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HLM
Dear Cathy

come on now, do you really believe what you just said? No I did not, these rumors are around for many years in Germany, just ask around. they are here too.
Since they were consistent, I took action. But it was not only one rumors, it refers to others stated before. So let is rest, please. Basically the subject was always "Sameh" leading to el Deree.

MInd you what bothers me a bit that you think I am running around tatle taling.
When I need to find something out, I go to what I consider reliable, intelligent people. I also always check with various people, not just with one. But also they are human, and since they did not take action to find out, I did. I am glad I did.
That should solve "Sameh problem" and some might now regret never getting into that bloodline. It is that of Serenity Sonbolah also, as many other great Sameh offspring, as you might now.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Hi Caryn,


I can understand the selection for SO based on the description that Kimberly provided..Probably because it doesn't get into the all the other questions of inclusion..But it seems as though there are many loopholes in the system... I still cannot reconcile how two horses can be at the same stud at virtually the same time, come from the same regions, and be sent to Egypt for the same reason basically to race and then breed on..One is considered under the suspices of Dr. Branch and the other is not..This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag...

If anyone can nicely get me past that snag I would appreciate it... Tracy
MAXHOPEMIME
The way I'm following it is......
Tacey,
I believe as Marilyn Lang stated HORSES DESIGNATED AS INSHASS WERE NOT INCLUDED. That would be El Dere right? Why I don't know I don't have time to look up why he is INSHASS and then RAS maybe some one will tell us when and how.

Here's my take on the
ElDeree, a powerful grey stallion who was said to have been BROUGHT to Egypt from Syria by an Egyptian merchant."

Hansi's document strongly refutes that statement. WE NOW KNOW HE WAS THE GIFT OF A SHAIKH TO A KING
In a lot of cultures the term "merchant" may cast doubt as to the integrity of the party referred to. After all merchant, trader, dealer all involve aquistion and disbursement for a profit.

The giftting of a horse between two heads of state was and is a gesture of good will and one would not send an inferior reresentative. A current example is the fine stallion now in Jenny Lees care.

Thats my opinion anyway
Chris
2mntn
Hi Tracy,

I have the same "issue" with this as you have outlined. How about an analogy? Sitting around the Saturday night card game, it's dealer's choice for the game. The SO founders made the rules for their game. You can either play that game by their rules or wait for the next dealer.

I had not known much about any of these organizations, but based upon this forum discussion, this is what I have learned from it. I don't yet see anything signficant setting SO bloodlines apart from any other SE.

Regards,
Ray
Nadj al Nur
I really am sorry Hansi, but I personally have never heard that "rumor" and niether apparently has anyone that I ever talked to.
If, as you say, the subject was always Sameh, then why did you not say that in the first place.
You are the one who always says that you should not go by rumors, yet not a half a page ago, you appologise for making statements based on rumors when you DO HAVE THE BOOK to check and see if it is a true statement or not. Surely, it would be a lot simpler to just find the book (or buy a new one, if you really cannot find it) than to go all the way to Syria, to correct a statement that was never even made.
Also, I do consider myself to be a reasonably reliable and also reasonably intellegent person, as are many others, who already knew the truth of the matter, and I resent the implication that we, collectively are NOT.Why didn't you just ask one of us to photocopy the page for you. I would gladly have done so, to save you all that trouble.

Ray
Doesn't MATTER A WHIT whether the word was merchant, trader, or dealer. What matters, is that the horse was merely DELIVERED by said person, not purchased . Hansi has in fact, provided the NAME of that person, who did become a merchant, as she states.
Cathy
HLM
Please Cathy dont make me angry. why should I go to syria to undo rumors? Have you spread them there???? I certainly did not.

I made myself quite clear that I have heard the complaints from numerous people in Germany for many years and also here that El Deree was supposed to be no good, was bought from a dea er Damascus or Aleppo and even had such discussions with the Seidlitz Family years ago. That led to "Sameh" and also he got quite a few discussions and complaints. Just because you have not heard it, does not mean that I should not have either. you have no idea the many e-mails calls I get about many a subject.

And please dont be so arrogant telling me to find the book or buy another one.
that is very rude young lady. If you see my office and books placed on top of each other every which way because I am running out of space, you might understand.
Futhermore I might be able to see better after my operation in June. Right now everything is a blurr. But this you might not understand either. I have trouble reading. It is also very hard for me to type and I hope you forgive my typos.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Carol Cooper-Hall
QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 02:56 PM)
Futhermore I might be able to see better after my operation in June. Right now everything is a blurr. But this you might not understand either. I have trouble reading. It is also very hard for me to type and I hope you forgive my typos.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*
Oh, I totally understand Hansi. Many elderly individuals have these eye problems. Perhaps you should rest your eyes for a while until after your surgery; the added strain I'm sure is not helping your condition. cool.gif
Cheers,
Carol
HLM
CArol dear, at my age every minute is a gift and must not be waisted. I wearing these dark sunglasses and it helps.Had to wear them all throught Syria even at night,ha. there is so much I must still do and was taught to never waist the Lord's day or burn sunlight..you be amazed what one can do if one has the will.

(by the way my "Ha" means I am smiling. ha.

anyway thanks for your kind advice, I know you mean it well.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Tous crins
QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 10:56 AM)
I made myself quite clear that I have heard the complaints from numerous people in Germany for many years and also here that El Deree was supposed to be no good, was bought from a dea er Damascus or Aleppo and even had such discussions with the Seidlitz Family years ago. That led to "Sameh" and also he got quite a few discussions and complaints. Just because you have not heard it, does not mean that I should not have either. you have no idea the many e-mails calls I get about many a subject.


Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*



I find this odd, why Sameh and not Morafic? if it was caused by El Deree...
Never heard that. I love Sameh.
Nadj al Nur
Hansi, I have no wish to make you, or anyone else angry, and fail to see why honest questions would do so.
YOU SAID, and I am quoting directly from YOUR post. "It was stated in the Hanan book, that El Deree was BOUGHT from SOME HORSE DEALER. To correct this statement I continued to research. Of course this statement was not well recieved in Syria and actually became an insult."
There are your EXACT words.
Mt question, once again, is, how could this statement, which in actual fact, does not exist, have been an insult to anyone. The statement was NEVER MADE, except right here on this forum.
You know very well that I have not been to Syria, but YOU have, so perhaps you could explain how the Syrian people were insulted by something that never happened.
That is the rumor I was referring to, and I know you hate rumors as much as I do.
Do you truly believe I am arrogant for wanting to understand how this could possibly have happened? If so, then I guess I am in good company and I do not believe that Dr. Nagel would be very pleased at all to have his words changed and then posted as fact.His relationship with people in the ME is exemplary and I am VERY sure that none of them would believe that he really said this. If you can find the source of this rumor then I am sure he and many others, including myself, would be most grateful.
Cathy
Carol Cooper-Hall
QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 03:27 PM)
CArol dear, at my age every minute is a gift and must not be waisted. I wearing these dark sunglasses and it helps.Had to wear them all throught Syria even at night,ha. there is so much I must still do and was taught to never waist the Lord's day or burn sunlight..you be amazed what one can do if one has the will.

(by the way my "Ha" means I am smiling. ha.

anyway thanks for your kind advice, I know you mean it well.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*
Both my parents have had to have eye surgery so I understand! wink.gif
Cheers,
Carol
HLM
OKay Cathy, here I explain it.

I mentioned it only to one of my friend who was able to get the grandson of the breeder, NOT ALL SYRIA. But believe it or not, some people in the room knew about the rumor, Europeans. I mentioned it in order to get verifycation of the horse.

Does this now make sense to you please?
so let it rest, and rather of on the trail to new discoveries. Got to get more horses off my back burner, ha.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Nadj al Nur
THANK YOU HANSI !!!!
Now I understand perfectly and I am grateful for your candor on this.
Cathy
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Tracy:
"This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag..."

Tracy, it is not correct that El Dere was a the RAS before Mashaan. If you or anyone else has some information that shows that Dr. Branch was at the RAS was El Dere was gifted, I would be be very interested to look at it. But nothing, in all of the books or records that I have reviewed over almost twenty years has even suggested such a link. On the other hand, and at the risk of being seriously redundant, according to the personal testimony of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, as reported in Judith Forbis in her published interview, Mashaan was leased by the RAS when Dr. Branch was managing the stud. Anyone is welcomed to either accept or reject that information as provided by Judith Forbis...SOFI accepts it.

With regard to the breeding records you mentioned; what records exactly are you speaking of? There is no information that I know of which provides the dates for when Mashaan was first used at stud. It is certainly not contained in the RAS History. It would not be a sound research process to assume an acquisition date of a stallion or even for when breeding began with a stallion, strictly from foaling dates of first recorded get. For one thing, this would not take into consideration any breeding that could have taken place for which a recorded foal was not produced. Many mares slip or abort foals, foals die after birth and are not recorded, etc., etc., etc. The RAS had a number of stallions in their possession. In fact, in 1948 the figures were 47 Stallions (including those who were annual sent to various breeding stations) and 35 mares. I don't know if you have stallions or not, but I had 10 at one time. We made decisions on what stallions we would use during certain seasons based on a variety of reasons. If you were to conclude a date for when we acquired, or even first started using some of the stallions we owned based upon recorded foal dates of get, you would not have drawn an inaccurate conclusion. I don't know the exact circumstances of Mashaan, no one here does, we weren't there and the records are sketchy at best. But the only solid evidence we do have is Judith Forbis' written word that states that he was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.

As you can see from the past arguments against the inclusion of Mashaan by SOFI, the first line of fire was that it was "proven" and recorded in the RAS History that he went there after 1935, after Dr. Branch retired. That was a false statement proven by the actual quote from the RAS History book. Either Kelly and Hansi don't have the book or didn't check it, I don't know which. Apparently both were also either unaware of the information provided by Judith Forbis, or they simply don't accept it as credible. However, now that the quote from her interview has been given, the argument has shifted to discrediting the importance of Dr. Branch. A very foolish approach for many reasons, and so very easy to disprove.

I'm sorry that I can't satisfy you with a short, simple answer without including background history. The fact is, that to understand the philosophy behind the creation of SOFI and the criteria used for root stock selection, one needs to understand the nature of the links between the 7 Foundation breeders and the era they defined. This is not something that can be summed up in a few short sentences, but can be discovered through reading many important books by many very credible authors, spanning many years. I've mentioned that the people responsible for initially selecting and approving the root stock for SOF were highly studied and far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. They understood the overview of historic factors involved, and believed that there was a very sound reason for subgrouping these horses in order to preserve and concentrate their blood within a closed genepool.

I do feel badly that I am not able to be more helpful to you, but I hope that you will keep your mind open to additional information as you may come across it. As time passes, you may find that many little bits of information begin to come together and finally create a complete and satisfying picture. On the other hand, that may never happen and I strongly believe that no one should support or participate in any type of breeding program which doesn't make sense to them. Whatever choices we make, we have to believe in what we are doing to make it work.
Regards,
Caryn
Inchallah Arabians
Dear Kelly,

Thank you very much! It is very nice. I am very lucky to live in France and have friends who were able to read the El Deree document for me already. But you are welcome anyway.
Actually, I was refering to several subjects Hansi pointed up to me regarding the horses Adhem, Exochorda (and her sire and dam) and Mashaan. I have been very lucky to visit my dear friend Caryn during my last trip to the U.S. and she kindly allowed me to look at her researches. She truely is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects. She has collected documents regarding some of the horses above and I am very grateful to her that she did share them with me and others.

Regards,

Amelie
MAXHOPEMIME
All of my horses trace back to El Dere, Exochorda, two toAdhem and TM/TD amd one withi a line to Nasrulla. I sure am glad I am not a paper pedigree elitist. I have horses with type, more importantly sound conformation and disposition
My horses are ASIL From the desert and when that big California earthquake comes I have no doubt in my mind that I will be able to load up my belongings and ride across country to Hansi's to camp out in her yard if I wanted to.
HA! (like Hansi' says I'm Smiling)

Now if I could just get my Asadd daughter to teach me to type and spell....

Have a Grand Day Everyone!
Chris
Gari
Amelie,

AMEN!

Am emailing you privately...

Gari
2mntn
Hi Cathy,

"Ray
Doesn't MATTER A WHIT whether the word was merchant, trader, or dealer. What matters, is that the horse was merely DELIVERED by said person, not purchased . Hansi has in fact, provided the NAME of that person, who did become a merchant, as she states.
Cathy

Oh yes it does matter, very much so. The NAME of that person only recently became known in the hujay Hansi brought back from Syria. Prior to that, all that was known was "Egyptian merchant". I suspect you are aware that in class system societies, the status of merchants (and horse traders in particular) is often lower than whale poop? Therefore, just the association with a merchant (name previously unknown) would cast doubt upon the quality of the horse - El Deree, in this case. Now that this person has been named, his background, relationships, etc. are known, it is clear that he was not the "horse trader" variety of merchant.

Ray
HLM
Dear Tracey

these are my records:

El Deree was with Inshass Stud until early 1934. He went to rAS in 1934 and his first foal crop for RAs where in 1935 (Amira (1935), Hazma (1935), Ibn el Dere (1935).

Mashaan came to the rAS in 1935-His first foal crop were Nagia (1936) and Nagi (1936).
Nabras also came to the rAs in 1934. His first foal crop for them
Enzahi (1935).

While it does not matter, Dr Branch was appaently no where near the RAS
or the Horse committe making decisions.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 21 2007, 09:36 PM)
Quote Tracy:
"This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag..."

First off I would like to add another disclaimer... I am not a researcher nor do I claim to be...But what I am seeing here still doesn't make sense... Tracy, it is not correct that El Dere was a the RAS before Mashaan.
[The few sources I have state he was gifted to the Society in 1934...His first foal recorded for the RAS is Sid Abouhom born 3/2/1936 per the El Masri data base...So, based on the foaling record her was there in early 1935... But the same situation you claim for Mashaan could in all reality apply to El Deree for example the slipped foal and aborted foals ect... Which could place him there earlier also... But the date I have seen quoted regularly is 1934...
If you or anyone else has some information that shows that Dr. Branch was at the RAS was El Dere was gifted Even you yourself can't not give any more than an approximate date for the retirement of Dr. Branch spanning between the dates of 1932 to 1935, if it was 1935 the year that Mashaan is noted as retiring from the track then Dr. Branch, El Deree, and Mashaan are all contemporaries...  I would be be very interested to look at it.  But nothing, in all of the books or records that I have reviewed over almost twenty years has even suggested such a link. On the other hand, and at the risk of being seriously redundant, according to the personal testimony of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, as reported in Judith Forbis in her published interview, Mashaan was leased by the RAS when Dr. Branch was managing the stud. Anyone is welcomed to either accept or reject that information as provided by Judith Forbis...SOFI accepts it.  I would assert that probably the questions weren't asked about El Deree since it was never clear who to talk to except a young man that was horse dealer, merchant or whatever his title was even that is unclear...Just because the words were not written quoted or spoken in regards to El Deree does not mean that some sort of overlapping time period for El Deree and Mashaan does not exist...  
With regard to the breeding records you mentioned; what records exactly are you speaking of? There is no information that I know of which provides the dates for when Mashaan was first used at stud. It is certainly not contained in the RAS History. It would not be a sound research process to assume an acquisition date of a stallion or even for when breeding began with a stallion, strictly from foaling dates of first recorded get. For one thing, this would not take into consideration any breeding that could have taken place for which a recorded foal was not produced.  Many mares slip or abort foals, foals die after birth and are not recorded, etc., etc., etc. The RAS had a number of stallions in their possession. In fact, in 1948 the figures were 47 Stallions (including those who were annual sent to various breeding stations) and 35 mares. I don't know if you have stallions or not, but I had 10 at one time. We made decisions on what stallions we would use during certain seasons based on a variety of reasons. If you were to conclude a date for when we acquired, or even first started using some of the stallions we owned based upon recorded foal dates of get, you would not have drawn an inaccurate conclusion. I don't know the exact circumstances of Mashaan, no one here does, we weren't there and the records are sketchy at best. But the only solid evidence we do have is Judith Forbis' written word that states that he was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.  This part that you have stated does make sense... We do own a stallion and we do look for outcross blood... But, everything you claim for Mashaan is based on a statement that doesn't come with a date. In order to refute the question of El Deree you need a date for Dr. Branch's retirement and for the acquistion of Mashaan..Otherwise, it looks as though Mashaan was lucky enough to have people campaigning for him while the same questions were never asked in regards to El Deree...Then come the question of human nature... I don't know about you but any time I have been involved with a stallion I am much more curious to see what he produces initially versus holding on to him for a few years...But nothing you have stated has made me think of Mashaan and El Dereeas anything but contemporaries at RAS... The other thing I found interesting is while looking on El Masri data base is that El Deree and Mashaan according to those records share 1/2 siblings...
As you can see from the past arguments against the inclusion of Mashaan by SOFI, the first line of fire was that it was "proven" and recorded in the RAS History that he went there after 1935, after Dr. Branch retired. That was a false statement proven by the actual quote from the RAS History book. Either Kelly and Hansi don't have the book or didn't check it, I don't know which. Apparently both were also either unaware of the information provided by Judith Forbis, or they simply don't accept it as credible. However, now that the quote from her interview has been given, the argument has shifted to discrediting the importance of Dr. Branch. A very foolish approach for many reasons, and so very easy to disprove What dates would be your best estimate for the retirement of Dr. Branch and when Mashaan arrived at the RAS... I'm sorry that I can't satisfy you with a short, simple answer without including background history. The fact is, that to understand the philosophy behind the creation of SOFI and the criteria used for root stock selection, one needs to understand the nature of the links between the 7 Foundation breeders and the era they defined. This is not something that can be summed up in a few short sentences, but can be discovered through reading many important books by many very credible authors, spanning many years. I've mentioned that the people responsible for initially selecting and approving the root stock for SOF were highly studied and far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. They understood the overview of historic factors involved, and believed that there was a very sound reason for subgrouping these horses in order to preserve and concentrate their blood within a closed genepool. I can take this statement at face value... I am not trying to call anything in to question... I just really really can't get past the fact that the dates are so close... The first foals for both stallions were born the same year... I guess I should just resign myself to Ray's explanation of the card game...Because really it makes as much sense as anything else...
I do feel badly that I am not able to be more helpful to you, but I hope that you will keep your mind open to additional information as you may come across it.  one side or the other has to eat crow or make amends...As time passes, you may It is my hope that everyone involved keep and open mind...There may come a day when one side or the other may have to live up to that standard of an open mind.

find that many little bits of information begin to come together and finally create a complete and satisfying picture. On the other hand, that may never happen and I strongly believe that no one should support or participate in any type of breeding program which doesn't make sense to them Well I kind of take exception to that statement...I don't breed SO horses.. I breed SE and Yes, I am very aware of the tradition and background of the breed... So, in that I suppose I meet the criterion to be a SE breeder...
Whatever choices we make, we have to believe in what we are doing to make it work.
Regards,
Caryn
*
Nadj al Nur
Ray, read my post again and you will see that you and I are in fact in agreement, and therefore have nothing to argue about. Hansi has cleared up who this person was. That is it .
Cathy
HLM
please see my post to Tracy. Sid abouhom was not El Dere's first foal. And indeed, Dr Banch retired in 1932 and apparently went to England. the latter I can not prove. However, on my next trip to the eAO I will try to solve more puzzles and hope it is not considered garbage.. rolleyes.gif

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Thank you Hansi,

Your dates put El Deree at RAS even earlier and consistant with 1934...As you can probably tell I am having some trouble with the dates... We have a span of dates from 1932 to 1935 that a man and three horses were at a site... The man retired and two of the three horses are considered SOF and the other just SE.. I don't know the politics, but I suspect them as being the issue in this case...But again I thank you... I think the first foal mentioned on this thread has been Sid Abouhom in 1936...


Tracy
Robert 1
QUOTE (HLM @ May 22 2007, 12:19 AM)
please see my post to Tracy. Sid abouhom was not El Dere's first foal. And indeed, Dr Banch retired in 1932 and apparently went to England. the latter I can not prove. However, on my next trip to the eAO I will try to solve more puzzles and hope it is not considered garbage.. rolleyes.gif

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*

DEAR HANSI,
YOUR INFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE GATHERED ON PAPER AND THE FIRST HAND STORIES YOU HAVE TOLD ABOUT MANY OF THE IMPORTED HORSES COMING INTO YOUR QUARANTINE HAS BEEN GREAT, AND ONE WILL SORT THIS OUT AS THEY SEE FIT AND THIS IS ALL THAT CAN BE DONE, JUST LIKE READING A GREAT BOOK, FOR EACH TO INTERPRET IN THEIR OWN WAY AND TO LEND AS MUCH TO FACTS OR FICTION AS THEY PLEASE AND I FOR ONE ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS DO THANK YOU FOR THIS. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
WITH RESPECT,
ROBERT,
ECHO HILL ARABIANS
Echo1
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ May 21 2007, 02:11 AM)
When Al Khamsa 1 came out in 1982, it listed foundation horses for the country of Egypt as  “Egypt”, “Blunt” and “Inshass”.

Jay Gormley, Edna Weeks and Julia Byfield were the founders of The Sheykh Obeyd Foundation, SOF, not to be confused with SOFI. The choice of horses for these three breeders were the Egypt/Blunt horses. They choose NOT to include any horse listed under the Al Khamsa designation of "Inshass". These horses were El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka and Nafaa.

This is very simple to understand. It does not matter when any of the Inshass horses went to the RAS, when they were bred for the first time, when they raced or whose auspices they were under.  They were not chosen for inclusion in SOF by the three founders.

I hope this answers your question.
*



Thank you Kimberli,
Al Khamsa updated the way they catalog horses, however SOFI did not.


NO INSHASS???? Really ?


The following horses came from Inshass and are included by SOFI*

Bint Bint Dalal
Bint Zareefa
El Zafir
Ibn Fayda
Rasheed
Saada
Zahra


All these horses can be found as registered with the Inshass Original Herd Book.

*Edited to add, " The following horses came from Inshass and are NOT included by SOFI
Kimberli Nelson
QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 22 2007, 02:35 AM)
Thank you Kimberli,
Al Khamsa updated the way they catalog horses, however SOFI did not.
NO INSHASS???? Really ?
The following horses came from Inshass and are included by SOFI

Bint Bint Dalal
Bint Zareefa
El Zafir
Ibn Fayda
Rasheed
Saada
Zahra
All these horses can be found as registered with the Inshass Original Herd Book.
*


The Al Khamsa foundation horses listed as INSHASS are El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka and Nafaa. These are the horses that Al Khamsa designated as INSHASS.

Many horses were owned by Kings Farouk and Faud, from the RAS and other sources.

The only horses that the original SOF founders did not included are those listed as Inshass in the AK 1 book. This had nothing to do with the overall breeding program at Inshass.
Echo1
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ May 22 2007, 02:43 AM)
The Al Khamsa foundation horses listed as INSHASS are El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka and Nafaa. These are the horses that Al Khamsa designated as INSHASS.

Many horses were owned by Kings Farouk and Faud, from the RAS and other sources.

The only horses that the original SOF founders did not included are those listed as Inshass in the AK 1 book. This had nothing to do with the overall breeding program at Inshass.
*



Correction, I should have said, NOT included by SOFI but are considered by Al Khamsa as Original Egypt I horses.

I am sure that it has nothing to do with the breeding program of Inshass , however the breeding program of Inshass is considered by Al Khamsa as being one of the main breeders of the original Egypt 1 horses.
Kimberli Nelson
Not entirely correct Kelly, all the horses you listed are descendants of Egypt (AK 1) and Egypt 1 (AK 2) and therefore SO horses although bred at Inshass.
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 21 2007, 04:58 PM)
Quote Hansi:
"Ray explained well how research, new eras can change many a conclusion of long ago. Interlects will have an open mind for it, because their intelligence would not allow them to do otherwise. Like the world is not flat, etc."

Well, this is very true. However, there has been no new information whatsoever presented about Mashaan here by either Hansi or Kelly so I don't see the relevance.

Caryn,  Correct, this is not 'new' information on Mashaan, it is just that your definition of 'under the auspices of Dr Branch", does not fit this horse.



In fact, much of the existing information which they referenced (and has been published for decades) was either reported inaccurately, partially omitted, misstated, and/or misinterpreted.

Incorrect.  I would like you to post where I misquoted, reported inaccurately, or partially omitted, misstated and /or misinterpreted.  I quoted my sources and copied it as such.  What I did was point out your misinterpreted information pertaining to Mashaan and how Dr Branch had retired before his arrival at the RAS, and let you know that Dr Branch did not make the executive decision on all horses, that was done by committee.  So you definition that you use , which you wrote' is inaccurate, partially omitting the truth, and misstated causing others to misinterpret the cataloging of horses according to their history. 


I'm sorry that those who don't have the books which contain this data are unable to verify this; I realize that for them this becomes a "she said - she said" issue, which is unfortunate.

Please know when I say I do not 'have' a book, it means that I do not have it with me while I am traveling.  But I will be sure to pull them from the shelf when I get home if you like.

However, I have given exact and complete references and, if interested, perhaps you may wish to save these. At some time there may be a way for you to gain access to this material, and if so, I believe many things will become quite clear. I feel that all that can be said pretty much has been said on this topic, and that to continue would only be viewed as argumentative -- and would be counter-productive to whatever clarity may have been achieved thus far.

You  have basically not given a direct answer though.  I hope you are able to consider this, and if you will consider the close similarities to the horses of El Deree, Nabras, Mashaan and realize that the whole 'under the auspices of Dr Branch is not what any reasonable person would consider to define a blood group of horses. 

The subject line of this thread is Mashaan. I am not going to address anything about *Exochorda here as it has been hard enough for many to follow this subject alone. I  don't want to add to the confusion by going off on another tangent, but will be glad to address it on a separate thread if that is acceptable to the site owners.

I feel everyone is able to understand what is being written, and I don't feel that people are as easily confused as you would like them to be.

I was under the impression that people have forum members have heard enough about it, and that further debate was discouraged. I understood that readers were being encouraged to use the search function to access archived threads on the subject rather than continuing to rehash.  However, since Hansi continues to bring the subject up and to harass this bloodline just about daily, perhaps I misunderstood. In the event that such a discussion is approved, I am readily available and willing to participate.

When I have time, I would like to provide more information on Dr. Branch in a separate thread for the sake of those who are interested, but don't have the research materials to confirm the extent of his influence at the RAS and his ultimate impact on the SE Arabian horse.

How did you write an entire definition based on Dr Branch's auspices if you don't have information on him?

For now, I would only say that to claim that he "has never been a person of consequence other than he was a director of the RAS" is so absurd that it is embarrassing. It is a fact that NO ONE participating in this discussion knew Branch personally, nor did they visit the RAS during his tenure there. Judith Forbis, however, has not only visited the Middle East very frequently over the past five decades, but also lived and worked there and clearly knows quite a lot about the culture and the history of the region. Her access to information on the ancestry of the Arabian horse in its origins was, and is, far-reaching. I would venture to say that she has likely spent more time there and has had more extensive and closer relationships with significant people involved with the evolution of the Egyptian Arabian horse than any living person of Western origins. Her depth of knowledge on this subject is remarkable, as anyone who has actually read her works would realize, and gratefully, she has shared it with the world. Now, Mrs. Forbis didn't personally know Branch either. She did, however, personally know and interviewed many who knew him quite well, and she has collected (and published) documentation in that regard. Apparently her opinion of the "consequence" of Dr. Branch's service to Egypt and the Arabian horse over his 35 year career there is quite contrary to Hansi's statements on the matter. Certainly no author would devote 9 pages of a very important book on the development of the Arabian horse in Egypt to a person of insignificant consequence, as Judith Forbis did in the case of Dr. Branch. I would also add that the significance of Dr. Branch is referenced in many, if not most, important literary works by many authors on the subject of Arabian horse breeding in Egypt spanning many decades.


I am happy to hear you support and endorse Judi Forbis, she in fact supports and endores El Deree and Morafic.


Caryn Rogosky
*


Would you be willing to say that your defintion of 'under the auspices of Dr Branch needs to be reconsidered based on the fact by your admission you arent' sure about Mashaan and Dr Branch now?
Echo1
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ May 22 2007, 04:00 AM)
Not entirely correct Kelly,  all the horses you listed are descendants of Egypt (AK 1) and Egypt 1 (AK 2) and therefore SO horses although bred at Inshass.
*


This is the sticky part Kimberli, if that is so, and those horses are SOFI, then you need to be aware that one is sired by El Deree.
As I said, if this is so, how can it be that SOFI endorses these horses and one is sired by El Deree who SOFI does not endorse?

Shall I continue?
Marilyn Lang
I have spent the last three hours going over all the post on this thread since my post very early this morning before leaving for Houston.

First, I would like to say I was blown away by the statement from Hansi that Dr. Branch's administrative duties at the RAS were insignificant or inconsequential, whatever term she used. How could anyone who claims to be a serious scholar and student of Egyptian Arabian horse history make such a horrible claim against a man of such great importance to the Arabian horse, in particular the Egyptian Arabian horse? A little history is in order here for those of you who are not familiar with Dr. Branch.

He was a graduate of the British Royal College of Veterinary Medicine and Surgeons. He was hired by the RAS in 1892 to oversee the new administration. He was an advisor to all the royal family on their Arabian breeding and a very close friend of HRH Prince Kemal El Dine Hussein and HRH Prince Mohammed Aly Tewfik. He cared for and took care of all the royal family's horses as well as those belonging to the RAS. Judi Forbis states in her book AAB that he was more closely connected with the breeding and developement of Arabians in Egypt than anyone of his era. Judy also states in her article on Dr. Branch that "he was much respected, was totally dedicated and his word was vertually law."

When Henry B. Babson went to Egypt in 1932 to find his ideal Arabian horse, it was Dr. Branch with whom he met and Dr. Branch who assisted him in his eventual purchase of all the important Babson imports. Dr. Branch was able to help him in the acquisition of *Bint Serra from Prince Kemal El Dine that he other wise probably would not have been able to purchase. As a result of Dr. Branch's intervention, some of us are fortunate enough to have horses with the *Bint Serra blood. All straight Egyptian breeders in the US should be grateful for this man of supreme foresight and breeding knowledge. Who knows what very important breedings he suggested and were initiated? If you have not read the bio on Dr. Branch in Judi's book, then you must do so even if you have to borrow the book or go to the library at the PS office and make a copy. I promise you will not be disappointed. Oh, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that period of time. Better yet, Lady Anne Blunt's assistant. Most of the historical info in my post is taken from AAB. We all owe a debt of gratitude to Judi Forbis for spending over half her life collecting, sorting and sharing all of her information.

I personally find this very painful that a person with such a mean spirit would denouce someone of such great importantance to Egyptian horses as Dr. Branch. Then again, what would you expect from someone who would run a full page ad in AHW declaring that all of their horses would be put down if not sold by a certain date.? I was shocked when I read that ad but even more shocked at her critical remarks concerning Dr. Branch. And I am not easily shocked.

Actually, this is all very depressing to me. I have spent the last 25 years of my life devoted to the Arabian horse and do not understand why there are those who feel the need to hurt others and their breeding programs. I am sorry but I find Ms. Hansi Heck Melnyck's ethics extremely questionable. Actually, I did a long time ago.

SOFI has a root stock list that I find to be completely satisfactory. I do not ask approval nor do I ask that anyone conform to my breeding program or anyone's breeding program for that matter. There is not doubt in my mind that *Exochorda is Asil, straight Egyptian, Al Khamsa and SO. God bless *Exochorda.

Respectfully,
Marilyn Lang
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 21 2007, 06:36 PM)
Quote Tracy:
"...why isn't Sid Abouhom considered a foundation horse as he was born at the RAS during the time of Dr. Branch's tenure and was used as a breeding stallion at RAS..."

I'm sorry Tracy, I missed this before. To answer your question, Sid Abouhom was not born at the RAS during Dr. Branch's tenure.
Caryn
*



Nor were Mashaan's foals. Nor were Nabras' foals. Yet they are foundation horses.
Kimberli Nelson
My mistake Kelly, maybe this will be clear for all those who do not understand.

If the horse is Straight Egyptian but the pedigree contains El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka or Nafaa (all Inshass foundation horses according to Al Khamsa) do not qualify as SO horses regardless of who bred the horse.
Kimberli Nelson
Kelly what part of the foundation horses are Al Khamsa designated Egypt and Blunt foundation horses don't you understand?
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 21 2007, 09:36 PM)
Quote Tracy:
"This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag..."

Tracy, it is not correct that El Dere was a the RAS before Mashaan. If you or anyone else has some information that shows that Dr. Branch was at the RAS was El Dere was gifted, I would be be very interested to look at it. 

Perhaps you miss Tracy's point.  Which is how can Mashaan be qualifed by Dr Branch and El Deree not qualifed, if El Deree went to the RAS before Mashaan? Mashaan went in 1935, El Deree went in 1934


But nothing, in all of the books or records that I have reviewed over almost twenty years has even suggested such a link.

Al Khamsa II,  Page 74 for Mashaan, Page 57 for El Deree


With regard to the breeding records you mentioned; what records exactly are you speaking of? There is no information that I know of which provides the dates for when Mashaan was first used at stud.

Perhaps the birth dates of his foals


It is certainly not contained in the RAS History.

I believe it was you who posted this earlier in this thread, giving all of Mashaan's foals and birthday's taken from the RAS History

It would not be a sound research process to assume an acquisition date of a stallion or even for when breeding began with a stallion, strictly from foaling dates of first recorded get.

I am so glad you said this yourself.  IT would not be accurate to assume whem a horse is acquired.....or for that matter 'introduced into the genetic stream under the auspices of Dr Branch'


For one thing, this would not take into consideration any breeding that could have taken place for which a recorded foal was not produced.  Many mares slip or abort foals, foals die after birth and are not recorded, etc., etc., etc.

Are we stretching things here a little

The RAS had a number of stallions in their possession. In fact, in 1948 the figures were 47 Stallions (including those who were annual sent to various breeding stations) and 35 mares. I don't know if you have stallions or not, but I had 10 at one time. We made decisions on what stallions we would use during certain seasons based on a variety of reasons. If you were to conclude a date for when we acquired, or even first started using some of the stallions we owned based upon recorded foal dates of get, you would not have drawn an inaccurate conclusion. I don't know the exact circumstances of Mashaan, no one here does, we weren't there and the records are sketchy at best.

Sketchy?  We do have information on this stallion which is in Al Khamsa for one, and if he is sketchy than how do you view El Deree now?

But the only solid evidence we do have is Judith Forbis' written word that states that he was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.

As you can see from the past arguments against the inclusion of Mashaan by SOFI, the first line of fire was that it was "proven" and recorded in the RAS History that he went there after 1935, after Dr. Branch retired. That was a false statement proven by the actual quote from the RAS History book. Either Kelly and Hansi don't have the book or didn't check it, I don't know which. Apparently both were also either unaware of the information provided by Judith Forbis, or they simply don't accept it as credible. However, now that the quote from her interview has been given, the argument has shifted to discrediting the importance of Dr. Branch. A very foolish approach for many reasons, and so very easy to disprove.

No , I believe I asked you if this was in reference to him being approved for RACING ? 

I'm sorry that I can't satisfy you with a short, simple answer without including background history. The fact is, that to understand the philosophy behind the creation of SOFI and the criteria used for root stock selection, one needs to understand the nature of the links between the 7 Foundation breeders and the era they defined. This is not something that can be summed up in a few short sentences, but can be discovered through reading many important books by many very credible authors, spanning many years. I've mentioned that the people responsible for initially selecting and approving the root stock for SOF were highly studied and far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. They understood the overview of historic factors involved, and believed that there was a very sound reason for subgrouping these horses in order to preserve and concentrate their blood within a closed genepool.

We seem to understand SE okay.  Why would this be different ?

I do feel badly that I am not able to be more helpful to you, but I hope that you will keep your mind open to additional information as you may come across it.

I hope you can keep your mind open to additional information as it becomes available too.

As time passes, you may find that many little bits of information begin to come together and finally create a complete and satisfying picture.

As in El Deree?

On the other hand, that may never happen and I strongly believe that no one should support or participate in any type of breeding program which doesn't make sense to them.

Well said

Whatever choices we make, we have to believe in what we are doing to make it work.
Regards,
Caryn
*
Marilyn Lang
Yes Kelly, please do enlighten us all to your research which you freely admit is without much historical documentation. Know you are not a fan of Judi Forbis or her books but if one is to be considered a scholar, one must contain all documentation regarding the subject matter within their library or at the very least, have access.

Marilyn
Caryn Rogosky
I've given all of the information I currently have knowledge of concerning Mashaan. If I acquire anything further, I'll most certainly share this with the forum. I've stated what I believe to be true as a result of study and significant cross referencing crucial literature by various authors. I do not think that referencing one's own data, or referencing a contemporary database (even if is a very fine one) is any substitute for consulting a broad spectrum of sources and tracing it all back to an original source. Therein lies he key.

I do believe that the information given by Judith Forbis which states in no uncertain terms that Mashaan was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch to be true and accurate. You either accept it or you don't...I do. I do not believe that El Dere was acquired by Dr. Branch, I believe that he was gifted to the RAS by King Foaud after the retirement of Dr. Branch. Unlike the written word of Judith Forbis, or the written word of the man who owned Mashaan, there is no evidence that El Dere had any connection with Dr. Branch at the RAS. Anyway, that's what I believe -- and others are welcomed to their beliefs. It is not for me to try to change them.

I have decided to go on being kind to myself indefinitely, so I will not be reading Kelly's posts, which I'm sure she won't mind. Someone who has claimed that I've spent 20 years spouting "hogwash" surely has no use for answers from me.
Caryn Rogosky
Echo1
QUOTE (Marilyn Lang @ May 22 2007, 05:32 AM)
Yes Kelly, please do enlighten us all to your research which you freely admit is without much historical documentation.  Know you are not a fan of Judi Forbis or her books but if one is to be considered a scholar, one must contain all documentation regarding the subject matter within their library or at the very least, have access. 

Marilyn
*


Dear Marilyn,
Yes, I do have her books, I respect her and know that for a fact she does support El Deree. I do know Judi Forbis and I am a fan of hers. As well as her breeding program and yes I do have all of her books.
IS she a member of your group? If not, then I suggest you stand on your own two feet and not hers.
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 22 2007, 06:32 AM)
I've given all of the information I currently have knowledge of concerning Mashaan. If I acquire anything further, I'll most certainly share this with the forum. I've stated what I believe to be true as a result of study and significant cross referencing crucial literature by various authors. I do not think that referencing one's own data, or referencing a contemporary database (even if is a very fine one)  is any substitute for consulting a broad spectrum of sources and tracing it all back to an original source. Therein lies he key.

And therein sits Al Khamsa who cross references and documents from over 178 books, manuscripts, hujjays, and other crucial pieces of information pertaining to the history if the Arabian horse.

I  do believe that the information given by Judith Forbis which states in no uncertain terms that Mashaan was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch to be true and accurate.

If so, be it known that El Deree went to the RAS before Mashaan.  El Deree was also approved for racing in the purebred section by the committee.  The same committee that approved Mashaan for the race track.


You either accept it or you don't...I do. I do not believe that El Dere was acquired by Dr. Branch, I believe that he was gifted to the RAS by King Foaud after the retirement of Dr. Branch.

Simply, Mashaan did not go to the RAS until AFTER his race career, this is documented. His Race career ended in 1935 after the retirement of Dr Branch which you state was about 1932, this you have documented.  Yes he was gifted to the RAS  by Inshass, as many of their horses were used for breeding at the RAS. However, we have more information on this stallion now, in regards to where he came from "El Jibour " as did Mashaan also  come from "El Jibour"  Not to mention, 7 horses of which Al Khamsa states is considered to be Egypt I designated horses which are coming from the Inshass .  Also, the SOFI mare Badaouia was presented to Major Thompon.

Unlike the written word of Judith Forbis, or the written word of the man who owned Mashaan, there is no evidence that El Dere had any connection with Dr. Branch at the RAS. Anyway, that's what I believe -- and others are welcomed to their beliefs. It is not for me to try to change them.

Incorrect, he was approved for RACING on the track in Egypt, under the purebred section by the Race Committee which Dr Branch was the president.

I have decided to go on being kind to myself indefinitely, so I will not be reading Kelly's posts, which I'm sure she won't mind. Someone who has claimed that I've spent 20 years spouting "hogwash" surely has no use for answers from me.
Caryn Rogosky
*
HLM
Marylin

This is how confusions start, when one misconstrues words. I said " Consequences" no more and that means there is nothing on record Dr Branch did extra-ordinarily, and no more or less than any other appointed director.

Do you feel the other directors,by enlarge Veterinarians too, had no education and just came out of public school to become a director or picked from the streets? Why straying away from facts and try anything to confuse or mislead?

did it ever occur to you and your friends that also in Judi's publications errors can be found? Have you verified each word, each part of such? Judi was not exactly that much appreciated at the eAO during certain times, I know off. But then those are personal clashes. I think they were offended when their gift to her of Ibn Halima was turned into -it was a purchase-!. I dont wont to go into any further details of this, because you andyour friends were never at the EAO I gather,
and therefore would have no way of knowing what is what. I also dont believe that any author's works, including Judi's, is "the bible".

However, all this is inmaterial, material is that when you speak of research and collecting many materials, then it is also a matter of your and your friends intrepetation. Possibly not familiar at all with the cultures of the Arabian people, you could be WAY OFF!.Assumptions simply dont count.

(O by the way I forgot to mention that when our deligation a few years back went to Syria, they had the original Davenport Imports "authenticated" again by the tribe.)

It appears to me that your theory and that of your friends contains a lot of assumptions and as a clutch using Judi's work only. that is not very wise in my opinion.

So let us conclude that Dr Branch was no different than any other director in his
authoritiy, in his handling matters, and when someone is there for many years it stands to reason a good job was done. To put him on a pedistell in order to prove an so far unproven subject, is really not research in my oinion, but a personal matter to justify certain claims.

I really recommend you take the next plane and go and visit the eAO. They might even let you see their records, who knows. At the same time you might want to visit the Jockey clubs in cairo,Alexandria and Beyruth and familiarize yourself with what really is going on, their system, their records, and may be even take part in
watching the "Horse committee" at work which would include deciding which horses run in the Asil or Non Asil classes.You might also want to ascertain what each director of the rAS/EAO has accomplished, who they were and if indeed they had an "education".

Until your return , have a nice day

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms







.
Robert 1
QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 22 2007, 12:56 PM)
Dear Marilyn,
Yes, I do have her books,  I respect her and know that for a fact she does support El Deree. I do know Judi Forbis and I am a fan of hers.  As well as her breeding program and yes I do have all of her books. 
IS she a member of your group?  If not, then I suggest you stand on your own two feet and not hers.
*


Dear Marilyn,
We have and treasure every book Judi Forbis wrote regarding the Arabian Horse, perhaps you should choose someone else for your group to make reference to.
Sorry for the interuption now back to Kelly, Caryn, and Hansi. wink.gif
beavercreek
interesting discussion.

I have an old but wonderful El Deree stallion and if they are all like him, I know why its an important SE line. I added his photo and pedigree to the photo and pedigree site. Incredible temperament, desert type - short backed, fine boned, huge eye and nostril, short broad head, tail like a flag. at over 20 years I left him with a stable down the road to condition and they would put him on a walker - they finally called and asked me if I was lying about his age because they had gotten up to two hours and he just never got tired! he has given me 3 wonderful fillies and now a colt who looks like him reincarnated. they can all trot forever and yet are extremely smart. not although they have lovely heads they are not the modern exotic head (an unfortunate comment I heard about the extreme heads now so popular was made at the recent Breeders conference in Atlanta was that they look like someone had smashed their faces in and they were sure they could no longer breath properly - don't know, don't want THAT extreme a dish...). anyway just wanted to share that pure El Deree stallions (I think there are a few others still out there) are still around and contributing to the gene pool (although my babies are not pure El Deree).
idan atiq
Beautiful bay stallion.
What is his pedigree, please.
Thanks,
Tzviah
QUOTE (beavercreek @ Sep 26 2010, 05:18 PM) *
interesting discussion.

I have an old but wonderful El Deree stallion and if they are all like him, I know why its an important SE line. I added his photo and pedigree to the photo and pedigree site. Incredible temperament, desert type - short backed, fine boned, huge eye and nostril, short broad head, tail like a flag. at over 20 years I left him with a stable down the road to condition and they would put him on a walker - they finally called and asked me if I was lying about his age because they had gotten up to two hours and he just never got tired! he has given me 3 wonderful fillies and now a colt who looks like him reincarnated. they can all trot forever and yet are extremely smart. not although they have lovely heads they are not the modern exotic head (an unfortunate comment I heard about the extreme heads now so popular was made at the recent Breeders conference in Atlanta was that they look like someone had smashed their faces in and they were sure they could no longer breath properly - don't know, don't want THAT extreme a dish...). anyway just wanted to share that pure El Deree stallions (I think there are a few others still out there) are still around and contributing to the gene pool (although my babies are not pure El Deree).

Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
That stallion is Ramses Boomerang...Very nice Heirloom El-Deree Stallion... He needs to have a date with my Heirloom El-Deree Mare Bint Ishtar... tracy
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ May 18 2007, 09:36 PM) *
Hello,

I must say folks, that to an SE newbie like me, this is pure hell to sort out!! I don't think I have anything important to add in regard to the records, the rules and the application thereof. Which is why I am a newbie.

However, after slogging through the sarcasm and rude behavior, I think I will withhold judgment on trying to make a decision on anything SE.

I very much appreciated Kelly's calm, logical, point-by-point attempt to clarify things. And I'm left with one question as follows:

Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? blink.gif

Confused out here in little-person land,
Ray


Remembering when . . . and missing THAT Kelly.
2mntn
QUOTE (Dieter @ Feb 13 2012, 08:35 AM) *
Remembering when . . . and missing THAT Kelly.



laugh.gif Nearly 5 years have passed since I made that last post. That's enough time to go through a 4-year university, plus another year for a Masters. Almost enough time for three tours in 'Nam, or wherever, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I think I've learned quite a bit about SE's, and Arabian horses, in general - perhaps enough to knock some of the newby off of me. Some of what I've learned has more to do with the owners of Arabian horses than the horses themselves. wink.gif
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 13 2012, 11:21 AM) *
laugh.gif Nearly 5 years have passed since I made that last post. That's enough time to go through a 4-year university, plus another year for a Masters. Almost enough time for three tours in 'Nam, or wherever, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I think I've learned quite a bit about SE's, and Arabian horses, in general - perhaps enough to knock some of the newby off of me. Some of what I've learned has more to do with the owners of Arabian horses than the horses themselves. wink.gif
biggrin.gif Reading through this Mashaan thread, the theme is the same as in the Exo thread. Seriously makes me laugh out loud. The knowledge you've gained regarding these topics far exceeds my own (lack of interest) . . . one of these days I may have to refer to you as Doctor Ray wink.gif Just think, in another 5 years, this discussion will continue and it's doubtful much will change unless new science findings force a change . . . even then some will continue to hold fast to their rationale.

I was looking for the post where someone stated Mrs. Ott took a shotgun out to the field and . . . do you remember that?
2mntn
Well, I read through this whole topic again and, with a new perspective gained over a few more years, I have a couple of comments to make. First, with regard to the origins of Mashaan and El Deree. It is noted that they were both from the same tribe and should therefore be considered as "equals". As we know, every horse is an individual who produces differently from every other horse. Therefore, a decision to include one and exclude the other can make sense. As far as the nuance of having had Dr. Branch in control of the selection process and therefore contributing some measure of added value, I would say that this aspect is obviously subjective and not worth wasting time in arguing the point. That said, if Branch was in England judging horse shows in 1935, then he wouldn't have been in Egypt, making breeding selections. Sounds like it would have been Dr. Ahmed Mabrouk, with able assistant Dr. Ameen Zaher, who were "in charge" from the mid-1930's until 1941 - according to Forbis in "The Classic Arabian Horse".
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 17 2012, 01:52 AM) *
Well, I read through this whole topic again and, with a new perspective gained over a few more years, I have a couple of comments to make. First, with regard to the origins of Mashaan and El Deree. It is noted that they were both from the same tribe and should therefore be considered as "equals". As we know, every horse is an individual who produces differently from every other horse. Therefore, a decision to include one and exclude the other can make sense. As far as the nuance of having had Dr. Branch in control of the selection process and therefore contributing some measure of added value, I would say that this aspect is obviously subjective and not worth wasting time in arguing the point. That said, if Branch was in England judging horse shows in 1935, then he wouldn't have been in Egypt, making breeding selections. Sounds like it would have been Dr. Ahmed Mabrouk, with able assistant Dr. Ameen Zaher, who were "in charge" from the mid-1930's until 1941 - according to Forbis in "The Classic Arabian Horse".



Well Ray, you are not alone, I have been struggling with this for many years. What I always wanted to know is, how
Mrs Ott arrived at the Blue Star definition for certain hores, when there is no contious pedigree on their parents. Was it Raswan who told her that there is no Mu'niqi Blood in them, or how did it work?
Raswan declared the two lins Harruj and Sbeili "Asils". Most studbooks from the ME/Regions/Persia do show many Mu'niqi lines and so many extra strains I never heard of. Just look at the Turkish Stud Book.
Or the Iranies,Iraquis, etc. While this really mattered to me when it comes to the breeding shed, it still neds an answer for me,
El Deree produced 26 daughters and 17 sons, Mashaan 4 daughters and 7 sons,. I guess leaving El Deree out, the
SOFI numbers were kept in check. At least Walter Schimanski had this explanation for me years ago.

More and more many realize that the "label" system isolated many lines, so badly needed for some. So what does this tell us, can we learn from it?
If some of these horses would have excellend under saddle, race track, endurance, 3-day eventing, etc,etc,
one could understand better. But this has not happened, or? I noticed that during the past decades it was the "Label" which was promoted, never mind the horse, with of course some exceptions. Dollar Bills were bred, and only a few good horses, this up todate in my opinion.

Now, if we look at the "Davenports", "the Doyles" we can see todate excellent specimen holding their own in Stress performances, and they dont even carry a "Label" imagine!.I have seen some truly outstanding ones. And look at the Spanish horses, not only very beautful, but very functional, and not even "Asil"/

Just about every equine breed has great performers in their pedigree and people look for it, and breed accordingly.
these folks want to produce a "doing Horse" and many have. Some of these horses are still marketed for fortunes (see the French) and are horses we have to compete against. Do the "Preservers" ever think of this, look at it?

In the meantime the desert countries continue to produce excellent "doing horses" horses which are hard to defeat.
We saw some of these in Qatar,, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc. some not even considered Asil, but par excellent horse flesh in my opinion.

Now, what will our children do, our younger generation, ride a "Label" and left behind? Has anybody ever seen the Horses in Oman and the hundreds of young children educated in horsemenship and riding? does anybody look at the Qhorses and see how 5year olds pole bend right here at home ? So what's wrong with the Arabian Horses, many of them?
Or is it OUR PEOPLE, who degenerate the horses, when it might take 5 generation to bring all back, if this is possible?

Fortunately there are still some of our smaller breeders out there, breeding for producing "doing Arabians". These people should be saluted and respected for their sacrifices and hard work.

May be the time has come when the sunglasses have to come off, and reality faced.

All take care
Hansi



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