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Dragon
We have been told that this year in Aachen a person with a whip supplied by the show will be allowed in the ring to aid the horses performance ohmy.gif .
This measure is designed to stop exessive crowd noise but will it ruin the atmosphere
of which Aachen is so famous.
Will it create more conflicts of interest will judges and show organisers breeding managers all promoting their horse take advantage of this advert.
Does the Arabian need somebody with a whip i can see the Arabian critics now saying
we need somebody with a whip in the ring?
We need to breed horses with a natural show not rely on inside the ring assistance.
Exit the Dragon
Guest
This system was tried out at the German Nationals this year. To everyone's surprise, it worked out very well. Young horses are often disturbed by over-enthusiastic grooms waving plastic bags from all directions. With only one person, behing them, they showed themselves much better in Neustadt.

I don't think the Aachen atmosphere is created by shaking plastic bags and rattling tins, but by the clapping and cheering of the crowd. That certainly won't diminish. But the mad banging on the tin roof certainly wasn't atmosphere, it was a deafening din. I certainly don't see why the one-whip system should cause a conflict of interest! I don't think Sheikh Whatsisname would t take he advantage and run behind to do the shaking up, just so everybody knows who the horse belongs to...and if he did, it would be fun to watch tongue.gif ...

As for breeding horses which don't need assistance, that would be nice if we could manage that. But to be honest, ONE single person behind them is a lot less obtrusive that 20 grooms leaning over the sides, waving the bags almost in the horses faces, or whipping madly onto the walls. Because I have seen it so often, especially in Aachen, that horses were shown to a disadvantage by too much shaking (or by shaking from the wrong direction), especially young ones. Particularly when the grooms don't know when to stop!

I am looking forward to seeing how this system works out at a big international show. But don't be too pessimistic before you've tried it! biggrin.gif
Guest
QUOTE (Dragon @ Sep 19 2003, 08:07 AM)
Does the Arabian need somebody with a whip i can see the Arabian critics now saying
we need somebody with a whip in the ring?

P.S. Do you honestly think the "Arabian critics" find our present methods of "hotting horses up" more admirable? laugh.gif
Michelle Salmon
What a silly rule. A big part of showing is all about how the horse performs on the day. If every horse is allowed to have someone in the ring with whip then surely it is going to take away some of this mystery, the mystery being 'is the horse gonna move today or not?'
I can't believe someone passed this rule, yes it does sound silly 'we show our horses and someone runs behind waving a whip to get them moving' I bet the real reason for introducing this is nothing to do with the crowd at all and has more to do with stopping the handlers from running up and down both ways in the trott.
Guest
Funny, before the German Nationals everybody made exactly the same kind of comments about the "ridiculous" system, but after the show they had to admit that the new system worked out much better than they had expected!

Your comments are really quite paradoxical, you say it is ridiculous to have to run behind a horse to get it moving, well do you think that waving around madly with plastic bags, rattling tin cans filled with pebbles or drumming one's feet against tin walls is a more subtle way to wake up a horse? tongue.gif biggrin.gif

Perhaps you should just wait and see, before you call the inventor
stupid. And if you don't like Aachen without deafening din every time a horse tries to trot, perhaps you should stay at home and go to a heavy metal concert instead wink.gif
Dennis
Warmblood breeders show their horses in the same way. So there is nothing to critique.
Delyth
Let's not pass judgment until we have experienced ! Personally I think it may work very well - now armed with Sainsburys carrier bag and sneakers - god help us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laugh.gif
Michelle Salmon
Hello 'Guest' - you like the sound of it, I don't.... each to there own. I will see it at Aachen and I may be surprised but most probably not. I think Aachen is fine as it is - maybe the horses would trott better is half the arena wasn't taken up by VIP seating?
Crowd participation is part of any arab horse show these days, I think you are still going to get idiots that bang on the roof all through the show if you have someone in the ring or not - btw, did I say that is right or wrong?

oh and I'm sure the 'inventor' put a lot of thought into it wink.gif
Guest
QUOTE (Michelle Fitz-Gerald @ Sep 19 2003, 10:18 AM)
Hello 'Guest' - you like the sound of it, I don't.... each to there own.

One difference: I've seen the system in action, you haven't yet. I didn't like the sound of it until I saw it with my own eyes, and realized that it enables the trainers to show the full trotting potential of their horses without scaring or confusing the sh** out of them. I guess everybody will have to make their own opinion about this system, but it would perahps be fair until one has actually seen it in action. And that we will, like it or not. wink.gif See you there!
Cara
Crowds can participate very well without plastic bags!! That is just the problem at shows. The noise comes from all directions which makes some horses nervous and they dont want to trot forwards. One single person running behind them (of course not directly behind, some distance away) would encourage them to move forwards and show a good trot. It works perfectly well for warmbloods, at warmblood shows a person always runs behind to encourage that horse to do a good extended trot. Where is the problem with that?
Michelle Salmon
Personally I just think it takes away that whole thing 'how is the horse going to go on the day???' If your horse does not trott one day it can mean the difference between 1st and 2nd? Isn't that what makes showing fun? I thought that was the whole point?

I think that side of it has not been thought through..... or maybe I am just the only person who thinks about these things???

No I haven't seen it yet and I am sure that it does 'work' very well but that is not what worries me about this system, I don't think you understand me?
intrepid
QUOTE (Dennis @ Sep 19 2003, 09:54 AM)
Warmblood breeders show their horses in the same way. So there is nothing to critique.

Right Dennis! and it's so much better that all that stupid bag waving, screaming etc. This way the crowd can actually see what is happening in the arena instead of that ridicule screaming and waving! As if the horse will react on that!?! Most of the time (esspecialy the young ones) are disturbed and getting out of their movement because of the bag waving and screaming around the arena! I think its worth trying! and give the organiser the bennefit of the doubt! At last a organisation who'll try somthing else!

Intrepid
Guest_guest
[quote=Guest,Sep 19 2003, 08:34 AM] This system was tried out at the German Nationals this year. To everyone's surprise, it worked out very well. Young horses are often disturbed by over-enthusiastic grooms waving plastic bags from all directions. With only one person, behing them, they showed themselves much better in Neustadt.

I don't think the Aachen atmosphere is created by shaking plastic bags and rattling tins, but by the clapping and cheering of the crowd. That certainly won't diminish. But the mad banging on the tin roof certainly wasn't atmosphere, it was a deafening din. I certainly don't see why the one-whip system should cause a conflict of interest! I don't think Sheikh Whatsisname would t take he advantage and run behind to do the shaking up, just so everybody knows who the horse belongs to...and if he did, it would be fun to watch tongue.gif ...

As for breeding horses which don't need assistance, that would be nice if we could manage that. But to be honest, ONE single person behind them is a lot less obtrusive that 20 grooms leaning over the sides, waving the bags almost in the horses faces, or whipping madly onto the walls. Because I have seen it so often, especially in Aachen, that horses were shown to a disadvantage by too much shaking (or by shaking from the wrong direction), especially young ones. Particularly when the grooms don't know when to stop!

I am looking forward to seeing how this system works out at a big international show. But don't be too pessimistic before you've tried it! biggrin.gif [/quote]
][/QUOTE]is that anyone that springs to mind there should be a balance the owners should work with the handlers on the day to see if the horse needs to be encouraged or not
if you have one system across the world this could stop the arguements before this starts
Guest
Excuse me, but the whole point of showing, as I see it, is to try and get the most out of your horse on the day, to show it to it's full potential. If a horse can trot for a 20, but doesn't actually feel like it during the 10 seconds which count, because it doesn't like the look of that little old flower pot there, then that is very disappointing for all those who have put a lot of money and effort in the whole thing. I mean, the present system of making as lot of noise as humanly possible does not exactly conform to the idea of "let's just see how he will go on the day and leave things to chance". By making all that din, people are actually trying to get the most out of their horses. And I personally think that the system of just one helper will make things depend MORE on the natural showing ability of the horse. When I want to show off my horses at home in the paddock, I find that just a little bit of plastic bag, just waved a bit on the ground, encourages my horses to show themselves off in a natural, beautiful way, whereas mad swishing and banging makes them gallop around madly and show no trot whatsoever!

Let's face it, no system in the world is going to make everybody happy. But it will be interesting to try out a new one.
Ronny
Dear Guest and co,

as already mentioned before. It is common in Warmblood horses to give "a little bit of assistance" to the horse in the ring. One groom is allowed to stimulate the horses's movements ( more interesting if the horse is in liberty ). There is no extreme stress involved for the horse or the handler. Everybody has the same possibilities.
As people invest a lot of money in this "3 minutes handling", in my opinion, all horses desirve an equal methode of being stimulated to give the best they can, without overdoing. It's nice for the horse, it's nice for the audiance, it's even easy for the judges... either the horse has it, or has not!
Being into allround horse competition against other breeds, we know it works very well!

good luck with this new system,

Ronny

PS: We hope even to go a little further than this at the next Belgian Stallions Licensy by showing all stallions in liberty, being stimulated by a single handler! Let's wait and see...
Michelle Salmon
I just hope it doesn't lead to the same horses winning all the shows week in and week out. After all, if the best horses have their 'off days' then it gives someone else a chance to shine - thats the way I see it !
cool.gif cool.gif
Ronny
Dear Michelle,

in my humble opinion,

the best horses are not even competing, they are somewhere outside in their pasture, enjoying their freedom.
Or they are mounted regularly by their owners. "Being the best that particular day or not" has little to do with quality!
Although I do attend bigger shows regularly, I still have some doubt concerning their function...!
Meeting people... great..., seeing nice horse... too..., the better or best horse... depends on the money involved...

kindest regards,

Ronny
bartvb
Ronny, I agree with you but maybe they are not even ridden - they might just enjoy pasture life very happily pregnant! biggrin.gif

I think this system could work, wether it works in a closed arena like Aachen will have to be found out. But I see a lot of positive in it, the total picture will be more clear, a more controlled situation that gives you at the end a more proffesional look. Also smaller trainers who do not have 500 poeple arround the arena with coke bottles, fluids, plastic bags or chinese rang rangs ...... whatever, will at least be in the same position as the more popular trainers.

The public can enjoyed with a relax feeling and a supportive hand clapping. If their are some getting their bags up the presenter - trainer of that horse might get punnished with another new system at Aachen : Reg and Yellow cards carried by the DC.

Further their will also be the selection of a top five in Aachen besides the champion and reserve.

Wether all this works we could discuss after the show, somethimes you need to try a few things out to find one who works. At least I think it will be a very revolutionary show with lotts to try and see but it pleases me enormous to see things moving. Every situation how good it might sound is always subject on improvement, the show system is far overdue. My congratulations to ECAHO show commision and the organisation for the Nations Cup to have the guts.

Bart.
Sabine
I think it is a good system, i saw it in Neustadt and i was positive suprised,
most of the horses trotted very well.

But one problem, one whip in the championships, is not enough, in Neustadt this ended also in a big mess, because the the horses need to trot right after eachother, and there was no time enough to hand over the whip each time, this was not really fair for some horses.

And in a top five this even gets more difficult.
Guest 2
This idea sounds like a way forwards, at least this show organiser is thinking of the problems that already exist in the shows, and is trying to do something about it. smile.gif

Dragon has a reputation in Britain for making a noise outside the showring! wink.gif so I guess he has no right here to be the critic.
Mr Dragon uses bottles with stones in to rattle, would this be a better method then? huh.gif

Please let this show try to do something with out any comments, just yet. blink.gif
Pip
If we are honest probably rather a lot of us have tried to get a horse excited to trot by clapping and cheering and shaking tins and whips with plastic at home and at shows.

However it can work both ways, it can help and it can hinder. There can be nothing worse for a trainer or handler to have his chances 'blown' by well meaning but ill timed ringside assistance. There have also been situations when crowds have deliberately scarred the hell out of a horse in full knowledge of what they were acheiving.

So it strikes me as a sensible step to place, if any shaking up is done in the hands of a trusted assistant. Where the assistant can shake or not at the direction of the handler.

I wonder however what they will do with the people watching? Of course they will hopefully show there appreciation by clapping and cheering...but whistling is that ok..or shaking from the VIps or tribune/ grandstand....? To give this idea a chance and indeed it went down well at the German National show I hope that people have respect for this approach and behave accordingly ie clap and cheer but leave shaking up to the people in the arena.

I think this could remove alot of the distaste some people feel when they watch 'really wild shows'.

It is also worth noting that for the person organising the music their task is even more important in ensuring a level playing field. If one horse or one trainer performs to up beat music then it is totally unfair for the next to have to trot out to Chamber music, or hardly any audible music at all.

I hope that the show organisers have taken the points from the Nationals and had a good think through how to "do" the championships and that post show postings are for once only positive and that Aachen retains its reputation for being the 'trotting' arabian show. biggrin.gif
Pip
P.S.

Although the title of this post certainly got a lot of attention, for the people who will be doing the shaking up and who are not into S & M , we should refer to them as "person with whip". ph34r.gif
Mary J
I would be against this, but I am also against any whips on the showgrounds at all, let alone in the ring. Let the horse be judged in its natural state.

I cannot believe people who wave plastic bags, etc. The shows should do something about this. The minute someone waves a plastic bag, the show is stopped cold, the bag is confiscated, and the person escorted totally out of the grounds.

One thing however, if a horse is distracted by screaming so much that they get out of movement, that horse shouldn't win. Horses are riding horses after all, and they should be rock solid. If not, they do not deserve to win. Just my opinion smile.gif
HLM
good morning everybody

I cant believe, what I am reading. Has everybody gone bananas? since when does it take a person behind a trained horse to make it move? what are the judges looking for, a "speedster". A good judge can see on the conformation if the horse can move or not and the engagement of the hindquarters..

what next folks???? A handgranate behind the horse?
Forgive me please, I never realized how much lack of training knowledge and ignorance is out there.

All you have to watch, if a horse starts off like going "uphill" with its hind legs. that's called "Impulsion"
which is either there or not. No "whipper" behind can create this, its either there from the start or not.

sorry folks, but I cant help to give my opinion here, which might not be yours.

Have a great day and please start some tall thinking or change your trainer.

Hansi rolleyes.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest_Christine
Sorry Hansi, but at all Warmblood shows in Europe (for instance Stallion licensings or foal shows) it is and always has been a common practice for someone to run behing the horse when it trots cracking a lunge whip, to make sure it shows a proper extended trot. Nobody thinks this is strange there. Why then do we Arabian horse people get so much flak when we want to try the same principle?

Of course a person running behind can create impulsion, just the same as a person lungeing a horse. Or why does one always lunge a horse with a whip? I was taught that lungeing without a whip is like riding without legs.
bartvb
Even more sorry Hansi as it happens at the Andalusian - Frisian - Belgium Draft horse - .... and many pony breeds to. And I must ad that these presentations somethimes look much more proffesional and kept under control!!! I think our shows or nice but their was a bid (!) to much of that plastic and coke - stone bottles going on. I can't complane to much either as I was taking part of that destress! I'm very impressed with this rule - can't wait to see it going on in Aachen.

Bart.
Dakhilah
hoi,
only 5 days to go ... and the show starts..... biggrin.gif laugh.gif ...
gr,sas.
Mary J.
) it is and always has been a common practice ... a person running behind can create impulsion, just the same as a person lungeing a horse.

But that doesn't make it right - that it has always been done. And we are judging the HORSE. Not the trainer, not the whip, but the horse.
HLM
Hi Bartvb

I pray you are wrong. If a horse is properly trained, it will present its gaits correctly as to its ability.

If a horse is scared to death, it will hesitate moving forward or end up "dashing" forward. How can a judge then judge the proper gaits? any expert horsejudge will look at the rearend, the way the horse engages the hindquarters moving forward, which should look like going "uphill". It has nothing to do with "speed" but with stride/movement.

If other breeds do this, so be it. But why do we want to copy such nonsense? Arent we fooling ourselves?
Do you really think, when inspecting a horse at home by the veterinarian or a buyer, a person stands behind the horse scaring it forward????

Personally, it tells me of absolute incompetence of the trainer/haendler. So what will we do next ,if that does not work anymore????

Just my opinion, and I am truly apolled. mad.gif

Have a great day
Hansi smile.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Bartvb

I forgot to refer to a person helping longing, as you mentioned.

this is only done in some cases when starting a young horse off. this second person stands a bit away from the longe haenedler and enduces the horse to go horward with his whip pointing at the hip or even hock.
But this is only done at the start. Working within the pillars, naturally also takes two people.

However, the showgring is not a training ground.
A horse should be trained to move on command, walk,trott, willingly and happily and not scared to death.
But of course, proper longe work can only be done by an expert rider, because it is an art in itself. One can work a horse to a high level of dressage just from the ground.
But how often has anybody seen proper longing by halter trainers?????
That's just my professional opion.

Hansi
Dee
Guest 2

I cant believe what i am reading, it sound like another slagging match. Why cant we all just look forward and enjoy Aachen.

P.S. Re Dragon, guest alot of people love the dragon and so do we so if he wishes to shout and make a noise then good for him. GOOD LUCK ALL BRITISH ENTRIES.

Dee
smile.gif gbfahne.gif
bartvb
Dear Hansi,

Well it seems we have ones more totally different vieuws but I understand yours. And in a way you are very right. But their is one thing about your comment before you should pre-judge the idea. Thats to know the situation and from were we in the European style showring come from to make such a change. When have you been last at the Nations Cup - World Championships or European Championships or at a big show like Towerlands , ..... and so on? Believe me the Asil cup does not qualify to know the european situation!

So first go and see, expirience and then call it a stupid idea and me a silly man who apperently has no idea about what could be an advantage or not within this situation!

By the way I would be looking very much forward meeting you, I was almost going to spend some time with Daryle and Catharine Duncan this summer in Ocala but at the last minute I couldn't quit make it. Hopefully next year!!!

Best Regards,

Bart Van Buggenhout -- bartvb.
Dakhilah
hoi,
I 'm really pleased that some one is brave enough to even suggest a differend way of showing a horse ...I must say that for me personally the shows are NO Fun anymore because of al the screaming , wave plastic bags and other unplesant things I see in the ring and out side the ring! mad.gif ... blink.gif ....
let 's give it a go.... biggrin.gif
My first time at a show was a terrible horse culture shock...what a lot of none fun noise mad.gif ...and a lot of scared looking animals[not all] <_< mad.gif .....I had the idea it should be FUN for ALL wink.gif ......horse and human.
gr,sas
HLM
Good morning dear Bart

thank you for your honest opinion and remarks. I appreciate this. It is correct, I have not watched the shows you referred to, and according to some of my friends who did, it appears there are the same all over.

I still maintain, that if a horse is properly trained, it will willingly, happily move forward ON COMMAND, and does not have to be whip induced, other then may be a slight tap. What do you feel it will be accomplished by someone running behind a horse, scaring it forward??? I have seen these uprupt forward actions, most all scared to death.
But of course, if some trainers indeed where horsemen/women they would know how to train and present a horse, by this I mean that such could either ride or drive and then understand what "noises" can and will do or plastic bags at the end of a whip.

there also is no reason to have the crowd scream like indians in a warfare, behaving like children, when applaus can be given at the end, and not DURING.

At a show in Egypt which I visited a few years ago, any horse which was applauded with screams by the public, was "excused" out of the ring. Ask Nasr Mareii, he will confirm this, because I guess it was he, who demanded a dignified behavior.

Honestly now, how can a judge judge properly? What do you think a judge is looking for in a halter class, which is supposed to be a breeding class? How many horses have lost, because of the hoopla hoop, considering their highly sensitive hearing??? What does the public think they accomplish, and how many people no longer attend, because also their sensitive hearing does not allow it??

How do we atract people from other breeds, when they are used to a sportmenship behavior and not a three ring circus???

I dont believe our judges need the encouragement from the public, most all know what they are doing. and as I said, applaus is welcome at the end when the winners/placings are called.

Just my professional opinion

I did not know that Daryel Duncan and his wife are back in Ocala. We are only 30 miles northeast of it and would have loved to have you as a guest for a few days. I have always been a great fan of Daryel, knowing him for about 26 years.
I have high respect for his accomplishments, and he always was a gallant sportsman, a delight to be with.
therefore, next time, please remember.

Have a great day

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
.
Stephanie
Hansi,

If you ever get the chance, you are welcome to come and visit the All Nations Cup. You will find it has a wonderful atmosphere and the public comes to see fine horses. They support ALL competitors and will not even whisper when noticing the horse in front doesn't appreciate it. This goes for a lot of the international and not so international shows around Europe.

I think this 'person with whip" is a good step forward. I've read several different reactions here, but what strikes me is that some people think this whip will be "used". Being familiar with other breeds and their shows has learned me something different. This person walks behind several meters and will not move the whip in any way. It is just there, being shown to the animal and that is it. The ones running like mad behind it, well, should they really be allowed in the ring? mad.gif

I agree Hansi, a horse can and will move forward when well-trained on just a short command. But don't you think it is all going in the right direction at this moment? Away from all the "hoopla-hoop" that doesn't belong in horsemanship. Hopefully the change will show us horses who don't trot flat-out and therefor not show the great movement they normally would when relaxed. laugh.gif

The public in general will applaud to show their appreciation of a good animal. I feel that is fine as long as it stays within certain limits. This does mean no yelling and screaming, but keep in mind that in many horseshows there is also the music. I haven't heard anybody complain of that aspect here while I find that mostly THE deafening factor at many shows. blink.gif

Let us find out if this "whip"-idea works in Aachen and then comment on the pro or contra of it. And let us agree we all disagree just a little on certain things. smile.gif

Hm, I hope I have worded my thoughts clearly. I do expect comments on it and probably a lot of slapping. biggrin.gif tongue.gif

greetz,
Stephanie
Guest 2
Dee, it is not another slagging match, it is a fact that Mr Dragon, who is a council member of the AHS in England, and a panel judge in the UK, is the pot calling the kettle black?
I appluade this show for trying to do something about the ridiculas situation of too much tin roof bashing, and bad waving and general noise, this show is trying, please let them.
I agree with Hansi, on all his points. A good horse should really not need a whipping person there, but is it better than hooligans from the socca pitch?
The level of noise and hooligan behavour does put some people off, if you keep deafening horses to extreme noise, they will become unfaised by it, so you will need to go to the next extreme to get them to trot? this is what has happened.
Years ago, all horses trotted well with out noise, they have become too used to it now. What do you suggest is used to get horses trotting then? Mr Dragon rattling his stones and shouting at the top of his voice?
Please, can we have some decent behavour in the show rings?
This is a start. Well done to the show organisers here.
HLM
thank you Stephani, I appreciate your kind reply.

But I TOALLY AND MOST DEFINITELY DISAGREE.

People are paying those trainers fortunes, thinking they can do a better job as they can. Obviously, this is not so.
If these trainers can not teach a horse to walk and trott on command, happily and willkinly as I said before, then they should go and take lessons. I find is disgraceful, that a trainer can not do such very, very simple task of teaching a horse, any horse the basics of obedience. I assure you, I get my just starting out horses within 15 minutes to listen to Walk, Trott, Canter, whoah and come. anybody, who had been properly educated in horsemenship can do the same.

I would be deadly insulted, so many of my collegues, if we had to reley on a "whipper" regardless if he uses same or not.The very measure of him/her following a horse alsready "scares" the horses into doing something.

But then look at the horses. with few exceptions, they come in dead scared, eyes wide open for fear, trembling
and some even showing fear sweat. If this is horsemenship, you may keep it.

I feel, that all trainers, going to a licenced show, should present their trainers certificate, indicating in what they gratuated, and not just taking money from the innocent,
winning often ribbons politically and some making an undeserving name of themselves, and then acting arrogant trying to make believe, that they are the Gift to the horseworld.

Demand proper training, go yourself to licended training stables, watch and listen and then conclude. If I had
the choice, I would throw 75 percent of all trainers right out of the ring. their horses tell me exactly what was done to them, it is heartbraking. Many will be ruined for life.

Until we start practizing ethical behavior, horsemenship ,
horses trained- there is really only one way since nobody has improved upon yet since Xenophone some
25oo years ago- in a manner horses can understand, we might as well go to other breeds. Just because our Arabians are so understanding, so willing to please, does not give anybody the right to fool around with it.

therefore, If I ever see another person enducing a horse to move in a showring, I will know at once the competence or incompetence of such person. and if judges permit this, they are no better.

Just my professional opinion

Have a wonderful day smile.gif
Hansi
Serneity Arabian Farms
Stephanie
Good Morning Hansi,

I respect your opinion fully and do agree on some points. I too generally train horses without usage of whip nor spurs. The better a horse reacts to your voice, legs, seat and hands, the more fun riding and showing will be. A whip is only ever used when teaching the horse difficult and new movements or when to correct them a little at some point.

Let us wait and see what happens in Aachen and if this change results in relaxed horses who show their full potential without any outside "whip-help". We can see and learn of future shows like this and who knows, we might move towards the shows you describe.

Have a nice day,
Stephanie
Guest_guest
to guest 2
you seem to have your comments aimed at the Dragon who in my opinion is a very nice man who is also a proffesional, you say about him makeing noise's at horse's I could name other international trainners that have at least 3/4 grooms running around the out side of the ring with whips that have bags on the end I don't ever recall the Dragon doing that you make no comment on these handelers, my question is will the new system applie to these inderviduals as well as everyone else. for any system to work it has to be a rule accoss the board, I suggest you find someone else to try and bait and leave the Dragon alone, Yes he is a judge but that dose not make what the trainners are doing any less acceptable tongue.gif
paelmchen
Hi !

Let´s look forward to Aachen, and see what will happen with this new rule.

I hate to see horses beiing scared to death, staring at their handlers!
We rider´s alway´s use a whip as an extension of our arm`s, it is a essential instrument of our daily work, never being abused, trust is the magic word, otherwise you won´t have such results in working on the hand.

ciao roland palm
Guest 2
Guest-Guest, the ONLY reason for mentioning Mr Dragon, is the fact that he actually started this topic! biggrin.gif
Yes, lots of trainers do have supporters, but they do not come on the forum and throw stones in greenhouses!!! huh.gif
And, they do not have the luxury of a page in a magazine to air their views? tongue.gif
I am only amazed that Mr Dragon has the nerve to come on this forum after condemming it in his magazine article?

Back to the real issue here, the horses welfair and trying to sort out a problem that exists in shows. Goodluck to Aachen.
Guest_guest
guest 2
jealousy is the green eyed monster, the dragons topic on this forum and in his PAGE I have always felt fair and they are there for topical discussion not for personal attacks.

And yes good luck to all at Archen rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
Guest 2
" We need to breed horses with natural show, and not use inside assistance"
(from the original posting)

So, does this mean we can only use outside assistance please?
What difference is there to a horse who will 'show' with inside assistance and to a horse who will show with outside assistance? biggrin.gif

I would prefer a horse to show well on it's own, without any assistance please, and move correctly, using it's hocks for propulsion. I would like my show horse to enjoy the experiance please, bounce and have fun, snort and blow without all this outside or inside assistance.
Not every horse born is natural to the showring, so why force them to a job they do not wish to do? especially by using methods that cause distress to humans and the horse. sad.gif

No, no jealousy here Guest, just sadness at the lack of thought for our friend, the arab horse. sad.gif
HLM
Good morning dear Stephani

Please, do not be confused, a whip is an "aid" and our horses are all "whip trained' meaning, I would stroke the whip over their entire body, letting them sniff it, and they know very quickly when it is an aid or punishment.
None is afraid of a whip. But I also ONLY start my young horses off under saddle wearing "spurs" gentle "spurs" which again are an aid and enforde the little bit of pressure some of us have in their calves. Indeed a whip is the continuation of one's arm, and when longing, become your legs, while the long line are your reins.

It takes expertise to properly use a whip, and lots of practice. Once you have learned to whip a cigarette out of someone mouth so to speak,, you then are able to place the whip lash exactly where you want it.

Now, no-one please confuse the above training methods with the person who should go behind a horse in a show ring to make it walk,trott etc. that is a totally different circumstance, and only employed on a young foal/horse at HOME, or if you like, starting a beginner off to longe. But this only takes a few times of such encouragment, I assure you, especially with those so easily trainable Arabian horses.

We all know, that if a horse is not trained properly, or not exercised enough, it can cost us that ribbon in the show ring.Therefore, if a trainer cant get his entry to move on his command, you have the explanation. so why should an ill trained horse be artificially helped and gain a ribbon, versa those who have done their homework?

Just my opinion
Have a great day. biggrin.gif

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest_Sam
Because Hansi, if the horse is properly trained, just as you descibe, smile.gif then the horse will show itself well,
but,
it will NOT have the added enthusiasm, or 'wild' look, that seems to be what is wanted in the show rings? blink.gif

Now I cannot understand why everyone wants this wild, frightened look, with the extreme forced movement that does not engage the hind quarters, but, a lot of the new owners and onlookers to the showing scene, simply have no idea of how a horse should move.
I bet if you ask each and every one in the audiance at Aachen, how the horse takes his steps, only a few will be able to say.

The show ring is, and always will be plagued by new comers, who are not horsemen, and just are there for a quick fix sad.gif
They love the noise and so called excitement of it all, the last thing, that appears to be on thier minds is the well being of the horse unsure.gif

I think that a lot of visitors to Aachen, see this as end of term holiday and celebration, so it is going to be outragous every time.
Why bother to have horses there at all, just open the bar, and play music!! laugh.gif
HLM
dear Sam

The Arabian horse brings along such beauty, that it does not take a humenoid to improve on god's work.
I do not recall that in the past our great horsemen/woman had to resort to such unorxedoxed methods, telling the expert how much education,knowledge is admiss.

the arabian horse is not a "toy" nor an "amusement" to people seeking pleasure in what I call sadistic
or childich behavior. Their tremendous sensitivity endurs the torchure received, puts up with what we dish out and continues. But we DONT HAVE THE RIGHT to play on these-their good attributes- Have No RIGHT TO DESTROY THE REPUTATION OF THE aRABIAN HORSES QUALITIES, and all of us MUST TRY to stop this outragous nonsense.

If "AAchen" indeed is that "super show" than let us see how their management behaves, how they will stop the
physical and mental punishment the Arabian horses received through the ignorance of their trainers/owners/haendlers and let's find out if this
"super show" has the "courage" to employ humane methods and throw out any entry, to which the crowd
howls like a pack of woolfs. Let's see, if dignity will be exercised, all are quied until the winners are called out, and make a list of those- who belong in the jungle with Tarzan.

Let us also see who has the "courage" in the crowd to stop any noises of any kind. then let's see how the bautiful Arabian horses behave "naturally".

and if it takes "booooing" so be it.

the gross behavior in the showrings all over has come to it's limit, AND MUST BE STOPPED, REVERSED to its originality.

that is my professional opinion because I happen to love the Arabian horses, all horses and it hurts me deeply to watch those three-ring circusses continue.

therefore, dear Mr Beste, I feel certain, that also you can help doing something about this. I furthermore appeal to all "Large Stables" to instruct their personell, clients,friends to keep their mouth shut until the winnes are calles..But I also appeal to all smaller breeders/owners to help this unrealistic situation and be Proud doing so.

thank you for listening and have a wonderful day

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
Am interested to see how the new system works, and all for giving it a try.

A well trained horse is one who is practised well, and ShOULD trot in a straight line,with his handler. (Some horses have always been better at this than others !) BUT, you all know as well as I do, t hat a nicely trained horse loose in an arena will trot nicely round in the correct direction with impulse, cadence and balance, BUT, when you have guests and you want another gear, the elevated version, with tail well up, you give him a rattle.

For years we Europeans have tried to acheive this gear change with 'outside assistance' which often works very well , but, of late, is often totally over the top and causes more problems than it solves, with horses rushing forward into the bridle, necks upside down and backs hollow. It has become especially hard on youngsters and the more timid horses. I can see that the one person rule ought to help this, with one person who knows the horse giving as little or as much rattle as required for that horse to change gear. It s sounds like a gentler and more practical system. I have heard positive reports from the systems previous outing.

I CAN see one interesting problem with the OBW (official bag waver) but I will wait and see whether it surfaces in Aachen or not !
HLM
Hi guest

I am trying to understand your point of view, but cant.

What is the function of the Arabian horse for centuries?
How does a breeder/judge truly determine its conformation/movement etc?

We dont need a new system, we can follow the old ones hundreds of years old. they worked then, brought us up
far, and anythingelse will destroy this proven method.

I have seen younger trainers/haendlers struggling to keep their horses on four feet, some even petrified of the horrendous noises given by a howling woolf pack in the stands. What are we trying for? Examining the presented horses to determine the best, or what???

It is difficult for any judge to judge a horse with exagerated gaits, due to undue influence. It is not speed, or above the ground movements which determine gaits, it is how the rearend engages.
If our arabians have deteriated that much, that undue influence is the only thing which makes them move, I think we better start breeding Goldfish, at least we can flush them down the toilet.

What you might refer to to, is to me dishonest presentation, confusing newcomers and make experts crinch in their pants. this is when you will see two legged entries continue becoming undeserving champions.

I must leave it to the heandlers of Marbach, which I watched at numerous show when in Germany.
they DID IT RIGHT, but hardly got a championship ribbon, which they should have had. So what are were getting at the end? A dream on baby affair???

I doubt seriously if any oldtimer experts would disagree with my statements. they know better. they love the horses and try hard to bring the best out of them according to their ability, both trainer and horse.

I sometimes feel ilLadvice is issued by folks who want our beloved arabians to FAIL. Or it is total ignorance.
If all trainers were also accomplished riders, they would not permit in a million years the circuss going on now or being part of it.

Therefore, if you dear readers truly love your Arabians, then learn to understand their language,after all, you want them to understand yours, right? Well it cant be onesided, there is a give and a take, so lets not only take.

By the way, I mentioned before that I saw Liz Salmon's daughter Clare riding at the Sportshorse championship, coming home with eight well deserving top tens. To watch her, as many others, would bring tears of joy to our faces. So why cant anybodyelse give it a real hard try? Remember A HORSE IS A HORSE IS A HORSE!!!!!!

Please, all do some tall thinking, help to set this unrealistic situation straight and help save our beloved breed.

Have a great day
Hansi smile.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest_guest
to HLM

I understand what you are saying however the point I rais and not nessessarly agree with is that when you have any sport with spectators you will have issuse's of noise with clapping and shouting sometimes at the wrong moment but this to me is just something you have to live with you can't want support of this but ask for silence ! but the bag waving by handlers or there assisstance is another thing someone told me once that if you teach your horse the whip bag stones clapping and outside noise should not be a facter nor should they fear it, but I do understand that there are horses that do more so the youngsters.

there will never be a time that everyone will be happy I also except that but the point is to some and only some owners winning is the only point so it is there ego that needs the attention, then things will come into line
Guest_Sam
To Hansi,

Just read your last posting and I nearly cried, you have put everything so very well.
Why can't you send this as a letter to all the major Arab Horse societies in Europe?
I am sure it would have some effect?
What about sending it to the magazines to be published?
Arab Horse News UK
Arabian Link UK
Araba Journal

What a lovely person you are. smile.gif gbfahne.gif
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