Hi everybody

I would like to know if there are any breeders that are trying to breed "pure in strain" horses, (as far as possible) especially Dahman Shahwan?


Thanks
P.L.

Nasiri:

How unusual to find this post. Last night, I was talking with a good friend, regarding Raswan's writings. We were discussing the following:


A dramatic statement to make and the reason I was particularly struck by this quote of Raswan's is because the majority of Egyptian Arabian Horses today have many strains represented within their pedigree. Even if a horse is Dahman by tail female line, the horse may look like a Kuhaylan, or even a Saklawi horse, depending on which strain, influences the pedigree.

One time, Judi Forbis took 3 photos of 3 Kuhaylan Jellabi Stallions: Fadl Dan, Prince Fa Moniet and Mohummed Saddan. Fadl Dan embodied the look that most people expect for a Kuhaylan horse. Prince Fa looked more like a Saklawi and Mohummed Saddan looked like a Dahman. Go figure.

If I had to pick one strain that I really, really liked it would be the Dahmans. Only because of their consistently good disposition. The Dahmans make terrific friends. I just love them.

I am not sure if anyone is purposely breeding towards a pure-in-the-strain Dahman, outside of the Babson community. That would be my first guess. To check with the Babson breeders and particularly anyone who is following Walter Schimanski's program, as Walter loved the Dahmans dearly and was breeding along these lines.

Maybe a year ago, I was treated to a very big event. I finally got to meet the great Babson Dahman stallion, Mah Deluque. He was just awesome, even in old age. Regrettably, this grand horse is no longer alive, as he was put down earlier this year. It was amazing to me the similarity he had with the *Ansata Ibn Halimas. And his disposition? He was the sweetest horse. I loved him.

Hope I have helped you somewhat and I hope that my post generates more discussions in which everyone's knowledge will prosper.

Ralph

Nasiri,

I have bred one mare pure in the strain and she herself was pure in the strain...WN Sharazada whose sire was a Seglawi al Abd via *Wadduda (Davenport) and she herself is Seglawi al Abd via Zulima (Spain) and bred her to *Carmargue, a Seglawi Jedran ( Blunt import Bint Helwa). The goal is to eventually have every dam line in the fifth generation be a variant of Seglawi if not uniform.

Ralph,

The Kuhailan Jellaby's tracing to *Negma here in the US have been established as being of the same tail-female as Bint Helwa, a Seglawi Jedran from Abbas Pasha stock via mitochondrial DNA testing...perhaps accounting for the Seglawi look of the one. This was announced at the Australian WAHO convention by Michael Bowling some years ago. My mare, M A Carmalana who is of this ilk, when bred to *Rushan has had 2 babies with a distinctly Seglawi look. Interestingly, I think it was at the same WAHO conference, it was announced that indeed, Rodania and *Wadduda-the former always considered a Kuhailan and *Wadduda, a Seglawi al Abd...also share a common tail female through mtaDNA testing! Again perhaps accounting for the signicantly more Seglawi look.

Study suggests that only until the last 150 years were horses bred so diversely with so many possible strains. Prior to that the Bedouins only outcrossed when horses were made available when visiting with other tribes, trips into the major trading centers when differing lines would have been more readily available. That is why it is interesting to try to go back and recapture the essence of the orginal strains which can be made difficult to a point in that, if memory serves, if a mare was acquired /captured her strain after several generations of breeding became that of the tribe that acquired /captured her (?).

Gari

Hiya Gari:

How's my horse doing?

That is quite an exciting direction that you have chartered for your program. To have every dam line in the fifth generation be a Saklawi line. Amazing! Simply amazing!

I read Michael's article which provides much food for thought. Here is a link, in case others may want to read it:

What's In A Name?

Ralph

Hi Gari,
I have also read that treatise and have discussed mitochondrial DNA with several involved individuals and have wondered, without I add, an explanation I would find scientifically defined. Sharing a mitochondrial tailfemale??? How far back does mitochondrial DNA reach??? 10-20-100 or into the beginning of - equus?? If just as all human beings are generally, at least lately, presumed to stem from a single EVE how does it equate to horses and if that is the case perhaps the true tail female may just be the same for all Arabians, thus they are all of the same Strain. However, I have issues with mtDNA testing for strains, simply because strains are defined by ownership not "truly" a tail female or as used here a strain or subset.
Personally, I find that similar phenotypes when mated for generations will eventually, predominately produce a similar phenotype, which then becomes a recognizable "strain" or possibly more correctly, a recognizable family????
Just a spur for thought??

Regards,
JAL

Interesting ponderings Ralph! I’d like to step them a little further, if I may – working along with J Forbis’ thoughts of strains and attributes, in her book Authentic Arabian Horse (I) (I’m eagerly awaiting book II ) after many years of pondering strains, I agree with the suggestions there are no physical limitations to a strain in a generic overview. HOWEVER, yes, I will suggest one can see similarities within strains! As illustrated in J Forbis in Book I, strains can then be more ‘forthcoming’ in their “branches” and consequently “families”. I’d go further and suggest essentially its a huge coincidence that attributes can be associated with strains within the generalization of the Breed as a whole.

Why do I think this?, basically because mho - strains are names as are human surnames / family names. A reflection of such can be found in texts, such as the Abbas Pasha Manuscript (Sherif, Forbis), suggesting strongly strains are used for recognition, enabling a verbalized-recount methodology by which an illiterate race of people, the Bedouin, not necessarily unintelligent, could maintain an asil herd within the confines of the desert and their nomadic, yet somewhat confrontational, culture. Within families we can see similarities or not as the case maybe – genetics rule, strains do not. To utilize a quote from within an article ~ “From the early nineteenth century, European travellers and empire-builders were curious about the many strains of the Asil, or pure, horses. Rosetti, a resident of Syria, Northern Arabia and Egypt for 40 years wrote: "The strains belong to one breed or genus (Arabian) but they differ in points of conformation and individual characteristics and peculiarities of the shape, which they transmit..." (a wicked thought ~ there’s that concept of variety again!! )
Genetics and the Arabian Horse by Kathleen Murphy - Bio-chemist and horsewoman, written in 1992, published in Australian Studs and Stallions.

Okay, moving this along my question of Nasiri would be – what does Nasiri infer by “pure in strain” so we are all working on the same concept. Raswan, as do many others, suggests of pure-in-strain as within the parameters of sire and dam. Then there are others who tend to work a little broader, to quote Kathleen Murphy again, she illustrates another concept of pure in strain: “…to breed only to certain lines of the pedigree, the lines, which carry the desired tail-female X chromosome. If each of the dams printed in bold type in fig.1 were the same mare, then the pedigree would show inbreeding for family. By the fourth generation, only these nine lines could have provided the tail-female X chromosome for the filly whose pedigree is represented. Nevertheless, because a female obtains an X chromosome from both her sire and darn, there is no way to trace a strain with total accuracy. For a mare or filly, these are the nine lines, which the breeder should aim to a have as the same strain. In this way, it should be possible after about six generations to have Arabian horses bred relatively pure in the strain along the correct lines”. Then, last but not least , there is the pure-is-pure ie no other strain what so ever; incest breeding at its maximum with the minimalist chances of survival given the centuries/millenniums the desert horse has existed! To my mind, until the statement “pure-in-strain” is clarified, one could be writing at ‘odds’ with one and another?

The above, Ralph, can somewhat be applied to your broad statement of “If I had to pick one strain that I really, really liked it would be the Dahmans. Only because of their consistently good disposition. The Dahmans make terrific friends. I just love them”. Would it be safe for me to conclude you like attributes shown of a family within a branch of a strain that you have become familiar with at a local level? Then taking this logic, applying it in broadly encompassing terms to the Breed in general and internationally? Please, don’t despair, I’m not having a ‘go’ at you! It’s a logical thought process and one, I feel, the learning process goes through. Strains as names and attributes do tend to go hand-in-hand especially within family groups. Within family groups, this reasoning is plausible; as a generic statement it could be so far from the truth, others could be wondering what your reasoning is. And I apply this reasoning not specifically to your statement persé, but on most attributes associated with strains!

As for Al Duhaym, to utilize J Forbis’ pluralistic term, I do have a special penchant for them and would concur with your thoughts! My own sE, AK (Asil and Blue List eligible) stallion and filly are of this strain in both their sire’s and dam’s pedigrees And the stud from which these bloodlines originated from has two major components within their sE AK program – Al Duhaym and Al Kuhaylat (Rodanieh). The Arabians and their pedigrees from both stud’s programs are on their respective websites. As a bonus, there are 2 video clips of my stallion on his webpage. Instructions on how to use the links are also there ie to view these clips the latest versions (9 or greater) of Window’s Media Player on a PC and a suitable platform on a OS X for a Mac are necessary.

Perhaps, Nasiri, you would care to take a look, particularly at Talika’s website as there is a history of the families / strains used within this program. The photo album on the website essentially highlights the consistency within the general herd of sE and non-sEl programs running concurrently within the stud of varying strains. Overall, I feel, the photo album highlights above all, regardless of strain, it’s the breeder’s preferences (as that of the Bedouin of old) that are selected and bred on from within their program(s). Included within this website are the results of the latest (as per the last season’s foalings) breeding philosophies illustrating (or not) the changes with the inclusion of an intensely line-bred family of different strain(s)(though there are the odd common ancestor – as in all pedigrees, at one generation or another) and its effect on the non-linebred, linebred and in-bred families within Talika’s program.

If I may take the liberty - an update will also highlight that these rather nice Arabians, representing both the asil and non-asil programs of Talika are doing well in endurance with consistently low heart rates within their team of 4 Arabians including a sE gelding. The latest completion earnt the title of “Queensland State Champion – Lightweight Endurance Horse” along with “Best Conditioned” from the same ride (well done, Sam Marquis, Talika’s rider/trainer) – 160k in not-so-pleasant weather conditions by a mare (Talika Fazahma Bint Himar (1991 grey, non-asil, Strain : Kehaileh Rodanieh, Tail Female : Rodania DB)) who was put to saddle as a 10yo, as you can reckon - only 2 years ago!! hoping Hansi enjoys this addendum

Hiya JAL (Joe) – I agree with you, ( Gari ). I also don’t see how delineations can be made by mtDNA alone to confirm tail females for the same the reasoning, after reading the theorizing of Carl Zimmer in his book, “Evolution, The triumph of an idea”.

mtDNA to confirm strains – mho, don’t think so… as suggested, a Strain is but a name ie an identifier! Strain names have been known to change - more so for sub-sets!!

mho

I do own a 1st gen pure-in-the-strain Dahman Shahwan SO/SE/AK stallion : Desert Wind CH (you can see a photo in the ped section). And plan to bred him to 1st gen pure-in-the-strain mares to get 2nd gen pure-in-the strain babies.

I have a two year old, Dahman Shahwan colt that one must go to the fourth generation to find another strain. In that generation, there are only two - Jamilll and Prince Fa Moniet.

He's a rather interesting colt, as he has little resemblance to either parent or grandparent He does have a very good disposition, is highly intelligent and willing. Legs and feet are exceptionally good, his short head is well sculpted, body is strong and a bit more rounded than any other horse in his pedigree. It would have been interesting to see how he might have bred on, however, he has just been sold to be gelded.

Hi Barbara:

Can you post a picture of this colt?

Ralph

Hi Diane:

Your post is very good and will require a few read-throughs for me, so that I can fully absorb many of the thoughts that you present for reflection. I agree with your statement regarding the strain name as identification of the breeder, as opposed to a name which guarantees a certain type of horse, from generation to generation. I would think that the example that I posted, of the three Kuhaylan Jellabi horses would underscore how I feel regarding the classification of horses by strain. It is just not a predictable way to breed horses, as are horses, the majority of them, are not exclusively comprised of their tail female strain.

As far as the Dahmans being my favorite strain, what I neglected to add, to further explain my statement is that most of the Dahmans and Dahmahs that I personally met were of Babson breeding, Babson-Halima breeding, or Ansata breeding. More often than not, the disposition that I encountered was consistently amazing. Consistent for me to have noticed that something was different for these horses and in tryign to identify how it could happen acroos a variety of programs, they all had common ground in their being Dahmans and Dahmahs. I know that my feeling was echoed by more than me, as Walter Schimanski felt the same way. When you mentioned the short, broad head, I have to tell you that although there are many horses with this head in the Dahman family, my mare, who is a pure in the strain Dahmah does not have a short, broad head. Her maternal sire line is very Saklawi influenced and she favors *Ibn Moniet El Nefous with her longer face.

We have to remember that the Dahman strain is a "melting-pot"strain. Influenced by qualities that belong to the Kuhaylans and the Saklawis. I would think, without having any research to back-up my theory that resulting foals, will embody characteristics of the strain that their father is influenced by. So, if you have a Dahmah bred to a Saklawi influenced stallion, the resulting foal may exhibit more saklawi qualities than Dahman. And maybe not. Maybe they may be a highly refined Dahman, curvy, harmonious and.....ahhh...so beautiful!

I happen to know some very high quality horses that happen to be dahman shawan in strain . they are both black one is an El Halimaar Grandson and the other is his son also black. They are both just exquisit horses please feel free to E-mail me and I can get you intouch with them. by the way these are the only Black El halimaar grandchildren in the world.
jtsundance@hotmail.com

Hi Joe!

From a conversation with Dr. at Univ. Kentucky-Cauthrin (sp?) he indicated that unlike the current thinking with humans, there were several original mares (the 5?) !

My impression and have a hunch Diane could correct me quickly, every so often there are mares that result from mutation so the mtaDNA would be slightly different from even that dam from which she originated. So maybe a couple of hundred years which would make sense.

But in fact what you have observed that strain is in fact a matter of ownership is what I understand as well. Some horses were captured or given or purchased and they became a part of the tribes breeding program. Exactly as you noted when mated for generations the horses do take on certain characteristics. However, in the case of Helwa and Negma line animals, the latter was understood to have a question mark as the book keeping wasn't the most stringent in that case. Interestingly, Colin Pearson always contended that the line was to Ghazieh, as well.

Hello Gari,
have Rushan photo as wallpaper on PC at work.
I still am not convinced that mtDNA can be used to identify tail females, although I agree relatedness perhaps if for no other reason than exactly as you stated, natural mutations. Take Skowronek for example, in my opinion he was a mutation, with a totally different look and with a prepotency that showed the vigor of an outcross.
I still feel that horses too, trace back to a equine eve just as humans do with adaptations and mutations to fit them into their environment. As you quoted, similarities can be proven as well as differences but, lacking a definitive sample (1000s of horses tested and not only mares) we are at the beginning of genetic sampling, I am certain that this Science will grow by leaps and bounds, however at this moment, while I respect the researchers of today, I remain somewhat skeptical as to proof of absolute provenance based on mtDNA alone. There is also a protein passed on solely by male parents (via the male chromosome) which I understand has the potential to vary considerably between individuals and it just may be such, when used together with mtDNA that we will finally be able to state with relative certainty who the EVES and Adams were.
Aren't horses Fun and isn't Science intriguing and amassing so quickly with the advent of the PC that I am convinced that in my lifetime we will know that which we wish to know.

Regards
JAL

Joe,

They are indeed mind-boggling and with science advancing so rapidly-exponentially-think we'll have answers quicker than we can adjust intellectually, or psychologically. Wonderful times.

*Rushan sends his love to you and the family!

and thanks,

Gari

We all have been exposed to the history and the beauty of the true Egyptian Bedouin horse which has captivated us so much that we've spent our lives and our incomes to follow our dreams and treasure these horses.

I believe in our lifetime through DNA research we will be able to identify the originators of this breed. With that we must prepare ourselves for a stunning revalation. We may come to the conclusion that there are very few if any 'pure' horses left in existance. We all are currently aware of horses which are 'questionable' at best, yet are we making our best efforts to preserve the least of questionable horses?

Horses such as Exchorda and Sirecho, and El Nasser and even to a small degree El Deree which we know to be questionable are excused by many and considered just as legitimate at those bred by Abbas Pasha, Ali Pahsa Sherif, etc. WIth this, I'm afraid that one day, the true Egyptian horse may be recovered through DNA research only to find there are no living heirs. So do consider the path we are on with DNA pedigree research. As exciting as it may be now, remember the truth may someday be told. Science may also come to prove horses which were previously questionable may be legitimate heirs as well suc has Rabanna and Turfa. It can go either way. But I do urge us all to be very conscientious in our breeding decisions 'if' purity is a concern. Otherwise, what we have are horses that have evolved into something other than what we all started with which is really 'just as nature would have it'. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but they then cannot be claimed as the 'true' Bedouin horse, or the 'pure' Bedouin horse which was found hundreds of years ago just descendants there of. It is the things we do today that will make the difference tomorrow. By no means do I wish to offend anyone, I'm just offering some food for thought. This is a very interesting and thought provoking topic.

hiya Gari, essentially no corrections though perhaps with the exception that maybe the 'mutations' would been over a longer period!
Regarding strains - consider also that the foundation strain was the Koheilan / Kuhaylan, all others a derivation of this strain, hence the naming ritual of owner, achievement or attribute!

Ralph, perhaps to help you with the consolidation of material through a process of ‘absorption’ (as mentioned), try the following books / article (amongst others)….
Lady Wentworth’s Authentic Arabian Horse. The short title to this book doesn’t really do this book justice, to my mind. Its full title ~ Authentic Arabian Horse and his Descendants: Three Voices Concerning the Horses of Arabia – Tradition (Nejd, Inner East), Romantic Fable (Islam), The outside World of the West. (3rd edition) lends more to the information it holds. This book presents Lady Blunt’s last manuscripts courtesy of her daughter, Lady Wentworth. I feel Lady Blunt raises some very poignant points and her daughter, Lady Wentworth had the courage to publish them. The ongoing tiff between Lady Wentworth and Raswan possibly had a little to do with it as well!! Obviously, not a lot of these thoughts have been “commercialised” in regard to the Arabian Horse, particularly in the US.
Along with this book or rather the relevant chapters, also have a look at Betty Finke’s article “What lies Beneath: A look at the importance of a pedigree”. Finke’s example pedigree for Australia readers is Mustafa exported Germany, imported Australia – sire Hadban Enzahi, dam Masarrah. This article was published in the Australian Arabian Studs & Stallions, Volume 18, 2001/02
Another interesting book is RD Upton’s Gleanings from the Desert of Arabia (Olms Press) though the influence of Islamic conceptualizations are still apparent, along with his own religious beliefs; Upton explores the ‘beginnings’ of the Bedouin somewhat concurring with his peer Lady Blunt in some aspects. My understanding of Upton’s work, he can’t quite gather the information together as Lady Blunt did through her ‘3 voices’ towards the end of her life. It is written by Lady Wentworth that Lady Blunt actually rebuts her own earlier writings regarding the beginnings of the desert horse of Arabia through these later manuscripts.
The Darwinism component was also expanded for me “just at the right time” by the TV series, Evolution, from which I obtained the accompanying book as mentioned. A website for this series, Evolution, is available and is done in an educational interaction format if anyone is interested. Along with scientific studies here in Australia of the extremely limited potential of mtDNA being transmitted via the male! It is stressed within this study that it is extremely limited but not unheard of. Scientific studies are ongoing.
To muddy the water a tad more so to speak ~ I’m no scientist so when it comes to DNA, mtDNA, I understand the concepts but not necessarily the complexities it offers. However, there was one of “those programs” which plants a seed so to speak – Junk DNA! I wonder what Junk DNA has to offer (or not) for the future??

Good luck with your quest Ralph My understanding is all Arabian Horses (generically speaking) are people friendly with exquisite temperaments, its not strain specific perhaps another way to consider this thought as well?? Exceptions do rule for any horse and the way they are handled!

Hello Echo1, the purity issue is in my opinion a dead end. That is , in my opinion not at all the direction this thread is intended to go.
MtDNA has been used to compare similarities and expose differences and how it has been used in horses is exactly that way.
I do not believe that purity will ever become an option with Arabian horses or any other breed. The limitation being, at least at the moment is fixing exactly what represents purity???? the DNA may be different so we know they have different ancestry but how and who determines which is purer??
Just as with all new knowledge and in general with ALL knowledge....the more you know the less you realize you do not know and the more questions it raises??
There is more genetic uniformity in TBs than there is in Arabians, WHY? A much narrower gene pool.....Exactly why today--outcrosses to Arabians may just have to be considered once again... not to improve...but to diversify.....
and to introduce hybrid vigor by the introduction of foreign genes......
One can go on and on and and question purity but the fact remains, we just have to accept the concept of reasonable assumption....for at this moment no magic test exists, one to PROVE purity.
I am reasonably comfortable with Al Khamsa's definition and thus for me purity will never be an issue. Let everyone own, breed, ride the line of Arabian they choose. I choose SOFI horses. Others choose Skowronek and Polish lines. Nothing wrong with that.
Besides how will anyone tell those who have "impure " horses theirs are impure (kadish) horses???
I would not do that to my worst enemy since it serves no purpose at all and now that the WAHO definition is accepted world-wide why even spend the money.
Regards JAL,
See there I go again, philosophising???????????
PS. Neither El Deere, Exochorda, El Nasser have ever been accused of being other than Asil horses. At least not by me.

Joe, Well said! Couldn't agree more. Do understand that a scientist has been able to collect some DNA from some of Egypts mummified horses! Heaven knows what the snails pace of science might reveal but it is getting ever more interesting.

Diane...Actually I think 100 years is very conservative based on London's sparrows. If memory serves, according to geneticists at U of London, the London sparrows before the Industrial Revolution were all brightly colored-reds and yellows. Then the belching smokestacks...within 10 years (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) mutations occurred within the sparrow population and they became the multi colored brown/blacks we see today. The rather brief article appeared in our Time magazine a decade or so ago. Also have you seen Mary Jane Parkinsons KELLOGG ARABIANS The First Fifty Years? If you've not seen the section on Schmidt's sojourn...think you would find it interesting. Email me.

Gari

Reluctant 2,

Sorry if I changed direction in this topic and offended you. It was not my intent.
Purity is not a dead end. It is alive and well and in existance. I would think if the DNA of this small nucleus of horses was used as a basis for all others it would prove interesting. Specifically, it would end most debates on horses who have the question mark surrounding thier name. Then according to your opinion, maybe you would rather continue to kid yourself into thinking some of the questionable horses are pure.
It is my belief as long as there are some who strive for purity and are somewhat of a fanatic about purity, there will always be a need for pure horses. Otherwise what is the importance of registering any horses --as long as they only look like an Arabian?? Does not their heritage and pedigree mean anything?
Why even breed by strain if purity is not a factor, or breed by any thing is purity is not relevant? Of course it matters. To those who feel it does not matter I wonder if it is because they feel an impure horse should be considered just as good as a pure horse?
Asil is a broad term. There are horses who go beyond the difinition of Asil in their level of purity. El Nasser, Exchorda, Basilisk, El Deree give me proof !! Are they direct heirs to the original Bedouin horse or have they been infused?

If purity is not an issue, please explain to reasonable satisfaction why Registries use DNA to register horses??

Just as there are those who are perfectly contented with their horses, there are folks who are perfectly happy with only the purest hoses they can have. To each their own. I don't think one who has a pure horses has one just to rub everyone's nose in it. I think there are some people who just are collectors of fine things and are after that 'one of a kind horse.'' Look at the people who have an original Picasso hanging in their house. WHY?? They wanted it. Or the person who collects antique automobiles or jewelry. THere are those in this world who will only settle for 'original' untainted excellence.

Well, I had a reply set and done but Joe has said most of what I was going to say/suggest. I will go one step further and suggest the desert horse as bred by the nomadic desert Bedouin is qualified by its strain and sub-strain and subsequently written pedigree alone to be upheld over any other and/or attribute.

Rather than to discern whether the individual is purer than pure via DNA (which isn't possible), wouldn’t it be better to accept the wisdom and culture of the Bedouin who bred a breed of horse becoming the Arabian Horse we all cherish so much? Perhaps, a chronological date in the sand to suggest that before this date, all horses bred by the Bedouin in the desert under their own Bedouin classification of asil are in fact the basis of all bloodlines that can be accepted as being the modern day Arabian Horse? That is, not their actual DNA or metaphysical characteristics but the culture that bred them before western intervention, particularly outside of the Middle East.

Echo1, I do agree with your thought “It is the things we do today that will make the difference tomorrow.” definitely, something to ponder carefully.

Gari - will do tonight, out to feed the horses now

Hi

Bravo Echo1.

Pure is an essential part of an arabian horse and an aim for the breeder. We should be determined to breed as pure as we can. We cannot afford to settle for less that pure. In 2003 we have often got to settle for less than perfect, let's not sacrifice pureness.

I think pure is a state of mind and very personal. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder and pureness in the hart of the breeder.

Some breeders have got very high standards like the bedouins once had. Lets honour these standards set so very high. May these standards in future be of benefit to our precious race.

P.L

Echo and Nasiri,
interesting how each of us defines purity......it appears to be personal for each of us and while I respect your definition I find it too black and white to accept. Unless the Arabian Horse is ultimately identified as a separate "species", (am sure I'm using the wrong term here), of equine (like Tigers and Lions are both Felines but separated by a genetic rift that produces sterile offspring--and donkeys and horses-both equids but again , sterile offspring) the question of "absolute" purity will always remain a question and a dream. The supposition, according to some, that the Arabian horse is a distinct "sub-species" still indicates it sprang from a "species", thus by definition it cannot be pure in the "absolute".
By livestock definition, there are many breeds described as purebed , cattle, dogs, cats, pigs, sheep, and on and on who descended from other breeds who were combined to produce a breed unlike those who came before, so the ultimate question remains..................who defines purity..........who decides......... and who describes it???
DNA testing, unfortunately is merely being used to identify parentage in it's present application. The possibility to conduct all sorts of secondary tests exist, for example SCID, color makeup and on and on...
The quest for establishing ultimate purity, however.....even using mummy DNA will only prove either relatedness or level of mutation (differences) because even the mummies cannot be proven to be pure.
As long as people exist, who continue to insist that their horses are absolutely pure and disparage others whose horses have supposed "questionable purities) we will continue to remain divided as devotees and we just will not progress and mature into a united association to promote the Arabian Horse.
You did not offend me at all, like I said, I respect your opinion and convictions, I just do not happen to see it the same way. That is good.

Regards,
JAL

Hi Reluctant2

Thanks for your response. I think if you read the second last paragraph of my letter you'll see that we do agree on the isue that "pure" is personal. I said it comes from the heart. All degrees of pure comes from our hearts. It has to be possible for us to differ about pureness.
Pureness was never meant to be used as a whip to lash out to other breeders. Pureness demands respect for all other breeders and their horses and creates an aim for each of us personally.
If we allow each other to have our own standard and idea of pureness then we will grow together.

Kindest regards
PL

Dear Joe,

Extremely well said. And in the saying you have assessed the real reason the mummy dna will be so important. No way will it establish purity so much as it will assess relatedness. There have been so many invasions over the millenia that it will be interesting to see what has been retained and continued on, if anything at all. But in my heart of hearts...the niggling hope that something will show up that will one day distinguish the blood from that of other horses that came over the Strait....for I'll always believe that there was a little horse with a enormous eyes, flared nostrils and gaily flying tail that evolved out of the Nejd.

Gari

Yes Gari,
I too hope that such an evolutionary path is established as a fact. Furthermore I do not discount current theories in that direction. However, until scientifically proven, by any means, not just DNA, it merely represents a romantic legend, to which, I too subscribe.
Ah, the romantic is in all of us Arabian Horse owners.

Tschuess
JAL

Dear Nasiri,

only my opinion:

Breeding "pure in strain" is a nice tradition. From a genetical point of view it is "pure" nonsense. You always neglect 50% of the genes from the parental branches of a certain pedigree. You might breed "pure in the strain" for generations - but you will NEVER achieve uniformity if you will not restrict your program to a few individuals. IMO the only way to fix certain traits is in-/linebreeding to certain individuals presenting the desired characteristics as it is done in modern animal breeding.

The pure-in-the-strain breeding definetely worked with original beduin breeding programs. But at that time there were only few closely related individuals of a certain strain and only few stallions were regionally available between neighbour-tribes. So "pure-in-the-(maternal!) strain" breeding at that time was actually the only way of inbreeding, the beduins could do. And they obviously already knew from observation that those "pure-in-the-strain"-bred horses showed a lesser variance in their charateristics.

With the broad genetic and phenotypic variance of todays large SE population, this concept doesn't work anymore and you are running into danger of breeding pedigrees with the corresponding horses looking completely different from what you expect. But nevertheless it's a nice tradition and helps to get a system in presenting related horses.

Dear Nasiri,
I would like to reply about breeding "pure in the strain" as we have had a breeding program based on this for over 30 years, I have been a "fan" of Raswan for many years and read most of his works with great insight. I believe he had a vision. Carl Raswan wrote:
The fanatic breeder of the desert is a "PURIST" (a pure in the strain breeder). Why a purist? The purist sensed the possibility of deterioration if strains were mixed. He wanted to save the original "classic" strain families.

Vision is the creative basis of all things. Breeding becomes a symphony if you have the right notes and proper conductor. A master violinist cannot play the right notes until he has the training, experience and knowledge of the way his/her music will be received. My approach to breeding has been through a long and thoughtful process of specific type, genetic and structural attributes with the added bonus of being able to keep in tact a "pure in the strain" program. I wish to share with you
Abraxas Bint Abu (Abraxas Abu Hilal x Abraxas Halamaa) as she is one of the most concentrated "pure in the strain" Kuhaylan (Rodan) fillies of the modern world of today. Her pedigree is pure Kuhaylan to the 4th generation and she is the most beautiful speciman we have bred to date.
I had a vision over 20 years ago stemming from the nucleus of our program ET Crown Prince (The Egyptian Prince x RDM Maar Hala), and the quest to find the right mares to blend with him as I wanted specific attributes along with the possibility of keeping in tact our strain program. Through the years we were blessed with the siblings that has allowed us to blend this union for Abraxas Bint Abu. We will be on our 5th generaration of breeding "pure in the strain" and I TRUELY believe it is a "part of the ART" of breeding.

You also asked about pure in the strain DAHMAN as we have a program with that too,
Abraxas Nejd Moon(Abraxas Moonstruk x Cashai) is "pure in the strain Dahman and again the result of a vision years in the making.
My Humble Opinion
Debra Nowak
Abraxas Arabians

Dr. Wigger,

Hmmm...I respectfully disagree. It is so easy to spot horses of certain strains-the phenotype of certain strains is unmistakable even when incorrectly labeled (see *Zarife and Bint Helwa...the former a Jellaby and the latter a Seglawi Jedran....later proven via DNA to descend to the same tail female-they looked like they could have been mother and son), just as certain sire lines are unmistakable-eg, *Nasik.

For thousands of years the desert horse was far more inbred simply because there was little access to outside horses-the tribes rarely ventured out of their traditional migratory areas. Ergo strain type was fixed. To think that we are limited by less than a couple of hundred years of Western pedigree manipulation seems a narrow view. Indeed it is much more difficult to breed within the SE parameters because of the dominance and recessive genes having become somewhat fixed by the Western breeders constant/repeated re-use of certain lines. But by utilizing the larger strain gene pool available via Poland, Egypt, Crabbet, and Spain, the opportunity to strain breed and fix the originally defined type by the fifth generation, would not seem that difficult.

Ms. Nowak,

It would be wonderful if you would post some pictures of the horses you mentioned. Thank you!

Gari

this was a great thread. eccho am I reading this right? are you saying those 4 horses aren't Asil?

Wow, bedu legend, you do not know what you ask!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Bedu,
As time goes by, I learned more, researched more, valued hearing the opinions of others, and my thinking on several things has changed over the years. I consider this part of it all. I've posted several times since then stating how my feelings and thoughts on horses have changed over the years. It's seen in my horses and breeding decisions. We have to keep an open mind

Kelly