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Oliver

Photo by Suzanne

The beautiful stallion Suhail Al Nasser, born in Qatar,
won his class at the Egyptian Event by unanimous decision of the judges.
However, after his win a discussion about his legs arose.

His handler Michael Byatt, the former manager of Suhal's studfarm,
and Bart van Buggenhout, manager of Al Rayyan in Qatar, who knows this
stallion and his parents very well, responded in an open and polite way
and encouraged the guest (Anne) to point ou the exact faults she had seen on him.
Well, they never really got an answer.

Here is the discussion.
Decide for yourself.

Oliver

P.S. I edited his name spelling - now it is Suhail Al Nasser
Oliver
Guest_Anne
Jun 10 2006, 02:02 PM
Unregistered

Don't throw bombs or use your flame throwers BUT.... why, can someone please tell me why, a horse with such obvious leg faults could be a Champion in his class?? Yes, he has a very beautiful head and I am talking about Suhal, BUT please those legs. When are we going to wake up and pick stallions with type AND correct conformation?? And it would be refreshing if we could discuss these horses in an open and frank manner without everyone jumping on the band wagon cooing and ooing over a horse and then stabbing someone who has a legitimate question just because the horse is owned by a member of a clique or has a rich influentional owner. By the way this is constructive criticism and my personal opinion so let's see if this group is mature enough to take it as such.


ANSWER FROM:
PGD
Jun 10 2006, 02:49 PM

Advanced Member

Guest_Anne,
I have never really looked closely at Suhal's legs, so can't speak to that, but I will say that the leg scores were very "interesting" to say the least in many cases. In one instance, in particular, a mare was shown with front legs that were so bowed and crooked that they could easily be seen clear across the arena (I have this mare and the class on video). The mare received 16's for legs (a reasonably and comparatively high score with respect to other scores at this show) and she was 2nd in her class. Other horses, with legs I have personally observed to be pretty good legs, were scored lower in some cases.
However, I can tell you how a horse with obvious leg faults can be champion, even if the horse's legs are scored accurately. If a horse has extreme type (which Suhal does) and receives good scores for everything else, he could easily be champion. Legs are only one part (although, yes - obviously an important one) of the total package. A horse that is superior in every other way will still win.
(...)
Nancy P.


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Michael Byatt_*
Jun 10 2006, 10:00 PM
Unregistered

There is one way to insure a fair discussion on this....what do you find so bad about Suhal's legs? I will photograph them and post them on this site. I live with him, and have no big issue with any part of them.
Michael Byatt


ANSWER FROM:
Roger Jun
11 2006, 12:48 PM

Advanced Member

Anne,
Please describe the obvious legs faults you refer to. I have seen the horse both last year and this year, and did not see any "obvious" leg faults. I find him to be very impressive overall and although I didn't see his class this year, I felt he was the obvious choice for winning his class last year. So It's no surprise to me that he won again this year.
Roger


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 11 2006, 02:16 PM
Unregistered

Sorry for the delay in responding but I have to use my neighbours computer as mine crashed and burned so to speak.
Mr. Byatt, I would sincerely appreciate seeing up close photos of Suhal's legs, from the front straight on and the rear and of course side shots. Also could you show us his body structure as well. I personally think Suhal is a very beautiful animal in the head and neck but IMHO it ends there and only having a head and neck in a Champion breeding animal is simply not enough, again this is based upon my criteria for choosing a breeding stallion and if I was a judge a Champion.
Roger, I guess it depends upon what your personal expectations are with respect to legs on a horse and this is an area that I expect to see almost perfection especially if the horse is pinned Champion and more importantly if the horse is to be utilized as a breeding animal. For openers lets start with offset canons for the first fault.
Anne
Oliver
ANSWER FROM:
bartvb
Jun 12 2006, 05:43 AM
Advanced Senior Member


Anne,
Suhail Al Nasser was born here in Qatar and on regular bases I saw him grew up till he left the country, actually I finalised the deal with Eileen. As Michael and others stated this horse has absolute no such leg problems you could not possibly live with them. In conformation ok he's a bid long and soft in the back but has good lenght of croup, good shoulder - neck comes out great. good chest.
Sorry to say but before you open a loudspeaker you should consider there are other knowledgeable horse persons around whom might have different visions and honnestly actually feel very offended by the way you posted your message!
Frankly this horse has a lot of plus much much more so them minus, as a breeder you should see that and work with what you got. And this horse could offer a lot, obviously the judges tought so to and I'm happy to share their opinion. A good breeder do's not aprouch with negative toughts!
Furthermore yes for those of our friends whom are interested to hear it Richious should be arriving in Qatar (beginning july) to stand for two seasons at Al Rayyan Farm. We are delighted that Deshazer Arabians is giving us the chance to introduce this fantastic pedigree and individual to the program. And I cant wait to work and play around with him. I think he could do great things for Qatar.
Bart van Buggenhout

ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne_*
Jun 12 2006, 03:02 PM

Unregistered

My goodness, this is exactly what I was talking about and that is the immature reaction to my question about Suhal’s legs!
Bart, if you read my post again you will note that I am not trying to be mean but rather I am giving some constructive criticism. IMHO this stallion, beautiful as he is and he is beautiful, does not have very good legs. I certainly did not intend to offend anyone when I mentioned his obvious leg faults; yes obvious if you know anything about correct leg structure. In another post I stated that acceptance of these leg faults would depend upon one’s personal expectations with respect to leg structure. Bart, obviously you and Michael can live with this and work with this within your idea of a top breeding animal and within your breeding program but I would rather not as legs are important to me, more so than extreme type (note, I said extreme just so you won’t wander down that road with type being so much more important than good structure).
Bart, yes there are other knowledgeable horse persons around who may have a different opinion than I do but that does not negate the fact that this is a horse with not the best of legs. Fine, take his plus factors and work with them if you can accept his legs BUT do not deny the negative factors! Again in my humble opinion it is our refusal to demand better of our Champion winning breeding animals that has placed us in the mess that we now find ourselves. Obviously there hasn’t been a perfect horse born but we certainly can set our standards higher or can we? I personally would consider it a worthy challenge for breeders to create something with good structure as well as type. Why can’t we produce a horse with both???? One does not have to just work with what one has or accept these things just because of where the horse came from or who owns the horse or who is on the other end of the lead line. We should be setting our goals much higher and our judges should be demanding much higher standards in our breeding animals. Bart, Michael, let me say this and that is I would be the first one to applaud and commend any breeder who produces a top quality, structurally correct horse with type!
The question should be are the breeders out there up for the challenge and are the judges out there willing to demand higher standards??
Anne
P.S. The stallion Amiin should give everyone an example of a very nice complete package! No he does not have an extreme head but a beautiful head and super nice comformation and movement.

ANSWER FROM:
CarolHMaginn
Jun 12 2006, 07:01 PM

Advanced Senior Member

Dear Anne,
A few things... Obviously I love Amin since bid on his EBC, but was outbid... That said... I had not seen Suhail up close until this year. In looking at all the horses I'll tell you what i noticed... I love a horse that is exotic with a nice neck, a throatlatch that is clean, a mitbah that is evident, tail carriage, MOST importantly good movement... In other words - I like a horse who can lift up his knees and really trot out... This was very hard to find and only a small percentage of the stallions I saw had superior movement. It is very hard to find both exotic type and movement in the same horse. I saw that in Suhail. I didn't see a problem with his legs. What exactly did you see wrong with his legs?
I really think if a horse has a serious leg fault, he cannot possibly move as well as Suhail did. Perhaps he had a minor leg fault - but if that were the case I certainly think it would be worth the effort to use the stallion on a mare with superior legs because of his other fantastic qualities... Would you not agree that it was worth the effort?
Carol

ANSWER FROM:
Guest
Jun 12 2006, 04:03 PM

Unregistered

Anne,
I want to voice a word of support for your position. I did not go to the event this year, nor have I seen the colt that you mention. What I have seen, at numerous previous events, and at Regionals and Nationals over the past several years, are several beautiful halter champions (Breeding classes), and I mean gorgeous horses, with legs, feet and movement so bad that I would not want them in my barn, even if they were free. Nor would I ever breed one of my mares to a stallion with bad legs or feet, no matter how gorgeous he may be.
Mr. Byatt is a wonderfully knowledgeable and talented handler, and it always surprises me when he is so often at the end of the lead of these horses that have, as you say, obvious faults. But he is not alone in that. Other well known and well respected handlers have done the same. Money talks and so do awards.
Because of this, I point to the judges as the ones who are in error. Mr. Byatt and other big name handlers, who obviously know better, will only show these horses if they are rewarded for doing so. Rewarded not only in training and handling fees, but multiple wins at this level of show. These shows should not be beauty pagents, where the prettiest and best groomed and conditioned horses should win, these are BREEDING CLASSES, and should be judged as such, based on not only type, but on sound conformation.
The other ones in error are the mare owners who will now breed to these stallions, not knowledgeable enough to realize these obvious faults. Just looking for the next beautiful halter winner, from a champion stallion. Again, money talks.
Until the judges start judging what they should, and the breeders start doing the same, this problem will continue.
Good on ya, Anne for pointing this out, no matter how unpopular your views and opinions are. Hopefully at least one judge or potential breeder will read this and take a closer look at what they are doing.


ANSWER FROM:
isabeau
Jun 12 2006, 05:17 PM

Newbie


To Anne and "unregistered guest"; Bravo for bringing up several unpleasant truths regarding our showing and breeding practices. Just because we find it unpleasant doesn't make it any less true. We prefer to "shoot the messanger" rather than deal with the problem. I've been beating this drum for years and am deaf from the noise, but no one seems to listen. We have a breed standard for a reason. How many people, including many of our judges, even know what it says? If we look at what's winning in our show rings we can only assume no one feels it is important enough to adhere to OR they simply are unable to recognize it. I know many, many people who have horses, love horses, breed horses, some even ride their horses, but they don't know or can't see common leg faults. Arabian shows look to the Quarter horse people to find out what a western pleasure horse is, we look to Saddlebreds to find what a saddleseat horse should be, we look at Warmbloods and Thoroughbreds for a dressage or hunt seat horse. If we would only READ our breed standard we would see that Arabian horses necks are set on their bodies MUCH higher than a stock horse and his natural trot covers much more ground than his brother the stock horse. And yet, the STOCK horse western pleasure is the standard we hold our horses to. I could go down the list Saddlebreds, Warmbloods, Thoroughbreds but each of you should be able to see my point. Our horses are THE most versatile breed. But of course, if we aren't riding them, none of that matters. If we aren/t riding them, crooked legs really aren't a point. Horses are a USING animal. We are missing the point totatlly if we are not breeding our Arabians to live in the tent and race off to battle at moments' notice.
Oliver
ANSWER FROM:
Maria
Jun 12 2006, 10:05 PM

Advanced Member


Dear Anne,
As the former manager at Al Nasser stud, and the one person who saw Suhal from the day he was born till the day he left for the states every day! I feel compelled to say something. I am not denying or agreeing that the horse has faults, just want to say a few words.
I think maybe you should have thought a little harder about the first post that you posted about this horse.
No1. you knew this would become a slanging match from your opening statement, but you still persued it, inviting arguments..
No2. If you really want to know why Suhail became champion in his class, the best thing to do is ask the judges,I am sure they have more to say than the forum members, where more than half of them have not even seen the horse. Oh and have you perhaps thought that he might have been the best one for the title in that class, despite his faults.
No3. I most certainly do not believe that his winning had anything to do with his owner, breeder or handler, this horse has won classes since he was very young with different handlers, and in his birth country where the breeder and owner was just another sheikh like all the other.
No 4. If this was indeed just your personal opinion, then why oh why bring it up in such a manner, no need to crush, beat and burn the poor horse.
I most certainly do not invite for an argument on my statements, if however you would like to take it further please E-Mail me personally. I am sure I still have some cool shots of him from his childhood somewhere i could send you. Full body shots, moving and standing.
Yours
Maria Bishop


ANSWER FROM:
bartvb
Jun 13 2006, 05:08 AM


Advanced Senior Member

Dear Maria,
Thanks for your post, all but true.
Dear Anne,
Mr. Bialobok has been the Director of Michalow one of the most important breedings programs world wide for decades, I do not think you should desmiss his opinion so easely. Mr. Gamlin has been a judge, hadler, worldwide traveller, breeder , ... for as long as I have been in thi horse world (well over 20y) i dont think his opinion can be taken either that lightly. The american judge, sorry I do not know.
Type is what sets the difference between the breeds and it should be the primar score for any breed whatever it is. Or do you want and Arabian to look like a quater horse and visa versa? Furthermore I really do not and will not accept your comment that Suhail has a major leg faulth (by the way you still did not specify wich faulth), I know anough about horses have been working with them full time for over 16years that I would see one if its there so no need to question me on that knowledge. If he had I would not be so stupid to defend him for it.
Futhermore I think american breeders should be very happy and pleased to have such stallion returned to them, coming from some of there finest stock. And I advice them to use him and to consider type a little more, to be frank in the last few years we have not seen that many winners at the USA Egyptian Event that could come over to Europe or Middle East and impress us as an outstanding egyptian arabian horse. Seems your setting type to much to the side rather then embrace it.
A friend of min e whom I very much respect for his vision had more or less same ideas as you: acceptable type with perfect confirmation (do's not excist either but ok). He succeeded very well in his goal but his horses simply do ot highlight at the show to win and therefor to be sold on. Now he stopped breeding as he has a collection full of perfect horses (so called) but no clients to sell them to.
As you said you wanted to have an open discussion I gave you my advise: An Arabian should look like one tothe max of his abilities thats what inspires the world of art, breeders, history, stories and most important new persons to the world of the Arabian horse. Good legs do not make stories and history.
With best regards,
Bart / manager Al Rayyan Farm.
www.alrayyanfarm.com


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 13 2006, 04:32 PM

Unregistered


Carol,
One thing you should remember with respect to breeding and that is you have a 50/50 chance of getting those bad legs from the stallion as to getting good legs from your mare, not to mention what might be lurking back in both of their respective pedigrees. Also, horses with bad legs can move quite well, it's just a matter of how far and under what conditions. I know of a very seriously calf kneed horse being named Champion stallion and being ridden at shows quite successfully..... all that remains is to see if those nice calf knees breed on. I did mention one of the leg problem with Suhal.
Offset cannons are very prevalent in some of the popular bloodlines and when those lines are doubled and tripled what can one expect? Nice heads though
Anne


ANSWER FROM:
Guest
Jun 13 2006, 04:45 PM


Unregistered

Hello Maria Bishop, former manager of Al Nasser Stud
Maria, I prefaced my comments very carefully in hopes that this group could respond in a mature manner and no I did not want it to become a slanging match.
How else is one supposed to pose a question and to voice an opinion? My reasoning was to bring forth a very important point and that is our judges are placing horses that have conformational faults and making them Champions of the show or class.
Yes, perhaps it would be best if we could ask these questions of the judges as to why they did what they did but Maria if he is the best one for the title in that class despite his faults what does that tell you? It tells me that perhaps the rest were worse and if that is the case then yikes what are we breeding?
Perhaps this win did not have anything to do with his owner, the handler or the breeder but can you deny that this occurs in our showring?
Again, I did not bring this topic up as a personal slight to Suhal. How else can you ask a question about the Champion of that class? The Champion was Suhal. Had another horse won the championship and that horse had leg faults we would be talking about that horse. The point is that our judges are pinning and making Champions of conformationally poor individuals.
Thanks Maria for the offer of photos of Suhal as a youngster and post them if you wish but I'm going on what I see standing before me in the hear and now.
Anne


ANSWER FROM:
CarolHMaginn
Jun 13 2006, 05:02 PM


Advanced Senior Member

Anne,
Thanks for your post. Well I think its good that we can all discuss these things openly. Where some folks wouldn't tolerate certain things - I would probably be willing to try a few new things to try and take a step further towards my goal. I would consider a stallion with some flaws if he has some really great assets to make up for the flaws, and if my mare and other horses in the stallion's pedigree did not have that flaw. If you are making a painting and the only way you can get one color is taking a few other colors that come with it - well sometimes you have to think about taking a leap of faith and trying out the new color. Maybe it will be a flop, but maybe you will have a chance to create something beautiful that would have never of existed without accepting the flaw...
When I got married - my husband presented me with the most beautiful diamond. It was a unique cut and sparkled more than any stone I'd ever seen. But he felt guilty that it was not perfect and had to tell me where this flaw was... I accepted the flaw because I couldn't find anything as beautiful... Now I've forgotton about the flaw and I love my diamond still. Just somehow reminded me of so many great horses - diamonds with a flaw are still beautiful and special and often sparkle more brightly than those that have no flaws. Sometimes the parts of the horse do not equal the whole horse when you look at him all together. A very wise breeder recently told me this as he was describing a very famous stallion who lived with him. He said that his horse had many flaws, but that when you saw him trot down the Aisle - he was suddenly sixteen hands tall and his flaws seemed to fade away and all you saw was his beauty and charisma. It was a very valuable lesson I shall not forget as it really made an impression on me... Seems like we were discussing the Scottsdale champion or reserve champion mare - who also by the way - had some flaws but was a gorgeous mare. I have forgotton the mare - but some will know who I am referring to...She was a gorgeous grey mare imported from Poland... Okay - I found the mare's name I was thinking of... Her name was * El Dorada... I didn't think she was perfect - but perfect enough for me...
Carol


ANSWER FROM:
Guest Anne
Jun 13 2006, 05:06 PM

Unregistered

Bart,
I'm sure Mr. Bialobok is knowledgeable and I'm equally sure that if push came to shove Mr. Bialobok would choose to utilize a horse with better legs than Suhal in the Michalow breeding program. I'm also sure Mr. Gamlin is a nice person as well as the American judge but Bart, if these judges are picking horses with obvious leg faults as being "the best" only because he.they have more type in the head what does that tell you? It tells me that our breed is in serious trouble. Perhaps you have not noticed the decline of our industry and the world wide lack of respect for the Arabian horse these days. Why do you think this has happened Bart?
I don't set type off to the side Bart. I consider type to be just one part of the overall picture. Yes type is important but not to the detriment of ESSENTIAL parts of the horse. The key is to be able to breed a horse with good conformation AND type. We should be setting our standards much higher and our goal should not be just type but both type AND conformation. It's the rewarding of those horses that only have pretty heads and fail in other areas over horses that have both type and conformation that have driven our standard down and not up. It is our refusal to produce a horse that can stand up to being used (or may I say that awful word RIDDEN), that has made the Arabian horse the laughing stock of the horse world.
My whole point in this was to ask the question "WHY" was Suhal pinned champion with his not so good conformation and why can't breeders breed a horse with both type and correct conformation??? I'm still asking this question!! This is not a vendetta against Suhal as he is only one of the many that are named Champion that fail on the conformation side of the equasion.
Bart, as to your breeder friend who gave up..... This is a sad state of affairs when someone producing quality individuals with both type and correct conformation quits due to the market only wanting an exotic head. Riding may be secondary for owners/breeders over there Bart but it is the backbone of ANY horse industry/breed and when you stop producing functional doing horses Bart your market dries up.... have you not noticed?
Again, Bart, this is not personal and I commend you for your over 16 years of experience but you of all people with your wealth of experience should at least be honest with yourself. It's high time that we started to take responsibility and to rise to the challenge of breeding a horse with type and conformation don't you think?
(since we are talking about experience I hesitate to say this as it tells my age but I've had over 40 years experience with the Arabian industry so I'm not just making waves or trying to be mean to Suhal)
Anne

ANSWER FROM:
heidip
Jun 13 2006, 07:19 PM

Senior Member

If someone can find a picture of a perfect leg please do post it. legs are scored as indivudals, I've yet to see a perfect leg so anyone?I was sitting right where the horses wait by the ring master before going into center ring to show. I did see bad legs but good ones also, to make a sweeping statement about horse legs in general I guess you need to see them for youself.The Aimee classes were packed with people showing their horses how exciting! After all isn't that why we gather together once a year to enjoy the Se Arabian at the Event to enjoy and learn more about our horses and different bloodlines represented there. As always you see some negative things happen, but the positive's far out weight the negative, my kudos to the P'S The people were friendly,happy to discuss their horses, pull them out for you to look at Wow the horse under saddle question, Sure i'd like to see all horses ridden but that's a owners choice and my choice to buy that stallion's breeding or not.If a sire has proven sons under saddle that's a big plus. The finals were very exciting! I can't wait till next year.

ANSWER FROM:
phanilah
Jun 13 2006, 08:26 PM

Senior Member

Against my better judgement, I'm wandering into this. But, first, my disclaimer.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, so to speak, since I'm not an owner, breeder or trainer. And, although I retired quite a few years ago from working with Arabians professionally, I do remember how easy it is to become defensive when a horse you are either close to, or really like, or your bloodline of choice starts getting critiqued...even when it's justifiable. And, having attended many Egyptian Events, I do have a good idea of what the horses are like there and how the judging is done. Now, since I'm not an owner or breeder, my "opinion" is obviously coming from the outside - however, it's an educated opinion by someone who is an eternal admirer of the Arabian horse, with a particular interest in Egyptians. But as always, take it or leave it...however each of you sees fit.
So...having said that. If, perhaps, people can lower their hackles a little bit and read deeper into the comments made by Anne, I think she has some very good, bigger picture points. In particular, I really liked these comments:

QUOTE
if these judges are picking horses with obvious leg faults as being "the best" only because he.they have more type in the head what does that tell you? It tells me that our breed is in serious trouble

QUOTE
I don't set type off to the side Bart. I consider type to be just one part of the overall picture. Yes type is important but not to the detriment of ESSENTIAL parts of the horse. The key is to be able to breed a horse with good conformation AND type. We should be setting our standards much higher and our goal should not be just type but both type AND conformation. It's the rewarding of those horses that only have pretty heads and fail in other areas over horses that have both type and conformation that have driven our standard down and not up
There is a reason why the Event is called the Special Olympics by some. Although I cringe when I hear the term (for many reasons), the above comments outline how the "nick name" came to be. Think long and hard about it....there is no reason why beauty and correct conformation have to be separate....yet, there seems to be an underlying train of thought that beauty is more important than structure, so structure becomes secondary.
Of course, this doesn't apply to every horse....but when a Champion (whether it be at the Event or elsewhere) has a structural fault(s) that just jumps out, it does make the question of - what is really being judged?? - come to mind. And, this isn't just an Event issue - there is a discussion on another forum re: a mare who was Champion at Scottsdale and has been named a National Champion in a couple of countries, yet she has some major sturcutural faults. And, I've attended enough US Nationals to know that there have been many times when horses have been pinned Top 10 or better and structurally, it left me scratching my head, since these are supposed to be the best in the country.
Just because there are no perfect legs doesn't mean that legs shouldn't be an important consideration and that breeders shouldn't be striving to breed horses with good legs. Same with bodies, just because perfection isn't attainable, doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. Beauty and correct structure can go together - but first, people need to get honest about what correct structure is. But, then again, like beauty, correct structure seems to be in the eye of the beholder.
As always, JMO from a long time observer of the Arabian show ring! !
Beth


ANSWER FROM:
tricia
Jun 13 2006, 08:42 PM


Newbie


If legs are so awful and our breed a laughingstock because they can't hold up under use, why are Arabians the leaders in endurance racing? Why are Arabians becoming known for their ability in dressage? Why are Arabians being used to work cattle?
Or are you saying that only the Arabians with high points in type have bad legs?
Guess I just don't get this argument - and I am having a little trouble with the idea that if the legs aren't perfect the horse is no good. Seems to me that the explanation that the horse is the sum of ALL its parts is pretty rational.
I'm probably sticking my neck way out, but I would rather have a horse with good termperament and a good work ethic than one that can get all 20s in the show ring but has no mind or is too skittish to trust under saddle. The ideal would be to combine the best of all areas and produce the perfect Arabian and that is what we all want to accomplish - maybe it just isn't going to happen in the halter ring.
Tricia


ANSWER FROM:
phanilah
Jun 13 2006, 09:00 PM

Senior Member



QUOTE(tricia @ Jun 13 2006, 09:42 PM)
If legs are so awful and our breed a laughingstock because they can't hold up under use, why are Arabians the leaders in endurance racing? Why are Arabians becoming known for their ability in dressage? Why are Arabians being used to work cattle?

How many of those horses are showing in halter? And, having worked with Arabian race horses for many years, I know how athletic the breed can be. But, those generally aren't the horses going into the halter ring. Now, SHIH is another story, because the judging is different...and I would wager that's why SHIH classes are growing, because it is different than the main ring halter.

QUOTE
Guess I just don't get this argument - and I am having a little trouble with the idea that if the legs aren't perfect the horse is no good. Seems to me that the explanation that the horse is the sum of ALL its parts is pretty rational.

Only speaking for myself, as mentioned earlier, this isn't an issue of being "perfect". I agree that a horse is a sum of its parts. But, when there are "glaring" structural faults (whether it be legs, body, whatever), it's hard to understand how it's beneficial to the breed to have that as "the best".
Please understand, I'm not addressing any specific horse(s) at the Event, since I wasn't there....but rather this is meant as a bigger picture thought process re: how judging is sometimes done in the halter ring.

QUOTE
The ideal would be to combine the best of all areas and produce the perfect Arabian...

Agreed - it's a need for balance, not sacrificing one area for another!!!
As always, JMO!
Beth

ANSWER FROM:
Anne-Louise
Jun 13 2006, 09:05 PM

Advanced Member


Hi Anne,
I have read your comments and am curious as to when you saw Suhail and the problems with his legs? I saw him at the Event both this year and previously, and although as with all horses there were things I did and didn't like about him, I didn't see any horrible leg faults that warrant the comments you have made on this forum. If you haven't actually seen the horse and are basing your opinion on photographs, perhaps you should consider the fact that photographs can distort reality significantly - my photographs can make very typey horses look dreadful, and similarly there are some real clonkers who are able to look absolutely exotic with a talented photographer. Perhaps if you haven't seen the horse you should reserve your judgment until you see him for yourself - I don't mean to sound high-handed, I am just very puzzled as to the basis for your comments.
Anne-Louise
Oliver
ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Michael Byatt
Jun 13 2006, 09:50 PM


Unregistered


Phanilah...first, your name sake is back in the United States...she arrived last week. Email me privately and I will explain.
Secondly, and what I have a big issue with is..."people getting up out of their seats beacuse the legs were so bad!" Or, "How could so and so have been champion with legs like that?" To me, this is all fault and out and it does not allow for a judge to judge the whole -- the composite of everything presented. This line of logic requires a judge, to eliminate from consideration, a horse with leg faults, without considering, and weighing all the other items against the other entries.
As a judge I weigh everyting. And leg faults need to be weighed as well. While over at the knees is very visible from afar I do not think it is as bad a calf knees. And calf knees are harder to see from a distance because they are not wobbling. And in weighing everything breed type is a must for me!
Taking leg faults and measuring against other conformation issues is next. For example, a crooked leg might not be as bad to one judge as a short-non-bendable-non-useable neck; one that would not and could not be put into the right place when bridled. It is ones education and experience that will determine how to prioritize these items.
Some come on -- dont get up and leave if you see a leg fault when a horse wins -- try and see, and learn, why that horse won. Maybe it will enlighten everyone a bit! I stand ready to learn.
Michael Byatt


ANSWER FROM:
Liz Salmon
Jun 13 2006, 10:09 PM

Advanced Senior Member


I couldn't agree more with Michael. When judging you have to weight up type, conformation and movement and balance everything. It's not always easy, and every judge has different conformational/type/movement issues that they can live with and those they can't. It would be very boring if we all thought exactly alike. Over at the knees is not nearly the fault that calf knees are, and in fact show jumpers benefit from being a bit over at the knees as it gives a little more flexibility as they land. Calf knees can severely strain the tendons and ligaments in the legs.

ANSWER FROM:
phanilah
Jun 13 2006, 10:46 PM


Senior Member

Michael - very interesting to hear about Phanilah...will you be up for Region V Championships again this year? If so, maybe we can chat further.
Re: the leg comments....I don't really disagree with the way Michael framed it. Especially re: not all leg faults being equal. But, where I do disagree with some judging is when beauty _does_ override basic structure, and for me it's not just about legs. And, I'm still hard pressed to see how selecting horses as "the best" (regardless of the show), who have glaring conformation problems is good for the breed, even if they are beautiful. Is that really better for the breed than horses who are typey, albeit not super exotic, who do have good structure?
Again, for me, I'm not focused on any particular horse from the Event, so can't comment re: some of the horses specifically mentioned in this thread. Albeit, I am now curious to see photos of Suhal.
Perhaps it's a case of agreeing to disagree that this happens or a difference of opinion regarding what is good conformation. But, in the end, it would be nice to see Arabians who have good structure all the way around (again, not looking for perfection) and look like Arabians...dominating the halter ring. But perhaps I tried adding too much depth to the original comments and am a bit of an idealist.
Beth

Edited to add: Okay, decided I couldn't wait until Region V, so Michael I've e-mailed you at the main e-mail.....also, tell me more about Dakharo.


ANSWER FROM:
SHOgrl97
Jun 13 2006, 11:31 PM

Advanced Member

Mr Byatt,
Thank you for explaining that in a way I haven't seen before. I can appreciate that. I am still not sure if I can agree with that though. These champions are supposed to represent the show they won. I do not think bad legs, no matter how severe or slight, are good examples to give new breeders. It is not acceptable for me to allow a horse with leg issues into my program because it has a typier head. I am a little disappointed that others can accept this as well. I did see other mares with just as much substance and much straighter legs that deserved that title as well. Maybe I truly picked the wrong breed to fall in love with...either that or the wrong country to show in! I did enjoy myself none the less!

ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Karen Henwood
Jun 14 2006, 02:02 AM


Unregistered







Michael, Bart and Anne Louise,
I agree with all of you.
I was so impressed with Suhal as a horse and his great show when he won his class, that I followed him outside. He is a beautiful, very typey stallion who
I like very much. I did not see any glaring leg problems.
I thought he was even better up close and personal. No doubt that this
boy is a great example of a S.E. He is in beautiful condition.
I have not seen a perfect horse yet, but I was so taken with this beauty
that he rates very high on my own"stallion meter." I hope he will be
in the U.S. for a long time and go on to more wins.
There are very many Kentucky Derby winners with very cooked legs.
Some have had to have quite a lot of surgery to get rid of pretzel legs.
I tried to see some perfect legs at The Event. I realize they all look different
from outside the ring than what the judges may be seeing.
But there were many imperfections in all classes if you look hard enough.
I appreciate being able to stand/sit back and look at a beautiful, balanced horse.
I do my own "mind judging" by judging the positives and then look to see for
glaring faults.
A Suhal admirer,
Karen


ANSWER FROM:
Sumerlan
Jun 14 2006, 03:07 AM

Advanced Member

Michael, Karen, Anne Louise, Bart and Maria:
I have followed this thread with interest over the past couple of days and feel compelled to speak my mind.
First of all, many thanks to Michael Byatt for his deeply seated commitment towards our ability as breeders to use blood from high-quality imported stallions. There is no need to discuss this further. . . one only needs to look at the stallions brought into this country by Michael's passion for our breed.
Bart and Maria, many thanks for your contribution in sharing Suhal with our country. Karen, I totally agree with you - he's high on my stallion meter as well! Many thanks to Suhal's owner, Luis Miguel Muzquiz, for bringing this promising stallion to us as breeders.
As a young breeder, lacing my breeding program with Ashhal Al Rayyan, Safir, Ansata Majesta, Imperial Mahzeer, Imperial Madheen, Salaa El Dine, Ansata Halim Shah, Maar Bilahh - highly sought after blood - was indeed accomplished through the young exotic stallion Suhal Al Nasser. From the first moment I saw him as a young import - this stallion took my breath away through the instense expression, huge eyes, the beautifully scuptured head, ears and ear set! His presence and type are just as equally extreme and exotic. Yes, he has faults - all horses do - but Anne, in my opinion - his strengths far outway your unfair discussion.

A breeder carefully plans and paints a portrait of the planned foal each season. Anne, even though you are certainly entitled to your thoughts - why discuss them in this manner? And, why have you only mentioned Suhal? I believe we all have our own personal thoughts when we look at any Arabian - that is what makes us individuals. However, openly discussing them in a derogative manner on an open forum is, in my opinion, is just tasteless. Discuss them with your personal friends - not on the internet. And, if you don't like what you see - with any stallion or mare - then keep your opinions private. In other words, if you can't say something nice - then just don't say it openly in this manner. It's just unfair to the many breeders out there who are busting their bums to bring their ideal of quality animals into the showring!
Anne, there are many breeders who will disagree with your opinion. There are many breeders who will sit back and let your comments go past. I, for one, am tired of your endless banter and wish you would just post your creative comments in a different manner - without slagging a young stallion who has been judged in many countries, by many judges, in many arenas - as a Champion.
Sumerlan


ANSWER FROM:
bartvb
June 14 2006, 01:56 PM


Advanced Senior Member


Well I think we said many things here and its obviously that there are two totally different ideas about how legs should be judged.
I stay with mine: An Arabian should look like one and if its with a minor leg faulth I 'm totally up for it. Horses are not perfect, nothing is. So if an imperfection occurs i have it rather there then anywhere else.
I still have to see the first horse win with excellent legs! But saw many win with excellent type and I get cold shivers from that! Never had that looking at good legs tough.
Furthermore its been said here before, perfect legs do not mean you have a great performing horse you still need much more for that. But there have been great performing horses with not good legs at all! Some of the greatest french arabian stallions of our time are poorly legged, still they win.
Furthermore I think in this discussion we have in one hand us : the ones involved with Suhail seem to be the ones who travelled most frequent overseas to Europe and Middle East and got taste of a much much higher type standart then you seem to have in the states right now! Maybe its time to open your horizon??? Maybe its time to pick up some lecture and read about the Arabians history and its culture and you might get quit supriced.
Anyhow, as said each person has to find his path, one Question remains tough: What was the dramatic problem on Suhail's leg then Anne???? Could you give us that?


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 14 2006, 02:28 PM

Unregistered


Michael, Karen, Anne Louise, Bart and Maria:
I have followed this thread with interest over the past couple of days and feel compelled to speak my mind.
First of all, many thanks to Michael Byatt for his deeply seated commitment towards our ability as breeders to use blood from high-quality imported stallions. There is no need to discuss this further. . . one only needs to look at the stallions brought into this country by Michael's passion for our breed.
Bart and Maria, many thanks for your contribution in sharing Suhal with our country. Karen, I totally agree with you - he's high on my stallion meter as well! Many thanks to Suhal's owner, Luis Miguel Muzquiz, for bringing this promising stallion to us as breeders.
As a young breeder, lacing my breeding program with Ashhal Al Rayyan, Safir, Ansata Majesta, Imperial Mahzeer, Imperial Madheen, Salaa El Dine, Ansata Halim Shah, Maar Bilahh - highly sought after blood - was indeed accomplished through the young exotic stallion Suhal Al Nasser. From the first moment I saw him as a young import - this stallion took my breath away through the instense expression, huge eyes, the beautifully scuptured head, ears and ear set! His presence and type are just as equally extreme and exotic. Yes, he has faults - all horses do - but Anne, in my opinion - his strengths far outway your unfair discussion.
Sumerlan, why is this discussion unfair? What is wrong with having an open and for once unbiased and honest discussion without getting our tights in a knot? Sumerlan, if you had read my posts you would know that Suhal was mentioned because he was the "Champion” and because the discussion is about picking horses that have conformation faults as our "Champion” just because he has, as you indicate above, intense expression, beautifully sculptured head, ears and ear set (a beautiful head in other words)! If it had been another horse that had leg faults and that horse had won the title of "Champion” then we would be discussing that horse. This is not a personal vendetta for Suhal.
A breeder carefully plans and paints a portrait of the planned foal each season. Anne, even though you are certainly entitled to your thoughts - why discuss them in this manner? And, why have you only mentioned Suhal? I believe we all have our own personal thoughts when we look at any Arabian - that is what makes us individuals. However, openly discussing them in a derogative manner on an open forum is, in my opinion, is just tasteless. Discuss them with your personal friends - not on the internet. And, if you don't like what you see - with any stallion or mare - then keep your opinions private. In other words, if you can't say something nice - then just don't say it openly in this manner. It's just unfair to the many breeders out there who are busting their bums to bring their ideal of quality animals into the showring!
Why Sumerlan do I need to keep my opinions private when you are expressing your opinions above in glowing terms on this open forum? I believe we should stop sticking our heads in the sand and start taking responsibility for what we are producing. I believe that breeders have a responsibility to create a horse that has type AND correct conformation and not just type and our judges have a responsibility to judge what is the best all round horse. I still don’t have an answer as to why can’t we produce horses with both type AND correct conformation? Also, why are judges giving Championships to horses with obviously beautiful type and obviously poor conformation? (This is a general statement and not reflective of any one particular horse…for the sake of everyone’s knickers!) What kind of a message does this give our young up and coming breeders? I agree with a post that was made earlier on this thread by Isabeau and that was that we have a breed standard and we are not following our own breed standard! Sumerlan, for your information I happen to like Suhal’s head and neck and said so in a previous post. Maybe we need to reverse the Most Classic class and have a most correct conformation class whereby we cover the head and see who has the best body and the winner of both classes…well, I would be surprised if they were the same horse but wouldn’t it be nice to have the same horse win both classes? Now that would be the worthy Champion and a very worthy goal for our younger breeders to aspire to as far as busting their buns to bring their ideal of quality animals into the showring!
Anne, there are many breeders who will disagree with your opinion. There are many breeders who will sit back and let your comments go past. I, for one, am tired of your endless banter and wish you would just post your creative comments in a different manner - without slagging a young stallion who has been judged in many countries, by many judges, in many arenas - as a Champion.
Yes Sumerlan there are some people who will disagree with my opinions and ideas but I have just as much right to discuss them as you have the right to discuss your opinions and ideas. Why would you call this endless banter? Is it because I have a different view of what should be a Champion or is it because I dare to discuss the problems in our breed?
Why don’t we have a discussion now about picking horses with both Type and Conformation and the challenge that this would bring to breeders in this country and overseas??
Anne


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 14 2006, 02:34 PM


Unregistered

Hello Anne-Louise
I have seen Suhal at the Event and I have viewed him up close from a distance of less than 2 feet. My concern is over our inability to pick horses with both type and conformation as our representative of being the best or our Champions!
Anne


ANSWER FROM:
Guest
Jun 14 2006, 05:07 PM


Unregistered

i have been reading the dicussions on Suhal with some interest. What none of his detractors mention when discussing his "undeserved championship" is the quality of his competition. One can not discuss this championship in the abstract, it must be framed by his competition. If he was not deserving of this championship please tell me which horse should have been awarded the championship in Suhal's place. The judges can only judge the horses in front of them.
I would like to congratulate evryone associated with this horse, the breeder, the owner, and the handler on this wonderful stallion. We in the US are lucky to have him in our country at a time when so many of the best horses bred here now reside overseas. I hope the breeders in the US will take advantage of their opportunity to use him in their programs.



ANSWER FROM:
Sumerlan
Jun 14 2006, 05:42 PM


Advanced Member

Anne:
First of all, Suhal was not Champion; he won his class and therefore was a Class Winner. The Supreme Champion was Al Lahaab. The Reserve Supreme Champion was Laheeb. Were you even at The Event this year? When was the latest time you saw Suhal? At Talaria? At Michael's open house? In Mexico? In Texas? Where? Just curious for discussional purposes.
Second, and I quote: "What is wrong with having an open and for once unbiased and honest discussion without getting our tights in a knot?" There is nothing wrong with having a constructive discussion of this nature. HOWEVER. There is nothing constructive about making a remark about a stallions legs . . . and then never clarifying what you are talking about even though you have been asked time and time again by many knowledgeable breeders and trainers throughout this thread. Out there on a limb?
Third, my comment about your endless banter is directed to you because if you can't back up specifically what you are talking about . . . then you are not discussing anything - just blowing your horn in a manner which is unfairly derogative to this stallion.
Fourth, is you wish to have a discussion about picking horses with both type and conformation and the challenge this brings to breeders in this country . . . let's start with what you are personally accomplishing in your breeding shed which is so much better than everyone else. . . but start a separate thread. In my opinion, you are the bomb thrower and flame thrower Anne. If you have a problem with our Judges or judging system, may I suggest you throw your energies into into daring to discuss your issues with the proper authorities?
Fifth, I have privately emailed Bart for Suhal's past accomplishments for purposes of this discussion.
Sixth, there were other horses with faults who won the title of Champion. They all have faults and virtues. Why aren't you unfairly making comments about all of the winners? God knows that would keep you busy for awhile.
Sumerlan


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 14 2006, 07:18 PM

Unregistered


Sumerlan,
First, it seems that it’s your knickers that are the most twisted at this point in time. Please go back and read my posts and you will see that I am not trying to be mean to a horse that you like. I also answered the question of where I had seen Suhal and I suggest you read that post as well, but in case you miss it again, I saw this horse at the Event and I was very close to him, close enough to view everything, including his legs.
Second, discussions about conformation are informative and educational. The problem (IMHO) with the Arabian horse people, and in particular those in the SE breeding group is their reluctance to have open minded discussions about breeding issues. I view this group as being like a bunch of red ants (sorry but this comes to my mind) swarming and bolstering each other in attacking anyone who has a different opinion than they do!! Go back in my posts and you will see that I did state what leg problems that I (IMHO) considered that this horse had.
Third, what on earth are you talking about Sumerlan?? I can’t back up what I’m talking about?? Please, this will not stop me from having my opinion on what is taking place in our industry and because you disagree with my….bantering on, well I guess you will just have to get over it.
Fourth, ah yes, the famous stick it to that person who dares to comment. Sumerlan it is you that are throwing flames right at the moment. I still dare to ask the question of why can’t breeders produce a horse with type AND conformation together in a package. I still have the audacity to comment about winners of a class and ultimately Champions of a show that only exhibit one part of the equation. I also do not have a problem asking any judge why he/she would pick a certain horse but right now I was asking the general Arabian breeding public.
Fifth, good but it doesn’t change his conformation does it!
Sixth… I’d love to take the time to discuss many horses that have won Championships but my goal was to bring forth the question of why can we not have both type and conformation in our winners and Champions? This seems like a very fair and down to earth question. Suhal winning his class has to mean that type is getting double points OR all the others in the class were lesser quality than Suhal, right? Again and for the very last time and just for you Sumerlan, I happen to think that Suhal is very beautiful, lots and lots of type, a very pretty Arabian horse BUT for me and I repeat for me, I want better conformation and better legs!!! Gosh… I want it all, guilty as charged!
Bring on the Amdro fire ant killer
Anne



ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 14 2006, 07:24 PM


Unregisterered
Bart,
You are the manager for Al Rayyan Farm in Qatar are you not? Al Rayyan has some of the most beautiful Straight Egyptian horses in the world, right? Don’t you think that it should be easy for you, considering some of the bloodstock at this farm, to produce an Arabian with type and conformation? (As well as movement, do not forget this component). Why then Bart would you settle for off set cannons or other leg faults just to produce one part of the equation? Why would you want to settle for anything less than a horse with the whole enchilada so to speak?
Bart, if you did create that exquisite outstanding individual, one with type, conformation and movement wouldn’t you and your fellow breeders value this individual above all others and state that this is probably one of the best you have produced to date?? I know I would. I know the world of SE breeders would as well.
Farms such as Al Rayyan and others in your area that also have top quality SE horses should be the ones setting the best example. By all means experiment, paint a picture in your minds eye as to what you want to achieve, breed how you see fit in order to achieve your goal, but Bart don’t compromise. Take all those beautiful horses that you have over there and create foals that have it all and then we can be proud. Start with giving Championships to horses that have the whole package to offer….what could possibly be wrong with this goal Bart?
Anne



ANSWER FROM:
Anne-Louise
Jun 14 2006, 07:48 PM


Advanced Member


Hi Anne,
I think from your last comment that you feel Suhail has badly offset cannons. I disagree. Was that the fault that you felt he had that began this whole mishmosh? I am not affiliated in any way with Bart nor Michael Byatt nor Maria, but I do think that comments such as yours, which again I would have to disagree with, are not beneficial to the horse nor constructive discussion. Being conscious of a horse's good and negative points when breeding is a necessity - but unfair and inaccurate criticism of a good horse does concern me as being simply antagonistic. I am sure that this was not your intention, and if I misunderstood your criticism of the horse I would very much like to better understand what it is that you find so offensive about him. I confess that your vehemence has quite intrigued me as I have always thought that I am fairly persnickety about legs.
And yes, we would all like to breed perfect horses both in type and conformation, and I am sure Bart shares that goal.
Anne-Louise


ANSWER FROM:
HLM
Jun 14 2006, 08:02 PM


Gold Member



Dear Bart
I just got back ferom the EE and am still in "shock". Indeed some horses with not so good legs have been winning some performance classes, but against what?
Are you going by what you read or hear, of by what you can judge as a rider?
What shocked me the most that it was not only many questionable legs on many, but the great lack of susbstance,and -no whithers, no girth, no front end, no rearend-poor gaskins, weak joints, very poor hoofs, necks too long, some pasterns too long, others too short, legs like toothpicks,.etc.but in beautiful condition. Some of these trainers must have taken make up lessons in hollywood. Some had the hair over the eye socket shaved off by two inches to make the eye look large. In reality it made the horses look ugly. that is misrepresentation, or? Paul and david Houseknecht had some very good horses there which impressed me. One offspring of True Colours had horrible front legs and a bad club foot. He did get the gate.
I was wondering what one is to do with these horses, including the young ones when they grow up?
I also went to see part of the endurance races. My recommendation to all" If you want to see good legs etc, then go watch the next one". It would teach what to look for. I hardly saw horses in the ring which could had such excellent legs and conformation overall. I guess, this is why they last over many miles and years, eh?
I looked the "Stallion show case" over, and again I am shocked. Of those
twenty or what ever number, may be 4-6 would qualify as a breeding stallion, the rest just might by accident make a half way decent gelding, most likely not good enough to do anything worthwhile. Before I even got near one young horse the haendler already esplained" I am a rider Hansi and the colt is in early saddle training". It was a nice colt with lots of promise. As usual this nice gentleman instantly wanted to stand the colt up for me. I asked not to do this, to leave him alone, I want to see the horse, including his eyes, meaning what does his soal speak, fire, gentleness, kindness, etc, or! So do most judges.
Movement. I saw only a couple which could. No impulsion behind and no stride infront. And indeed some were scared and hesitated in their movement.
A few olDtimer breeder/horsemen were also watching and just shook their heads.
They seem to know many of the ancestors in the pedigrees of these horses and claimed that they could see nothing coming forth genetically. Well, NEITHER DID I by enlarge!!! this is a tragic shame.
But I did see some very good horses with our smaller breeders, which of course did nothing in the ring. that again is a shame, they deserved better.
And poor Allison of talaria almost lost her beloved stallion "Botswana".
At her open stable house two VERY, VERY DUMB greenhorn hAENDLERS PUT TWO STALLIONS NOSE TO NOSE, one kicked out when led away and hit Botswana hard on
the offside front leg. I thought it was broken. Fortunately he was alright, although hurting. Before it happened I was just about to sream out DONT DO THIS YOU IDIOTS" but was too late.
Please let this be a warning. It is absolutely poor and dumb horsemenship to place nose to nose stallions. They can get killed or the heandlers.
What is one to prove with this bad sportsmenship behavior? Has anybody ever looked at nature what two stallions will do to each other?
However, I met many wonderful people who write over this forum, absolutely darling folks. I saw some of their horses too, which were very nice.
But many were afraid to show, claimed their horses did not have the necks and heads which is in style today. Well, I could not see any poor necks and heads and these horses instantly one could recognize as an "Arabian Horse". that means "type" right?
All in all it was a wonderful event. Numerous people came up to me stating that they are riding now and/or their horses are under saddle. This to me is most rewarding and the beginning of an era, starting from the old one.
I guess we all are now looking forward to those four year olds next year, under saddle or in harness at the EE. It appeared to me that many owners are fed up with halter classes of nowadays, unless a better judging system is employed. I did not see one Arabian which had a bad head. So what's the problem with using the Sportshorse Judging system, eh? Horses which got higher points on type defeated better horses. Head and neck should never be judged together either, they are two different entities, as all horsemen/women know. We dont ride the head but for sure need a good neck.
I am looking forward to next year's event and hopefully many more SEs in the endurance races. I believe it was won by an SE.
and in closing, please dont eat me up over my opinion, because they are just my opinions and might differ from others,
All have a grand day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
Jun 14 2006, 08:29 PM


Unregistered


Anne-Louise,
You and I have very different opinions on what constitutes bad legs I guess. I would fault in a breeding animal or a show winner, an off-set cannon or cannons, tied in behind the knee, bad hocks, long cannon bones, toed in or out, calf kneed and even over in the knee and club feet. Bog spavins, splints etc. are also to be marked down but are not as bad as the above. This is not being mean to Suhal and if you and the others who love him think that my comments about his legs, which are not his best feature, are to be considered mean then I guess I'm an old meanie
Pick at me if it makes you all feel better but the fact remains... we need to be able to discuss legs, necks, bodies.... whatever without going into a tail spin and trying to burn the nasty ones at the stake who dare to bring up such issues!
I still think we should strive to produce better individuals that exhibit type and conformation in one package.
Start building that bonfire
Anne
ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Caryn Rogosky
Jun 14 2006, 08:35 PM


Unregistered




QUOTE(Guest_Anne_* @ Jun 14 2006, 08:18 PM)

"... I saw this horse at the Event and I was very close to him, close enough to view everything, including his legs."

Anne,
While I did see this very impressive Egyptian stallion shown at the Event last week, I regret that I did not have an opportunity to get a close enough look at his legs to permit an informed opinion on their merits/faults, and therefore I offer none. I would just like to say that while I do think this is a fair discussion, I am having a great deal of difficulty getting my teeth into what exactly troubles you about Suhair's legs. Would you please list each of the specific faults you find with as much detail as possible?
As we know, all leg faults are not created equal. Some leg faults are likely to lead to unsoundness, while others are unlikely to lead to unsoundness. From what I've read so far (and unless I've missed something), I believe your criticism of this Champion's legs has been far too general to advance the cause of intelligent debate on this important topic, or to offer readers an honest opportunity to learn anything of substance from the discussion. Though you express a desire to provoke serious thought and conversation, in my experience I've found that broad criticism which is not supported by specific data tends to be unhelpful, overall. Again, please state the details of what you consider to be flaws in the stallion's leg structure, so that readers can process/evaluate how such flaws might/might not impact a stallion's physical well being, or the well being of his potential get.
I also have a general question for people who ride their Arabians or have them competing in performance events: How often have you had them go unsound for reasons other than founder? What do you think the ratio of incidents of unsoundess in Arabians (unrelated to founder) might be when compared to horses of other breeds?
Thanks in advance.
Caryn Rogosky
Oliver
ANSWER FROM:
Becca
02:35 AM


Advanced Member

I was not at the Event. I am reading and devouring photos--living vicariously.
I have not seen the stallion in question, only the photos posted here. Most were taken at an angle.
Could someone PLEASE, for the sake of learning, explain to me what serious fatal flaws this horse exibits? It might be that my computer does not have the proper screen settings to view the photos in minute detail-- not fair to the horse and certainly frustrating for me and most likely others.
So please, I beg you, specify or drop it. It does no good, serves no educational purpose, if you just question the quality of conformation without specifying which points disturb you.


ANSWER FROM:
bartvb
06:33 AM


Advanced Senior Member


To all of you who jumped in to stop the rediculous discussion of Suhail Al Nasser I thank you. This stallion do's not deserve the comments he has received, therefor I ll not give into it.
Anna, so far I'm still in dark cloud on the problems you have with Suhails legs: Off set knees and tide in under the knee?
Many many many taller and leggier horses are tide in under the knee, something you see very typical within the egyptian arabian horse breed. If you would have a problem with that in such way you would for instence never ever have used Alidaar or some of his brothers (most likely this problem might come via Morafic) another horse you would not use would be Salaa El dine and his family. So lets follow your way and take all of the above menthioned out! Big loss for the breed right?
Secondly off set knees, if you could really not live with that you would have to take the whole Bint Bukra family and all what comes with it out: No Halim Shah, brothers, sons, daughters, .....
Now to answer your question about Al Rayyan Farm's breeding program: Sh. Abdul Aziz is with his two feet on the ground, there is in breeding horses no white, neither it should be black. There is no way ever a perfect horse can be bred, otherwise we would have all been milljonairs by now and far be retired. We could just clone that one individual, and then we even could fire the Lord from his job. Perfection do's not excist so you need to think grey and work with that whats available to you. Today in this world much is available to new and better breeding technieks (frozen semen, cooled semen, ....) So we have more options then at any point in history to do as good as job possible to try to breed an as close to perfect horse as possible. Here in Rayyan we have one logo and one logo only: Type is what stands the Arabian Horse apart from any other breed, so Sh. Abdul Aziz will never ever give into loosing that what he has now we could say succesfully reach with his program over the last 15 years. But its fragile, type is something you can loose very easely. If I look at pictures (I have albums full) from the egyptian event 15 to 7 years ago honestly I saw prettier and typier horses then most of the pictures I see now posted (baring in mind cameras got better, education of how to make a picture got better, even handlers holding the horses got better, ...)
Legs is the most challeging part to breed, so you see I do not disagree with you on that BUT its not the only thing about a horse either.
Were type is the unconditional point for us in wich we will not give in to breed less of you then need to consider head and neck , body and tpline, legs and movements. Each of these four points are items to discuss lenghtly because each individual breeder will find certain points of more importancy then the other. And as perfection do's not exist you need to weigh things off - balance and top it the way you as a breeder would like to see it.
Now as a breeder Sh. Abdul Aziz understands all this and as a student I get that as well, so do many others: perfection do's not exist but understanding do's if could just try to understand each other we could work together and use each others strong points to maybe create a better horse!
Now in your opinion Suhail maybe do's not have the best legs and a body problem but he has one hell of a good type, head and neck and for that reason I would use him. If you study his pedigree he looks exactly the way he should and that gives me trust, he has no secret agenda. Here we have an honnest stallion that looks the way he should. As a breeder I much rather prefer working with a horse like that then one who looks like a million dollar and shows nothing of his matching pedigree!
Breeding is more then just a challenge like you put it! Breeding is and endless road of understanding, a road you know is never going to end. So dont lower yourself with just calling it a challenge to reach something, because ones you reached it you might have lost it all again the next generation. Breeding is not a one generation thing, its a family thing its a generation after generation thing.
Dont take all your comments so lightly and pointing fingers at one particular horse so lightly. To get that horse to stand were he stands many breeders have build on it generation after generation. To freak out over one's horses legs the way you did is insulting to all of them, I think you have more respect then that and that you should be able to see the bigger picture here.
With all my best, Bart.

ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Anne
01:36 PM


Unregistered



Hello Becca,
I never stated that Suhal, the horse mentioned to illustrate my main point of horses with leg faults being pinned the winner of the class, had serious, or fatal leg flaws.
My point was that IMHO (this means in my humble opinion) that this horse has off-set cannon(s), one more than the other and is tied in in the knee. I also did'nt like the structure of his back legs, to me a bit post legged and of course he has a leg injury which is not considered hereditary (hind leg). Fatal no, but in a breeding class it should mean that this one would not be "#1". Did he get the winning spot due to the double points being given for type, I think so and again this is a very beautiful horse for type, something that I have stated over and over. I also stated that for me legs are very important and an ESSENTIAL part of the whole equation.
Do others place the same importance upon correct conformation as I do, obviously not if you read Bart's post about accepting leg faults to obtain type.
My comments were to point out a (again in my humble opinion) serious problem within the SE breeding and showing community. I think we have lowered our standards considerably in order to have type. Type, what type should we have?
We have a situation here in the world of SE horses whereby we have created very beautiful (no doubt) horses with very little substance, bad leg structure, no shoulder movement, can't move or even get under themselves ..... but gosh, they have type. Riding may not be important for a number of SE breeders but I think that pinning (and this pertains to more than just Suhal as the example) horses with conformation flaws, just because they had more type points over a horse with better conformation and excellent but not exotic type is degrading the breed.
All you have to do is look at what is out there... to me it is more than obvious.
This is my opinion and as far as I know everyone is entitled to have an opinion. If you and Sumerlan and Anne Louise have another opinion, fine, to each his/her own
Anne


ANSWER FROM:
Maria
Advanced Member


Dear Anne,
I think maybe everyone has heard and duly notet your humble opinion more than enough now Anne.
You do not like Suhal!
Lets move on.
Have a fine day
Maria


ANSWER FROM:
Becca

Advanced Member



The purpose of my post was simple: I wanted those who disagreed with this horses placement to publicly state their objections, rather than hinting and using the catch-all "leg fault" excuse.
it has always annoyed me to no end that people are willing to whisper about "problems" with a horse but when pressed decline to elaborate. Granted there are those of you with experience enough to see faults right away ..others are still training their eye.
Thank you Anne for elaborating..although most might not agree with you at least you clearly explained your concerns....and have left them open to rebuttal. Everyone here knows that each eye is slightly different and no two evaluations will be exactly the same. With this in mind I can collect opinions/evaluations and keep them in mind when I see this horse in person. Granted, I may end up wondering "What on earth was ____ (name your poster) thinking/looking at?"
There are obviously those who adore this horse and I admire their defense of him.
CarolM,
You are right, the posts make me want to look at him for myself...I don't think it is ever a waste of time to visit a prospective sire.
I would humbly request that in the future, if posters feel strongly about a horse then please state your name and experience and offer your observations clearly...

ANSWER FROM:
PGD
08:28 PM


Advanced Member


QUOTE
"Anne said: My question was simply why is it that horses (like Suhal in his class) with conformation faults get picked as #1?"

Answer: Because the horse without conformation faults has not been born; thus, it seems to be a no-brainer that the best horse in any Arabian horse class will be the horse with the most type and the fewest conformational faults. To pick a horse with no conformational faults as #1 would be to pick NO horse at all.
Anne, I"m interested to know who, in Suhal's class, you thought should have been first? I would be extremely interested in finding which horse in that class had no conformational faults.
Thanks,
Nancy P.


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Caryn Rogosky_* Gestern, 08:38 PM
IP: 205.188.116.11 | Beitragslink: #228|


Unregistered








QUOTE(Becca @ Jun 15 2006, 04:48 PM)
"The purpose of my post was simple: I wanted those who disagreed with this horses placement to publicly state their objections, rather than hinting and using the catch-all "leg fault" excuse.
it has always annoyed me to no end that people are willing to whisper about "problems" with a horse but when pressed decline to elaborate. Granted there are those of you with experience enough to see faults right away ..others are still training their eye.
Thank you Anne for elaborating..although most might not agree with you at least you clearly explained your concerns....and have left them open to rebuttal. Everyone here knows that each eye is slightly different and no two evaluations will be exactly the same. With this in mind I can collect opinions/evaluations and keep them in mind when I see this horse in person. Granted, I may end up wondering "What on earth was ____ (name your poster) thinking/looking at?"
There are obviously those who adore this horse and I admire their defense of him.
I would humbly request that in the future, if posters feel strongly about a horse then please state your name and experience and offer your observations clearly..."

I share Becca's perspective and would like to thank Anne for providing specifics to define her general comments as requested. At least this advances the discussion to a fair playing field, and offers the possibility for a debate which may produce some benefit to the readers...something foggy complaining rarely accomplishes.
The best way to damage a reputation (horse or human) is to plant vague seeds of suspicion without providing any definitive accusations -- no explicit accusations means explicit debate or effective defense is impossible. Even though the discussion may be ended, without proper closure negative impressions can linger endlessly. In my opinion, that is so very unfair -- to the horse and to the human's who love him...and this is why I am not a fan of shutting down a controversial discussion too prematurely.
As a strong supporter of free speech, I'll defend anyone's right to an opinion (even those I strongly disagree with). Like Becca, however, I feel that if someone is going to make highly negative comments about any horse or bloodline in a public forum, fair play and dignity are served only when such statements are accompanied by appropriate supportive detail...and the author's true, full identity.
Best Regards,
Caryn Rogosky


ANSWER FROM:
Tous crins

Senior Member


I learned from Bart comments on the Bukra lines and Morafic.
The more comments from knowledgeable people the best even if they disagree.
That is what makes Judith Forbis books learning tools, it lists descriptions of the same horse by different people in addition to her own observations and experience.
Christine

ANSWER FROM:
CarolHMaginn
Advanced Senior Member

Good point Christine!



ANSWER FROM:
DebC
Advanced Member


I think it’s safe to simply say that everyone can agree to disagree. Each of us has different opinions on faults in horses that we can and cannot accept. If a horse has a fault I cannot live with, then that particular horse will simply not be used in my program. It took me a solid year of research to find a straight Egyptian breeding stallion that not only fit my conformation and type criteria, but fit the mare I was breeding strengths and weaknesses as well. She certainly wasn’t perfect so I sought a stallion to breed to that could possibly "fix” what was needed to be fixed and not detract from the strong points I wanted to keep. I was trying to strike the best compromise I could that would give me BOTH type AND correct structure.
Quite frankly, I couldn’t care less who wins what at a horse show and that includes the Egyptian Event, which I love to attend (and am most depressed that I was too ill to go this year!). Not "dishing” any horse but they haven’t been pinning the type of horse I would breed to at US Nationals for quite a few years now. So I look elsewhere – it’s as simple as that and a title doesn’t even come into play in my selection criteria for a breeding prospect.
Now onto the part of Anne’s and Hansi’s message I DO strongly agree with – which is the importance of breeding for functional conformation AND type. I attended judges school just this past month and I am heartened to report, as Shelia Bautz did on a previous thread, that correct conformation is being very strongly emphasized as an EQUAL partner to type. Here in North America anyway, the pendulum swings quite wildly at times. There were times where you had functional conformation but type (as in coarse looking heads, thick skin, low tail carriage etc. to mention a few) was being lost, so some organizations (like the Pyramid Society) instituted a scoring system to reward type higher, in hopes to swing the pendulum back that way. Now, there is quite the outcry that we have pretty heads and necks – but that functional confirmation is being lost (and this of course includes leg issues). So a new scoring system to replace MOS is being developed in an attempt to provide a more "balanced” (as in the middle of the pendulum) assessment. While such a system will take a few years to develop, it is being developed in response to the general dissatisfaction with the present system. It also aims to provide more "transparency” in the way our Arabians are judged. The hope is that if you horse has bad legs, well – the legs scores should reflect that. Type identifies the horse as an Arabian BUT functional conformation makes the HORSE.
Having said all that, I agree with Bart and Michael Byatt that the bottom line is that you have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each individual – there is no perfect horse out there. I have a MUCH deeper respect for the difficulties in judging now that I have stood in the middle of the ring and judged (the "practical” part of the school). I had mere minutes to weigh both the good and bad of every animal presented. We have a list of leg faults (don’t have it here or I would post it but can later if you wish) and they are ranked as to the severity. Everyone has a "system” and the one I chose to employ is one that the National Reining Horse Association uses (I come from a reining background). That is you start off with every horse at the same score. For example, I start off with a perfect 10 for each horse in my mind. Then I plus or minus a horse depending on the faults and strengths I find according to the breed standard which we were handed (which is the Glady’s Brown Edward standard that most of us here in North American have seen) AND the class specifications. For me, that is honest way to go about it and should lead me to be able to justify the score I have awarded to each horse.
Cheers!
Deb C


ANSWER FROM:
Guest_Karen Henwood_*
Unregistered

The thread on The Egyptian Event Ky. started out with photos of pretty horses and "Congratulations" and such a very pleasant read. Then, along comes #43
who cast dispersions on a beautiful Class Winner. (M)anne? makes a criticism
on the winner's legs. He/she says she/he saw them up very close. Later goes on to mention back leg fault. This always happens. A typey, winning horse has only ONE jealous person start an ugly rumour about the winner. They do their best to
cast doubts on the horse's legs---that's an easy one to throw people off.
I bet this person was in the ring, or owner of a horse in the ring, and was looking up the back-side of Suhal. Or, the person has nothing to show of their own
perfect horse (s).
I, too, have nothing to do with Suhal, his owners, etc. But we all should defend
the wronged.
I admit, I have felt the sting of the jealous. The worst ones did not or do not show their perfect horses. And there is no excuse when one claims to have a great trainer nearby who is kind and very well priced. He will pick up and deliver horses.
How about some more photos and talk of the beautiful show.
Congratulations to all the winners. And a few that did not win a ribbon
but should have, we know who you are and be sure to bring those babies
back.
No matter what, you are only paying for judges assessment at that minute in the ring.
I did not agree with all of the judging. But so what. THEY are the judges.
There was a gorgeous grey mare who many, many people loved
and she should have done better imho. But I would not say anything was wrong with the winner. The judges have the final word and good sportsman-like
behavior should still be used.
I had a great time and look forward to seeing the great people and horses again next year.
Now, back to those photos and kind words, please.
Karen Henwood



ANSWER FROM:
Shemesh
Today, 03:49 AM


Advanced Member


We have a list of leg faults (don’t have it here or I would post it but can later if you wish) and they are ranked as to the severity. Deb C
Deb, I for one would like to see this list of leg faults and how they are rated.
Could you post them or email them to me privately?
Its one thing to pick a fault or a lot of them, its another to know which are most likely to affect a horse's perfromance.
By the way is there anyone who can tell me who they thought had the best conformation in the halter ring, taking into account that not all faults are even.
thanks
Rod
Oliver
ANSWER:
phanilah
Today, 04:13 AM

Senior Member

This is, by no means, meant to step on Deb's toes....'cause I think she made a lot of great points in her comments re: the Judge's School. But, since I happen to have a list from when I went through the school, albeit it 10 years ago, it might save her some work.
Guest_Marilyn Lang_*
First, it would be nice if Anne would correctly spell Suhail's name so that we are sure we are all talking about the same horse.

I first saw Suhail when he had only been in this country about three weeks. He was not in great condition which was to be expected. I also detected that he seemed to have had an injury in one of his back legs but boy did this guy impress me, both with his movement and his fire. The head was to die for with those huge luminous eyes that are difficult to achieve in one's breeding program and I feel a very important part of the history and character of the Arabian horse, especially the Egyptian Arabian horse. I don't remember seeing any front leg faults that were so serious, I would not consider breeding a mare to Suhail. To be perfectly honest, very few straight Egytian horses have perfect front leg conformation. I saw many Egyptian horses at this year's Event with front leg faults that I would not want to incorporate into my breeding program but Suhail was not one of them. His movement is breathtaking and partly because he has such lovely type and spirit. Michael has done a superb job conditioning Suhail and did an excellent job showing him in his class. I did see all the other horses in Suhail's class and he was the obvious winner IMHO. I was so impressed, I purchased the EBC breeding to Suhail. All of my mares have almost flawless leg conformation, huge eyes and short backs. What they need is more leg, a little more stretch and some fire. All are quite layed back with in your pocket dispositions. Phenotypically, he is the perfect match for many of my mares. Of course, having Bukra in his pedigree gives my heart an extra beat.

I agree, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion but hate to see anyone pick on one horse in particular. I think it would have been better to just say that poor front leg conformation was very evident at this year's EE and what can we do to correct this problem rather than single out one horse. I might also mention that the owners of this horse are fantastic long time supporters of the Egyptian horse and the EE. When you critisize a particular horse on a public forum, it is demeaning and hurtful to the owners and breeders. I just don't find that necessary nor do I find it educational.

Marilyn Lang
Sumerlan
Quote
How sad, how sad, how sad.....these lovely, spirited, proud horses are subjected to the cruelest of criiticisms by probably quite unattractive humans...

Why can't we get past our personal dislikes and appreciate these wonderful animals for what they are...for the beauty most of us will never hope to attain? (I don't have very good legs either--and I'm not even a tenth as beautiful as a stallion like Suhail al Nasser!)

Don't all of you who post such depressing attacks on these threads ever worry about what you are doing to destroy the happiness and joy others find in their horses?

If you have children, take a good look at them. Are they perfect? Do they have perfect legs, teeth, eyes, ears, hair, etc.? I would think most have some faults....well, some folks feel the same way about their horses as you do your children.

How would you like it if someone posted such cruel statements about your children on an internationally popular forum?

There is no perfect horse, or child, or piece of art, or even a snowflake. ...

Scottsdale has its devotees and its detractors...so does the Event. Sad we can't learn to celebrate the differences rather than criticize them!

Allison of Talaria

End Quote


My sentiments precisely. Thank you Oliver and Aleksi for sidelining this discussion.

And just for the record folks, Karen Henwood and Ron Shimer are without a doubt - two of the finest people in our industry - and, that I have the honor to call my friends. If you ever have the opportunity to speak to either of them, you will be amazed with their level of commitment and to their many kindnesses. Both experienced horsemen, and breeders of Farid Nile Moon and Deserree, the Egyptian Event Unanimous Supreme Champion Stallion & Unanimous Supreme Champion Mare...

Sumerlan
phanilah
QUOTE
First, it would be nice if Anne would correctly spell Suhail's name so that we are sure we are all talking about the same horse.


Just FYI for anyone trying to look him up in the DataSource and didn't see Allison's earlier response to my question about the spelling....in the AHA DataSource, it is spelled "Suhal Al Nasser", due to some type of spelling error during the AHA registration process.

For those interested in seeing some photos from his pedigree: {clicking on images will show them larger}

Here is foal shot of his maternal grandsire, Imperial Mahzeer



Here is a foal shot of his maternal granddam, Imperial Kaliya



Here is a younger shot of Mahzeer's dam, Maar Bilahh (although I'm the first to admit I have yet to see a photo of this incredibly lovely mare that really does her justice....especially her head and eyes)



Enjoy! smile.gif

Beth
Maria
here is another picture taken in Qatar of Imperial Kaliya.
Maria
here is a very old picture of the dam, Konouz Al Nasser,.
I believe Hendrik Mens has some new photos of her, perhaps he can post a couple.
Maria
A baby pic of the little lad.
HLM
Dear Posters, dear friends

I again read all your posts and must say, that some are way off track.

To put beauty over functioability is dooming a breed as a "Horse". A horse manager having this attitude, can not possibly be a horsemen.

Why do some become champions ?With what I see poor conformation is overuled by extra points for type AND THAT MUST STOP!!!!
There is where the problem lies, the judging point system.
Stating that the Russian judge knows what he is doing, darn right he does, but did he know of this unfair point system? I know of at least one renowned judge who did not and was in shock when horses won, based on those extra points, such judge would have never placed the horses as it ended up.

And what type are we talking about? Has anybody ever seen a true desert bred, including photos- with a fishhead (Pikehead)??? I searched and searched some more, and never have seen it. It is breeding for it and sacrificing often other things.

When it comes to legs, and I am a leg person, I want those tendons lying so clean and free as a nountain stream, that I could pick each one out with my fingers, front and behind. I want to see a tremendous hip and gaskin, well located so when the horse moves, his hocks should be vertical, almost hitting his butt, not like lingering behind. I want to see clean ancles, (Joints) befitting the size of the horse. I want to see the cannon bone above the ancle and below the knee fit at least 2,5 times into the forearm, starting from above the knee. I want to see that forarm in a nice V-shape, well muscled and such good muscling all over its body. and I want to see a deep girth and well packed whithers. And I want to see a slight angulation behind. And I want to see large round hoofs infront with a wall wide enough to hold a shoe and the hind hoofs only slightly ovaled. And I want to see "Balance"!

Now if Suhail's legs etc fit into this, well then we have a good conformation horse with super legs- a "20".

However, to lay all thinking, wishing, surmising to rest let us see this beutiful horse in the next year's 25 mile endurance race. It takes 4 months to train him for that, is a cake walk a pony could do, and whatever he will do will remove all doubts or otherwise.
But will he be allowed, will the owners/trainers dare? What excuses might come up if he does not enter? I assure you if challenged "Amiin" be there, and that could be the horse to beat.

therefore I am challenging you to let all of us watch this beautiful stallion
doing his thing.

And yes, the halter classes are "Breeding classes" and not "Model classes" for which there are other rules.

and to the rest of you all, when you see a horse always ask yourself" Can I ride this horse over and through anything? If the answer is no, then you have an ornament, and most certainly, most definitely not breeding stock.

Now this is my humble opinion, my lifelong experiences with almost all breeds under my seat, and in stress riding. so let's wait and see what will happen at the next event, eh? Should we hold our breath?

All have a wonderful time and I personally appreciate the opinions expressed,to which you all are entitled- without fear!!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Majid
Maria and Beth,

Thank you both for posting the photos of the ancestors of Suhal ( Suhail). I saw him at the Event and he is certainly a striking young stallion, and he has much to add to the breed.

Of course I am slightly biased, in that I own Badraan, who has almost the exact pedigree of Kanouz, the dam of Suhal, but in reverse. Kanouz is by Imperial Mahzeer, out of an Imperial Al Kamar daughter.

Badraan is a 2003 colt, by Imperial Al Kamar, out of imperial Mahzeera - a full sister to Mahzeer.

I am having a photographer visit before too long to get photo's which I will share.

Majid
Delyth
I'm glad this topic has been moved and given a slot of its own.

You know when you breed horses you forgive certain traits. The perfect horse just doesn't exist - OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this. We are entitled to our opinions also so why do these people more than any impose their views on us with such hostility.

I don't think 'Anne's' comments warrant such a fuss because she couldn't say what the faults were. Had no one risen then wouldn't she have sounded clever ?

He looks a stunning horse and what an exciting prospect for breeders - embrace him with enthusiasm and stop the petty negativity fuelled by envy !!
heidip

Dr Daniel Wigger
I really am wondering about the many, many people who dare to judge about the anatomy and biomechanics of horse's legs without any profound knowledge behind. Actually judging of horse legs without a knowledgable horse vet assisting is like to set the fox to keep the geese ... ph34r.gif
Sumerlan
Hansi:

For purposes of learning, when was the last time you saw a score of 20 for legs? In years past, I believe the highest score I've seen has been 17 or 17.5 at the most.

Sumerlan
Alice
QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Jun 16 2006, 08:19 PM)
Actually judging of horse legs without a knowledgable horse vet assisting is like to set the fox to keep the geese ...  ph34r.gif
*


With all due respect this is just your own opinion. In consequence this mean no judge at a show can give proper leg marks withou a horse vet at his/her side? Strange thoughts.
Abbasiyah
What was that song... Where fools fear to tread, or was it where fools rush in where wise me fear to tread?
In any case, I wanted to post that I think that we should be breeding for type as well as for conformation and Anne did state that she thought this horse had off-set cannons and was tied in behind the knees. How many actually know what that is?

Just for the sake of education or to help further education (or not laugh.gif ) I have cut out of some of my older photos some leg shots from the side and one from the front. Sorry, I won't actually identify the owners of the legs for fear of being received like Anne but maybe, just maybe we can see what an off-set cannon is and what a tied in behind the knee is. Early in the posting MB stated that he would put pictures of this horse's legs up on the forum and that would be the best thing to silence the critics (or not laugh.gif ).

Of the photos here, cropped from photos in my collection (and shall remain nameless for safety sake ph34r.gif ph34r.gif ), only one is tied in behind the knee. Can you identify which one?

As for the off-set cannons, I only had one example and unfortunately most of my photos are from the side so I didn't have a good example photo of a nice straight cannon. Does anyone else have an example photo of a nice straight cannon, if so please post it up here so that we can look at it.

Please, if anyone recognizes the legs ( and I hope not) do not identify the horse so that we can stay on track and not get personal.

Judi

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Abbasiyah
laugh.gif That should have been where wise men fear to tread and not wise me!! But then again I was fearful for myself so maybe it was one of those Freudian slips!

Judi
heidip
# 3
Abbasiyah
OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this

Delyth... I sincerely hope that we don't have to give up breeding Arabians and go to warmbloods or thoroughbreds just to get good legs unsure.gif

Judi
Arabs4ever
There is a simple way to solve this debate, just post some pics of the stallions legs and then we can all judge for ourselves.

Mr Byatt says he has good legs and Anne says he has offset canons and tied in below the knee, for all those who has said that Anne did not define her problem with this stallions legs, I read very early on and in several posts where she clearly states what she saw or thought she saw.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Anne your only mistake was to name the horse, this should not have been done, as it does put a bad impression on what you are tying to say, but then had you not mentioned a horses name you probably would not have had much discussion.

So Mr Byatt I know it is unfair that you have tol prove Anne wrong, but perhaps you should take this opportunity to correct what she is said if indeed she is incorrect.

Gail
phanilah
QUOTE
OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this


I'm really hoping that just didn't come out quite right - otherwise IMHO the idea that Arabians aren't supposed to be strong in structure is pertty scary.

Beth
phanilah
QUOTE (Abbasiyah @ Jun 16 2006, 11:04 PM)
laugh.gif  That should have been where wise men fear to tread and not wise me!!  But then again I was fearful for myself so maybe it was one of those Freudian slips!

Judi
*


LOL - well, there's also "fools rush in where angels fear to tread". wink.gif

Beth
Frustrated
QUESTION:
Who is "Anne"???? ph34r.gif

Another Quacker please
HLM
Dear Sumerland

O but such legs exist and that in many breeds. You either have correct legs or you dont. one simply has to learn- by comparrison which is which.
I have seen legs on arabian endurance horses I could easily give a "20".
I feel, if the leg structure is sound including the important hoofs, than a "20" is deserving. If a ahorse has detrimental faults, meaning you could not possible ask it to be ridden all over the place, than it deserves a "o".
What good is it if the front is so bad that the tendons will blow, or the kind putting pressure on the knees and shoulder and with it the horse goes lame.
What good is it if the hocks are so flimpsy with little gaskin to support it,and the cannon bone put in wrong, easily creating those painful wind puffs or bogs, that also deserves a "O" because such horse also will break down when being worked. One simply cant get a little bit pregnant, either you are or you are not! I know Liz does not like me to judge so "rudely/hurtingly" but gee weez how else can I discribe what can become a highly frustrating lamness- sometimes for ever. When you put a saddle and man on top of the horse, some weighing over 200 lbs, you better have a sound legged horse with proper conformation of the legs , as otherwise such rider be walking home after one mile. surely we are supposed to breed horses one can ride and not just look at, or?

Its like having a cup or plate with a crack, but still not broken. Give it half a chance and it will.

this goes for the rest of conformation. What would a difference be between 19 and 20 for a shoulder, rearend etc? Its either there or it is not. Would that "1" point difference mean hairs are missing? I truly can not see this point system in this fashion at all. And then comes this "type" business.
I have seen many georgeous type horses at the event, yet would not give a dime for them because their overal conformation was poor including legs. It would take God's best designed mare or stallion to correct this, and would take 4 generations to do it too, may be never.

If one wants a horse for stress work, dressage, hunting, jumping, racing etc than we better have a good conformation all over, otherwise we never get to win anything.

Now if we were to judge mutton whithers,shallow girth, weak hocks, offset cannons, pony hoofs in size, what does one do with such a horse?? Look at it?

Now, I have seen hoofs which make me shudder. On yearlings the size of weanlings, on two year olds the size of ten months olds, and many in oval shape infront, absolutely impossible to carry the horse on such through heavy terrain. But then a rider of consequence would know this. Some ancles like ball bearings, some you hardly notice, each one will or can create lamness.

We all can talk until we are blue in the face, the clue comes when you sit on top and ride hard. Just wonder how those cowboys of the past did it, riding fences, cattle (no I dont mean factually riding a fence or a cow) I mean checking fence lines and or herding cattle etc. If they would use unsound conformation structure, they be riding 5 minutes and rest in the sun all day and be fired.

But how can one be educated in all this? By comparrison ONLY, BY TESTING.
But even the soundest conformation horse can be a fluke, having no stamina,
courage, recovery rae, or quit half way down the road.

this is why "breeding classes" were established for the show ring and entries critically correct judged. Sentiments, who is who, love or hate simply dont belong there. When a good trainer can take a mule into an arab class and makes it look like an arab with all the cosmetics involved, all reasoning stops. Now please, I am not referring here to any horse shown, just a matter of speaking it is.

I often wondered what some trainers would do if they had to take a horse under their seat to save their life having to ride fast and long distance. would they take one of those halter champions they created or go down the road to a small breeder renting theirs? Good question, eh?

By giving generous points it is not helping at all, it gives false impressions.
By perluting true scores with multiple extra points for type it has created exactly what we are facing today. Those of you who were at the show will have seen many georgeous heads. Which one now is typier, how does one make a selection? Not only this, we now for some time actually perpetuate it all by having a "Most classic head class" the rest of the horses under a blanket. What nonsence is this please? Which one would you, I or others chose?
Most all would get either a first place ribbon or none at all, selection by personal taste, like Marilyn Monroe versa Jane Russel.

Anyway, may be I am getting too old to understand this system which has in my opinion no rythm or rhyme because of the point system. I truly feel sorry for the judges and more so for many an illconformed, created horse.

My opinion again
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
CarolHMaginn
I've deleted the photos that my friend asked me to post because I don't want any of my posts to be used to hurt anyone.. That is not my intention when I posted them.
HLM
Well Alice, do all judges give proper scores ?? Dr Wigger is ocrrect, because then also the hoofs be tested and you might be amazed how many would flinch for pain, something you might not see when the horse moves.

Bu this of course would go a little too far in the ring, timewise, otherwise, so lets settle for "the eye sees".

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Salmon
Hansi, after judging many many shows, I realised a very long time ago that there are degrees of faults. Some faults are fairly minor in degree and others major. For instance, I've seen really long cannons and others that are very slightly too long (1/2 inch maybe)—likewise the degree of angles in the shoulder and pasterns. I saw a really bad set of offset cannons this week when evaluating 25 horses, and one set that were very very slightly offset. I score according to the degree of faults. Maybe the hip could be an inch longer and so on.

You know that I'm a great advocate of riding Arabians. Having judged rdden classes in the UK, when I had to ride numerous horses in one day, then look at their conformation, taught me an enormous amount about form to function. I've been teaching about conformation for many years including at University level, when we had a vet. to instruct alongside me as well.
HLM
Dear Carol

these photos are very bad examples, there all four legs are not that good.
It looks if the forarms are too short, the joints not clean, tendons not clean, hocks not clean. these photos are unfair to the horse. If these were showing in truth the conformation, I think we better not ride that 25miler, not even a one miler. dont you have some photos where it does not distord?

Now Bart and Michael claimed all four are excellent legs. Surely they have to agree with me that these photos make them questionable.

I missed meeting you at the EE. My loss I guess.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dearest Liz

Pleae forgive me, in no way did I mean or have marked your creditability. You know that I highyl respect you.

I agree with the explanation you gave. But these are not detrimental faults you mentioned but indeed deserve lesser points.

Thanks for the explanation
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Becca
*dabbing at scratches on head and neck, applying burn cream to ears*

After an evening and day of fielding emails and phone calls--from very irate people with colorful vocabularies---I feel I need to at least attempt to clarify my involvement with this conversation. I am not the most handy writer in the world and have difficulty making myself clear, so here goes.....

Since the Event there had been what I called "whispers" concerning this horse and his conformation. These rumors/whispers described absolutely horrid things--I could not imagine anyone even thinking of showing with the rumored problems--hence my request to Anne share her observations.

Annes reply concerning offset cannon, slight post legged (her words) was so much more mild compared to the rumors that had been flying about that I was relieved by her response.

I agree that the posts should have been placed elsewhere, in a different thread, and regret not the content of my posts but the placement. For that I apologize. I will stand by the content of my posts with the inner knowledge that I was not motivated by jealousy or sheer meanness. I simply wanted to make sure the horse was described fairly, not as some nightmare.
CarolHMaginn
Hansi,

Sorry I missed meeting you.. I'm sure it was my loss actually. I was running around and had to leave early. I also didn't even have a chance to take any photos of Suhal or the other champions since I left before the championships. Marilyn Lang told me she saw you at the party for Tom McNair and I wondered how I could have missed you as I was taking photos and never saw you... Of course - I didn't know what you looked like - so I could have seen you and not known it.


I'm going to respectfully extract myself from the conversation on Suhal and I will not post any more photo related to this topic. I don't want any of my posts to be used to hurt anyone.

Hansi - again I'm so sorry that I did miss you as I really wanted to meet "the legend" behind the posts... Perhaps next year...

Carol


QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 16 2006, 10:27 PM)
Dear Carol

these photos are very bad examples, there all four legs are not that good.
It looks if the forarms are too short, the joints not clean, tendons not clean, hocks not clean. these photos are unfair to the horse. If these were showing in truth the conformation, I think we better not ride that 25miler, not even a one miler. dont you have some photos where it does not distord?

Now Bart and Michael claimed all four are excellent legs. Surely they have to agree with me that these photos make them questionable.

I missed meeting you at the EE. My loss I guess.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*
deby
QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 16 2006, 06:59 PM)
Why do some become champions ?With what I see poor conformation  is overuled by extra points for type AND THAT MUST STOP!!!!
There is where the problem lies, the judging point system.
Stating that the Russian judge knows what he is doing, darn right he does, but did he know of this unfair point system? I know of at least one renowned judge who did not and was in shock when horses won, based on those extra points, such judge would have never placed the horses as it ended up.

And what type are we talking about? Has anybody  ever seen a true desert bred, including photos- with a fishhead (Pikehead)??? I searched and searched some more, and never have seen it. It is breeding for it and sacrificing often other things.

When it comes to legs, and I am a leg person, I want those tendons lying so clean and free as a nountain stream, that I could pick each one out with my fingers, front and behind. I want to see a tremendous hip and gaskin, well located so when the horse moves, his hocks should be vertical, almost hitting his butt, not like lingering behind. I want to see clean ancles, (Joints) befitting the size of the horse. I want to see the cannon bone above the ancle and below the knee fit at least 2,5 times into the forearm, starting from above the knee. I want to see that forarm in a nice V-shape, well muscled and such good muscling all over its body. and I want to see a deep girth and well packed whithers. And I want to see a slight angulation behind. And I want to see large round hoofs infront with a wall wide enough to hold a shoe and the hind hoofs only slightly ovaled. And I want to see "Balance"!

Now if Suhail's legs etc fit into this, well then we have a good conformation horse with super legs- a "20".

However, to lay all thinking, wishing, surmising to rest let us see this beutiful horse in the next year's 25 mile endurance race. It takes 4 months to train him for that, is a cake walk a pony could do,  and whatever he will do will remove all doubts or otherwise.
But will he be allowed, will the owners/trainers dare? What excuses might come up if he does not enter? I assure you if challenged "Amiin" be there, and that could be the horse to beat.

therefore I am challenging you to let all of us watch this beautiful stallion
doing his thing.

And yes, the halter classes are "Breeding classes" and not "Model classes" for which there are other rules.

and to the rest of you all, when you see a horse always ask yourself" Can I ride this horse over and through anything? If the answer is no, then you have an ornament, and most certainly, most definitely not breeding stock.


*

Hansi, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I must ask, what exactly are you recommending, that all classes that do not have a horse with perfect legs should be cancelled? Weither this horse has bad legs or not (I have no idea) he was the best in his class, thats all there is to it. Do you think since his legs are not perfect that they should have simply dropped the class? I don't, as many have said, there is no such thing as a perfect horse, and he obviously exemplified what the judges wanted most or else he would not have won.

Congrats to him and his owners!
Deby
CarolHMaginn
Well I explained to Judy Guess what was said after I posted her photos of Suhal, and that for that reason I removed the photos, and she asked me to please repost them and add her comments as well.

Judi is a well respected breeder who doesn't easily shy away from anyone when she knows she is in the right.

For those of you you don't know Judy Guess (if there is anyone out there who doesn't know her) - I should probably tell you that she is a breeder of many champion arabian horses across the globe...

She bred Farid Nile Dream - 2003 Egyptian Event Champion World Class Fillies of 2001 - who is now owned by DeShazer Arabians. Judy also has bred this year's Champion Senior Mare - of the Sharjah 2006 National Show - Mmecca - who was purchased by Al Zobair Stud, HE Sheikh Abdullah bin Mohammed Al Thani/UAE. Her client list is extremely impressive for someone who is so modest. She has had rulers of countries, as well as many other breeders seeing the ultimate champion arabian horse come to her farm - right here in the town of Harper, TX. Her reputation for breeding top notch champion horses is world recognized, and she only breeds about 2 horses per year. She is extremely well educated and actually is a public school teacher.

Below are Judy's comments - and the re-posted photos she took of Suhal...


Subject: Suhail
Date: June 17, 2006 12:09:15 AM CDT

Absolutely not!!!!! Those photos show overall good conformation and type. There is no way ANYONE could use those photos as a "leg study". You would have to be close to the horse and on the same level as the legs. There is NO WAY to take a picture up in the "stands" that doesn't "distort " the legs to some degree !!! This is an Unbelievable, endless discussion in "trashing" a horse and "trashing" people who state opposing positions! That is one reason why I don't always go to SE to read so called "discusssions".

..............and you can say that I said so!!!! I rode and started my own horses for years before one flipped over with me...but I believe in looking at the conformation as a "whole" and if doesn't have Arabian "type", I don't want it in my breeding barn. I want my horses to exemplify what the breed is supposed to be. If I were in another breed, I would be breeding for "that" type plus good overall conformation.

Judy
CarolHMaginn
Hansi,

Would you mind posting photos of the champion horses you have bred that possess both exotic type and conformation (leg, body, etc...) which you are emphasizing the importance of?

This would be very educational to all of us to see what you breed and consider the "ideal arabian". And really I think sometime a picture can be worth 1000 words.

Thanks so much,

Carol
Arabs4ever
I think Judi is being kind and also politically correct, I am an absolutely no body and have no political connections I own one SE mare and I would hate it if my horse was up for criticism, as I know it would fail miserably, but lets face it, I think Anne has been correct in her observations, I bought the photo onto my photoshop program and enlarged the legs, he looks tied in below the knee to me and he does look offset as well I am sorry, I know photos can tell lies, so perhaps if someone could post better photos of the legs would be a good idea.

He also looks short and round in the croup but has a great shoulder and neck and a beautiful face, his hind quarter looks like it drops away sort of lacking muscle on either side of the croup heading back to the dock bone, I wouldn't say he had excellent conformation but her does appear to have some very good points as well

I think other people are right when they say you have to look at the whole picture and weigh the good up against the bad

Gail
Maria
I am apalled and horrified that this is still going on.
That now his muscle mass, croup, hind quarters ect, is under the microscope. PLEASE everyone, GROW UP!!
He won his class at the EE not the world championships!
Roumours have now started with him having horrifying defects, I am getting E-Mails and calls from people to confirm these horrible faults, this is redicolous!!
Why was he not attacked like this last year when he won at the event, or the year before??
I mean, if he is such a walking disaster it should have been picked up a long time ago.
Anne, I hope you are happy with the result of your visious attack on this horse, and that you reached your goal, whatever that may have been.
I hope you sleep well at night.

Yours
Maria
Liz Salmon
Here is a photo that I took of him at ground level and I walked all the way around him. IMO he has a lovely topline, good slope of shoulder, short back, level croup and long hip. I like his depth of heart girth, his clean throat latch and shape and set of his neck. He has long well muscled gaskins and large correctly angled and well let down hocks. He has long well muscled forearms and short cannons—maybe could be 1/2 inch shorter. His pasterns are correctly angled.

I did not see offset cannons, but he is slightly tied in below the knees—a fault I frequently see all over the world.His front feet are not quite a matched pair—another common fairly minor fault. His tail is very well set and carried and he moves well, also having a good overstride at the walk. His head is well proportioned and typey, eyes large and small well set ears.

I see no reason to denigrate this lovely stallion, I could see myself riding him with a lot in front of the saddle.
HLM
Dear Carol

thank you, ou are very sweet. Yes I regret it too, so may be next time or sooner -may be at some sporshorse events? I was so disappointed when the EASHA was cancelled and had to go to canada Saturday nnoon- it is an over 6 hour trip.

I know you meant so well with those photos, and I so often said, photos can be so destorting, to the good or bad. that's why we dont send any out and recommend to see hroses in the flesh.

If you are in Florida, please come and be our guest.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Debby

Now, you read my posts again and then read your own reply. We must not go to the extreme, who ever said to cancel classes because horses have bad legs etc?
Sometimes this kind of misunderstanding can create harm. I realize, written things dont have a tone nor facial expression, which often leads to misunderstandings.I always try to fin the good in things, and when not sure,aqsked for an explanation.

Your statement he was the best in his class can also be misunderstood.
did you mean because he became champion by an unorxedoxed judging/point system, or because in fact he was? I did not see the class, so cant judge either.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Carol

In all due respect I disagree a bit with that classic type, as arabians are supposed to be. you will not find one Desertbred horse - true-blue desert bred- even closely resembling what is called classic type of today. You wont find Shepherd dogs in the past sitting on rabbit legs either.
(Please dont translate rabbit legs now with horses, I beg of you)

the classic type would actually be the "true Desert Bred" and what I see is far removed from it. The Model "T-" car produced by Ford is a "Classic".
Again far removed from our nowaday cars.

May be I misunderstand the terminology? there are so many types, but in my opinion it is the "silhouette" which recognizes the breed, not the head.

I got to get someone to come and help me post photos, so that you and others again can see "our type" which we think are very type, beautiful but also quite correct and bred for both, beauty and functioability. The latter is a must for me during these 40 years, being a rider and a connosoir. those people who come here and bought horses all are experienced horsemen/woman and appear to agree.
But all this is neither here nor there, and we certainly cant continue a fad when various other types like the Babson, Doyles, Pritzlafs, Plumgroves,
Gleannloch etc etc are suddenly outcasted. But then by whom, eh?

It is obvious that we all have our likes and dislikes, which is great, otherwise we all would have the same horse in the barn, which would be terrible. But what we must start a bit more disliking is a pretty horse with poor conformation and in particular legs, because no leg, no horse, no tires no car. It's just a simple as that, unless someone likes and wants a garden ornament.

Have a real nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
thank you dear Liz for this photo.

You all now see how different photos cn make a horse look different. On it I now see the forearm being a bit short, by about 4-5 inches. But again it could be the photo. I trust your observation more than others, of course, so some day I will see the horse in the flesh. But here you also see "no nowadays classic type" as I see in other photos. I guess it also has a lot today with how the horse is stood up.

when a horse is tied in under the knees, to me this is a bad fault, when one tendon overlays the other. That spells trouble, regardless of the degree, I feel. Have seen too many breaking down when used in stress performance.

However, the proof lies in the pudding, so may be the horses after all can enter that 25miler next year. Actually all halter horses should sooner or later, dont you think? Then we can test many a thing, which to me is most important on any horse.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
CarolHMaginn
Dear Arabs4ever,

You must not know Judy very well... tongue.gif She is a rebel to the core - she doesn't do political correctness.
Carol

QUOTE (Arabs4ever @ Jun 17 2006, 01:35 AM)
I think Judi is being kind and also politically correct, I am an absolutely no body and have no political connections I own one SE mare and I would hate it if my horse was up for criticism, as I know it would fail miserably, but lets face it, I think Anne has been correct in her observations, I bought the photo onto my photoshop program and enlarged the legs, he looks tied in below the knee to me and he does look offset as well I am sorry, I know photos can tell lies, so perhaps if someone could post better photos of the legs would be a good idea.

He also looks short and round in the croup but has a great shoulder and neck and a beautiful face, his hind quarter looks like it drops away sort of lacking muscle on either side of the croup heading back to the dock bone, I wouldn't say he had excellent conformation but her does appear to have some very good points as well

I think other people are right when they say you have to look at the whole picture and weigh the good up against the bad

Gail
*
Liz Salmon
Hansi, if the forearms were 4-5 inches too short they would reach down almost to his fetlocks !! Surely you didn't mean that ? I know that all the stallions at Michaels are ridden around the farm, so I'm sure they will do the same with Suhall.

I also have to say that a totally flat croup is somewhat unfunctional, for me it has to be slightly rounded.
CarolHMaginn
Hansi,

I look forward to seeing your photos posted of your ideal arabian. If you need any help at all just let me know - you can email them to me at info@bearcreek-ranch.com and I can post them for you if you would like. I can't wait to see them.

Thanks,

Carol


QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 17 2006, 07:22 AM)
Dear Carol

In all due respect I disagree a bit with that classic type, as arabians are supposed to be. you will not find one Desertbred horse - true-blue desert bred- even closely resembling what is called classic type of today. You wont find Shepherd dogs in the past sitting on rabbit legs either.
(Please dont translate rabbit legs now with horses, I beg of you)

the classic type would actually be the "true Desert Bred" and what I see is far removed from it. The Model "T-" car produced by Ford is a "Classic".
Again far removed from our nowaday cars.

May be I misunderstand the terminology? there are so many types, but in my opinion it is the "silhouette" which recognizes the breed, not the head.

I got to get someone to come and help me post photos, so that you and others again can see "our type" which we think are very type, beautiful but also quite correct and bred for both, beauty and functioability. The latter is a must for me during these 40 years, being a rider and a connosoir. those people who come here and bought horses all are experienced horsemen/woman and appear to agree.
But all this is neither here nor there, and we certainly cant continue a fad when various other types like the Babson, Doyles, Pritzlafs, Plumgroves,
Gleannloch etc etc are suddenly outcasted. But then by whom, eh?

It is obvious that we all have our likes and dislikes, which is great, otherwise we all would have the same horse in the barn, which would be terrible. But what we must start a bit more disliking is a pretty horse with poor conformation and in particular legs, because no leg, no horse, no tires no car. It's just a simple as that, unless someone likes and wants a garden ornament.

Have a real nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
*
deby
Hansi,
My point was that you are implying that every horse there had bad legs, and how this should not be acceptable, if it is not acceptable, then there is no other option then to assume you mean to cancel classes like this, or you except the judges to not place a single class since I have yet to see any horse with "Perfect" legs....
And I was not there at the show, all I know about it is what I have read here, and it seems he got the highest points from the judges, therefore, it is very easy to assume he was the best in his class.

And please Hansi, we all know very well that you are filled with wisdom and experience, but it is not educational for any of us to simply hear "...bad conformation" "bad legs" "our horses are far from 'desert bred' type" without you showing us pictures of what you find to be perfect legs, or perfect conformation. Weither it is your horses or not, please enlighten all of us here with a photo of "perfect legs." No sarcasim meant, but it really becomes a burden reading post after post of how horrible things are without ever showing us the good too...
Deby
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