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amanda
hi i was just woundering if the prolonged use of regumate would indeed cause damage to a mares kidneys? i knoe high doses or long term use of bute will indeed cause some damage! has any one had a mare on regumte and found it did indeed cause some kidney failiure? or maybe any other health issues thanks.
carolmaginn
Amanda,

I find this absolutely a must do - with older broodmares. I've not had a problem and view it as cheap insurance for an older mare who you don't want to lose a foal due to absorption or whatever....

If you have an older mare or a problem mare - do it (my 2 cents).

Thanks,

Carol
smj
Hi Carol and amanda,good morning biggrin.gif

Can i ask what does regumate do and does it work on mares that has problems
carriing her foal full term??

Is it possible to buy over the internet??

Best wishes

Hanne -smj
amanda
i agree that regumate does have a benefit to older mares, what im woundering is if a mare is put on regumate each breding season for a number of years would this cause damage to the kidneys? like long term use of bute would have? smile.gif
Emma Maxwell
I would also recommend an automatic use of regumate in older mares, especially those who have not foaled for a couple of years.

I am not sure progesterone and bute could be regarded as analogous, one is the synthetic mimic of a hormone produced naturally in the body, the second is a chemical developed to affect and alter complicated processes in the body.

incidentally as bute causes kidney damage, can someone with veterinary knowledge tell me if there is, or if there isn't, why there isn't, an equine equivalent to ibuprofen. It it is an anti inflammatory with low side effects in people. curious to know why it doesn't apply across mammals (or whther i've just missed it under a different name)

cheers Emma
HLM
Hi all

We were told that reumate is expensive, in some cases $ 10.00 per day, or a months supply for $ 279.00. The TB owners with very expensive mares and stud fees apparently use it right away and during the gesttion time.

Over all during our breeding years including very old mares, we never had to use it.Only recently our Vet advised us to use it on two mares we had to ship long distance and worried that they might absorb. We were also told, that once you start a horse on it, you have to continue almost until foaling time.
What we used came in liquid form- $ 279.00 per bottle or a month supply.

those who have experiences, let us know.

thanks and have a great day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Basilisk
Emma, some years back Eileen Tatam told me her vet had warned her about problems with younger women handling Regumate, since it could have adverse effects on *their* fertility. In light of that, she would not let any of her grooms administer it, but did the job herself (I think she was about 72 then, not that you would have believed it!).

Have you ever heard anything to support/refute this?

Also, those of you with experience with oldeer mares, would it be worth trying with a 29yo mare, who doesn't look her age, of very rare bloodlines, or would it stress her too much? She hasn't been bred for some consideerable time.

Keren
CarolHMaginn
Thats about right on the price. I think I pay $236 plus shipping from Valley Vet Supply. I have a perscription from my vet and I give 15 cc per day on my older mare. My younger mare only needed 10 cc per day. Its 1000ml bottle and lasts me longer than 1 month.

Thanks,

Carol
lionsdenfarm
Hi,

I get the Regumate through www.animart.com (hope it is OK to post the addy). It costs $229. for a 1000 ml bottle.

I order my vaccinations through there as well, the catalog is full of lots of "stuff" needed for your critters and the prices are slightly less than elsewhere.

Tracy
HLM
Thanks, it is amazing how prices very from place to place. I will look into it.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
RakisMom
Emma,
I believe the animal use form of ibpropen is ketophen. I get it in an injectable form and use it IV. It is more expensive than bute or banamine, but doesn't cause some of the problems associated with the other pain killers/anti inflammatory drugs. It works better on joint pain. A 100 cc bottle cost me about $225 and the dosage is 10cc.

Regumate....yeah well I can tell you from experience that it should be handled carefully. I have a difficult time with it even with gloves. The rubber gloves are poreous and it still can be absorbed through the skin. It makes me sick like morning sickness when pregnant blink.gif I have a question about Regumate and stallions. Yes, I have heard from several trainers who use it on the stallions while showing and have to wonder about future fertility issues. I DO NOT agree with this abuse and feel it's unethical to use it on a stallion while showing. Just curious....

Have a wonderful day,
Linda
mckulley1
Regumate bottles last considerably longer than 1 month. You give 1cc/100 pounds. I just round all of my mares up to 10cc/day. You do not need to use Regumate longer than the first 90 days of the pregnancy unless the progesterone levels you draw are not high enough to sustain a pregnancy, you need to keep the cervix tight, are using it for an anti-inflammatory effect on the uterus, these kinds of things.

I've placed data below:

Regumate contains the drug Altrenogest, a synthetic progestagen, and is labeled for use in mares to suppress estrus (heat) display. In recent years, some have presented it as having an almost legendary ability to support pregnancies in mares that otherwise appear unable to retain the pregnancy through to birth. Is this truly an ability, or just a legend?

Research performed by McKinnon et. al. indicated that of five progestagens that were tested, Regumate alone had the ability to prevent abortion in pregnancies that were threatened by an experimentally induced lowering of the endogenous progesterone levels. In one experiment2, mares that were pregnant at 14 days post ovulation received one of 5 progestagens, of which Regumate was one. Two days later, the mares were given a luteolytic dose of prostaglandin, which resulted in a drop in blood-progesterone levels in all mares by 2 days after that. It should be noted that the synthetic progestagen altrenogest (Regumate) does not assay as progesterone, so one would not expect to see the continuance of elevated progesterone levels in these mares. All mares in the experiment lost their pregnancies in the next 2-8 days with the exception of those mares that were receiving Regumate.

In a second experiment3, pregnant mares that were in excess of 40 days post original ovulation were ovariectomized after receiving supplementation with exogenous progestagens. Again, only those mares that received Regumate maintained their pregnancies.

There is little doubt therefore, that in mares that do not have endogenous sources for progesterone during the first 3-4 months of pregnancy, the use of Regumate can maintain a pregnancy. The irrational reaching for the Regumate bottle that is commonly seen in the horse breeding public however may well be an overreaction to this proven ability4.

Once again, we have to ask "does my mare need Regumate", and if there is not a clear indication of continued low progesterone levels (generally 4 ng/ml is considered sufficient to maintain pregnancy, although 2 ng/ml is considered sufficient by some researchers5), then the answer is probably "no". The single testing of a progesterone level however is insufficient as an indicator of an ongoing low (or high) level, as progesterone levels - as with other hormonal levels in the body - can and do fluctuate on a day-to-day basis, and even within a single day. To establish that a mare does indeed have "low progesterone" it is necessary to test her 3 or 4 times a day for 3 or 4 days in a row with a continued indication of insufficient levels. Added to that, we must ask another very important question: Is the mare losing the pregnancy because the progesterone levels are low, or are the progesterone levels low because the mare is losing the pregnancy? It has in fact been shown that low serum progesterone concentrations in one study6 were associated with only 1 of 17 cases of spontaneous early embryonic/fetal death in a large herd (179 mares) that were monitored closely!

Another issue to be considered is who recommended that your mare be put on Regumate? Was this a recommendation of your veterinarian familiar with your animals, or a friend or other non-trained person trying to be helpful? If the former, it is likely that the recommendation was made after reviewing your mare's individual situation, and is therefore valid. It should be noted though that most theriogenologists would voice a concern about use of supplemental progestagens if there were not a distinct indication for such supplementation4. Much use of Regumate to allegedly support pregnancy in "low progesterone mares" is carried out at the recommendation of a layperson. A veterinarian who is then approached for a prescription or the drug is placed in an awkward position. If they respond as they should to the request, with the advice that more investigation is needed, they are regarded as attempting to usurp more money from you. If they provide you with the drug or a prescription, they will be considered heroes in the event the mare foals successfully in the spring - even though they may have just caused you to spend money for a drug that was not needed!

There are instances of progesterone levels in the pregnant mare falling to as low as 1 ng/ml (although not for an indefinite period) with the pregnancy being retained5. Likewise, there are many instances of people observing that they resent the cost and inconvenience of daily dosing with Regumate, and therefore use Medroxyprogesterone acetate (Depo-provera) on a weekly or monthly basis - even though McKinnon et. al. have proven that the drug does not maintain pregnancy in mares whose endogenous progesterone secretion has been suppressed! Others observe that they needed to "keep their mare on Regumate throughout pregnancy" as they "checked the mares progesterone levels frequently and found that the levels were 'low'" - this despite the fact that progesterone levels naturally drop to a base-line level by about day 210 of pregnancy! Ovariectomized mares that have been used as embryo transfer recipients successfully carry their pregnancies through to term after cessation of Regumate treatment around day 120-150 of pregnancy, thereby conclusively proving that progesterone secretion by the ovaries plays no part in pregnancy maintenance after that point. One has to wonder therefore about the apparent need of some mare owners to supplement throughout pregnancy. In fairness, there are individual situations that may warrant such supplementation, most commonly associated with an incompetent cervix or impending abortion as a result of placentitis (the Regumate may assist in keeping the cervix more tightly closed in those mares). It has been shown7 that Regumate treatment in late pregnancy (>300 days) fails to elevate total progestagen levels and is probably not of assistance to the 5-alpha pregnane group as a whole that take over the work of progesterone somewhere around 150 days of pregnancy. This group of progestins originates from the feto-placental unit, and not from the mare. The same research suggested that treatment of mares with Regumate in late pregnancy did result in an increase in one type of endogenous progestagen, 5-alpha DHP, but the significance of this, or the possibility of an association with myometrial quiescence, is unclear and requires further research. Similarly, whether the same effect occurred with Regumate treatment earlier in pregnancy was not evaluated. It should be noted that 5-alpha DHP levels while increased after 260 days of pregnancy, are at their highest in late-term pregnancy after 300 days8.

There are arguments - primarily financial - that can be made for Regumate use in pregnant mares, despite an unproven need, and we would be remiss were we not to present those too.

The cost associated with the use of Regumate, even though no need has been proven, can still be less than either the requisite diagnostic work (9-12 progesterone assays - although at the time of writing, stall-side assay kits are available from Hamilton Research Inc. that cost US$84 for a pack of 12 tests - significantly less than a single bottle of Regumate!), or keeping a mare that is intended to produce a foal open for a year. It is these factors above all others that probably lead to excessive use of Regumate, despite the drug not being labeled for use to support pregnancy in alleged "low progesterone mares".

If - and it is a large "if" - one decides that Regumate does need to be used in a mare to support pregnancy, when should one be commencing treatment? All indications suggest that the time when the pregnancy is most at risk is during the early embryonic stage - from shortly after ovulation until 20-30 days after that ovulation. The recommended protocol for treatment with Regumate is to commence treatment about 3½ days after ovulation has been detected. At this time, the cervix is almost closed, and there will be little or no further clearance of post-breeding fluids (starting the Regumate prior to that may result in delayed uterine clearance and subsequent endometritis in susceptible mares). As we are aware that the largest proportion of the pregnancy loss risk period occurs before day 20 post ovulation, it is surprising that some people start their mares on Regumate only after they have been checked in foal at 14-16 days! It may be that once again, these are mares that need the Regumate less than the owners.

To continue our "if" further, if we put the mare onto Regumate, when do we take her off it? If the mare checks not in foal at 15 days, then one can take her off immediately, and she should return to estrus in 3-5 days (note that if she doesn't she may be pregnant!). If she is confirmed in foal, then the first time that is suggested as suitable for taking the mare off Regumate is 40-45 days. By this stage of pregnancy, the mare will have developed secondary corpora lutea (CL's) and will have increased endogenous progesterone levels. The next occasion that one should consider stopping the treatment would be between 120 and 150 days of pregnancy. By then, the fetoplacental unit is secreting 5-alpha pregnanes, and the endogenous progesterone levels would be decreasing naturally. If one desires, one can keep the mare on a little longer, until perhaps 210 days, at which time progesterone levels are naturally base-lined. The last stage one would consider maintaining the mare on Regumate until is 310 days. By then, the mare is probably starting to prepare for foaling, and a fetus delivered at that stage should be viable.

Just to add a little more food for thought, and to raise both awareness and alarm levels a little higher, the potential impact on the human hormonal cycle in the event of accidental absorbency of the drug through the skin should be considered. To confuse the issue more, many people who are aware of this problem make it a practice to only dose their mares while wearing latex gloves. Unfortunately, latex will allow the passage of Regumate through it, although not as easily as skin. Hence, once the Regumate has been spilled on the gloves and soaked through, it is then more easily absorbed by the skin than being able to pass back through the glove. Essentially this practice creates a "Regumate patch" similar to a birth control or nicotine patch for the wearer! It is somewhat puzzling why the paste version of the product, available in Canada, is not available for use in the US. It significantly reduces the potential for accidental human exposure. Next, the use of any progestin in a mare with a uterus of an unknown pathogenic status, or one that is known to have had pathogenic inflammatory issues in the past may stimulate a uterine infection. Progestins suppress uterine immune response something that is indicated on the package insert of Regumate. A final point to ponder is that it has been suggested that use of Regumate in the pregnant mare may actually suppress endogenous secretion of progestins, thereby creating a dependency for supplementation in the mare. Could we in fact be creating Regumate addicts by the use of the drug in the mare? It appears that it may be so.
carolmaginn
Linda!

Darn it! I have been having symptoms that when I told my friend - she told me it sounded like I might be expecting. I told her that there was no way. But she told me all the symptoms sound just like pregnancy! I try to use gloves, but most recently - sometimes I get a little lazy and give the regumate without gloves. I run in the house and wash my hands fast, but by then its too late. One day I was talking to my friend on the cell phone and trying to give the regumate and got it all over my hands. I told her I was sweating and then really tired, and then very sore...etc... etc...

So I realize - its the darn Regumate! Never again without gloves.

Carol

QUOTE (RakisMom @ Nov 28 2006, 09:17 PM)
Regumate....yeah well I can tell you from experience that it should be handled carefully.  I have a difficult time with it even with gloves.  The rubber gloves are poreous and it still can be absorbed through the skin.  It makes me sick like morning sickness when pregnant blink.gif  I have a question about Regumate and stallions.  Yes, I have heard from several trainers who use it on the stallions while showing and have to wonder about future fertility issues.  I DO NOT agree with this abuse and feel it's unethical to use it on a stallion while showing.  Just curious....

Have a wonderful day,
Linda
*
Canadian Kristine
OMG I cannot look at the stuff without gloves

Just drives my system crazy


Kristine
mckulley1
The new bottles have a new top that you just stick your syringe into and draw back the dose, never coming in contact with the fluid.
bartvb
You all seem to pay a lot of money I do it for about the half of the price! I use the bottles of regumate that pig breeders use, same substance different concentration. On these bottles you have a pump system, you pump ones over the food and the job is done. I'm now using it since 7 years and works perfect. I know of several other breeders doing it the same way much longer then me. Several medications in the equine sports are branded equine and therefor made more expensive but besides the concentration its exact same substance.

Regumate is somethimes being used by trainers on stallions who are hard to handle or stallions under saddle who are in competition. Please be adviced that it has a very serious effect on your semen and testicle volume, it regenerate to vertually nothing and the semen cells are no more valuable for fertility. But in most cases ones stopped with the regumate it reverses the effect but can last as much as from 2 till 6 months.
carolmaginn
Bart,

What is the name of the Pig branded Regumate?

Thanks,

Carol
lionsdenfarm
Hey you glove wearers--you are using the wrong type of gloves! You need to get milking gloves (disposable ones). They will not allow the stuff to get through to your hands unless you put a hole in them. Most farm and ranch supply stores sell them, they are called nutrile gloves I think. I can't think straight, it is way too late to be reading now. Anyway, get the right gloves and you won't be sick! Some larger feed mills also carry them and they are cheap.

Tracy
Babette
We used a syringe with a lengthened nib to get it out of the bottle and put it over the food.
jack's
My vet who insiminated my old mare recommended to use Regumate during the first 2 months ! In another way I leased a mare who needed this medecine during the pregnant time long... dry.gif
The price was around 150€ / bottle in a drugstore where veterinarian articles are most cheaper than anywhere...
cheers,
amarie
Babette
Hi

as I know there are different concentrations of this Regumate.
The one for Pigs is more concentrated, you need only the half of the Regumate for horses - in germany.

So please take a look on the concentration before using !
nina c K
You need to be careful with regumate. It can be dangerous not only for pregnancy symptoms, but also have an effect on breast cancer with women. You should better let it do men or use good gloves.
At least that's the text of my bottle said (my vet told me also that the pig regumate was the same as the horse branded, you just have to take the right dose). Anyway, as far as I know, Regumate should not be handled by (especially young) women.

I would anyway prefer to try it without regumate.
Kathrin K.I.M.
It's very interesting to read all these posts... I used Regumate on a mare only once... she had no ovulation though the folicel(?) containing the egg cell was over 5 cm big... after giving her Corulon (should cause ovulation) without success we used Regumate to destroy this persistant folicel meaning a used for 14 days. I gave it to the mare with single use gloves and there was a special closure to screw at the bottle where you could put the syringe in without getting contamined with this medicine.
As I read these posts they sound as if you use Regumate all through the whole pregnancy??? I'm surprised, I never heard of this but I'll go to ask my Vet about it, she's the head of the Gyn department of our Vet. University here in Vienna.
Nancy Bourque/Ibriz Arabians
We had an older mare that was having trouble retaining a pregnancy and we were given
injectible Regumate to use. I don't remember the dosage but I do know that you had to be very careful because long term use can cause neck stiffness and some swelling at the injection site. We were told to give it from date of conception to five months in foal. The vet said at five months along the mare would then be producing enough progesterone to carry the pregnancy but I have known people who gave it up to two weeks before foaling. In any case it worked very well for the mare and she carried her foal successfully to term. The injectible stuff was cheap and the vet said better to have a sore neck for a few months than to loose the foal. I guess I would have had second thoughts about that if I had been riding the marer.

You are right about the gloves. I was told to use the rubber variety that you use for washing dishes. In any case, that was quite a number of years ago and I didn't suffer any symptoms from using it. We have used the liquid form too but I found it very difficult to handle and not get it on your clothes or skin.

My vet told me that it takes several tests to determine whether your mare is lacking progesterone. Apparently the progesterone level fluctuates during the day.
Echo1
Tracy,
Yes, I think the purple nitrile gloves are much better and safer for regumate, they are just as cheap too maybe just a couple pennies more than the latex gloves..

I've heard some also recommend using regumate to get mares prepped and timed for better conception rates when using AI is also very effective. Some say they won't even attempt AI if the mare is not regumated first. Or mares that won't cycle, they put them on regumate, then when they take them off, they have a good heat cycle and it increases their conception rate. Anyone else use regumate this way to increase conception rates?
jack's
We have a test to be made during pregnancy to know about the progesterone rate and so, you can stop or not and do another one later if needed...
amarie
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