It has occured to me as a breeder of SE horses that the venues for showing are
limited to The Egyptian Event and AHA sanctioned shows if I so choose. I say
that with reservation because I am aware that many SE as well as other preservationist breeders are not interested in showing against the "Scottsdale"
type of horse that has been promoted to be the "type" that will be pinned in class
A, Regionals, and at the National level. I believe this is a manifestation of the the
handlers and judges, which, for the most part, are one and the same. AHA is certainly aware of the declining numbers and registrations in the past few decades. I am wondering if the incorporation of SE and other preservationist classes into all levels of AHA shows. If a minimum number of horses would be required to hold a class. SE showing against SE. CMK against CMK etc. Class
champions and reserves could show back in the halter finals, etc. It would seem to me that this would increase the numbers of horses that would be showing at
all levels. Create a broader venue for preservationist breeders to show and promote their breed. And at the same time educating the general population as to the differences with in our breed. We have been including Halfarabs in all of these shows for the past 20 some years why not make a provision for all of us
that have been paying our dues and choosing not to show. I realize that this would create more work for tha AHA but that's their job. It would also generate
more revenue and numbers. I would be interested in feedback as to the feasability
of incorporating of an idea like this, or some variation of it. And how to go about
bringing it to fruition. Thanks

Bebah

Bebah,

At first blush your thoughts sounds like a wonderful idea, but unfortunately, I feel that it would only further to segregate the SE. The SE has all the qualities needed to compete in any sanctioned or unsanctioned show out there, this includes within the their breed and open shows. The problems faced by the SE are complex. There are tiers of competition depending on chiefly on your financial means... To expound on that comment, a person of financial means can afford to breed 100 foals, can afford to promote in all the finest magazines, hire the best trainers and staff..Now in my tier, I can perhaps breed for two to three foals a year. I can advertise within my local associations and post on the free websites to promote my stallion and foals for sale. Although, there are breeders, trainers, and horses that have been able to break through some of the politics. For the most part the game is what the game is... I wish I could come up with some magical cure for the problem, but perhaps it begins with each of us... Tracy

Tracy, you are absolutely correct. That is what the game is. But the game is not
working very well people and their horses are dropping out of the game at an alarming rate. I'm no magician either but I think that by changing the game or changing the rules to make it more accessable to small breeders like you and I ,
everyone benefits. It would increase numbers at shows, hopefully at all levels..
I think Imperial Bareez is one of the finest Arabian horses to come along in a great
while. You know his credentials. Imperial had planned to campaign him to the Nationals and changed their mind. Why ? Because he would probably experience
the same fate his grandsire Imdal did back in '88. The game, or system is working
onlly for a few. The few you abtly described in you reply. I told Myron Krause that
where we are heading is a handful of wealthy people and a handful of well known trainer/judges showing a few expensive, Scottsdale type Arabians. And
that will all be just before the demise of Arabian horse show venues. I think we
need to modify the system to make it more pallatable to more people. Thanks for your input Tracy. I don't think there is an easy or magical fix either. But I think we
have to start doing something different. Cause its broke and it needs fixin.

Bebah

There will be a resolution presented at the AHA Convention this year to change the way halter classes are conducted and judged.

It will be a scored system similar but not identical to the ECAHO system used in Europe or the system used at the Egyptian Event.

I believe that a scored halter system will help reduce the extremes and fads that we see prevalent in the current US system and provide an opportunity for high quality animals of different phenotypes to compete fairly as they do in Europe.

I hope any members of this forum who are delegates to the AHA convention will support this change and AHA club members should contact their delegates to vote for this resolution.

Yes, You are very correct it is broke and does need fixing... I don't see any reason why Imperial Baarez couldn't compete with anything going to Scottsdale..I don't see Imperial Stud as a small breeder by any stretch and I do believe they can compete at Scottsdale with many of the horses they have bred. I think they probably have the prestiege to compete, but Scottsdale hasn't been known for being SE friendly for many years now... For us as small breeders it may just be a matter of continuing to show and doing it for the sheer joy of doing it..I draw the line at many things regarding showing.. Would I ruin a good horse mentally or physically to win a ribbon, NEVER... Would use methods that are forms of torture to win a ribbon, NOT FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY. Would I ever surgically alter, dope, or medicate a horse to win a ribbon, AGAIN NEVER... Nor would I sell one of my horses knowing that it was to suffer such a fate... So, on those premises I might win an humanitarian award, but I don't think you will see me in the winners circle at a big show ever...

The Egyptian Event is set up as a breeders showcase, but in some circles it is a joke...To institute even more specialization just opens the door to more scorn. Very well you and I as small breeders my be caught up in an industry power struggle... The Egyptian Event is the big show for SE and ES and Scottdale is for all those that don't fall into that catagory.. But when money is involved and changing hands it is very hard to level the playing field and that is true for both venues... We showed at a weanling futurity the rules firmly stated no show halters, no whips, and no trainers... The top three came equiped with all three and enough paint to cover a good sized wall.. At the Egyptian Event one of the judges took the rules to heart and showed some notable trainers the gate to the crowd cheering, she was never asked back.. I don't think there is a way to fix the flaws in the system...You are dealing with various factions this is their livelihood, some are the hired trainer of a big farm and their promotions and commissions are based on the business that the farm brings in with fees and sales, some just have money to spend and enjoy the prestiege of owning a winner, and some are very small just doing it because they have some fine animals that shouldn't be over looked. When survival and prestiege butt heads an artifical situation comes into play and it currently has the whole industry in turmoil. We as an industry are breeding for something we see at a show that is as artificial as something out of Vogue or Harper's Bazaar... Perhaps, we need to hire judges that answer to the crowd and not the elite... Or perhaps we should let the crowd judge the horse on an individual basis... The crowd become the ultimate judge... Tracy

I do not think AHA rules would allow SE-only classes (or CMK or similar). I have no magic answer, either, and the resolution to be presented is anoather partial-improvement measure. Well, maybe it will do some good, and that's no reason to oppose it. But we should not look for that resolution as a panacea for the issue.

Anita

The new scoring system that Dick mentioned could change things a lot. I think that SE's would again be competitive in the halter arena with this system. I think they could win big time, specially the ones with good legs and motion.

You SE are already in somewhat of a subculture. So, don't segregate yourselves evenmore by trying to have separate classes. SE's should be in the mainstream of the breed. They have much to contribute.

Dave

Could one of you more knowledgable persons give us some insite into the new scoring in regards to halter? and or showing in general...

Another issue is truly the crowd couldn't judge as it would come down to which farm brought or bought the most spectators...It was rather a tongue in cheek answer, although, I do see a great deal of critique of the judging on various internet sites after a big showing event...My other thought is that in regards to some horses they really don't fit into one catagory or another... Some bloodlines are truly ecclectic and others are a mix of two bloodlines...Potentially you would have horses that could fit into two or three catagories and have equal right to show in both and therefore doubling their chances of getting in a championship class.. By following the Pyramid society rules a SE or ES could participate, but the ES may be Russian, Polish, CMK or whatever to a degree of half blood and still qualify to show in another specialized class..Now granted rules can be set up to level the playing field but as illustrated in my previous post some folks like to push the envelope and have the mentality that rules are made to be broken... Tracy

Good morning everybody

very interesting all your thoughts. But I dont understand the concern.
At our time the classes at the Nationals were much, much larger and the SEs did extremely well, as in Scottsdale. If they adopt the EE system, may God help us. That would bring the entire Arab industry on their knees, as it has with the SEs. Horses with bad conformation would win because of a particular type. Since there are many types, I just wonder what would be "In" from year to year. What makes anybody think that it was not a particular party who invented the unorxedoxed judging/point system at the EEs. It is that very system which has degenerated the SEs to a high degree. The real good SEs you dont see at the EE anymore, they stay home and do their thing.

But is is true, Scottsdale was always oriented for their type, at that time largely shown by Lasma.

Many people say, why is it that the SE people cant accept a defeat graciouly, like when Imdal was defeated and I. Baarez, in particular when many SE people dont know a good horse when they see one. These remarks we all have to content with and EARNED it!!! All I hear are particular stable names, like if there is nothing else around. And that is the greatest error we all can make.

Bloodlines other than the SE continue to prove themselves under saddle, promote the Arabian horse as a riding and sportshorse and take their chances at halter.

If anything, the sportshorse system could be the answer.

Just my opinion

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

I have not seen the resolution (I don't know if it has yet been proposed). I have heard from some of those who are working on this that it would have seven factors, each scoring a maximum of 20 points, with a category for deductions (for behavior problems, for example). And the scores would be posted for each judge. Maybe someone involved would post the proposed elements to be judged.

Anita

Here are the 7 elements of the proposed scoring system.

1. Movement 2. Conformation & quality at Walk 3. Legs & Feet. 4. Head. 5. Neck & Shoulder 6. Body & Substance 7. Arabian type & Presence Then we have a column for penalties (0-5) and one for comments.

The points are as follows.
20. Ideal
18-19. Outstanding.
16-17. Excellent
14-15. Extremely Good
12-13. Very Good.
10-11. Good
7-9. Average
5-6. Poor
3-4. Very Poor
1-2. Extremely poor

I'm glad that it encourages the whole scale of the 20 points. I really hope that it passes Convention in November, as we really need somehting like it here to reduce the emphasis on the 'hard stand up' which IMO has encouraged abusive training practices.

Thank you, Liz. Any chance they will also change the direction of work to be like the European system, so the HORSE is to the judges' side, not the exhibitor?

Also, if I may persue this link on this thread, are you satisfied that this group of factors will not continue to allow "pretty" to outweigh functionality?

Anita

Hi Hansi,

Do you think that the SE is discriminated against at certain shows? I have read posts where it is alledged that first they are discriminated against and then when they announce the parentage and name of the horses it is in effect stacking the deck in favor of certain bloodlines, breedings, farms, and trainers and the list goes on.. What do you think? From what I understand many SE owners just don't show period. Actually, Arabian owners in general are finding other venues or not participating at all...

As far as Imperial Baarez is concerned I would stand by my point of view that the he could compete with anything going to Scottsdale, Nationals, Salon De Cheval, or the Egyptian Event...He is a fine horse.. Is he Equine Perfection no there is no such thing... He is very charismatic a trait he inherited from his sire. I would be proud to have my mares bred to him and his offspring on my farm..

I don't know if it is your intention but in some instances you are very negative in your comments regarding the SE Breeder and the SE Horse...We have to appreciate each other and what we are trying to accomplish... WE (the Straight Egyptian Breeder) are in many cases our own worst enemy...We do more harm to each other and the breed by our short remarks and lack of tolerance for certain bloodlines and disunity among ourselves than a thousand remarks by people that don't respect the breed..I think for the most part SE Breeders are trying to do the best thing for the horse. Yes, mistakes have been made and will continue to be made.. People have to realize there is more to the SE than the horse they see in a magazine or at a show...

I very much do agree with you that riding classes are where we need to take our horses should we choose to show... My thought is that anywhere there is a great deal of money changing hands and rules that are upheld by some and disregarded by others, eventually people are just going to get tired of spending their money to participate... There is so much more to life than showing and the percentages are reflecting that... I personally like to load up some saddlebags with some lunch goodies and some water. Then take off riding through the Pigeon River eat the wild cherries, apples, and blackberries. Ride all day and then camp out at night and take a quick ride in the morning before going before leaving to go home... We invite kids out to the farm and allow them to ride with supervision.. When we have cars stop on the rode to watching the horses we invite them up for some coffee and a closer look...That is what floats my boat and doesn't cost me a dime other than the lunch fixins..That is the horse I breed and what I am about... Tracy

Thanks Liz and all

why are we putting neck and shoulder together?? I did not like putting Head and Neck together, and this is thanks God changed. But one can have a terrific neck and a bad shoulder or visa versa. I always looked at a neck as the "5th leg" of a horse, and a shoulder cant do a thing if the horse stumbles, etc, but a neck can. I think an immediate objection should be raised by true horsemen/women, meaning riders. They should divide this.

I also dont know if that 1-20 point system will work well. Guess, have to wait and see.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Other sectors/breeds are having their share of problems also. I just
read this story.

Saturday, 09/02/06
Walking Horse Finale Canceled
After 7 of 10 horses ousted, remaining entries withdraw


SHELBYVILLE, Tenn. — The World Grand Championship contest at the Tennessee Walking Horse industry’s
biggest show was canceled Saturday night, over fallout after several horse disqualifications.
It was the first time in the event’s 68 years that no Grand Champion was named.

Just before the World Grand Championship class — the final class of the Tennessee Walking Horse National
Championship — was to start, event officials announced over the arena’s public address system that horse
trainers whose horses did pass inspection had withdrawn from the contest. The trainers who withdrew, did this in protest
over the other seven trainers and their horses being disqualified for not passing inspection.

Chip Walters, the event’s director of media and public relations, made the announcement and thanked fans for their
patience and faith.

“We haven’t seen some of the horses we wanted to see. And in the World Grand Championship class, we’re not
going to be able to see some of the horses we wanted to see either.”

The crowd booed, drowning out the PA system until Walters spoke again. He said that because some of the horses
did not pass inspection, the trainers of the horses who did pass decided not to show either. In a show of support,
every horse withdrew from the class.
The crowd responded with a standing ovation.

According to the Tennessee Walking Horse Report’s Web site, 10 horses were entered to show in the
championship class but only three passed inspection.

Shelbyville’s annual Tennessee Walking Horse National Celebration has been mired in controversy this week.
Several horses were disqualified from events Aug. 25 after they failed federal inspections.

On Aug. 25, Federal Agriculture Department inspectors disqualified six horses. The rulings were unpopular with
enthusiasts at the show.
The disqualifications and ensuing ruckus led to a temporary shutdown of the Celebration. In 67 years, the show
had never been shut down for a reason other than bad weather.

At issue in that case was “soring,” a practice in which horses’ legs are deliberately injured to give the animals
a higher step. The practice is banned by federal law. •

Hansi, I am also troubled by the neck/shoulder combination. Granted, they are related, but I wonder if this opens the door to high-scoring for a "snaky", in-fashion neck even if the shoulder is bad. Of course, as the old song goes, "the ankle bone's connected to the knee bone; the knee bone's connected to the thigh bone, etc." so where would you stop separating parts?

Anita

Dear Anitae

Yes, one could have that fear. However a good judge would recognize a good and proper befitting neck. so I guess one has to give a Drawing" of a good neck, eh? who in their right mind would buy a swan neck horse, eh? I still am not comfortable with that 1-20 score system.

Anyway, all is an improvement, I think

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

The way I would look at it is this. If the shoulder has a good 45% slope then usually the neck has a top line from poll to highest point of the wither, which is twice the length of the underline from throat to chest. If the the shoulder is straight then the underline is longer, so they have a much better relationship to each other than the head and neck together. Points can be taken off if the shoulder is a good angle, but the neck is short and coarse with a thick throat. It won't be that difficult to my mind.

Dear Avanondale

Yes, I am very negative towards some breeders and SEs and will continue being so until the day I see them test their stallions before they breed from them,
produce functional SEs, rather than garden ornaments, and help bringin back respect towards our industry.

No, I dont think shows are discriminating against SEs. That's a bad excuse.
We all have shown under any kind of judge without problems.Of course nobody can win it all (although Serenity Sonbolah and some other imports of ours did)
just being in there and finishing sound, is already a win.

To sweettalk everything, just so that we all are a lovy,dovy family is not wise. Reality has to be maintained. you cant tell an owner with a bad legged horse that it is so good it will win the Tevis cup, eh?
But we can differentiate between a "Breeder" and a Sunday afternoon around the block rider, or one who just wants a horse to pet.

Many of our people wont show at the EEs, and have their reason. And if the champions and top tens are that good, why not show in all-Arab and open shows to find out what we really got? I like I Baarez but I assure you that there are superior SEs stallions out there than he and Imdal who also produce superior offspring, at least in my opinion. And if they would show at the EE, they would get the gate.

We need to have a complete overhaul, starting with a sound judging system and demand that stallions four year olds and up are presented under saddle, so that we can see how they really move and engage, and that "Before" they go into the halter classes.

Just my opinion
Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

If I may post my two cents, I think you hit the nail on the head. The wealthy farms who have wealthy clientele to back them up are well represented at showing events. Year after year at the Event, I see many small groups of backyard breeders load all their stuff and dreams to spare to head for Lexington. They never do very well in terms of the awards and ribbons. Us small breeders had better be in for the fun and camaraderie because, with small exception, the awards go those who play game well with plenty of money to back them up with fine trainers, photographers and someone at home to write the checks that often equal our annual salary.
I played the game with big boys back in the 80's, had a wonderful stallion that did well in class A competition. The shows were $1000 per event to include the trainer and all the flowers and drapes, Rie Young and Stuart Vesty came to my place and the finished photographs that I could hand in splendor on my aisle display carried a price tag of $1000. each, when all was said and done. I had more than one two page full color spread in AHW.
I couldn't sell foals because the straight egyptians those days were more classic and had less size than their polish counterparts. So when I look back at the videos and ribbons and trophies, my heart swells with pride for the stallion that took me on the ride of a lifetime. My beautiful boy even received fan mail and people would call and ask me if they could just come and see him and maybe touch him.
The bottom line s that the backyard breeder of Straight Egyptian horses cannot sell foals. I currently have a Shaikh al Badi grandson for sale out of a Thee Desperado g daughter, I cannot give this wonderful little man away. His Dam is equally well bred and I have extraordinary photographs of her showing off and I cannot sell her either. I am asking very very low prices after finding that a reasonable price wasn't generating much interest. I currently ride dressage. I choose my Thoroughbred or my Andalusian for this purpose because their size is better suited to me as well as their serene temperamnets which make them reliable mounts. My arabs tend to overreact to many things while under saddle at my age, I cannot afford injuries from coming out of the saddle. It is their incredible beauty and grace that keeps me in the game. I feel that their historical legacy is a powerful motivation to keep them in my life. They are always my favorite to interact and bond with.
These are the real confessions of someone in the trenches for more than three decades. I know I will inspire the ire of many who would say that their arabs are accomplished and reliable and this is most certainly true but not the prevalent scenario.
You will get no argument from me about the SE and it's inherent charm and beauty and talent. But you must be ready to breed for the sheer love of them and whatever your personal goals are, certainly not to sell them.
Debbie

Hello Behah,
I don't quite think that the only place a Straight Egyptian horse can be shown is the Egyptian Event, just two years ago Al Adeed Al Shaqab was World Champion and then following year Supreme Champion at the Egyptian Event, for an example.
As for the Scottsdale show years ago it was a different type of horse and they are great horses from those lines and not easily beaten in a show but, times are changing and more SE horses are being shown around the world.
This was a true champion the beautiful Khemosabi, who showed at Scottsdale and US National Championship.

ttachmentid=29886]

This is the beautiful Maymoon he is Straight Egyptian and he ceratinly can and is making his mark at the shows in the ME. these type of horses were prized and not shown as much for some time but, things are changing and there are more SE being shown than ever before, they are as competative as any other, owners just need to keep showing their beautiful SE horses.
tachmentid=29885]

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians

Hi Hansi,

I understand your concern for the SE horse and I admire your dedication to the breed...I am also glad to see you posting again it seems like you have been gone for too long... I realize you are not a lady that sugar coats anything and I can respect that because in many instances I am cut from the same cloth.. Believe me I have spent many a morning reading some of your posts with my ritual of a hot cup of coffee only to have it come spraying out my nose thanks to some of your more high profile posts... I have to say that in many ways I would be glad to be allied with you in your crusade to get the SE under saddle. But discussing horses in many cases is like discussing politics or religion, which a wise woman once told me only fools do...The same wise woman also taught me if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all.. Sorry NANA but I guess I am breaking the rules... I find that the lack of words in most cases gets the point across...All the negativity does is inflame the people out there that don't respect the breed and isolate you from your true goal which is to make people aware of the attributes of the breed and their original purpose...

I to believe the purpose of a horse is to be put under saddle. Right now on my farm anything that is old enough is under training or rideable with the exception of two mares and their day is coming, but we are concentrating on young stock first... But quite frankly, I seldom see a glimmer of hope from you regarding the future of the SE...I have read posts where people have tried to pin point you as to what horses you think are worth looking at and breeding to... The attributes of a long dead stallion or mare is just not good enough it is interesting YES and informative YES, but I want something that is alive today right now...I think we all would like a list of what is worth while to breed to. You have spent your life studying this give the new breeders the benefit of your knowledge you are truly one of the last oldtimers...

I didn't say that Imperial Baarez was the best horse I had ever seen..I said that he could compete against anything going to one of the larger shows...Again, here is your chance to let us know who the better ones out there are... I realize that it is an alcemy of breeding to come up with a good horse let alone a great one...No one horse can take on the responsiblity of producing a great horse and even a great horse isn't always capable of reproducing as good.... My next question is that with all the show reforms you would like to see you are telling me that you feel that the best horse ALWAYS wins and there is no bias in favor of the over promoted Stallion that has never been undersaddle or tested? Tracy

Hey Robert 1,

Thanks for your reply. I think you are missing the point. Sure Al Adeed showed
at Paris as did Bareez. Not too many of us back yard breeders have deep enough
pockets to go that distance. It's costly enough to get our horses out to class A shows and the EE. I just think it would be great if in, say Region 10, where I reside, I could take my SE horse to any class A show in my, or any other region and show it in the SE halter classes. If they were offered. If my SE was also a
perfomance horse it could show in it's respective dicipline. If the horse qualified it
could be shown at regionals in SE classes. Basically, I'm saying that the AHA does not recognize the subgroups within our breed. They only recognize purebred Arabians. But they do allow half-arabs to show at all sanctionedvenues.
Are they ignorant to the fact that there are many breeders
who only breed SE, or CMK, or Asil, Alkhamsa, etc. I think that the AHA could
accomodate a lot of preservationist breeders. We are already paying and supporting AHA, but not getting a lot of benefit, or recognition from them. I think that the AHA should sanction the EE. It's well organized, well run, They are purebred Arabians and come a lot closer to what the breed standard is than we
are seeing in Scottsdale and at the Nationals or most class A shows for that matter. We are looking for more participation, more people and horses getting out to and showing. I think AHA could do more to accomodate us.
Bebah
shows.

I am not happy with the standard of judging at our shows, particularly in halter classes. I hope the new judging system will be approved. and then we can work to make sure the horses are being judged and not the handlers.

Having said this I think it would be a mistake for the AHA to sanction sub-group classes at any of its shows. I know as a breeder of Polish horses I have no interest in showing against just Polish horses. I have the same complaints as you do about the fadish and political nature that makes it hard for any but the well connected trainers with popular bloodlines to win but work is underway to get that changed.

Preservation needs to be measured against quality. It does no good to preserve genes unless the genes that are being preserved are high quality. It is appropriate therefore that SE horses be shown against non SE horses. Only in this way can SE breeders make sure they are calibrated for quality against the best the breed has to offer.

This works fine in Europe, where SE horses are routinely competiting effectively against other bloodlines. Fix the system and the SE breeder has a good avenue to show their horses in a fair and unbiased enviornment.

Hey Dick,

All breeders, I would like to think, are trying to preserve genes that are of high quality.
Are you saying that everyone should stop breeding unless they are certain that
they have the highest possible gene pool ? Isn't that why we take them to shows ? There we, idealistically, find out how our breeding stacks up. Some
people make good breeding choices, others not so good. I would never discourage one from continuing to breed. Otherwise all we need is one great
horse. The ideal. The breed standard. Then everyone else can go home.
Lets say there was a Polish class at AHA sanctioned shows. How would your
breeding program stack up against the breed standard for Polish Arabians. Then
how would it stack up against the SEs and the "Scottsdale standard" ? Where do
you show your horses now ? Are you happy with the way things are. I think they
need to change. My horses are doing well at the EE and at class A shows. I'm not
sour grapes because I'm not placing. I would like to see the venues expanded for
those of us who do not like showing under the present system of classes and
judging. It need much more reform than just addition of classes. But it has to start
somewhere. As Hansi said, we'll have to see how the new judging system works. IIf it is instituted. I don't think any one thing is going to fix the problems
we have. But if we don't start trying to fix them we're going to fade into obscurity.
Michael Byatt presents some interesting points, regarding scoring, in an article in the Aug.. issue of the World. Take a look, if you haven't already.
Bebah
the World

Putting aside whether it is appropriate for the Breed; the truth is that Class A halter classes typically have 1 to 3 horses per class. I know, we show in Class A halter all the time. In fact we are going to the Texas State Fair Show this coming week.

Spliting it further down would further dilute a pretty meager attendence. I personally don't think it is a good idea but besides that there are major practical issues.

I see no reasons that SE can't compete fairly at Class A. I see Lyday Farm's show SE's all the time. I don't see why more people don't just "do it".

There really will be no excuse if this new judging system passes.

Hey Behah,
I'm not missing the point rather, I am not sure you are getting it.
Why set up seperate classes for SE, that would be reducing the competition, if one is breeding good Arabian Horses they should stand up to all and that is what they do and have done in the past, weather it be a world Championship, US Nationals, Regio 10, 11, 12 or 15, which Imperial Bareez won as a younger horse, I commpeted my SE against him and there were more SE in the final class than us two.
Dick you have the right idea except for the part about changing the point system, I like the system at the Egyptian Event, it makes one breed and show horses with TYPE or they won't win, and like a famous breeder from Mena says, no type, no arabian horse.
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians

I certainly am not interested in arguing the worth of one points system versus another. From my experience high quality horses of outstanding type will win in any points system. Getting the judging done right is the hard part....

Ya and NO Legs , No Horse .. Quote from the olden days when they had to really use their horses ...

I've been looking for a new mare or filly for myself for awhile. I've looked mostly at SEs and Polish horses. From what I've seen, the Polish horses have better legs and feet. I have seen many SE's that have great legs and feet but when I've seen calf knees and/or offset cannons, it's usually in a SE or a horse with close up SE blood. I think this is because type is double weighted at the EE. The same goes for movement - Polish horses move far better. I'm not saying that SEs don't move well there a lots of them that do, but as a generalization, I see better movement in Polish horses.

I very much like SEs for type and I like SE owners. You need to pay more attention to structure and movement. You need to breed horses with straight legs and good feet - no club feet. You need to breed horses that move freely in the shoulder with strong driving hocks. Having been to Aachen, I'd say that the SEs in Europe move better in than those in the US.

I mean no offense here.

Dave

Dear Liz

I disagree.

Indeed the underline should be shorter than top- pol to whithers, but havent seen one with double the size.

dont agree with shoulder steep and therefore underline/neck lower and longer.
Look at the Polish horses, (getting better now) but their necks were set low,underline longer, but still excellent shoulder angulation.

Look at the TBs, same thing, necks set low, etc.etc.

May be I misunderstood your discription. Sometimes it is better to show a drawing and then an explanation to follow.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

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Dear Bebah

No disrespect but I totally disagree. Already we created fata morganas through the lack of foresight by the PS, and now you want the Asils be given a preferance class? If the desire to win is that great, than one simply has to examine the competition- I always do- and try to become equal or better. Or, start breeding goldfish, at least you can flush them down the toilet.

All are registered Arabians and have competed as such with each other from day one. The handful of SEs 40 years ago against thousands of domestics made a great impact for the SEs/and Asils, and CAN DO IT AGAIN.

How can anybody find out what they really have, if not tested or
in competition with the best of other bloodlines?

But the problem lies with some of our large/wealthy breeders, who might not know a good horse, when they see one, and if they do ,have one should go out and show the world what these horses can do- in performance- =stress performance. That's what the ancestors of their SEs had to do to be allowed to breed on. While other bloodlines continued in that fashion and are winning in whatever diszipline, some of the the large SE breeders ( I now call some Puppy mills" ) still DONT GET IT!!!!!

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Aabian Farms

Dear Dave,

You must not been to some of my favorite farms or you would see horses with movement, type, and good legs. I feel bad that you perceive SE horses in general as having bad legs. I don't think mine have bad legs and overall feel they have very good conformation.

Here is one of my foundations mares - a Straight Egyptian - who has been a Regional Top 5 Mare in both Halter, and Hunter and who has also scored very well in dressage. I don't see many issues with her conformation. The third photo is her last foal - and I think he represents her well.

Carol

Dave,

Also - here a photo of my mare's almost 1/2 sibling (her name is Remarqable KA) - who is also a 3/4 sibling to her son (the colt pictured above). This is a photo following winning her class at the Egyptian Event Europe in 2004 - so I feel confident my SEs would do well both in Europe and in the US.

No offense is meant of course - but I get so tired of hearing about this stuff about the horses in the US not being as good as or as good movers as those in Europe. Heck - Remarqable KA (the mare pictured below) was bred right here in Fort Worth, Texas scored perfect 20s in movement in Europe! What more can you ask for? I think you just need to visit more SE farms here and you will see many wonderful horses who can compete all over the world.

The Europeans seem to be more in tune with reality - and as such we have seen so many horses exported to France, England, Germany, etc...

We are seeing some great horses leave this country to go overseas and yet there are still folks here complaining about the quality. We are losing or have lost horses like PVA Kariim, Ali Barba, Ansata Hejazi and so many other Ansata horses. Diana Cantey sold her great Imperial Baarez son to Australia. Several Imtariif son's have also gone to Austrialia - partly due to their GREAT MOVEMENT! I think that Marion Richmond actually bought one.

The problem really isn't that we don't have great SE horses here in the US! Its that people apparently don't know how to find the great horses in their own back yard!

Perhaps instead of always having the "Grass is Always Greener" syndrome - people ought to try to see the great horses right there in front of them. It really a shame that someone across the ocean has to be the person to fine the great horses here in the US - only for them to go overseas and have people say - well the horses here in the US just are not as competitive as those in Europe. I find it really kind of funny - in a sad kind of way.



Carol

Ok Hansi. Here is what I mean. This is a photo of a well conformed horse with a great front. Now if you take the top line from the poll to the highest point of the wither, you will find by measuring it that it is double the length of the underline from the throat attachment to the chest attachment. I think that you will see the same thing in the photo Carol posted of Prima Bella.

Dave,

it is not at all true that Egyptians have worse legs than other lines, specifically when you see the current crop of winning Halter horses.
We specifically select horses with great legs and have been rewarded with foals who have continued the lines with great legs and wonderful movement. Not necessarily Park but with a wonderfully free shoulder and drive from behind. The front is so light they almost seem to not touch the ground yet they can extend with piston like cadence when necessary. I am very disturbed by the repetitious rumors which when repeated often enough seem to become so ingrained in people that they become accepted truths. You can find bad legs in any line. As a matter of fact in Nationally advertised stallions and Natrional champion mares.
As a point in fact the current halter system is not a breeding class at all but at best, a prejudiced showmanship class where cronyism is so rampant as to be so obvious I cannot understand why it is not addressed.

We do not have a single SE here that has questionable legs. Only one horse has problem feet and he is a gelding with non SE blood.

Dang it, when will I ever learn, the above post is mine and the gelding has no lines to SE whatsoever but has 4 crosses to the stallion Comet who figures strongly in some Polish pedigrees. I do not believe that to be the Norm. I mention him just to give you an example that it is possible in any horse and in any line regardless of country of origin.

Regards,
Eyegor

Carol and Guest,

I stand by what I wrote. This is based on my experience. I've looked at lots of SEs and I've seen many with great legs and feet. However, too frequently I've seen offset cannons, calf knees, and club feet. I've seen good movement but too frequently, I've seen SEs that don't move freely in the shoulders which does not make for a good riding horse. I've seen less of these issues in Polish and Russian horses.

All I'm saying is that more attention needs to be paid to correct structure. Type should not be at the expense of correctness. Please understand that I like SEs and will probably own one some day. If I do, it will have correct structure and good movement.

Dave

Here is my observation as I evaluate over 100 horses per year of all bloodlines, but mostly SE as well as attending Scottsdale, Nationals, the EE and many class A shows. I see club feet, long cannons and calf knees in all bloodlines, but most often in non straights, which go back to certain popular bloodlines. I see more off set cannons in SEs to a greater or lesser degree. I see steep pasterns and tied in below the knees in all bloodlines too.

Recently, judging in Australia and the UK, I saw great legs and feet on the whole. In Australia I saw one set of very slightly offset cannons, no club feet. The main slight fault was tied in below the knees. It was the same in the UK, and in both countries it was fabulous to see horses with good broad feet and mostly unshod too.

Dave,

You are welcome to stand by what you wrote of course. I personally think it would be better to try to be more open minded and then go out and see more SE farms and see what it is that you might be out there that you could have missed. My feeling is that you have not really looked that hard if this is the opinion you are coming away with.

I have ALL bloodlines at my farm (Polish, Crabbet and even a National Showhorse) and all have good legs. My SEs have some of the best legs. I hope that eventually you get out and see more nice SEs with good legs. They really are a treasure and - finding a good quality SE is something that to me really is pretty special.

Good luck in your horse endeavors.

Carol

Bellagio RCA won 3rd at Scottsdale out of 20 in his class as a 2 year old... he is of course SE for those who may not know. We currently have a Thee Gambler daughter in foal to him because we 'hope to win' in class A and Regional's with the foal. I want the SE's to compete "straight up'....PUN intended.....
we show our SE's in Region 9 class A's and have won pretty well with them.... and showed 2 SE stallion's at Region 9 in 05 and won 2 top fives.
I certainly don't now (or ever will) have the ability and eye to go over a horse like Hansi or Liz S., but i can tell you i am 6'4" 260 pounds and ride a 15 hand stallion (Richter son out of Minstril daughter) 15 plus miles in Texas summer through woods and hills and he comes back still full of himself and wanting more and that is a pretty good measure to this ol' farm boy. I have other arabians (non SE) to chose from to ride, but i just like Seismic. By the way he won second in liberty at The Event in '03 out of over 20 entries and has a first and top ten at The Event in halter.
SE's can compete and do well....
Jerel

Last year, I visited two farms one SE farm and the other pure Polish. The difference between the sale horses was day and night in terms of legs. The Polish horses were far superior. On another trip, I looked at one SE and various other bloodlines - Psyche, Egyptian related, Russian crosses, but no pure Polish. On that trip, the SE had the best legs. I've seem club feet more frequently in SE and Psyche lines.

I think that there are very few horses that have very correct legs and feet. I've been fortunate to own three of them. The reason this is so important is soundness. I want a horse that will remain sound for the long term.

Dave

You visited TWO SE farms total ? I would DEFINITELY go to more farms before forming an opinion.

Carol

Thanks Liz, you see I mistranslated. That's what I mean, as seen in the photo. But this mare looks badly mutton whithered, standing behind, or is it the photo, which can be so deceiving?

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Carol,

I'll be specific. I've been to five SE farms. I've also looked at SEs in two sale barns and looked at several SE stallions at farms not exclusively devoted to SEs. I've actually been to more SE farms than pure Polish. Is that a big enough sample size?

I don't know why you think I'm picking on SEs. If you read my earlier posts, I said that I've seem SEs with very good legs. Furthermore, I've seen some of the old SEs - Ansata Ibn Sudan, *Ramses Fayek, *Talal, Ansata El Sherif, ET Crown Prince, and others I can't remember now. I very much liked all of these I've mentioned with the exception of *Talal. He had a foul disposition. My opinions are not uninformed and what I said was ment to be constructive.

Dave

Dave,

If I'd stopped looking after 5 farms - I wouldn't have ever purchased an SE... So for me no - five farms was not a good enough sampling.

I don't feel like you are picking on SEs - I feel that what you are saying is that US breeders focus more on pretty heads than movement or leg conformation. I would think if you would go to different farms, you'd have a different impression - as I did.

Anyway - I'm going to give it a rest... its a free world and everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion and preferences.

So - good luck with all that you enjoy - polish, SE, Russian or whatever....

Carol

Carol,

I'm hoping to go to some SE farms in the near future. I hope I see some really good legs and feet. I'll let you know.

Dave

Dave,

I look forward to hearing about your visits. Have a great time.

I love visiting farms and seeing new horses... Gosh - saw the most beautiful filly the other day - it was yesterday in fact... She was a gorgeous chestnut Fame VF grand daughter.

Also - talk about gorgeous - I saw an AWESOME Ansata Nile Pharoah daughter - just born.... She was gorgeous... I was thrilled to see that Pharoah is siring so well!!!

Hope to meet you at a farm - somewhere in the future!

Carol

In the winners’ circle – maybe not yet, though let’s hope that the system can sort itself out and soon. What is done in the States is usually mimicked elsewhere in the world for the same / similar impact!
There really is no need for people to be breeding for something that they feel is artificial. If a myth needs to perpetuated, let it been seen for that reasoning. The showring does not have to dominate the breeding of an animal. Rather it appears to be the choice of people to feel part of something which has its main focus within the show phenomenon. This is being compounded by magazines, books, websites etc all of which is expounding on the myth rather than reality of the horse itself ie the horse of the desert as bred by the nomadic Bedouin. The advent of the endurance industry isn’t doing any favours either; it’s a by-product for the show system ~ the creation of a race horse for moderated distances.

Back to the concept of classifications eg sE and Crabbet having separate classes haven’t worked in the manner being suggested by Bebah in Queensland, Australia. sE and Crabbet shows within an A class show haven’t drawn additional numbers to these individual group classifications where I am located. Most of who elect to compete in a specialist grouping also compete in the A graded show which they are attached to along with the amateur owner grouping. This has the potential for an Crabbet related, Egyptian related individual to scope the pool so to speak – it hasn’t happen as yet though. It could be suggested it’s because the same system is working ergo same judges are judging. The system is sick, not the horse. Imo, it appears more needs to be understood about the variances of conformation to allow all types to enter the ring for judging equally per their foundations. Particularly when a judge states that they “didn’t want to look at alternative types because it may spoil their eye” for the myth

Re the neck proportions… how about if the neck was viewed as a working bio-mechanical attribute… all it really needs to be capable of is reaching the ground to allow the horse to drink and eat - naturally. Head and neck combined length should allow the individual to reach the ground to eat and drink without stressing the overall body (having the horse do a balancing act to reach the ground or too much neck could present muscle soreness and possibly other complications over time, along with implications for a performance horse). The actual head length should also be considered in this combination as compared to the depth of chest (the point where the spine (backbone becomes the neck) comes out of the body) to the total length of the front legs – hooves included (thinks consequences of farriering for long hooves plus the depth of artificial shoes (including pads) and their potential to impact on the functionality of the natural neck therefore body overall ).
How many judges check if an exhibit can reach the ground adequately with their necks?
Judges appear to be busy reviewing just as much as exhibitors are responding to show how far a neck can be stretched and its general shape in what amounts to an imitation of a naturally occurring excitable response though more importantly does the neck actually and adequately reach the ground?
As mentioned by Hansi, the neck can also factor as a balance for the body build (including hindquarter). A slim neck on a deep bodied horse (or vice versa) may not present an overall pleasant balanced look and may end up looking like an ill-matched combination of preferred parts. Perhaps it’s this ‘taking apart’ of body parts that is loosing the overall concept of do the attributes work well together for a bio-mechanical functionality. “Points for parts” and multiplying favourable points isn’t an ideal concept for judging. Could it be suggested that it’s loosing the horse for the sake of points to garner wins ~ perpetuating a myth.

Hi Diane, Thanks, so much for your input. The information you presented regarding
Queensland is helpful. I guess what I was ultimately searching for was a means of having judges judge each sub group of Arabian by that group's, interpreted, breed standard. There is something inherently wrong with that concept I realize. But you are absolutely correct, in that the ills lie in the system not the horses. It seems we are in an accelerating death spiral here and there is so much complacancy. I don't think it will get better on its own. I think the system needs to be fixed. And if I have done nothing more that aggravate a few people to the point of thinking about what can be done or sewn a seed of contempt for the wrongs
of this system we are now using. Then, perhaps, the topic has served its purpose . I would like to have had more constructive ideas for how to change or
fix the system, but there, as always, was much digression from the topic. Thank
you again for your thoughful assesment.

Bebah