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Ladypurr
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Good day, People!

I just had to share this with everyone. Even if you've seen it before, it captures your heart and holds you messmerized!

Enjoy the most talented, the most enthusiastic, the most incredible dressage pair I've ever witnessed. I had tears in my eyes and wanted to stand up and cheer!

It's a YouTube video and if you can't access it here, just go to YouTube and search the word "dressage".

Click and let your heart be filled with joy! http://beboframe.com/FlashFrame.jsp?Size=S...oxId=3309347442

--Susan biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
peter
I absolutely agree. Andreas gave a fantastic performance and Matine is a marvellous horse !!

Peter
C_Ma
This is maybe the 10.000 times I watch this video, and it just keeps bringing tears to my eyes! They are simply giving an AMAZING performance!!

They were suppose to have started at the finals at the World Cup in Las Vegas this weekend, but unfortunally Matiné didnt pass the vet check. Really a shame since they both worked so hard to get this far... sad.gif
Ladypurr
Oh, that's incredibly sad to hear. I hope and pray she's not sidelined for long.

I'm certainly no expert when it comes to dressage, but I carefully noted many wonderful attributes of this mare. She was so focused and yet so free and full of enthusiasm. Every execution was perfection! Her transitions, her piaffe and passage, her fantastic pirouttes and the amazing lengthing of stride and overall smoothness just made her performance something to behold. If ever a horse and rider became "one", it was Matine' and Andreas. She truly was "dancing".

I absolutely loved Andreas' affectionate and enthusiastic hug at the conclusion of their performance!

I hope everyone takes a moment to watch this video. What these beautiful creatures can accomplish with love and expert guidance is nothing short of sensational.

I would love to see more Arabians involved in dressage for they bring to this discipline a natural brilliance that begs to be polished to perfection. They are so light and airy and naturally-gifted movers so dressage is a wonderful way to allow them to shine. It ain't half bad for the riders, either!

Few disciplines can match the beauty of two talented performers working in perfect unison in dressage!

--Susan biggrin.gif
Marilee
This ride was discussed on another thread, and then also compared to the lady on the bay horse, who ultimately won. The grey mare was sired by an Arabian son (warmblood sired). I'd be very interested in what Arabian blood was in there. She is very nice, and moves beautifully. Some posters did prefer the bay horse to her; I did not. I found the bay horse stiff and artificial. Some judged the grey mare's tail movement against her score. She was only 9 I believe. Some thought her too advanced for only 9. We also discussed the rollkur and if it was used on her; really seemed to show effect on the bay horse in my opinion. Anyway, when I posted before, I said how she sure showed the Arabian in her presence and energy and engagement and lightness. Thanks for reminding me of her. The rider seems very skilled to me. The rider on the bay seems more harsh and less subtle in her cues. What do you dressage lovers think, comparing these 2 rides?
Al Sahrae Arabians
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chaswyckcaliph
Incredibly beautiful!

Imagine the hours that must have gone into such a partnership. One can only dream and continue to strive towards a similar goal.

Magnificent.
Ladypurr
Dear Marilee,

Thank you for sharing this information. Not being involved in the dressage world anymore, I had no idea what "rollkur" meant so I investigated. Boy! Did I get an a quick education!

For those of you not familiar with this "new" and controversial training method, click here: http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/rollkur.htm

Reading about this makes me just so disheartened. What is different from forcing a horse into this frame for dressage and putting draw reins on a western horse and and pulling his head to his chest. Imagine the strain on the horse's back and body in general having to canter or lope in this manner?

What are we doing to these creatures?

I watched a little of Anky's performance on the bay horse and I saw a noticeable difference between her horse and Matine'. By far, Matine' portrayed a much more pleasing image. Andreas was much lighter and more imperceptable in his aids as well.

If only these dressage experts could take one--just one!--lesson from Col. Alois Podhasky! He always stressed, "...above all, be KIND to your horses."

--Susan sad.gif
Ladypurr
How could such a spell-binding dressage performance give way to such a dark and questionable training controvery? I had no idea this was taking place.

I found a letter that Walter Zettl sent to a German dressage magazine. I had the good fortune of watching this marvelous man give a brief dressage training exhibition at the WEstern States Horse Expo a few years ago. I never forgot it! Imagine a Thoroughbred, Warmblood and a cowboy and his little Quarter Horse mare all together doing basic dressage movements? It was great!

Walter Zettl is a true horseman and a fine human being!

Click to read his letter: http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/german_stgeorge.html

--Susan wink.gif
Cautzar
I've seen this clip several times now and I'm moved to tears EVERYTIME!

I've never seen anything like it, it's absolutly fantastic and without comparison.

She is the prove that hoses can dance.

Kind regards

Gitte ( a proud Dane )
Alexa73
Matine is absolutely incredible. Here 2 pictures from Wiesbaden last year. In the background you can see the scores they got for the passage!!!

Alex
paelmchen
Matine is spectacular, but what I miss is her supplenes(relaxation), she always seems to be under to much tension.
A sign for to much tension is her tail turning around like a helicopter.

Iīve been at Aachen 2006, saw almost all of them live in the dressage arena, Matine will have a great future, but anyway the best ride I have ever seen was Isabell &Satchmo at Aachen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdP0xL2qtAM

a nearly perfect lecture.................
Janina
I really like this mare, because she is extremly talented, has incredible movements and presence!

BUT I agree with "paelmchen" that the performance lacks relaxation (I donīt know if there exists a better word for it). There are some parts in the performance where you can see, that it is not as "perfect" as it seems at first glance.
Beside her permanent moving tail, she shows rhythm-mistakes in walk (at all her walk is not that brilliant) and I do not at all like her "piaffe". It is more a "passage on the spot" than a true piaffe.
I dare not to judge what are the reasons for that: Maybe itīs just her age and she will improve or it is the way she was trained...
But one should not be distracted by the talent of the horse, when it is about evaluating the whole performance... (Iīm astonished that the commentators obviously were rolleyes.gif )
Werthīs performance I didnīt like either. She is showing all the exercises, but her horseīs nose is all of the time behind the vertical.
Many greetings,
Janina
Kathrin K.I.M.
I have to say that I don't like Isabell Werth at all. I think there are much more better riders out there but she regularly wins just because of her name. But enough of her.

I liked Matine a lot! She's marvelous! I also have to negate Janina - I think her Piaffe was good. Piaffe is defined as a trotting movement at the stand. She did it and also she did lift her hind lags really good off the ground, something other horses don't do.

Kathrin laugh.gif
Marilee
The newspaper yesterday said that Anky (the rider on the bay horse on that link to youtube under the grey mare' s video) is out of competition due to the birth of her child, and that Blu Hors Mantine (the grey mare) was slightly injured in the trailer on the way to the show across town here; Was sound going one way, not going the other, so she is out of the local show, per the vet who checked her.

A poster on another website said she too was used with rollkur???I could see it in the bay, who won the last year's competition. But can you see it in the grey too?..., maybe that is the lack of relaxation and the tail movement; she is not refusing, she is just not------. So if she was used with the rollkur, I don't know, because her ride seemed pretty good-----The bay horse looked stiff and harsh (in the cues and response to them), so I could see the rollkur there, but again this is all heresay and guessing. I agree that you would think in the upper levels of the sport that if they are using shortcuts???? mad.gif Years ago when we were just starting even before we got our Egyptian Arabian stallion and were taking dressage lessons, we were told maybe one level a year in advancement and growth, barring injuries. Our horse was so athletic and smart and responsive, and we would NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS, our mentor (Than Hanchett who rode in Europe, and who taught us all we know about training and dressage since 1978) said the talent of that horse could move along faster than one level a year.

But if Mantine is only 8 or 9, and IF they used shortcuts on her to get her to that level, that is the point if she can stay sound. Most dressage horses really come into their own in their teens; look at the Lippizan horses who spend most of their youth in training with their riders, and only at maturity, years later are they shown at the higher levels. The Andalusian horses and others I have seen here in Las Vegas like at Cheval and Cavalia, ..the other breeds were younger horses shown at one point in their training, and the older horses were shown at another point in their advanced training.

That is what so concerns me when I go to a show and see all the short cuts in the horses under saddle--draw reins, tie downs, harsh bits and spurs, tight martingales. I know that all aids are only usually as severe as the rider that can uses them in a mean or abusive way, but it still sends a message to the beginner that you must use these to get that result. I will go to the Vegas show in a few hours, and will be really interested in the result obtained (in halter and in performance) at what expense to the horse. We always believed that less is more. If the rider/handler is experienced and knows their horse, and wants fewer/no injuries, there should be fewer or no shortcuts.

You are making me think again!!!! Thanks. biggrin.gif (PS--I did ask for dressage/jumping/endurance/trail as demos at the show---no answer--we'll see what I find out when I go down there. PSS--I have given maps and invitations to the show and the Egyptian meeting Saturday night to my whole class here at school and put ads for them in the newspaper. Haven't seen anything else publicity wise. A friend of mine said there was coverage (live photo shoot early this morning from the World Cup Dressage/Jumping) on tv this morning. Marilee in Las Vegas
paelmchen
Critical point referring to Isabellīs ride: Satchmo is a bit behind the vertical, thatīs true.

But when you look at the transitions, nearly perfect, the travers in trot smile.gif the best I have ever seen.

You may like here or not, here riding art is outstanding and this ride gave me goosebumps.

Isabell always believed in Satchmo, although until to Aachen he was a difficult horse, but she trusted him, and in Aachen it was time to show their partnership.

ciao roland palm
LoLoXLC
Concerning Rollkur and the way Anky is riding have a look at this site. Download (right click, save as) the video called Salinero_Briar on the bottom right side of the page and watch it until the very end. ph34r.gif

You must be patient as the video takes a long time to download but it's really worth watching...
LoLoXLC
QUOTE (Marilee @ Apr 20 2007, 01:09 AM)
The grey mare was sired by an Arabian son (warmblood sired). I'd be very interested in what Arabian blood was in there.
*


Here's a part of her pedigree which I found:


Click to view attachment
paelmchen
Click to view attachment

ph34r.gif ph34r.gif ph34r.gif
paelmchen
Anky at Aachen 2006................no comment blink.gif

Click to view attachment
LoLoXLC
I think I will never understand this way of riding...

Klick!

Klick!

Klick!

The first pic is Salinero in Aachen 2006 and the second shows him in Athens 2004 and the third was taken in Lingen 2006.
Janina
QUOTE (Kathrin K.I.M. @ Apr 20 2007, 06:45 PM)
I liked Matine a lot! She's marvelous! I also have to negate Janina - I think her Piaffe was good. Piaffe is defined as a trotting movement at the stand. She did it and also she did lift her hind lags really good off the ground, something other horses don't do.
*


I donīt know after which definition you jugde, but the Piaffe is actually defined as a trotlike movement while carrying most of the weight on the hindlegs. If a horse is showing a correct piaffe, it will just NOT lift is hindlegs very high (it canīt because there is more weight on them). In my personal opinion that is a common misunderstanding of this exercise. A correct(!) Piaffe is more than "trot on the spot" wink.gif
But donīt get me wrong: Itīs nothing against that horse: As I said, I think she is great and if trained on correctly, we might see her in a brilliant piaffe one day smile.gif

QUOTE (paelmchen @ Apr 20 2007, 10:48 PM)
Critical point referring to Isabellīs ride: Satchmo is a bit behind the vertical, thatīs true.

But when you look at the transitions, nearly perfect, the travers in trot smile.gif  the best I have ever seen.

You may like here or not, here riding art is outstanding and this ride gave me goosebumps.

Isabell always believed in Satchmo, although until to Aachen he was a difficult horse, but she trusted him, and in Aachen it was time to show their partnership.

ciao roland palm
*


Again as I said: She is showing all the exercises correctly and I completly agree with you on the transitions. But I canīt let this head- and neck-position be uncritizised, for it is unhealthy for the horse and if thatīs not reason enough, it is extremly against the "rules" which say a horse has to be at or better before the vertical. So Iīm not willing to speak of such a presantion as "riding art". It was a good presantation, but with a very obvious weakness. She correctly won this competition, but it was nothing that delighted me.
But of course that is subjective and you might see this differently, thatīs okay smile.gif
By the way: I saw her riding a few times (in Frankfurt and in Wiesbaden last year) and she is always very tense when riding (not during the competition, that would be understandable, but even at the preparation-place). Look at her muscles of mastication (is this the right expression?) the next time you see her riding...
And itīs nothing personal (how could it be, I donīt know her biggrin.gif ). Itīs nice, that she believed in her horse, but I donīt know how much "publicity" is behind such stories cool.gif
Here is another really interesting site about dressage, collection and that "rollkur-theme":
www.sustainabledressage.com
Many greetings,
Janina
Carol Cooper-Hall
QUOTE (Ladypurr @ Apr 19 2007, 02:41 PM)
biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif

Good day, People!

I just had to share this with everyone.  Even if you've seen it before, it captures your heart and holds you messmerized!

Enjoy the most talented, the most enthusiastic, the most incredible dressage pair I've ever witnessed.  I had tears in my eyes and wanted to stand up and cheer!

It's a YouTube video and if you can't access it here, just go to YouTube and search the word "dressage".

Click and let your heart be filled with joy!  http://beboframe.com/FlashFrame.jsp?Size=S...oxId=3309347442

--Susan biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
*
Hello Susan
THANK YOU so much for sharing this video with us. It's a GREAT video and agree, it's keeps you mesmerized. What a FABULOUS pair they make!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Cheers,
Carol
DRPS
Janina
I do totally agree with you regarding the piaffe....but you won't find one of these horses...(Kyra Kyrklund is one of the few who are trying to work their horses the old way) doing it like they used to do it a hundred years ago...because those highbreed horses with those movements, higher, faster, bigger, simply aren't able to do it the way like classical breeds are able to do it (at least seldomly)....and I've given up a long time ago to mess with the things that are done at big competitions or at a high international/national level...

I liked Isabells ride because of the dynamic, powerful and strong performance...the back was working...even if the horse was tense, and therefore a bit behind the vertical...but if you know Satchmo you know, that it was "art" to keep him this way... I liked her traversals and the pirouettes weren't that bad...for me the right pair won...even if I'm also no real fan of her...

thank you for providing us with this link...I've had a look at this page.

Nice, interesting but nothing new...but for my opinion not very helpful, but extreme...especially regarding people who are not very experiencend and which do have a lack of "the right eye"...because some of the photos are a bit overstated...and simply wrong defined...I always hate judging via foto....although I really respect her for doing all this...I hope at least some are going to understand...

First I would like to say that I do not believe in the "roll-kur"..more or less I abominate this kind of training...I try to work my horses strictly after the "old" rules, there is nothing to invent...and I refuse to work young horses like they were trained up to the highest level...especially regarding extensions etc.

but I do think that to "open" the back it is essential to work your horse down and forward...and for some reasons (differs from horse to horse) it is sometimes very use- and helpful to work the horse slightly a bit sideways while working it down and forward...but these kind of "helpful moves" should always only be used for a short instance...and are of course only to be used by experienced riders, who (this should go without saying, but doesn't in most cases and this is the problem) do know about the horses body, muscles "architecture" if you want to say so...and about it's coherences....that is the main problem...

But I've also met "classical" trainers who refuse to work the horse over the back, even in a normal way...for them the main thing is only to hold the nose high...and those pictures are at least as painful to watch as the ones from the "roll-kur"...

The main thing is that a lot of people doesn't want to work hard with the horses to get this kind of perfection, we are all searching for...and are always searching for another "guru" who brings them the enlightenment...but the truth is...there is none...there's nothing to invent...just work your horse the way that it can carry you for ages on a health back....

only my humble opinion tongue.gif

Regards
Denise
paelmchen
Nothing is more important then the correct riding over the back, activating the hindlegs !


The nowadays horses can not be trained like those 100 years ago, thatīs true, but there is still one rule by Xenophon that exists today:


“Anything forced or misunderstood can never be beautiful. If a dancer was forced to dance by whip and spike, he would be no more beautiful than a horse trained under similar conditions”

That is a good comparison, i know it from my profession biggrin.gif

ciao roland palm
DRPS
This goes without saying....and there is nothing more to say wink.gif

Have a nice day!
Denise
Ladypurr
Dear Roland,

Thank you for sharing those wonderful words of wisdom from Xenophon. I've yet to read his book. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

So many books, so little time sad.gif

--Susan wink.gif
Eyegor
Did anyone go to Las Vegas to see the world cup Dressage competition.

We did and it was certainly well worth the admission........

Thursday noon to ~ did not stick around for the final presentations but the event, by announced point standings was won by Isabell Werth riding Warum Nicht and followed by Mr. Peters of the US.

There were some magical rides, passages, beautiful transitions but in my opinion the pirouettes were not World Class.........

Magical afternoon seeing the highest form of horsemanship...certainly a pleasant day.....

I was surprised at some of the riders being extremely active in the saddle, not something I would expect from that level of competition. Am also a bit perturbed about the bouncing heads on some of the riders....like bobble dolls ....can't understand that at all........were I to do that ahorse I would endanger vertigo in my old body.....most likely I would fall off the horse???? don't get it........
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