple and quadruple Sameh - which I think you base alot of your program on. But I still want that gorgeous face to go with that gorgeous body.

The reason that this whole tread gets me is that:

1) I don't like to see the innocent owners of Suhail hurt and I feel the need to defend those who are trod on.

2) I do not want to see people being fed this informatiion that it is "good enough" for a horse to be ridable and having a nice body at the expense of the gorgeous arabian head... I want an arabian to look like an arabian - with a nice big dished face - as dishy as possible. I want little ears and giant black eyes and nostrils. To me without that - you may as well be riding an anglo arab. Nothing against the anglo arabs - they also have a function in life, but I don't want the direction of the arabian to go down that path. Even worse I don't want them to look more like a half arabian. And finally - the horse must exhibit the Arabian spirit and be very full of fire...

Thanks for listening.. And by the way - I know you have been around longer than I have, and know more than I do, but this is how I feel - so I feel like I should be able to express it. I do not want to tick you off. If anything I wish to convince you that a horse without type is just not the whole package... But perhpas we just have different "ideals"

Carol


QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 17 2006, 07:00 PM)
Dear Carol

Are you serious?

When a horse wins a championship it appears to be open game.Personally I wonder how many extra type points it tooks to win in any of the halter classes.

May be at the next show we should have  two sportshorse judges judge and one Arabian judge for type.

the real answer would be to give equal points for all subjects.

By the way, I dont :sit: in the grandstand, I usually stand at the end and can see a lot of the conformation, especially when the horses are relaxed and not stood up. to me that is anyway the best way to check a horse over, not stood up,pressure on the spine, etc.etc. with the nose into the sky.

Have a nice evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
PTW Carol,. until I send those photos,if I ever get around to it, why not look at our website, it will give you some idea.
Had I seen you at the event I would have given you some broshures of some of the horses.
*
CarolHMaginn
Hansi,

I've looked at your website. From the photos it appears that you put alot of emphasis on bodies and legs with is critical of course, but I didn't see any heads such as Suhail or Al Adeed. I want your horses bodies and legs with the heads of either Suhail, Al Adeed, or Farid Nile Moon. The closest horse I could find that you bred that I thought had the most of all the attributes I like was named Serenity Habib - who looked to be very pretty and substantial, but I really couldn't tell anything as it was an artistic photo rather than a "conformation shot" so I couldn't tell what the rest of him looked lilke. I almost feel like you do not value the exotic head at all. Do you not want "the whole package"? I just can't swallow a plain head in my vision of my "ideal horse", just as I really can't swallow a bad croup. And by the way - I'm not knocking your horses - many of mine are double, triple and quadruple Sameh - which I think you base alot of your program on. But I still want that gorgeous face to go with that gorgeous body.

The reason that this whole tread gets me is that:

1) I don't like to see the innocent owners of Suhail hurt and I feel the need to defend those who are trod on.

2) I do not want to see people being fed this informatiion that it is "good enough" for a horse to be ridable and having a nice body at the expense of the gorgeous arabian head... I want an arabian to look like an arabian - with a nice big dished face - as dishy as possible. I want little ears and giant black eyes and nostrils. To me without that - you may as well be riding an anglo arab. Nothing against the anglo arabs - they also have a function in life, but I don't want the direction of the arabian to go down that path. Even worse I don't want them to look more like a half arabian. And finally - the horse must exhibit the Arabian spirit and be very full of fire...

Thanks for listening.. And by the way - I know you have been around longer than I have, and know more than I do, but this is how I feel - so I feel like I should be able to express it. I do not want to tick you off. If anything I wish to convince you that a horse without type is just not the whole package... But perhpas we just have different "ideals"

Carol


QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 17 2006, 07:00 PM)
Dear Carol

Are you serious?

When a horse wins a championship it appears to be open game.Personally I wonder how many extra type points it tooks to win in any of the halter classes.

May be at the next show we should have  two sportshorse judges judge and one Arabian judge for type.

the real answer would be to give equal points for all subjects.

By the way, I dont :sit: in the grandstand, I usually stand at the end and can see a lot of the conformation, especially when the horses are relaxed and not stood up. to me that is anyway the best way to check a horse over, not stood up,pressure on the spine, etc.etc. with the nose into the sky.

Have a nice evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
PTW Carol,. until I send those photos,if I ever get around to it, why not look at our website, it will give you some idea.
Had I seen you at the event I would have given you some broshures of some of the horses.
*
CarolHMaginn
Heidi,

I've watched people knock this horse and say he didn't deserve the championship for days now, and not a single one of them has posted a photo of a horse THEY have bred who is better. That is what I'm asking for... Perhaps they might have bred a horse with better legs, or a better croup or whatever. But what I've observed (SO FAR) is that they breed a horse with a nice body, but usually with a plain head that doesn't look like my ideal arabian - in fact it kind of looks more like a warmbood head - which is definitely NOT what I want to see in an Arabian.

I like a beautiful well conformed horse with a great body and exotic type. Granted that isn't what you begin with in your breeding program when you are just beginning, but that is the end goal. After 20 years of breeding or more - I would hope that some of these knockers could produce a horse with the "whole package" - such as an "Al Adeed" - not just one with a great body, great legs, and a very straight profiled head. THAT to me is not the "ideal arabian". And if they can't accomplish this - thats fine - not everyone is so fortunate to accomplish this. But what gets me is that these people have the nerve to pick apart a horse when so far as I have seen they themselves have not been able to accomplish or breed the horse they act like they have in the barn at home.


To me you can't knock others for not meeting the end goal - when you yourself have also not produced the ideal arabian.

Now if any one of them posts a photo of a horse THEY have bred which is as good as Al Adeed - I will happily eat crow with a smile on my face... It wouldn't be the first time and I'm getting good at it!

Carol
CarolHMaginn
Heidi,

From this photo, all I can say is that Serenity Sharaf has excellent movement and propulsion from his rear. I don't think its a good photo to judge his length or thickness of neck, the quality of his throatlatch, the flatness of his croup or the depth of his hip. Also can't tell anything about his legs since they are in motion. Would need a standing shot for that.

Carol

QUOTE (heidip @ Jun 17 2006, 07:24 PM)
heidip
But as a respected person in the Se comunity you can't keep saying how great this horse is when his faults are obvious. Great head and neck for sure.He does have long cannons and up right pasturns and a short hip. That doesn't make him bad, but not perfect either THE BEST HORSE IN HIS CLASS ON THAT DAY. rolleyes.gif
CarolHMaginn
Heidi,

This is what I said about Suhail:

"Suhail is a beautiful horse. He has undeniable exotic type. While he has faults like any other horse, none of his detractors has posted a single photo of a better horse with equivalent type and more correct conformation despite many repeated requests for such a photo."

I didn't say the horse didn't have faults... He absolutely does as do all horses. But in my opinion - I don't think we should throw out the exotic type as we throw out the horse's faults. I would say that is throwing out the baby with the bath water.

And I also said somewhere in this thread that that horse is not always equal to the sum of its individual parts - that sometimes you need to look at the overall picture and decide if this horse has a contribution to make in your program. In my opinon this horse has much to contribute to our programs . Many of us are seeking exotic type in our programs - myself included. I have some great mares with excellent bodies, legs and so on. I'll give you a great example - I will use my own program to tell you where I'm going with it. I have a lovely mare. She has an excellent body, legs, croup, tail carriage, etc.. I could go on and on...In fact she has been an EE Reserve Supreme Champion Mare and a Regional winner in both halter and performance. What does she need help with for her babies? She needs more exotic type. So would I consider Suhail for her? Yes I would. He is not perfect no - but he does have the one thing I'd like to infuse into the genes of this particular mare.

I just think we can't throw out a whole horse due to some flaws - if they have some great assets that we really need for our mares. I would look at all the stallions available and I wouldn't discount one with a superior head and neck - if the other flaws were tolerable to me... Now I don't know if the flaws that Suhail has would negatively impact the resulting foal, but heck - so much of breeding is a gamble - I certainly think it would be worth a try.

I am sure there are many of us out there who have bred the best to the best -and the resulting foal was not what was expected. There is no perfect formula to breeding, and so I think its worth trying new things have have a good chance of working...

Heidi - as far as being well - respected in the EE community - please don't think of me in this way - think of me as a young (okay a newer breeder since I'm not that young anymore) breeder just trying to reach my goals... When I have been breeding horses for 20 years - then I would feel more comfortable with that status.

My message is simply that I personally feel that we cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater... You can look at many older programs who have failed to reach their goals because the were less than open minded about trying new things...

One time Judi Forbis explained to me that often the thing that you need the most in your program is the thing you swear you would never use....

I don't think we can progress without trying new things - to take the "next step...

I like sharing our thoughts about breeding on this forum - though I know we often may not all agree. Perhaps together we can unlock the keys to our successes.
Anne-Louise
Deleted - decided it is probably best not to add anything more.
heidip
blink.gif
CarolHMaginn
Heidi,

One more thing - obviously you know that I respect your opinion as a breeder and do also like your horses - so please know that I was just replying to you. I feel very good about and always enjoy having good constructive discussion with you. And I appreciate you questions of me - they do make me think...

And I'd love to show with you in the Bay Ammi class - is there really such a class? I hope I get up to visit with you this year - your region sure seems to have some terrific horses - most owned by small breeders too!

Carol
heidip
No bay Ammi class Carol. but we both have bay filly's for the ammi class next year.
CarolHMaginn
Heidi we are going to have a blast!!! I can't wait for that class!!! I am also hoping that Nancy Pierce, and Candi Weeks will be bringing horses they bred as we would like to enter a "Get of Sire Class". We all have baby siblings with stars...

Would you like to see our potential entrees? I'll email them to you..

Carol
heidip
I sure would
Steve Diamond
Dear Hansi,

I have sat back and watched you be very insulting, demeaning and cruel to many people here. This is absolutely uncalled for. If you are trying to teach people something I think you need to get a better approach. I see you dissecting a stallion that once again does not have a thing to do with you or your breeding program. Did you see his halter class? Did you see his competition? I did. I thought he deserved to win his class. He was well conditioned and superbly shown. So we have some people screaming about his legs? There were three judges that scored him in each category including legs and he still came out on top! It is a horse show and you have to keep it in perspective. I would think after all these years of being around horses you might have learned a bit more on evaluating them. I know your background was in warm bloods but these are "Arabian" horses. First and foremost you must know that every doughnut has a hole. If you can always compare horses to cars then for arguments sake I can use a doughnut. This is a perfect example of how negative you can be. I think everyone here has agreed that this horse has extreme type. overall. An exquisite head but has anyone mentioned that he has a tremendous heart girth! He has a good spring of rib (Which we are losing) A nice deep hip, A very well laid back shoulder and his legs are set properly on all four corners. So as Tom McNair would have said "What in the Sam Hill is your problem!" Carol Chapman gave me some good advice I would like to share with you on evaluating horses. She told me to ALWAYS first look for what was right with the horse!
It is very easy for people to find the faults without appreciating the good points. This also puts you in a positive frame of mind when you are evaluating a horse instead of a negative. I prefer to deal with positive attitudes. A second thing I remember her telling me was what Mr.Gerald Donahue used to say about questionable leg faults. That is he would look the horse up and down and round and round and then he say "They must be pretty good legs as they seem to hold him up!"

I have seen over the past 40+ years of raising horses all sorts of leg faults and have learned not to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. I have seen a stallion with off set cannons and pasterns facing east and west bred to a mare with the exact same problem and the foal come out with text book perfect legs! I have seen leg problems caused by improper shoeing and trimming and also I have seen leg problems from foals laying wrong during gestation. Such as windswept legs etc.

Bazy Tankersly one of our treasures said in her 60+ years of breeding she learned about legs in her program. She once owned the great *Silver Vanity in partnership. He was a glorious and remarkable horse of extreme quality and type. However he had a leg problem in that he was sickle hocked. Some of he foals had it and some did not, so she decided as much as she liked him she would rid her program of the blood. About 40 years later she kept seeing certain horses she really admired and were very well conformed. To her dismay they all went to *Silver Vanity. She then started reincorporating the blood back into her heard and said she had learned that no leg fault was enough to throw out the whole picture. She said she had learned that the foals sired by *Silver Vanity that did not have the sickle hocks did not produce the problem yet maintained her desired type. So I thought I would share this with you also as you must always evaluate the "Whole Picture"!!!

If you are going to go into the fact that he is going to break down in training then you are full of it. If we are going to talk about leg faults one of my all time favorite horses and the greatest Egyptian show horse of our time was *Sakr. He was over just a bit on both front knees and east and west in front legs and he traveled about as wide as a horse possibly could travel from behind!!!. Yet he never broke down was sound for Ten years of grueling and showing. So again lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I mean you no disrespect but I think you are on a witch hunt that has no witch. If you are trying to get them to test the horse that is up to them. There is no one on this earth not even you that believes in riding a horse than me. When I look at a stallion and contemplate to breed to him I ask myself a simple little question. "Would I ride this horse into Battle" if the answer is NO I walk away? I hardly think I would want to lead a horse into battle. Now having looked this horse over from a complete "Horseman's" evaluation I think the answer would be Yes! I would ride this horse into battle.

Have a Grand day biggrin.gif
Steve Diamond
Guest_westwindtc_*
Amiin just won a Region 9 Top Five in Purebred Open Working Cow Horse and AATR Purebred Working Cow Horse after leaving the EE on Sunday. From the halter ring to the work ring.

Larry Westmoreland
CarolHMaginn
Congratulations Larry!!! That is wonderful news!!!! I am sorry I missed the Region 9 Show!!!

Give Amiin a hug!

Carol

QUOTE (Guest_westwindtc_* @ Jun 17 2006, 11:05 PM)
Amiin just won a Region 9 Top Five in Purebred Open Working Cow Horse and AATR Purebred Working Cow Horse after leaving the EE on Sunday. From the halter ring to the work ring. 

Larry Westmoreland
*
Becca
wonderful for Amiin! Are there photos posted in the Event thread?
Steve Diamond
Dear Summer and Larry,

Congratulations!!! biggrin.gif I geuss that show the "proff is in the pudding" so to speak.

Now Hansi you know why "My Halter" Stallion had trailers on his back shoes!!!
To catch the cows!!! LOL Again I hope I prove my point. Give Amiin++ some carrots for me please Larry and I will see Summer and you soon.

Cheers, biggrin.gif

Steve Diamond
Tous crins
Hi Steve,

thank you for sharing your experiences on breeding and describing ancestors good and bad points. That is because of such posts that I read this forum.
I had always wondered about rear legs as you describe them in Sakr but now I will "judge" them differently.

Congratulation Amiin.

Thanks Hansi, Carol and Heidi for provoking reactions from which I can learn!

Christine
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
Hi There Steve

I enjoyed reading you post very much, one thing my dad taught me in life is to always look for the positive or good first, see a half full cup rather than a half empty, surround yourself with positive people and you will be like them also, if you surround yourself with negative unhappy people and you will soon become negative and bitter.

This horse does have a tremendous lay of shoulder and well laid back whither, he has a lovely shape of neck and neck set and a beautiful head, these are the first things that jumped out at me.

Bearing in mind that Type is far more than just a beautiful head, I think he also has excellent Type, look at his beautiful ears, and fine walled large nostrils, his skin quality looks fine and black, he appears to have defined tendons and great tail carriage, and by all reports he has a beautiful floating movement, and with that shoulder so he should, there is no denying he is all Arabian.

Thanks for putting things in perspective Steve

Cheers
Jenni
CarolHMaginn
Steve,

Thanks for sharing your knowlege with us.... That was very interesting...And good to know. Your sense of humer makes learning fun and memorable...

Thanks,

Carol
Sharabia
First, a message to Amiin ++: YEAH, BA-BY! wub.gif

Also,

QUOTE (Steve Diamond @ Jun 18 2006, 05:04 AM)
   
Bazy Tankersly one of our treasures said in her 60+ years of breeding she learned about legs in her program. She once owned the great *Silver Vanity in partnership. He was a glorious and remarkable horse of extreme quality and type. However he had a leg problem in that he was sickle hocked. Some of he foals had it and some did not, so she decided as much as she liked him she would rid her program of the blood. About 40 years later she kept seeing certain horses she really admired and were very well conformed. To her dismay they all went to *Silver Vanity. She then started reincorporating the blood back into her heard and said she had learned that no leg fault was enough to throw out the whole picture. She said she had learned that the foals sired by *Silver Vanity that did not have the sickle hocks did not produce the problem yet maintained her desired type. So I thought I would share this with you also as you must always evaluate the "Whole Picture"!!!...

Have a Grand day  biggrin.gif
Steve Diamond
*


For those interested in the above: I think it was a lecture by Ms. Tankersly first ?, then placed into "article form". I believe a copy of the above example is in a publication printed by the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse for educational purposes. It was/is a terrific article, which I initially read with great interest and will now have to pull it down from my collection and re-read it again tonight. I am not sure if you can still attain a copy, but it wouldn't hurt to contact the organization through their website if any of you are interested in that article.

On another note:

There are extremes in anything and everything - a swinging pendulum that can become dangerous. Yet, I think many breeders are reaching out to stop an out of control "swing" by breeding for both that classic type and sound conformation, along with trainability and temperment. The performance and halter horse. Of course no horse is perfect and the challenge is choosing matings that bring each vision a person has as close as possible to a breathing reality, IMHO. - Then the obvious surpises as reported by our "veterans", some great, some not so great so you ride with the "tide".

OH... and there are various different kinds of Arabians with different heads and "looks". It is simply a matter of preference.

Sheila Bautz
Oliver
QUOTE (Steve Diamond @ Jun 18 2006, 05:04 AM)
Dear Hansi,

    I have sat back and watched you be very insulting, demeaning and cruel to many people here. This is absolutely uncalled for. If you are trying to teach people something I think you need to get a better approach. I see you dissecting a stallion that once again does not have a thing to do with you or your breeding program. Did you see his halter class? Did you see his competition? I did. I thought he deserved to win his class. He was well conditioned and superbly shown. So we have some people screaming about his legs? There were three judges that scored him in each category including legs and he still came out on top! It is a horse show and you have to keep it in perspective. I would think after all these years of being around horses you might have learned a bit more on evaluating them. I know your background was in warm bloods but these are "Arabian" horses. First and foremost you must know that every doughnut has a hole. If you can always compare horses to cars then for arguments sake I can use a doughnut. This is a perfect example of how negative you can be. I think everyone here has agreed that this horse has extreme type. overall. An exquisite head but has anyone mentioned that he has a tremendous heart girth! He has a good spring of rib (Which we are losing) A nice deep hip, A very well laid back shoulder and his legs are set properly on all four corners. So as Tom McNair would have said "What in the Sam Hill is your problem!" Carol Chapman gave me some good advice I would like to share with you on evaluating horses. She told me to ALWAYS first look for what was right with the horse!
It is very easy for people to find the faults without appreciating the good points. This also puts you in a positive frame of mind when you are evaluating a horse instead of a negative. I prefer to deal with positive attitudes. A second thing I remember her telling me was what Mr.Gerald Donahue used to say about questionable leg faults. That is he would look the horse up and down and round and round and then he say "They must be pretty good legs as they seem to hold him up!"
   
I have seen over the past 40+ years of raising horses all sorts of leg faults and have learned not to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. I have seen a stallion with off set cannons and pasterns facing east and west bred to a mare with the exact same problem and the foal come out with text book perfect legs! I have seen leg problems caused by improper shoeing and trimming and also I have seen leg problems from foals laying wrong during gestation. Such as windswept legs etc.
 
  Bazy Tankersly one of our treasures said in her 60+ years of breeding she learned about legs in her program. She once owned the great *Silver Vanity in partnership. He was a glorious and remarkable horse of extreme quality and type. However he had a leg problem in that he was sickle hocked. Some of he foals had it and some did not, so she decided as much as she liked him she would rid her program of the blood. About 40 years later she kept seeing certain horses she really admired and were very well conformed. To her dismay they all went to *Silver Vanity. She then started reincorporating the blood back into her heard and said she had learned that no leg fault was enough to throw out the whole picture. She said she had learned that the foals sired by *Silver Vanity that did not have the sickle hocks did not produce the problem yet maintained her desired type. So I thought I would share this with you also as you must always evaluate the "Whole Picture"!!!

    If you are going to go into the fact that he is going to break down in training then you are full of it. If we are going to talk about leg faults one of my all time favorite horses and the greatest Egyptian show horse of our time was *Sakr. He was over just a bit on both front knees and east and west in front legs and he traveled about as wide as a horse possibly could travel from behind!!!. Yet he never broke down was sound for Ten years of grueling and showing. So again lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I mean you no disrespect but I think you are on a witch hunt that has no witch. If you are trying to get them to test the horse that is up to them. There is no one on this earth not even you that believes in riding a horse than me. When I look at a stallion and contemplate to breed to him I ask myself a simple little question. "Would I ride this horse into Battle" if the answer is NO I walk away? I hardly think I would want to lead a horse into battle. Now having looked this horse over from a complete "Horseman's" evaluation I think the answer would be Yes! I would ride this horse into battle.

Have a Grand day  biggrin.gif
Steve Diamond
*


This is such a valuable and meaningful post. It's easy to "recognize" some leg faults but it's very hard to put them in perspective of the whole horse. Everyone in the stands can scream "oh my gosh, look at this legs" to create a rumour and yes, the perfect horse isn't yet born but there are minor and major leg faults and abviously the judges agree Suhail has minor leg faults. The overall picture of this horse is that he has excellent breed type, and wnderful head, a good neck, excllent shoulder, good heart girth, a goud croup, hight tail carriage, good movement and legs that "hold him up" (just kidding). What's the problem?

I think Anne and we all can learn from the story Stevie told about *Silver Vanity. "Put the whole thing in perspective".
HLM
Dear Steve

Here we go again. I suggest you read my posts again. you need to stop being insulting and making statements which could put creditability into question.

If you can not honestly discribe faults without whitewashing, or bashing the messenger, than we can not learn. I dont believe tom McNair would have lowered his standard nor other respected people you mentioned.

Any input of knowledgable horse people, and there are many around, should be appreciated and respected, in particular when these are correct. If have not heard either ever speaking in vulgarity- remember your other post? I never knew that one could also have a vivious portion.

Indeed there are detrimental faults, and if a horse has such, then one hopes it is not genetic and wont breed on. To determine if a horse is breeding stock, one tests. The exceptions are if a horse got injured and one cant,and then is willing to take a chance. I believe that is practized in any equine breed.

If you feel that our SE industry is on the right track and all the horses pinned as champions for the sake of beauty only will contribute, then that is your perogative.

You mentioned Sakr's faults. I guess you never considered why at least one came about- i.e. going wide behind. Dressage lessons you might have had, would have given you the explanation.

some of us are sincerely interested to bring the SEs back on track, back into international respect as also a "Horse" and if you feel you are not interested in such, than again that is your perogative.

Indeed I have only seen the horse from a distance and can not judge, only what faults were mentioned and what they mean. If such exists I will some day find out when I see the horse.

I recommend to you that you try to continue being professional in your statements and possible consider speaking "in general". Personal attacks
show a particular character, especially when they are unfounded.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Lary

Congrats, this is so wonderful. I am so proud over Amiin doing so well for the Straight Egyptian Horses. I looked him over at the Ee and really liked him.
He is beautiful and a great athlete. He might be able to breed all his wonderful atributes on and he is so well bred too. I hope he will have many offsspring on the ground.

Have a nice day and lots of luck for the future

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Cyglenda Miller
Hi Steve,
Here is a pic that I took of you and Amiin. I loved this stallion when I saw him. Very impressed with him.

Cyglenda
Liz Salmon
Steve, I couldn't agree with you more. I had two great mentors in the breed, one was the horseman and author R.S. Summerhays, who always said look at the positives first and never use the word straight when looking at a shoulder—say the shoulder could be a little more sloping, Croup could be more level etc. I still use that terminology today. The other was Lady Anne Lytton—Lady Wentworth's daughter.

Like you, I'm also very much a rding person, but I also respect people for wanting to breed and show Arabians in Halter. When judging, I have sometimes broken a tye of two great horses by thinking—which one would I like to ride ? I would love to ride Suhall.
HLM
Dear Oliver

thank you for your kind input. Of course, nobody has a perfect horse, but one should learn what certain ones can do. Now, one can do this by personal experiences or in receiving a lesson verbally or in writing. I had hundreds of our own horses in race training at our farm- mostly Egyptian Releated-and was able to learn what their conformation, good or bad, ended up doing. I rode many too and each one gives a fifferent feel as well. In 1989 we sold at our sale close to 200 head. When one puts over 1000 foals on the ground in one's lifetime, Warmbloods, TBs and Arabians, one indeed learns a lot. We did and have.

When statements are made that a horse has excellent legs, than one would think they are flawless to the degree they wont break down when put under stress.
A short forearm will not hurt,but a tied in leg will. So will bad hocks.
Just to mention a couple and I again am referring "in General"..

We have many newcommers in our midth, eager to learn, wanting so breed horses they or others eventually can ride an/or compete on in the future. Many are willing to pay a good price for a good horse hoping for the best. I feel it is the duty of any professional and/or knowledgable/experienced horsemen/woman to contribute with honest opinions and then let the people make their own decision. Talk is so cheap and some people do a lot and can not substanciate of some they are talking about.

I give you an example. I am very familiar with the Shepherd (Dog) breed
and I guess you might be too. At a championship show- best of show- a shepherd became the champion. this dog was literally walking on his cannon bones-looks like rabbit feet. Now this is bred on, and such dog one does not see with the police force or any other entity needed a dog for top performance outside a showring. while I never heard of hip displasure either in Germany when young, it is very prevelent here for some years. I would think it could be of inconsequent breeding methods, going may be for beauty and not culling enough.

Result, the newcommer now wants to have this rabbit leg type Shepherd, thinking that is the best to have. Well the same goes in the horse industry with some breeds. Qhorses by enlarge no longer have the conformation the originals had and performance is accordingly. TBs are still tested for their speed and paid for accordingly, even if they break down eventually, but after winning big races. So you see, each one has a purpose, a likes or dislikes and must do what they want to do. I myself prefer the "warning Signs" like the "Stop" sign on a street- saying "Pay attention". And I also will state my opinion of what I think could happen with this or that fault through personal experiences, not wishful thinking etc. common sense simply has to be maintained.

All in all, I guess each one of us tries their best to help, gives time freely and their opinions. May be this is what is wrong. By example.I was told by one exhibitor at the EE that they had a basket full with little puppies- and a sign- free! None were taken. The person than put a sign on "$ 40.00" a piece, and they were all gone in a short while. Amazing, isnt it?

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Liz

But is this not what many of us say? I do, unless it is so bad it needs a different explanation.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Liz Salmon
That's right Hansi, but there's different ways of putting things over—I was always taught to be as diplomatic and positive as possible, I don't always manage it, but I think maybe there's also a difference between your culture and background and mine.
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