Dear SE Friends,

For several days now I've mulled over how to maintain my own sense of integrity and still find a way to use what I've learned to help others avoid a potentially damaging sales situation. Carol Maginn has posted a nice thread about her drama repossessing a horse and I thought that the following topic deserved it's own thread since it was slightly off her point:

The dilemma of how to warn others of potentially dangerous buyers and sellers is such a tricky one. Everyone deserves a second chance and many times people that make mistakes learn from them and go on to be responsible community members. Yet it's also true that the biggest indicator of future behavior is past results.

It's so hard to know how to walk the fine line between our industry needing more transparency (about EVERYTHING: conformational faults, breeding issues, finances, etc.) and common decency and confidentiality.

That said, I want to warn anyone who will listen about a Middle Eastern buyer shopping for many horses right now who has impacted the finances of several breeders in the U.S. and Europe. I have personally spoken with at least three people this person has harmed - at the very least wasted the time of - and know of several others that were approached but may have been discerning enough to save themselves. The impacts of this buyer vary from mild annoyance to deep financial loss.

This buyer is very enthusiastically going about the business of soliciting heartfelt support for their dreams and goals with these horses under a deliberately false impression that they have the financial resources to do so. Though I am usually a very astute businessperson it took me about 4 months to determine that I was being lied to because of the very specific nature of this buyer's circumstances.

Anyone who is dealing with a Middle Eastern buyer and who wants to check with me to verify whether or not their potential buyer may be the person I'm referring to is welcome to contact me privately at allie@peacockcreekfarm.com. I will only talk about this in the strictest of confidence.

There just has to be a way for us to help protect each other. Thanks, Carol, for your example of one way to go about it. I welcome other ways to pass on information to each other in a spirit of openness and cooperation. Our industry deserves this.

Hugs,
Allison

thank you Allison

there are numerous ways to check out creditabibilty.

For one thing, you tell the buyer to come and visit you, If you have expericne with people/business you will quickly tell what is what.

Then you ask them to put their pocket where their mouth is. /you give your intentions, and you ask theirs. You commensorate ascordingly.

We have been most fortunate, that our international dealings have always been bonafide and were by referral.They were the most honorable dealings and that since 1972.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Unfortunately Hansi, this buyer came with references and an air of credibility. The specific circumstances of the buyer's situation created a thin veil of secrecy that ballooned out of control when they were "given an inch" so to speak.

Although there are many naive posters in this forum, most of us have had great success in other businesses and have a pretty good idea of how to conduct business. Common sense usually rules. It is the cultural differences between our countrymen that made this situation difficult. I think most of the people hurt fell under the spell of the lure of selling their horses to the Middle East. And this buyer is very likeable personally which caused at least one seller/agent to lose all sense of sanity when extending herself - with quite tragic results.

I wish I could openly discuss this and there would be a much better understanding of what to avoid. However, since I am getting many emails privately I will simply hope that anyone that needs saving from this person will see this and contact me.

Best wishes,
Allie

I'm bumping this thread up because I've become aware of the fact that the buyer I'm referred to anonymously in my original post has contacted multiple US breeders this month about buying horses.

Anyone who wishes to verify the identity of the SAUDI ARABIAN YOUNG LADY that several breeders worldwide have had disastrous results with, please email me privately.

Best wishes,
Allison

It is sad that there ar so many scammers out there. I have two horses for sale right now, one being a two year old SE gelding with two Egyptian Event reserves to his credit. I have received the following e-mails from one of two individuals that I KNOW are scammers. This particular person has been the most "pushy." Here are the e-mails.

Initial contact....

HELLO,
I'M INTERESTED IN PURCHASING YOUR (Winning
show gelding) I WILL LIKE YOU TO GIVE ME THE LAST
PRICE YOU ARE WILLING TO SELL IT,I WILL MAKE YOU AN
OFFER.I WILL LIKE YOU TO E-MAIL ME THE PIC'S AND MORE
INFORMATION ABOUT IT ALONG WITH THE PRESENT CONDITION
AS OF IT NOW. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE SHIPPMENT I HAVE A
SHIPPING COMPANY THAT WILL CATER FOR THE SHIPPMENT AND
WILL LIKE YOU TO KNOW THAT MY TERMS OF PAYMENT WILL BE
A CERTIFIED BANK CHECK OR MONEY ORDER DRAWN IN U.S
FUNDS. HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOONEST..
BEST REGARDS...
<<not listing his name, in case of legalities>>
To which I replied...

Hello <<name erased>>,

Both of the geldings that I have available are winning show geldings. The four year old is priced at $20,000 and the two year old at $4000.

Thank you. <<I also sent photos of both horses to him at this time>>

The second contact from him was this...


Thanks for the mail.I can't be able to get back to you immediately i receieved your mail.I am fine with the price,I want you to know that i am interested in the 2 yrs old gelding with price is $4,000 and i receive the pictures,i want you to know that it will be ship to United Kingdom.I have got a worldwide shipping agent company that I can awarded the shippment contract to.Never mind about the shippment arrangement again,I have instructed my client in U.S who his owing some fund to forward the payment direct to you and the payment is going to be made out in US check.Your purchase price and the shipping company fees who will come for the pick up from your premises and sign over the title,and the paper work.
My client will forward you the amount higher than the actual price and you will deduct your payment and send the remaining balance of the fund to the shipping agent company immediately you recieve the US check so that they can come for the pick up arrangement and I'm compensating you $150 for the inconveniences.You will send the balance of the excess to them services through Moneygram International So that they can come for the pick on my behave.I will forward you the shipping company information soonest,Hope I can put all my trust in you in this transaction,if so,Kindly do this favour for me by bearing with my payment assistance so that this transaction can seal up as soon possible.Kindly provide me with the correct contact details information.E.G Your full name,address where the check will be receieve and your valid home,work and cell phone number.
I look forward to hear from you soonest.Thanks for your honesty.
Regards
<<name eliminated to protect the not-so-innocent>>

So, again I replied:

Dear ----:

This would not be my first time working with an overseas buyer and I am excited at the possiblity of having <gelding's name edited out--I don't want this so seem to you all that this is a sale ad for either horse in any way>shipping to the UK.

If you would, kindly forward to me the name of the shipping company that will be handling his transport, the name of the barn officer at the stable in which you intend to keep him, your veterinarian's name, and the name of someone else within the equine community in your area that can give to me a reference regarding your horsekeeping skills. Finding a good home for this horse is of paramount importance to me and I will go to great lengths to see that he finds a happy, productive home.

Thank you for indulging my requests.

So, I got this reply:

Thanks for the mail.I want you to know that the horse is for private used and i have a place that is going to be kept and i want you to know that it will be given all necessary treatment it needs.I have a big home where i can keep it,i have breed a horse before i sold it to someone who is interested in it and now i am regreting that i sold it.don't worry it will be taken care of.Here is the shipping company that is coming for the pick up e-mail address : <<edited out the shipper's e-mail here>>you can contact them to know more about the pick up arrangement..I want you to also forward me your information so that the payment can be mail out to you and as soon as you have receive it,I will like you to notify me immediately..Thanks for your time and Hoping to hear from you soonest..
Regards..
___________..

My reply....

Thank you for the e-mail address for the shipping company. I will contact them about their plans to pick up the horse upon receipt of payment via cashier's check.

Thank you also for the reassurance that you have bred and owned horses in the past. It is nice to know he will be kept at a private residence so that you can pay attention to him daily. However, in order to sell you the horse I would like to get the name of the veterinarian that has treated your horses in the past and one other reference from an indivdual from your local horse community that can attest to your horsekeeping skills. We greatly value our horses and want to do everythng in our power to they go to a perfect home.

Thank you.


Then I e-mailed the shipping company, which I never heard back from, here is that e-mail...

Dear Sir or Madam:

I have been contacted by _________, with regard to his potential purchase of a horse that I have for sale. He has indicated to me that you will be shipping the horse. I have a few questions for you. I assume you have a US based transporter who will retrieve the horse from me upon receipt of payment. Could you please provide me with a contact for this individual? Also, regarding the international quarantine policies, how does your agency usually handle these issues? Finally, can you tell me the type of transport you intend to use for the eventual overseas shipment of the horse and the accomidations for the horse that will be made while in transport?

Thank you for your time.


Then I heard from this buyer again...

Thanks for the mail.I want you to forward me the requested information so that the payment can be mail out to you,I will forward you the veterinarian name that take care of my horse 2morrow.Waiti2ng to hear from you so that we can proceed on the sale transaction..
Regards..
_________


My reply...

Hello _______

I will get that information to you and I look forward to hearing from your veterinarian. What information do you need from me to proceed?

Thank you.

I never heard from the vet. This is the next one I got from him...

Thanks for the mail.I receive your mail.I want you to forward me your full name that will be on the check and address including your phone numbers so that the check can be send down to you for the payment...Waiting to hear from you soonest..
Regards..
___________...

My reply...

Hi _______

I will be happy to provide to you the information you have requested when you send to me the contact information for your veteriarian and one other equine related person who knows you and your skill level that can provide a refernece regarding your horsekeeping skills.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you.

This last one came in today. Who knows what his next trick will be. Ugh, scammers!!!!

Further up in this post, many people were talking of the safety of not accepting terms as payments. As I can understand and respect that, I can also see the grass on the other side of the fence. As a small breeder and horse owner, I know what is is like to fall in love with the horse you want and not have all the money up front to pay for it. I continue to accept terms in my sales with very specific conditions. The animal in question does not leave my property until sale is final and all terms are paid or is being boarded at a facility that I have agreed upon. If boarding, the contract is under my name with the restriction that the animal cannot leave the facility without prior written concent from me, until the sale is final and all terms have been paid. I have had a few close calls and therefore have refined my contract accordingly.

To date, all sales have gone relatively smoothly with no aftermath. I have actually experienced the opposite of a few of you in which the sale has been finalized and I still own the horses. They have yet to transfer ownership, even though all paperwork is in order and has been signed. This I don't understand???

I too being hard up have bought horses on terms and have always paid as agreed. Sadly, the two horses I have sold on terms have not been paid for. I sold one who was to be paid for as the buyer could afoord to pay, He has a lovely home and is beatifully looked after but I have yet to receive any money over a year later. The other one went to her new home in July and so far I have managed with much persuasion to get two small payments towards her cost. I have still retained ownership of the horses and kept their papers but why do people seem so nice and then just not pay. You wouldn't go into a shop and be able to buy things without paying. Both of the horses I sold were top quality and for cheap prices considering their bloodlines and looks.

In both instances I chose what I thought were good homes but I worry about the integrity of people who would do that. I know the gelding is very happy and well looked after, he lacks nothing and is adored but why do people expect something for nothing. The mare I have not seen since she went to her new home. The people who bought her were to have her daughter for £300 as they were to be together (a derisory sum for a beautifully bred mare when the stud fee for her sire at that time was £1500 + VAT) but I was so pleased they were to be together. Fortunately as the daughter had a foal at foot she didn't go and as I have not been paid for the mare she will be readvertised for a realistic price.

Sadly that sort of thing does put people off selling on terms and impacts upon people like myself who can't afford the horse of their dreams except on terms but understandably sellers who have been let down before are not too keen to repeat the experience. I only sold my two mares I had lost my job and had no money coming in so I really needed the money. I now have another job but at a salary I was earning ten years ago (but better than nothing) so still need to cut down on the mouths to feed.

Barbara

I believe the same individual that "FOSS" posted about has contacted me. He went away fairly quickly however when I would not email a price without additional info from the inquirer.

Thank you all for your comments. I think Mystikal may have confused this thread with others that have been held on the perils of selling and what to look out for. Certainly one must exercise good business judgement when selling on terms. I'm sure that entire discussions could be devoted to this subject alone.

And, yes, as someone who advertises horses regularly I get the scammers, too. They are pretty easy to spot. Anyone who writes me a general "I'm ready to buy" letter without demonstrating the least bit of knowledge of the horse I'm selling or telling me anything about themselves doesn't even get a response from me. I see this kind of scam every day.

More disturbingly, THIS brief thread has been specifically created to warn our community members about a legitimate buyer who is wreaking havoc on many people in the U.S. AND ABROAD. The fact that she is a member of the Saudi royal family (anyone who knows ME politics recognizes her last/tribe name, although she is now using another name since so many people know of her) and the fact that she does own and has purchased horses gives her a veil of respectability in everyone's eyes that I have spoken with. At least initially.

However after 6 frustrating months, thousands of dollars spent on international phone calls and courier charges, and checking around with a half dozen other people who she claimed she had done business with I heard horror stories. My contacts in her home town verify her identity and that she has a pathological problem that no one can understand.

Please be warned if you are dealing with a young female from the ME.

Best wishes,
Allison

Thank you for bringing this to people's attention.

Dear Allison

this is terrible. I wish you would have asked me, I might have been able to check such party out through my friends. Please e-mail me, so that I know what you are talking about- Khofo@worldnet.att.net

Various people have asked me in the past and I was always so glad to assist.
all was always, and always be confidential- and in trust.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

O boy, I just read the posts with the offers, etc.
that's the same type of scam done with other things. Like I pay you more, you deduct and forward the balance, while in the meantime the check etc bounces.

Please folks as me or Liz Salmon or the like and we will help you with our strong international connections. Do not be afraid we are ethical and willnot interfear in your transdactions, but rather help you to market a horse.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Dear Poster

Sicne when are you a bank? Please dont behave like one. A person can get moneys from other financial institutions to pay you. If they cant, that's a "red flag". Dont fall for it, other than in very particular cases.

Hansi
Sderenity Arabian Farms

Hello All,

May i ask why are we protecting these idiots by not naming them publically?? Do you honestly think they are going to sue us for defamation whilst they are being "scammers"... "i don't think so".. personally who ever has been contacted by these people should list thier scammers names in this thread to forewarn people just in case members are contacted by one of them... there are probably hundreds of these cases happening and all different names.. i personally have been down this track and would be so HAPPY to write this mongrel's name in this forum to forewarn people... & i will be on my website when all is cleared... I'm not going to protect anyone's name that does something so terrible to innocent people... let the coward sue me... i will be publicly naming this person on my website with every particular i have about him when all is cleared up... all i can say is... "bring it on".. i would LOVE for this person to take me for deformation of character... but i doubt a person with such coward actions would do anything like this... they are the biggest cowards and losers in the world and WHY should we protect them by not publically displaying their names ???

Just my thoughts...

Lynda

Lynda, I totally agree. If it weren't for the fact that I was representing other farms who I know would prefer not to stir up controversy and whom I have the greatest respect for I would probably have long ago hashed out the whole story. I heard today that a Pyramid Society board member and two more high profile farms have been irritated by this girl.

In my case it was not a scammer but a sick little rich girl whom by her station in life is able to get away with people being far too forgiving of her. We are putting together multiple horse deals for her and being lied to for weeks about how hard it is to get her banking done or her packages delivered for the fact that she is female, unmarried, and in Saudi Arabia. For this reason and because she is an astute student of horses and knows her pedigrees and what she likes she is easily flying below most people's radar. She has in fact transferred over 100K in funds to various people none of whom have ever been paid in full or been relieved of the horses which have been paid for in various percentages of their purchase prices.

Will gladly name this girl in private emails. Another victim of hers is itching to name her and just may.

I think we all - in our various different situations - have to be careful about the legalities of what we do in public. In my case it is simple regard for my sellers. In yours it seems you clearly will have the ability to name this scumbag soon! Good luck!

Allison

Hello Allison,

I can fully understand your situation... it's just a gut renching experience when something like this happens... i have never been so stressed over the past several weeks, considering this transaction happened back in June this year.. funds were cleared in Spetember and cheque was declared stolen by this mongrel in late October out of pure spite from the buyer.. this idiot actually confessed to cancelling the cheque out of be a you know what.... so his silly mistake by emailing such admitting to it has been forwarded to the bank and i am "hoping" this is in my favour.... but there is no way i am paying back the bank "alot" of money due to this terrible person and the banks fault, they should have never cleared the money, let it clear for over 6 weeks & then send contact me saying the chq was declared stolen and i have to pay the bank bank.. "no way"..... so i am going to all lengths to fight this and get this person what he deserves.... the bank actually told me that after funds are cleared there is a 6mth leway that a person can declare a chq stolen !!!! This is so wrong.. why do they place a 45 working day clearance on an international cheque if a person can declare a che stolen within a 6mth period....its weird situation.... thankfully in my situation i still have the horse.... i am so angry, so stressed and being so close to Xmas its not fair and people should be warned.. so please everyone.. be ever so careful.. i have been in the industry for close to 20 yrs... & we always think everything runs smoothly but you really have to be careful of cheats and unruly people... its very sad that it happens but it sure opens your eye's as to what people can and will do to benefit themselve's.... anyway who would like to email me i am glad to tell you who this person and his clients are... i would hate for anyone to go through what my hubby and myself are experiencing at present...it's mainly the waiting that is worrying but i always say.. "think positive". People say you shouldn't tell people to much but i should it may help others in future and warn people... we always think "it will never happen to us" but it sadly did...

Lynda :-(

Because SO MANY of you have written asking for more details and comparing names to your own contacts I will expand a bit. Hopefully anyone contacted will find their answers in my descriptions since I won't name her publicly. She is using other names now anyway. (For this information email me.)

This is a delightful 23 year old, single, affluent Saudi girl who is of the same tribe as the royal family so my Saudi contacts say this means she does actually carry the title Princess, even though she never claimed it with me. Her knowledge and love of the horses made her a wonderful phone pal and she even helped me with Arabic names, stories, and customs. We struck up quite a friendship because of my interest in Arabic culture and arts. She even invited me to her (now I know "imaginary") wedding.

What became apparent after many months and thousands of dollars of international phone calls and DHL packets is that she is pathologically deceitful and unconscionably irresponsible. So much so it's been really hard for me to fathom. And, yes, she is known to be so by those in her closeknit Arabian horse community in Saudi. But because of her station no one can say or do much.

This "buyer" continuously plays the feminist card appealing to those of us who long to see girls like her enjoy the freedoms that our daughters do in the rest of the world. "I cannot drive in my country and I wasn't able to get our driver to take me to the bank. I will go tomorrow for sure." and "I'm such a poor record keeper. I assure you the wire transfer went through I just can't find the papers with the tracking numbers. I'll call you back in ten minutes." and even, "Because I am single and my father doesn't like horses he won't sponsor me. I am an outcast in my country. No one will sit next to me at the shows or put my name with my horses in the stud books." These lines or something like them have played out over and over again in phone conversations for the past several years with some of the world's most esteemed breeders. This is the key to knowing of whom I speak. It's her trump card.

At least a DOZEN farms around the world have had bad experiences with her which range from holding horses off the market for far too long awaiting her imaginary wire transfers which never come, to one Pyramid Society member who completely lost her soul and tens of thousands of dollars to this girl. Two have contacted me this week!

She did in fact transfer in excess of 100K over a three year period to one seller but this seller is still owed a great deal on vet and board bills on horses all of whom have never been exported and are sitting unproductive on her farm. Said seller also lost face with a client who kept 60K to cover lost sales and lost foal production on multiple mares who were tied up for 18 months on a sale that never completed.

Because of these sporadic payments this poor breeder (I will refrain from judging her sanity) has followed her "client" on wild goose chases around the globe from the Salon Du Cheval ("Oh, yes, please pay for my room and I'll be right there, I'm getting on the plane now.") to Finland ("My veterinarian is in the airport now with your money, don't you see him? He's called to say he's looking for you at gate "XX" and you aren't there.")

My own client, another highly respected farm, was put into a horrible position by taking a credit card payment as deposit which is still sitting in escrow. We are all afraid it could be disputed and removed from their account at any time. And being the unreproachable veteran community members that they are they don't want to keep it, yet are powerless to return it for fear of further damage down the road.

I HATE what this girl has done to so many of us. It's about the loss of self respect. Those of us who are being used are not country bumpkins. We're normally asute, responsible, successful business people in our other pursuits. She has capitalized on the current mystique around selling US horses to the Middle East and wasted the time of many of my friends. According to the calls and emails I get every week she is actually STILL "shopping" while there are GOOD, REPUTABLE breeders out there owed tens of thousands of dollars on GOOD HORSES.

Forgive my rambling.

So...if a young, sweet-sounding girl calls you from the Middle East and tells you she wants to buy a horse RUN!!! RUN FAST!!!

From the looks of it, it's only a matter of time. She's making the rounds and there are only so many of us left that HAVEN'T dealt with her.

Asking forgiveness for my blunt, open disclosure and wishing you all blessings in your business dealings - horse and otherwise, Allison

I received two very similar almost identical emails when I had my daughter's Welsh Section C for sale on a couple of British websites, so not only Arabians' being targeted! The website blocked this person and I think sent warning emails to advertisers. Obviously not the same person, but there are a lot of people out there who seem to enjoy this sort of thing.

Yes, Cate and Mystikal, there are hundreds of these types of true scammers out there. This subject, in fact, should probably have its own thread with some of the emails posted into our reading panes so that people can learn to recognize them. And the latest names and email addresses used could be added to a "hitlist."

However, these types of scams are really pretty easy to recognize once you see the patterns they all use. I don't even waste my time replying with them.


A

It's not all gold that glitters

I get the impression that the noble arabian horse
To Some ignoble people
Is just like toys in a big sand box
Just toys

Hello,

Allison: I am so sad to hear that your Dilemma with this Saudi girl is still going on. Like you said, she gets close to people she wants to foal and studies their personalities to see how she can get through to you. In your case, she used your sympathy for her being an oppressed Saudi girl to get the best of your time and other resources.

Usually people who lie and cheat soon become exposed in their environment and start trying to fool people far away. This girl's financial ability added to her power to give others the trustable image she needs to play the game.

I totally agree with Lynda and I have been really encouraging you to expose this person to everyone and what is better than exposing her lies to everyone at a popular Arabian Horse Forum like this ... However, not saying any name and just cautioning everyone about Middle Eastern buyers specifically harms everyone at the Middle Eastern community who are in love with the Arabian breed and they all have to pay the price of losing credibility although they have done nothing ... It is like hurting a whole part of the world and protecting the one person who is responsible for the fraud I am sure hundreds if not thousands of horses bought from the US, Europe, and Australia over the years for Middle East buyers and both buyers and sellers are happy, but this person or another did wrong doesn't mean to generalize ...

Everyone of us who uses the internet suffers so much from Spammers which most of them just annoy people for the fun of it or whatever. It is not a bad idea to be carefull in any international transaction that you have the guarantees and deposits that are needed to do business and protect your rights.

I think the story of this girl is inconsistent which means I wouldn't be surprise if a lot of what you know about her are lies .... Does it make sense if she is from the Royal family to be unable to get a driver?!!! ....unreal.

I wish if there is anything I can do to help you or anyone in such circumstances and would always love to expose these kinds of people.

Good luck,
Ali.

Ali,

Your insight into this little girls behavior is wise far beyond your years. You clearly understand why it hurt several of us so much. It really helps to have the understanding of others.

Please, please don't think I am trying to shed a bad light on all Middle Eastern buyers. I was foolish to be so afraid of sharing details a few months ago when I started this thread. I just have a deeply ingrained business habit of maintaining confidentiality when the affairs of others are concerned. And many other reputable people were caught up in this. It's so easy for warnings to look like gossip.

I really thought she'd probably go away in shame after our ordeal and was so surprised to find months later she was still up to her nonsense. Recently when it was reactiviated I asked Aleksi to change the thread title to be more specific. It is only just dawning on many of us that this is truly a deeply disturbed and unethical person, not just someone who has had bad luck in her business dealings. So please give us time to adjust our thinking.

Everyone please know that I am speaking about ONE SPECIFIC BUYER who has caused so much trouble. I certainly don't think her actions are indicative of other buyers from this part of the country. She could have just as easily been from Idaho, USA and I would have warned people to watch out for a young buyer from Idaho, USA who had the following stories. People can easily change their names. But this girl cannot hide her methods and her pathology. It came out in every conversation with every person she spoke to. This is what gives her away.

Best wishes,
Allison

That whole thing sounds the same old stole money order scam that has been around for several years. The solution is simple, accept payment by bank tranfer only and the horse doesn't leave until paid form

Ali and others I wanted to add some of my deeper more personal thoughts to this discussion:

When I first began working with this "client" the irresponsible business behavior didn't take long to show its face. I struggled constantly with needing to get the insight of others from her own culture or who did business with people from her part of the world so that I could determine what was reasonable. I knew that it might not be reasonable for me to hold the expectations of business protocol with her that I do with people in my own country due to simple differences in our way of life and in doing business.

As a professional self-employed business consultant all my life many years ago I developed my own set of internal standards for what I consider acceptable on the part of people that sought to do business with me. Simple things like keeping their word, calling when they say they will call, following through on the financial details of our agreements, etc. It would only take one or two hints of my not being able to trust that someone could meet these standards before I would simply move on. I have "let go" clients that could not meet these standards because of my own sense of self worth. My time is valuable.

However, when the differences between what I held as acceptable and how she was conducting our business became obvious I enlisted the help of my consulate's commercial division in Jeddah. I was concerned about hardlining her or offending someone who might consider my expectations unimportant. I also researched many websites including one of the sister of our own, HRH Alia, concerning the ongoing cause of empowering Arab women. So many times the standards that I set for business and this girl's habits clashed but I sought at all times to gain understanding in order to be more reasonable in my expectations. And so did my clients. And this is how she was able to get as far as she did. I share this so that others won't make this mistake.

I am learning more and more recently about being reasonable in my expectations due to the realities of becoming a stepmother. For instance, it's not reasonable of me to expect the kind of open, full communication that I get with my own natural children from my stepson who was raised by his single father in a military culture. It would be an exercise in futility for me to expect this so I am constantly adjusting my own internal expectations when I deal with him. As I become more tolerant he becomes more communicative. And we're both growing, which is the goal, isn't it? Likewise, with this girl I sought understanding at all times about what was reasonable FOR HER in her circumstances. And this is where it became difficult.

The reason I'm sharing some of this is that while I hoped this transaction would be a great lesson for me in learning to understand other people it actually became clear to me that what I was engaged in was a dance with someone that I would NEVER be able to understand. I will never be able to understand how this girl sleeps at night. I will never understand the utter selfishness which drives her to lie repeatedly to people who are trying to help her. I will never understand how she could take advantage of hardworking small breeders who couldn't afford to lose income to her selfishness. And several have. I will never understand why she could admonish me over and over to protect her reputation while she damaged those of so many other people.

I'm grateful to this forum for providing in some small measure a tool for people around the world from many different walks of life to share a desire for better understanding of each other. I think we desperately need more of this in our world today.

Allison

"Guest" I'm not sure what post you are referring to but "the same old stole money order scam" description does NOT fit the circumstances of those who have been taken advantage of by the buyer who is the subject of this thread.

Perhaps you missed the point or are referring to the email scams described by one poster on the thread yesterday. It would be helpful of you to clarify your comments when you post about an earlier comment in the midst of an ongoing conversation which is moving along.

Dear Allison,
I think it's a real shame that people have been hurt in this way, and as Ali expressed, i think we feel extra badly that our culture be used as excuses and a front for such things. As he said, the excuses are "unreal",to us, but plausible I suppose to those less familiar with this area. I hope you all come out of this ok,and that the young lady in question realises the harm she is doing ALL ROUND, to herself as much as anyone, by this behaviour.

Allison,

As Princess Alia and Rahhal both said, it is unfortunate that someone is using Arab culture as an excuse to behave unethically.

As a general rule, good business practice is good business practice, in all cultures. I have lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, and in other Arab countries, as well as the West, and I have found most people to be ethical, with a few exceptions everywhere.

If you are working with a buyer, regardless of the origin, have a contract prepared that stipulates clear terms and conditions, that protects both seller and buyer, to minimize misunderstandings and potential conflcts.

I hope you are able to work out your problems.

Majid

Thank you for sharing all this mess. Some education is painful, but your advise and heads-up will help others in the future.