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HLM
Dear Tracy

that all depends. If ONLY ONE PERSON is enticed to buy their first arabian horse it all ads up. We need newcommers, people who treasure the Arabian horse, use it and enjoy it under their seat. they should not be frightened away by idiotic displays.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Basilisk
QUOTE (Gaby @ Oct 2 2006, 01:57 PM)
Yes, the shows in GB are different but in other countries in Europe they do it and when the stallions are not too close it's nothiung to worry about. They look great. You can have a rule against everything. That doesn't mean such a rule is good though.  smile.gif
*


I wonder, you do own or handle stallions? Have you ever been present at a show when - due to irresponsible handling - a stallion has got loose and threatened to fight the other horses present? I can answer 'yes' to all three, and so I firmly support the British rule that prevents 'cockfighting'!

And - although the term is not specifically used - it could be interpreted to fall foul of ECAHO Rules 19 and 33 - both of which are devised for the safety and welfare of horses AND humans.

Rules that promote safety are NEVER bad.

Keren
Basilisk
The system is certainly very successful in the UK - successful at convincing owners of other breeds that Arabs are dangerous to handle and own, and that people who show Arabs know nothing about horsemanship!

In the UK, right now, mongrel pinto cobs straight off the Irish bogs are fetching thousands of pounds, but you can't get back the stud costs for a top-class Arab foal (even SEs). Why? Because the mongrels are seen as "sensible and safe", but the well-bred Arab is "mad, bad and dangerous to know"! And when Arab owners are seen at all-breed shows, screaming like little children at a circus - often at horses which real horseman can see have bad conformation and faulty movement - can you wonder that the breed has such a bad reputation?

In my experience, those who truly think this kind of behavoiur inside and outside of the ring are very much a minority. Unfortunatley, they are a highly visible minority. And sadly, they hit the rest of us where it hurts - in the pocket - because thanks to them, we are not able to sell our sane, sensible, typey, correct, rideable Arabs!

Keren
Marilee
We must not give up however!!! Just this week at school I am reading to all the kindergarteners Little Black and Little Black Goes to the Circus, and showing The Black Stallion (my favorite part is boy and horse in the water walking and swimming and the boy riding in the water and on the beach). Very inspirational!!! I have been reading everyone's posts. This needs to be shared with The Pyramid Society board and AHA board and officers, so they can see the division within the Arabian breed of marketing and promotion and education versus some of the practices which we deplore but still continue. Tracy and Hansi and everyone, we can speak up and must be heard. Change will come from us caring enough about our breed to ask for changes!!!! Marilee in Las Vegas (I will be sharing your ideas with the Breeders Alliance group for the April World Cup here). Education needs to be done carefully to the public.
Sybille
QUOTE (Basilisk @ Oct 2 2006, 06:40 PM)
I wonder, you do own or handle stallions? Have you ever been present at a show when - due to irresponsible handling - a stallion has got loose and threatened to fight the other horses present? I can answer 'yes' to all three, and so I firmly support the British rule that prevents 'cockfighting'!

And - although the term is not specifically used - it could be interpreted to fall foul of ECAHO Rules 19  and 33 - both of which are devised for the safety and welfare of horses AND humans.

Rules that promote safety are NEVER bad.

Keren
*


Yes, I do. All I said was that it should be not overweight that stallions are shown in a flamboyant manner. Obviously most people see it like me because the trainers at Aachen (A show) did it that way and the crowd responded very well and no DC and no judge had something against it.
You will never prevent even with thousands of rules that a horse turn loose or that a halter breaks or something bad happens. What this has to do with showing our stallions in a lively, flashy way?

In the" MAYSOUN presentation" at Aachen three breeding stallions were presented. Among them Orashaan and Maydan-Madheen. The handlers stood them nose to nose and both looked fantastic. A site to behald: Two wonderful stallions, face to face, both full of energy and pride. Dangerous? For the unexperienced handler of course. But not for those who know the stallions. And of course nothing happened.
Did you never presented your stallions nose to nose for visitors or to photograph them? Did you never do that? Really? Ask other owenrs. They will glady show this for you.

Arabians stallions are well-known for their good nature and behavior. I was so often with warmblood people at Arabian horse shows and they always respondend extremely well to the presentation of our stallions. They liked it and were amazed how well behavebd "our" Arabian stallions are and how easy they are to handle even when they teased each other. They loved it and were full of respect for the stallions shown. "We could never do this with a warmblood stallion", they always said. "Arabians are really special, so people oriented!" This is the effect this kind of showing have on people outside the Arabian horse scene! They are not driven away, they loved the good behavior of the stallions, the flamboyant yet controllable energy they show off. biggrin.gif
Marilee
PS---I have had the privilege of "being owned by" 1, then 2, then 3 Egyptian stallions over the years. We NEVER put them nose to nose at any time for any reason. Safety and respect for them and for us. People reading this will think it is OK to take careless and flambouyant risks. I disagree!!!
HLM
O boy, havent learned?

A child does not know that a car can kill it. A child also does not know what can happen with two studs facing each other nose to nose. And before you know it, they copy it, because those "FAMOUS" trainers have done it.

It is the responsibility of all trainers to be a good teacher, an example
in ethics and conduct and not trying to outdo others with dangerous and infantile behavior.

If I were the judge I would excuse such "trainers" for an entire year, asking them to learn about "horsemenship""and when they have learned, come back and behave in a proper manner.

Often some of these "trainers" have never been on a horse, dont know what it takes to train one under saddle, never started a young horse under saddle and never made a horse "childsafe" including stallions. the showring obedience is often whipped in. they also dont realize what it takes to regain trust of some of the especially young horses.

I recommend that any dangerous behavior by anybody in the ring or in the holding area be harshly penalyzed. It is may be time that we licence trainers, and revoke such licenes when abuse took place. Some have gotten away with too much for too long.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Cheryl L
Our trainers, basketball players, football players and so on are NOT role models, nor should they be. They are fallible human beings like the rest of us. The role models SHOULD be the parents. The PARENTS should tell the children right and wrong. I have never seen a youth stand stallions nose to nose. This is a practice for experienced handlers. People learn both good and bad behavior. When I learned to train a halter horse, I watched for many years and put together my own ideas and techniques. These were gathered from watching the best. I did not incorporate all of the ideas, some were not my "cup of tea". I picked and chose, what I wanted to use. There are some things that I do that I do not want a youngster to do. I make myself clear on those points. Just like anything, children need adult supervision.
Yes, I too have owned and showed a "hot" stallion. I gave others space in the ring, as they did me. Now as a gelding, he still has some stallion like characteristics. I tell the younger, less experienced handlers not to crowd me and to give us some space, in the show ring. Now at ringside or in the make up arena, they can and will stand next to me with their horses and Shamal would behave himself, EVEN as a stallion. In the ring he was beautiful, full of himself and all snorty, sometimes a real pain in the behind. I had one Mom come up to me and commend me on the manners of my stallion. Her daughter had come up with her mare in heat and was asking me for some pointers. Shamal never twitched an ear. Then again in the show ring was another story. I do not want people to emulate me, that is just to much pressure. I do the best that I can to educate and promote the Arabian at all breed shows, but, I am NOT a role model.
Cheryl
HLM
O yeah, parents educate? How much do the parents know?
Tell a child to touch a hot stove will hurt. they say "yes I wont" next moment you hear a scream. They tried it. Now they learned "wisdom". This goes for just about everything. And which children nowadays listen to the parents anyway?
Someday something bad will happen and all those who condone this nonsense will
carry the burden.

In any case it is wrong to show off studs nose on nose, and no decent horseman/woman in my book will do it. they know better.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Nadj al Nur
To get back to the original topic.........
I think probably SOME newcomers are turned off by todays showing methods, but it seems to me that more and more people who HAVE shown in the past, are opting not to show simply because they refuse to do to their horses, the things that will get them the ribbons.
They don't want to put their horses with the big trainers, some because they can't afford it, but most, because they love their horses too much to see them treated harshly.They would rather just keep them at home, ride them and enjoy them that way.
Some, like me, think that the hard stand-up serves absolutely no useful purpose,
WP is a travesty.....who in their right mind would want to ride a "pleasure" horse outside of a showring, if it moved like that?
I remember once somebody said, "jogging all day in the shade of the same tree."
I want my horses to move NATURALLY, and that rarely happens in the showring.
There used to be a thriving show community in our area. Now, the closest Class A show is a ten hour drive. NOBODY goes.It simply is not worth it. And if the old timers don't show, then who is going to get the new people interested?

Best
Cathy
Georgia
Ditto and A----men, Cathy.

I just finished reading the AI thread..wow..., and is another reason why I'd think people would be turned off.

Enjoyed reading this thread, I think! ohmy.gif ph34r.gif
HLM
Dear Cathy and all

Remember now, those big trainers "have to show at big shows" they need the championships to go to the Regionals or Nationals.

So IT IS ALL OF US, who are in the driver's seat, by demanding that the rules are followed. We all are the trainers "Bosses" and if they dont like it, tell them to go fly a kite.

By enforcing these rules, and demanding dignified and ethical behavior they have no choice, or out they go out of the gate. But they cant afford this.

You all need to realize your "rights"- remember you pay the bills-
Make a great big sign- write on it What THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO-
make another sign each end of the arena entrance for the public stating they are not allowed to coach the entries, nor touch the ring wall, nor do anything which hurts the horses. Have the show committee assist you in demanding what you want. You are the customer, they are the supplier.

If someone breaks these rules, issue complains and out the entries go-

You need to all get together and help doing something about what is not liked.
Alone, no-one can do it, it takes all of us. Once all is corrected it will be a pleasure for many to go back to shows and enduce others to join.

Think about it and form groups, many of them, everywhere! And start fighting for the right thing in the name of all our beloved Arabians horses.
surely, you all have the gutts, right!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
In reply to Sybille:

No, I never stand my stallions nose to nose to 'gee them up' for photos. I don't need to - I can get photos I wnat of them looking flambouyant in much safer ways.

And I would certainly NEVER 'cockfight' my horse against another at a show. Even if you foirget the chance of serious physical insury which is always present, there is also a mental element: a dominant stallion will force another horse to back down and show less well. So this is again a form of cheating.

Furthermore, there is the legal aspect. If your horse is injured when you have given your consent for it to be shown in such a manner, your insurer will probably not cover your vet fees. If your horse injures another, however, you will have to pay THEIR fees. If a handler is injured, you will be liable for any claim they make on you - and that could run into millions. If you are seriously injured as a result of your own stupid action, then you will probably not receive any compensation.

Bringing this back to the original question, it is NOT how horses behave when they are out of the public eye that first influences the potential buyer. It is that first impression that the buyer receives when he sees a breed at a show that counts!

If they see QHs walking around the ring quietly, then they will *believe* that the QH is a quiet and safe breed for a family horse. Then they seeArab stallions being 'set' on each other, even mares running around apparently barely under control and snorting, and THAT does not sell the breed as being safe at all.

It does not matter that the QHs may be doped or that the Arabs may be pussy-cats at home: the buyer has already got a stereotype fixed in their mind, and it will take a lot to change that.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

Keren
Sybille

Salaa El Dine watching closely his rival Hafid Jamil, photo taken from his article

In my eyes well-trained stallions have no problem with standing siede by side or face to face. Don't overdo this! You can do it without danger for everybody involved, four-legged and two-legged. Sometimes the discussions here reminds me of a kindergarten. Do it or levae it - it's up to you but don't make a religion out of your opinion.

Dear Cheryl
I agree with you: PARENTS are the role models for our children, not trainers/handlers of horses! dry.gif
larapintavian
QUOTE (Sybille @ Oct 4 2006, 02:52 PM)
Dear Cheryl
I agree with you: PARENTS are the role models for our children, not trainers/handlers of horses!  dry.gif
*


And when the PARENTS are ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS with horses (which is most often the case now), then what ?? Who or what do THEY copy ......
Marilee
Look at the expressions (faces) and the body language of the people and the stallions in the picture. Doesn't look like fun to me! Looks like an accident waiting to happen. I would not allow my horse to be shown like this. PS----I like your analogy to kindergarten. I am a kg teacher and it is safety first, with my students and with my horses! If newcomers see this site (and I do refer people to this great website), I will again speak up when I see an unsafe situation.
HLM
Dear Marilee

Yes the strike of a stallion's front leg is faster than lightening. those people who experienced smashed legs of their own, will confirm this.
NOne of such studs meant to hurt the handler, they simply tried to tell the other stallions something.

I never thought we had to point out the dangers, a horse's thinking and doing
I thought that people were taught all about a "Horse". But of course, we can not teach wisdom.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian farms
Guest
QUOTE (Sybille @ Oct 4 2006, 02:52 PM)
In my eyes well-trained stallions have no problem with standing siede by side or face to face. Don't overdo this! You can do it without danger for everybody involved, four-legged and two-legged. Sometimes the discussions here reminds me of a kindergarten. Do it or levae it - it's up to you but don't make a religion out of your opinion.


I remember a wonderful liberty class in Deurne some years back - a Dutch handler (sorry cant remember his name) led in TWO russian bred stallions, i think one was called Arben and the other Nabob, not sure, but I think they were both Balaton sons, one in the left hand one in the right. They were PERFECTLY well behaved. Just as a two well mannered stallions can be ridden right next to each other without a squeak.

There are many many people out there in the horse world. Many have a life long experience and a wealth of knowledge, others have a lot of knowledge from a shorter experience too. I think it's great if these people share their experiences. But I don't appreciate it if such people think they are absolutely infallible, and have the right to attack those who have a different opinion. Even after a lifelong experience, one can always learn new things. Until you reach the point where you think you know everything and are always right, and are not prepared to consider new possibilities anymore. That's when people stop listening to you, and you start missing out on things. The overall message I get from a certain person here is "If you don't do it my way, you're stupid"... I myself believe that every coin has at least two sides, and I hope I'll always be open to learn new things, no matter how old or experienced I am. Just my opinion, I dont take it personally if people dont agree with me wink.gif
HLM
Well my dear Guest there is a destinct differene between leading two stallions or riding them. Riding them you have total control, at least if you know how to ride. On foot you do not.

It is not that some folks know how to handle the horses, it is what they are teaching with it. Some of the greatest horsemen/women have learned wisdom through "Experiences" which includes tom and Rhita McNair, both at one time almost gotten killed by well trained studs, who concentrated more on mares in heat then anythingelse.

Furthermore, what does such dangerous nonsense really proof?
This opinion of mine should be in the back of everybody's head and throughly thought through and not discarded thinking we are inexperinced children making a noise..
We possible have forgotten more of what we have seen and experienced than others might learn in a lifetime.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Georgia
Hello all,
Very good reading,
I think anyone that doesn't think they are a role model
(or shall I say an example) to other people or children are fooling themselves. You may not want to be, but you are and have a responsibility to all in this world.
It is hard to think that any one parent can instill everything a child needs to know.
We are always looking to someone else. Thank God, I didn't turn out like some in my family or only had them to model myself and learn after. I had other good people around me to model myself after and learn that there was a different way of life. I had many good horsemen over the years that were good role models
and I'm the horseman today because of it... we all are, whether you know it or not.
In my day it took the whole neighborhood to raise a kid, if I got into trouble at someone else’s house.. I was in trouble at home etc etc. Parents cannot be with their children 24 hours a day. Well, off my soap box.. JMHO.

Anyway, anyone that has ever handled a stallion knows how on the very edge you can be and feel at times, even without the nose of a stallion in your face.
It is absolutely dangerous no matter how experienced. I say they are just lucky.
The only half way safe stallions are those that are taught not to react like a stallion at all in the presence of another horse. I have seen those very well trained boys at the shows and on the trail. But, even those that naturally have a puppy dog disposition or well-trained need to be watched. I had a friend that had one that she pasture bred and lived in the field with mares and foals. He was very easy and not really stallion like at all. I always reminded my friend that she needed to remember that he is a stallion and anything can happen at anytime.
She ended up in the hospital with a separated thigh where the stallion lunged at her and grabbed her leg in his mouth and literally separated the muscle from the leg it was terrible and vicious bite. It looks like she has two thighs. She was riding a mare out in the field to bring them all in, as she had done thousands of times and she said my words went through her mind as this happened.

It would only take a split second, for one of those stallions to strike breaking legs of other stallions and handlers alike. It would be mayhem if any one handler went down.

Ok, all good talk and thoughts,
Georgia
K2A
Animals have a mind of their own that we cannot always control. We need to remember that. I am a newcommer, and I chose to let the professionals handle my babies before I receive them. I have leased mares and the babies have not been with me. I want them to have a sound mind. I have chosen for my safety and the babies safety to do this. I have bought babies that were weanlings and have sent them to the professional before I received them. This has worked wonderfully for us. I love our babies and I feel they have no baggage or bad habits. They will know what to do when we decide to send them back to be in the"limelite". Easy for me, easy for the babies, everybody is happy, and nobody gets hurt. Mostly I will never get disenchanted with what makes me happy. Seeing that they LOVE ME> That's what matters. Choose what's right for you. Make the RIGHT choice for each individual horse.
Kenna
K2 Arabians

Next...
Allison of Talaria
I read K2's post with interest--and empathy.

I believe sincerely that the Arabian horse world has changed wth our ever burgeoning populaton. As our culture and the urbanization of our population has changed, fewer and fewer people have the space/land/facility to keep their own horses. Thus, many devoted, and loving, Arabian horse owners have neither the land nor the time to properly manage their horses. I know this very well, as our farm manages horses for many owners (from California and New York City to Georgia) who do not have facilities, or the time, to care for them personally.

Does this mean that these folks are not fine owners? Not at all--in fact, many of them have horses with professionals, or at farms, which specialize in managing private horse herds, where the care is exemplary and the horses live quite privileged lives. These owners care enough for their horses to fund such care.

For all of us who wish to sell our foals, and popularize the Arabian breed, this type of client/owner is absolutely crucial! If folks living in suburban communiities, or apartment/condo high-rises, fall in love with the incredible Arabian horse and wish to own one--then we must find means to help them do so. We must also be able to provide them with a learning experience which is rarely available today, given that fewer and fewer horse owners live on farms breeding horses, delivering foals, etc.

I know K2 personally, and her husband, and they are making sincere, valuable, and heartfelt contributions to the Arabian breed--including donating their time and efforts to local shows and organizations. Would that we had a legion more like them! biggrin.gif

Allison of Talaria
Guest_kim_*
Dear Sybille,

you have used the picture of Salaa El Dine and Hafid Jamil as an example-
but do you also know what happend next???

Both stallions did turn around, trying to kick each other-
and the two people who stood between them then, had to jump away.
If you do a little search, you will find the following pictures...

So, even very well behaved stallions are no guarantee, as this is their instinct...
Sybille
Dear KIm
I was there and saw it. Nevertheless, nothing really happened. The stallions calmed down, that was it. biggrin.gif
Guest
QUOTE (Allison of Talaria @ Oct 5 2006, 03:52 AM)
I know this very well, as our farm manages horses for many owners (from California and New York City  to Georgia) who do not have facilities, or the time, to care for them personally.
*


But why have horses if you dont have the time for them? where is the point? blink.gif
Ralf
Please don't judge all owners who are not able to live with their horses. I know many people living in big cities aerning money all day and want to have something beautiful in their live to enjoy. They keep their horses in care with people who have experience and knowledge. Later when they retired many of these people move to the country to be with their horses.
BASILISK
As Georgia says, anyone who doesn't think children take 'big name' trainers, etc for role models is not living in the real world. Children have an in-built resistance to listening to their parents in any case: you can tell them things over and over again without it making any difference, then one day they'll do whatever you were asking and tell you that "it's cool because my friend Joe does it"(!!).

As a DC, I have had to deal with children copying 'big name trainers' and as a result putting other competitors at risk. I even had one little dear who continually flicked her mare's udder with her whip "to wake her up".

Setting a good example in terms of safety and responsibility should be at the front of every mature person's mind around horses. In the EU in particular, we are subject to ever tighter laws rearding health and safety - 'cockfighting' very likely contravenes these, as well as ECAHO rules. It will only take one show to be prosecuted, and there will be serious consequences for all shows.

Keren
Guest
QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 5 2006, 01:15 AM)
Well my dear Guest there is a destinct differene between leading two stallions or riding them. Riding them you have total control, at least if you know how to ride. On foot you do not.

Well then it's a pity that you didn't read my post properly, as my example was of two stallions LED into the ring and around it at a trot by one handler. Then he stood with them in the middle and they stood there perfectly well behaved. So at least SOME stallions are able to be handled that way. (O.K. perhaps they don't count for you because they were russians? wink.gif )

QUOTE
you can tell them things over and over again without it making any difference, then one day they'll do whatever you were asking and tell you that "it's cool because my friend Joe does it"(!!).

Perhaps some day when my kid is going through a phase of "MY way is the only right way" he will say "but grown-ups like H**** behave like that too, I read it every day on SE.com!" biggrin.gif So much for being role models... EVERYONE needs a minimum level of tolerance and humility, no matter how experienced and knowledgeable they think themselves. Theres always two sides to a coin.
K2A
Thank you Allison, for you kind words. When we decided to enter this "World of the Arabian" we had no idea of the twists and turns that would be presented to us. We are so forturnate to have met positive influences such as yourself, Denni Mack (Koweta Arabians), Chris Anckersen, Michael Byatt, and many others.
We are more than willing to bring others into this ADVENTURE of LIFE. Excitement of what we BELIEVE in will help promote this industry.
We look forward to a prosperous future, not just monetarily, but, spiritually. Ya Know, it kinda is like a religion. Everyone has their little "camps".
There is nothing wrong with being different. That's what makes everyone special.
Peace among us:) for we love the same thing...THE ARABIAN BREED!
Guest_Manuela_*
Hansi

even Tom Mc Nair did it with SAKR and I guess it was IBN MORAFIC when they both received their legion of merit trophy. Both stallions stood face to face in the ring. I can scan the photo for you if you like and post it here.
Some doi it, some not. Why always to make a problem out of such things?
HLM
Guest:

"Because they were russians"? what a dumb remark. with this attitude I know exactly where you are coming from. So save me from your advice please.

Hansi mad.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Allison

I agree in part with you. But dont you think it is better for a person not having the facilities to own an Arabian to ride? What good is it to create/grow up breeding stock without the owners personal supervision, managment and touch, unless this is just for a short little time.
Also the IRS requires owners to be/work with their horses exnumber of hours per year.

I think promoting the Arabian horses as "riding/pleasure/horses" would stimulate the market much more than having a bunch of horses somewhere boarded to create more foals who go through the same thing.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Ralph

Yes this is true, if it is a riding horse. How can such person discribe the horses-their foals- to a buyer, they disposition, their functioability, etc.etc.
surely you cant call such owners "Breeders" or? Yes there are expert boarding facilities around, but are they all? Are these owners knowledgable enough to know the difference? It takes years to learn the art of breeding a good horse, and it usually starts with people who ride well, can judge a horse accordingly and breed accordingly.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian farms
Guest
QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 5 2006, 03:36 PM)
Guest:
"Because they were russians"? what a dumb remark. with this attitude I know exactly where you are coming from. So save me from your advice please.
Hansi mad.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


Hi Hansi,
well I'm afraid that's the impression I got from you the one and only time I met you in person. Upon learning that I own only Russians, you said "oh, poor thing" and turned away. I've repeated the conversation to you here before but insist that you can't (or don't want to?) remember. That was in Paris at the World Championships at the end of the 90s (I think 1997 or 98, but I'm not sure), not quite sure. Perhaps you meant it as a joke, but it certainly didn't seem that way at the time.

QUOTE
So save me from your advice please

I guess that's what a lot of people have been thinking throughout this thread. Because you keep insisting that only YOUR opinion counts and that everyone else is dumb. And you keep ignoring those comments on this thread which don't fit in with your opinion (Manuelas for instance?), or run those people down, because they DARE to contradict you. ph34r.gif
HLM
Guest

No I dont remember saying such a dumb thing, because I never would. I love all horses, regardless of breeder/owner or nationality. you must have grossly misunderstood or just wanted to think this way. Matter of fat I am always praising the Russian,Polish etc.etc. breeding programs and my deep respect for them. So, please dont look for something which is not there, just to start trouble.

I really feel sorry for you, thinking/saying I run people down. I dont, and never will. I issue my opinions, which might not be anybodyelses's which I respect. At least I sign my name, which you obviously are afraid to do.
So give us something constructive to talk about, not just plain misery.


Hansi dry.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
Hansi,

last time I wrote that I signed my name under it and got more abuse. You said that to me in my face, and I'll never forget it, even though you plainly have. I won't waste my breath discussing it with you any more.
And seeing that you ignore the rest of my statement, just as you ignore everyone elses comments when they ask you not to make a religion out of your opinion, a constructive discussion seems rather out of question.
Just food for thought, but I have no doubt that you will ignore that too.
Guest
I know that we are most of us tired of Hansi's endless speaches.
Most people have other things to do than write endless stories about own opinions, without listening to others. But just go on Hansi, you are at least enjoying it yourself, few people read your posts when they see you wrote them. It's easier just to scroll past them and read all other nice things written in this wonderful forum!! tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif
Marilee
Lest we forget, we do have the love of our horses in common. Others are reading this. Who has positive suggestions for how to bring new people or return others to the Arabian breed?

1) do more than just show in Arabian breed shows or advertise in Arabian breed magazines

2) reach out to children of all races and economic groups with your horses


3) be safe and respectful with your horses, as others will see and maybe copy


(please continue in a positive thread--then we can share this brainstorming with others and make some needed changes) Thanks-Marilee, Las Vegas, Nevada biggrin.gif
Marilee
PS--Hansi writes because she is passionate about her feelings. I hope I can speak up as well in years to come. We can disagree, but we can do it in a respectful/different way. If I were an outsider reading this, would I want to get an Arabian?
heidip
My two year old stallion is pastured with other horses, he wouldn't think of striking one not even the foals.I do resent being told I have to ride my SE's for them to be worth anything.I do ride but thats not anyone else's business.I have young kids to my farm all the time riding.And they haul my young stallion around.People that fall in love with the Arabian horse should be welcomed on any terms they want to own them.Finding a soul mate in the wonder and beauty that surrounds Arabians for some is enough, Who are we to decide they need to live with them ect? I get just as big a thrill just spending time with my group as I do riding.In the ever sprawl of suburia there is not that much room for new farms.Better that people own and love their horses in a boarding stable then not owning any.God bless the Arabian horse and those that love them.
K2A
Here, here!! Heidip
Those with closed minds speak to themselves.
Guest
QUOTE (Guest @ Oct 5 2006, 07:16 PM)
Hansi,
last time I wrote that I signed my name under it and got more abuse. You said that to me in my face, and I'll never forget it, even though you plainly have. I won't waste my breath discussing it with you any more.
And seeing that you ignore the rest of my statement, just as you ignore everyone elses comments when they ask you not to make a religion out of your opinion, a constructive discussion seems rather out of question.
Just food for thought, but I have no doubt that you will ignore that too.
*

QUOTE (Guest @ Oct 5 2006, 07:25 PM)
I know that we are most of us tired of Hansi's endless speaches.
Most people have other things to do than write endless stories about own opinions, without listening to others. But just go on Hansi, you are at least enjoying it yourself,  few people read your posts when they see you wrote them. It's easier just to scroll past them and read all other nice things written in this wonderful forum!! tongue.gif  tongue.gif  tongue.gif
*

I totally agree with you, Guest, and that's why when I post a reply I don't sign my name because what happened to you happened to me!! dry.gif

QUOTE (Marilee @ Oct 5 2006, 07:26 PM)
Lest we forget, we do have the love of our horses in common.  Others are reading this.    Who has positive suggestions for how to bring new people or return others to the Arabian breed?
1)  do more than just show in Arabian breed shows or advertise in Arabian breed magazines
2)  reach out to children of all races and economic groups with your horses
3)  be safe and respectful with your horses, as others will see and maybe copy
(please continue in a positive thread--then we can share this brainstorming with others and make some needed changes)  Thanks-Marilee,  Las Vegas,  Nevada      biggrin.gif
*

QUOTE (Marilee @ Oct 5 2006, 07:33 PM)
PS--Hansi writes because she is passionate about her feelings.  I hope I can speak up as well in years to come.  We can disagree, but we can do it in a respectful/different way.  If I were an outsider reading this, would I want to get an Arabian?
*

I agree with you, Marilee, but you are also more tactful then others. smile.gif And to answer your question, "If I were an outsider reading this, would I want to get an Arabian?"......sadly, NO! sad.gif

QUOTE (heidip @ Oct 5 2006, 07:42 PM)
My two year old stallion is pastured with other horses, he wouldn't think of striking one not even the foals.I do resent being told I have to ride my SE's for them to be worth anything.I do ride but thats not anyone else's business.I have young kids to my farm all the time riding.And they haul my young stallion around.People that fall in love with the Arabian horse should be welcomed on any terms they want to own them.Finding a soul mate in the wonder and beauty that surrounds Arabians for some is enough, Who are we to decide they need to live with them ect? I get just as big a thrill just spending time with my group as I do riding.In the ever sprawl of suburia there is not that much room for new farms.Better that people own and love their horses in a boarding stable then not owning any.God bless the Arabian horse and those that love them.
*

Yes, Heidi! biggrin.gif I have owned Arabians for years, breed and board them, because I don't have the luxury of owning a farm, and my horses receive the best of care and training and no one has the right to decide otherwise....except for me!! dry.gif

QUOTE (K2A @ Oct 5 2006, 08:14 PM)
Here, here!!  Heidip
Those with closed minds speak to themselves.
*

Perfect comment, K2A!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Guest_Manuela_*
I found the picture of Sakr and ibn Morafic led by Tom McNair and Douglas Marshall. They stand face to face in the ring and inbetween them Mrs Marshall (?)and both stallions look alert but not agressiv. When they did it Hansi why should others do not?
I can't figure out how to put this pic in the forum however, I'll send it to the webmaster and hope he will.
Guest_maxhopemime_*
Its sad that there are people out there who will think it's OK to do this with out proir schooling of the horses involved. And when a tragic accident happens it will be one more reason newcomers will look to other breeds more suitable for their familys. I cann't ever recall the last time I saw QH's stood nose to nose can you?
K2A
THE ARABIAN BREED...
The STANDARD
Love what you have, make what you love, and you will be successful!
People follow what THEY believe in. If your not doing that, there are other issues.
That, probably is another thread. smile.gif
Don't be a sheep. If you wouldn't have it in you pasture to appreciate, you don't need to breed it.
KNOW what is right for you. BELIEVE!

Investigation of everything, leads me down the right path.
Do your research.
That will make this industry THRIVE.
= THE COMPLETE PACKAGE smile.gif
Everyone wants that...
...to each ones disgression.(sp) unsure.gif
Sybille
Again (see Pianissima thread) we should agree to disagree.

Maxophemime
Do you ever realized that Arabians are DIFFERENT than QHs? It's this difference that makes Arabians so special. They are a whole lot easier to handle than QHs or warmblood horses for that matter. But again: We should agree to disagree here. biggrin.gif
Oliver
Yes, I agree again: We should agree to disagree! biggrin.gif
Important is that we all respect other opinions and not trying to convince the whole
world to follow our own opinion.

Manuela sent me this picture, I guess it's Ibn Morafic on the left
and Sakr on the right together with Douglas B. Marshall and the late Tom McNair respectively.
The late Margaret Marshal (Douglas B. Marshall's wife) is standing in the middle.
ETC
Stallions who are used to other stallions are not dangerous to each other! That most trainers also know, not to put the wrong stallion to another horse..
This is again- two stallions enjoying each other's company.


Click to view attachment
MAXHOPEMIME
Sybillie,

I know the difference but, do newcommers? We have all repeatedly heard the perception that Arabians are hot, reactive, hard to control, crazy, etc.

How did it get that way? We took the normal exuberence of the animal to new heights in the halter ring and put too much emphasis on those classes.

I have friends who are not horse folks by any means whose only exposure to the arabian was the happenstance of seeing a halter class on cable tv. Their first remark to me when I told them I had arabians was "those horses are crazy wild"

Now we all know that to change my friends perception will be easy all I have to do is have them come over and meet these "wild" beasts in person. But how many have we lost because of first impressions?

Respectfully,
Chris
Basilisk
All the cases of stallions presented together without any trouble have one thing in common - they are from the same establishment!

It is, as ETC points out, completely different to putting two strange horses together in a face-off.

Further, if you look *carefully* at the photo of Ibn Morafic and Sakr, NO-ONE is standing between the two stallion: both handlers are standing well to one side, and Margaret Marshall is standing even further out of the way. So even the people who know these horses *intimately* are not placing themselves in danger.

Arabians ARE seen to be a dangerous breed: one well established PRE breeder told a group of artists - including myself - visiting his stud how gentle his stallion are, and how they could be left tied up together without any trouble. He then added "You couldn't do THAT with Arabs"!

When it comes to safety, it is not a matter of opinion: it is a question of what is safe and what is not. Lots of people ride without hard hats, but that does not mean it is safe to do so: ask any brain surgeon.

heidpi, you will find your colt a very different chap when he gets a bit older and his hormones kick in! He will not be nasty, but he will be a LOT more assertive. My 2 stallions ran together all the time as youngsters and were only separated when one had an accident on the lunge at 3yo: however, I could not turn them out in the same paddock permanently after that as they played so much more roughly (but not maliciously) they were taking lumps out of each other.

Even stallions that adore their owners can - under the influence of their hormones - sometime 'lose the plot' and injure their owners.

Finally, I would like to say that though I have never met Hansi, I do know who she is and what she has donme with and for the breed, and I have found her contributions to every thread I have so far read in my short time here both instructive and constructive. I would therefore not dream of trying to contradict her using instances of horses and people she knew personally!

Keren
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