Greetings One and All!

We all know there are no perfect horses, and for that matter no perfect people. Assuming that most of you recognize a good Arabian horse when you see him/her, what CONFORMATION faults or flaws about a stallion for instance would prevent you from considering breeding to him?

I consistently see comments here about leg faults and yes, good legs are desirable. But I think about the famous Thoroughbred racehorse, Seabiscuit, currently being celebrated in a newly released motion picture, and I know this horse did not have good straight legs, but he truly was an impressive performer.
He beat the great War Admiral. Many people believe he ran on pure heart. Probably he did, but what I'm getting at is what do we mean when we say a horse has crooked legs? What do you mean by "crooked"? Be specific. Is the horse calf-kneed, slightly tied in at the front tendons? Does he have off-set cannon bones? What about cow-hocks? Do you really believe cow-hocked horses can't be atheletes?

Is there an expert here that could discuss each of these leg faults, and others, and the long-term effect these faults could have on a horse's performance. Any geneticists? Are these leg faults consistently passed on?
Clubbed feet have been a problem in the Arabian horse show world for many years. Does a slight clubbed foot cause a horse to not be able to perform well?

Some of the structural faults that I find undesirable--but I certainly wouldn't "kill" the horse because of them!--include:
long back, shallow hip, very straight shoulder, thick, course throatlatch, and a neck that does not come high off the shoulder in a pleasing arch.

Length of neck is not so important as the shape and the way it is set on the horse's body. I belive that if a horse is well balanced (nice three-circle construction) and smoothly coupled, has a pleasing "typey" head, and reasonably straight legs, I can accept minor flaws elsewhere. However, I do like a horse to have a nice, high tail-set. I must admit that I'm picky when it comes to that. I've noticed some absolutely beautiful straight Egyptian stallions with fabulous tail sets.

I like stallions to be masculine in appearance and I like mares to appear feminine. I prefer lots of refinement, but also appreciate a horse that's got lots of substance, as long as he isn't course or "meaty," especially about the head.

Finally, think about some of the beautiful children you've seen in your lifetimes. Some may have parents that had plain, almost unattractive features and mishappen legs, etc. Yet, the children are nearly perfect! So it is with horses and other creatures of nature!

Comments?

--Susan

Yes susan, there are exceptions to the rule. It is also said that a bee could never fly, but she does.

this is why the Breeder MUST TEST THE HORSES under stress. that's when you find out if it is lasting, or not.

that's when you find out if those tendons last or bow (break down) the cowjhocks have enough power to propell the rest or hold it at all (I think cowhocks are least of a fault worry) the offset cannon bones carry the horse(remember the legs are the pillars of the horse, carrying it and you) and you for sure cant ride that high tail carriage, if that's all the horse has.

And if you have bad joints, you for sure will have trouble.
and if you have no whithers, you slide between the ears, if there is no decent girth, the horse might give out sooner,
if you have a club foot you need to find out if you have stumbling horse, etc.etc.

therefore TEST.

Have a nice day
Hansi

Hansi,
With this being said, are you stating that most faults are acceptable as long as the horse lasts under extreme testing of different sorts?

In a stallion, I'm very picky about them having short backs, good length of croup and hip, they need the natural arched neck.....and flying movement. Amongst other things I require.

I will never buy any horse that has club feet, crooked looking legs, horrible temperment...etc.

To me, the legs are the most important, they carry the rider and themselves over all types of terrain and the legs have to hold up and not break down. The body however plays a good role in how well they hold up under stress conditions.

My mare isn't perfect by any means, I can name off the faults that she has....so I know what i need to look for in a stallion if I decide to breed her again, though she is not perfect, she is beautiful..and when in movement I can't take my eyes off of her Her colt was very nice, though not by a stallion I would have chosen for my mare. My mare hasn't been tested yet, but I do plan on doing this.

Again, what faults do you all see as something that should never be bred on, under any circumstance?

The above ^^^ post was made by me, Teri.....sorry bout that, forgot I'm not on my computer at home!

Teri

It is strange but true that leg faults don`t necessarily prevent fantastic performance. I recall vividly the first time we tried to help out the tourist horses in Petra by a vet advising them. We also had a farrier from England who had been there a lot and so who was quite used to the saituation there. After the young vet`s impassioned advice he calmly said that IDEALLY she was quite right, by theoretic values the horses should all be unable to walk at ALL, but they DO and somehow adapt/compensate, so to suggest less drastic and more practicable reforms were a better idea. My personal opinion is that leg faults tend to be very frequently passed on to offspring, and are quite hard to get rid of. Also they seem to be disregarded to a large degree in the ring as oppose to say a sloping croup which may not be so attractive but does not endanger the horse`s performance or chances of a good life IF NO LONGER A SHOWHORSE. I would therefore think quite hard before using a stallion with horribly offset knees, wispy bone, weak knees,etc, and if I DID then would be careful which mare i put him to in order to try to counteract the negative effect. Whether or not that would succeed is really not in our hands- hence the constant surprise and excitemant of breeding! Nasty (meaning really vicious) behaviour would normally worry me but that is nowadays often a result of bad experiences, sadly, and may just indicate a very clever and proud animal . Alia

Susan,

Interesting subject. Years and years ago there was a tremendous Arabian mare that I adored on sight...she was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen anywhere and epitomized the ideal Arabian to my eyes. I was all set to buy her and had my vet come out and do a prepurchase exam on her. She didn't pass....very bad offset cannons. I was devastated. Twentyfour hours later I realized I didn't care and called the people back to tell them I would buy her anyway. She had sold to the stallion owner (who actually threatened to sue my vet for saying the truth of the legs...oh well). The upshot of this tale of woe....several years after that the same vet said to me, "You know, so many Arabians can have the most dazzling of bad faults...yet they still don't break down whereas the average non-Arabian would be a cripple and on the way to Alpo with the same faults!"(I could have strangled him!)

To this day, several decades after that incident...I still grieve for that mare who lived a long and wonderful life and last heard is still going strong! For years I called to see if they would sell. Now the point of this...besides my continuing grief...is that she was mostly inbred Pritzlaff Egyptian plus Davenport. Over the years I've indeed seen some odd conformational faults and yet the Arabians, mostly of the older lines, have remained sound despite problems that would leave another breed of horse useless.

Of course I am not advocating breeding faults...I would hope to see them corrected BUT, if genuinely enamored of a horse with significant conformational issues...ask your vet and other experts this, "On a scale of 1 to 10 with ten being worst...how bad is the fault; is it possible breeding could correct it? Will she/he be so crippled in a few years that she will be useless? (With years of looking my greatest concerns are now things like heart murmurs-those that only a good vet can detect or special testing.)

I've learned that offsets are fairly common and that they are undoubtedly heritable but bred to the right individual the resulting baby's problems can be minimized. That is usually true of most faults and some, by the way, can be fixed with just a nutritional adjustment! If you find the right horse...go for it, don't diddle but DO have a good advisor or two.

Interesting post Susan, along with interesting answers, I’m still prepared to say I’m learning though experience has taught me a few things about horses along with my vets and certain authors. For instance - one particular paragraph in the Sheykh Obeyd book basically suggests, the Arabian Horse is what pleases the eye of the beholder!

Not repeating what I’ve already written (refer to the thread - Crooked Legs) – could you suggest what you mean by cow-hocks? This one is my “pet” fault, I wouldn't like to think you’d be perpetuating the wrong concept of this terminology along with varied terms used to describe ‘faults’. Faults to my mind are life threatening, Nature’s compensations are something else. Knowing which is which is vital – not only as a Breeder (of any calibre), but also the rider/driver.

Princess Alia and Gari, I agree with you both – especially after reading some of the first hand experiences of early western writers. Unfortunately, some of their terminology leaves a little to be desired for describing exactly what they were seeing, as like our current terminology!! RD Upton, in particular, along with the Blunts described the Arabians of the late 1800s. There’s no doubt about it, the Breed had faults, with this in mind – my question would be : will there ever be a chance to “correct” these problems ie improve on the Breed as a whole. Considering that Nature and therefore genetics essentially, under the husbandry of the Bedouin, made the Breed what it is; can modern Breeders right these imperfections? My thoughts wonder to Betty Finke’s article, published in the Australian Studs & Stallions a few years ago… finding horses ‘throwing back’ to their ancestors, ancestors of more than a few generations. If this is the case, and I certainly think its more than probable, how would it be possible to truly “improve” on the Breed as a whole? After a 100+ years of western intervention – there are still the same kind of lesser valued attributes being perpetuated!

To my mind – there’s no doubt about it, it certainly is a case of “reality v perfection”… Nature is reality; Perfection is MAN made. mho

Susan asks - what CONFORMATION faults or flaws about a stallion for instance would prevent me from considering breeding to him? - for me this is simple – I would look for attributes which will not enhance what the mare has ie a stallion must complement a mare and setting an attribute I wouldn’t like to see in my breeding stock/marelines.
To me, balance is vital, be it a square or rectangular balance, along with accepting the Arabian Horse as a horse, understanding what makes it a horse and an Arabian Horse at the same time. Everything about an individual horse should have symmetry about it, if it takes compensations to achieve this, then what compensations will breeders and end-users (riders/drivers etc) accept is a personal preference – just like the Bedouin. The varying types of an Arabian will have separate symmetrical values, therefore, do broad encompassing values cum rules really merit worth on individuals who are allowed to be varied by the very nature of their pedigrees, by the Bedouin who bred them for their diversity of type?

I’ve seen varied ways to assess a horse, Arabian Horses in particular. After, looking, reading and viewing, my preference has gravitated towards people who can explain an equine’s anatomical values in terms of bio-mechanics, that is their compensatory values. After all, this is what makes them work, as a horse and therefore an Arabian Horse! I don’t like looking for faults, though I believe I can now recognise them. I prefer to look for values. To my mind, to find values needs an understanding of equine anatomy and Nature’s compensations.

Good morning Terri and all

What I am saying is that no horse is without faults, and one need to recognize those which are detrimental to its functionability under stress.
When a Horse goes long distance, through the deserts, or mountains, rough rocky terrain,or marchi grounds, carrying a lot of weight, going for many miles, it does need good legs. It is obvious that those joints carry the greatest stress, i.e. the knees, ankels,hocks.
I dont know how all those offset cannons over the years appear, or club feet and flimpsy hocks. that has to be inbred.

As you might know, there are two types of horses, the square type and the rectangular type. the latter is often confused with a long back. the latter also is a distance horse, while the square one is more for shorter distances. My personal preferences are the rectangular horses, and that's what we breed.

I am a "Leg person" and know what serious faults can do.
If those pastern are toooo long, too much strees is put on the rest of the leg, but so is if they are too short. By enlarge the Se's have a shorter pastern than other breeds
Lately I am seeing at the show these long pasterns, and that worries me.

there is no way that a horse will last when the tendons are tight in. It should have a straight line from the fetlock up to the back of the knee.

A horse with a short,steep shoulder will not break down, its just uncomfortable to ride and the stride is short.
A horse with no whithers also will not break down because of it, but it will make you fall between the ears,when going over hilly terrain or so.

A Neck too long and too thin is trouble. A neck too short and thick is better than the above. A horse weakover the loins might never break down, provided the rider does not sit on it -those horrible cutback saddles-
A horse with a poor girthline might also last, if it is healthy and has an attitude and or/talent, which most Se's have.
And if the horse has "heart" many a fault he will overcome.He is a "survivor" and will rather die, then give up. What good is to have an almost perfect horse with a "chickenheart" eh?

A horse with a table top line looks neat, but you might have trouble getting the rearend under you. there has to be a certain angulation- hip-buttock-stifle-

What I am also trying to say is, learn to recognize the faults of your horse, but honestly, and then deal with it.
Only you, the rider, can tell after testing, and that does not mean ring around the rosies in a show ring.

For instance in Morocco I have seen those lovely incredible "Barbs". Many were splayfooted- feet turning out. this could have happened because of poor ferrier work. I did not see any ankle injuries because of it and these horses were ridden hard.

If you have a trainer, who really knows horses, and what its conformation can do, he should tell you straight forward, and the owner should be grateful and never be insulted.

But I strongly object, if in a haLter class horses are pinned champions which I KNOW, cant run around a block, but its championship is earned because of those extra points for type. THAT TO ME IS RIDICULOUS.

I know of one SE stallion here in the USA who has horrible front legs, horrible tendos etc. He won numerous halter championships. His children and grand children have the same problem, but so does his sire and dam line. this horse goes under saddle, but not stress performance, which he could not last, I feel certain.

I also yet have to see an SE born mean. their intelligence and sensitivity makes them object to unreasonable demands by the owner/rider. Now that is only common sense..

We have an SE young stallion "Serenity Aruf" (1997) who is- and I am almost ashamed to admit this- is a veterinarian measured 16,1- because I often said- no Asil Arab is 16 hands tall. I consider him an execellent horse.
So we sent him out to Colorado for sporthorse training late June of this year..Yesterday was his first show- and he won the championship with a 76,66 point score. He could have done better, had he had more experiences. He did not give it all. But it indicates to me, that my judgment of the horse was okay. You see, also I am always anxious what other klnowledgable horsemen/women think. that is very important to me. I dont want to wear rosi sunglasses and breed horses by wishfull thinking. this also means that all our stallions have also produced champions in stress performances and halter, as they did themselves. Mind you, it also takes super broodmares, which really is the clue. And being that old-fashion type horsewoman, we only breed by natural service.

anyway Terrii we all can talk, the proof lies in the pudding.

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms, Florida

HI,

My name is Lynda & breed purebred arabians in Australia, our stud name is "Allyndah Arabians".... have just become a member of this group & i find this topic very interesting. I agree no horse is perfect but one must breed to a standard & this includes a conformation standard also. Genetics play a major part in any breeding programme although hidden faults are hard to be noticed but eventually these appear with the result of a new born foal.... Visible faults however are a different kettle of fish....

I personally am not overly worried about a fault such as "slight" cow hock, as long as the other attributes of the horse out weigh the problem of cow hock.... Then i would consider breeding to a stallion with this fault. But under no circumstances would i breed to a stallion with bad front leg faults, such as bench knees (offset cannons), behind at the knee, over at the knee, club feet & overly turned out front feet, i feel these are bad conformation traits & ones that should be steered away from when breeding a mare to a stallion. It does carry on in future foals.

I had a young person say to me recently as he has seen many video's of "exotic" arabians & some gorgeous ones too..... He said "I want to breed Exotic Arabians"....my husbands reply was, "But you cannot ride it's head" ... We all had a chuckle to ourselves, but when reality bites, anyone can breed a beautiful arabian with an exotic sculptured head but the challenge is to breed one with conformation to compliment it's beauty !!

Although i see many beautiful arabians & think, i would love to breed to that stallion, but on closer inspection or valuation of it's progeny & see more than a few less admired traits....i stick to my guns.... In the future i am better off in the long run....

Just my view.....

Lynda

Ladypurr....

Your remarks bring to mind a horse I picked up for a very small price years ago. He was purebred Arabian, somewhat underweight, and I am not sure now why I bought him except that he was really cheap and he needed someone to love him... that was quite obvious I guess his gentle personality and need for care spoke to me more than anything else...

Anyhow, I brought him home and promptly noticed he was the weirdest moving horse I think I have ever seen. There was no posting to that trot! I lived in a subdivision and my next door neighbor loved horses too, and had some room. Since I was using her back field, I promptly took this little grey horse over and gave him to her. She took a look and named him Sheik, and then loved him!

He could not have found a better permanent home than he did with her... and that weird little trot did not bother her at all... and she pumped the groceries to him till she had a fat and shiny little white Arabian in her back yard

Back then I rode endurance and loved it, and she and I decided to have our weekend jaunts together... Loads of fun, old trailer, a van to sleep in, a tarp and stuff to eat, and we were all over the Southeast Region with my horse and her little Sheik, who turned out to be quite the competitor in Limited Distance!

He left more than one vet sratching their heads at the start of the weekend, at check in. As he happily trotted out for them with his tail flagging and his strange way of going, most of them would have probably pulled him during the ride for unsuitability and lameness if they had not seen him at the start, to know it was just his way of going...

Straight shoulders, BAD clubbed feet, stifle troubles (they didn't exactly work like a normal horse) and probably more! But he could keep up with the best of them at his limited distance (25 & 30 milers), in the mountains and on the flat... did not matter to this little cast-off horse from somewhere. Any one of us would have turned him down as anything but a pasture companion! But my friend rode that little guy for years, and he sure made me think, others too I bet. I have seen that little horse race for the finish with top starters. He was never pulled for lameness, not even once! His recoveries were wonderful! And, he lasted for years and retired sound (tongue in cheek here... he was as sound as when he started... but no vet would have probably ever called him sound for performance work if they had to judge his conformation and legs and way of going!)

In our search for perfection, what do we sometimes overlook? I know... I don't want to breed bad conformation either!! I want good horses on my farm with good legs and classic looks!! But, I have never forgotten that little Arab that showed a lot of us that he could do it too... even if he did move and look a bit funny!

Julia

just found this quote - about sums up my feelings towards Perfection and Realism....

"The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails."
- WILLIAM A. WARD

When reading Julia's story about the weird movement of that strong little horse, it reminded me that I have often wondered just WHY we are so fanatic about good conformation, yes, me too! In theory, it is quite clear: faults lead to early wear and make a horse less useful too soon. Or do they? I know of so many "cases" like Julia' s story, and likewise I now of so many cases with excellent conformation but always lame or something else bothering the horse. I have come to think that conformation is not everything, meaning the structure of the horse as we can see it from the outside. I think that eg the quality of the soft and hard tissues is also very important. And you can't see that. I have seen horses with very well angled shoulders that could not move at all, and I could not understand why. I wonder...would that have something to do with the quality of the soft tissues? And of course we all now the importance of the horse's will to perform. There is much between the ears (or under, since we speak about horses ) as well. And the next thing is heredity. If we now so terribly little about what makes a good horse, we now even less about how faults inherit. We know that some strains have certain characteristics, desirable otr not, so there we can suspect a hereditary element. But that is not to say that the same fault is hereditary in a horse from a different strain. There is much influence by nutrition and growing-up conditions. So looking at a horse for breeding purposes one knows even less.

Questions, questions, it is so complicated and we know so little, isn't that what makes it all so fascinating? Always wanting to find out more, to learn and look around and speak to experienced breeders and then to try and make the perfect combination ;-) That is what I just love! And this forum is an excellent opportunity to exchange experience and thoughts, to ask questions ad to get answers that make one think. Keep it up, friends!

And o yes, to answer the original question: I do not say that I'd never use a stallion for some reason. I may not want to use him on a mare because of eg the same conformational faults, but I may very well consider him for another mare. And I allow myself to let the colour play a role

Hi!

I don't think any of us would want to breed a horse that had as many problems as that little gelding, Sheikh, and heaven knows what his end would have been if he had not come to me and wound up in my friend's loving hands... The joy they gave each other was so much more than the problems. And no one told him he could not compete cuz he moved funny and his feet were clubbed and his stifles worked funny And my friend did not know the difference back then... they just had fun together!

Perfection is something we reach for, not ever to be obtained. We can come as close as possible and do our best and breed wonderful horses who are beautiful and who CAN DO whatever we put them to, but still there is a fault someplace in each horse.. however small. Perfection should not be the standard we use to club each other to death with, or to elevate our program over that of another

Hey, they might have gelded or put down Seabiscuit in today's racing world.... and they would have destroyed (if they put down) the greatest race horse of his time...who out-ran the more "perfect" War Admiral

This is not to say that I disagree with statements Hansi (and others) makes about using or testing these horses, or the statements made by others on the need for careful breeding, to breed out faults, etc.! They should be more than wall flowers if we can get them trained and working somehow! I also don't disagree with the need to breed the best we can, to improve our horses in their get if we can. I would never have left that little Sheik a stallion to breed on those awful faults. I gelded a pretty colt of my own, partly because he just didn't measure up to my stallion yardstick, while breeder friends I know groaned at the thought of him being a gelding He is not a cull, but he is not what would be my choice of a stallion either! So I made his life easy and he is going to be one heck of a performance and hopefully amateur halter gelding!

But like bterlaan said so well... there is more to a horse than the perfection we see on the outside by looking at conformation...

Julia

Dear Julia, you said it so well! I once heard that it Oriental carpetmakers were obliged to construe one little fault in their carpets, lest they be pefect, since no human can make perfect things. That is the privilege of Allah. Wonderful philosophy, don't you think?

Dear Diane,

Being a lover of the great writings, I really appreciated your quote! Your comments were thought-provoking and I enjoyed reading them.

Best wishes!

--Susan

Dear Ema,

Thanks for sharing that heart-warming story! If you've not seen the movie Seabiscuit yet, RUN and see it! It's truly a reminder that no matter what cards life deals you, play them for all they're worth and don't complain. There were so many inspiring stories in that movie--not just of Seabiscuit! It is a tour deforce of triumph over hardship and hard knocks.

--Susan

Yes susan, that is right.

Therefore, it is essencial to TEST the horses, and the proof will lie in the pudding.

A further test will be what offsprings do, and those should also be TESTED, when the time comes.

No product on this earth can succeed without it being TESTED, and dont we all ever so often TEST ourselves?

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms, Florida

Dear Hansi,

I couldn't agree with you more! If you are going to commit yourself to breeding fine Arabian horses, they should be functional creatures and not just beautiful to look at.

For as long as I can remember, I've always believed that the Arabian horse could excel in just about any endeavor. I'm thrilled to see how reining is becoming such a great event for them to compete in, and of course, the sport horse section permits them to shine and be judged more fairly.

My feelings about leg faults are that if a stallion has some serious faults, it doesn't make good sense to promote him as a breeding horse. If he were mine, I would geld him and work with him to make him a good peformance or trail horse. There are far too many stallions that really should be geldings. People just won't accept the reality of the situation. Ego can be a real detriment to rational decisions.

Your comments are always appreciated and insightful!

--Susan

Dear susan

Many f us have certain experiences. Testing is not only if the horse will last, but one might find out those hidden tallents. Look what made "Seabisquit: run- an "Alarmclock".

the Hungrian many years back had an undefeated thoroughbred mare. Her friend was a "Cat".they led the mare to the starting gate, then quickly took the cat to the finish line, and the mare raced to get to her, always winning. She was otherwise as calm as a cucumber.,

One time they cat was gone, aafter a race. then horses were shipped mostly by railroad car. the mare would not lead,load,would do nothing. Hours later the cat was found, the mare loaded and all was fine.

We once had a colt who was so placid, he thought all he will show is slowmotion walk,trott and canter.Nothing fizzed him until the starting gate opened, and he was gone
leaving all behind. I guess he thought he was the horse to preserve himself "for the kill":.

Highly talented people/animals sometimes need to be discovered. And such one can only do under saddle in rigid testing. One never knows what "Jewell" one has, eh?
What a great loss to many, I think.
Just dont know why some people wont believe in this.

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Hi Hansi,
Loved your story about the Hungarians and their cat-loving Thoroughbred. Was she at Babolna? Do you remember her name?
Best,
Tzviah

Hello all, very good reading here tonight.

I just have a comment to accompany all the other comments and many of you have said the same, in that it takes
more than just good legs, conformational elements to make a good race or proven
"doing" horse. Their mind, heart and lungs, muscle etc., play as much a part as all the rest of the horse. I have seen very good conformational horses that couldn't beat a mule around the track (would I put that horse in my broodmare band to produce race horses??) and I've seen others that I thought the front leg would come off, but never did and was a good proven race horse. So, you just have to get the combination just right to have the super horse. Although any fault at it's worst should be seriously looked at, especially if the horse is not proven. I'm sure Anyone would have selectively bred to Seabiscuit even though his legs left something to be desired.

I find that Arabian people do things backwards, where most race, or horses of other breeds have their careers first and breeding career after they have proven themselves. What are the big dollar race yearlings bring, you are reading so and so by so and so made $ 481,000 out of a dam that made $280,000, producer of two proven stakes winners to date. "big bucks here" We have had so many decades of not proving our horses first, that
we are seeing what has happened and the affects of this backwards thinking.
Our breeding of today are based on dreams, not proof. As, even if you are looking at the most perfect Arabian horse in the world, you still don't know if they can hack it out there in the real world. They might be able to win a halter class though.

Very good, can't wait to read more.

Georgia