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Zachary
I am a frequent visitor to this site but I am one of those who prefer reading instead of posting. But now I have a question for the experienced of you who are used to the American lines.
At the EEE I had a conversation with an American who explained to me that Imperial Imdal isn't that much in demand in the USA because of the fact he put the so-called "human eye" to many of his offspring. Eyes with a white ring. I was astonished and looked closely over the two Imdal get who were on display at the EEE and yes, Mosalli has that white ring but Loubna has not. That left me with much speculation on that subject. Let me say that I am a huge admirer of Imdal. I certainly don't ask this question to harm him.
KPWebb
Imdal is a wonderful older guy, but yes, he does pass on human eyes. It tends to show up more in his grandget. Julia Heidbrink has a very nice grandson of his who does not have it but I know of someone else who has a son and daughter of his who both do. It seems to bother some people and others not at all. He is at Chapel Farms not far from me and I will say you could walk the pastures there at one point and pretty much pick out the Imdal get and grandget because of the human eyes.

As to why he is not in as much demand now is probably more because of the fact that as an aged stallion, his semen no longer ships well and so he can only be bred on the premises. His get still seem to command very good prices and quite a few are very nice individuals. I have noticed that you need a mare with a good croup and hindquarter when breeding to him as that to me is one of his weak points. The other would be his shorter, a bit on the cresty side, neck. But it is set on beautifully. His face is not as dishy as I think is currently in vogue, but it is still beautiful. To me, Imdal's best feature, and that of his son's, Tareef, and his grandson, Ibn El Tareef, are his HUGE, beautiful poppy eyes.
Guest
The human eye is considered as a breeding fault in today's US show ring.
ema
Hi!
I have an Imdal grandson, Ibn El Tareef, and an Imdal daughter, Imajaz, and another grandson, Ibn Suras. Ibn Suras has a little of a human eye, not much in one eye. The other two don't have it at all but do have those huge eyes and wonderful personality.

When at the Event, I was able to see several Imdal get. None of them had white ringed eyes. The stallions I saw up close were Musalih and Hawkeye CC. I wish I could have seen more, and there probably were some more grandkids there smile.gif There was a gorgeous colt that Barbara Vallee owned, shown by Chris Anckersen, a yearling, that did not have it either.

Imdal has 305 get (including all the first generation only, mares, geldings and stallions) and 224 of them are in other countries than the USA. He is getting old, and I am sorry to see that... but it happens to the best of us. I don't think that 224 Imdal get overseas is a small number of horses though smile.gif

Julia
Kromar Arabian Stud
We have an Imperial Imdal descendent, Kromar El Kaddal (Ibn El Imdal x Kismet Kadira by Hamasa Ibn Kaisoon) and obviously I know his sire who is by Hadaya El Tareef out of Taja Moniet and they have no ‘human eye’ eneywhere in sight. biggrin.gif
Greetings
Mariks
Kromar Arabian Stud
Sorry, forgot to say, this is in South Africa ohmy.gif
Mariks
ema
Hi Mariks!

Do you have pictures of Ibn El Imdal? I am very interested in seeing him as I have a full brother, and now am the proud owner of Taja Moniet! She had a gorgeous yearling colt that showed at the USA Egyptian Event this year, VA Regal (Imperial Imdal x Taja Moniet).

Julia
Wahaja
Hi Zachary! I too have an Imdal grandson, Nabil EL Sheruk. He does have the eyes so commonly referred to as Imdal Eyes. I think it is a shame that in America this is considered a fault. How can this be a fault. Affectionately known as Leg's my stallion is magnificent to me. He is 15.3, very athletic and has lots of personality. Not many purebred owners would breed to him because of the eyes. What message are we sending to the future breeders of Straight Egyptians, OH, don't breed to that horse, look at his eyes! Never mind how well he moves and what great confirmation he has! As a small breeder I have taken it upon myself to breed Legs to a percheron mare and the resulting filly is phenominal. I will always breed to save and ensure a bloodline but many of the foals will probably stay in my pasture since no one would be interested. I leave you with a photo of Virginias Isabella, above mentioned filly and Legs with his SE son Tammesas Flying Jack. Hope you like them.
Christina
Wahaja
Oops! Sorry about the double post! Here is Legs with Jack
Guest
Is there a Bedouin belief, story, tradition, etc., regarding the human eye? The American breeding standards imply dark, large eyes. Does this mean absolutely no whites around the eye? How prevalent is this? Aside from the app, how prevalent is this in all equine breeds?
Guest
Imdal also produces a lot of white on his foals. I have also seen this trait pass along through some of his sons. Unfortunately it can cover the face and go above the knees with pink skin. I know that his sire Ansata Imperial is not known to add this white. Does anyone know if this trait is characteristic of the Romanaa line?
Guest
I don't think I've noticed Imdal putting that much white on his offspring and I have seen a bunch of them. Human eyes are in all lines of Arabians. You see it more on grey and chestnut horses. The American standard is for big dark eyes. I think it has more to do with symmetry as big dark solid eyes are less distracting and more appealing than the human eyes to some, but I wouldn't let the halter ring dictate what I liked or didn't like as there is so much more to horses than just a pretty face.
Guest2
We bred an very desirable colt to our eyes this year. A noteworthy U.S. trainer was very taken by him also. The colt had NO pigment in one eye and the trainer sujested that we could not show him (in due course) as he would not be rewarded in the U.S. show ring because this is considered such a bad fault. It was heart breaking news to learn. Are judges more accepting of the white eye in Europe?
Ralph
Dear Wahaja:

I read your post and am interested in the Percheron cross you bred. A few weeks ago, I read an article in DRESSAGE TODAY about the Percheron. Considered a draft horse by today's standards, there was a time when the Percheron was highly infused with Arabian blood and was much lighter in type. Agile, athletic, with lots of thrust and impulsion from the hind legs, Percherons not only carried knights into battle but were also used for sport. This medieval breed of horse has much potential in today's very competitive and demanding sporthorse world. There is a new registry forming called the Desert Norman Horse Registry to encourage the breeding of the lighter Percheron type to produce Olympic quality horses that excel in all the sporthorse disciplines. The percentage of the blood must be at least 25 percent Arabian/75 percent Percheron OR 25 percent Percheron/75 per cent Arabian. The registry recommends that Perceheron mares be covered by Arabian Stallions, like you did with your mare, to breed taller horses.

Congratulations on your "far-ahead thinking" in breeding this awesome filly. I love her hindquarters! Awesome!

Ralph
Wahaja
Dear Ralph,
Thank you so much for your kind words regarding Isabella. She is 1 month old in the picture and to be honest I did not expect her to be so big! Her Dam is a little short for a percheron 16.2 hands by today's standards, most percheron breeders seem to like the 17 or 18 hand horses. I like the older foundation type horses. Isabella's dam is quite beautiful as well she has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen on a perch. Often draft horses tend to have a sunken eye but not this girl. Isabella is 3 months old now and I need to get some more photos so everyone can see her progress. Hansi said she would like to see her grow too! If you could have seen the grin on my face reading your post, I felt like a child with joy! Thank you so much for making my day! Attached is a picture of Ramona Isabella's dam.

Christina
hananfan
Hello, I also have a Imdal grandson. : D

Both his sire and dam are out of Imdal. My horse does not have the "human eye", but he does have more white on him. His dam also seems to produce quite a bit of white on her offspring, regardless of whom she is bred to. I also looked around at the horses at the event, and I noticed alot of white in the eyes of the Ansata horses. I know they all don't have it, but they seemed to have the most.
KayDee
Ok, let me get this straight smile.gif

It is ok to show a horse in the US that looks like a giraffe (extra loooong necks, poor legs and weak movement) but not ok to show a lovely, well conformed, in proportion horse that moves well but just happens to show white around its eyes?

Hmmm, very interesting. tongue.gif
Guest
Actually, you can show whatever you like if you pay the fees. It's just a matter of how it fits the standards, and which has fewer faults that determine who will succeed. There are horses with white in the eye and on the body that do well, but it is an undesirable feature. Given two of equal quality, the one without the white will be the winner.
Guest_intrepid
Kaydee said:
It is ok to show a horse in the US that looks like a giraffe (extra loooong necks, poor legs and weak movement) but not ok to show a lovely, well conformed, in proportion horse that moves well but just happens to show white around its eyes?

my answer:
Tell me, what do you like? white in his eyes, short neck with a long body and short legs??? and wher do you got the idea from that horses in the US have a weak movement and poor legs??? did you ever been there?? laugh.gif
Guest
The English Pleasure trot determines the halter winner in the US show ring.
Naughty Pine
Hi!

I have to say I love this horse he is definately one of the favourites in my stallions pedigree. Yes sometimes the white around the eye is passed down, but I would not consider them to be a human eye. Some have more white around the eyes than others and his line is not the only one to carry this as I have seen it in many other lines. It may be a fault but so are slopping croups, crooked legs, poor movement, bad temperament, poor neck set, straight shoulders, lack of depth of girth, narrow bodies, extremely short backs........and so on and so fourth. There is no such thing as the perfect Arabian. What is most important is as breeders we are aware of what faults are in our lines and in the lines we are breeding into. This way we can try our best to improve the breed and produce horses as close the standard as possible. This is the true goal of a breeder, not just to be the best winning show horse as there have been many a show horse that won due to politics and $$$$ that would of otherwise been nothing.

Imdal is one of those great horses that will always be in my mind an outstanding representative of the breed.

Patti
leo keller
I have seen many Imperial Imdal Grandsons aund Granddaughters in France in the last 5 years but no "human white eyes" came to my eyes. His son Ghazal Imdal (Imperial Imdal x AK Ghazala (Ibn Moniet el Nefous x Bint Bint Moniet el Nefous) - standing now at Grenoble (FR) has great black eyes and my young Stallion and Grandson "Shadow" Kabir Ibn Leila - (a grandson of Imperial al Kamar and Imperial Imdal) - as well.

Leo Keller
Leila Arabians
KayDee
biggrin.gif Ahh, Intrepid! Good call, and I will explain myself as I probably have offended those excellent US breeders that have done the breed wonders. And I find Imdal a quality, superbly bred individual and if he throws the occassional foal with white sclera, I could not care less because his babies are magnificent.

No, I have not been to the US. And yes, the US has some very lovely horses BUT I do not like the current "trend" of what I am seeing over there with arabians that resemble saddlebred horses. Like I said, some are lovely individuals and I would love to take some home with me, however the extra long necks, long bodies, and poor legs I have seen in some photos really put me off. In saying that though, my country has a bad habit of following trends from the US and I am seeing a lot here that are starting to also resemble saddlebreds and it is a trend we really do not need. Stick with the standard - if you choose to breed saddlebreds then fine, breed them. But don't turn an arabian into one.

No, I don't particularly like short necks, long bodies etc but I certainly could handle a nicely put together horse if it had white sclera. I would choose white sclera over bad legs or extra long necks anyday. Oh and I think I would also prefer a shorter neck than one that was waaaay too long only because I like to ride my horses and feel a shorter neck would be much better than one that was a mile away from my hands!

Like I said, the US has some lovely horses but they really need to get away from the saddlebred look imho. Oh and I am merely a humble beginner when it comes to arabians so am only saying what I see.

But in saying that, I see a quality horse in Imperial Imdal and could not care less if he sometimes throws foals with white sclera at all. In fact it does not worry me in the least. He is a beauty and so are his offspring. Lovely, lovely horse. tongue.gif
Nasiri
Hi Folks

After reading this forum topic and the direction it went in I thought, what is/was the standard?

I looked at Lithographs and pictures from the mid 19 th century and saw that " human eyes" were quite common in those days. When counted as seen in the Asil Araber books I saw that circa 45% of all the pictures show a degree of white schlera. Maybe that appealed to the artists?? <_<

Personaly I don't mind it. I certainly don't see it as a fault.

Kindest regards
P.L.
Paul Atkinson
At the risk of causing offense, if the human eye had been eliminated, several of the best known and most renowned SE stallions of the past, particularly in Germany, would not feature in today's pedigrees and their absence would have deprived the world of spectacular SE's of today.
Paul
Kromar Arabian Stud
QUOTE (ema @ Aug 7 2003, 11:00 PM)
Hi Mariks!
Do you have pictures of Ibn El Imdal?  I am very interested in seeing him as I have a full brother, and now am the proud owner of Taja Moniet! 
Julia

Hi Julia
Do you have any pics of your horses? biggrin.gif
Here is some pics of him and his first foals in RSA.
Photo by a friend of mine.
Kromar Arabian Stud
Another one of Ibn El Imdal (Hadaya El Tareef x Taja Moniet)
biggrin.gif
Kromar Arabian Stud
And another one tongue.gif
ema
Hi!!

Just as I thought... he is a beautiful stallion!! I have a full brother in my Ibn El Tareef, who is 2 years older, and also a wonderful example of this cross!! Imperial Imdal is quite the prepotent stallion, putting himself into his sons and daughters both... don't you agree?

Pictures.... oh my yes!! Let me put a few here for you to see and enjoy!










And finally one of our stallions' mother. She was in her prime in this picture, but she is a lovely lady still and just had a beautiful, big Imperial Imdal colt last year for Barbara Vallee!



Thank you so very much for sharing your stallion with me!!

Julia
Kromar Arabian Stud
His first son, Arabello Paul Cezanne out of Galena Amira Nassek (who is a triple Darius and a double Hamasa Farid).
Photo by me
Kromar Arabian Stud
His first mare Arabello Fa'iza (Ibn El Imdal x Vidiko Nanika by Darius).
Pic by me
Kromar Arabian Stud
And his first SE foal, Arabello Rubens (Ibn El Imdal x Khalehla)
The imported mare Khalehla is by Makhsous (Sultann x Nabdah), out of Waseela (Wahag x Gohara). His dam and his sister is in the backgound of the pic.
Photo by me
ema
Here are a couple of Pete's babies!

Grey colt, Egyptian Related




Another Grey colt!


Julia
Kromar Arabian Stud
And last but not least, our foal Kromar El Kaddal (Ibn El Imdal x Minhab Kadira) biggrin.gif
Greetings from RSA
Mariks
mff_s@hotmail.com
Kromar Arabian Stud
Thanx Julia biggrin.gif
Do you have any pics of Pete? And what is the name of the mare in the pic? Do you have pics of Taja Moniet?
Lovely foals tongue.gif
Mariks
ema
Hi Mariks smile.gif

I think our choice of stallions was a good one!! Your babies and Pete's babies are very nice, and I can hardly wait to watch them grow!

Back on the 2nd page of this topic is a post from me with 4 pictures on it. 3 of the pictures are Pete (the grey) and the chestnut is Taja Moniet!

Send me an email to julia@elmasri.net and I will send you more pictures!!

The mare in the picture with the foal is CLM Damala. Here is her pedigree http://www.aiusa.com/anneodel/pedigree.htm

Julia
Kromar Arabian Stud
Hahahahaha Julia
Haven't seen them, was to busy posting biggrin.gif
Thanx for the advise, will send you an e-mail. Ibn El Imdal's owner, Welma Joubert, are also interested in your pics and want to come in contact with you. smile.gif
Greetings with a smile
Mariks
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