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caszan2
Greetings All,

In yet another attempt to learn from so many active in this forum. What faults did these champion horses have (no horse is perfect) that would carry on, perhaps several generations on? What should I look for in my Stallion (because I am not an expert). This is my first Arabian horse, a SE and I am trying to learn about breed standard what is or is not acceptable.

Example: What is "cow-hocked" What break-down would it cause and how much "turn" in is too much (touching each other I imagine sad.gif I understand what "off-set" cannons are, "back-at-the-knee" and how to meassure for a balanced horse via Richard Shrake (Western QH judge/breeder).

Our boy was what I would call "slightly" turned in at the hocks, but his feet had not been properly trimmed, allowed the rear toe to grow too long. Our farrier stated that this is "common" in Arabian horses. He has kept all his feet at approperate angles "Trimmed to the horse" for what is natural. I would welcome some opinions on this as well. Should a correct SE have a longer toe in the rear?

Because I am new to this, I would welcome a discussion or advise on Joints, my horse has big joints (no creaking sounds yet) biggrin.gif Is this normal? I have owned about every other breed possible heavier breeds that naturally had more muscling, less "visable" joints.

Here is the sire line and dam sire lines of my horse:
What faults (published or "saw it for myself") did any of these horses have?

Sabiell (heard he was "Long in the back"...but a decent mover")
Nabiel
*Sakr+++
*Sultann
Sameh
El Moez
(to Rabdan)

Dam Sire line
Theegyptianprince
*Morafic
Nazeer
Mashour

There are many others in the pedigree Sire of Dam's are not all listed here.
There are two horses that I can't find much information on An Monte Cristo
Fa-Seer (I think he was Babson)? Both on bottom of Dam's Dam line.

Thanks again for the education!
Caszan2
MAXHOPEMIME
Caszan2
I LIKE YOU. You ask honest ernest questions!
Please do not get taken aback by some of the responses you may receive.
At times it gets a little spicy on here.

It has toned down quite a bit now that the flame throwing guests have to log on like the rest of us laugh.gif

Diane will be able to help you with Arabian conformation questions she has oodles of research.

For IMO an unbiased opinion Hansi is the person to ask about the true physical and temperment aspects of most if not all of the horses on your list.
She has had personal contact with each or their ancestors.

One more thing that is very very helpful. Is the search option on the tool bar at the top of this page. Just type in who or what you are curious about and presto! All of the archived discussions are there to read.

Sincerely
Chris
MAXHOPEMIME
One thing I know is Yes! BIg Joints not fleshy or meaty but well defined are most desireable.
Sorry about my diction and typing its been a long day.
C
caszan2
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the gentle reminder of how it gets in this Forum wink.gif And the obvious navigation... I've only been " evesdropping" for a few days prior to joining. My time is limited and of course I now know so much more than 3-4 days ago! I am in awe of the many people involved who give sooo generously of their time, knowledge and often, kindness and understanding.

The facination of this breed does truly unite Nations...

I was just reading a facinating post #81 I think, but really am not sure.
Liz Solomon (sp?)..gave an unbelievable example, charts, strain coded pedigrees
Physical "this and that" and why it effects the going of a horse. Not everyone coming to this site has time, opportunity nor resources to devote for proper study and just as important to the non-breeder the emotional aspects of owning a SE, Because of my attempts in strain research for my Stallion, if "Strains" are to be believed, then the description of a Seqlawi Jidran Ibn Sudan fits him to a tee. During the first 6 months of his ownership I took notes, because he did things, reacted in situations that were "thought out"...not just a trail horse used to what was expected which had been my experience, never the real mental connection that formed so quickly with him. He is one of the best "communicators" I've ever owned.

My stallion, like so many others described, is very sensitive. Not to the point of being a danger to himself or others, he is sane, very sane. It is just understanding how horses communicate, but especially the breeding that created the Asil horse, acutely attuned to it's enviroment, master and what if any effect those "strains" have on the Arabian of today.

I've received some PM's that were so considerate and helpful and gratefully appreciated. It's not easy to be a Newbie, you are in awe of the horses themselves, how they have changed any "Pre-conceived" notions about Arabians. I unfortunately for me, have many friends who won't even look at my horse because it's a "Crazy Arab" After a few years now I just smile with a crooked grin and a raised eyebrow...because I know a horse that no other is like in their breed. They just are not capable of connecting with something that is capable of maintaining a 50/50 relationship (with that 51/49 split)! cool.gif Dispite the "spice"..which is fine so long as it remains "welcoming" can only serve to preserve, study, research and enjoy the SE of today.

Thanks for your comments,
Caszan2
diane
Hello Caszan2

First off, I tend to analyse rather than compare to a standard and I am a "lay-person" ie no professional qualifications other than personal experience with my own and other horses smile.gif To my mind, ie mho, standards are somewhat superficial and definitely man-made even if done so with the best intentions. Reality is the horse itself. Review how your horse stands and moves. If it isn’t interfering with itself in movement then that is the bonus. But for the best of results for the individual themselves, they need to move cleanly and efficiently with minimum effort and zero pain.

Per your example - cow hocks … the easiest assessment for true cow hocks is when the hind canons are not parallel to each other. The whole issue of cow hocks is that the hindquarter, from behind, forms an X shape. Bad cow hocks is when the hocks brush (interfere with each other) causing momentary delays within an individual stride of any gait. As you can imagine, if a horse is truly cow hocked, then no one bone bears the individual’s body weight properly and this is the weakness, the fault. It does not allow the horse to function properly, particularly under duress. That is, the individual with bad cow hocks will be more prone to break down when worked under duress. An individual with true cow hocks might find it harder to do what might be considered the easiest of tasks.

What is NOT cow hocks is when the canons run parallel to each other and the hooves and stifles turn out and the hocks turn in at compensating angulations (seen more readily from behind). When an individual has this conformation in conjunction with a compact body and tight loin, then they will be more than likely really good movers. Few longer bodied (including loin) individuals have this type of hindquarter.

When an individual has “inline” hooves, hocks and stifles (facing forward and back; no obvious compensating angulations in or out) then they will more than likely have shallower flanks and perhaps length in their loins to be effective and easy movers. Otherwise they will be clipping their front legs in some manner depending on how they actually travel, how long their hooves are and how fit they are.

Longer toes at the rear – wouldn’t be recommended, though some lines do have this tendancy ie to grow length in their toes (front of their hooves) but not considered as flat-footed. Your farrier, if they know their job well, will advise you well on this aspect. A long toe (front and/or back) equals the more effort for the individual to move efficiently when the individual is in motion. The actual time to lift the hoof off the ground is longer and more effort is needed. It is harder work for them, uncomfortable for them. Think how hard it is or would be to work with long fingernails… same principle applies to the horse’s hoof. Too short is not good either. Trust your farrier, if not – choose a farrier with a good reputation if possible. By all means, discuss the situation with your farrier and vet. Overall, the hoof should be the end result of the entire limb. Don’t trim the hoof as a separate identity – it is part, the final part, of the entire leg (which ever leg).

Joints, particularly in the Arabian, can be considered good if “large”. Front knees are considered very good if they can be described as “large and flat” like a shield. Joints should be free of lumps and bumps and move freely as required without any looseness about the joint.

Perhaps a look at some of the descriptions of ancestors of your horse via this link… snippets from Authentic Arabian Bloodstock II (sE.com) though do consider how the authors use the “fault” statements. Some might not be as “faulty” per the actual horses functionality. Most faults are generated per comparison to perfection. No individual horse is perfect.
Webpage may also help with these and other thoughts you may have about conformation interpretation.
Liz Salmon
One of the best things to do is to sit at the ringside with a knowledgeable person who can quietly and discreetly point out conformational assets and defects. I also like to wander around a pasture full of horses and stop and assess each one. I often have students in the ring with me at an open or schooling show. I discovered after teaching a judging class at University for 6 years that not everyone has an eye to judge conformation.

Cowhocks are very common in the breed, particularly with young horses. As the gaskin muscles develop it does tend to improve.
LMGG
Hello:

There has been the argument, that horses working cattle or performing in reining classes, do a bit better when slightly cow hocked (all other things being equal) when they sit down in the slide or the sudden stop, so that they don't interfer by clipping the front feet - I don't know if this is true, but one of my cowhorses was slightly cow hocked and the other was not and both were excellant working cattle.

I have had at least one horse with very straight legs front and back, but a very short back and he had a tendency to interfer (clipping his front feet with the back ones) and that was a bit of a shoeing problems. Gelded him even though he was exquisitely pretty -he was also a bit too upright in the pasterns which gave a teeth chattering ride at the trot. Certainly one of the reasons to put a breeding stallion under saddle.

As with people, who are athletes, horses who are used in performance classes, whether cattle work, hunter/jumpers, endurance classes, also get soreness, tendon problems and arthritis from concussive activities, so it is best to start with as good legged animals as one can get.

I agree with Liz, that it helps to have someone sit ringside and advise you, but you may also want to go to as many performance shows as possible to see which lines have descendents which are performance horses (cow, hunter/jumper, dressage) or look to the endurance people who need horses which stay sound and good minded.

There is nothing like spending the money to buy and train a horse, one liked because one liked the pedigree or thought he/she was pretty and find that the horse doesn't stay sound, or is sillier than a bedbug, or feels like a car without shock absorbers to make one rethink one's priorities. Therefore, it is sometimes better to start with breeders, both backyard or with a large operation who put their horses under saddle when looking for stock.

LMG (aka LMGG)
caszan2
Greetings,
Thank you all so much for this information, which really just confirms what my experience has been with other breeds. Regarding "cow hocks"..The detailed explaination of how the angulations effects loin. That was very enlightning.


I also own a Half-Arabian mare that is sired by Nazim Halima. Bottom side is line bred Peppy San breeding QH. She is stunning and has the best confirmation that I've ever seen. She is a rocket on 4 legs, drops down so low in a full gallop, with a stride that is amazing considering her height (14.3hh). Very full, well sprung through rib to loin. Her neck and chest are very nice. She is short backed (we know she has 6 vertibrae) Excellent hip, she has slightly angled (I will call it angled hocks). She is a finished reining horse, team penner, hunt horse (shoot off her back). I have always felt that if she did not have such an "angle" to the hock, she would not be able to perform as she does.
She can stop from full, low gallop inches from a fence, come up off the ground and pivot on one hind leg. She is famous for her "box" turns. Without some angulation in this most improtant joint, I think there would be a higher potintial for injury to the hock, a slight angulation would only make sense.

We have a good farrier and I've tried them all near our location, let's just say it's been an experience finding a good farrier. our farrier believes in a natural foot, trims on a strict schedule. Our Stallion had always been trimmed but by his owner, not a certified farrier. His back feet needed frequient trims initally, however after a short time, his feet meet the "angles" of the horse. He does not need shoes even on limerock roads. Never had an issue with any hoof issues.

I've experienced negative ideas about owning an Arabian horse from less learned individuals because of "horror" storied, and "my firends Arabian tried to kill her"...I've learned to look beyond this and just trust my "gut" where our Stallion has been concerned. Our mare is SE on her sire side, she exhibits the same personality, stamina, bold spirit, forgiving and understand that he presents.
She too goes to Morafic, Nazeer and Anasta Ibn Halima Nazim Pasha (who is not in stallion pedigree). But, the same SE temperment and emotional stability is exhibited in both horses. smile.gif

One last thought, When shown the mare mentioned above for purchase; she was allowed to gallop full out in a large arena. Then the owner took me over to her hoof marks left in the ground. He showed me how we could only see two prints off set from each other. He then took out a measuring tape and we could clearly see that the hind foot landed into the front hoof pattern with less than a 1/4" difference, no over reach, not too far behind. He then did measurments of her body and showed me that she was in fact 1/4" off in her measurements. I am self-taught in everything horse, I can heal the most injured horse with Vet direction and have done rescue for 5 years. My husband and I had decided to "pay forward" all of our blessings and chose horses for this endevor.

However; I do not know horse confirmation other than some basics.
This Forum has been a significant help in that area and many others. So, thanks again for being so considerate and helpful to a newbie, non-breeder. Horses are Gifts..from above. From that childhood facination, something you are born feeling, it's real and SE's make us feel more complete. It's best to always remember that we are the Keepers,...they our blessing and gift and never forget to be thankful for what you have been given.

Thanks,
Caszan2
caszan2
Greetings,

I've found photos of one SE filly (nearly a mare in age) As an example for study.

Let's just go over her 1. confirmation
2, opinions of her look. 3. What one likes and dislikes about this lovely lady. She appears to be too short in the neck?

I'll identify her..later.
Thanks,
Caszan

PS Will remove photos as I could not find any credits, I would only want to give credit where credit is due.
2mntn
Caszan2,

Well now, if this is not an invitation to "open mouth and insert foot', I don't know what would be! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

However, since you asked....first thing, in-motion shots are terrible to use for evaluation of conformation. What is best are still, natural poses from the side, front and rear on level, bare ground. But I'm stating the obvious.

I have a Polish mare, who was described to me as a 16 hand horse on 14.2 legs. This mare you've pictured gives me that same impression. Two of these shots give me the impression of a slightly long back. The third shot, her back looks just right. Also, not enough bend at the poll and neck possibly underslung a bit.

What's to like? Lovely head for her age, great tail carriage, power-house body with tremendous hip, croup, gaskin and shoulder. And an obvious "attitude". biggrin.gif

To carry this one step further, I would look for a tall, elegant, fine-featured stallion for her mate. biggrin.gif

Best regards,
Ray
caszan2
Greetings!

For Ray: Thanks for your insight. You are of course correct that only natural, standing photos should be used, frankly these photos are what we have to work with wink.gif "in the flesh" is best...but all I have to work with are the only photos that I can find of this mare anywhere online (sadly with no photo credits).
You really hit-home on what I wanted, an honest opinion and I saw more not-so-positive things after you shared your views, because I'm the student... smile.gif

This is an "obscure" lady, she is one of only a very, very few of her sires daughters. Frankly the only photos of his get online that I have been able to view. Other photos of the daughters may exist, one site Googled would not load.


I will continue to search...

In General:
Where I am going with this is I want to understand what I should expect foals I might breed for to look like, perform as etc..with the emphasis of preservation of the best of the best atributes..(althought I don't think the sire lines involved are anything rare, I am still learning about the lines) I want to Learn. I want to know what a good Straight Performance Egyptian should be, yeah that's right I want to be in the SPE club biggrin.gif !. I for one cannot even consider breeding our Stallion to any breed unless I know it can perform, do it with style, please and be sane enough to have a good career, pain free life with a loving family where it will live out it's long days, not in pain, not broken down, because of a choice I made.

I guess I just want to know what I'm getting into and get it right.. if-you-will but do so EDUCATED...it's that simple or I will not breed any SE or SE sired get, cross breeds etc., which can only stand in a show ring regardless of the level of the event: 4-H to EE..whatever..shaved, dripping in oil, intimidated or drugged..struggling to "stand" on clubbed hind feet with really bad legs.. too short of this or too much of that. The perfect horse has yet to be foaled. But, anyone and I don't care who you are if you care for a horse in general, you better do the best you can in YOUR creation. These are my opinions...I'm passionate about what I love..
I'll now desend from my Newbie Soap box.

I've received a fair amount of information on bloodlines that concern the sire line I have been researching...mind you starting from ground zero, but God willing I'll get there biggrin.gif

Basic confirmation is just that basic, SE's have their own breed standard. I am taking a "crash" course because I have decisions to make. I have a Stallion, which is great to me, but that's because he deserves to be appreciated. He will probably not see a show ring in his life, because I have not decided yet what our (partnership) next step might be.

I've been "observing" a very short time, vast amounts of information, light years of research for the small owner/breeder, can be gleaned from this forum. that is the catagory I would fit into if I choose to breed. I greatly appreciate any information...positive or negative. To some viewers I will ask "silly" or not-so-important questions. I will continue, as I've already heard..to ask honest, earnest questions.

Thank you all for being considerate enough to enlighten me, I honestly do appreciate all of your comments, pro or con. I'm am grateful for what I have learned and will continue to learn in this Forum.
Thanks,
Caszan2
diane
smile.gif when reading The detailed explaination of how the angulations effects loin ~ realistically by nature - its the other way round... the loin affects the angulations. If the loin is short and the hindquarter, particularly if the femur is a fair length (the most noticable part of this bone is the stifle joint); the body barrel is wide (well sprung ribs) and could be considered compact overall, then the individual really does need to have angulations within the hind leg which has the stifle turning out, the hocks turning in and the hoof turning out. This angulation can be minute to noticable but its rarely extreme. The MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE is that the canons run parallel. There should be no deviation in the canons. The longer the body and/or loin; shorter the femur then the need for noticable angulation of this kind is not as readily required. When this angulation folds then it folds according to the bones' governances - they don't move "straight" as taught by most folk.

The horse rules - it moves the best and most efficient way it can.

I'm sure some folks confuse cow hocks with good angulations - depending on how a horse is built as an individual. Having non-parallel canons (cow hocks (X)) is a weakness. I'm also sure, no reiner would want this weakness in their horse.

Exceptions rule.

Lori (Lorrilee) - can you remember or is the individual with you to check on their canons? I would have suggested that Arabians were more well angled in this scenario than actually being cow hocked. However, I have seen (with much dismay) an individual(s) not so long ago within specific bloodlines who was clearly cow-hocked.

Pictures tell a portion of the story. Anyone serious about conformation analysis should, if possible go and see the individual. The next alternative is to have the individual stand naturally and photos taken from both sides plus front and back. With other photos taken of each leg from the very top of the leg (include the spine) also from the side as well as the front. Motion shots - a series of shots best covering the angles suggested in the still shots would be best. However, any clever (term used loosely) photography work can mask attributes / actions.

Want to know something? Everyone goes looking for faults when they view a horse. The horse as an individual is rarely looked at to see / work out what works for that individual. Folk are too busy comparing the individual to one idealism or another. Most horses are not technically ideal but are realistically ideal for a function or more they can excel in. wink.gif

ps... the sE is governed by the Arabian Standard. It does however, as a sub-group of the modern purebred breed with consideration to its pedigree, show a great deal of variation to the technical ideal.
anitae
Last February at the Symposium sponsored by the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse, Dr. John Shelle (Michigan State University equine program) made a point that really hit home for me:

When evaluating a horse, look at the GOOD POINTS, and make sure, when considering a mating, that the mate is likely to reinforce (or at least not diminish) those strong points. THEN, look at the faults and consider a mate that might improve ONE fault. It is his experience that you are unlikely to fix more than one fault in any given mating.

Anita
caszan2
Hi,
Thanks so much for your expllanation and for the links!!!
This is very, very helpful.
Best regards,
Caszan2
caszan2
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the joint info..his are large not meaty, clearly large and flat. One member sent a fantastic link about confirmation. Really helped a great deal. This should be a Newbie required read if they are honest and explain that they are new to the breed.

Everyone has been so helpful. Many thanks.
Caszan2
2mntn
Caszan2,

Well, I reserve the right to change my mind and reverse my position 180. Which is entirely possible if the horse is seen in person, or at least some better shots. smile.gif

I am hoping that some of these other folks will jump in here with some opinions of this mare. I like to have comparative views to sort of "test my vision".

Might be pointless, but fun, to try to guess what bloodlines this mare might possess. If I had to take a shot at it, I would say *Malik and/or possibly Pharrah might be found in the pedigree.

OK - somebody stomp on me! tongue.gif

Regards,
Ray
2mntn
Caszan2,

Darn, I forgot the important part! tongue.gif I very much enjoyed reading your views - your passion for the horses is obvious. (I feel for ya! wink.gif ) But seriously, don't be too harsh in evaluating your stallion until you see some babies on the ground, from several different mares and then some years for them to develop. Takes a long, LONG time. The unfortunate by-product is less-than-desirable offspring. No other way to "get there", however.

Remember - several of the planet's most potent equine sires were the most unlikely looking scoundrels with questionable backgrounds! laugh.gif

Best wishes,
Ray
caszan2
Hi Ray,
Not even close...at least not in the sire I am researching...and I'm with ya, some others could really assist us. I really expected everyone to be more "lion hearted".... smile.gif

Hint:
One of the daughters of the sire I am researching has gone "home".....
One daughter might be used for "working cattle all day long"..in South America..
There appears to be only one son living in the US...
Egyptian Sired get do exist...but very few and none are in the US.

Observation: I am surprised at the "depth" of body on this mare..not at all what I expected to see. I like Ray's suggestion that she is like a 16hh on 14.2hh legs...

Curious?
Thanks,
Caszan
caszan2
Hi Ray,
Thanks so much, I like you, you are Lion hearted! Willing to take an educated guess. When I reveal the sire in question...I hope to receive information that I have longed for...

I agree about getting babies on the ground. The first owners of my Stud did not breed to any Arabians Se or otherwise..only to 4 Appaloosa mares and he threw all filly's...so far 100% now that would be a comidity if the lines are desirable.
but sadly none were registered and I've only seen photos (just this week!). But from the photos my stallion really puts on amazing refinement. More on that later..

I'm still trying to find photos of the only other fillys/mares I am aware of. One might be a dead giveaway..so her image must wait a bit longer..just to see wink.gif

Thanks Ray,
Caszan2
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