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TinaK
gbfahne.gif I hope breeders from the USA (or others) can enlighten me.
I heard quite often The Minstril would nearly "destroy" movement. Please be so kind and know that I am not interested in bashing those great stallion who has a world-wide reputation but I like to ask two questions:

1. Is that true?
2. If so, please, tell me why? Where is the weak point in his pedigree.

His sire Ruminaja Ali was a good mover from all what I have heard.
I am from Europe and the dam from The Minstril, Bahila (Ibn Galal I x Bakria by Gharib) was bred here so I am quite familiar with this lines.
We don't need to speak about Gharib's movement - he is known the world over for his fabulous trot.

Bahila's sire Ibn Galal I was by the stallion Ibn Galal who produced probably more sons that win the stallion performance test than any other Egyptian stallion (with the exception of Gharib).
Ibn Galal I himself was a great mover. In fact in Europe Ibn Galal and Gharib both are standing for power and performance and good bodies - together they make a "performance pedigree".

Bakria produced some full sibling to Bahila - namely the stallion Bahrou who had extremely nice movement and the full sisters to Bahila, El Thay Siwa and El Thay Bakria. El Thay Bakria produced among others the performance champion Ben Hur, El Thay Sima's get was successful in France at long distance races.
In other words, in Europe The Mintrill's dam line is regarded a source for performance, movement, correct bodies and stamina.
Bahila's tail female line goes to Hemmat, the very same line that produced athletes like Sarwat (by Alaa El Din ) in Europe or the great Makhsous in the USA.
That is what puzzles me when I hear the word "The Minstril destroys movement"...... Why....
bterlaan
The answer is: it is not true. Of course there will be lesser movers amongst the many offspring of this stallion, but there are also extremely good movers. It takes two, don't forget. That is valid for the bad as well as the good things. Just my opinion on the basis of what I saw myself and heard form others.
HLM
No, it is NOT true. the Minstel had very good and balanced movement. I saw him first as a yearling and lateron. I never could understand why some people would say he did not move well. I dont know what they were seeing.
David Gardner was an excellent horsemen/rider and put great emphasis on "movement" functioability. He had the choice of many an SE and selected him. And David was no man's fool.I have also seen a number of his get and also they were good moving individuals. If some weren't, then one needs to look at the dams of the foals. I only wished more would have been under saddle and show what they were bred for and could do.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ladypurr
Happy New Year, Everyooe!

I have a video of The Minstril and he has excellent, free shoulder movement with good hindquarter engagement and impulsion.

Like the previous member stated, "It takes two individuals."

Hundreds of mares were bred to The Minstril and unless emphasis was placed on selecting mares with strong movement, then the foals reflect the results of the mating.

And to address the question of "What is good movement?", I'm not sure the majority of people understand what really constitutes good movment. It's not always break-level trotting and incredible suspension--not every horse is blessed with that kind of athleticism or inclination to move out in that manner. Look at us? How many of the Forum members are ballet dancers, distance runners, hurdlers, pole-vaulters?
Some of us may have been born with a physique that would permit such athleticism, but the desire, the motivation to perform has to be there too!

Some Arabians just aren't as exciting in their movements as others. It doesn't mean that they don't move correctly and would be good riding horses.

No one should give any disparaging remarks about The Minstril. Every horse has his faults.

--Susan wink.gif
daniela-eva
hallo smile.gif
tina is right about the dam line of the minstril, bakria`s best point was her movement - she was a tremendous mover, very powerful. since i owned bakria a few years and bred bahrou the fullbrother to bahila, i can say that this line is bred for and has beautiful movement - all of them. here an old pic of bakria
Click to view attachment
greetings daniela
Stacie_H
I've seen some Minstril get,grand get, etc etc, and is definitely not true. There are some that are not exaggerated movers but they cover ground and are fluid. Look at one of our Jumper National Champions, by the Minstril. Very much the 'it takes two to tango'
mckulley1
I think the question shouldn't be "Did The Minstril take movement away" I think it should be "How was The Minstril bred that resulted in poor movers?"

Once you ask that question you will then get the answer. IMO the linebreeding and inbreeding back and forth over The Minstril is what has caused the poor movers (in general and certainly not all). But outcrossed The Minstril to lines like Seef, Dalul, etc and even non-Egyptian lines and the wonderful movement returns with the most incredible beauty...more so than any inbred/linebred of this cross could hope for.
HLM
Well dear McKulley1, didnt you ever hit the nail on the head.
If one is good, lets double,triple,quadruple and we get more. hOW RONG, EH?

But it is this ignorance in breeding, the what I almost call darn stupidity, this getting on a bandwaggon even if it runs on two flat tires and to either lazy or dumb to do the own thing.

this is where fortunately many of our small breeders shine, they did not have the money or gull to get on bandwaggons, they did their own thing and did it ever work out okay. to take a brush is wrong, it is the eye which sees and evaluates, the knowledge or experiences which guides.

Indeed matching with the older lines you mentioned resulted in excellent
offspring. But now it is almost too late to get some of those real good old mares, even if it were just to get one foal, eh. And pay any price, just to get them, as we did in the past.

If one is lucky to get a natural bred one, one should think one is in tall cotton. It is a good thing that those natural bred ones bring double the price, are in high demand by experts, as they also should. they are as rare as a 100 carat diamond, carry a predictable pedigree and a treasure to behold. And who would have them, eh?
Well look at our small breeders, and if you can talk them out of one, morgage your soal and go for it. Just my sincere opinion. I think over 75% of SES produced now are by AI. soon there will be few natural bred ones left and with it unpredictable pedigrees in galore, believ me. If you dont now, you will some day. It would be a great idea that all those who have those few natural bred mares/colts left, TO STATE SO IN THEIR ADVERTISMENTS.those will be the diamonds of the future again I think.

Due some tall thinking in 2007, use common sense, look to the past to employ things properly in the future. Dont give up or in, walk before you get on a bandbaggwon with two flat tires. do your own thing and do it right.
Always remember you are breeding horses, an intelligent mammal which feels as you do, and not cattle or swine we can eat.

No flack please, thanks

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
mckulley1
Ahh but all is not lost for these inbred/linebred souls!

There is an exceptional *Ibn Safinaz son at Imperial. And EAI Silvereen is another INCREDIBLE mover. But I will tell you that many years ago I was standing a SE Silvereen son. He was out of an Dalul granddtr. He had the most incredible movement you could ever want! The most incredible neck! A gorgeous head...but it was not bashed in exotic. I saw in Europe how they were crossing these lines already, The Minstril onto Seef and such for the combination of sheer incredible beauty and motion to die for. I even went out and leased a The Infidel dtr to breed specifically to him. I took his promo info to the Event for people to see. Do you know there was little interest!!!!!!!!! They wanted horses with little movement but exotic heads (and tiny eyes most of the time!). All for the extreme face. I watched these horses stand up at halter and almost fall over when asked to walk away. OH to have crossed some of these inbred mares onto such athletic lines. The combination would have been earth shattering.

All is not lost but one must jump off of the bandwagon to achieve it. But the world is so full of lemmings....
AllieP
Here, here! I do agree with everything that is being said. One of my best movers is a Minstril granddaughter and I've told the story before. It's amazing how rumors start and bravo to TinaK for posing such an intelligent well thought out question. It's never about one horse.

Has anyone noticed how pleasant it is not to have anonymous guest posters any longer? THANK YOU ALEKSI AND OLIVER for the changes that have allowed us to have more productive discussions on these delicate and important-to-breeders questions.
Nadj al Nur
I also have a Minstril grandson. He is also a wonderful mover and he is also linebred Abbeyan om Jurays, however, (big word, that) he has two lines to Bint Magidaa, therefore, also to Khofo, who was a wonderful moving horse. His grandmother is Marah, who was noted for her good legs and good movement, and of course, other grand dad is Jamil who was also a good mover. I think you CAN linebreed without losing performance ability, if you are careful not to have too many crosses to the same horse closeup and study the horses first.
Cathy
Nadj al Nur
Oh Yeah.....and Hansi.....no AI here !!!!
Cathy
Robert 1
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Hi Tina,
The Minstril and many of his get were able to move rather well, I have seen these horses at the Egyptian Event from some of there first appearances and when some of them returned to the EE I never missed the chance to look them over again to see how they improved with maturity.
When (some say) that the Minstril lines can't move, I don't believe it is bcause of there breeding or how many crosses they have repeated in there breeding but, rather how many horses this line has produced over the years, lets face it, not a every foal produced from a great stallion equals a home run but, more practically speaking, only a few in any line will reach the status of up where the air is rare. biggrin.gif
I followed this line and the owner and I even talked about us purchasing Thee Asil, a grand get, when he was first brought to the EE as two year old, he had a fabulous neck. wink.gif
Take Botswana, a very exotic and beautiful stallion, he has three lines to The Minstril and is even closer when his pedigree is examined closely, and so are many more closely bred but, many are of extremly high quality with beautiful movement. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
HLM
O Cathy, now you make me laugh for joy. I often wonder why on this earth I am pounding so hard, and than I look at our horses and right away I know it is not in vain.

Now I read these wonderful names of some of those old-timers and am so happy that it is recognized what I saw and know so long ago. Dalul himself(I knew him in the flesh since he was a pup) was an exceptional powerful mover. And true to form of the Yosreia/Sheherezade line, which never failed and still
continues to amaze me how it breeds still on.
And of course that Abbayan Um Juray line is no slouch either, actually
often fantastic, powerful and balanced movers. And dont overlook those Pritzlaff horses, they are "doers" as well and many very type.

It is so rewarding for me to see how some of you study the lines,state what you like or dont and become aware where it comes from. As you all can see, you can produce a super mover who is also very type.

this forum has helped so much, we all learned so much, including myself, and YES it is wonderful that we now have names. Thanks Aleksi and Oliver. I now can say the forum is no longer "AI". ha! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Have a laugh in appreciation

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms


_
Allison of Talaria
Dear TinaK,

We stand a wonderful stallion--who is double Minstril, with three lines to Ruminaja Ali. He has consistently given us beautiful foals for the past six years, and has in the process established quite a decent reputation as a straight Egyptian breeding stallion here in the US.

Because I also was told the same thing as you were about the movement of the Minstril bloodlines, we have been, since he was two, very careful to breed our stallion to mares who have excellent movement.

However, one day, about three years ago, a deer lept the fence in our stallion's paddock, and he started to run with the deer across the field. And he exhibited beautiful free flowing movement, with mane and tail flying, and huge extension! And I stood on the hill looking at this and thought...."Who says these horses can't move?" And perhaps a better question, as part of this all has to do with sales competition, "Why would such an indictment have been generated?"

What I can tell you is that many of the Minstril bred horses are extremely intelligent, and have quite calm dispositions. Ours in particular sees no value in rocking the boat and making trouble in the barn...better to just sail along on a easy course and get along with most other horses and the people in his life. A wonderful horse to work with every day--but not long on "blow and snort." He can, of course, blow and snort with the best of them--but that is not his personality on a day-to-day basis.

And so we now like to find mares with blow and snort....and don't worry quite so much about the "movement" problem. Particularly since his foals have been winning consistently in the performance arenas.

Of course, we're probably going to over-correct the "blow and snort" situation and have a program known for fire-breathers! (Just kidding, but one does have to be careful, no?)

One last point. Many of the MInstril horses have been bred and shown here in the US. Our halter training and show ring expectations have never in the past emphasized movement, but more the "hard stand up." Thus our horses are not trained to be free and charismatic in the arena, but to stand up and stretch out their necks and level their backs, and generally look pretty tense. It itakes some time to retrain a halter horse accustomed to the US methods to move freely (and with gusto) as shown in Europe or the Middle East. I think a perfect example is Dakharo. He did not start winning the big prizes abroad until he learned to move freely and charismatically. He could always do it--he just had to learn it was okay in center ring. That process took over six months, if I remember correctly. I saw him shown here in the US--and then the next time in Sharjah about a year later. He was sooooo exciting to watch there, as he exploded into the arena and flew around with his tail over his back and his nostrils distended. Same horse, same ability to move--just a very different presentation.

Allison of Talaria
Liz Allen
Why do people always blame the stallion and not look at the mare also? It definetly takes two, that's for sure. I have seen many horses who are sired by stallions with wonderful floating movement, yet they themselves don't seem to move out well at all and the other way around.

JMHO

smile.gif

Liz
Robert 1
Hi Liz,
I realize each of us have our own opinions of our favorite horses but,
if stallions such as those you mentioned don't impress you , I am curious as to which horses do? huh.gif biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
AAArabians
TinaK,

I would like to point out clearly thet there are no perfect horses, not
even any that I own!
As a breeder I try to be very factual, I reserve my opinion for conversations with friends!
Scientifically Minstril has his own motion which many breeders do not like.
I find that it could be caused by a conformational defect which can be clearly seen in person or on tape! His rear is a tad bit higher than should be,which inhibits
the lift in the front to recieve a full stride. It also forces some of his descendants
to camp out in order to be level at halter. One rear leg should be directly under the horse in its line! He also has a very wide rear which makes him track far outside the front. These conformation deviations cause him to pitch forward a bit.

Now in my opinion he has brought much beauty and elegance to our breed!
He has an incredible Mitbah that I have never seen on another!
If a breeder can aknowledge the faults in that line and breed away, it
could be the ultimate! It just takes the right mate!

Kindest Regards
Candi L Weeks
HLM
Well, going wide, etc is something which most likely was trained on. when I saw him and remember his gaits, he did not. first of all we dressage rider
"massage the rearend" i.e. ride exercises which makes the hind legs engage properly.If one hangs in their mouth, collects them beyond what it should be, of course they will go wide behind. Unless one has a video which shows in slow motion strides a length of distance, it would be unfair to judge. Many a horse's gaits have been ruined, noodled away, because of either poor training or riding.David is a good rider, so I doubt if he did anything wrong.

The other statement, dont like this or that horse, just take a look at those offspring which were bred "naturally" and then compare. I have done this for almost 20 years and this is why I am for ever stating, breed natural, unless you take the entire collection at one time to one mare.

Example, if you have a mare again and again giving foals with certain conformation faults, disposition of reproductions faults, etc. then you need to take a look into the pedigree. If for 5-6 generations none of the ancestors have these faults, then you must stop, and start wondering. Where are they coming from? How do I outbreed it? How do I not duplicate? And that's when it becomes a puzzle. In other words you no longer have a predictable pedigree and pay the wishful thinking/guessing game, which is very dangerous. The various faults I see in some of the SEs are NOT in their pedigree.

A good breeder will not breed from an animal with detrimental faults, he will avoid this at all costs. But when the semen is divided many times, sperm which would not fertilize under normal circumstances suddenly does through AI and with it could produce numerous genetic faults, and have, trouble can be spelled in large letters. I know what I am saying hits some pocket books.
Of course it is not easy to ship your mare out, or lease a stallion or buy one.
The decision is yours, you create life and have to live with it, I guess.


At my time, and considering the imports and their production I cant remember seeing an offspring with hoofs belonging to a yearling when they turned into an adult. Also have not seen these mutton whithers, off set cannons,
shallow girth, club feet, certain health problems or reproduction problems, etc.etc. That all came later and most of the time it belonged to an AI bred horse. I assure you in 40 years of breeding SES I never heard of all the problems existing now and never once experienced these in the Serenity Horses.
THAT IS A FACT!

Just my opion through experiences.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Allen
Robert:

In answer to your question about which stallions and their progreny impress me:
smile.gif
SE Stallions:

Simeon Shai (one of my all time favourite Arabian stallions, a very correct horse in my opinion); Ansata Halim Shah; Farid Albadeia(even better in the flesh); Ansata Ibn Halima; Morafic; Tuhotmos; Asfour; Ra'adin Royal Star; Imperial Madheen; Imperial Imdal; Aswan; Hadban Enzahi; Sankt George; Magd Albadeia (photos don't do him justice, as he has so much presence which a camera can't capture); El Shareef; Imperial Baarez; Marquis 1; Magnificent KA (sp); El Halimaar; Prince Fa Moniet; Al Karim El Sirhalima

Non SE stallions:

Naavah (grandson of Naadirah and 1996 Unanimous Aus Champion and an ideal stallion for me as he was extremely hard to fault in all aspects) and his son Nazzai; Nile (grandson of Naadirah; Mustafa (x Hadband Enzahi); Maa'zooz, Naaddel (son of Naadirah); Naazim (son of Naadirah); Ralvon Pilgrim exp/imp UK (Crabbet breeding International champion); Kyremi Ilustraa (sire of my mare and double Ralvon Pilgrim); Arjai Summit (full brother to Ilustraa): River Oak Imprint: Sanadik El Shaklan and his sire: Rasham (pure Crabbet); Arfaja Robard (son of Rasham and pure Crabbet; WN Dasjmir; Om El Abadan (Carmague); Muscat: Marajj; Marwan Al Shaqib; Ghazal Al Shaqab; Simeon Sanegor: Vision (Jamill); Bandom (pure Crabbet); El Kasaka (pure Russian); The Puritan (x Talal); Cool Hand Luke; Banderol (pure Crabbet); Pinaroo Kasim

There are others too; i,e some of the popular Polish and Russian sires, however I am not as familiar with them and cannot think of their names at the moment. Plus there are pobably others I have forgotten. However you may not be familiar with some of these stallions (i.e the non SE's, depending on where you are from).

I'm sorry if I offended you with my earlier post and agree we all have different tastes and looks for slightly different things. Plus I am sure there have been some superb individuals which have come out of this line, I saw a black mare who is double The Minstril here in Oz, and she was lovely, however I wouldn't be interested in her due to her pedigree. Plus there would be horses with the above bloodlines which I have mentioned above which didn't turn out so well. Breeding can be such a lottery!

Cheers

Liz
smile.gif
Robert 1
Click to view attachment
Dear Liz,
See there, you do like many other horses and such a wide variety, kind of from one end of the spectrum to the other end and nothing in particular so why not a beautiful line lke The Minstril, who proved him self in the show ring many times over and of course in his breeding ablilties by being able to produce sons and grandsons that went on to be fine horses and they also proved them selves in the showring. wink.gif
You don't need to apoligize to me, I wasn't offended but, there are many owners and breeders out there that do have The Minstril line of horses that may have been offended by your summation of The Minstril and his get. laugh.gif
Adios,
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
PGD
Here is the grand old man, himself, from about a month ago - at age 23.



and another from about a week ago - of The Minstril and his favorite human, Fidel Cardenas.
Click to view attachment

I meant to add, if you want to see a Minstril-bred horse that truly CAN move well, look up Thee Shirazi, a multi-champion dressage and halter stallion.

Nancy
jsimicek
The first time I saw The Minstril, he was a yearling and I knew he was going to be big. He was bred for halter and he and his foals have made a huge impact on the breed. Horses I have seen by The MInstril move beautifully and make a gorgeous picture with their animation and presence. I loved him then and I have several horses of that line.

Comparing those we have seen on this farm in training, including those belonging to me and those of outside owners, some of these horses make wonderful performance horses. They are athletic and beautiful.

Here is what I have noticed in those I have seen. We have seen some of these horses with the flatter croup and these horses seem to have less of the natural ability to move with the legs under them at the lope or canter with a rider. This does not seem to be a problem at the trot, and it is not a problem with every horse. However, from what we have seen, most of them do have some issues with learning to canter or lope in frame with a rider.

We have noticed this in horses that are started here as well as horses started by other trainers. Most of these horses do learn to lope or canter in frame, but what takes a short time with another line may take two times as long or even much
longer to accomplish at a level that is competitive in a western or hunter class.

I had two colts born within weeks of each other and both were started under saddle by the same trainer. One was of this line, the other not. Both progressed beautifully.... until the lope or canter. One horse accomplished this in a very short time, the other seemed to have trouble with collection at the lope or canter. It just was not natural or comfortable for this horse. He did learn to do it, but probably not to the point that he would be competitive in class A competition today.

Our trainer had several horses of that line and other lines in training and I was seeing the same problem with some. I even considered that it was a training method that some of the horses were not loping or cantering. I thought maybe it was that our trainer here was not comfortable at this gait. But it was then that I noticed that it was only horses of this line. About that time we got a horse in training of the same line and he came from a stable whose trainer told the owner he was not going to make a show horse. Our trainer rode him, and he was beautiful, a gorgeous mover at the walk and trot. But when he was asked to canter, he became very nervous and just could not do it. He threw his head up and ran sideways in a panic. He actually had a mental block and would panic. We started asking some questions, and found that when they started to canter with the last trainer, he was not able to canter in frame. They had resorted to using a bigger bit and started to punish him by swatting him with a crop when he would not canter in frame. Our trainer started him back in a snaffle and did some work on the lunge line. She taught him to canter on the lunge line, then rode him and had someone lunge him. By restoring his confidence at this gait, she was able to teach him to carry a rider and canter in frame. Slowly this horse came around and today he probably has national potential for a youth or amateur in hunter.

I love my horses of this line. They are beautiful and my filly out of a mare of this line will be on my show string. But when it comes to the training under saddle, I will know that some of these horses may need some extra work and time in learning to canter or lope in frame. If my horses are not natural and happy in the discipline they won't be in it. I will sell them or use them according to their talents.

I will add, for the record, that every horse of this line that I refer to was bred by natural cover, not AI.
Liz Allen
Robert

This is just my personal preference, I would give you more detail, however it would offend people even more and probably you too, and I have said more than enough to get myself in to trouble! One other thing about this line is there is an excess supply which causes a reduction in aggregate demand.
Also, a lot (NOT ALL) of the middle eastern breeders don't want this line, as they want a 'clean pedigree'.
I have heard of people say nasty things about horses I think highly of (i.e Ralvon Pilgrim and his descendants), this is just their personal preference, it doesn't offend me. There are SE studs that for some reason or another will not use Ansata Halim Shah blood (although some will use all of his ancestors which is interesting in itself), this is the same thing.


Just my personal and humble opinion.

Liz

smile.gif
TommyH
Dear Liz,

Funny you should pick out Anaza El Nizr as he stood out (for me) with OUTSTANDING elegance, lovely comformation and SUPERB type but sadly with absolutely NO freedom of movement at all.
Must say I only saw him once but the difference in quality from a pose to motion is seldom seen.

Just an observation.


TommyH
Norway
HLM
Dear Allison

I am so sorry to say that I todally disagree with you. The training for a halter horse, the stand up etc has absolutely nothing to do with movement, it does not improve it nor does it destroy it. The horse either got good movement or not. Movement is based on its conformation. If these horses were shown under saddle, one could truly evaluate their "Movement". You simply cant have a long strided horse with a short,steep shoulder, a poor rearend and tiny hoofs to suport the horse's weight adequately.

yes I noticed many of the Minstril offspring/offspring at halter at the EE and the conformation faults I saw are not in their pedigree. They are in my opinion created through ignorant breeding methods. I seriously doubt if 9 out of ten of these could ever accomplish much under saddle. This should be obvious,otherwise they would show what they can do, right? To blame the Minstril for it is not correct, but to blame the owners for these countless AI bred offsprings one should. Dividing semen 40times and charging $ 15,000 stud fee is not a bad business deal or? Sow what in your opinion are useless horses worth? I say fifty cents per pound on the hoof. And who got ripped off? The person who got on a flat tire bandwaggon I think. However, a brush should not be used either and each individual examined properly for what it is able to do.

I think we should all look and examine where what comes from and if bad, how we can prevent it from happening again. One should also question seriously if any of these horses with terrible faults should become breeding stock. This I leave to the sconcience of the owners!

Have a ncie day and no hard feelings, of course.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabianm Farms
HLM
Hi Liz

thanks for your opinion. Now you forgot some of the greatest, possible you have not seen them in the flesh nor their offspring. That includes the old-timers.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Robert 1
Dear Liz,
You name some very great horses and I agree with you and Hansi on some of your evaluations. wink.gif
The halter horse so to speak should also be an excellent mover in performance, not one or the other. wink.gif
I also admire many of the older lines, they were true quality.
I saw Simeon Shai when he was at the EE with Christi Metz, a very quiet and nice stallion. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Allison of Talaria
Hansi,

I didn't say that halter training had anything to do with the horse's natural ability to move (or not move). I only said (or was trying to, and obviously didn't do a good job here) that halter horses in this country are not encouraged to demonstrate movement when they are presented--as opposed to halter presentations in Europe and the Middle East. Thus if one has only seen them in the halter classes in the US arenas, then you really don't have a clue as to how these horses can really move at liberty or under saddle.

In addition, most of the Minstril/TD line horses have been bred by people not at all interested in the performance arena. Do some of these horses move well? Yes, as you have so eloquently stated above. Do some of them not move well--I would say yes. HOWEVER, that is true of many lines, both SE and other bloodlines--certain individuals are much more accomplished than others..

I try very carefully to not be prejudiced by rumours about bloodlines when I choose my breeding stock. Each animal is a unique combination of genes--and really can be quite different from another with the same bloodlines (sometimes even the same parents). Are pedigrees good road maps? Of course. Do certain bloodlines exhibit similar traits? Of course.

But I am trying to breed my own style of horse, and I will look at all bloodlines (in individual horses) to accomplish my dreams..... If I fail, then I have no one to blame but myself, right?

Allison of Talaria
HLM
Dear Allison

By no means did I mean to offend you, or even refer to your breeding program or any horse in it. I spoke in general as I most of the time do.

The horses I saw over numerous years at the EE which could not move if you put roller scates on them, indeed had the conformation of POOR MOVERS. Any expert could readily see this. I examined many and often could not believe of what I saw, because it is NOT in their pedigree.

What equine industry breeds only for halter Horse? None except the SEs.
And who's fault is this? I blame the large, financially able breeders who do not promote the SEs for what it is and can do, but what it looks like, depending on the time of day. So they are breeding Dollarbills, and not horses in my opinion.

Again and again I have pleaded that the PS makes it mandatory to have stallions off age go into a performance class first, before they enter the halter class. Why should this be such an outragous request? Does one really think these large farms will discontinue showing at the EE? I dont think so, they need the Ee to sell horses and breedings. Just look at the board of Directors of the PS for the past two decades and it will tell you a lot.
Indeed there are some on it who breed for a functional horse, but when one only selects "Yes" people to the board, what can one expect, eh?

What I also see is that many of our smaller breeders dont have a chance in hell. They breed true to form, a SE one can ride, even a child and many are bred by natural service too. They are the backbone of our industry.
But they cant compete against these halter garden ornaments on the end of a shank of a promoted trainer. Especially when the Board created such unorcedoxed point system, an insult to any equine breed. Now examine who did it and why and you have your answer.

If they would do as I pleaded, our small breeders are able to compete with their good horses, and we all would have a comparrison. It is really not who is winning such class, but how experts see the movement of the horses.
We must always consider who is judging and who selected them, eh?

Why should anybody pay $ 300.00 for a membership to help fill a halter class with absolutely no chance at all to win, when many of our people have a better horse to compete with. I have seen the "Best" horse getting the gate and some
3legged individual winning. And that is an insult!!!!

Yes, the European system is better. But do they demand the SEs to perform? Of course not. Also this was/is in the hands of high rolling promoters.

If you, as we are, and many others truly want the SE to earn back respect, then I highly recommend to put our fOOT down, and make a 360degree turn about.
There is still time! Remember, us original importers some 40 years ago had onLy a handful of SEs competing against the thousands on Non-SEs and came through with flying colours. Now ,that we possibly only have a "Handfull (so to speak) of formidable competors left, IT CAN BE DONE AGAIN.!!!
Where there is a will, they will be a way, right!

We can talk about menmade labels and pedigrees until we are blue in the face.
Unless we show what such lines/horses can do, it is MEANINGLESS and not worth A DIME! CANT ANYBODY PLEASE SEE AND UNDERSTANMD THIS?????

Just my humble opinion

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Salmon
I have evaluated many many horses of the TM/TD lines, while some have fabulous movement, some have not, which is typical of all bloodlines. I have found that some that are well conformed otherwise, are tied in at the elbow restricting their shoulder movement. Great type is in abundance nearly always.

Allison at Talaria does a fabulous job in training her horses under saddle and is a wonderful example of SE breeders doing their very best to breed and promote great performance horses, without losing true type and presence. She also runs fabulous and educational seminars to help new comers in particular, understand all aspects of the breed.
HLM
Dear Liz (Salmon)

some of us know this. Now may be Allison and you can help to have those studs go into performance before they enter a halter class. Can you name any of our smaller breeders who are doing this for many years and not put into the limelight? Some might not be able to afford having someone come out and evaluate or hold huge barn parties at the EE, etc. But many breed excellent SEs!

I would be a great service to all SEs if we support and bring forth those collegues of ours, no matter how small, who sacrifice still so much to preserve the good Straight Egyptians. theya re the ones who try to hard to bring respect back to the SEs. So let's talk about them, lets lift them up on that well deserving pedal stall.

I believe it was Ken Mayfield, who brought an Al Khamsa group to one of the EEs, took them around to every stall and explained these wonderful horses.
to the best of my knowledge that was the firt time anybody did this, not even the PS had before that.

Also I march around each Ee to look at horses in their stalls or ask the owners to pull them out and show them to me, which they always did with great pleasure.

It might also be a good idea to bring forth the breeders/owners/riders of the fantastic Endurance racers, those who again and again compete coming home sound. In most cases they are owned by our smaller breeders.

there is that 800mile ride coming up in September. Do you have a horse possibly competing or a client of yours/Clare? We just lost Serenity Aristu who would have been entered. Will Marion Richmond have one of their clients compete? Has K Henwood or any of the client's horses you evaluated anything to compete with, or will it again be the Middle east (UAE) who will try for it? They did at the tevis Cup, as you know. When Bill was over there in the UAE in October he saw some 400-600 horses in Endurance training, can you imagine!
I can not help but SALUTE THESE MIDDLE EAST AND GULF BREEDERS/OWNERS.

It should really not be that hard, just think of what the cavalery horses had to do- EVERY DAY! Or for that matter the Bedus.

I know that there are "Minstril" blood SEs out there who also could do it all.
Will they be given a chance? I pray they will.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
PGD
Funny, that in a discussion such as this, no one comments on actual horses who ARE out there doing it. This is just one such horse that I just happen to know about who has actually been put under saddle...Thee Shirazi (Thee Desperado x Minstrils Glory by The Minstril) 1995 Grey SE Stallion. NOTE that Shirazi has been champion in halter AND open performance. His results at the Egyptian Event were also impressive, with a high score of 70.400 in TRAINING LEVEL TEST 4, and the award of Reserve Champion Senior Stallion behind Imperial Baarez.

(It's impossible for a horse to excel at performance if his HUMAN BEING has never put him/her under saddle... dry.gif )

AHA Recognized Competition Region Dates
Class Description Place Score/% # in Class Ach Award Points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALAMO ARABIAN FIESTA (6800) Region: 9 15-MAY-03 to 18-MAY-03
A/HA/AA Dressage Third Level 1 62.667 1 3
A/HA/AA Dressage Fourth Level 1 54.415 1 0
ALAMO ARABIAN FIESTA (5347) Region: 9 18-MAY-00 to 21-MAY-00
A/HA/AA Dressage Training Level 1 74.09 6 4
A/HA/AA Dressage Training Level 1 74.8 6 4
44TH ANNUAL SCOTTSDALE SHOW (4699) Region: 7 12-FEB-99 to 21-FEB-99
Arabian Stallion Breeding AO 4 9 0
WACO FALL THANKSGIVING SHOW (4422) Region: 9 27-NOV-98 to 29-NOV-98
Arabian Stallion Breeding 1 2 .5
Arabian Stallion Breeding Champ 1 4 2
Arabian Stallion Breeding Champ 1 3 1
Arabian Stallion Breeding AO 1 6 1
Arabian Most Classic 1 5 1
NTAHC PRO-AM CHALLENGE (3830) Region: 9 29-APR-97 to 04-MAY-97
Arabian Stallion Breeding 4 8 0
SAN ANTONIO LIVESTOCK EXPO (3801) Region: 9 02-FEB-97 to 03-FEB-97
Arabian Stallion Breeding 1 3 .5
Arabian Stallion Breeding Champ 1 4 2
ARK ARAB VICTORY CHALLENGE (3428) Region: 9 12-APR-96 to 14-APR-96
Arabian Stallion Breeding Champ 1 4 2

Open Competitions Date Place Lvl/Test Percent # in Class Ach Award Points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAN ANTONIO SPRING II 06-APR-03 1 2/4 53.725 2 0
SAN ANTONIO SPRING I 05-APR-03 1 2/4 54.314 1 0
SAN ANTONIO SPRING I 05-APR-03 4 3/3 53.333 5 0
CEDAR TRACE W/FRIENDS II 23-MAR-03 5 3/3 64.667 6 4
CEDAR TRACE W/FRIENDS II 23-MAR-03 1 2/4 62.157 2 2
CEDAR TRACE W/FRIENDS 22-MAR-03 2 2/4 62.941 3 2
CEDAR TRACE W/FRIENDS 22-MAR-03 5 3/3 60.444 6 2
CEDAR TRACE II 23-FEB-03 2/4 58.627 1
CEDAR TRACE II 23-FEB-03 3/3 56.222 1
CEDAR TRACE I 22-FEB-03 3/3 58.889 2
CEDAR TRACE I 22-FEB-03 2/4 63.333 3

Nancy P.
HLM
My dear, we will change this concept momentarily. Wait for my next subject post which might settle the issue once and for all.

Hansi
Serenity Arbaian Farms
Echo1
I guess there are many theories as to why a horse perhaps doesn't have great movement. Anything from how they are trained in halter, to linebreeding to judges or how a horse is handled in the show ring or The Minstril is all good and if a fault it must be the mare he was bred to or it all being genetic. Sure these things are possible but it doesn't give a clear answer, and there is alot of room for skepticism.

Nevertheless, this group of horses does account for the close majority of young horses in the halter arena in the US. When there is a majority of these horses, usually the best of them are what is selected for the show ring. Or have we grown accustomed to them to a point we are conditioned to think a certain way about them?

Many of these horses are very good horses, but what I've noticed in them that 'if' there is a problem with them or if there is something that inhibits the movement in them it seems to be the same two areas that are usually highlighted. As Liz mentioned, the elbows are tied in, and/or what I've noticed, and maybe it's just my opinion, but the coupling is very stiff, and the horse isn't all that flexible in the back and hips. This gives the impression that he's overall not that athletic or having good dynamics.

With that, you may want to consider looking at these horses individaully instead of making a blanket judgement they they are all good or bad, this is all fact or fiction, or it is either truth or rumor. There may be a bit of both since we're dealing with such a large group of horses. and the pedigrees have become so widespread in that this stallion line was crossed with almost everything in SE at some point. smile.gif
Think of it as if you were trying to say do all Nazeer horses have good movement or not?
Liz Allen
Funny you should pick out Anaza El Nizr as he stood out (for me) with OUTSTANDING elegance, lovely comformation and SUPERB type but sadly with absolutely NO freedom of movement at all.
Must say I only saw him once but the difference in quality from a pose to motion is seldom seen.


Hi Tommy

I must admit, I may not have chose the best example here with Nizr. I never saw him when he was here, but I do love his dam. Saying this I don't think I would use a stallion without seeing him in the flesh and some of his foals too. The two stallions I have used I saw on several occasions (up close too) and a lot of their relatives. What impressed me with Nizr was his progeny. For example in 1996 I saw his daughter Aliha Bint Nizr (out of a Polish mare) who really impressed me.
That doesn't surprise me that he doesn't move that well as I don't think R.Ali lines are known for their movement, unlike Hanan lines which are. This is what I mean to say about the Minstril line that I don't believe he moves well and I don't believe he produces movement, more so type. There are some wonderful horses from this line though.

Cheers

Liz
Marilee
I must disagree with the following...... "halter horses in this country are NOT ENCOURAGED to demonstrate movement when they are presented, as opposed to halter presentations in Europe and Middle East....If one has only seen them in halter classes you DON"T HAVE A CLUE as to how these horses can move at liberty or under saddle".

When we were watching halter classes in the early 80s, we decided to mentor those who allowed forward movement, with minimal correction and restriction (we liked Mike Neal and Ron Palelek). So with our stallion who had great extension and mutual respect for his amateur/owner (us), we let him show quite as showmanship in hand, longer line, little chain, never shanking, because he was so responsive and light in the halter/(bridle/bit under saddle too). Others of course did the full speed run in , shank the horse, pull them around, set them up, slam the horse again under the jaw/chin or around the poll to maintain position.
We, out of respect for the horse, were careful, ask and correct with a gentle/mind
signal and then leave the horse alone, as if we were in the saddle. I think it is the same af if you were ground driving the horse or carefully lunging, except with the single rein/lead. You want the long free walk, the extended or collected trot, and sometimes the canter if the handler can run that fast! The rules of showing halter or showmanship (in open classes) do not dictate that you cannnot dispaly or demonstrate movement in hand. But I have seen and know that those trainers who showed and continue to show in a heavy handed restrictive manner create so much stress and fear in the horse of constant correction and shanking at every point that the horse hardly knows what to do,where to go, or at what speed to proceed. I have seen the same thing under saddle of trainers riding with one foot on the gas (spurs) and many feet on the brakes(martingale, tie-down, huge bits), so again the horse has restricted movement. Our Egyptian Arabians (well some of them) have wonderful light flowing elegant movement. I think it is the openminded owner/handler who will allow their horse to be shown in this manner of free forward movement, with minimal and subtle correction, showing obedience to the handler/rider.

I showed my stallion myself several times here in Vegas, as I knew no one who would show him in this way. I just showed 2 mares ages 25 and 30 at Horses for Heroes (veterans, police, and fire fighters, teachers in the audience) the same manner, little correction as needed, respect for their heritage and movement, so the new audience could see the real athletism of the horses. Handlers do not need to be "encouraged to demonstrate movement"; they should anyway out of respect for the horse. If the horse is properly trained and left alone, it should do a natural presentation, with little needed from the handler, save asking for responses and getting rewards.

If horses are presented in this way, to me there is little difference to seeing them in liberty and under saddle, because you will see the extension, collection, and response to the handler/rider in the movement of the horse.

Marilee in Las Vegas biggrin.gif
Cheryl L
I had the live feed for '06 Nationals. I watched the Halter classes. This year I noticed that most of the horses TROTTED in and were encouraged to do so. They looked wonderful. The handlers took their time at showing off the trot too. It was very refreshing in my book and hopefully a positive step in the right direction.
Cheryl
NAS
I find this discussion very interesting since my older stallion is a grandson of Ruminaja Ali and my mare's sire is inbred to The Minstrel. My stallion has spectacular movement and I've often wondered where it came from as his sire (Focus Khemali) was a good, but not spectacular mover, and his dam (by Rastano and out of an Egyptian Prince mare) was also a good mover, but nothing special. My mare, as Liz said of The Minstrel line, has type in abundance, but is nothing special as a mover--although she is very athletic. By crossing the two I was hoping for a combination of great movement and type (although I was line-breeding to Ruminaja Ali, who I saw in the flesh and was not impressed by his movement). Well, the result was a colt who has his father's breathtaking movement, and more (but not his mother's extreme) type. Hmm.
P.S. A question for Liz--as you've seen Asfour in the flesh I wonder if you can describe his movement to me from a dressage perspective. I've long coveted a daughter of his to breed to my stallion and wondered if I would get the dressage-type movement I want.
Liz Salmon
NAS, to answer your questions, Focus Khemali had some great movers in his pedigree. Asfour is a wonderful mover, and yes you would have a good chance of getting the movement you desire. His only son in the US—Simeon Sachi also has that fabulous movement. Sachi's 2 year old son Hassan will be going to the World Cup in Las Vegas. At 2 years old he's 15 hh with movement that I would score a high 19 or 20. He can be seen in the Dallas area.
savagepassion
Hy every body,

I didn't see The minstril in live, so I can't to speak about him, but I can to speak about one of his grand daughter.
I have a mare, BFA Angelina, she has the bloodline of The Minstril because she is a daughter of The Atticus.
She has a lot of charisma and a wonderful movement, and she gives it at her progeny.
So, she is so the grand daughter of Imperial Madheen.
BFA Angelina (The Atticus xMB Taleena by Imperial Madheen)
She gave us a bay colt with Ruminaja Fayez, and his movement is great.

For these reasons, I couldn't say "The minstril is not a good producer for the movement"
Sorry I've not a picture about my grey mare when she moves, but you can to have an idea with her colt (Kefren Savage).
TinaK
Many thank for the overwhelming reply. I enjoyed reading every answer.

To savagepassion
A granddaughter of The Minstril has many other ancestors in her pedigree that can make her a good mover... biggrin.gif
savagepassion
biggrin.gif Yes of course!
And she has Imperial Madheen wub.gif
TinaK
Yeah, he was a wonderful moving horse as were his full siblings in Germany.
Basilisk
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Jan 4 2007, 03:46 PM)
I have evaluated many many horses of the TM/TD lines, while some have fabulous movement, some have not, which is typical of all bloodlines. I have found that some that are well conformed otherwise, are tied in at the elbow restricting their shoulder movement. Great type is in abundance nearly always.
*


That is an excellent point Liz about tied-in elbows, and one that is too often overlooked. Eileen Tatam, who as you know was one of the first in the UK to import directly from the EAO, was very firm about this, and that is why she chose the Seef son Marawan to head her breeding programme. Marawan and his offspring were/are all top-class movers AND had excellent type too - and are outstanding under saddle as well. Eileen of course had extensive experience with 'doing horses' before she got into Arabs - and that, to me is part of the problem these days.

I am also concerned by the belief that the foreleg should be set as far forward as possible : this too goes with less than good movement, and produces an unbalanced-looking horse.

Finally, I am curious to know what Liz Allen means why she says people don't want Minstril lines as they want a 'clean pedigree': is this some suggestion of something less than desirable in his ancestry?

Keren
Bandit
Is it not possible that some lines are preferred over others because some could be carriers of the SCID, LFS or JES genes? NOW IM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. Im just saying it could be a possibility and something to think about when no other answers appear to be present.
Just a thought.
Also, intense inbreeding, can cause hidden recessives to come to the surface that normally are not seen in individual horses. Not that this is a bad thing, but it can become a very bad thing when these horses are not culled from breeding and are continued to be bred back into the gene pool. This in itself can set up the gene sequencing for big trouble both in blood and flesh. New sEs nowdays tend to be inbred right?
Im beginning to believe more and more that when looking at sE pedigrees the horses in the very back of the pedigrees are the place to start.
HLM
When some of the ansata horses had this too far forward front leg/flush with the chest, Judi created a drawing years ago, stating that this is how it
should be.
I was flabergusted and could not believe what I saw and read.

Now, the beautiful horse shown today in the Forum window start, does not show that it can move at all. you see how photos can destort. I dont know who this horse is but would be interested to see it in the flesh and moving.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Allen
QUOTE (Basilisk @ Jan 7 2007, 07:16 PM)
Finally, I am curious to know what Liz Allen means why she says people don't want Minstril lines as they want a 'clean pedigree': is this some suggestion of something less than desirable in his ancestry?

Keren
*



Hi Basilik

There is a horse in R.Ali's pedigree which there was some debate on its purity. I can't remember which horse, however there was a thread not so long ago, regarding this line and Middle Eastern breeders not wanting it.
If you do a search on the website it should come up. There are also western breeders around who won't include this line in their breeding progran for this reason alone. Personally I would need more reasons than this to not use a particular line.
I hope this helps.

Liz
PGD
Liz, if I'm not mistaken, the "problem" was not with Ruminaja Ali, but rather with The Minstril's dam, *Bahila. She traces back to Nasrulla (sp?), and I think that was the horse in question. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember. I don't know of any problem with Ruminaja Ali's pedigree or purity.

Best regards,

Nancy P.
Bandit
Nasralla 1956 gray, the sire of AK Hamida, Baheia in Bahilas pedigree and in the pedigrees of some Non-Nazeer horses and others not mentioned of course.
Nasralla is by Balance and out of Sehr. Sehr is by El Nasser and his sire and dam ,as far as AHA is concerned are DB.
Sehrs dam is Salwa by Ibn Rabdan and out of Bint Rustem tracing to Venus by A Hadban Enzahiyah-1880
Think Nasralla is not pure? Go try and buy a New sE Non-Nazeer bred horse.
Take your life savings with ya', youll need it.
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