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Malouf Arabian Stud
I have been accused of being horse crazy many times in my life. I am Jessica Malouf and I whole heartedly agree, I eat, breathe, sleep horses (Egyptian Arabians to be exact) and so does Tom Heshion of Hallmark Arabian Stud.

I met Tom in 1997 at a meeting in Northern Calif, where Tom presented a far out concept, hold on to your mouse now! Tom proposed that Egyptian Breeders stand together and coop resources for the greater good of the Egyptian Arabian. This coop would cull colts and geld them, and then stand behind quality stallions. All horses would be presented with quality photographs, video, and an evaluation. Just think how easy it would be for Buyers, No sifting, no waisted time, fuel, and dollars. All would benefit, Mare owners with foals being sold, Stallion owners who could now put oats on the table because breedings were being booked.

I called Tom a month ago, we talked for hours, my ear was numb, my voice was hoarse, and I had a new outlook toward my four legged compadres.

Almost 10 years after our first meeting Tom is still standing by his ideal. So in light of Tom's perspective, can we make Tom's ideal work? Is there a group of people out there that can inspire one another harmoniously? As president of The Egyptian Arabian Horse Association formely Northern California Egyptian Breeders (which by the way is still around, but is in serious need of rejuvination) I would love to see a great group of people come together and breathe new life into the association. Would it be possible to use Tom's outline to mold an Egyptian Arabian utopia out of EAHA? A place where Buyers and Sellers meet with honesty, sincerity, and integrity. I think this could fly? What do you think? I believe that the ultimate benefit in the end would be for the Egyptian Arabian, more foals would be produced from precious bloodlines that are at risk of becoming part of the past, too many mare lines have been lost already.

If you need a new perspective, call Tom. By the way Hallmark Arabian Stud has a stunning group of Egyptian Arabians, My visit was short and sweet, my head was spinning the whole flight home with breeding and marketing concepts, and pedigrees. I was able to see the horses on paper, watch them on video and touch them in the flesh and I was impressed.

Jessica Malouf
Malouf Arabian Stud
Liz Salmon
I think that's it's a great idea. Some of the Georgia SE breeders are trying to do something similar. I evaluated Tom's herd last year, he does have some lovely horses.
HLM
Yes, Jessica, this is a very good idia and would benefit the Ses greatly.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Malouf Arabian Stud
Thank you Liz and Hansi!

Liz,
Can you give some insight or guidelines that miight be followed for the evaluations. Should the evaluations be contracted by the assoc. with one appraiseer, or multiple appraisers? Should the association develope their own format for the appraiser(s) to use? Please let us know your thoughts on this, and anything else you can contribute would be greatly appreciated?

Jessica Malouf
Liz Salmon
Here are my thoughts on this. First of all, I haven't had very good experiences with the appraisers I've come across in court that are Certified Equine Appraisers. They often are very general and in both cases I experienced, they had not researched the pedigrees or show winnings of the horses concerned. I'm sure there are good ones, but these two were very ignorant on Arabians and Warmbloods, which the cases were about.

Secondly, when I go to do evaluations, I want to see the pedigrees. I do my written details on a specially designed form with the horse in a very relaxed position—I do not want to see the show pose. Then I want to see them walk towards and away from me. They are then turned loose for me to see movement and presence. I make an overall comment at the bottom of the form as to the horses ability and what I perceive is his future in the show ring Halter/Performance or if I feel that it's going to be a good pleasure trail or endurance horse. I also comment on temperament. I posted my format on another thread.

This last paragraph is always designed for use in ads for marketing or can be used for stallions at stud. I probably do anywhere from 150 to 200 per year, and I keep records of them all. The owners will get a typed form on my letter heading and dated. With young horses up to 5 years when commenting on toplines or croups I always add 'At the moment' because of the way young horses can go up behind and then level off. It seems that an independant evaluation can help in marketing and the IRS like breeders using a consultant, as they say it shows the breeder is serious—that's what one told me
anyway !!
Malouf Arabian Stud
Wow, thank you Liz!

What I understand from your post, is that we would have a better advantage to use a consultant over an appraiser. I can definately see the advantage to having herd evaluations, in fact I would like to have my current herd re-evaluated, I feel it is very important to stay connected with your goals, and hiring a consultant would really help to stay the course, and the point you gave concerning the IRS is a bonus.

Jessica Malouf
Liz Salmon
Sometimes when you look at your horses everyday, it's very easy to miss a slight trend that has appeared. Twice in the last year I have walked round Simeon Stud with Marion, which was great as we discussed each horse and the future. An independant eye can be very objective and helpful. I had great mentors, who taught me about evaluating foals—what can change and what doesn't.

In 1980 I judged 125 foals at the British Nationals aged from 2 to 6 months. I've never forgotten that—it was tough. My Champion foal was a filly and is the dam of the imported stallion Rushan—now at stud in California. He was Supreme Overall Champion at the British Nationals in 1997 as a yearling and looked a lot like his mother as a foal.
Echo1
I think this is a good idea. I would like to see stallions tested and some standards or better criteria used on stallions in particular. I don't mean just tested under saddle, but I mean the pedigree and the conformation and the horses must certainly have type and be of excellent quality and not just have a good pedigree, but be an excellent representative of that pedigree.
In regards to pedigrees as was mentioned a young potential stallion, in my opinion to be considered he should reflect the quality of the sire or gransdsires and be every bit as good if not better than them to be a potential stallion. Then he must be proven to produce as well.. There should be a natural progression and improvement being seen with each passing generation as opposed to horses which are becoming paler versions of the great horses that were in the pedigree. If not an improvement in a stallions sons and daughters at the minimum horses who are at least equal to the quality of their parents and grandparents.
Same with mares, but in general I think it would be a wise idea to start keeping track of, and catagorizing mares of each family and keep records on them and their production to avoid losing lines. The mares themselves should be representative to their family and also carry the look and quality the family is noted for. I think, and again, it's just my opinion, but we need to strive for excellence in quality, type, and solid breeding horses who are truly of top standards and begin to identify premium breeding stallions and mares.
Malouf Arabian Stud
Echo1,
I have some questions about your post. I appreciate the theory behind what you have written, so with that in mind, how can we implement these strategies? I want to walk the walk on this thing, I truly believe we could create a tight knit Egyptian Arabian FAMILY. What is more important? A foal representing most strongly the female family or the sires. Can a foal represent both at the same time with different strains being used in a pedireee? Or would you need to use pure in strain to accomplish this? Could we use something like a Keuring? We could set up evaluation clinics by request of individual breeders in their region. Would this become more complicated than it really needs to be? What about having photo and video clinics in requested regions, where a farm can host the services and breeders can then bring their horses? Could we combine the photo and video clinic with the evaluations? As you can see there are a lot of possibilities, my motto is often "You are only limited by your imagination!"

Jessica Malouf
Hallmarkstud
First, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Second, I don't have much time, if I'm late for turkey, My Aunt Suzie will cook me next!

Jessica, I'm glad you enjoyed your visit. Before I leave for the day, I'd like to clarify a couple of things. This is what I believe.....

There are far too many stallions. Owners don't want to geld, they've got to get a grip. Geldings are better horses for common ownership and are usually happier. Frozen semen is a great alternative and far less expensive.

Many times, large operations work because their stallions have a wide variety of mares to promote them.....So go with the flow..........but use only the greatest stallions. Further.......Marketing is cheaper by the dozen and doesn't need to be controlled by the large farm. It should be controlled by the buyers.

As a buyer, I always felt pushed by the breeders to agree with their theories. i would have felt much better in one central office where all the horses were viewable via video and pedigree and grouped by independent score and price. Then I wouldn't have to offend anybody by saying ...No thank you. I would have saved all kinds of time for me and the sellers.

So.....what's wrong with a central sales office that endorses great stallions, where everyone sends their videos and pays a small fee matched by the stallion owner? ........People could come from all over the world and save lots of time and money. The POOL would continually advertise the sales center.

Even with the internet, as great as it is.........it can be better. I have to sift through all the ads........get ahold of the people.......have them send a dvd.......on and on.

Forget what the sellers want..........A buyer wants lots of info........non biased.......substanciated...........And they want to know that they too will have a fair opportunity to market their foals without having to trust someone else to do it for them.

I have to go for now, but this is a very important topic. I wasn't ready for it to start..........I'll check in,

Tom Heshion
Echo1
Jessica,

I think a Keuring is very much similar in what some here are suggesting but that would only be in regards to conformation and athletic ability etc. What else I think should be considered is a pedigree Keuring, for lack of a better term, in that the horse meets the pedigree as well. In other words, the horse must not simply have 'a' pedigree but be an excellent representation of it as well. Where the potential meets excellence. If one is claiming to have a stallion who is a great son of Morafic for example, then don't you think this colt should look like and posess the best qualities of Morafic? If one claims to have a filly who is a Bint Bukra family, should she not be an excellent represention of it as well?
So I'm thinking maybe beyond what is done in a looking at a horse in a breeding class and being evaluated on conformation and movement, but if the horse is supposed a great breeding horse, should his genetics be examined as well and shouldn't he or she be an excellent representative of it as well?
Then even beyond conformation and pedigree, we should seek horses who are of excellence in type and quality.
Other things to consider are then grading all these horses for health and breeding soundness, temperment and disposition.

This reminds me of conversations that I had years ago with other breeders outside of the US about the idea of having an USA /EAO type program and although the horses may not be housed in the same facility it would be a USA Straight Egyptian Bloodstock program of the "most exceptional breeding horses". Similar to how Gen Von Szandtner had catagorized families of mares and selected only the very best representatives. He then selected the best stallions like Nazeer, Shiekh El Arab, Sid Abohoum, El Sareei.
I think we are able to easily identify the best show horses or best performance horses but I am hoping for something more than that.
Echo1
Tom,

We must have been posting at the same time. Happy Thanksgiving.

I see better now what you are suggesting. So my question is if this is just for the purpose of selling horses? I'm wondering though if more would be inclined to see this go beyond that, or rather that having some of the foals for sale would be a by product of this established group of premium breeding horses. Possibly it would be a good idea to first establish a USA SE Bloodstock of horses which were put forth based on criteria which is supported or criteria guidlelines of the world's top breeders and experts on horsebreeding.
Guest
These are great ideas but are you not putting the cart before the horse?

First off the breed needs to correctly establish a breed standard. Sorry the Gladys Brown Edwards one just does not do enough in my opinion. Also, after the standard has been put in place and agreed upon by all and sundry then we have to train judges to know how to evaluate horses based upon the agreed upon standard for the breed. This is no reflection on anyone who thinks they are qualified to evaluate but I would want to have trained judges and not just one person or two people who are acceptable to some of the people here on this forum doing evaluations. Maybe I have a different opinion on things than say Liz does (just use this name for an example only). Maybe a lot of people do not like the same horses Liz likes or for that matter Hansi (again just use this name as an example). I also think evaluations should come from trained judges that do not make a living out of doing this or are not breeding SE horses and have their own farms and/or agenda's.

Just a few thoughts rolleyes.gif
Guest_carol_*
Would this just be another beauty contest ? Some ugly mares throw beauty . Witness the ancestors..Some beautys throw not so beautiful..

If you go form And function . How are you going to evaluate the legs, which I find the SE community has to get a grip on.

How would you evaluate for instance a SE with a dippy back ,
Towed out and under the knee..In other words crooked front legs at any angle.
Would you write him off even if he bred world champions

Would the stud fees rise higher than they are now , for the lead and feed ornaments that have done nothing else

Will this become another click [spel]

If you want people to breed better SEs , make the better stallions available to the unwashed masses.

If you want to See what a stallion can produce , let him at All comers
Not just the Cherry -picked ones.
One astute breeder said a Great one comes along every 50 yrs.
Maybe that Great one will have a non-descript sire or dam

But whose to know if they did,nt pass a test
Mr Prospector
This would certainly work to improve the quality of the breed.

Suppose you had a non egyptian mare you wanted to breed, then what?

What if you had a non Arabian mare?

How would you use this for international promotion - would AI be available through this central hub?

You could have teachers available and mentors for first time owners and make a mini industry out of this.

You are right, you are only limited by your imagination

good luck - it is a good idea. Will be extremely hard to sell, but hey I reckon

JUST DO IT

Karen
Malouf Arabian Stud
Echo1,
I do believe that the horses temperment/disposition would also be a factor in the evaluation process, it could simply be added to the form. As far as breeding soundness, that would be an issue that could be handled by a repro vet. I know that I am happy to provide the most recent repro worksheet on my stallion for sale, I would be pleased to do the same for mares.

Now, regarding the "pedigree keuring". I don't advertise any horse's as the most look alike to any of their ancestors, I will most surely recognize members of the family and what they brought in to the mix, but I admit that that would be my subjective opinion. How would you recognize if an individual is the best representative of it's pedigree? That's a lot of horses you're talking about. What if the individual looks somewhat like the combination of the great grand sire on the dams side, and the great great grand dam on the sires side, and the horse had outstanding conformation, and a lovely temperment? Would the horse be less desirable? Who would evaluate this? Wouldn't it be to subjective on the part of the examiner? I know I wouldn't want that job!

Jessica Malouf
Holly
Hello Everyone - There is a marvelous evaluation system already in place for Arabian horses. It has been designed and implemented with great success by Dr. John Shelle of Michigan State University for their Arabian Breeding Program.
Dr. Shelle gave a fascinating lecture and slide presentation that was in my opinion the most valuable information of the entire seminar at the 2006 Symposium on Preservation put on by The Institue for the Desert Arabian Horse. The Institue has available a dvd on the entire seminar which included judging seminars for the different judging systems using live horses which included Liz Salmon, Patti Felker-Breiner, Adele Furby, and Cynthia Richardson. Dr. Shelle would like to see the Arabian Horse Association implement this type of system which gives a numerical score to each part of a horse. This type of information has been used by the cattle industry for years. The major obstacle to overcome in this evaluation system is the fact that breeders, especially newcomers, need to be educated to the fact that this is not a negative evaluation in any sense and that extremes are not necessarily a bad thing. For instance if your mare has pasterns that are extremely short and straight you need to breed to a stallion with the longest sloping pasterns you can find, this way you will have a greater probability of getting the individual that has the average pastern length and slope that is considered perfect. If you breed your mare with the steep pasterns to a stallion that has only the average (considered perfect) length pastern you may see some improvement but not the amount of improvement of breeding the extreme oppisites. Of course this is a simple example and as breeders we all know their is no gurantee that you will get the desired trait. Dr. Shelle also has determined heritability of many traits, but he stated that environment effects heritability dramatically. If this breeding traits model could be used it would be a tremendous tool for breeders. This model would also provide the most unbiased evaluations. For instance extreme heads and pencil thin necks are the current fashion, but as a breeder if you prefer a more masculine look for you stallion or a horse with enough muscle in the neck to hold his head steady in a bridle you would have the information to breed for the kind of horse you like...extreme heads and pencil thin necks or a more working type of conformation. Please no bashing from halter or performance people, I'm just trying to point out how with this system there is no good or bad. After all their are no perfect horses and as we can see each breeder has the goal of producing excellent horses but the results of a breeding program are the results of the type preferred by that breeder, some may want western type horses, some may prefer English Pleasure type. This system can make it easier to evaluate what you need for each horse.

My other point is that I am in extreme disagreement that there should be very few stallions. We are already in a stallion oriented society, and with transported and frozen semen too many breeders are selecting to breed to a limited number of stallions, this dramatically reduces the variety of genetic material available from the stallion side, and when you go a few generations down it becomes difficult to find an outcross. Look at how much Nazeer is in our pedigree's and how difficult it is to find non Nazeer blood to outcross. Again I'm not saying there is anything wrong with an all Nazeer pedigree but we need to maintain genetic diversity, so that breeders in the next century have enough genetic variation to continue the viability of the SE. The most beautiful is not always the best producer, and once gelded you can't put them back, the opportunity to use that horse is gone. A question to ponder, if there had been unlimited Nazeer frozen semen would we have used Morafic, Ansata Ibn Halima, etc. etc. We have all heard of regrets that a stallion wasn't used more because he was overshadowed by the Star of the Barn and then too late his genetic influence was greatly appreciated. It is my opinion that we need to maintain as much genetic diversity as possible.

With 40+ horses I have very limited time to read or post but I will follow this with great interest, a completely unbiased evaluation system needs to be implemented in the horse industry. Just my very passionate opinion.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone biggrin.gif

Holly
Liz Salmon
Holly I agree that Dr. Shelle's lecture was amazing, he was fascinating to listen to. That was a great weekend, I had a lot of fun with it. Dr. Shelle asked me if I would join him in future lectures to talk on conformation, which was very flattering.
Guest_Dave_*
I've had Arabians for a long time and ventured into warmbloods in a small way. I'd like to see a keuring for Arabians to have them evaluated in hand and under saddle. Keuring scores are very useful in making breeding decisions, especially when you can get input about a stallion's get. I paid a lot of attention to gait scores.

I know qualtiy when I see it but it's good to have other input and opinions.

Dave
Hallmarkstud
Holly, for clarification, I didn't say "very few stallions".

Today, in America, there are 168,000 stallions for 361,000 mares...........Way too many stallions.

I frankly don't care if they all stay stallions, But they could be evaluated. I just don't believe that newcomers should be taught to use Ibn Nobody. This process would be fair and out of the promotion game of the past and out of the showmen's control........It would be completely fair and owners wouldn't have to go to any shows whatsoever.........A one time evaluation expence and you're done. Now, go to the Egyptian event and enjoy yourself.......it won't matter if your horse is first or last because most sales will happen throughout the year at the center.

This idea takes nothing away from the small breeder. In fact, I believe that small breeders now hold the largest percentage great mares.

Think of this............The top evaluated SE stallions (pick a number........50 endorsed out of 5000 in the US?) are offered to the "US SE Breeders Alliance".......for a nominal breeding fee........let's say $1,000.00 ........... then, $500.00 of the fee goes to the Alliance for promotion,......600 SE's being bred per year........1/2 through the Alliance........that's 150,000.00 for promotion of the sales center.........That's a lot of $695.00 ads all over the world.........and a lot less Ibn Nobodys.

The problem with this theory is simple........nobody wants their beloved Ibn to be considered a nobody.........The solution is...That's fine......continue to use him themselves and prove through the evaluation process that his get are credible. This will be the biggest hurdle........because it's an emotional one................The good side is.......most breeders would choose one of the top 10 stallions, those owners divide the other $150,000.00 perportionately and at the same time drive the value of their stallion through the roof...........big payoffs for appropriate stallion owners.

The horses would be evaluated the same way and a video produced as Liz Salmon suggested.........like a judge looks at them, close ups on legs....toward and away.........then turned loose..........under saddle if trained.........sport horse, ect. The video editor would have a template to follow so that buyers could follow the evaluators eyes and see why. Each horse would have an evaluation score..let's say 1 through 100. They would be grouped by score and would carry a suggested sale price.......The owner could then decline the suggested price or drop the price if they so desired..........The buyers could then look for what they believe is a 92, priced as an 84........pedigrees would be provided (echo 1 biggrin.gif ).

If a buyers eye is more in agreement with a certain breeders over a certain evaluators, they could then lean towards their own type and find what they consider to be a bargain.

The long and short of it is this...........It would take a great group of stallions to get started......maybe 10......and a great group of mare owners that completely support it.......maybe 100...............Very similar to the large farms of the past, but the large farms wouldn't get the money, the baby owners would.......everything would be above board.

I can only assure you of this.........from a buyers point of view, they would love this process.......open ..honest.. fair and organized.

Most people would say........we already have this........list your horse on the Arabdatasource.......wrong........there is no evaluation and no promotion.

Tom Heshion
Liz Salmon
Tom, I think that your idea is a good one. I see far too many heartbreak situations where enthusiastic newcomers have been ripped off and given very bad information, they certainly haven't been taught anything about conformation and movement.
Guest_Dave_*
Could something of the nature that Tom is talking about be done through the SE sport horse group? Also, I have hopes that evaluation of mares and stallions could be done through the sport horse division. Not to long ago, Emma Maxwell had a thread along the lines of this discussion.

Dave
Georgia
QUOTE (Guest @ Nov 23 2006, 08:37 PM)
These are great ideas but are you not putting the cart before the horse?

First off the breed needs to correctly establish a breed standard.  Sorry the Gladys Brown Edwards one just does not do enough in my opinion.  Also, after the standard has been put in place and agreed upon by all and sundry then we have to train judges to know how to evaluate horses based upon the agreed upon standard for the breed.  This is no reflection on anyone who thinks they are qualified to evaluate but I would want to have trained judges and not just one person or two people who are acceptable to some of the people here on this forum doing evaluations.  Maybe I have a different opinion on things than say Liz does (just use this name for an example only).  Maybe a lot of people do not like the same horses Liz likes or for that matter Hansi (again just use this name as an example).  I also think evaluations should come from trained judges that do not make a living out of doing this or are not breeding SE horses and have their own farms and/or agenda's.

Just a few thoughts rolleyes.gif
*



We have trained judges at the shows now?? ph34r.gif unsure.gif and you would want them to evaluate our breed?? In my book they are one of the reasons we are in this pickle. Evaluations should have nothing to do with Arabian, just evaluate the horse, shoulders, legs, gaskin, hip, neck, head, movement, tail carriage, etc. Should have nothing to do with liking the horse. If you evaluate them as a functional horse, with the equipment to do the job. None will be perfect, but you will better be able to match your mare with your stallion.
There wouldn't be any misleading or with certain shoes OK, or that a club foot is acceptable.. it would be listed on the evaluation.
I find getting these flashy videos, mostly useless. If I received a flashy video along with an evaluation, now I'd know where this horses good or weak points are
all the better. And hopefully, the ones with the club feet (for example) wouldn't be used by others, which would limit or eliminate that trait from our breed at some point. All good.
JMO
Georgia
Malouf Arabian Stud
Thank you Georgia,
Well said. By the way I liked the website you directed me to, very impressive sales record, with happy buyers.

Dave, I believe that the first step, would be a meeting of the breeders, possibly at The Event, I don't believe we should tie ourselves to any one discipline? This is Tom's baby, I would love for him to take the lead and organize this, as a small breeder (13 head) I need this, and I know there are others out there that need it as much as I do!

Jessica Malouf
Marilee
Please let me know how to rejoin your Egyptian Group. I was a former member of the No. Cal. Egyptian club. (PS member since 1981)

We are planning an Egyptian Arabian meeting here in Las Vegas in April. We could also discuss it then.

I think that more grassroots promotion helps us all, no matter what our bloodlines and disciplines.

Thanks, Marilee (kayemgal@aol.com)
Echo1
Tom,

It sounded like it might be a good idea, but your last post is a little sketchy...nevertheless, I wish you luck with it and it will be interesting to see what becomes of it. smile.gif
Ralph
Whatever happened to this idea????
2mntn
Hiya Ralph,

There are several threads with the similar themes running throughout. So I'd say it's a little like universal health care here in the US of A...just not gonna happen!

Happy Days!
Ray
Robert 1
Hi Ralph,
What do you think of Toms idea or should I say a very well layed out plan?

One stallion for every two or three mares, this is overwhelming.

I would say this I agree that there is just far to many stallions out there that do not serve any purpose, and it seems they would serve a better purpose as geldings for young riders to get interested in the Arabian breed as a whole.

Secondly as I have said repeatedly the problem in using average stallions for a breeding here and there is they do nothing to improve the quality of the foals produced by them but, if that same mare was bred to a superior stallion the chances are more likely the foal would be some what improved over the mare and after all this is what it is all about producing better horses and making more riding geldings for so many disciplines, endurance, working cattle, pleasure and many of the show classes aimed at our younger riders.

Tom I hope you fan the fire again. wink.gif
Robert, Echo Hill Arabians
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