Dear Forum:

It is always good in the summer, to stretch one's mind. How about a thoughtful discussion on the stallion, ANTAR (Hamdan x Obeya)?



Antar was a son of Hamdan, a full brother to Shaloul and Samira, 3 of the 4 members of Judi Forbis' "FABULOUS FOUR" (the other member was Radwan). Antar was a favorite horse of King Farouk, at whose studfarm, Inshass, was home to some of Egypt's finest horses. In 1952, when King Farouk was overthrown, most of these beautiful Arabians were sold at auction. However, some of the horses, including the stallions Sameh and Antar were sent to the EAO. Antar was a popular sire at the EAO, siring well over 50 foals, out of the choicest Egyptian mares. I believe that Antar's fame, like Alaa El Din, was made through his daughters, who far out-classed his sons.

Judith Forbis saw Antar in Egypt and she shares the following observation:



Here is the progeny list, by dam (alphabetically):

ABLA (Nazeer x Helwa)
(1) ADAWEYA grey Mare 1970
(2) EIN grey mare
(3) EMAN grey Mare 1963
(4) LOOZA/LUZA grey mare 1969
(5) NAGAT grey Mare 1960
(6) RASHIKA grey Mare 1962
(7) SOMAIA mare 1965

AHLAM (Sid Abouhom x Bint Zareefa)
(1) CLEOPATRAA black Mare 1960

AYDA (Nazeer x Lateefa)
(1)ASHOUR grey colt 1971
(2) WADI bay Colt 1964

BADRIA ()
(1) BANDONG chestnut colt 1957

BASIMA (Alaa El Din x Sherifa)
(1)BASSAMA chestnut Mare 1971
(2)SALEEMA/SELEEMA chestnut Mare 1972

BINT BINT MABROUKA (Sid Abouhom x Bint Mabrouka)
(1)MARIAM bay Mare 1964
(2)RAKIA chestnut Mare 1963
(3)ROKAYA Mare

BINT EL SAMRAA (Mekdam x El Samraa)
(1)IBN ANTER chestnut Colt 1963 ANTER

BINT ELWYA (Sid Abouhom x Zareefa)
(1) ANSATA BINT ELWYA grey mare 1961

BINT KATEEFA (Sid Abouhom x Kateefa)
(1) BINT BINT KATEEFA chestnut Mare 1960
(2) BASIL colt 1966

BINT MAYSOUNA (Nazeer x Maysouna)
(1) NAAMA4 grey Mare 1961

BINT MONA (Nazeer x Mouna)
(1) IBN ANTAR/IBN ANTER grey colt 1964

BINT OM EL SAAD (Nazeer x Om El Saad)
(1) SERAG chestnut Colt 1972

EL AMEERA (Nazeer x Zaafarana)
(1) FERIAL chestnut Mare 1961

FARASHA (Alaa El Din x Yosreia)
(1)NABILAH/NABILAHH grey Mare 1960

FATIN (Nazeer X Nefisa)
(1)JEHAN grey Mare 1959

GALILA (Sid Abouhom x Rouda)
(1) MAMDOUH Colt 1960

HELWA (Hamran II x Bint Farida)
(1) FAHIDD chestnut Colt 1961

KAMAR (Nazeer x Komerira)
(1) KAHRAMANA grey Mare 1966
(2) SAAB grey colt 1963
(3) WAHAG grey Colt 1964

LATEEFA (Gamil III x Salwa)
(1)MAHBOUBA chestnut mare 1963

MABROUKA (Sid Abouhom x Moniet El Nefous)
(1) MUBARK grey colt 1970

MAHFOUZA (Hamdan x El Mahrousa)
(1) MAYSA chestnut Mare 1955

MAMLOUKA (Nazeer x Malaka)
(1) FIFI Mare 1963

MAYSOUNA (Kheir x Shams)
(1) TAHSEEN/ TAHSIN bay colt 1964

NAEEMA (Ramses Fayek x Tifla)
(1) EL YATEEMA chestnut Mare 1971

NEAMAT (Morafic x Hemmat)
(1) NIHAL chestnut Mare 1966

NAZEERA (Nazeer x Malaka)
(1)BINT NAZEERA grey Mare 1968
(2)HAMDIA/HAMIDA mare 1959
(3)KAWMIA grey Mare 1965

NAZIC (Morafic x Rashida)
(1) AABER/ABER bay colt

RAGHA (Adham x Ragaa)
(1) RASMIA bay mare 1952

SAMIA (Nazeer x Malaka)
(1) HEKMAT chestnut Mare 1961
(2) SERENITY SAGDA grey Mare 1966

SHAHRZADA (Nazeer x Yosreia)
(1) BINT EL NIL/BINT EL NILE chestnut Mare 1963
(2) IBN SHAHRZADA chestnut colt 1964
(3) IBN SHARZADA Colt 1960
(4) SERENITY SHAHRA/SERENITY SHAHARA grey Mare 1966
(5) DAWLAT chestnut Mare 1961

SHERA ()
(1)IBN SHERAZA H

SOUHAIR (Sid Abouhom x Salwa)
(1) GHARIB black colt 1965

TANTA (Morafic x Mansoura)
(1) HAYAT grey Mare 1967
(2) TOBROK grey Colt 1966

THOURAYA (El Sareei x Rayana)
(1) GHADEER Mare
(2) MAHEERA grey mare

ZAHDA (Morafic x Om El Saad)
(1) ZAHID chestnut Colt 1972

In the 1980's, Dr. Ibrahim Zaghloul, the then director of the EAO, was asked by ARABIAN HORSE WORLD magazine: "Which mares, living or dead, had the strongest influence on the EAO's breeding program?" Dr. Zaghloul identified 5 mares, of which, the Antar daughter, ADAWEYA, was one of these influential mares:



If one reads the above comments carefully, Dr. Zaghloul gives more credit to Abla, than to Antar, for Adaweya's good points. Reviewing the list of progeny, one immediately notices that Antar was bred to very fine mares, possibly some of the finest mares at the EAO. Was his success as a sire, a result of his own genetic influence or rather, was his significance a reflection of the genetic strength of each of the EAO mares he was bred to? Was Antar like Nazeer, who throughout history was known to be complementary to the mare he was bred to, allowing the mare to favorable influence the foal? In looking at the list of foals produced by the following mares, who went to produce their quality or better: Kamar, Abla, and Shahrzada, I would have to say that the combination was not one-sided, and I strongly believe that Antar bred to each of these three mares was a successful "nick" that should have been exploited more.

In his famous HANAN book, Dr. Nagel, shares his observations of Antar:


Over the years, I learned that the influence of Antar was to be avoided, as coarseness was always a risk, when introducing him in a pedigree. However, in horses that I have seen, bearing multiple crosses of Antar, I have observed the opposite. Some of these horses are extremely refined, have conformation that is superior to other Egyptian Arabian Horses and are consistently athletic in their movement, with great freedom in the shoulders.

As the years go by, the people that saw Antar in the flesh become less and less. Opinions regarding Antar and the influence of his bloodline, is relegated to the few pictures that we have of him, personal opinions that are published, as well as the living horses that trace to him, in their pedigree. Is Antar one of the horses in Egyptian breeding that was misunderstood, as the fame and regard for Nazeer became more and more esteemed, were horses like Antar, sacrificed for the more popular horses of the day? What is FACT and what is FICTION regarding the continuing influence of ANTAR?

Looking forward to an engaging and thoughtful discussion,
Ralph

I wish we had more of it left! Anter offered a lot to breeders and his offspring were not used enough. substance is somewhat lacking today which I think Anter sons and daughters woudl have added to at least continued.

My best stallion is out of *AK Jaheena a Anter grandaughter. Mahonri has movement and substance plus as a bonus, puts a lot of pretty on his foals.

We have Bint Ameera Moniet, a somewhat unique pedigree in that she goes back to Eman and Ein on the distaff side. Making her doubel Anter and double Abla four generations back. Only two crosses five generations back to Nazeer through of course Abla as well as double Helwa.

You are correct, she is a pretty mare and does have substance. Her temperament is phenomenal. Just as soon with people than horses. Not trained to ride but I have put my grandchildren on her and walked her around. There is a reason we do not ride her as she apparently foundered on grass at one time and any slight change in diet and it tends to come back. So we keep weight off her. Both to carry and via feed.

She is the gray, the bay is RG Iris, by Sonimoniet RSI x Saree RSI.

Plus two crosses to *Tuhotmos. I think this is one of the best crosses out that and it is too bad there are not mroe of them to work with.

I have a filly sired by Mahonri and out of AK Shesarra. I feel she is the best foal out of Shesarra to date!

Hi Ralph,
My observation is that Antar was very good for putting a nice big butt on the Egyptian Arabian - Nazeer gave beautiful fronts but very few had a rear end to match, and this is where a dash of Antar blood is very useful, to balance the body from front to back. Antar may have been a little long in the back but his long femur and short gaskin is IMO superior to Nazeer's.
I love SEs, but I think many are weak in behind, so using SEs with Antar blood could be very helpful in correcting this. Just like Sameh and Mashour, I think Antar was criticised by rather short-sighted people for not being pretty enough; but SE breeders are now realising the value of this blood - there seems to be a renaissance of aquiring the blood of Sameh through sires such as Makhsous, Imperial Imdal; and Antar through Dalul, Gharib etc, which is mixing with the more "classic" Nazeer lines with great success. One example would be the Dalul daughter Rafaalaa at Simeon Stud whose daughter Simeon Seda (in particluar) is producing exquisite yet powerful Asfour babies. Another example is Ansata Haisam who is a great grandson of Gharib and seems to have the best of both worlds.

Would love to hear more Antar and his children in particular the child of Ibn Antar and Hekmat the mare Hamamaa. If anyone has a piccie of her would love to see.

ally

The Anter daughter BASSAMA (xBasima). No small eyes at all but long ears (I like long ears....) The same with my Anter granddaughter NEMAD (Gharib by Anter x Nedjari)....


Bassama (chestnut) and Nemad (grey)
Photos: Oli

Für Kimberli
AR Anter von Nijamin (von Gharib von Antar) aus der EH Bint Tuhotmos (von Tuhotmos)

hi, i would love to see a pic of the antar son saab does any one have one? also the mare kazaba (saab x kazamah) i belive these horses were maxwell breed?? although i may be wrong!

Good morning everybody

I disagree with Judi forbis and Dr Nagel's description of "antar".

Number one, Antar did not have a long or week back at all. I saw him the last time in 1973. These were my notes " I saw Antar in 1973. He was in excellent condition. A liver chestnut, tremendous hindquarters, shoulders, whithers and hip. Well set on balanced neck,Excellent mover, lovely dispostion, excellent legs with a very type desert bred like musculan head". Judi confused his back, Antar was a "Rectangular" horse, not a "square horse" which can be misunderstood as being "Long". I saw no weaknes either in his back, other than what I contributed to his high age then at 27. He died in 1974.
Comparing his neck with that of Ansata Ibn Halima, who had a thick, short neck, Antar was far superior in that department and overall conformation as well in movement. Antar was extremely athletic and all "Horse".
Both were different in type. Ansata Ibn Halima was a gift from the EAO to Judi and Don and not chosen by them. I noticed other discrepancies in Judi's book discribing certain horses, meaning they differ from what I saw and judged. Some bad photos are in the book of horses other than in Ansata breeding, although better and correct ones were available.

I dont want anybody to misunderstand this now, I liked Ansata Ihn Halima, he was a pretty little horse, and a sweetheart. Just like in anythingelse, two people can see things differently, and such should be respected. But it should also be stated fairly and correct, regardles who bred and owned the horse.

I once spent almost a months at Gleannlochs when Ansata Ibn Halima was stabled there for training by tom McNair and had ample time studiying him daily.

We imported Serenity Shahra (1966)grey, and Serenity Sagda (1966),grey both supreme champion mares having produced champions. In particular Serenity Shahra has 3 supreme championships, multiple Class A championships and was a super riding horse as well, which means that they defeated the grand champion stallion, and gelding for the supreme. she had big eyes, georgeous head, was about 15,3 hands tall. Serenity Sagda had a bit plainer head, was about 15 hands, but conformationwise was also excellent and a georgeous horse under saddle. Both were "flying machines". These line became one of our most productive. Khofo++'s dam "Nabilahh was also an Antar daughter and Khofo++ had tiny ears, big eyes, and won numerous most classics too.

Dawlat, dam of the legendary "Dalul" is a full sister to Serenity Shahra, a liver chestnut, multiple champion and producer of such. Dalul was also one of my favorites, he was "all horse" and beautiful as well and produced super offspring.

I have always been very high on the Antar, Sameh and Mashhour blood, judging it also what these lines produced over the past 40 years known to me.
Ad Nazeer blood to it, and you will have georgeous SEs.
As stated often before, there are many different "Types". Antar is different to Nazeer, Sameh and Mashhour, yet each one unmistakenly "Arabian".
If one would only go for one particular type or head, one could lose a lot of what the others contribute. Giving one's opinion, also must not be confused with "Bashing", something a true blue horseman/woman will not do. their reputation is at stake.

I know that Judi never liked Antar, because she was fixed on Ibn Halima's type, overlooking many attributes Antar brought along. It appears that then automatically Dr Nagel did not like it either. It also appears that both completely overlook the ahtletic ability of a horse, which could be a drastic error and kept promoting the type they liked, which is fine with me. Each to its own, eh!

The tremendous success of the eAO is totally contributed to their expertise in mating horses properly, to never short change athletic abilities, and simply chose a mating because they like the horse's head better than another.
They were and are still dead honest in discribing their horses, the good and the lesser good, otherwise they would lose the respect of international famous master breeders. Never, ever forget this please.

this is my opinion and without any thought of offending or whatever.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

No one compared Anter/Antar with another horse. It's just about Antar here and not about *Ansata Ibn Halima this time who for sure was more than a "lovely little horse".

" I saw Antar in 1973. He was in excellent condition. A liver chestnut, tremendous hindquarters, shoulders, whithers and hip. Well set on balanced neck,Excellent mover, lovely dispostion, excellent legs with a very type desert bred like musculan head". Judi confused his back, Antar was a "Rectangular" horse, not a "square horse" which can be misunderstood as being "Long". I saw no weaknes either in his back, other than what I contributed to his high age then at 27. He died in 1974."

This is your description of him, two other well-known breeders saw it differently. Why is your point of view the truth? The truth often lies in the middle.
That Judith Forbis not liked Anter is not true. That is just what you are saying! That she did not concentrate on his blood and prefer another type of horse does not mean she did not evaluate him properly. By the way she incorporated an Anter daughter in her breeding programme.

All who dealt with Anter told he was not an easy horse characterwise. How often do you saw Anter? Do you worked with him then daily? Did you ride him? "Lovely disposition" you wrote. What does that mean exactly? Some horses with Anter blood in Germany were not as handy as the Nazeer horses. They were kind of shy and did not bond easily with humans. Great personalities indeed but not as easy to love as the Nazeer horses.

I doubt that you are in the position to describe the EAO breeding programme and what they are did and doing over the last 30 years. Judith Forbis visited the EAO nearly every year for the last 40 + years and knows exactly what she saw. How often do you visited with El Zahraa and the private breeders?
But again you turned a discussion about a horse (Anter) into a discussion about Judith Forbis and *Ansata Ibn Halima. Forgive my harsh words... but it's pathetic.

Alice

I had hoped that my post did not encourage a reply as you gave.
I have never in my life discribed a horse by if I like it or not,or who owned it. We are here comparing, and not bashing. We compare other horses to each other, dont we?
Your questions are rediculous, I feel, and it amazes me.

I brought comparrisons up for the reason of learning, not for the reason of what I or others like or not. It is most obvious that some horses in the USA have been heavily promoted for one reason or another and at times top other horses shunned, because it was competition, one can not defeat and therefore should try to eliminate. The results are also obvious.

I remember how Dr Marsafi PERSONALLY showed me again Antar in 1973 and was proud over particular points of his conformation. He did not appear to me as other than a sweet, gentle horse, the same I noticed in the offpsrings known to me.

I think it might be wise for you to buy, unless you have them already, publictions of Brabenets, Hecker, etc in which destinct discriptions of their breeding stallions and sometimes mares, is stated and their production. But then of course, these people knew what they were doing. these breeding farms did not produce garden ornaments, but made very certain that functional horses were produced. Personal love does not belong in the breeding shed.

For thousands of years horses were produced to be functional, have a purpose to serve menkind. Neglect this, and you have what I see in many today, a horse one wonders what one should do with it.

I dont know of one importer to the USA to 1973, which did not follow in the footsteps of other nation's knowledgable breeders and by enlarge produced excellent, functional and beautiful stock. But they did not committ over promotion in magazines, but showed promotion of the Se Arabians in deed,
at halter and under saddle. What happened thereafter, we all can see.

I tell you what is lost very much, powerful rearends, deep girths, clean legs and good serviceable hoofs,, excellent whithers, substance overall and long striding individuals. and that was "Bred away" because the ancestors all had these attributes by enlarge.

I understand, that everybody defends their horses, loves them etc, but one also needs to be realistic and think of "tomorrow"!
No-one can only breed Kentucky derby winners, so to speak, but none should come up consistently with non useable offspring, which look pretty, but are unable to do a thing based on their conformation when matured.

there are some knowledgabe breeders who would not want this or that horse in the pedigree close up of their horses. That is their expertise and/or choice.
they will never confuse a pretty head with functioability and can not afford to produce garden ornaments. their reputation is at stake.

And you are correct, various people judge various things differently, but seldom do horsemen/women disagree with conformation points of consequence.

this is my opinion again

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Bisecting the photo above I find that Anter has a shoulder angle of about 48 degrees, much better than some of his contemporaries. His back is really average to short rather than long and weak. His loin is somewhat long and some people judge this as "a back" but that is incorrect. He has a long forearm and short cannons and a very strong gaskin. I like the angle of his hip to point of butt. He has a long beautifully shaped croup with a high set tail. His neck is set on well and is shaped like a stallion, although his head is turned he appears to have a long well shaped poll and you can not see his throat latch.

This is a horse I would breed to especially if my mares were lacking in balance.

Now this is just my opinion and everyone has a right to express one once in a while.

Kimberli

Only Anter makes not a good horse. Only Nazeer makes not a good horse. Only Same makes not a good horse. You need everything good from many of the great ones to create a good horse. Just my humble opinion. Nazeer gave the classic looks. That's the wonderful thing and the curse at the same tine because beauty is easier to evaluate than a correct conformation and therefore many bred just for beauty.
In Europe not so many Anter get were here for breeding. Gharib was used with success at Marbach but Saab and the other Anter sons were not used heavily. Saab was in Germany at a time and was overlooked and went to UK and later to Spain.

Submitted for your approval, another photo of the horse, Anter/Antar

Submitted for your approval, another photo of Anter/Antar

Click to view attachment


Dear Forum:

It is interesting that Antar/Anter was bred to the mare, Kamar (Nazeer x Komeira). She was, like Adaweya, another of the mares that Dr. Zaghloul identified as having a profound influence on the EAO breeding program.

Photo of Kamar:



From Dr. Zaghloul:



*KAHRAMANA (in the opening picture [head shot] of this post and also, below), carried on the influence of Antar and Kamar. When bred to *Morafic, she produced the stallion, Ibn Morafic+++, a 1971 US National Futurity Champion Stallion and an important sire for Gleannloch Farms.

WAHAG

Thank you Ralph for posting the additional photos of Anter which clearly underline what Judith Forbis wrote! Everyone can see it.
The mentioned Saab was a fullbrother to Kharamana and Wahag. Wahag whome I saw at the EAO had a weak and soft back but I don't know which of his parents did pass that on to him.

Sorry the post was from me-
- Alice

thanks Ralph fopr this photo. this was when he was in high age taken. I have others, and some day when I learn to transmit over the forum, I will.

Hansi

Mmm interesting Guest. That photos was taken when antar was in high age. some horses indeed sink their back when getting old. That was NOT when he was younger. So everybody indeed can see what some horses look like when they get old.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

The Antar daughter, Hekmat, a 1961 chestnut mare out of Samia (Nazeer x Malaka)

I posted about the mare, Kamar, however, I believe that there was another good nick with Antar and that was the mare, Shahrzada (Nazeer x Yosreia). From that union, a mare like *Dawlat, "a leggy chestnut with a tremendous neck and shoulder" was born, as well as Bint El Nil, Ibn Shahrzada and *Serenity Shahra. *Dawlat carried forward the legacy of her parents, by producing the stallion: Dalul by *Morafic and Asjah Ibn Faleh, when bred to the Alaa El Din son, *Faleh.

The Nazeer daughter, Abla, was bred to Antar multiple times to produce the influential mare at the EAO, Adaweya, as well as Eman (pictured here) and Ein, Looza, Nagat, Rashika, and Somaia. It is my own personal opinion that this is the third of a really superb "nick" with Antar, the other two being Kamar and Shahrzada.

The 1966 Chestnut Antar daughter: *Nihal++, out of the *Morafic daughter, Neamat (out of the Sid Abouhom daughter, Hemmat)

The "++" came from her National Championships in Western Pleasure and National Top Ten English Pleasure, back in the day when Arabian Horses were versatile and not specialists.

Here is a photo of Bint Talwafi Z. She is sired by *Waheeb and out of the Ibn Morafic daughter Talwafi. Tail-female to the Anter daughter *Bint BInt Kateefa, two crosses to *Kahramana.

Dear Hansi

You could see the long back on the photos posted by Ralph. Judith Forbis wrote "somewhat long" and everyone can see exactly this, a "somewhat long back".
It goes without saying that an old hose can sink in its back. That's not the point.

If you ask "Which Lines have produced perfomance horses?" in Germany you can get only one answer: GHARIB (Anter x Souhair).
Here the successfulst Gharib son in Germany:

SADDAM (Gharib x Senitza). The best sire of perfomance horses in Germany. His son Munim Ibn Saddam (xMatari by Ibrahim) is the one and only purebred arabian who could win a stallions performance test against warmbloods!
Photos by Rik van Lent and Gerd Jung

Judi Parks of Abbasiyah International in Bandera, Texas has incorporated the blood of Anter in her program. The following picture is of the black mare, Nisma. She is sired by the Antar son, *Serag (out of Bint Om El Saad) and out of the mare, *Nasim, who is a Gharib daughter. So, this mare carries two crosses to Antar, very close up in her pedigree. She is a beautiful mare, one of the best black mares I have seen in a long time.

Kimberli:

Judi Parks has a bay mare named Neamat Allah. She traces in her tail female line to *AK Jaheena. This mare foaled a colt, named Sarig Al Qulob, which means Thief of Hearts. This colt has six crosses to Antar.

Ralph
Click to view attachment

Here is a photo of Wahag (Anter x Kamar), originally posted by Judi Parks

And a conversation that Barbara Lewis and Judi Parks had regarding Lavender Foal Syndrome:

JP: Would you be able to tell me who the LFS carrier was out of Abla, Tanta and the ones out of Wahag? This is not a witch hunt question but one to expand my knowledge. As you know we had the Anter son *Serag and utilized him on a very wide variety of bloodlines, including MEN and we also utilized a very heavily linebred Hamdan horse *Shemees and to date neither our Anter sons, daughters or grandchildren nor the heavily linebred Hamdan son has ever produced a Lavender. I've often wondered if it could be a chance combination of MEN and her progeny onto heavy Nazeer? Again, this is as much as a guess as the Hamdan combination through BH as we just don't know where it is coming from other than it seems to have a MEN link in most cases.

BL:Yes I can Judy, but want to preface this by saying that the closer they get to the present, the more reluctant I am to quote names. I don't want anyone innocently harmed by this topic, as seemingly people don't see the words; speculation, theory, perhaps, maybe, not proven, nor always understand that this is JUST a discussion on various ideas; a comparison of notes, hoping for a little insight no matter how slight. Nothing here proves anything. Anter and Tanta produced Hayat ('67). Hayat had two recorded lavender foals, one by IMEN and one by Sar Ibn Moniet. Now we are getting closer to the present with the offsprings of Wahag, and I would rather not repeat their names. Two different daughters are on the list. One daughter produced a lavender and one daughter produced a known producer.I'd also like to state that genetics is only a casual interest of mine, so any discussion on the x,y's and z's of genetics won't be visited by myself. There are far better experts that are reading this right now and can answer more correctly. Can we have a quote from a professional geneticist regarding whether or not both parents must be carriers? A quote from a book, maybe? When this is answered with absolute certainty, then we can view this with a better understanding. I was told by someone I viewed as knowing what they were talking about, that it WAS necessary. Now I think it is time to get the facts straight, as it seems to be in question..... and what actual percent of the offsprings are and are not carriers.... and MUST that carrier produce the problem consistently, or can it not produce it, but carry it on to another generation? These things we need to know unquestionably. Only then will names mean anything.
It has been stated in this thread that the mare Nagat (Anter x Abla) produced more than one lavender when bred to IMEN, but she also produced some who were not lavender, by IMEN. THEN the offspring of that "healthy" daughter, produced a lavender when bred back into those lines. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it appear that the gene for that might have carried through by the healthy daughter, who went on to produce a LFS foal, as well as the sire?


JP: Ahh, okay. Again we have the known carriers Sar Ibn Moniet and Ibn Moniet El Nefous with again the possible Moniet connection on the Hayat LF's. I understand with not wanting to repeat names with the Wahag horses but if you look at their respective pedigrees they too have the Moniet connection as does the LF produced out of *Nagat. Knowing what we know I would agree with Barbara and would study carefully pedigrees with known carriers but I certainly wouldn't give up on using these bloodlines.

Gharib (Anter x Souhair)
Photos: Monika Pehr

The Antar daughter CLEOPATRAA, a black mare foaled in August of 1960 and out of the Sid Abouhom daughter, Ahlam

The Antar daughter, Ansata Bint Elwya

In my opinion one of the beautifulst Anter daughters:
BASSAMA (x Basima)
Photo: Ursula Guttmann

Pictured below is the Antar son, *Serag out of Bint Om El Saad. Not to detract away from Antar, but I wanted to point out that this mare, Bint Om El Saad also produced *Serenity Sonbolah, when bred to Sameh and Ikhnatoon, when bred to *Farazdac. I am not sure now if I fully understand why this horse, *Serag was not used more at stud.

.... and my 3 Anter grandchildren
EH Assam (Gharib x Aminah), EH Gabir (Gharib x El Garia), Nemad (Gharib x Nedjari) together with warmblood Carlos
Photos Assam and Gabir: Nicole Kumpf; Nemad: Oli


and my Anter Great-Granddaughters Blue Velvet and Angel Heart both by Nabya Ibn Gharib x Estashama Ibn Estopa.
Photo Blue Velvet: Nicole Kumpf; Angel Heart: Joanna Jonientz

Hi Ralph ,

I wonder what you think of his back, and his neck, refinement, or if you have had the opportunity to experience the disposition of some of these Antar stallions?

It really doesn't matter what I think of his back, Kelly, or even his disposition. I wasn't able to see the horse, when he was alive. The purpose of this discussion is to understand this particular horse better and his continuing legacy on Egyptian Arabian Horse breeding. As far as refinement, I have noticed that many of his daughters were extremely typey horses and went on to produce similar or better. Was this because of Antar's influence or because each mare that he was bred to, i.e. Abla, were mares that passed this refinement onto the succeeding generations? I am hoping that this discussion will offer clarity on Antar and help others to better understand the horse and what qualities he may still contribute to Egyptian Arabian Horse breeding.

Ralph

Dear Alice.

I saw Antar in the flesh, examined him thoroughly and maintain that he was NOT even a bit long back, but rather in a beautiful recktangular shape.
Also, as far as a back is concerned, there has to be the deepest point which some people confuse also with a weak back. you dont want to ride on an ironing board, eh. Photos do not always do a horse justice. I will never forget Antar and think highly of him and what he produced in particular his daughters.
I was not that much impressed with the sons of his I know. they were good, but not as good as the daughters in my opinion. All in all, the entire line has proven itself of superiority, at halter and under saddle in stress performances.I really liked antar, he was a horse and a half, so to speak.

I think Judi preferred the square type horse having a short back and an overall different type. why not, that is her preferance and that of others.We were always taught that the idial riding horse has a back where you can set well and still cary your camping bed behind you without it hitting the croup.
those are basically long distance horses, stress performers by enlarge, while I guess the shortbacked ones are more sprinters, reining horses, of the like.

I have ridden both types and always felt more comfortable on a rectangular horse, lots in front, center and behind. But than this is my preference.
so, each to its own.

Hansi
Serneity Arabian Farms

+thank you folks for the information of your study. and I truly appreciate your candidness, as we all wish to learn.

We never had a lavenda foal and have lots of antar,Nazeer etc in our pedigrees. this is the first time that I hear that it could be genetic.
I was once told here by a Vet.Professor that they think it came through lack of oxygin intake by the foal. therefore, I really dont know and have not studied the matter, had no reason.

Which Hayat are you all talking about, there are many. the one "Hayat (Inshass) (1967) had no foals according to my recors by Imen and Sar Ibn Moniet. Did I make an error?

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms



.

Hello Ralph,

As you know Anter is one of my favourite horses and we have utilized his blood heavily within our breeding programme here at Abbasiyah through *Serag (Anter x Bint Om El Saad) who was Anter's last son and through other sources of Anter, ie. *Gharib as we had two lovely *Gharib daughters out of Noha, *Nasim and *Nardschis.

Thank you for your compliments on our beautiful black mare NISMA (*Serag x *Nasim) who is double Anter close up and one of the best mares that we have produced. I'm happy and sad at the same time to say that we have sold Nisma and she is going to Saudi Arabia where her bloodlines are greatly appreciated. We still have a full sister, Nour El Serag who is grey. Aleksi is updating our web site so soon you will see a photo of Nour.

Also, thanks for posting the photos on our new black colt, Sarig Al Qulob. I just checked his pedigree again and I missed an Anter through the Gleannloch imported Anter son, Fahiid so this lovely guy is 7 crosses to Anter. He is extremely refined and has the Anter upright, elegant neck and the Anter hip and croup as well as beautiful movement. I think you can see in one or two of the photos his beautiful head. Actually Ralph, all of our *Serag children have lovely heads. Nisma in particular has a georgeous Dahman head with large expressive eyes.

I have been thinking a lot about the comments that have been published about Anter and have of course added my own taken from my viewing many Anter children and grand children. Unfortunately I did not get to see Anter in the flesh (ha, ha, I'd like to think it was because I was way too young at the time). I can not comment about the comments made about him being of a difficult temperament but if his son *Serag was like him in temperament then I would have to say that a better description of his temperament would have been territorial. *Serag was territorial of his paddock, his mares and his space. Difficult, mean, nasty... absolutely not but you had to respect his space. I do think a lot of stallions are like this, after all it's natural for a stallion to be territorial in the wild so why would be expect any different in a domesticated stallion. I always thought Ansata Ibn Sudan was territorial in the same manner as *Serag so perhaps this was true of Anter.

Having worked with the blood of Anter within my own breeding programme and having had Anter’s last son, *Serag, as well as having viewed a large number of Anter’s direct offspring and then his grand children, I find some of the comments that have been printed about this horse a bit difficult to understand.

Let’s start with Judith Forbis stating that he was somewhat heavy boned. I have experienced the opposite here, in fact in viewing the photos of Anter, both older shots and the rare ones of him in his prime, he is quite refined in bone. *Serag (Anter x Bint Om El Saad) was extremely refined in his bone.

Head, Anter it appears did not have an exotic head and neither did the son that we owned *Serag, but they did have a nice heads, heads very typical of what was being produced at that time. Anter’s eyes could have been bigger but it has been within my own personal breeding experience and within my own personal observation that chestnuts of any line tend to have slightly smaller eyes. Is it a chestnut trait? I don’t really know but it is my observation. Ears, average for what I have seen in the older lines, certainly not Welsh pony size but normal for a horse of that size.

Judith Forbis states in one of her observations that Anter had a rather heavy long enough neck, nicely arched but rather heavy. In this I have to strongly disagree. Anter had a long, fine elegant neck and so did his son *Serag. In fact many who had the opportunity to see *Serag in the flesh commented on how long and upright his neck was and *Serag strongly reflected his sire in looks. Dr. Nagel stated in his book Hanan that Anter had a fine, elegant neck. Dr. Nagel further commented that he was a refined boney horse of solid conformation. I find it hard to picture the horse from this sentence as he states refined and boney and solid conformation together. Refined yes, boney… what is boney? Solid conformation, yes I would have to agree here as Anter had a wonderful laid back shoulder, a long hip, and a strong croup with a high tail set.

Both Dr. Nagel and Judith Forbis gave Anter his due in the movement department. Dr. Nagel stated that he had powerful extending movements and Judith Forbis said he had good gaites.

Judith Forbis stated that Anter has good withers and Dr. Nagel stated that he had a good shoulder. Judith Forbis goes on to state that he had good legs but she indicated that his front legs attached to his body differently and that was something that could be seen in his offspring. I’m not sure what was meant by this statement as I have yet to see this in the photos of Anter or in any of the Anter blood that I have used. What is a differently attached front end?? Some of our current heavily used stallions of today produce front ends that are too far forward but I fail to see this in the photos of Anter or in his offspring.

All in all, I think that Anter was quite a horse!

Dr. Piduche in his book “Egypt’s Arab Horses History Cultural Heritage” on page 186 stated that eventually there was at El Zahraa no prominent mare that did not have Nazeer in her pedigree. As Dr. Marsafi wanted to avoid too much inbreeding, of course, he carefully used two “Inshass” stallions for service:

Sameh (El Moez x Samira K.), born in 1945 AND

Anter (Hamdan x Obeya S.G.), born in 1946


I think we can safely assume here that Dr. Marsafi knew what he was doing when he chose Sameh and Anter!


Anter, perhaps we should look into his pedigree for the reasons as to why he was such a successful sire.

Anter’s sire was none other than the very well known stallion Hamdan (Ibn Rabdan x Bint Radia) who was herd sire for the Inshass Stud from 1939-1952 and who became herd sire for the famous Hamdan Stables from 1956-1966 and then who later returned to the EAO. (everyone should read the fabulous story of Hamdan by Sara Loken).

Remember the quote in another Judith Forbis book “The Classic Arabian Horse” about the fabulous four? Hamdan, Shahloul, Samira and Radwan. In this book, Judith described the grandmother of these fabulous four, Ghadia (later known as Radia) as being a celebrated mare for the Royal Agricultural Society as was her daughter Zarifa (Zareefa) by Sahab who went on to become very influential in the Inshass herd.

Again as per Judith Forbis in her book “The Classic Arabian Horse” the Ghadia (Radia) line became one of the most treasured producers for the R.A.S. (now known as the EAO). Ghadia (Radia) was descended from the mare Ghazala (Ibn Sherara x Bint Helwa) and as described in Judy’s book, the Ghazala descendants raced well, had excellent movement, good size, height and substance as well as elegance, long necks and extreme heads.

One can not forget the influence of Ibn Rabdan in the pedigree of Anter either as this blood figures heavily throughout the pedigree. Again in Judy’s book, The Classic Arabian Horse, Ibn Rabdan is described as the most important sire of his day.

He was described as being very elegant, dark chestnut and according to Dr. Zaher he had great finesse.
Carl Raswan further described him as being a “world champion type”.

On page 345 of Judy’s book you will read about Ibn Rabdan being very influential in the studs of Prince Kemal Al Dine, Prince Mohammed Ali, Royal Agricultural Society (EAO) and at the Inshass Stud.

Jack Humphrey’s described Ibn Rabdan as “dark chestnut of at least 15.1, rather straight in face line and lacking in depth of jaw. Otherwise, almost perfect.


Anter’s dam Obeya was by Mekdam, a son of Rustem bred by the Crabbet Stud and out of non other than Bint Bint Dalal and Ibn Rabdan daughter.

Obeya’s dam was Abla (Inshass) was sired by the Bint Dalal son El Zafir and she was out of Bint Zareefa (Hadban x Zareefa)…. Remember that Ghadia (Radia) daughter Zarifa (Zareefa) mentioned on page 320 of Judith Forbis’ book “The Classic Arabian Horse”? Yes it’s Anter’s tail female, the Zareefa by Sahab and out of Ghadia (Radia), foaled in 1911 and who is described as being “a very special filly- the most lovely in the world”.

How can you not like Anter? A fabulous horse with an equally fabulous pedigree laced with famous horses known for producing type, structure and movement!



Judi
Abbasiyah

I bought *AK Jaheena at age 27 after she spent 4 years being starved half to death. She was with me until her death a few days before she would have turned 32 years old. She never put on an ounce but was well fed with what I called "the all you can eat salad bar". Here is a photo of her just a few months before she died.

I have never seen *AK Jaheena's daughter but i do have two of her sons.
Hadban Al Nazhi by Glorieta Gazaal
Click to view attachment

and Meadow Mahonri by Kamars Sherif.
Click to view attachment

Thank you for your thoughts judi.
Judith Forbis also described Gharib as becoming "coarse" as he aged - I struggle with this statement as I consider Gharib a very refined horse. Perhaps by coarse she meant not pretty enough in the head? Gharib, to me, shows again the strong points of Antar. Look at that rear end, it is great, bigger than his front end. One can see why the Antar rear ends combined with the Nazeer fronts is a success story. Gharib also has a beautiful long arm, at least 50% of his shoulder length. Judith Forbis seems to prefer a shorter arm bone with the legs attached further forward - I think that is what she meant by Antar's front legs attaching differently. She had a preference for a different structure, but that doen't mean the rest of us should agree. The oher thing I like about Gharib is that his stifle appears to be as low as his elbow, and consequently his flank is almost as deep as his chest. He could stil be deeper in both areas, and I feel his loin is weak, but he is better balanced than many SEs we are seeing today.
Why people do that value this blood more highly (as Oli says the Gahrib and Antar blood is THE proven performance blood) I do not understand.
The mixing of sons and daughters of Serag and Gharib (for example) with the beauty queens/kings of today is the way to go, in my opinion.

I think we all become a bit "coarse" as we age. I have had *Waheeb sense he was 6 years old and now at 26, he is a bit "coarse" too. He was always so refined both in bone and skin . Now his skin saggs and his bone has become a bit "coarse" . His back is sagging as well and he always has such a short back it was hard to find a saddle short enough to fit him.

There are agenda's for folks who publish books and when promoting a preeding program.

That lovely long upper arm (point of shoulder to elbow) is something we look for in our horses, SE, ES, other Arabs and any other breed. We have Eventers, so they must have good Dressage movement.

A horse with a short arm, with forelegs set too far forward, often has what is termed a "terrier front". (Compare the front end and resulting movement of, say, a Fox Terrier or Airdale with that of a Saluki or Greyhound. Then compare the lenth of the arm and foreleg attachment of each breed.) A "terrier fronted" horse lacks the long sweeping movement. A horse may have the longest, most laid back shoulder imaginable, but if the arm is too short, it will move with a terrier type motion, sort of a stiff waddle. If one prefers the more foreward set of the forelegs, one must be VERY CAREFUL that it is NOT accompanied with a short upper arm.

The stifle even with the elbow is another conformational MUST for us. These horses can really engage the rear end. They do not develop a "hitch" in the stifle, nor are they prone to becoming post legged in their old age, two things we are seeing way too much of. They can also sit down and really drive, spin on a dime, and jump with the best.

Consequently, we are simply thrilled with the addition of a Gharib daughter, who is also out of a Gharib granddaughter, to our little group of horses, and are looking forward to an SE foal, bred especially with Eventing in mind (though the mare has also produced very exotic heads, too). We think we will be successful, as we have been with our ES Anglo/part Arabs and ES purebred gelding .... all of whom have been qualified at one time or another for U.S. Eventing Asso. Nationals.

Sharon

The expected SE foal will have 7 crosses to Antar

I am sure you are correct. I would be apt to put some of that on persomal preference, in that no two people see anything the same way.
All of us have a tendency to sag as we get older, some of us get thin and thinner while the greates majority of us have a tendency to blossom into rotundity, some pleasant and some not so.
A bit off subject but here is our 3 year old SE stallion and here he is at 24. He died at 29. The same horse.

Photo at 25 was an excercise in blurring the background. No adjustment or touchup of the horse. Was trying to get a dang hose out of the photo on the bottom and finally just lost interest in doing it. Unfortunately a subsequent major crash of my hard drive lost a bunch of photos. The original of the later photo as well.
Quite a change don't you think???