This stallion bred by the EAO is often overlooked in his contribution to the Straight Egyptian horse. I feel he was one of the better stallions of his era and bred to a superb mare Bint Moniet El Nefous (Nazeer X Moniet El Nefous) produced excellent offspring. He is a 3/4 brother to Ansata Ibn Halima. Rashad was the foundation stallion for Richard Pritzlaff at RSI and is responsible for producing many quality offspring such as Rasmoniet RSI, Shiko Ibn Shiekh, and other great breeding horses such as Alcibiades.
There aren't many horses remaining that trace exclusivly to Richard's original imports. Most have been outcrossed by now and at best you see Pritzlaff related horses. Or Pritzlaff bred horses which include the Babson lines or Rabanna lines.
I was wondering if those of you out there which have related offspring of the these lines feel about this blood. I'd be interested in hearing your comments.

Hi,

we have a Shaikh Al Badi daughter out of Chafa Monhalima by Ansata El Sherif out of Rodoniet.
Rodoniet is by Umi out of RSI Rara del Sol wich is by Rashad Ibn Nazeer out of Bint Moniet El Nefous.
She has classic type, is an excellent mover and is an exceptional broodmare combinied with Halim Shah stallions!!!
Monhalima was bred to Salaa El Dine last year and is in foal now to Dalia Halim for 2004...

Take care
Christian Kesseböhmer
Al Muntaha Arabians

Foto: © Erwin Escher

There are many different opinions on Rashad Ibn Nazeer.
Please take the following as completely my own thoughts and that this is my absolute personal point of view and any other opinions are accepted from me.
The get Rashad sired with Bint Moniet El Nefous in most cases lost the distinct "Moniet type" and her get by different stallions than Rashad (including from not straightEgyptians) were of superior quality. The Rashad daughters out of Bint Moniet El Nefous were ordinary looking mares who had lost all the charm her dam was famous for and were in no way better conformed than her dam who was according to Judith Forbis one of the best conformed Moniet daughters. I saw at least three Rashad/Bint Moniet daughters at Bentwood and they were not special and were purchased simply because they were daughters of Bint Moniet El Nefous. In thoses times a pedigree was worth amillion dollars. The only sons of the combination of Rashad and Bint Moniet El Nefous who contributed in a small way to the breed were Dymoniet, Alcibiades and Rasmoniet, the latter more comparable to the Moniet type than most of the other siblings.
However, Rashad was a useful riding horse and a beautiful specimen according to those who saw him but he was not compared in type with a Morafic or a Talal.
I visited with Richard Pritzlaff in his later years when he was very old and he was a gentleman par excellence and a horseman through and through but, as most of us, a little bit too focused on his own type of horse. There is an excellent artcicle about Rashad in the international features here on the site ("The Nazeer sons in America Part 1").

I do own a mare that stems from that cross. She is Bint Ismaraha, by The Minstril out of AK Esmaha Moniet, by Ibn Moniet el Nefous out of Bint Bint Moniet, by Rashad Ibn Nazeer out of Bint Moniet el Nefous. A correct, long legged, long necked mare with a marvelous throatlatch, big eyes, not a huge dish but sporting a distinct "desert" look, very good floating movement and outstanding character. She has been a good producer for me, particularly this year's black filly by Borsalino K. She is now in foal to El Nabila B.
I do not know which of her qualities come from Rashad, but I am certainly pretty pleased with her.

I do not feel that Rashad was one of the better stallions of his era. Quite the opposite for me. Do you know what I often think? I wish that the EAO had never sold *Bint Moniet El Nefous, as they would have done a much better job of breeding her than Richard Pritzlaff did. If Moniet was able to produce a superior daughter, what would *Bint Moniet have produced, had she been mated to a better choice in stallions? Was Rashad a good choice for her? NO. After two foals, you would think that the man would have tried something else. The year prior to his famous purchase, Pritzlaff attempted to buy a full brother to Hadban Enzahi, Kamal II (Nazeer x Kamla). What if???? I am sorry if my comments sound harsh but I am not a fan of Richard Pritzlaff, Rabanna, or the Doyle horses.

Here is an article that you might find interesting:

Rancho San Ignacio: A Look Back

Bravo!

I do not agree with some of the opninions that were made but everyone is intitled to there own opinion wether it is a good one or a bad one. I have always enjoyed the pritzlaff horses. I had the honor of owning one of Richards mares and she was just amazing!!! She is a big boddied mare and just a powerhouse of performance and elligance. The Pritzlaff horses were bulit very well and as some may not have been the next beauty queen there personalities, performance aspects, The othere great qualitys that they carried made up for any other things that may have been wrong.

Well, check these out. All I know is what is on that website, but what these RSI horses accomplish is much more valuable than show ribons in my opinion.

http://www.outlawtrail.com/breeding.htm

Christine

Christine,

There are no doubt some outstanding endurance horses on the web page you posted. I have a number of friends who endurance ride and worked for the Hewitt family back in Illinois at Friendship Farms. Tish Hewitt rode the 14 hand stallion Skowreym (Sauwid x Rafeyma by *Raffles) on multiple 50 and 100 mile endurance rides in the 1960's, usually finishing in the 1st or 2nd slot. He was then leased to the Chincoteague Island Fire Department for two years to add outcross blood to the island ponies. Both of Mrs. Hewitt's daughter have completed the Tevis and Old Dominion Rides and one is also on the short list for the Pan-American Games. We bred sound, correct horses at Friendship Farms.......but.....

The problem with the endurance horse market is this. Most people out buying an endurance horse want to spend between $1,500 and $2,500 US dollars for a 4 to 6 year old gelding going under saddle. When one figures the cost of a stud fee, mare care, board, feeding, shots, vaccinations and training in a five year old gelding one is roughly *losing* two to four thousand dollars on the sale of this horse. Unless an endurance horse market appears out of somewhere, it's pretty much a dead end issue. Again, just my opinion.

*Rashad Ibn Nazeer was an outstanding athlete, however he wasn't necessarily a good example of a classic Arabian or a sire (just my opinion). If you notice, the folks who breed the RSI horses used the *Bint Moniet El Nefous daughter, Tatu, on their website page. She is the one NOT sired by *Rashad Ibn Nazeer, she was by John Doyle. And she was also the most beautiful of the *Bint Moniet daughters. As someone said earlier in this thread, part of horse breeding is to produce successive generations of individuals that are improvements over their parents. One breeds for a better horse and from everything I've seen of the RSI horses, few if any of the successive generations were the quality of Richard's original import mares. Imagine for a moment if the Pritzlaff mares had been covered by *Morafic, *Ansata Ibn Halima or *Talal how different the results could have been?

The grey mare pictures above is lovely, one I'd be more then happy to go out to the barn and feed every morning. But, one doesn't see *Rashad in her. She is built like Ansata El Sherif with Shaikh Al Badi's face. A great mare and I can easily see how well she'd cross back into an *Ansata Ibn Halima sire line horse.

Jim Robbins
R-Farm

Hi Jim,
thanks for the kind words about our mare!! I want to show you one result of breeding her to Salaa El Dine by Ansata Halim Shah. Have a look on this filly born in january 2003:


Kindest regards
Christian Kesseböhmer
Al Muntaha Arabians


Foto: © Erwin Escher

Here another one in movement:

Foto: © Erwin Escher

And this one:


Foto: © Erwin Escher

Beautiful filly.

Hi Jim,

I guess I am lucky, being a "backyard owner" not breeding as a business.
I do it for the love of the horse, not with $$$ in mind.
You are right, endurance horses are cheaper. I was just looking at a friend's photo album of the Tevis ride. There is a picture of the winner who apparently was a rescue horse. He also won best condition which is very rare when #1.
It is also a hard sport, I don't think I would do it "to win" as I love my horses too much to risk their lives. Still I admire them they are tremendous athletes.

Christine

Yes Mr. Robbins,
Rashad Ibn Nazeer was not what is today considered a classic Arabian, however as with all stallions, some nick well with some mares and not well with others. In my opinion, the Bint Moniet El Nefous - Rashad Ibn Nazeer cross was largely unsuccessful, however succeeding generation have produced exceptionally well, specifically as broodmares and some notable performance horses. There is in my opinion a mistaken assumption that unless an arabian has an exotically dished face and a long neck it is not typey. Legs be damned.
I do agree that type is a highly personal opinion and thus I cannot and will not discuss type here.
I will say that Pritzlaff horses are very athletic horses with overall correct legs and functional conformation which is necessary for an athlete. I do not mean to indicate that "typey" horses cannot or are not Athletes. Just trying to say that the definituion of type is more of a Western "thing" than Arab.
Personally I disdain a dish unless it is caused by a Jibbah which gives the head an appearance of a dish but does not infringe on breathing capacity as by anatomical limitations is guaranteed by a flat forehead and concave nasal bones.
Just my opinion, but then I love the Pritzlaff horses.

JAL

I would agree with Mr. Robbins that the Pritzlaff horses were not (as a whole) improvements over the original imports in subsequent generations. The best individuals were crosses outside the Pritzlaff breeding nucleus. With little exception, the quality of the individuals remaining in Pritzlaff's later years and after his death were not of notable quality. That is not to say that a superior individual did not crop out here and there over the years of production. This, of course, is just my opinion.

In addition, having seen better photos than what is typically published, I feel that Rashad was a far prettier individual than most photos portray. He was not as photogenic as the others of his time. The Rabanna-line Pritzlaff's tend to stand out superior to the others.

As far as legs, the variation from deer-like spindle legs (typically high % Moniet) to coarse, crooked legs does exist. As a breeding group, I have always wondered what was the most prominent, unique and distinquishing feature of the Pritzlaff horses. I have not found the answer - there seems to be a great deal of variation.

Hi JAL

"however succeeding generation have produced exceptionally well, specifically as broodmares and some notable performance horses. "

I agree. I recently started a study on these lines. I saw some beautifull horses. One that I saw impressed me a lot. Rasmoniet EHAP. A beautifull functionable stallion and he has done well in the showring. Another stallion is Sonyet. (SonietasSolar x Alsonia RSI)Full brother and sister mating. Again a breathtaking stallion.

"Personally I disdain a dish unless it is caused by a Jibbah which gives the head an appearance of a dish but does not infringe on breathing capacity as by anatomical limitations is guaranteed by a flat forehead and concave nasal bones."

BRAVO !!!!!!

PL

A bit off topic, but there is no scientific research in Europe that comes to the conclusion that a concave nasal bone could have an negative effect on breathing capacity. Perhaps some people jump to that conclusion but there is no prove for that so far. The breathing capacity of 50 Arabian horses was reserched and the "dish" or the "profile" obviously had no effect on it but their age, training level and overall fitness.

Gosh, I just just imagine if someone had made the negative comments about Al Adeed in a similar fashion to the negative comments that were made by Ralph about Rashad! Ralph would be having a fit. Sorry Ralph, you appear to have a very closed mind and a very big opinion that all of us actually care what you like or dislike. Al Adeed has very bad front legs but dare anyone say this!

Oh, it was said very often and it is no secret his frontlegs are not the very best but the whole horse is more than just frontlegs an dthe whole picture is a picture of majestic excellence. Were Rashad's legs really better?

Christian,

The Salah El Dine filly is lovely, linebreeding the *Ansata Ibn Halima and *Ansata Bint Bukra has made for a very nice foal! I went to your web site and was equally impressed with Dalia Halim. He looks to be a quite spectacular stallion with an impressive show record. Good luck with your breeding program you appear to be off to a wonderful start.

all the best,
Jim

Guest Christine,

I am also a 'backyard' breeder and no where does money figure into breeding horses for me. Unless it is going out instead of coming in ;-) . That old adage that the "quickest way to make a small fortune in horses is to start with a large one" I believe holds true universally.

I think the endurance horse you are talking about is Crystals Charm? He won the Tevis Haggin Cup in 1999, several other prestigious rides and a gold medal in the Pan American Endurance Championships in 2001. He's the type of horse any rider would like to 'rescue' and bring home.

Jim Robbins
R-Farm

Reluctant2,

I've given a response to your post quite a bit of thought and went back and looked at old photographs and records I have on the Pritzlaff horses and their contributions. What strikes me the most is you readily admit that "In my opinion, the Bint Moniet El Nefous - Rashad Ibn Nazeer cross was largely unsuccessful" and yet follow it up by saying "however succeeding generation have produced exceptionally well, specifically as broodmares and some notable performance horses."

The above statements confuse me. *Rashad Ibn Nazeer sired 35 foals, of which 28 bred on. Of those 28, 13 (or nearly 50%) were out of *Bint Moniet El Nefous. So, if this was a largely unsuccessful cross, then right off the bat almost 50% of the *Rashad offspring were unsuccessful. Mr. Pritzlaff bred about 242 foals, give or take. Of those, roughly 75% of the horses he bred carry at least one cross to *Rashad/*Bint Moniet, and probably 5/8 of the horses he bred carry 2 crosses. I didn't look up every horse, but a good 50% of the horses Pritzlaff bred carried multiple crosses to *Rashad and *Bint Moniet. So, if one is starting off with an unsuccessful cross, how can one take the cross, line breed it and come up with something great?

The crosses that I have seen that are great from this breeding, and the term great is not measured solely by show ring success but by breeding barn success, have *Bint Moniet El Nefous in the mare line with only one cross to *Rashad Ibn Nazeer and that is usually 3 or 4 generations back. Which to my thinking plays an extremely minor part on the successful horses that contain any *Rashad. Usually these horses also contain very 'close up' in their pedigrees large infusions of The Egyptian Prince, *Ibn Moniet El Nefous, Ruminaja Ali, Shakh Al Badi, *Ansata Ibn Halima or Imperial Imdal. I would tend to give credit in the pedigree of a horse that was 25% The Egyptian Prince and 6 1/4% *Rashad Ibn Nazeer more to the Egyptian Prince. The same as a horse that is 50% Imperial Imdal and 6 1/4% *Rashad. Again, just my opinion.

I will take exception that "type" is more of a western thing then Arab. The middle east, Europe and Russia have dictated what "type" is popular in America for the hundred years we've been breeding horses here. Starting with the early Crabbet importation's of Brown, Kellogg and Selby up through the Babson imports and later those imports of the Marshalls, Lasma, the Forbes and numerous other breeders American "type" tends to be dictated by whatever is popular in the rest of the world at that time. The stallions *Raffles, *Raseyn, *Fadl, *Ansata Ibn Halima, *Morafic, *El Shaklan, *Jamilll, *Carmargue, *Padron, et all are European/Middle Eastern horses and the direct progenitors of what one sees as American 'type' today.

Jim Robbins
R-Farm

Well, I think it depends on how do you define "successful". Most of the Rashad/Bint Moniet cross horses looked poor in type. The daughters looked like carbon copies of their sire and if someone thrives for beauty than this cross was indeed "unsuccessful" in most cases. Bint Moniet had inherited the type of her dam and the better conformation of Nazeer, she needed no "improvement" whatsoever by a stallion like Rashad who was inferior in type and not better or complementary in conformation. So for many it was a "loss" that Mr Pritzlaff was not more open-minded to cross her with other than his own stallions that obviously didn't fit very well. The above mentioned Rasmoniet was better in type than the others, that's true, but he wasn't a superior animal, he was rather small and reminded me on horses like Soufian or Fakher El Din - pretty chestnut ones who looked at first glance very "Moniet" in type but without the structure, class and style of the real great ones of that line. Alcibiades was a special one, his type was a good combination of the two parents; not extreme in any way but okay.

Thanks Dennis for posting your opinion...I enjoyed reading your opinion, as I always do. Moniet El Nefous has been a celebrated mare, in most everything written about her, the reader is always left with a favorable impression of the mare. She was beautiful, however, conformationally, she had some flaws. That is why I love her daughter, *Bint Moniet El Nefous so much and why I say that Moniet produced a daughter superior to herself. *Bint Moniet retained the awesome beauty of her dam, while embodying superior conformation to what her dam had. I don't believe that *Bint Moniet ever foaled a superior horse to herself, something that she genetically could have done, IF SHE HAD BEEN BRED TO A STALLION THAT WAS BETTER SUITED TO HER GENOTYPICALLY AND PHENOTYPICALLY. *Rashad, after two breedings, clearly demonstrated that he was not the match for *Bint. However, the only way to incorporate *Bint in a breeding program today, is to also incorporate the blood of *Rashad. I feel that it is a risk to incorporate Pritzlaff breeding because of the chance that a resulting foal may embody more of the *Rashad type than the *Bint Moniet type. With that said, there is a stallion named Sonyet, who, athough he seems to be strong in the *Rashad look, he is quite lovely. Despite the *Rashad, I really like this horse. He is a result of a full brother to sister mating and traces in all four lines to *Bint. How do you incorporate this rich source of *Bint blood without risking *Rashad? You choose mares that do not have any Kuhaylan Rodan blood in their pedigree, for starters. And if you have a shorter, chunkier mare...Sonyet would really add a little more s-t-r-e-t-c-h, drying this mare out.

Do we discount the Pritzlaff lines? No, that is not what I am saying at all. Pritzlaff imported some phenomenal horses from Egypt. And if you look at some of the horses that have been bred recently, using Pritzlaff as one of the foundations, the bloodlines can be rewarding. However, you really need to pay attention when using this blood and realize that you can't cross this blood with just anything. I have had very serious conversations with long-time breeders regarding the Pritzlaff blood, since it is the only way to get to *Bint. So, that is why I am perplexed why anyone would consider me to be narrow minded. Most anyone on this planet breeding Egyptian Arabian Horses understands that there is a risk in using the blood of *Rashad.

I like what Jim said about contemporary horses who have Pritzlaff blood being also influenced by the other horses in the pedigree. And isn't that what we all want? To use lines that complement each other?

When this thread was started, it asked for opinions on *Rashad and I offered mine. Whether you agree with me or not, is not important. Each person has to develop their own likes and dislikes, just as I did over many years, reading, talking, listening, and visiting. No one should ever adopt any of the opinions that are offered here on this forum as "gospel". The opinions are like "guides" to help you in navigating the overwhelming amount of information on Egyptian Arabian Horses. Use the opinions to direct you in forming your own opinion about the horses you like. This thread never asked for opinions on Al Aadeed. I don't understand why his name was thrown into this conversation. That was unfair and just another attempt to "bad mouth" this horse. I also don't understand why anyone would try to embarrass anyone for sharing their opinion. This is a public forum where everyone's views are welcome. That is the educational part of this forum. If people are "chastised" for sharing their opinions then eventually, no one will share them, because it is not worth the hassle or aggravation. And then the educational features will cease. On a personal issue, when a person already feels bad, and additional jabs make a person feel worse. And I don't say this for anyone's sympathy, just want to point out decent human behavior. When we shoot back at someone in a nasty way, we never know the circumstances that our target may be facing at that moment.

And as for the color yellow being "my color", well, I sign with my name and not with an anonymous user ID. As a man, one of the biggest insults that I can ever receive is to be called a "coward". Walk in my shoes "Chick", you may feel differently. I don't make insults, protected by a name that hides my real identity. I don't always make the right decisions nor do I always use discretion in what I post but if there is one thing that no one can ever take away from me is my honesty. And I share that willingly here. Most anyone who really knows me, knows that I am honest.

Over the years that I have visited this forum, I have read and have developed an eye for consistency in the posts of people who also congregate here. Dennis and Jim, thank you for sharing your opinions. I learn much from what you write and you push me out of my "comfort zone" and cause me to rethink and question many of the beliefs that I have held dearly, and sometimes, realize that I had gotten something all wrong! I have to tell you both that whenever I see your names, I immediately go to your posts because of the wealth of information, wisdom, and personal insight that you guys write into your posts.

Anyway "'nuff said." Don't want to give any more "muscle" to Sanctimonious". And if anyone else is like me (I had to look up the meaning of the word) this is the definition:

Feigning piety or righteousness: “a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain).

Dearest Ralph,

While I humbly disagree with how you describe Rashad, I do respect your feelings and opinions. I agree with your last post in the respect that one human being should have for another. It is okay to disagree.

Rashad and Bint Moniet El Nefous are half brother and sister and then some. THey were both sired by Nazeer. The female lines are also related. Both Yashmak and Moniet El NEfous's mother Wanisa are both daughters of Sheikh EL Arab.

We all know the significance and how proven this cross was. (The Sheikh El Arab daughters bred to Nazeer!! ) Both Nazeer and Sheikh El Arab are sons of Mansour.

Sheikh El Arab and Nazeer are both sons of Mansour. HE IS A KEY FACTOR in the Pritzlaff horses since the remaining Pritzlaff horses show the highest percentage of Mansour blood in existance today.

I think the Rashad blood is often misunderstood. He was not the most photogenic horse and I think he was valuable in many ways. He was one of the highest percentage of Abbas Pasha blood in all Nazeer sons. The Pritzlaff horses are great athletes. They are not necessarily beauty queens, but honestly I feel they are the best outcross for the Ansata horses and the Ibn Rabdan horses since they are pure and free from questionable blood with the exception of *Bint Nefisa.

I think Rashad had great conformation and the idea he had bad legs is nonsense. I can tell you from experience of owning linebred Rashad horses they have far better legs and hooves than 90% of the horses out there.

Rashad was a great horse in my opinion. Bint Moniet El Nefous was unmatchable. They had shared genetics and were a pedigree match. I do not feel he took away from this mare. I feel he only was a medium who maintained this blood to the highest degree. IF a breeder understands how genetics really work, he would also understand that it is very very possible to tap into this Bint Moniet El Nefous blood through the Pritzlaff horses and bring it to the surface rather easily regardless of the Sire line Rashad.

IF you were to really study the pedigrees from Von Standzner and the EAO of the time of these horses, it draws a clear and meaningful picture of pedigrees that show purpose and method. THere is more than initially meets the eye here.

The Pure Pritzlaff bred horses from the original imports of 1958 to the US, who are alive today, have some of the highest percentage of 'original' blood such as Nazeer, Mansour, Sheikh EL Arab, Farida, Moniet El Nefous left in existance. If one fails to see this because they are a victim of 'others opinions' saying Rashad was not pretty enough, I regrettably say they have missed the boat of opportunity this group has to offer to modern day breeding.
Most standing pedigrees today are so far from this magnificent blood I often ask why these breeders do not recognize the best crosses they can make is to go back to these originals as opposed to stepping outside the realm of purity.

Yes, purity a hot and loaded word I agree. It has meaning to different degrees and what is felt in our hearts as pure. I do not ever intend to offend someone's opinion on the subject of purity. Forgive me if I do. But I must say without hesitation, as a breeder and perpetual student of pedigrees, I recommend time and time again, it is far better to breed to the living ambassadors of this breed then to step outside these 'original families' and into the questionable or unproven lines unless you see the true merit or extreme necessity in the bloodlines used for outcross. SO for the sake of argument, let's skip purity and talk facts....

There is a clear and definate use and need for this blood today.

I urge you to look deeper in these pedigrees. Compare the pedigree of Yashmak, the mother of Rashad to that of Moniet El Nefous and her dam Wanisa. We already see the sire line match of Rashad (Nazeer-Mansour) and Bint Moniet El Nefous (Nazeer-Mansour)..
Now compare the female lines Yashmak (mother of Rashad) and Moniet El Nefous 's mother - Wanisa. It shows a very clear picture of what was done. VERY traditional type Bedouin breeding philosophies. Both daughters of Sheikh El Arab. Rashad and Bint Moniet El Nefous are very much a perfect match in genotype and pedigree. Not only are they half brother and sister but the female lines are daughters of Sheikh El Arab.

Was not the Nazeer to Sheikh EL Arab daughters the best horses from the EAO at that time??? Was not Mansour the signifact and key stallion of this era?? Again, I ask you to look BEYOND Rashad and see how this all came to be and why they are so well suited one for another.

While I do respect you opinion on what you find as pretty in a horse and may not like Rashad because he didn't look like Talal, to say he is not a genotype or pedigree match for Bint Moniet El Nefous is FALSE> THey are more than Half brother and Sister through Nazeer, but the female lines of Yashmak and Wanisa are also half sister's and daughters of Sheikh EL Arab. Both Nazeer and Sheikh EL Arab are half brothers through Mansour. MY goodness, any closer and they would be inbred, instead we have generations of by far the most undisputed line ever to be bred in Straight Egyptian history linebreeding. Mansour, Nazeer, and Sheikh El Arab.

No sir, with all due respect, you are false in your statement to say they did not match in genotype or pedigree, Rashad and Bint Moniet El Nefous is a match.

It's all very intresting. I sometimes find it difficult to sepeate fact from opinion. But in this case I believe it is a fact that Rashad Ibn Nazeer and Bint Moniet El Nefous were a perfect match in pedigree. I think it is your opinion that you didn't like Rashad. That sir, I certainly respect. I understand he may not be your cup of tea and I cannot argue that at all. To each his own.

Best wishes Ralph and my sincere condolences to you for the loss of your father. My heart and prayers go out to you. I look forward to talking with you more in the future.

Hi Kelly:

Great post, enjoyed it.

Yes, as you explained, Wanisa and Yashmak are Sheikh El Arab daughters. However, they are influenced more by their dam lines, than their sire lines. Yashmak is a daughter of Bint Rissala, tracing to Rodania while Wanisa is a daughter of Medallela, tracing to Om Dalal. Even though these mares have common ground through their sire, they are going to be vastly different through their female lines. One is a Saklawiyah (Wanisa), the other a Kuhaylah (Yashmak). I believe they are more different than similar and definitely, there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between *Rashad and *Bint, like night and day. They are not the same horses. If there was a lot of similarity between them, as suggested by their pedigrees, there would have been more predictability in the offspring that these two produced. *Bint was a very typey mare, her resulting offspring were not. I think the closest that her offspring came to her type was found in Rasmoniet but still, Rasmoniet did not follow the same pattern of improvement, as seen between Moniet and *Bint. Rasmoniet was not "dramatic" in his looks as *Bint was dramatic in her looks. *Bint retained the extreme type while improving conformationally over her dam.Glad to talk with you and better yet, glad to echange opinions with you and learn.

Since we are sort of, indirectly, on the subject of Moniet blood. Can anyone tell me how much Moniet blood was retained by the EAO? Seems like much of that blood was sold off. If this was such valuable blood, why did they let so much of it go? The cross that the EAO retained of Moniet blood was offspring by Sid Abouhom. Any thoughts?


Ansata Bint Mabrouka
Morafic
Soufian
Ibn Moniet El Nefous
Fakher El Din

What about Bint Bint Moniet, and Moniet El Sharaf?
Can anybody comment on them?

Christine

Mr Robbins,
by unsuccessful I was merely pointing out that the cross did not produce predictably. In Effect, neither dam nor sire predictably were reproduced. However, succeeding generations, when bred correctly did produce extremely well, again, just my opinion and in a small way borne out by the very horses right here with me. Since we do own a Stallion of 100% Pritzlaff breeding and without Bint Moniet El Nefous in his pedigree. Rashad, Bint Dahma and Bint El Bataa.
Echo1 is correct, when used on Halima blood and Babson breeding this stallion produces better than himself, as well as better than the mare. What is very interesting is that when used on heavily BMEN bred mares (Sara Moniel) he also removes the narrow front end, the lower set-on neck and shortens the back . In effect I can see what I preach...again though, be aware, that is just a personal opinion. Mr Robbins, I gladly take a back seat to your vast experience.
Secondly, I was referring to Arabs of the 18th and 19th century , not what is currently the fad in the Middle East since it mirrors the US show arena. In actuality I am not aware of an Asil or AlKhamsa breeding program anywhere in the ME excepting perhaps Bahrain. They generally buy the prettiest, (in their own opinion of course) regardless of bloodline.
I would have thought since they are so caught up with the traditional definition of Asil in comparison to Kadish they would be more careful to reintroduce back into Arabia those horses which are reasonably presumed to trace back to their desert. Apparently they are no so concerned, makes one ask the question, "why should we"?.
Yes exchange of opinions is ultimately educational if one keeps in mind that opinions are often clouded by personal prejudices and stereotypes. While there is always some truth it is often not the total truth.
Regards,
JAL
Joseph A Linzner
lest there be mention of cowardice.

Again, I think we must be careful as to what is opinion, rumor or fact. The simple word retained for example which you chose to use can also be substitued for 'passed over'. Could also be substituted for 'put into safekeeping' or sold to someone who has the knowledge or means to carry on with what Von Szandtner started but was unable to finish due to his health. It is all opinion. Retained and passed over are opinions. Moniet was Von Szandtner's 'favorite' mare and the best "in his opinion'.

"IF it was so good, why did they let it go?" You asked. When looking at what transpired during the years of 1952 when the Inshass herd was dispersed and then the EAO formed into the RAS and Von Szandtner's health one must keep up. IT was not that simple. There were other reasons things happened. I read an article in AHW years back that stated the inclusion of the Inshass herd into the EAO herd was done in part for economic reasons. Who knows for certain? With the dispersal of the Inshass group, Von Szandtner's health forcing him to leave. 1955-56-57-58-59 there was alot going on and some horses were moved to Richards at Raswans and Von Szandtner's recommendation in 1958 this we know as it was documented by all three men. Read the history books as to what happened at that time.

It is not a clear picture to paint to say, the best were kept and the horses of less merit were sold. Any of your bigger farms will admit to selling the best because buyers sometimes only want the best. Sometimes they have to sell the best for financial reasons. Who knows for certain? But to simply say if it was so good why not was it kept for the RAS. Unfortuantely it does not always work that way.

Was anything ever meant to be retained?? Was this again another end to a great stud as we saw when King Farouk left the Inshass group?? Was this again another end to a great stud as we saw with the horses of Abbas Pasha? Who knows?? Certainly there are many VERY FINE horses in many countries. MANY GREAT horses stayed at the EAO and some left.

To simply say 'retained' for breeding is speculative. Sometimes there are factors such as health, death, or even political or economic factors that come into play.

Moniet was used to Sid Abouhom. This is true. Does Ibn Moniet El Nefous look anything like Moniet El Nefous??? Does Ansata Bint Mabrouka?? Whether you see Moniet or not in these horses, it is important to know they do carry this blood. JUST as much as the Pritzlaff horses do.

Soufian was a representation of Moniet El Nefous and a good match to this blood with Alaa El Din and Moniet El Nefous. The Moniet El Nefous look did come through and the Alaa El Din blood (By Nazeer and Kateefa) were a continuous match and linebreeding.

Fakher El Din was also exemplary of Moniet El Nefous. He carried the look of his mother and was able to pass it on to his offspring.

Your questions raise more questions with me too. Maybe somebody else out there has better answers than I? I would be interested in hearing more about this time in history.

Dear Ralph,

I agree with what you are saying that the tail female line does change the whole picuture. I too wish there were more Moniet El Nefous options out there as well. You raised valid points in your reply. I think part of it was the when the EAO and Von Szandtner came in there were 'many' families of horses used. Many strains as well. To keep them all seperated would be difficult. Mansour tied many of these groups together initially and then Sid Abouhom came into play.

::ENG [CODE]184139
Echo 1
The thought that General Von Szandtner would assemble a group of horses together in America is Wounderful.
He would be setting up the future stock for outcrosses to what he could see would develop for Egyptian breeding.
These horses then would cross back extremely well on the outcrosses developed there.
Were this to be true. He would have been certain that these horses were as true to the origional foundational stock of Egypt as is possible.
Reading over the information written about these horses leads me to conclude this probability.
Notice how well the Pritzlaff horses proform in endurance? General Von Szandtner knew that America wanted.
Super genetics as well as the ability to proform. American breeders of that time we're interested in the Grey horses. Not a one that the General sold Mr. Pritzlaff were of that color.

So today if you see a grey Pritzlaff horse it had other influences.
These influences were from other Pritzlaff horses that we're not imported by the 1958 group.

The theory is very concievable that General Von Szandtner wanted the two
groups to match up.
When he would have heard of the 1959 Ansata importion. He would have concluded that they finally will get together.
Yet personality differences kept the groups from breeding together except in a few cases. Those horses than represented themselves well. So it's a bit surprising that more of these matches were not made?
Interesting to see History develop. People and Breeders seldom learn from History. So that past mistakes are not repeated. History is so important to these horses. So study all you can.
Berk

Bint Fa Saloul (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Fa Saloul)
South African import
Interesting pedigree
Fa Saloul's dam Faarecho is Babson and her sire Rafaar RSI are half Babson. His dam is RSI Rara Delsol (Rashad Ibn Nazeer x Bint Moniet El Nefous), and this was put to Ibn Moniet El Nefous
Mariks

Would'nt it be sad..... if everybody like the same horses ????

I love my stallion ( by Rasmoniet RSI )

From the holy HIJAZ
In the lands of origin … THE ARABIAN PENINSULA

I’m saying hello to the entire lovers of our noble creature which is…

THE ARABIAN HORSE

In our history the ancient Arabs use to consider their horses as a part of the family, which is very obvious in their poetries.
They use to track their horses pedigrees very carefully to maintain their nobility, for that purpose they may either keep their mares for years with out breeding or to travel to very long distances, just to find stallion which suites the nobility & the purity of their mares.
They don’t accept to breed them to un-certified & unwell known stallion by the tribe sheikhs & their pedigrees researcher which is titled (NASSAB).
Just to protect their horses generations, as they use to do for themselves & generations.
That’s why the Arabian horses are very solid & endurable.
But that doesn’t mean they were ignoring the beauty of the horse …absolutely no.
They use to judge the horses far better than the current judges paying more concentration on each detail.
They described the horse in very unique way in their poetries as Imro Al qais, Antar Ibn Shaddad & many others ( most of them are sheikhs or sons of sheikhs).
That’s why I admire these blood lines, since their ancestral history is documented with out any exception.

Best regards,
Mohammed

Dear Moahmmed

I like what you are posting very much.

I knew rashad Ibn Nazeer in the flesh. I always liked him. He did enherite his dam's croup, and will not be the type preferred nowadays in the halter classes, just the same was an oustanding athlete, a Grand Prix Dressage horse who looked magnificent under saddle.

He also sired champions, among which is shiko Ibn Sheikh, the US Top Ten Bin Bint Moniet (1972) etc.

One of his sons "Tibor the General" (1959)- non Se (although I think should be ) was a brilliant bay. Cristelot Hansen, our Canadian Olympic Dressage rider trained him in Canada for some time, while I was present. this was truly a magnificent Arabian Stallion, very kind and talented. His dam is "Rabanna"
over which much has been debated, an excellent mare and producer.

Have a nice day
Hansi

Thank you Hansi

Really they use to consider their horses as diamonds, if you have valuable diamond which is in your family since several generations & you want to put it in necklace, will you add some fake diamonds to complete the shape & to make it looks better?
ofcourse NO!
Even if it is looking better than your real diamond,
why?
Simply because it is FAKE.
That is the nobility of the Arab horses…
I read story in one of the Arabian books which is talking about the Arabian horses history:
A Bedouin man offered an Arabian mare for sale with very low price & someone came to buy that mare but he asked him about the document ,the Bedouin told him in sad voice, this is not documented,
The buyer said but it’s very obvious, she is saklawiah but I’m not sure if S.Gedraniah or some thing else.
The man strictly replied: this mare was taken from her owner during the war with his tribe & I don’t have any documents so take her or just keep her.
(Please ignore the part of the war for stealing in this story because it’s not acceptable from the Islamic point of view)
but look how he is feeling the responsibility? Simply he can give him a fake document & both of them will be happy to get what he wants but he didn’t.

That’s why we still have the purebred Arabians.

Regards,
Mohammed

Dear Mohammed,

I am enchanted any time in this forum, we have the chance to read postings like the last
you posted under this topic, ''teaching'' us the strong connection that the Arabian Horse
breed has with the Islamic History, Culture and Traditions. It makes me realize more
and more, that any time we are talking (writing) of Arabian Horses, we are dealing with
an important ''piece of history'' with a true living treasure and the same thought makes
me feel extremely grateful to all of you, dedicated breeders, worldwide, who got
the very important and difficult mission to preserve in its integrity and purity this
''living treasures'' .

Thanks and have a nice day,

Paola

Hello Mohammed,

What I see in your story is the true beauty of these horses lies not in their flesh alone, but in their history and what they represent to our beliefs?

If we want to breed as the Bedou did then we must hold true to the same values and codes of responsibility. We should strive to keep the horses history intact through proper documentation. Would you suggest that we must do so with a degree of personal conviction as we saw with the Bedouin tribes? IF a horse is not documentable, it leads me to believe there was questions at some point., since according to what you say, if there were documents, it would be an honor to pass them along as well as with their recited 'oral' pedigree?

Hello Forum!I have been absent for a bit and jumped on to pay my respects to Makhsous only to start on this thread.All I wish to say here is that I respect eveyone's likes and dislikes and I wish some didn't feel the need to tear a horse down because it doesn't fit their "taste".Owning and breeding these animals is just that,a matter of taste and what an individual likes or cares for in that animal-nothing more and nothing less in my opinion.I feel blessed to have the ability own such a beautiful,ancient and sacred creature and feel even more blessed to have been introduced to so many wonderful people......Thank you Mohammed for putting things in perspective...

With utmost respect mohammed,
so are we to understand that arabs kept documents of all their horses. For some reason I have always understood that their history was an oral one, kept by learned wise men and that is why no documents are available into ancient times. The fact that documentation did not exist means only that it was not written or does it , like echo intimates, constitute a lack of purity. I see here, another attempt to start yet again a harangue on the purity of particular horses. Of that I am sad but please Sir, can you clear up such issues for us from the Arab viewpoint.

with kindest respectful regards,

Yussuf (joe)

Joe, All
I think what my friend Mhd is saying is that there should be no substantial question mark in the link of history of a particular horse. It doesn’t particularly have to be in writing. Since, in those days, a mans word was as good as gold. For example since the horses and owners were well known among the tribes of a certain area, if there was an owner with questionable character (i.e. was known to have lied or stole before) in the history of the horse that horse might not qualify as pure.
There was also specific men who could test a horse for purity. I remember reading once that one of the Arab Caliphs (leaders) received many horses claimed to be pure Arabians, he then asked his advisor (Arab horse expert) to test the horses and eliminate any that is not pure. One of the tests included watching the way the horses ate and drank from a small plate placed on the ground.
The Arabs had certain criteria and systems in place not only to preserve the purity of their horses but mainly the purity of their religion from change or fowl play. Just to illustrate the sincerity of this conviction although it may seem a little extreme taken out of its original context. The true story goes that one of the Muslim scholars who gathered the sayings of God's Messenger(Mohammed Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him who was sent to all mankind) and documented them about 1400 years ago, this scholar traveled to the various Arab lands after the death of God's Messenger (P&BA) to document the sayings(of God's Messenger) from the companions of the Prophet (P&BA). After a one week journey he found the man and he saw the man asking his horse to come to him by extending his hand and pretending he had a treat for the horse in it (lying to the horse as his hand was empty). The scholar than turned back and headed home without asking the man of what he knows. This is because this mans character did not meet the strict criteria the scholar had for this project.
I hope this demonstates a little of the kind of men that once existed and are credited with the preservation of our treasures.
I am very appriciative of them as well as the good people all over the world today who carry on this task with similar sincerity and honesty.
This horse is blessed by God.
Sincerely,
Jamal

FROM THE HOLY LANDS OF AL HIJAZ

My kindest greetings to the entire forum


Kelly

At that time (more than 1400 years back) there was some written documents from the tribe’s sheikhs with stamp (with engraved name on the ring) based on the oral or sometimes written confirmation of the ancestral history expert (AL NASSAB), but let me explain something, in those days they use to consider their oral commitment as document because they consider the word of honor as the honor was the principle of their lives & deaths. Hence, it was shameful on the will known Arab sheikhs to issue fake pedigree either orally or written & if he did he will be outcasted & lose his face.
The last story I have mentioned about the Bedouin & the buyer recently happened (about 100 years back).

Lisa
Thank you

Yusuf
my words doesn’t carry the meaning of purity of some horses excluding others & its not my intention, I really I consider the purity of the Arabian horses entirely but what I want to say that these horses bloodline is the most available with less question marks on their pedigrees & well known sources like Abbas Pasha, Ali Pasha, Blunts i.e.

Jamal
Thank you for your valuable addition & explanations.

Best regards to all of you,
Mohammed

To All,

People, think about all the documented stories, photographs, sayings of the Arabian horse that originate NOT from the West, but from the East. Where does the Arabian horse we all love so much originate from? Never forget that we are all mere followers of what the old have created through many centuries of hard struggle and battle to survive.

While writing this, I have a photograph in my mind of the old bedouin tent, where the master lets his Arabian mare sleep amongst his own kind. That picture tells me much more of the old way of handling and breeding the Arabian horse. In those days, indeed a word was a word, no writing or paper could ever supplement a word in those days.

This is just no longer possible. You should ask yourself why this is so and who is really responsible for the way things are nowadays. It is not the people from the East I tell you. I've have read and have had confirmed that many breeders on the Peninsula still have their stallions available for stud WITHOUT breeding fee. This is as it was done in the old days.

We have learned alot from the people of the old times, we have left their path though and all I can say is I hope we will find it again before it is too late. I will have a look for that photo in my books and post it here. It gives alot of food for thought and reflection.

Now you can all shoot me for expressing my thoughts and feelings. I can't wait.

Best regards,
Stephanie

Good Day Mohammed,

Yes, how true these words of yours are!! It was with deep religious conviction, beliefs and honor they were bred, and kept. They stood as a testimony to their people. This is a chain that cannot be broken.

Stephanie,

It is not impossible, as with the Lord all things are possible. There are some that go directly to these original horses Mohammed speaks of that are 100% unquestionable.

Let us not confuse 1400 years ago with 100 years ago or 50 years ago.

Hi Echo1,

I'm not confusing time, I'm just reflecting on how it actually has changed and what a pity some changes have occurred.

Indeed everything is possible, many people make it seem impossible though. So much paperwork has to be filled in for registry these days, sometimes quite confusing for new breeders or even experienced ones. I'm happy some people do go back to the old, as it brings alot more back then just a good Arabian. I was reflecting on the shame so much has changed, and I think you do agree, some are not for the better of the breed. <_<

That is how I see it. But keep the discussion going, this is at least one of the more interesting, if not the most, running at the moment. I learn alot just from reading all these posts.

Best regards,
Stephanie

Echo, will you please give us some quotes from Mohammed that speak of 100% unquestionable? I'm not familiar with these.

Mutlak

Echo, on consideration maybe I misunderstand. I believed that you were speaking of the prophet Mohammed, but maybe you referred to the poster Mohammed? If so, no need to provide quotes. I was looking for quotes from the Koran.

Mutlak

Thank You Jamal, Mohammed, Stephanie,

I too enjoy these posts by True lovers of this blessed creature we know as the Arabian Horse. I find it deplorable that we, as westerners are so besotted with supposed experts (Westerners) that we endeavor to destroy when we should actually be attempting to praise and nurture the treasure so long protected by the Bedouins, Scheichs, Paschas.
It is not constructive to dwell on rumors, specifically when discounted by an Eastern historian via an accusal of impropriety and inexpert research. Yet, it continues and continues without let-up.
However, your contributions are music to my ears. It is fascinating to hear viewpoints as expressed by individuals with historic as well as personal experience steeped in Arabian Lore as taught by native educators.
No-one can ever truly understand the co-evolvement of the horse and the Bedouin, one dependent on the other.
I truly appreciate your contribution and Please keep your contributions coming.
My Highest Regards
JAL

Well , I don,t know any quotes from the Koran or anything, but a man in hollywood once said....That a verbal contract is only as good as the paper its written on........