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HLM
Dear Friends

According to my records Mashaan was bought by Sh Fawzan El-Sabek of the Dawasir, Egypt prior to 1929. How he got there, I do not know.
He raced well in Egypt and was used by the RAS for the first time in 1935.
He produced 4 daughters and 7 sons, and can not be considered a herd sire at the RAS.
If anybody has records how this stallion got to Egypt, releases these, it would be great.

According to SOFI, what I was told, Mashaan was selected by Dr Branch and became a herd sire at RAS. Can anybody factually substanciate this, or is it another fabel?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Aabian Farms
Kimberli Nelson
I wish I knew more about this stallion as well.

I believe that the rootstock chosen by the original Sheykh Obeyd Foundation founders, Jay Gormley, Edna Weeks and Julia Byfield, was simply based on the Al Khamsa designations of “EGYPT” and “BLUNT” which included all 66 foundation horses. The only horses not included where those of “INCHASS”.
HLM
I know Kimberly. this is what makes it a bit confusing. It appears that many things where done by "Dr Branch" and I just like to see the evidence of that. He must have been a very busy man, eh. It appears that everytime something is to be justified, he comes into the picture. There are many questions to be answered.

Numerous horses were imported to the race tracks in Lebanon, Egypt ec. many from Syria and most the time by private importers, of which we know little by enlarge. The al Jibur tribe/shammars is known for breeding Asils only, I was told.
The horse came from that tribe and therefore can be accepted as "Asil".

El Deree was gifted to the RAs in 1934, started breeding at Inshass in 1927. Mashaan started breeding at the RAS in 1935. I talked to Mrs Ott March 15.1973 about Mashaan and she stated that she will include him in her future editions of the blue catalogue. I dont know what happened to Mashaan after 1937, he had one foal in 1938.

this is the data I have of the offspring
1) Nagia (1936( x Khafifa (1925) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
sold to Mohamed Bideir Pasha, Egypt in 1939 - NO OFFPSRING- mare

2) Nagi (1936) x Magboura (1924) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
sold to Sh Fozan el Sabek,Egypt in 1939- NO OFFPSRING - stallion

3) Nasir (1937) x Bint Radia (Bint Ghadia) (1920- bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
No offspring- no other data - stallion

4) Salem (1937) x Magboura (1924) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
Sold to Sh Fozan el Sabek, Egypt in 1939- NO OFFPSRING- STALLION

5) Kasid Kheir (1937) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
Sold to Shoukri Eff,Egypt in 1939- NO OFFSPRING - stallion

6) Kamar (1937) x Fayda (1931) bred by Kahr farouk Stud
Sold to Shoukri Eff,Egypt in 1939 -NO OFFSPRING stallion

7) Ragi (1938) x Fayda (1931) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
Sold to Mahdi El Gaiyar, Egypt in 1939- NO OFFSPRING- stallion

8) Wadia (1938) x Bint Farida (1931) bred by Kahr farouk Stud
Sold to sh Fozan El Sabek,Egypt in 1940- NO OFFSPRING- mare

9) Semria (1938) x Bint Gamila (1923) bred by Kahr Faruk Stud
Sold to Hassan Sharaoui,Egpt in 1940- NO OFFSPRING- mare

10) Shams (1938) x Bint Samiha -bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
To RAS- bred on - 7 daughters, 3 sons.

11) Sayyad (Sayyad El Leil) (1938) bred by Kahr Farouk Stud
to RAS- bred on - 5 daughters and 6 sons- Race Winner

What I wonder about if Dr Branch was so convinced that Mashaan
would make a herd sire, why were most all offspring sold! Have any of these SOFI people done proper reseach, and if so, can we get an answer why the far more prominent producer El Deree was left out and Mashaan taken in. Both came from the Jibur tribe.
I suggest you all look at the offspring of shams and Sayyad and then conclude
on your own what you think.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

PS El Deree bred on til 1948- last foal born in 1949. that should give everybody someting to think about and what particular preservation programs really stand for and select for inclusion or exclusion!.
Kimberli Nelson
Hansi can you tell us today WHO (horses) are still breeding within SE breeding from both stallions?

It is my understanding that within SO breeding, *Ashwak is the only horse left with Mashaan blood. Is this correct?

El Deree only had a daughter and one son that bred forward, is this true?

If not, who am I missing?

Many horses were sold off the RAS and EAO without leaving offspring to carry forward. Although Dr. Branch choose many Hadban mares for breeding, most of the foals were sold without leaving anything for the future.
Echo1
Hi Kimberli,

I don't know for sure the people involved. But SOF did follow Al Khamsa, and at the time Al Khamsa had only Egypt group. You are correct in what you are saying. Later, when Al Khamsa II came out they had divided this group into Egypt 1 and Egypt II.

Mishaan is catagorized by Al Khamsa as being
Egypt II.(RAS)

Egypt 1 (foundation breeders) Viceroy Abbas I, Ali Pasha Sherif, Ahmed Bey Sennari, Khedive Abbas II and Prince Ahmed Pasha Kemal.

Mishaan is included in SO horses. As well as Nabras who also went to Egypt before 1924 and raced on the track and also sired foals.
Mishaan was purchased and imported to egypt by Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek.
Mishaan is from El Jibour tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire from El Jibour . Mashaan was leased to RAS after racing and bred the mare Bint Samiha and they had a filly named Shams (RAS) and then went to the stud farm and ownership of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia.

But what is also interesting is that he went to the RAS in 1935 "after" Dr Branch had retired in 1932, (according to Carl Raswan and Al Khamsa) which is supported by the fact that he had a mare born to him by Bint Samiha in 1938. But not just Mishaan, but also the stallion Nabras who went to the RAS and sired foals in 1935 and later, which is as you know after 1932 when Dr Branch left. ( obviously these horses were not breeding "under the 'auspices' of Dr Branch" , which seems to be a key phrase in the definition of qualifiying a SOFI horse for their roster) El Deree as you know also was breeding at the RAS and produce Sid Abouhom for them in 1936 in between the births of Mishaans RAS foal and Nabras' RAS Foal.


So my question again is DOES SOFI support RAS bred horses or do they not?
HLM
Yes Kimberly you are right, many were sold through the auctions held by the EAO, etc.that was part of their income I guess. done still today.

I willl let you know lateron the bred on subject- have to dig it out.

But what I was driving at the many years El deree was used versa Mashaan.

I did not say that there is anything wrong with the Mashaan offspring, saw a photo of his, which is rather nice.

Personally, one can only preserve what is worth while preserving, not just because there are few offspring. If they havent done a thing, then what have we got, eh?
A "Label purchase can have consequences.

Of course I just wonder what our future generations will say when they see that about 98percent of the SEs during the past 20 or more years were never used under saddle. Mmmm!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
thanks Echo1, I id not want to come out right awaywith Dr branch retiring in 1932 and am glad you did. Was waiting for some more confusing posts.

Unless there are more explanations, it apears to me that only a particular group of horses were selected by SOF and SOFI, owned by certain people. they chose Exochorda, claiming an RAs bred mare-and only because of that. (RAs did not breed her) yet leave all the others out including El Deree. May be they should simply state the name of owners and call it a different preservation name, eh.
I guess what can stand up is the Se, al Khamsa and Asil club.
Therefore, little is lost to those SOFI fanciers, as they can relate back to
the above organizations and can be proud of it..

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Kimberli Nelson
I can't speak for SOFI but have spoken to the original founders of SOF and El Deree was listed by Al Khamsa as a Inchass foundation horse therefore not included in SOF. The fact that many years later Al Khamsa divided “Egypt” in to Egypt 1 and Egypt 2 has no bearing on the original choice of rootstock for SOF and SOFI was required to keep all 66 horses as part of the by-laws.

I know this seems unreasonable so some but that is the way it is and seems that it is the way it will stay.

There is nothing wrong with any of the foundation horses that came out of the Desert into Egypt. The more information we have about the past is really just more history that is fascinating to some but not all.

Many people who love the SO horses should not be slammed by anyone for the horses they choose to breed. Some of the finest horses in the world carry *Exochorda and the continuing debate on this ASIL mare is tiresome. Her dam and sire do not have documents stating that they left Egypt, therefore one must assume that they did not go anywhere. One must also assume that the breeder of any horse must have been the owner of the mare.

Documents that we require today are simply not available from 50 to 100 years ago. I wish they had had the foresight to know of what we would require today.

The horses of today should be judged in quality of horse flesh for the purpose of riding and breeding forward and not totally based on pedigree. We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and breed for quality doing horses that can breed forward.
Echo1
Kimberli,
It doesn't 'seem' unreasonable, it is simply not meeting any reasonable logic at this time.

Actually many of the "Inshass Foundation horses " as you refer tro them are actually included in the Egypt 1 group of horses which SOFI does in fact support according to their past definition (SOF) and current (SOFI)

It wasn't what I would consider 'many years'. SOF was estab in 1987 and Al Khamsa II came out for publication in 1993, but the information was circulating before the book was printed.

According to Al Khamsa in reference to Inshass
" The FOUNDATION breeding stock consisted of horses of the established Egyptian bloodlines(which are designated under Egypt in this volume) "

Apparently the cherry picking of how to include and exclude horses is not supported by facts or history.

Please know that there is not a question that we ALL love our horses.

However, do you happen to know if SOFI does support RAS or not?
Kimberli Nelson
However, do you happen to know if SOFI does support RAS or not?

I really don't understand the purpose of this question.
HLM
Dear Kimberly

I totally disagree. Owners are not always the breeders. But have patience, I am on the trail of some. Assumptions are dangerous Kimberly.

I know you always mean so well

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farsm
Echo1
Hi Kimberli,

If you don't want to answer that I understand. That is sincerely okay. I get the feeling that depending on 'the purpose' the answer may change if they support or do not support the RAS. rolleyes.gif

So maybe someone else from SOFI could let us know if SOFI does or does not support RAS? smile.gif
Kimberli Nelson
Perhaps they will. I no longer an involved with the BOD and am only a breeder. It is not my place to answer for SOFI.
Caryn Rogosky
Hansi said, "According to my records Mashaan was bought by Sh Fawzan El-Sabek of the Dawasir, Egypt prior to 1929. How he got there, I do not know."

First of all, according to Al Khamsa information and the information obtained personally by Judith Forbis and Gulsun Sherif, "your records" are incorrect. Mashaan/Mischaan was owned and imported to Egypt by Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, not his brother, Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek. It was also Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek who leased Mashaan to the RAS when the stallion completed his racing career for the Sheikh. It was after being leased to the RAS where he stood at stud, that Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek , then the Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo, acquired Mashann from the RAS and gifted him to Prince Feisul of Saudi Arabia. In this personal interview with Judith Forbis and Gulsun Sherif, Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek stated that Mashaan was the "purest of the pure".

So now to the burning question of day: "How did he get to Egypt?". Well, lets see if we can figure out the answer to this crucial piece of information about a SE ancestor by process of elimination: We can probably rule out that he got there by plane, by ship, by train, by taxi, by bicycle, by bus, by roller blades, by pogo stick, by ice cream truck, or by UPS or Fed Ex delivery. So, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that he may have traveled to Egypt from the desert by foot, either ridden or led.

I have a suggestion. For the important purpose of discrediting or casting suspicion upon the provenance, credibility or qualifications of foundation ancestors, rather than systematically cherry-picking only those particular individuals who are SE/SO, or who are SE but NOT in Serenity Bloodlines (as has been the method thus far), why don't we just save a whole lot of time and debate by requiring factual proof on how Halabia "got to Egypt"? To keep the criteria consistent, we would also have to require proof of the exact date of her conception, of precisely the location of her parents on the very day she was conceived, of the exact date on which she was born, of the exact location where she was born and of precisely where her parents went after Halabia was conceived and born. Yes, that last one is really critical! Since Halabia is in the pedigree of every living SE Arabian, SO or not, Serenity bloodlines or not, if we can't answer these questions for this particular foundation mare, we can just go right ahead and with one fell swoop --- wipe out the credibility and qualfications of all living SE Arabians. I can't imagine a more fair and efficient method, can you?
Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Kelly:
"But what is also interesting is that he went to the RAS in 1935 "after" Dr Branch had retired in 1932, (according to Carl Raswan and Al Khamsa) which is supported by the fact that he had a mare born to him by Bint Samiha in 1938."

Wrong. The Al Khamsa dates are approximates/estimates. Indeed, Mashaan was acquired by the RAS while under the auspices of Dr. Branch. According to the personal interview conducted by Judith Forbis, Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who owned Mashaan at the time, stated that "the Royal Agricultural Society - then managed by Dr. Branch - leased the horse for a time and used him at stud." Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, page 127.
Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Kelly: "So maybe someone else from SOFI could let us know if SOFI does or does not support RAS? "

That has to be one of the most peculiar questions I've ever heard in some time, and as written, I believe it is unanswerable. How does an organization "support" something which no longer exists?

As already clearly stated, SOFI absolutely, positively and without question, respects and accepts as properly qualified all SE and AK horses according to the criteria of inclusion defined by these organizations. If AK qualifies a horse as a pure desertbred, SOFI accepts it as a pure desertbred. If the PS qualifies a horse as Straight Egyptian, SOFI accepts it as a Straight Egyptian. Since AK, the PS and SOFI all have horses in their foundation root lists which are associated with the RAS, OF COURSE SOFI respects these horses, and respects what "was" the RAS as well as what is now the EAO.
Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Hansi:

"According to my records Mashaan was bought by Sh Fawzan El-Sabek of the Dawasir, Egypt prior to 1929. How he got there, I do not know.
He raced well in Egypt and was used by the RAS for the first time in 1935.
He produced 4 daughters and 7 sons, and can not be considered a herd sire at the RAS.
If anybody
has records how this stallion got to Egypt, releases these, it would be great.
According to SOFI, what I was told, Mashaan was selected by Dr Branch and became a herd sire at RAS. Can anybody factually substanciate this, or is it another fabel?"

The information which does "factually substantiate" that Mashaan was selected by Dr. Branch and became a sire at the RAS has been published and available for many, many, many years -- more than 3 decades in fact. I don't think that information which was personally given by one of the most respected sources for information on early Egyptian Arabian horse ancestry, and the OWNER of this horse, could be considered a "fable".
Caryn Rogosky
.
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Kelly,
"...which is as you know after 1932 when Dr Branch left. ( obviously these horses were not breeding "under the 'auspices' of Dr Branch" , which seems to be a key phrase in the definition of qualifiying a SOFI horse for their roster) El Deree as you know also was breeding at the RAS and produce Sid Abouhom for them in 1936 in between the births of Mishaans RAS foal and Nabras' RAS Foal."

No, wrong. The criteria for inclusion for a SOFI ancestor requires that the horse be either bred by, acquired by, or otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...(the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Mashaan was, in fact, acquired by Dr. Branch and perfectly meets the criteria for inclusion.

El Dere was neither bred by, acquired by, nor otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...((the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Caryn Rogosky.
Gari
Hey Sis,

An MOT oooops!


blink.gif
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 02:54 AM)
Quote Kelly:
"But what is also interesting is that he went to the RAS in 1935 "after" Dr Branch had retired in 1932, (according to Carl Raswan and Al Khamsa) which is supported by the fact that he had a mare born to him by Bint Samiha in 1938."

Wrong. The Al Khamsa dates are approximates/estimates. Indeed, Mashaan was acquired by the RAS while under the auspices of Dr. Branch. According to the personal interview conducted by Judith Forbis, Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who owned Mashaan at the time,  stated that "the Royal Agricultural Society - then managed by Dr. Branch - leased the horse for a time and used him at stud." Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, page 127.
Caryn Rogosky
*




Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career. "

Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy.

Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.
1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932.

Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question, my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????

What do you mean when you say "how can you support something that no longer exists in referece to the RAS. You know what I mean.
What about Nabras too? Born in 1921, raced in 1924 and foals born in 1935 and 1937. He wasn't 'introduced into the 'genetic stream' as you put it until after Branch left either.

El Deree was introduced into the genetic stream by the RAS in 1936 before Mashaan and in between the foals of Nabras. El Deree is right in the middle of these two stallions at the RAS according to dates.


Nabras 1935 - Enzahi out of Fardous (RAS)
El Deree 1936 - Sid Abouhom out of Layla (RAS)
Nabras 1937--Komeira out of Layla(RAS)
Nabras 1937 - *El Akhrani out of Bint Rustem (RAS)
Mashaan 1938 -Shams out of Bint Shamiha (RAS)

El Deree and Nabras bred the same mare at the RAS. (Layla RAS)
Did the RAS breed these horses or did they not?
Do you or do you not support RAS breeding?

Every one of these foals were born AFTER Dr Branch left the RAS. NONE were "introduced into the genetic stream under the auspices of Dr Branch".
It was the RAS.
Echo1
Caryn,

Unless you are referring to 'when' these stallions went to the RAS of which the following information is:

Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 and produced a mare out of Bint Samiha (RAS) in 1938 - bred her in 1937

El Deree -according to the RAS history went to the RAS in 1934-35 and produced his first foal for them Sid Abouhom, out of Layla(RAS) in 1936.

Nabras- produced foals at the RAS in 1935-1937. SO he must have been there in 1934.

Nabras and El Deree were both bred to Layla (RAS) at the RAS

Sid Abouhom (El Deree X Layla RAS) 1936
Komeira ( Nabras X Layla RAS) 1937


Also let us note that
Mashaan was from the El Jibour tribe as was his sire.
El Deree is also from the El Jibour tribe.

Further
Mashaan - Sheikh Abdul Aziz El-Sabek purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt
El Deree - Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek is quoted as saying on 9/25/68 that El Deree was from the El Jibour tribe as well.
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 05:46 AM)
Quote Kelly,
"...which is as you know after 1932 when Dr Branch left. ( obviously these horses were not breeding "under the 'auspices' of Dr Branch" , which seems to be a key phrase in the definition of qualifiying a SOFI horse for their roster) El Deree as you know also was breeding at the RAS and produce Sid Abouhom for them in 1936 in between the births of Mishaans RAS foal and Nabras' RAS Foal."

No, wrong. The criteria for inclusion for a SOFI ancestor requires that the horse be either  bred by, acquired by, or otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...(the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Mashaan was, in fact, acquired by Dr. Branch and perfectly meets the criteria for inclusion.

El Dere was neither bred by, acquired by, nor otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...((the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Caryn Rogosky.
*



Dr Branch left the RAS in 1932

Mishaan and El Deree arrived at the RAS 1935
Nabras did not breed for the RAS until 1934 producing his first foal for the RAS in 1935 (Enzahi RAS out of Fardous RAS)

Nabras and El Deree and Mashaan were not bred by, acquired by nor otherwise intorduced inot the genetic stream by ..((the RAS under the auspices of Dr Branch). They did not breed for the RAS until years after Dr Branch left the RAS.
Kimberli Nelson
One note I would like to make is that what WE call a stud book was actually the HISTORY of the RAS written well after many things took place. The horses that are included in this book and subsequent books may have not been the ONLY horses bred and may have been included only if they were retained by the RAS. It shows those that were recorded and may be that they were important at the time. Without looking at the actual RAS records we may never know exactly how many foals these stallions really had. I think that to assume that the only horses in Egypt are recorded in The History of the RAS is a big mistake.

I am sure that the horses that were sold from the RAS as shown in some of the stud books were bred and produced pure bred foals from the stallions at the breeding stations that were never recorded anywhere. How many foals did Nazeer have before he was brought back as a older horse from the breeding station? How many were purebred? How many were not?

If we are going to insist on ONLY recorded history, we may as well forget the whole thing.
Echo1
Hi Kimberli,
I understand what you are saying.
But what I am saying is that IF we are going to 'quote' what is recorded, then we should at least quote it correctly and not change, alter, add too, or subtract from what is written and documented.
Wahag
According to my records about Mashaan:

Born: 1920 or 1925 ( unknown exactly)
Strain: Kuhailan Ajouz
Color: Bay
Owner: Mr. Fouzan Al Sabeg ( Saudi Impasedor in Egypt)

Photo: Click to view attachment



Mohamed
Echo1
Hi Mohamed,

That is what is also in Al Khamsa II.

It states that Mashaan was purchased and imported to Egypt by Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, and owned by Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek of the Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. (brothers)

Also stated is that he (Mashaan) is from the El Jibour tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire, as was El Deree.

Al Khamsa states that Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia.

Entry #6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives the date of ca.1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS.
Sire of
Shams (RAS) 1938 bay mare, out of Bint Samiha (RAS)

According to the RAS, Al Khamsa and Raswan, It would appear that both El Deree and Mahsaan went to the RAS about the same time. 1934-1935 respectively.
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Kelly:
"Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career."

The Sheiykh states that he leased the horse to the RAS after "he" retired him from his racing career, however, the RAS also raced their stallions. The Jockey Club records do not state whose ownership Mashann raced under but since he was leased to the RAS the ownership would likely not have been changed in any event.

HOWEVER, there is a very distinct break and division in Machaan's racing records. They show that he raced hard during the 1928-1929 racing season, in which whe ran 12 races, won 4, came in 2nd for 5, was 9th in earnings. This is noted before the remaining racing years are listed, as if a synopsis for that chapter of his career. Then, he did not race at all for the following season : 1929-1930, 1930-1931, 1931-1932. Seems like a retirement to me. A three year gap in a racing record is not typical, in fact, the records of approximately 70 different horses provided in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (J. Forbis) show that not one of them had such a gap. All raced consecutive years throughout their careers, except for two cases where there was a single season missed. Then, Mashann raced again for two more seasons but not consecutively 1932-1933, did not race in 1933-1934, and then raced only twice in the season of 1934-1935 but did not place in either.

"Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

That statement is meaningless and defies logic, indicates absolutely nothing whatsoever relative to the issue of whether or not Mashaan was acquired by Dr. Branch -- which he was.

"Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932."

No, wrong. Al Khamsa does not state that "Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935". It states the following, and I quote: "Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information and gives the date as ca.1935 which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS." That little ca. stands for circa, meaning "around or about the time". It is not specific. As I said before the dates given by Al Khamsa on this point are approximates and/or estimates...as is the case.

Do you believe that the information obtained by Judi Forbis is fabricated or false? If so, I suggest you take your argument to her. However, I have found the information she has provided on so many matters to be very reliable. Furthermore, this information was obtained in a in a personal interview with THE person who would know the details at the time, the owner of the horse, who would have no reason to specifically indicate that Dr. Branch was the manager of the RAS when Maashan went there if it were not true.

Again with the RAS History Book: This is just another example of why this book cannot be relied upon as the end-all and be-all source for information on activity at the RAS prior to the year the book was published. It is an invaluable asset which provides a wealth of knowledge and insight into the breeding activites during early years at the RAS. However, the information was gathered and compiled more than a decade after Dr. Branch retired, by a third party whose knowledge and recollections were not derived in the capacity of the Director, and therefore, had to be lacking to some extent. This book was never intended to be a registry and was never claimed by the author or the sponsor to be an entirely complete or absolutely accurate account of all activities at the RAS from 1914 through its publication.

"Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question"

Oh isn't that the question? Actually, I believe that was precisely the question. And it was answered. Yes, despite the efforts of yourself and Hansi to prove otherwise, Mashaan is qualified.

" my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????"

Again, a meaningless composite of inaccuracies, complete misquotes and gross misstatements. I am not saying anything other than Mashaan is a qualified SOFI foundation horse, a qualified AK horse, and a qualified SE horse as per the criteria for inclusion by each of these organizations.

I suggest that both you and Hansi do your own research and confirm your own data rather than expecting others to do it for you. You apparently both assume that you have every right to make defamatory public statements about our foundation ancestors and/or our qualifying organizations based on very poor research efforts, abstract supposition, obscure theory, wild conjecture and other such nonsense. You then expect that it is the obligation of others to spend all of their time defending against such. Well I disagree. You are also both apparently incapable of admitting that you are wrong when shown to be, or of apologizing to those you so frequently offend with your false accusations, insults and harassment, which is unending.

If you don't like or agree with the selection of foundation horses of an organization, just don't participate. I don't believe anyone is knocking down your respective doors trying to convince you to so. But I do find it interesting that for people who constantly bemoan the emphasis on labels, you spend an awful lot of time trying to prove that your own horses ought to qualified to wear them all.

Because I have no interest in effecting the beliefs of either you or Hansi one way or the other, I would not bother to post responses to these crazy fishing expeditions but for my concerns about the honest education of newcomers and interested people who do not have access to a large library of research materials. To sit back and allow the unfettered dissemination of false and derogatory information is to permit those genuinely eager to learn to be misled, manipulated and misinformed. I consider this to be as big a threat to the future of our breed as any other possible worry.

I apologize in advance if my language was too exotic for you to understand, or too complex for you to process as both you and Hansi have complained of so often, but I think that most people will not have a problem. Enough precious time spent on this. Over and out.
Caryn Rogosky
HLM
Dear Echo1

I asgree with yo
It is talked about Dr Branch doing this or that and having factual
evidence. this I like to see. According to what I know Dr Branch hardly ever got involved with anything after his retirement in 1932 and there is absolutely no evidence that he selected Mashaan for the RAS. Matter of fact I dont know of any evidence that he selected Nabras either. He was aquired first by Mohamed Al-Atribi Pasha from the El Agidaad Tribe in Syria prior to 1925. Where do all those sudden "facts" come from, nobody elese knows anything about?

Nabras first offspring was "Enzahi" 1935 bred by the Kafr Stud Farm. According to my records he was aquired by Kafr Farouk Stud in 1934. All offspring where bred by Kafr Faruk Stud,a branch of the RAS, and there is no evidence that Dr Branch supervised such or had anything to do with it. If this is incorrect, then we need to see some form of proof and not wishful thinking.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms..
HLM
Echo1

I forgot to ad that I have been at the EAO more than once and have looked at their herdbooks/studbooks. Those who claim to know more apear to have never set foot in the Middle east and go strictly by accumpsions.

Personally I dont care what SOFI does, they lost in my opinion all crediability,have no reasearcher with great factual knowledge and I like to know how many archives they went through, how many middle east countries they visited etc. To state what the Jockey club records say, when never even having looked at them, is another one of those fata morganas.How can anybody believe all these fabrications made.The next thing they will claim is that aiglon stood at the RAS and RAS owned Laila. that would really fill the cup., ha.

May be they have documents signed with a rubber stamp left by Dr Branch and others. they might try this trick too.

What they should really do try these horses under their acceptance if it is breeding stock to be preserved based on the under saddle accomplishments
I know of a great one, I doubt if they even know about it.
So I guess its pedigree breeding, living in a cloud of wishful thinking.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 05:28 PM)
Quote Kelly:
"Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career."

The Sheiykh states that he leased the horse to the RAS after "he" retired him from his racing career, however, the RAS also raced their stallions. The Jockey Club records do not state whose ownership Mashann raced under but since he was leased to the RAS the ownership would likely not have been changed in any event.


Caryn, DO NOT add to what is written.  That is where you get yourself in trouble. AL KHAMSA states "Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud if Prince Failsal in Saudi Arabia"   WHERE does it say what your wrote? please quote this source.


HOWEVER, there is a very distinct break and division in Machaan's racing records. They show that he raced hard during the 1928-1929 racing season, in which whe ran 12 races, won 4, came in 2nd for 5, was 9th in earnings. This is noted before the remaining racing years are listed, as if a synopsis for that chapter of his career. Then, he did not race at all for the following season : 1929-1930, 1930-1931, 1931-1932. Seems like a retirement to me.  A three year gap in a racing record is not typical, in fact, the records of approximately 70 different horses provided in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (J. Forbis) show that not one of them had such a gap. All raced consecutive years throughout their careers, except for two cases where there was a single season missed. Then, Mashann raced again for two more seasons but not consecutively 1932-1933, did not race in 1933-1934, and then raced only twice in the season of 1934-1935 but did not place in either.

Exactly, he was leased to the RAS AFTER his racing career, which ended in 1935, which is what everyone is saying.

"Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

That statement is meaningless and defies logic, indicates absolutely nothing whatsoever relative to the issue of whether or not Mashaan was acquired by Dr. Branch -- which he was.

OH yes it does mean something.  It means that he did not go to the RAS until AFTER his race career, in 1935, which is also AFTER DR.BRANCH left the RAS.  You stated that Dr. Branch supervised his breeding, I don't think so.... He went to the RAS in 1935, and bred a mare in 1937, and had a filly for the RAS in 1938...all of which took place after Dr Branch left in 1932.

"Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932."

No, wrong. Al Khamsa does not state that "Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935".  It states the following, and I quote: "Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information and gives the date as ca.1935 which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS." That little ca. stands for circa, meaning "around or about the time".  It is not specific. As I said before the dates given by Al Khamsa on this point are approximates and/or estimates...as is the case.

Good try, but  let us quote it exactly.

"Entry # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS HISTORY, and gives  a date of ca.1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS ."

The second part of your paragraph just amazes me how you are not following what Al Khamsa has written.  WHere do you get the liberty to just make things up?   We all know what circa means, and AL KHAMSA is saying although they give the date ca. 1935 which Mashaan went to the RAS, they feel the date is correct.    ON THIS POINT, they are saying the ca date when he went to the RAS is correct.  

Ca, dates are primarily seen for dates of birth in Al Khamsa, Al Khamsa clearly states this.  On this specific point in reference to when he went to the RAS they are saying this is CORRECT... 1935.   Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year, and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. 



Do you believe that the information obtained by Judi Forbis is fabricated or false?

Yes I believe Judi Forbis, it is you that I do not believe.  And I resent the fact you pull the Judi  card here.  Judi Forbis is quoted as saying in regards to Mashaan : " Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia" 

If so, I suggest you take your argument to her. However, I have found the information she has provided on so many matters to be very reliable.

Good, I am glad you find her as a reliable souce as does most everyone else.  She stated the horse did not go to the RAS until AFTER his racing career .  Which did end in 1935 according to the records of the Jockey Club, egypt.

Furthermore, this information was obtained in a in a personal interview with THE person who would know the details at the time, the owner of the horse, who would have no reason to specifically indicate that Dr. Branch was the manager of the RAS when Maashan went there if it were not true.

Here's my question and please quote the exact quote as it is written,on page 124 of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock.   . ARE THEY referring to the horse being "approved by the RAS- under the managaement for Dr Branch"... for RACING ....and then years later, was leased to the RAS for breeding?

Wouldn't that be more likely the truth Caryn?  SInce the Jockey Club shows the horse raced up until 1935 .  Everyone attests to that fact, and everyone attests to the fact that he did not go to the RAS until AFTER he finished racing.   



Again with the RAS History Book: This is just another example of why this book cannot be relied upon as the end-all and be-all source for information on activity at the RAS prior to the year the book was published. It is an invaluable asset which provides a wealth of knowledge and insight into the breeding activites during early years at the RAS. However, the information was gathered and compiled more than a decade after Dr. Branch retired, by a third party whose knowledge and recollections were not derived in the capacity of the Director, and therefore, had to be lacking to some extent. This book was never intended to be a registry and was never claimed by the author or the sponsor to be an entirely complete or absolutely accurate account of all activities at the RAS from 1914 through its publication. 

Cannot be relied upon?  Whatever do you mean?  You're not suggesting that you are a more reliable source for what happened at the RAS back then....are you?


"Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question"

Oh isn't that the question? Actually, I believe that was precisely the question. And it was answered. Yes, despite the efforts of yourself and Hansi to prove otherwise, Mashaan is qualified.


Please Caryn, get a grip, the point is that Mashaan was approved, he qualifies and to put it bluntly since you don't seem to grasp all of this is that your group qualifed this horse based on  a 'definition' or a set of criteria,  and any logical person can see that El Deree meets the SAME criteria as Mashaan. The same definition you use to qualify horses for your club should be the same for all horses. PERIOD.   And all this 'under the auspices' of Dr Branch" is just a small thread that you are holding onto which is beginning to unravel with the new hujay on El Deree.  

" my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????"

Again, a meaningless composite of inaccuracies, complete misquotes and gross misstatements.

Hardly the case, Dr Branch retired in 1932, Mashaan did not go to the RAS until 1935.  He did not have his first foal until 1938. A gross misstatement would be that Dr Branch approved a horse for the RAS breeding program when he was not there.

I am not saying anything other than Mashaan is a qualified SOFI foundation horse, a qualified AK horse, and a qualified SE horse as per the criteria for inclusion by each of these organizations.


Great, because that is what I am saying too, HE is SE, Al Khamsa and SOFI. But the key question is WHY is he SOFI?  Can you tell us WHY, can you give the criteria, because I would like it to be applied equally and by the same measure to all horses, who meet the same credentials.


I suggest that both you and Hansi do your own research and confirm your own data rather than expecting others to do it for you.

I have, can YOU say the same?

You apparently both assume that you have every right to make defamatory public statements about our foundation ancestors and/or our qualifying organizations based on very poor research efforts, abstract supposition, obscure theory, wild conjecture and other such nonsense.

You appently are wrong. I am not making a defamatory public statement.  I am saying SHOW me how YOU came to the conclusion to not include El Deree yet hopscotch around and pick Nabras and Mashaan and leave out El Deree? You are the one who should be explaining, not I.

You then expect that it is the obligation of others to spend all of their time defending against such. Well I disagree.

You are the one who claims to be the founder of SOFI, so shouldn't it be YOU who can answer questions on your group that you formed?  Or are we all to assume you are so higly self appointed and self decorated to not have to speak with the general public?

You are also both apparently incapable of admitting that you are wrong when shown to be, or of apologizing to those you so frequently offend with your false accusations, insults and harassment, which is unending.

How clever of you to try to make me out to be the bad guy, this sentence is pure projection on your part.  And you are wrong, I can only speak for myself, and I am saying that the PRESERVATION community needs to account for this new information on El Deree and make corrections.   Your  obstinance is what should be apologized for if anything. You're failure to act or respond to this new hujay is embarrassing to anyone involved in preservation breeding.  Are you or are you not open to receive new information, and are you willing to make any adjustments if need be.  All registries and groups have an open book policy,  what is YOUR policy in regards to your group, we would like to know. 

If you don't like or agree with the selection of foundation horses of an organization, just don't participate. I don't believe anyone is knocking down your respective doors trying to convince you to so.

Actually I received an email from the President of SOFI asking me to join and be a member of SOFI just the other day.

But I do find it interesting that for people who constantly bemoan the emphasis on labels, you spend an awful lot of time trying to prove that your own horses ought to qualified to wear them all.

Do you want to talk about my personal business here and now?  We breed SE horses, some are Heirloom, some are Heirloom/El Deree, some are SE, some even have Exochorda.  What is the problem Caryn, did I forget to ask you what I am allowed to do?  I will tell you this, using 'certain' labels has proved to be very bad for business. And many prosepective buyers have viewed it as a turn off.

Because I have no interest in effecting the beliefs of either you or Hansi one way or the other, I would not bother to post responses to these crazy fishing expeditions but for my concerns about the honest education of newcomers and interested people who do not have access to a large library of research materials.

Sure, throw in the 'little guy' for the sympathy vote and mention how you are protecting all the newcomers.  Just explain to me once and I will never ask again, what have you done in terms of education, promotion and marketing to help the newcomers?

To sit back and allow the unfettered dissemination of false and derogatory information is to permit those genuinely eager to learn to be misled, manipulated and  misinformed. I consider this to be as big a threat to the future of our breed as any other possible worry.

What information I have posted is taken from Al Khamsa II, the recent Hujay on El Deree, and what most find as credible.  I do not know of many people who find the truth something to fear or perceive the truth as a threat.

I apologize in advance if my language was too exotic for you to understand, or too complex for you to process as both you and Hansi have complained of so often, but I think that most people will not have a problem. Enough precious time spent on this. Over and out.

No problem Caryn, I do not find hogwash to be exotic by any means.  Yes, I do agree 20 years spent trying to double talk your way though things is wasting precious time.
Caryn Rogosky
*


Have a great evening and I do wish you well. I hope you can someday understand that this is NOT an attack, but rather a reconciliation of horses. I am sorry if you feel that this is personal, it is not, nor does it have to be.

I asked you ONE simple question....

Does your group endorse the RAS horses or not? Mashaan is listed by Al Khamsa as an RAS horse.
HLM
Dear Echo 1

I truly thank you for your post in reply to a person who has created so much trouble and confusion, and I never had the words to set it straight. I have gone through 13 years of humiliation, even vulgarity thrown at me, and anything I brought forward to educate was instantly attacked. I resented it especially when it came from a person who has no clue of research and prefers fishing trips.

Many people are afraid of such person, who is using a flanboyant english, throwing names about, making statements which are so far fetched. When caught in a lie, then correct it with a man who died 18 years ealier, LEFT A RUBBER STAMP, to be placed on a pedigree produced here in 1994 or similar fabrications..

The only reason why I persued the el Deree issue so adamently was to set these bad rumors straight, produce evidence superiror to that of Exochorda, to which always is referred to in conjunction with El Deree. What the person does not realize is how deeply she insulted the Beduins and their honor. I assure you this might close any door for the person and her cronies to get any data verified. the word it out! They would be afraid that it is totally misintepreted and continous dishonor thrown on their centuries old history of breeding desert bred Arabians.

I still have a very close friendship contact with retired EAO officials and if asked can try to produce some data which could explain matters. My new friendships made in Syria with some of the most knowledgable pedigree experts in the field, together with the access to high sheikhs of numerous tribes and clans, might make it possible to also eventually throw light on Aiglon and Leila. Already have I gotten a millimeter closer.

what truly amazed me that none of these people joined the conference in Syria. Surely, if convinced that they are on the right path, they should have been there to verify. I think they knew that they would have come back with a red face.

Researchers internationally exchange data, help each other in a dignified manner, they dont lie or invent, fabricate or allow wishful thinking. And they love sharing it with those interested, helping our newcommers and beginners in research.
But also we are human and make mistakes, and when adequate data is provided, stand corrected. If we would not do this, we would lose all respect and creditability.

Again, many thanks Echo1, you just made my evening, and I know that of many, many people in this world.

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Caryn Rogosky
A couple of stray pieces to tie up:

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 "
I believe that this statement is false. I do not see it anywhere in the book, nor do I see any date given in the book for when Mashaan went to the RAS. If given the page number with the exact quote I will gladly stand corrected.

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

The implication that this was Mashaan's first foal born at the RAS is false. He sired at least 6 foals prior to that at the RAS, beginning in 1936.

1) Listed in the RAS History book, is a foal named Nagia (entry # 44), born on November 9, 1936 at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was Mashaan, the dam was Khafia.

2) Also, on April 15, 1936, a foal named Ragii was born (entry # 60) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire if this foal was also Mashaan, ther dam was Hind.

3) Also, on Dec, 12, 1936, a foal named Nagi was born (entry # 33) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Magboura.

4) Also, on March, 12, 1937, a foal named Kasid Kheir was born (entry # 82) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Samha.

5) Also, on March, 15, 1937, a foal named Kamar was born (entry # 29) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Fayda.

6) Also, on April 8, 1937, a foal named Salem was born (entry #34). He was also sired by Mashaan, and ws a full brother to Nagi (entry #33).

7) Then, on Aug. 25th, 1938, a foal named Shams was born (entry # 52) at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, dam was Bint Samiha. This is the foal you referred to as the "first" foal by Mashaan born to the RAS.

There were at least three more foals sired by Mashaan in 1938.
2mntn
Hello,

I must say folks, that to an SE newbie like me, this is pure hell to sort out!! I don't think I have anything important to add in regard to the records, the rules and the application thereof. Which is why I am a newbie.

However, after slogging through the sarcasm and rude behavior, I think I will withhold judgment on trying to make a decision on anything SE.

I very much appreciated Kelly's calm, logical, point-by-point attempt to clarify things. And I'm left with one question as follows:

Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? blink.gif

Confused out here in little-person land,
Ray
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 03:04 AM)
A couple of stray pieces to tie up:

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 "
I believe that this statement is false. I do not see it anywhere in the book, nor do I see any date given in the book for when Mashaan went to the RAS. If given the page number with the exact quote I will gladly stand corrected.

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

The implication that this was Mashaan's first foal born at the RAS is false. He sired at least 6 foals prior to that at the RAS, beginning in 1936.

1) Listed in the RAS History book, is a foal named Nagia (entry # 44),  born on November 9, 1936 at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was Mashaan, the dam was Khafia.

2) Also, on  April  15, 1936,  a foal named Ragii was born (entry # 60) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire if this foal was also Mashaan, ther dam was Hind.

3) Also, on  Dec, 12, 1936,  a foal named Nagi was born (entry # 33) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Magboura.

4) Also, on  March, 12, 1937,  a foal named Kasid Kheir was born (entry # 82) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Samha.

5) Also, on  March, 15, 1937,  a foal named Kamar was born (entry # 29) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Fayda.

6) Also,  on April 8, 1937, a foal named Salem was born (entry #34).  He was also sired by Mashaan, and ws a full brother to Nagi (entry #33).

7) Then, on Aug. 25th, 1938, a foal named Shams was born  (entry # 52) at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, dam was Bint Samiha. This is the foal you referred to as the "first" foal by Mashaan born to the RAS.

There were at least three more foals sired by Mashaan in 1938.
*



6 -7- 10 foals by Mashaan all born after 1932 . Are there any born in the RAS by Mashaan before 1932?
Echo1
Ray,
You made me smile. You have a good sense of humor. biggrin.gif
Echo1
Hansi,
You're welcome.
I prefer always to keep the discussion as polite as possible to exchange information in a friendly way.
Caryn Rogosky
Kelly said:
Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year.

No, see the RAS History book, or my post above for the six other foals born over the two years prior to that. But I see you've now slid away from that claim, although you said it was proven. So, proven or not? Or now it doesn't matter?

Kelly said:
"and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. "

Really? And where is that "CLEARLY NOTED"? Is that also in the RAS History Book? If so, give us the page number because I've not seen it. If not what is your proof that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932? Exact source please.

You have repeatedly claimed that the RAS History book says that Mashaan went there in 1935. What page exactly is that on?
Also, before going any further with replies to your comments, I have a simple question Kelly: Do you actually have the RAS History book and Judith Forbis' Authentic Arbian Bloodstock, original volume? Yes or no? If yes, are you actually consulting them before posting here?
Caryn Rogosky
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 05:48 AM)
Kelly said:
Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year.



No, see the RAS History book, or my post above for the six other foals born over the two years prior to that. But I see you've now slid  away from that claim, although you said it was proven. So, proven or not? Or now it doesn't matter? 


Al Khamsa II, page 74, under the heading Mashaan (RAS) it is clearly noting the exact year (Shams) that  the foal was born

"Shams (RAS) 1938 bm out of Bint Samiha (RAS)


Kelly said:
"and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. "

Really? And where is that "CLEARLY NOTED"? Is that also in the RAS History Book?  If so, give us the page number because I've not seen it.  If not what is your proof  that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932? Exact source please.

The source was YOU.  On the SOFI website, under the webpage "Facts about SOFI horses. "  You , Caryn, have clearly noted the date of Dr Branch's retirement.  I took you at your word from your SOFI website.  You're website on SOFI facts states as follows:

"Question # 7. Why did SOFI exclude the Inshass horses, they too were pure desert bred?"

"This organization {referring to SOFI} was created to celebrate an important historic chapter in the preservation of Egyptian Arabian horses, particular original ancestors who are at the core of ALL Egyptian Arabian horses. This particular era has been defined as beginning with the importations of Mohammed Ali The Great, and ending with the retirement of Dr. Branch of the RAS around 1932."



You have repeatedly claimed that the RAS History book says that Mashaan went there in 1935. What page exactly is that on?

No, I have repeated claimed "Al Khamsa II' states the following on page 74 under the heading Mashaan 
"Forbis adds thta Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudia Arabia.  Entry # 6075 in the Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS HISTORY, and gives a dated of ca. 1935 , which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS "


Also, before going any further with replies to your comments, I have a  simple question Kelly: Do you actually have the RAS History book and Judith Forbis' Authentic Arbian Bloodstock, original volume? Yes or no? If yes, are you actually consulting them before posting here?

So far I have only quoted from Al Khamsa II.  I will however begin to use other sources to quote from if you would like to open the discussions further. I do not have an RAS History book, but I do have all of Judi Forbis' books as well as other books to quote from.  I will also be going to the ME and to Egypt this year to try and find some information on other horses, including Laila II (Marquata - spelling variations as well), would you care to join me?
Caryn Rogosky
*


Have a great day. smile.gif
Caryn Rogosky
As I thought. Kelly has been referencing, presenting statements of "fact" from, and debating the content of references sources which she does not have and/or has not consulted. This explains my growing sense that this debate has been like being stuck in a carnival fun-house where everything is distorted and out of whack. Someone who does not own or have in their posession the RAS History book, or the Authentic Arabian Bloodstock book is not prepared to debate their contents, nor are they in any position to claim tor imply that others are misstating or misrepresenting the information within these books. Only someone who does have this material, and can verify my references to them, can fully appreciate the absurdity of this situation.

There have been many statements made here by both Hansi and Kelly, and conclusions drawn on the subject of Mashaan with the clear intent to prove that he is not a qualifed SO ancestor, which are based on incorrect information, false implication, distortions and convoluted reasoning. I will not continue to debate this topic under these circumstances. Every piece of information that I have presented has been accurate and I have given my sources for them. For the sake of those who are interested in knowing what is and what is not true regarding Mashaan, I will compile a separate information sheet and inlcude my exact references for each item. Anyone who has the sources which I am referencing can then verify my statements themselves, and draw their own conclusions.
Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
Ray said:

"Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? "


Hi Ray,
The RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch refers to the official acts of Dr. Branch on behalf of the RAS during his tenure there. So, to answer your question, because his retirement meant he would no longer be acting as an official of the RAS, yes...he did take his "auspices' with him when he left. smile.gif

While the RAS continued for a period under the direction of very qualified and dedicated Directors (prior to becoming the EAO), the end of Dr. Branch's time there marked the end of a very significant chapter in the long history of breeding in Egypt. However, while the year 1932 is a reference for the time of Dr. Branch's retirement, it is not, to my knowledge, an exact or "proven" date. As you can see, the Facts Page on the SOFI webpage does not state1932 as an exact year: "This particular era has been defined as beginning with the importations of Mohammed Ali The Great, and ending with the retirement of Dr. Branch of the RAS around 1932" This was intentionally left non-specific for good reason. There are many details pertaining to events of the early years of Egyptian breeding, including dates, which are not specifically known. For this reason all credible sources are careful to use the terms "about, around or circa (ca)" in such circumstances when exact dates are not available. However, as time goes by and bits of information do become available, more evidence is uncovered which helps to clarify some of the uncertainty in many matters. I will provide more information which I have recently come across which narrows this time frame much closer, and I'll go into more detail on that in a separate post.
Caryn Rogosky
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 02:13 PM)
As I thought. Kelly has been referencing, presenting statements of "fact" from, and debating the content of references sources which she does not have and/or has not consulted.

Al Khamsa II, was all I quoted from.  You haven't been able to get past two sentences from the Al Khamsa II.  Or the 'facts'  you have posted on your website, under the heading "FACTS ABOUT SOFI"  I did not go any further, but I can if you would like. 
The question was/is...what year did Mashaan go to the RAS, and what year did Dr Branch leave the RAS? Your defintion for a horse to be SOFI qualified is the horse must be approved  by the RAS 'under the auspices of Dr Branch "
Simply, you're dates to not match and I am asking for clarification to reconcile horses according to YOUR definition of what makes a horse SOFI. If you are the one who formed this conclusion should I ask you or should I ask someone else? 



This explains my growing sense that this debate has been  like being stuck in a carnival fun-house where everything is distorted and out of whack.

That may be your feelings.  Possibly because your story doesn't match up. 

Someone who does not own or have in their posession the RAS History book, or the Authentic Arabian Bloodstock book is not prepared to debate their contents, nor are they in any position to claim tor imply that others are misstating or misrepresenting the information within these books. Only someone who does have this material, and can verify my references to them, can fully appreciate the absurdity of this situation.

Can you please get us past Al Khamsa II and Your Website Facts before we move onto the next book? When you can, I'd be happy to move to the next book,. 

There have been many statements made here by both Hansi and Kelly, and conclusions drawn on the subject of Mashaan with the clear intent to prove that he is not a qualifed SO ancestor, which are based on incorrect information, false implication, distortions and convoluted reasoning.

No, YOU qualified him for your group, and I asked HOW, based on a defintion YOU wrote ?  THe horse is not in question, your defintion that you came up with on how you qualifed this horse is what is in question. 


I will not continue to debate this topic under these circumstances.

IAnd what circumstances are they? 

Every piece of information that I have presented has been accurate and I have given my sources for them.

Incorrect

For the sake of those who are interested in knowing what is and what is not true regarding Mashaan, I will compile a separate information sheet and inlcude my exact references for each item.

Please do.  I am one of those who is interested. Facts in full context and source. No opinion necessary until all the facts are put forth. 

Anyone who has the sources which I am referencing can then verify my statements themselves, and draw their own conclusions.

I will look forward to doing so.

Caryn Rogosky
*


Have a great day.
HLM
Dear Ray

There is nothing more beautiful and rewarding to me when a person wants to learn more, asks questions and continues education.

I dont think anybody knows what Dr Branch did after 1932. What I was told years ago by an EAO Director (Dr Marsafi) that he was not of good health than and helped some other local Veterinarians.There is no evidence that he continued in any way with the RAS. He aparently did not only care for Horses,but also for donkeys, cammels, water buffalos, etc.I was guest of Dr Marsafi in egypt and he visited us in Canada and we discussed many things, things I had to learn and understand.

since he was not that important of a Vet to some officials, I guess nobody really followed up. there have been many Veterinarians as head of the rAS/EAO, just like Dr abdel Alim Ashoub-head of the Animal-Breeding Section. There were numerous other renowned directors, veterinnarians etc duing the life of the RAs and EAO. Dr Zaghloul is another one, a dear old friend of mine, now taking care of the Royal Bahraini Stud in Bahrain. From him I also learned a great deal, as from Dr Mabrouk, another director of the EAO.Last time we met, the latter, was in 1998 in Cairo,Egypt during long discussions.One subject was Aiglon and Leila nobody knew anything about or even heard off. All I was told "if the horses raced they most likely returned to their homeland bought by others nobody knew anything about" .These are experienced people knowing many horses of the past and their history and most certainly that of the RAS/EAO. I also learned from Gulson's Father, grandson of A P Sherif, who knew so much of the past and proudly shared with me important information.Also he was clueless about the horses mentioned above..But so was Generale Salim El Dahda,who I aproached already in 1994 for data in Morocco..

As you can imagine, I was not there at that time, was just a year old when Dr Branch retired and all I can state is what I was told by people I learned to trust.
But some of these people alive today, even in their high 80ties still remember so much. thos in doubt should really go abroad and check things out themselves rather than relying on fantasies.

I was also told by a dear Syrian friend that it is against the honor of the beduins to change a horses name, but alright to ad a racing name. Both names are carried forward and are never changed.I guess now we have to combat another fable.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
2mntn
Hello Caryn,

Thank you for your response. One of my faults is making assumptions when evaluating data to build an understanding of historical events, or any other subject, for that matter.

I had assumed, given that a group of horses were designated as SO based in part upon a period of time when Dr. Branch was involved with the RAS, that Dr. Branch was a person of significance. Therefore, the actions of a person of significance would be very well known and documented - and most especially his retirement.

I also assume that Dr. Branch "brought something to the table" in terms of better documentation or more control of breeding during his tenure, which was either lost or became untrustworthy after he retired. Otherwise, the ending date for the designation would have been some years later?

Thanks again,
Ray
Caryn Rogosky
Ray said:
"I also assume that Dr. Branch "brought something to the table" in terms of better documentation or more control of breeding during his tenure, which was either lost or became untrustworthy after he retired. Otherwise, the ending date for the designation would have been some years later?"

Hi Ray,
Yes, you're right, he absolutely did bring something to the table, and was highly acclaimed for his impact on Arabian breeding in Egypt, and eventually throughout the world. You may know that he was the man who chose the horses for Henry Babson to import to America, and he was also the man who imported the horses from Crabbet Stud to Egypt...resulting in the breeding which produced Nazeer.

However, this importance is not related to documentation per se, and Dr. Ashoub who took his post was without question a highly credible man.of great integrity. In general, documentation was not what we are accustomed to today, but Branch was known to have kept excellent records and notes. He did, however, keep them all in English, so these were translated (into French, I believe) when Dr. Ashoub compiled these records and notes in order to produce the RAS History book in 1948, but then translated back into English again. It may be that some details were lost in the translation process, and it may also be that some actual notes and records may have been lost. But the greatest significance of Dr. Branch was of a unique philosophy, a devotion to preserving the pure Bedouin Arabian horse in Egypt, an extraordinary and diverse involvement with the Arabian horse community, and a very close relationship with the royal breeders of Egypt at that time. He was also tough and unyielding, and some people did not like his manner. Nonetheless, he was not only Director of Animal Breeding at the RAS from when it first began breeding purebred Arabians, in 1914, but he was also the President of the Jockey Club Classification Committee, Director of the Government Veterinary service, and a superb breeder in his own right. He was also very close to, and provided consultation to the Princes on the private breeding programs as well. In fact, his son was named Kemal (middle name) after Prince Kemal El Din.

There's a great deal of information on Dr. Branch published in various books, but an especially good source is the first volume of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. She has included an 8 page tribute to him there, starting on page 101. If you have the book, you might enjoy reading this. Also, here's a bit from a letter from Jack Humphrey to W.R. Brown, written in 1932. Humphrey was at the RAS acting as an agent for Mr. Brown, and in this letter he was reporting back to him on his experiences. Humphrey writes:
"First, Dr. Branch is the highest man in his department here in Egypt. He has been here for 35 years, first under the British and then the Egyptian Government. His word is taken as law, and in cases of exportation his is the final say on any permit". Humphrey further states, "He has known the Arab horse in Egypt for this whole time and has been intimately connected with their breeding and development even longer than the Prince himself."

That's just a little slice of background on why most historians consider his retirement from the RAS to mark the end of an era; there is so much more, but I hope this at least gives you a glimpse of the significance of Dr. Branch.

Caryn Rogosky
2mntn
Caryn,

Thanks for taking the time for a lengthy response. biggrin.gif I'd better break out some books..

Ray
Inchallah Arabians
QUOTE (HLM @ May 19 2007, 02:16 AM)
Researchers internationally exchange data, help each other in a dignified manner, they dont lie or invent, fabricate or allow wishful thinking. And they love sharing it with those interested, helping our newcommers and beginners in research.
But also we are human and make mistakes, and when adequate data is provided, stand corrected. If we would not do this, we would lose all respect and creditability.

Again, many thanks Echo1, you just made my evening, and I know that of many, many people in this world.

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
*


Really?? Maybe I misunderstood you but you stated that : "I dont think it is fair to give you documents etc, when it took me years and fortunes to aquire them"
Please don't tell me you wish to share data with researchers when you refuse a couple of days ago to provide me with some copies... I am still hoping you will do so some day. You will have no problem to find my mailing adress I think.

Regards,
Amelie
HLM
Yes Ameli that is correct, we exchange data ,let each other look into some and at times even give a document copy. A qualified researcher knows what to do with data. a newcommer might not but is given details they can research on their own.
Yes I denied sending you "documents" and suggested you do your own research.
Now if you wish to come and visit me, I gladly open files for you you like to see.
It takes great experiences to properly research a foreign document, and unless one understands the language or at least the cultures, it can be, and has been totally misconstrued.

When I need or want somethjing, I go there, such as other countries or archives whereever.

some of us have given plenty of data on this forum, some has been ridiculed and even the details on the El Deree document called by one of the posters" Garbage"!!!
However, with regard to El Deree, I openly invited anybody over this forum to e-mail me, if they wish a copy by fax. that includes you my dear.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Kelly and all

May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.

Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy.

Nowhere is Dr Branch mentioned, but Dr Ahmed Mabrouk is, former head of the Breeding section of the RAS, was delegated by their commission to study breeding methods in the Hedjaz, Nedj, Iraq and Syria. As was then as it is today that a commission of the (RAS) now EAO DECIDES WHAT TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH, WHICH THEN IS VOTED ON AND PRESENTED TO THE dIRECTOR of such animal section. It has up to date never been the authority of a "Director" ONLY. This :Horse Commission" was created for the Government of egypt in 1892 under the presidency of the late Price Omar Toussoun and is in existance today and full force todate..

.Dr Branch is consistently brought up by a poster and given authority by such he never had, nor did any director in the same position. DR Branch's name is actually mentioned nowhere I can find in books published or authered in Egypt. If there is one, please let me know, I like to buy a copy. That does not mean in any way,shape or form that Dr Branch did not do a good job. However, it stated nowhere that he actually selected breeding stock for the RAs. That would not have been his job anyway. He was to inspect livestock-horses- give his attention to treatments and sign export certificates verifying ownership of a horse for export.

Many other reliable sources have visited the EAO over the years, one is Judi Parks, who are familiar with the set-up and can give their opinion on it as well, if they like.

therefore, neither Mashaan, Nabras or any other stallion of that era has been selected by Dr Branch. Since they and El Deree were used by the RAS, selected by their committee, indeed El Deree should have been a SOFI labeled horse, if this would now matter to anybody. I also can not find any mention of Aiglon. this is what I pointed out to Walter Schimanski, and when not adheared to, cancelled my membership of SOF.

When the committe votes to have a horse run either in a purebred or non-purebred race, the conlusion is presented to the Animal Section director, who automatically, it appears, approves it. this would make sense because not always do vetenerians have expriences with certain details.and most certainly the directors do not attended then, as they dont now, such examination of horses or the voting of the a committee.Al such directors see is a piece of paper the voting results are written on. the Directors are not part of committies, otherwise it would be unethical or conflict of interest..What they are authorized to do however is to decide which mare is bred to what stallion under their jurisdiction. But that is far removed from them having the authority to aquire breeding stock on their own for the Government.

I trust that many a fabel, fantasie and wishful thinking is laid to rest and you all be guided as to the creditability of certain parties making such statements.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity arabian Farms





.
Eyegor
QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 12:26 AM)
Yes Ameli that is correct, we exchange data ,let each other look into some and at times even give a document copy. A qualified researcher knows what to do with data. a newcommer might not but is given details they can research on their own. 
Yes I denied sending you "documents" and suggested you do your own research.
Now if you wish to come and visit me, I gladly open files for you you like to see.
It takes great experiences to properly research a foreign document, and unless one understands the language or at least the cultures, it can be, and has been totally misconstrued.

When I need or want somethjing, I go there, such as other countries or archives whereever.

some of us have given plenty of data on this forum, some has been ridiculed and even the details on the El Deree document called by one of the posters" Garbage"!!!
However, with regard to El Deree, I openly invited anybody over this forum to e-mail me, if they wish a copy by fax. that includes you my dear.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not.

There you go again, leave it alone, no one gives a rat's patoot about what you preach don't you get it?????? You talk out of both sides of your mouth......not a single thing you have said so far can be proven by any research material, I would just like to know what your sources are, quote them please, so that we can see your reasoning. No you won't, your answer is do your own research. I can see you are really trying to educate????? Instead, you keep dribbling vitriolic, vindictive garbage out of your craw. Like I said on anotherthread, you answer questions with questions and instead of proving your opinions you simply to besmirch horses, people and anyone who does not agree. You are truly a class act, does Kindergarten sound about right?
Dear God, don't you have any selfrespect?
Laecherlich, absolut laecherlich.....bissig, bissig, you should be prevented from posting..you leave only wreckage in your wake......
have a nice day
Caryn Rogosky
Facts On Mashaan:

There are numerous research sources available for information on Michaan. Amongst them are:
AK1 and AKII

Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (original volume), three sections:
1.Article from 1970 titled, "Two Sheikh's And a Pasha" Page 127. This iinlcudes a personal interview by Judith Forbis with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who brought Mashaan to Egypt, trained him, raced him, and leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.
2. Judith Foris and Gusun Sherif 1968 Interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek. Page 134, referenced by Al Khamsa.
3. Jockey Club records at back of book for Mashaan

RAS HISTORY, published in 1948.

Of these three major resources, only one offers personal and first hand accounts of the circumstances surrounding the horse, and that is Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. That personal and first hand information was from the man who owned Mashaan, brought him to Egypt, trained him, raced him and leased him to the RAS. There are two articles, two different pages.

From the article on page 127 (see details above), the exact quote from Judith Forbis:
""Regardless, the Sheykh purchased him, and though weak from neglect the horse improved with good care, and under Sheykh Abdul Aziz's training won his first race by ten lengths-- among other races. When he retired MASHANN from the track, twelve wins to his credit, the Royal agricultural Society -- then managed by Dr. Branch -- leased the horse for a time and used him at stud. Later MAASHAN was given to Prince Faysal of Saudi Arabia as a gift from the Sheykh."

From the second article, Page 134
of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, taken from an interivew of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, conducted by Judith Forbis and Gusun Sherif. Quote Sheikh Abdul Aziz himself: "Michaan was in weak condition when I bought him, but after training he won his first race by 10 lengths. When he finished his racing career I leased him to the Royal Agricultural Society. Eventually my brother took Michaan back from Society and gave him to Prince Feisul of Saudi Arabia. Mischann was the purest of the pure"

No date is given in either of these interviews with Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who obviously had a clear recollection of the details surround his involvement with this horse, for the year that Mashaan was leased to the RAS. What is given is a very distinct detail, and that is that the Sheikh leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch. It's right there in black and white. One would think that the owner of the horse would have had direct communications with the man who was in charge of aquiring stallions for the RAS...and there would be absolutely no reason to think that the Sheikh would say that it was Dr. Branch if it was not Dr. Branch.

Al Khamsa I, page 75: "MASHAAN: The tribal information is from an article in the February, 1970, Arabian Horse World, "Two Sheikhs and a Pasha," by Judith Forbis, quoting Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Fawzan El Sabk. The article adds that Mashaan was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabian." (This article is the same one which appears in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock page 134.)
Note that no date is given here for when Mashaan went to the RAS.

Al Khamsa II, page 74: "MASHAAN: a ca. 1925 bay Kuhaylan-Ajuz stallion imported prior to 1928 to Egypt, where he was owned by Sheikh FawzanEl Sabek of Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. Aslo spelled Michaan. Notes: The above information is from the RAS History p. 29"
(Note that there is no reference to a date given in the RAS History here).
"An interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Farwzan El Sabek, (Saudi Arabian minister to Cairo) as published in Judith Forbis Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, p. 134 says that he (Sheikh Abdul Aziz) had purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt. He further is quoted as saying that Mashaan was from the El Jibur tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire. Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS afer his racing career and was terturned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia. Enty # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to he RAS."

Note again that Al Khamsa does not say that Judith Forbis gives the date of 1935, nor do they say that the RAS gives the date as 1935. They say that the Raswan Index shows the date as circa 1935. , which is an indefinite date. I do not have the Carl Raswan Index to check his entry

Obviously to all, the term "circa" is universally used to indicate and understood to mean an approximate date. Quote Al Khamsa I, on page 62 I, under FOUNDATION HORSES:
"Circa dates should not be considerd exact in any way; they are merely a guide"

The RAS History book P.29;
"Michaan, a oheilan Ajouz, belonging to H.E. Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek, former Minister of Saudi Arabia; it won 12 races." That's it. No date whatsoever given.

SOFI gives the date of Dr. Branch's retirement as "around 1932", it is not specifically stated as such. The exact date of Dr. Branch's retirement is unknown as of now. We do know that he facilitated the Babson importation in 1932, we also know that he was there and in charge when Jack Humphrey wrote the letter to W.R. Brown in 1932.

I have also come across this letter (portion of a letter)r, published in the article, ARABIAN BLOOD FOR STAMINA, Keene Richards' Own Account of His Two Desert Expeditions and His Arabian Importations.Edited by Thornton Chard:

"------amongst the Bedouin Arabs 15 hands is the normal maximum for the pure-bred. Anything over that is a phenomenal posability. The valuable and useful horse is normally 14.3. I stress that and ------------any horse exceeding 15 hands can only be found in conditions inconsistent with Bedouin life." From a letter December 20, 1933 to T.C. from Dr. A.E.Branch, Senior member of the Egyptian Jockey Club and late President of the Classification Committee."
Reference, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates...KROwnAcnt2.html
I do not know whether the letter was written during Dr. Branch's tenure or shortly after retirement. One can only make a best guess..It would appear to me that this was possibly just prior to his retirement, as he is referred to as the Senior Member of the Jockey Club (present) as well as "late" President of the Clasification Committee.

I have also found information which places Dr. Branch back in England as of March, 1935, as he is listed as one of the judges in an Arabian horse show which ws held in London.
Reference: The Journal Of The Arab Horse Society, 1935-1938, page 223.

Based on what I gather at this point, the window of time for when Dr. Branch retired from the RAS would have been after the Babson imports in 1932, after the Jack Humphrey letter in 1932, and before he is recorded as being in London in March of 1935. He may still have been there for part of 1933, when he wrote the letterto "T.C."

Readers are encouraged to please verify the information and references I have provided, and to draw their own conclusions.

SOFI accepts that Maashan was aquired by the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch, and is a qualified root horse based on its criteria for inclusion.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Caryn Rogosky
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