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Caryn Rogosky
Quote Hansi,
"Dear Kelly and all
May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.'


There is no confusion on my part. However, that is probably because I have the books in my posession from which I quote and reference in my statements, and I consult them carefully before doing so. Despite all of the accusations that have been hurled at me, every bit of information that I have provided has been accurate and backed up with specific references.

I provided all of the data on the six Mashaan foals born from 1936 . Kelly mentioned none of these foals, but repeatedly named only one foal, stating multiple times that it was born in 1938,and adding that from 1932 to 1938 is a "very long pregnancy'. Now, what exactly would the intended implication of that statement be?

I cannot say with certainty what year Mashaan "started breeding" at the RAS, and neither can you because this specific information is not recorded and not available to my knowledge.

Quote Hansi":
"Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy."


???? Pardon? This book is and has been known as the RAS History since it was published in 1948. It is referred to as such in all major research materials and is cross referenced as same by such organizations as Al Khamsa. It was later adopted by the EAO and incorporated into the official general Studbook as Volume I, but was not initially meant to serve as an official general studbook. From the RAS History, Introduction, Quote H.E. Fouad Pasha Abasza, Member of Governing Body, Director-General, (1948) :
"The value of this book lies in the fact that [B]an official genral Stud-book of Arab horses in Egypt does not exist yet, and until such a book is formed, the Royal Agricultal Society's Stud-book will remain unique." [/b]

Caryn Rogosky
Echo1
JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."


QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage  have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?
*



From the El Deree thread. May 14.
Echo1
QUOTE (Inchallah Arabians @ May 19 2007, 11:53 PM)
Really?? Maybe I misunderstood you but you stated that : "I dont think it is fair to give you documents etc, when it took me years and  fortunes to aquire them"
Please don't tell me you wish to share data with researchers when you refuse a couple of days ago to provide me with some copies... I am still hoping you will do so some day. You will have no problem to find my mailing adress I think.

Regards,
Amelie
*



Hi Amelie,

I have a copy of the Hujjay on El Deree, and it's trasnslation if you would like from me to send it to you. you are also welcome to whatever information I have on the horses. I hope to meet you at Salon and I'll remember to make copies for you and either bring them or mail them to you before then.

Have a great day. Best wishes.
HLM
Dear Kimberly

May I come back to the entries of Al Khamsa. As you know I have great respect for the work they have done and are doing, but we do need to remember that also they have made errors. I dont believe any of their researchers have ever been at the EAO and information released by them concerning the rAs/EAO is basically based on hearsay.

The subject is Dr Branch in this regard, and neither one of us, including Judi Forbis ever met the man. He died before even Judi got to the Middle East I think.

Those of us who had close contact with the eAO and their Directors have been made aware of their functions and authorities.Each one had certain authorities only, but none extended to the aquisition or leasing of breeding stock. Such was left to the "Horse Committee" and still is. Of course supervision was part of their job.

In 1973 I spent every afternoon for three weeks with sayyed Marei, Albadeia stud, while during the mornings with the eAO and at dinner with numerous officials and renowned parties. He also educated me in numerous matters of what the RAS/EAO stood for, while he tried to learn from me what actually "Blue List,etc" stands for and means. He, as most Middle East breeders never heard of it before.
Sayyed Marei was influencial with the EAO, being the Secretary General for the Socialistic party at that time. He indeed saved many valuable bloodlines from the eAO when the Government toppled and Nasser took over. Not once did I hear him talk of Dr Branch either. Matter of fact each time another Director took over, such assumed full authority not letting earlier ones intervene. I feel certain That Dr Nasr and Gulson Sherif as well as Fatma Hamza can give even more comments.

I had friendship with Dr Marsafi and other directors and also they taught me a great deal. It was he who gave me what is considered "Volume !" of their stud book
I referred to earlier. It was not referred to as "History of the RAS" as such- not then, not now to the best of my re-collection. This publication has the heading of " The Royal Agricultural Society" under the Distinguished Patronage OF HIS MAJESTY THE KING FAROUK I" -founded in 1898.- plus the details I already provided for in my earlier post. In it are details which could be quickly misintepreted by those unfamiliar with the Arab cultures or their translation into english. I believe Judi Forbis declined accepting many of the first pages out of her consideration for the SE definition. Checking with her would be the thing to do for those interested why she felt it was necessary..

I maintain, that hearsay is one thing, going to the source and ascertaining data another. Many a new thing have now also been discovered through the Syria
venture (WAHO) possibly one of the most educating experiences ever, at least for me.

all have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 20 2007, 06:48 AM)
Facts On Mashaan:

There are numerous research sources available for information on Michaan. Amongst them are:
AK1 and AKII

Yes , which Al Khamsa 11 gives the date of 1935 for Mashaan going to the RAS

Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (original volume), three sections:
1.Article from 1970 titled, "Two Sheikh's And a Pasha" Page 127. This iinlcudes a personal interview by Judith Forbis with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who brought Mashaan to Egypt, trained him, raced him, and leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.

WHERE does it say , 'please quote' that the horse was leased to the RAS under the auspices of Dr Branch on page 127.

2. Judith Foris and Gusun Sherif 1968 Interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek. Page 134, referenced by Al Khamsa.


Actually on page 57 of Al Khamsa II, it states under the heading of El Deree " On page 134, {Referring to Authentic Arabian Bloodstock} , Sheikh Abdul-Aziz El-Sabek, a Dawasir living in Egypt, is quoted on 9/25/1968 as saying that El Deree was from Hussein El Dere from the 'El Jibur' tribe in what is present-day Syria.


3. Jockey Club records at back of book for Mashaan

RAS HISTORY, published in 1948.

Of these three major resources, only one offers personal and first hand accounts of the circumstances surrounding the horse, and that is Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. That personal and first hand information was from the man who owned Mashaan, brought him to Egypt, trained him, raced him and leased him to the RAS. There are two articles, two different pages.



From the article on page 127 (see details above), the exact quote from Judith Forbis: 
""Regardless, the Sheykh purchased him, and though weak from neglect the horse improved with good care, and under Sheykh Abdul Aziz's training won his first race by ten lengths-- among other races. When he retired MASHANN from the track, twelve wins to his credit, the Royal agricultural Society -- then managed by Dr. Branch -- leased the horse for a time and used him at stud. Later MAASHAN was given to Prince Faysal of Saudi Arabia as a gift from the Sheykh."



[B]So are we correct then to think tht when Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935 Dr Branch was still there?  Are to to also think then Dr Branch approved El Deree as well, since El Deree went to the RAS in 1934?


From the second article, Page 134[/b] of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, taken from an interivew of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, conducted by Judith Forbis and Gusun  Sherif. Quote Sheikh Abdul Aziz himself: "Michaan was in weak condition when I bought him, but after training he won his first race by 10 lengths. When he finished his racing career I leased him to the Royal  Agricultural Society. Eventually my brother took Michaan back from Society and gave him to Prince Feisul of Saudi Arabia. Mischann was the purest of the pure"

Both Mishaan and El Deree are from the "El Jibour' tribe.

No date is given in either of these interviews with Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who obviously had a clear recollection of the details surround his involvement with this horse, for the year that Mashaan was leased to the RAS.  What is given is a very distinct detail, and that is that the Sheikh leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch. It's right there in black and white. One would think that the owner of the horse would have had direct communications with the man who was in charge of aquiring stallions for the RAS...and there would be absolutely no reason to think that the Sheikh would say that it was Dr. Branch if it was not Dr. Branch.

Again, if Mashaan and Dr Branch were both at the RAS at the same time, it would be important for you to note that Mishaan and El Deree were at the RAS at the SAME TIME

Al Khamsa I, page 75: "MASHAAN: The tribal information is from an article in the February, 1970, Arabian Horse World, "Two Sheikhs and a Pasha," by Judith Forbis, quoting Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Fawzan El Sabk. The article adds that Mashaan was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabian." (This article is the same one which appears in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock page 134.)
Note that no date is given here for when Mashaan went to the RAS.



Al Khamsa II, page 74: "MASHAAN: a ca. 1925 bay Kuhaylan-Ajuz stallion imported prior to 1928 to Egypt, where he was owned by Sheikh FawzanEl Sabek of Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. Aslo spelled Michaan. Notes: The above information  is from the RAS History p. 29"
(Note that there is no reference to a date given in the RAS History here).
"An interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Farwzan El Sabek, (Saudi Arabian minister to Cairo) as published in Judith Forbis Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, p. 134 says that he (Sheikh Abdul Aziz) had purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt. He further is quoted as saying that Mashaan was from the El Jibur tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire.

As was El Deree...see hujjay from El Deree thread, also note Al Khamsa II page 57 under the heading El Deree that El Deree is f rom El Jibour tribe

Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS afer his racing career and was terturned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia. Enty # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to he RAS."

Note again that Al Khamsa does not say that Judith Forbis gives the date of 1935, nor do they say that the RAS gives the date as 1935.

Al Khamsa II states in page 74 under the heading Mashaan (RAS)  in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been CORRECT for the time Mashaan went to the RAS

Carl Raswan's Index, page 419 States : Mashaan, a Kuhaylan-'Ajuz stallion (about 1935) from the racing stable of Shaykh Fauzan AsSaek, Minister of Sa'udi Arabia in Cairo, Egypt. . Al Khamsa is stating the date was given by Raswan, and does match the RAS History and Al Khamsa II states this would have been correct. 



They say that the Raswan Index shows the date as circa 1935. , which is an indefinite  date. I do not have the Carl Raswan Index to check his entry

It means 'on or about' which means on that year or about that year. It doesn't mean being off by 6 years or that long.  He did not go the the RAS until he retired from RACING.  His last race was in 1935 according to Jockey Club Egypt, Records..  His first foals were born in 1936. Raswan states he went in (about 1935), Al Khamsa II states according to all this info, the date of (1935) would have been correct.



Obviously to all, the term "circa" is universally used to indicate and understood to mean an approximate date. Quote Al Khamsa I, on page 62  I, under FOUNDATION HORSES:
"Circa dates should not be considerd exact in any way; they are merely a guide"

Correct, a circa date gives an estimate.  However, when the Al Khamsa 'adds to this that the circa date' would be correct' I think they are saying that 'although' Raswan gives an estimate' his estimate is correct.

The RAS History book P.29;
"Michaan, a oheilan Ajouz, belonging to H.E. Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek, former Minister of Saudi Arabia; it won 12 races." That's it. No date whatsoever given.



SOFI gives the date of Dr. Branch's retirement as "around 1932", it is not specifically stated as such. The exact date of Dr. Branch's retirement is unknown as of now. We do know that he facilitated the Babson importation in 1932, we also know that he was there and in charge when Jack Humphrey wrote the letter to W.R. Brown in 1932.


Yes your website does state that Dr Branch Retired AROUND 1932,  But guess what it also states?

Fouad made a tremendous contribution to the preservation of Asil Arabian horses when he donated his desert-bred stallion, El Dere, to the RAS/EAO in 1934.

Now, what say you?  


I have also come across this letter (portion of a letter)r, published in the article, ARABIAN BLOOD FOR STAMINA, Keene Richards' Own Account of His Two Desert Expeditions and His Arabian Importations.Edited by Thornton Chard:

  "------amongst the Bedouin Arabs 15 hands is the normal maximum for the pure-bred. Anything over that is a phenomenal posability. The valuable and useful horse is normally 14.3. I stress that and ------------any horse exceeding 15 hands can only be found in conditions inconsistent with Bedouin life." From a letter December 20, 1933 to T.C. from Dr. A.E.Branch, Senior member of the Egyptian Jockey Club and late President of the Classification Committee."

Great. El Deree was on the track, from 1924-1927, during the 'auspices' of Dr Branch. Senior Member of the Egyptian Jockey Club. and late President of the Classification Committee


Reference, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates...KROwnAcnt2.html
I do not know whether the letter was written during Dr. Branch's tenure or shortly after retirement. One can only make a best guess..It would appear to me that this was possibly just prior to his retirement, as he is referred to as the Senior Member of the Jockey Club (present) as well as "late" President of the Clasification Committee.

I have also found information which places Dr. Branch back in England as of March, 1935, as he is listed as one of the judges in an Arabian  horse show which ws held in London.
  Reference: The Journal Of The Arab Horse Society, 1935-1938, page 223.

Based on what I gather at this point, the window of time for when Dr. Branch retired from the RAS would have been after the Babson imports in 1932, after the Jack Humphrey letter in 1932, and before he is recorded as being in London in March of 1935. He may still have been there for part of 1933, when he wrote the letterto "T.C."

Well, he was in London in March of 1935, and Mishaan was racing on the track in 1935, and did not go to the RAS until AFTER he finished racing.

Readers are encouraged to please verify the information and references I have provided, and to draw their own conclusions.

SOFI accepts that Maashan was aquired by the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch, and is a qualified root horse based on its criteria for inclusion.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Caryn Rogosky
*



The facts as you present them are interesting. However, you should take the time now to look at El Deree and Nabras as well. I will follow up with a post on facts in chronological order.
Echo1
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 20 2007, 07:04 AM)
Quote Hansi,
"Dear Kelly and all
May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.'


There is no confusion on my part. However, that is probably because I have the books in my posession from which I quote and reference in my statements, and I consult them carefully before doing so. Despite all of the accusations that have been hurled at me, every bit of information that I have provided has been accurate and backed up with specific references.

I  provided all of the data on the six Mashaan foals born from 1936 . Kelly mentioned none of these foals, but repeatedly named only one foal, stating multiple times that it was born in 1938,and adding that from 1932 to 1938 is a "very long pregnancy'. Now, what exactly would  the intended implication of that statement be?


I didn't need to mention them all, because quite simply, they are ALL after he retired from the track. The intened gist of this is that...Dr Branch (according to you) left the RAS before Mishaans foals were documented with birthdates from the RAS.

I cannot say with certainty what year Mashaan "started breeding" at the RAS, and neither can you because this specific information is not recorded and not available to my knowledge.

WHAT?  YOU listed all his foals and gave specific birthdates. Are you calling yourself to question? 
ALL his foals that YOU listed and YOU  gave specific birthdates, all of which YOU provided for us here on this forum, All of which I might add were after 1935 when he left the track.  All of which was after Dr Branch left the RAS according to your website under FACTS on SOFI.  I am pointing out the inconsistancies in your "under the auspices of Dr Branch' theory of including/excluding horses. Basically it looks to me as if you excluded EL Deree INCORRECTLY based on how you included such as Mashaan and Nabras.


Quote Hansi":
[i]"Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy."[

???? This book is and  has been known as the RAS History since it was published in 1948. It is referred to as such in all major research materials and is cross referenced as same by such organizations as Al Khamsa. It was later adopted by the EAO and incorporated into the official general Studbook as Volume I,  but was not initially meant to serve as an official general studbook. From the RAS History, Introduction, Quote H.E. Fouad Pasha Abasza, Member of Governing Body, Director-General, (1948) :
"The value of this book lies in the fact that [B]an official genral Stud-book of Arab horses in Egypt does not exist yet, and until such a book is formed, the Royal Agricultal Society's Stud-book will remain unique." [/b]


Caryn Rogosky
*
Abbasiyah
QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 01:06 AM)
Dear Kelly and all

May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.

Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy.

Nowhere is Dr Branch mentioned, but  Dr Ahmed Mabrouk is, former head of the Breeding section of the RAS, was delegated by their commission to study breeding methods in the Hedjaz, Nedj, Iraq and Syria. As was then as it is today that a commission of the (RAS) now EAO DECIDES WHAT TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH, WHICH THEN IS VOTED ON AND PRESENTED TO THE dIRECTOR of such animal section. It has up to date never been the authority of a "Director" ONLY.  This :Horse Commission" was created for the Government of egypt in 1892 under the presidency of the late Price Omar Toussoun and is in existance today and full force todate..

.Dr Branch is consistently brought up by a poster and given authority by such he never had, nor did any director in the same position. DR Branch's name is actually mentioned nowhere I can find in books published or authered in Egypt. If there is one,  please let me know, I like to buy a copy. That does not mean in any way,shape or form that Dr Branch did not do a good job. However, it stated nowhere that he actually selected breeding stock  for the RAs. That would not have been his job anyway. He was to inspect livestock-horses- give his attention to treatments and sign export certificates verifying ownership of a horse for export.

Many other reliable sources have visited the EAO over the years, one is Judi Parks, who are familiar with the set-up and can give their opinion on it as well, if they like.

therefore, neither Mashaan, Nabras or any other stallion of that era has been selected by Dr Branch. Since they and El Deree were used by the RAS, selected by their committee, indeed El Deree should have been a SOFI labeled horse, if this would now matter to anybody. I also can not find any mention of Aiglon. this is what I pointed out to Walter Schimanski, and when not adheared to, cancelled my membership of SOF.

When the committe votes to have a horse run either in a purebred or non-purebred race, the conlusion is presented to the Animal Section director, who automatically, it  appears, approves it. this would make sense because not always do vetenerians have expriences with certain details.and most certainly the directors do not attended then, as they dont now, such examination of horses or the voting of the a committee.Al such directors see is a piece of paper the voting results are written on. the Directors are not part of committies, otherwise it would be unethical or conflict of interest..What they are authorized to do however is to decide which mare is bred to what stallion under their jurisdiction. But that is far removed from them having the authority to aquire breeding stock on their own for the Government.

I trust that many a fabel, fantasie and wishful thinking is laid to rest and you all be guided as to the creditability of certain parties making such statements.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity arabian Farms
.
*



Hello Hansi,

While I do not presume to be a researcher by any stretch of anyone's imagination I have visted the EAO many times and have met and visited with Dr. Marsafi, Dr. Zaghloul and Dr. Soliman as well as the current Director and I have discussed many, many horses with all. It has always been stated to me that any decisions to be made about breeding have to be presented to the committee. When I asked Dr. Zaghloul to breed Ramiah to Hafid Anter he told me that he would present it to the committee and let me know. The same thing happened when I requested that Dr. Soliman breed the Hafid daughter (the result of the first request, "Rayah") to Al Aneed, the committee had to decide. Even when I asked if I could buy something it was up to the committee to decide what was for sale. There was even an argument one day in Dr. Zaghloul's office between Dr. Zaghloul and Dr. Helmy over the fact that Dr. Zaghloul thought that I should have one colt to bring back to the U.S. and Dr. Helmy didn't want to sell the colt!! Lots of very loud conversation and hand gestures laugh.gif The committee later on decided that the colt could be sold in the export auction but I was not able to get there in time and this colt went to Sheikha Lulula smile.gif

All breeding decisions have been made by the committee and still are being made this way today to my knowledge. I have attached an old black and white photo of the members of the board of the RAS when the board was first established. Vol 1 of the stud book.

Both Dr. Branch and General von Szandtner were utilized to help set up and improve the RAS breeding but neither had carte blanch in what happened or what was bred.

Judi
Eyegor
Oh Boy Kelly,
It is interesting how you twist facts via smoke just like the person you are now, all of a sudden, trying to imitate. I feel you should find someone else to emulate. ( a positive role model comes to mind instantly for me, try Ms Forbis).
It seems you are of the same ilk as nother vindictive poster.....
That is a real shame...
Regards??!!
HLM
Dear Judi

I know that you vitited the eAO various times and took valuable photos of many of the mares/breeding stock.Another person very familiar with the EAO is Denny Barbary, a very knowledgable breeder and equestrian and a good old friend..

Why I and others are taking statements of a certain party apart is, that such party has never been in the middle east, relies totally of what has been printed, overlooking corections, and concluding into fantasies.

Such fantasies are confusing our newcommers or those who wish to enter the field of research. Can you imagine if they would rely on statements coming from people never seen herd/breeding record books at the source, never went through an archive or came ever close to any of the breeding stock of the EAO and then decide who did what and when in their own intrepitation, based on personal motives.

It does not cost an arm and a leg to fly over there, spent days to research and then conclude or talk intelligently about detrimental matters.

As I stated before I cancelled my membership with SOF after I realized that
for personal motives/reasons/marketing, horses were selected into their rooster and others fitting into it left out, basically to make sure only a small number of horses are contained under such label. That was a foolish thing to do, makes reasons for such label highly obvious and with it SOF/SOFi lost in my opinion any and all creditability. When I look at an organization, I look at the head of the organization. Based on such creditability is either there or not. therefore everybody can conclude for themselves.

I think we are blessed, that we old timers are still alive and can share our experiences, knowledge and opinions openly, honestly and fair to all.

The collection of photos you have Judi is priceless.Your experiences as that of others very valuable. Such, when exposed, always co-incide, so it is not just one party who shares, but many others alive still can.

Al Khamsa made errors and when confronted corrected. So have I. We are human.
But neither one creates fantasies, writes novels and does wishfull thinking to suit a personal motive/purposes. that simply is not our style nor the purpose of preservation..

Have a grand day and thank you.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms



.
Echo1
Judi,

Thank you for posting this information. As it was explained to me by someone who raced horses on the track in Egypt, and has spent much time at the EAO/El Zahraa, this was the process and all was under a committee. No carte blanche as you say .
Thank you for verifying this information for us.
Have a great day.
Eyegor
QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 04:22 PM)
Dear Judi

I know that you vitited the eAO various times and took valuable photos of many of the mares/breeding stock.Another person very familiar with the EAO is Denny Barbary, a very knowledgable breeder and equestrian and a good old friend..

Why I and others are taking statements of a certain party apart is, that such party has never been in the middle east, relies totally of what has been printed, overlooking corections, and concluding into fantasies.

Such fantasies are confusing our newcommers or those who wish to enter the field of research. Can you imagine if they would rely on statements coming from people never seen herd/breeding record books at the source, never went through an archive or came ever close to any of the breeding stock of the EAO and then decide who did what and when in their own intrepitation, based on personal motives.

It does not cost an arm and a leg to fly over there, spent days to research and then conclude or talk intelligently about detrimental matters.

As I stated before I cancelled my membership with SOF after I realized that
for personal motives/reasons/marketing, horses were selected into their rooster and others fitting into it left out, basically to make sure only a small number of horses are contained under such label. That was a foolish thing to do, makes reasons for such label highly obvious and with it SOF/SOFi lost in my opinion any and all creditability. When I look at an organization, I look at the head of the organization. Based on such creditability is either there or not. therefore everybody can conclude for themselves.

I think we are blessed, that we old timers are still alive and can share our experiences, knowledge and opinions openly, honestly and fair to all.

The collection of photos you have Judi is priceless.Your experiences as that of others very valuable. Such, when exposed, always co-incide, so it is not just one party who shares, but many others alive still can.

Al Khamsa made errors and when confronted corrected. So have I. We are human.
But neither one creates fantasies, writes novels and does wishfull thinking to suit a personal motive/purposes. that simply is not our style nor the purpose of preservation..

Have a grand day and thank you.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
.
*


Do you actually believe what you just wrote????? So going to the middle east is your criteria of being a topnotch researcher???? The reason you argue with Caryn is because you feel she is misrepresenting what and promoting her own horses??????? She really doesn't have any anymore, you're barking up the wrong tree if that is your intent, you silly selfish old broad. I don't care where you've been, you are the best example of a researcher who twists findings into an avenue that suits yourselves. If you belittle all written information so much, why do you quote it. It's OK for you to use it but not if anyone else does. Don't you see how silly your argument is. Please give me strength.
Please, have your Friends et El Zahra send us an on-line affidavid with endorsement of your credibility....you drop names, but in truth none of those are actually friends of yours. Anyone who knows you sooner or later gets bitten and this forum is the centerpiece for your destructiveness. Keep the "Garbage" coming and I'm not talking about ElDeree.......Do yourself a favor as well, before you post again, try doing without a Highball in your hands, Your thoughts are so disorganized you just have to be "blottoed". No sober person would post in that manner...

Oliver, HILFE, Bitte, Hilfe
Echo1
QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 20 2007, 04:39 PM)
Do you actually believe what you just wrote????? So going to the middle east is your criteria of being a topnotch researcher???? The reason you argue with Caryn is because you feel she is misrepresenting what and promoting her own horses???????  She really doesn't have any anymore, you're barking up the wrong tree if that is your intent, you silly selfish old broad. I don't care where you've been, you are the best example of a researcher who twist findings into an avenue that suits yourselves. If you belittle all written information so much, why do you quote it. It's OK for you to use it but not if everyone else does. Don't you see how silly your argumant is. Please give me strength.
Please have your Friends et El Zahra send us an on-line affidavid awith endorsement of your credibility....you driop names but in truth none of those are actually friends of yours. Anyone who knows you sooner or later gets bitten and this forum is the centerpiece for your destructiveness.  Keep the "Garbage" coming and I'm not talking about ElDeree.......Do yourself a favor as well, before you post again, try doing without a Highball in your hands, Your thoughts are so disorganized you just have to be "blottoed".  No sober person would post in that manner...

Oliver, HILFE, Bitte, Hilfe
*



Joseph,
May I suggest to you that you walk away from this conversation. Post 52 speaks for itself. You are in no position to demand anything from EAO or anyone from the Middle East as you thank and compliment Mohamed in one breath and then in the next refer to the hujjay and it's translation as 'earth shaking garbage' which I find to be HIGHLY disrespectful. Go cool your jets, and refrain from posts such as above which are rude, disrespectful and inappropriate.


I hope everyone can see this is just an attempt by Joe to have this thread locked if he can start a personal attack on someone. I hope this thread can continue with giving quoted facts and a proper discussion of facts which are exempt of Joe's emotional outbursts.
2mntn
Anyone interested,

My wife and I were married in 1968. In the home of her parents was a proud possession - a set of Encylopedia Britannica. After my tour of duty in the Army (1968-71), my wife and I left her home town and set out on our own. Her parents gave us that set of books to take with us, expecting that their grandchildren would find them useful.

Our children reached the ages where research was required for school assignments. Imagine our dismay when we discovered that the treasured set of Encylopedia were so outdated as to be virtually useless as reference material.

I don't know how many revisions have been made to the Encylopedia Britannica over the years. I do know that they were on the 11th edition in 1911. My point is this - knowledge is not static, but ever changing. When published facts are found to be incorrect, those facts are republished. Again and again, if needed.

I don't know how many times I've been given exact opposite advise on coffee drinking. It's bad for your health, now it's good for your health. Medical research, in particular, changes the "facts" quite often. This can be quite disconcerting, to say the least!

Shooting the messenger is almost always inadvisable. Being burnt at the stake for claiming the Earth is round, and not the center of the universe went out of vogue some centuries ago. Just because we have documents nicely printed in hardcover with embossed lettering, does not mean we should never change them.

In the case of our "horse history", I would hope that serious historians in pursuit of the truth will be able to present their findings, without bias or persecution and, if that data is found to be valid, have this data entered into the records. It is my understanding that the Encylopedia Britannica has a very large group of folks whose only job is to keep the volumes up-to-date.

Ray
Caryn Rogosky
Good Morning!
Today is my birthday and I'll be away from my computer most of the day, enjoying a lovely afternoon with my husband, children and grandchildren who are taking me out to dinner. I'm also giving myself a birthday gift; I'm not going to read Kelly's or Hansi's posts. I think I want to be good to myself today. smile.gif

The information I provided represents everything that I currently know concerning Maashan, and I included the exact references for verification so that interested people can better inform themselves about the subject and come to their own conclusions.

Point:
I do not now, and never have had Maashan blood in my breeding horses. I do have now, and have always had El Dere blood in my breeding horses...We haven't bred in at least 8 years, could be more...but definitely too long. I miss it. We have retained just 3 precious mares and a stallion, along with our wonderful old gelding who is still ridden every day. These few horses are all boarded out now. We have hopes of being able to produce perhaps a couple of good horses before we are gone, God willing. We can hope, and we will try.

My own thoughts and my position:
I had nothing to do with the selection of the SO root horses, they were chosen many years ago by certain people whose knowledge of SE Arabian horse pedigree and history far exceed my own. I have deep regard for the mutual philosophy which brought them together, and I respect the definition and criteria crafted for the purpose of identification and root stock selection, reached by unified consensus. I feel the exact same way about the Pyramid Society and Al Khamsa. I have no desire whatsoever to attempt to "prove" or "disprove" the credibility or qualifications of any horse who proudly wears the labels provided by any of these three organizations. I honor each one these foundation horses with the dignity they so rightfully deserve as important, pure desert bred Arabian horse ancestors.

I have never attempted to discredit, demean or besmirch the reputations of any Arabian horse or any breeder...EVER, and I never shall. Success means different things to different people, but I believe that the only honorable path to reaching that goal is one which is paved with positive energy and marked by the tenets of fair play, even if it means working harder or getting there later; even if it means never getting there at all. I have tremendous admiration for all those who have reached high levels of renown in their field only through hard work, passion, and determination to meet the highest standards of their industries. For those who attempt short cuts to fame and glory via kicking the competition in the belly, poisoning their water, placing curses on their heads, or stomping on their backs to gain a lead, I have only deep repulsion. The greater the distance I can manage between them and myself, the happier I will be. Life's too short. cool.gif

Al Khamsa, the Pyramid Society and SOFI are all legitimate, legal entities. Their root stock lists are their intellectual property and theirs alone to maintain. So... kicking, screaming and bad-mouthing of their root lists by the perpetually disguntled may get some attention (as in "five minutes of fame), but is otherwise fruitless. Go tell Coca Cola that becuase you don't like the idea that they use corn syrup in their their soft drink that they have no right to include it their recipe. See how far that gets you. As they say....

The dogs may bark, but the caravan continues on.

I hope everyone enjoys this beautiful Sunday.

Caryn Rogosky
Echo1
Dear Caryn,

First let me wish you happy birthday and I do hope you enjoy your day and your family. I will refrain from posting any comments or questions to you for the rest of the weekend so you may enjoy this time with your family.
Marilyn Lang
A very Happy Birthday to a special person whose love and devotion to her family, friends and her horses is without question. So proud to be in your circle of friends.

Have a fantastic day filled with much love and laughter.

XOXO
Marilyn
Robert 1
Hi Caryn,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU AND I DO HOPE YOU ENOY ALL THE BEAUTIFUL FEELINGS OF THE DAY THAT ONLY FAMILY CAN GIVE TO YOU. biggrin.gif

I do need to agree with you that the personal feelings should be left at the door but, some how they have a way of crawling inside and becoming part of the outside when certain topics are mentioned, I know we all feel as if we are the ones with the correct answers and this sometimes is what makes it all interesting reading but, the personal and OBVIOUS insults and name calling are not needed by some, if one can't accept that they are losing there is no need for that in order to get another thread closed. I am so glad you do not behave as some others do, thank you and enjoy your wonderful birthday. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
eric
Caryn,

Jody and I wish you much love on this very special day. Please understand that you are truly blessed with a wonderful family and with wonderful friends.

XOXO

Eric
Eyegor
Hello Caryn,
I am so sorry I did not realize it was your birthday. Jenny and I wish you a most wonderful day and may it be blessed with true happiness and Joy.
I have read your posts for over a decade and you have forever been a most honorable person and know you have always posted in deference to other opinions. Although I have never met you in person I am proud to see you as a friend.
May God in his infinite wisdom make this day and all your days a joyous celebration of life.

With my Highest Regards and never ending Respect,
Happy Birthday Caryn

Jenny and Joe Linzner,
from out California way.
Eyegor
posted by the famous Kelly:

(((JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."



QUOTE(Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?







From the El Deree thread. May 14. ))))))))))

That particualr line is intended to mean that earth shaking and New is the Garbage part, Because nothing she posted actually is new at all. Has nothing to do with ElDeree but what it is she attributed to the "discovery" .
It reads just like a plagiarized re-write of a combination of well known reference material. Period. Never would I invoke the name God in the negative , no matter whose, in vain on any public thread, I don't even do that in private. Particularly not on a tread involving horses. It also refers that instead of posting the happy News, she immediately had to turn it into a diatribe AGAINST another horse and that is the biggest "garbage" of it all. To try and prove one's belief that something is new by disparaging another horse as further proof of one's expertise is despicable.
It's Like me congratulating myself on having kids and in the same breath telling you that yours are someone else's???? I would never ever even think to do that???

I know you have difficulty understanding the written english word but I do feel you have the right to read it anyway you wish mostly because being illiterate, 50% of the true meaning is above your reading level.

Insulting? How was that, Does it meet your level of expectation.
I do think that giving people like you and Hansi a podia where you can slander, create ill will, defame and attack the integrity of not just horses but individuals (who have never posted negatively in any manner to be despiccably dishonorable) should be censured.
As far as I am concerned This type of thread which is really going no-where, particulalry since you and the EXPERT are doing nothing but taking posts out of context and just attacking the person., should be closed. You never add anything new and earthshaking. You never deal with facts but merely sling accusations and allusions. Never ever do you actually define a reason for your deduction nor do you seem to understand that, said person is truly only posting what it actually does say, without embellishment. How many times must it be said "that regardless of what you and Hansi think it says" is a reflection on your capacity to just not understand what is written. Some people just post to state facts, to honestly refer people to a location where that fact can be read in actuality. Others post merely to read themselves on line. A sort of Narcissism.
There is not a single passage in the BIBLE that is interpreted that same way by every person in exactly the same way. Thats why there are a gazillion different denominations why there are different sects in Islam as well.....
I can't prove the accuracy of the Bible, I can't prove the differences in any understanding of what it says and I do not have the right to tell anyone that they are wrong and only I am right. First I am not qualified and second I wouldn't because I respect individual rights.....If new data is found an labelled earthshaking one expects it to be trukly new and earthshaking not a rehash of what is already known and re-post it as NEW. That's the garbage here.
Why can't I ask anyone topost, How is that negative. I do not need you to tell what I ccan and cannot post or ask>>????
I'm afraid you are actually not a all worth any further replies. So take your opinion and put it wherever you will...... adieu
Truly
Echo1
QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 20 2007, 11:50 PM)
posted by the famous Kelly:

(((JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."
QUOTE(Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage  have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?
From the El Deree thread. May 14. ))))))))))

That particualr line is intended to mean that earth shaking and New  is the Garbage part, Because nothing she posted actually is new at all. Has nothing to do with ElDeree but what it is she attributed to the "discovery" .
It reads just like a plagiarized re-write of a combination of well known reference material. Period. Never would I invoke the name God in the negative , no matter whose,  in vain on any public thread, I don't even do that in private. Particularly not on a tread involving horses. It also refers that instead of posting the happy News, she immediately had to turn it into a diatribe AGAINST another horse and that is the biggest "garbage" of it all.  To try and prove one's belief that something is new by disparaging another horse as further proof of one's expertise is despicable.
  It's Like me congratulating myself on having kids and in the same breath telling you that yours are someone else's????  I would never ever even think to do that???

I know you have difficulty understanding the written english word but I do feel you have the right to read it anyway you wish mostly because being illiterate, 50% of the true meaning is above your reading level.

Insulting?  How was that,  Does it meet your level of expectation.
I do think that giving people like you and Hansi a podia where you can slander, create ill will, defame and attack the integrity of not just horses but individuals (who have never posted negatively in any manner to be despiccably dishonorable) should be censured.   
As far as I am concerned This type of thread which is really going no-where, particulalry since you and the EXPERT are doing nothing but taking posts out of context and just attacking the person., should be closed. You never add anything new and earthshaking. You never deal with facts but merely sling  accusations and allusions. Never ever do you actually define a reason for your deduction nor do you seem to understand that, said person is truly only posting what it actually does say, without embellishment. How many times must it be said "that regardless of what you and Hansi think it says" is a reflection on your capacity to just not understand what is written. Some people just post to state facts, to honestly refer people to a location where that fact can be read in actuality. Others post merely to read themselves on line. A sort of Narcissism.
There is not a single passage in the BIBLE that is interpreted that same way by every person in exactly the same way. Thats why there are a gazillion different denominations why there are different sects in Islam as well.....
I can't prove the accuracy of the Bible, I can't prove the differences in any understanding of what it says and I do not have the right to tell anyone that they are wrong and only I am right. First I am not qualified and second I wouldn't because I respect individual rights.....If new data is found an labelled earthshaking one expects it to be trukly new and earthshaking not a rehash of what is already known and re-post it as NEW. That's the garbage here.
Why can't I ask anyone topost, How is that negative. I do not need you to tell what I ccan and cannot post or ask>>???? 
I'm afraid you are actually not a all worth any further replies. So take your opinion and put it wherever you will...... adieu
Truly
*


Another attempt to engage in a personal attack to lock the thread.
Joe, you've lost all credibility and respect .....on several contintents.
MAXHOPEMIME
I've been reading this thread since its beginnig and still have not come across the answer for the question asked.
Can someboly out there tell me why Mashaan is SOFI /SOF amd El Dere is not?
From what I believe I have read on this thread Both of these stallions came from the same origin and traveled similar paths to the RAS?
Was it because Dr Branch was more involved with Mashaan than El Dere?
And if so was it because there are references in writting about Mashaan by Dr Branch?

Chris
Kimberli Nelson
When Al Khamsa 1 came out in 1982, it listed foundation horses for the country of Egypt as “Egypt”, “Blunt” and “Inshass”.

Jay Gormley, Edna Weeks and Julia Byfield were the founders of The Sheykh Obeyd Foundation, SOF, not to be confused with SOFI. The choice of horses for these three breeders were the Egypt/Blunt horses. They choose NOT to include any horse listed under the Al Khamsa designation of "Inshass". These horses were El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka and Nafaa.

This is very simple to understand. It does not matter when any of the Inshass horses went to the RAS, when they were bred for the first time, when they raced or whose auspices they were under. They were not chosen for inclusion in SOF by the three founders.

I hope this answers your question.
Robert 1
Hi Kimberli,
A nice simple explanation wih no hidden spaces for questions, Thanks. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Oh, and Congratulations on your new stallion addition, I like the picture of him, his face has that true Desert Arabian look that is so hard to find nowdays, I hope you get blessed with some nice foals from him. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Caryn Rogosky
Friends,
Thank you very much for the wonderful birthday wishes and for the precious gifts of your warm sentiments. You've helped to make this a very special day for me. I truly do understand that I am a very blessed woman, and am grateful every day of my life for all that I've been given. The best friends I've ever had in my lifetime are those I've met through my involvement with Arabian horses.

You know, when you have your family, your health and real friendship, there's nothing more you can hope for.

Well...maybe just a pasture full of gorgeous Arabian horses, but that's all, ...really. smile.gif
Caryn
MAXHOPEMIME
Thank you Kimberli!
That was such a simple answer to the simple question ( As thats what I thought the question originally was asking anyway)
It looks like it took 5 pages of of arguments to get to a perfectly acceptable answer.
Thank you again from someone who doesn't have time to do my own research (yet)
Chris
MAXHOPEMIME
My bad, I just reread the original posts and My question had no relevence to them.
BUT IT SURE HELPED ME OUT!
Chris
Caryn Rogosky
Chris said:
"I've been reading this thread since its beginnig and still have not come across the answer for the question asked.
Can someboly out there tell me why Mashaan is SOFI /SOF amd El Dere is not?
From what I believe I have read on this thread Both of these stallions came from the same origin and traveled similar paths to the RAS?
Was it because Dr Branch was more involved with Mashaan than El Dere?
And if so was it because there are references in writting about Mashaan by Dr Branch?"


Hi Chris,
I wanted to clarify that while the Inshass horses are not SO, Hamdan is an exception. This is because Hamdan was born at the RAS (and later went to Inshass) and descends exclusively from SO qualified ancestors.

I don't know how much involvement Dr. Branch had with Mashaan. That point is clearly debatable. I do know, based on what Judi Forbis reported in her 1970 interview with the Sheikh who owned Mashaan, that he was leased to the RAS "then managed by Dr. Branch". I have always found Mrs. Forbis' information to be extremely credible and reliable (and I'm sure the SOF founders did as well), and what possible reason would she have had to specifically include that bit of information if it were not so? I am personally quite satisfied that Mashaan was aquired by the RAS while under the auspices of Dr. Branch, which is one way in which an ancestor was qualified as a SO foundation horse. That said, it doesn't matter whether I'm personally satisfied or not...it is a fact that Mashaan is a SO foundation horse, by right and by law, regardless of my personal opinion.

i would also emphasize that the testimony of Sheikh Abdul Aziz is the only original information we have on Mashaan that I know of. If you follow the sequence of how other references were formed, you can see that these are interpretations or references which build, one upon the other, but eventually trace back to this. Even Dr. Ashoub's entry in the RAS History book was considerably distant from the actual event, and he does not give any date or even any time frame for when Mashaan arrived there. Contrary to what was stated earlier, this book does not state that he was acquired after his racing career.

El Dere was gifted to the RAS by King Fouad after the retirement of Dr. Branch, to my knowledge this is a fact which is undisputed by anyone. He also does not qualify under any other portion of the criteria for inclusion of a SO foundation ancestor. However, El Dere was one of the most popular sires at the RAS / EAO after the retirement of Dr. Branch and his blood is reflected very, very heavily within the general SE population. El Dere descendants rank amongst the most magnificent Arabians in the world, and there is an outstanding preservation organization which focuses on preserving and promoting this bloodline (amongst others), and that is the Pyramid Society. Today, there is only a very small percentage of SE Arabian horses who do not carry El Dere blood, and fequently many times over. Fortunately, it doesn't appear that there is any real danger of losing this important line for future SE breeders.

Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
One last thing, then I'm calling it a day.

All preservation organizations must identify their particular focus of interest. This means that parameters have to be set, a circle must be draw around a group in order to reflect that identity. Any time a circle is drawn, some horses will fall well into the center, some will fall just to the inside, and then others will fall just to the outside. In all cases, there will people who are unhappy with exactly where the circle was drawn. The same issue has been debated for years regarding Al Khamsa's boundaries and regarding the Pyramid Societies boundaries. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, the root lists of legal organizations are their own intellectual property and said organizations are the sole authorities regarding their content. Everyone in our large, wonderful Arabian horse community has the freedom to associate with whatever organizations best suit their own breeding philosophies and preferences, no arguments necessary.

Caryn Rogosky
Eyegor
Dear MAXHOPEMIME,
yes it is a VERY simple answer, it is after all every organizations right to select those foundation horses they wish and the breeders who either introduced and or used those horses in any way.
That 's a fact.

This is my take
What is very unprofessional and even rude, is for someone to barge right in and tell that organization that A, their whole premise is wrong, based on rubbish and they do not follow their own rules. B. they are merely doing that to sell for high prices and are breeding inferior horse. C, they misrepresent the horses and simply to get exhorbitant prices for these horse.
Why, may I ask would one person do that????? Just does not make sense to me. My question has been and always will be WHY is she and her lackey doing that?????
What earthly reason would there be to destroy a whole group of horses and to impeach an organization of which she is not a member of, just moments ago it was an attack on the Pyranid Society, this is geared at SOFI, AlKhamsa has been maligned as well, What possible good can come from that?????
Caryn has posted the facts over and over again, as they are written in the very books used to establish SOF and later SOFI, bylaws are very similar. Yet both Hansi and Kelly repeatedly discount even those as being erroneous??? Even if that were true, it really doesn't matter. The horse that are accepted by SOFI are what they are period. If she does not like that, don't use those horses, just do not claim they are also part of your herd. The honorable thing would be to simply say: " I don't agrre with your tenets so I won't be a part of that group" , wouldn't you say that would be acceptable to us all, and without question that is her right. To constantly harangue and harangue solves nothing. To constantly gibe at people personally, especially one who has bent over backwards to remain factual is asinine.
This thread has accomlplished what exactly??/ It has established the fact that there are two people posting on here, who no matter if facts are presented as they are written in generally accepted reference materials, they, both Hansi and Kelly, know better. Yet both readilly admit that they have troble understanding standard english. One, because English is not her mother tongue and the other for reasons only known to her. That is what has been established. I for one, am not at all interested in their shortcomings, mostly because I have plenty of my own....being a selfish jerk , those take precedence. Personally, I can tell you this, English is also not my mother tongue, as I too hail from a German speaking country and yet I understand my adopted language as well as a native born and in actuality in some ways, even better. Reason for that is, because I tried very hard to learn and then excel. I am a naturalized citizen, green card, check in yearly, the whole nine yards did everything by the book to gain my citizenship. Extra civics classes, like I said, the entire gamut........yet there are those who conveniently hide behind language difficulties because it isn't their mother tongue. BS, it is a mere convenience to excuse rudeness. I have no idea why Kelly is so vehemently against any organization either, but it has been established that she is incapable of original thought, so I can excuse that as well as illiteracy. That must be it because I have been accused of being arrogant through my use of English and that I should not use the words I use because I am talking down to them???. I guarantee you after 37 years in Engineering, ramrodding projects and building highway, writing permits while dealing with the public daily and some of them quite irate for having to adhere to codes, when I also owned a private non-engineering business and wrote proposals etc., etc., etc. , I have never been accused of using fancy or pretentious language. Yet here on this forum I get accused of such. Go figure?????however take a look at who that might be....'Nuff said???
I once aksed her the price one one of her mares, the ones she would have to put down if they weren't sold... She became Irate and told me point blank that if I had to ask how much, I couldn't afford one of her horses. A fact she continues to deny.....she then told me I must have been speaking to her Secretary. That was posted on Awhitehorse and I have hard copies, as well as all her conversation with Mr Patrick, a Belgian horse breeder dealer. Quite educating those. She claims to be educating and protecting the small breeder. when we actually need protection from Hansi and Kelly?????
What is doubly sad, is that I have read her very same arguments and non-replies for more than 17 years........not once has she ever answered a question with facts and references, it always degenerates in her calling people names, heck it doesn't even bother me anymore when she directs those at me but it bothers me when she does that to a person who tries so very hard to post actual fact and a person I respect and admire. It goes even further, anyone who then tries to post anything even a bit agreeing with that person then becomes her enemy automatically. Kind a childish that don't 'yah think?
I am actually very proud to lead that list. I have told her personally even on this forum that as long as she posts about horses she will never hear a peep out of me but the minute she attacks people, I vow to be her conscience. I do not break my word...
If they don't have anything positive to contribute then please would it not be very nice for both of them to do us all a favor, and shut up.
Hansi and Kelly that is .........
Kindest regards,
Joe
Oh and thanks for asking
MAXHOPEMIME
Thank you Caryn and Joe,
To me a label is just that a label . It is not what brought me to the Straigh Egyptian.
It of course was the Horses themselves.
Chris
Eyegor
It was exactly the same for us.........It is Forever all about the horses...
Mr Prospector
But it still doesn't excuse the fact that some very pertinent questions have been asked and that straight, direct answers have not been forthcoming. So even though you want to set a high bar for Hansi, you are not prepared to set that same bar height for yourselves.

I have nothing to do with Hansi, I have never met the woman, nor do I have any horses that are presently "Arabian" even, so I do not have any sort of vested interest with the woman. Nevertheless, I personally believe she has asked legitimate questions and yes, she persistently asks similar questions. The thing is you have to understand is that she gets you angry and you have to wonder why you are angry and you are then forced to think. It is the thinking that is the main object of her questions, no so much the questions themselves.

You have quite clearly shown that thinking isn't your strong points or you would have answered her questions years ago and moved on. I think you just enjoy the getting so upset with her that you keep prodding and llike a good teacher Hansi makes you go on. I think you - heck, we - owe her many thanks.

JMHO
karen

PS You know I'm right. blink.gif
Eyegor
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ May 21 2007, 07:30 AM)
But it still doesn't excuse the fact that some very pertinent questions have been asked and that straight, direct answers have not been forthcoming.  So even though you want to set a high bar for Hansi, you are not prepared to set that same bar height for yourselves. 

I have nothing to do with Hansi, I have never met the woman, nor do I have any horses that are presently "Arabian" even, so I do not have any sort of vested interest with the woman. Nevertheless, I personally believe she has asked legitimate questions and yes, she persistently asks similar questions.  The thing is you have to understand is that she gets you angry and you have to wonder why you are angry and you are then forced to think.  It is the thinking that is the main object of her questions, no so much the questions themselves. 

You have quite clearly shown that thinking isn't your strong points or you would have answered her questions years ago and moved on.  I think you just enjoy the getting so upset with her that you keep prodding and llike a good teacher Hansi makes you go on.  I think you - heck, we - owe her many thanks.

JMHO
karen

PS You know I'm right. blink.gif
*



I am sorry that is the way you see it, I have answered her questions over and over, If you read the posts what questions have I not answered???? Please point out which questions are unanswered on my part and which questions I have asked and she has not answered.
Sadly I know who is right......all I want is for her to stop creating trouble, that's it. I knw what my standards are and with those I am content, here is hoping you are content with yours......

Thinking, wish I could stop.....then I wouldn't care.....
Thanks for asking ....and I do respect your opinion as I hope you let me state mine...
Gari
Ray wrote,

"Anyone interested,

My wife and I were married in 1968. In the home of her parents was a proud possession - a set of Encylopedia Britannica. After my tour of duty in the Army (1968-71), my wife and I left her home town and set out on our own. Her parents gave us that set of books to take with us, expecting that their grandchildren would find them useful.

Our children reached the ages where research was required for school assignments. Imagine our dismay when we discovered that the treasured set of Encylopedia were so outdated as to be virtually useless as reference material.

I don't know how many revisions have been made to the Encylopedia Britannica over the years. I do know that they were on the 11th edition in 1911. My point is this - knowledge is not static, but ever changing. When published facts are found to be incorrect, those facts are republished. Again and again, if needed.

I don't know how many times I've been given exact opposite advise on coffee drinking. It's bad for your health, now it's good for your health. Medical research, in particular, changes the "facts" quite often. This can be quite disconcerting, to say the least!

Shooting the messenger is almost always inadvisable. Being burnt at the stake for claiming the Earth is round, and not the center of the universe went out of vogue some centuries ago. Just because we have documents nicely printed in hardcover with embossed lettering, does not mean we should never change them.

In the case of our "horse history", I would hope that serious historians in pursuit of the truth will be able to present their findings, without bias or persecution and, if that data is found to be valid, have this data entered into the records. It is my understanding that the Encylopedia Britannica has a very large group of folks whose only job is to keep the volumes up-to-date. "



Hi Ray,

Excellent point...and things keep coming to light that heretofore changes oh so much...Most recently mitochondrial DNA demonstrating that strains are a political figment as opposed to something esoterically pure...the Darwin to Eden of Arabdom. From reading Caryn's research-she is using several sources as opposed to one or two and in all the years I've known her found her willing to look over differing points of view, keep an open mind and in the end after checking with experts throughout Arabdom, always found her to have the most up to date and reliable information.

Caryn,

A belated but very very happy birthday! As always your wonderful research is simply unparalleled. Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise.
Marilyn Lang
Thank you so much Kimberli for a simple explanation that should satisfy anyone's curiosity about how the root stock list for SOF and now SOFI was selected. I was not present nor included in any of those formulative meetings but clearly, they used the Al Khamsa designations to select the root stock list. HORSES DESIGNATED AS INSHASS WERE NOT INCLUDED. I certainly would not put words in their mouth and wish one if not all three would further state their reasons for their selection criteria as they are all still living. Maybe that will happen in the future. Regardless, the root stock list of SOFI is what it is and will not be changed. Many of the horses within the root stock list are lost, gone forever and many are very close to being lost. Some may not find that important but others do find it very important to maintain a gene pool of rare bloodlines for future generations of breeders. Most preservation breeders are truly dedicated and I think are deserving of a little respect and support rather those horses are to your liking or not. I think most who post on this forum are respectful with the exception of several persons who seem hell bent on destruction of other breeders years of hard work and dedication and I might add, think sometimes it is out of pure jealousy and a need to be recognized. Unfortunately, the recognition they are receiving is not the type of recognition they seek.

I hope this explanation given by Kimberli will end this debate but somehow, I doubt it.

Respectfully,
Marilyn Lang
Marilyn Lang
Thank you so much Kimberli for a simple explanation that should satisfy anyone's curiosity about how the root stock list for SOF and now SOFI was selected. I was not present nor included in any of those formulative meetings but clearly, they used the Al Khamsa designations to select the root stock list. HORSES DESIGNATED AS INSHASS WERE NOT INCLUDED. I certainly would not put words in their mouth and wish one if not all three would further state their reasons for their selection criteria as they are all still living. Maybe that will happen in the future. Regardless, the root stock list of SOFI is what it is and will not be changed. Many of the horses within the root stock list are lost, gone forever and many are very close to being lost. Some may not find that important but others do find it very important to maintain a gene pool of rare bloodlines for future generations of breeders. Most preservation breeders are truly dedicated and I think are deserving of a little respect and support rather those horses are to your liking or not. I think most who post on this forum are respectful with the exception of several persons who seem hell bent on destruction of other breeders years of hard work and dedication and I might add, think sometimes it is out of pure jealousy and a need to be recognized. Unfortunately, the recognition they are receiving is not the type of recognition they seek.

I hope this explanation given by Kimberli will end this debate but somehow, I doubt it.

Respectfully,
Marilyn Lang
HLM
Dear Marylin

Ray explained well how research, new eras can change many a conclusion of long ago. Interlects will have an open mind for it, because their intelligence would not allow them to do otherwise. Like the world is not flat, etc.

I do not know of anybody who has ever advocated beign against a preservtion grouip, far from it, and that includes me.What some of us have questioned is the reason for it, be it just bloodline/pedigree without prove of what these horses can do, or whatever. But even this is up to the individuals.What I and other question is the selection of the root stock.

When I asked a question some 13 yers ago- that's when I first got on the internet with the Whitehorse- where Exochorda was born, were her parents went after 1920/1921, who was the breeder, A wildfire started which has not stopped. Yet no simple, direct answer was given- such as" we do not know" but all sorts of fictions were given instead. When I explained that breeder then given as "RAS" was wrong, stated that I have the documents to substantiate this- it is ignored up to date.While RAS horses are accepted by SOF/SOFI, one cant leave one in which is not, or? If one does, then one should footnote honestly the reason, as Al Khamsa does with those of questionable pedigrees/colours etc.. Sometimes these questionables through more research became explained and accepted by whoever had the interest. One should also respect, or at least try to, when other researchers dilligently continue hoping to eventually come up with a report.

Both Mr Linzner and his friends have continously stated on this forum "We have more data on Exochorda than on El Dere" for ever using this statement.
My finally getting the documented data and hapyli presenting it, it was called "Garbage".Do you and your group really understand what it takes to get bona-fide data? do you realize the time,effort and mony spent to research on a horse since 1971 and still not receiving bonafide data? Now explain to me please if the statement" we have more data on Exochorda than El Deree" is valid!

When such disrespect, denial of facts, insults and personal attacks are brought forward to the public, what do you think will happen? What did happen is that creditability became first in question, and then lost greatly.
People learned to differentiate between researches who only accept data of written works which suits them and totally overgo research of people who factually have gone through archives, spoken to people abroad, etc.etc. These people will not ruin their reputation by giving false statements, I assure you.

Dr Branch, for instance, has never been a person of consequence, other than he was a director of the RAS, as we have directors todate by the EAO. Judi Parks explained the "Horse Committee" also and every import to the USA AND TO ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WAS INSPECTED FIRST BY SUCH COMMITTEE, before a purchase was allowed.
that includes All Gleannloch, Serenity,Ansata horses. Such directors to the best of my knowledge were NEVER a deciding factor either, the hrose committee was and still is.!!!!.
Continously it is brought forward what all Dr Branch did, when there is absolutely no record of such to be found anywhere.Furthermore, when another director takes over, it is highly unusual even to refer back to a previous one and most certainly will not be influenced. Dr Branch was not the person who aquired for lease or purchase either El Deree, Nabras or Mashaan, because he was not even there when the latter two were aquired for lease in 1934/1935.. So why deny this, why try to circumvent facts? What will it prove, other than shedding doubts on the SOFI organization for misrepresenting facts and its creditability..

During these 13 years at least each one of you had the chance to go to egypt, to the eAO and other breeders, such as Albadeia, Denny Barbary, Hamdan Stables to veryfy matters, especially since discrepancies were noted and given to get to the root of the problem. May be you did or your friends, and if so, may be we can hear about it? We sent our deligation years ago- through Syria- which includes Joe Ferris, rosemary Doyle, Debbi and G Dirks, etc who came back with an excellent report and long video. Jens Sannek and Bernd Lowenherz,Germany also went through it and published the outstanding report book " Wuestenblut" (Desert Legacy). do you own a copy? It is highly educational and "factual" because I saw and experienced the identical thing brought forward in this publication, met some of the people discribed..

I went to Syria and joined the six day trip especially to meet the High sheikh of the Jibur Tribe to lay to rest the statment in Hanan book" He was bought from a horsedealer". I knew we be passing the area and I would get again in contact with creditable people. I made myself quite clear that I have to meet them, even if I have to walk there. And that is called by your friend "Garbage"??? And when advised that the grandson of the breeder is alive and willing to come and join our group that night, it was a dream come true. can you understand this please?
and that is "garbage" a deadly insult to the Arabian people/Bedus which can never be rectified.And when caught with this insulting remark, it is suddenly changed.
Is this creditability? Marylin, I can only suggest that some people learn the cultures of other people/countries, that might even prevent wars. that means going there, meeting them and study and learn. Please remember that at least 98percent of the ancestors of the SEs came from Syria and that such tribes still exist today. that includes the SOFI label horses.

There were at least 80 people that last night in the room of the Four Season Hotel in Damascus, from numerous nations and Se breeders/owners involved when I received the document, who were jubilant, which includes 5 diretors of the Asil Club, renowned people and experts.One had travelled years through the desert and met many tribes (Klaus Denart). And this is "Garbage"? We are "Garbage"?

You could have done the same and trying to ascertain data of Aiglon and Leila.The doors were wide open. I did not have the time or orportunity to do so, but am on the trail of the subject. I had many excuses to not go, my age and health, but that did not stop me. And that is "Garbage"??

Indeed insults, attacks etc do explan a person's mind. You go and judge it now. We have a saying in German" show me who your friends are and I shall tell you who you are". I found such saying highly accurate.

The tribes/breeders in the Middle east and regions dont have a clue about our "Label" groups, nor do they care. They care that the horse is "Asil" and that indeed is the essence for preservation. I have stated that if the parents of Exochorda are as given, than the horse is Asil. "Asil" is substantiated by the inspection committee at such time, regardles of parentage.Is this not really what should matter? so why all these fictions, assumptions, with no accurate proof? do you feel this is honorable, creditable and should be applauded? do you feel this is even accurate research? and what qualification do such researchers bring along?

I hope that you understand and receive in good faith the above
and help solve the puzzle, rather than sweeping it under the carpet.Remember, when you lift such the carpet for cleaning, it will come right back up.

Have a grand day and may be some day you come and visit and I be delighted to open my files to you. you are welcome.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.
Nadj al Nur
Hansi, in order to get to the heart of this matter, I think that it is neccessary on your part, to forget about whatever happened with all of these OTHER people and OTHER organizations over the years and simply explain to everyone what EXACTLY it is that is NEW in this document, and WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT.
I fully agree that any NEW information is good, but we need to understand just what that is.Perhaps you can explain this for us?
Leaving out all of the other stuff, I think that is what everyone wants.
Thank you
Cathy
Eyegor
QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 01:54 PM)
Dear Marylin

Ray explained well how research, new eras can change many a conclusion of long ago. Interlects will have an open mind for it, because their intelligence would not allow them to do otherwise. Like the world is not flat, etc.

I do not know of anybody who has ever advocated beign against a preservtion grouip, far from it, and that includes me.What some of us have questioned is the reason for it, be it just bloodline/pedigree without prove of what these horses can do, or whatever. But even this is up to the individuals.What I and other question is the selection of the root stock.

When I asked a question some 13 yers ago- that's when I first got on the internet with the Whitehorse- where Exochorda was born, were her parents went after 1920/1921, who was the breeder, A wildfire started which has not stopped. Yet no simple, direct answer was given- such as" we do not know" but all sorts of fictions were given instead.  When I explained that breeder then given as "RAS" was wrong, stated that I have the documents to substantiate this- it is ignored up to date.While RAS horses are accepted by SOF/SOFI, one cant leave one in which is not, or? If one does, then one should footnote honestly the reason, as Al Khamsa does with those of questionable pedigrees/colours etc.. Sometimes these questionables through more research became explained and accepted by whoever had the interest. One should also respect, or at least try to, when other researchers dilligently continue hoping to eventually come up with a report.

Both Mr Linzner and his friends have continously stated on this forum "We have more data on Exochorda than on El Dere" for ever using this statement.
My finally getting the documented data and hapyli presenting it, it was called "Garbage".Do you and your group really understand what it takes to get bona-fide data? do you realize the time,effort and mony spent to research on a horse since 1971 and still not receiving bonafide data? Now explain to me please if the statement" we have more data on Exochorda than El Deree" is valid!

When such disrespect, denial of facts, insults and personal attacks are brought forward to the public, what do you think will happen? What did happen is that creditability became first in question, and then lost greatly.
People learned to differentiate between researches who only accept data of written works which suits them and totally overgo research of people who factually have gone through archives, spoken to people abroad, etc.etc. These people will not ruin their reputation by giving false statements, I assure you.

Dr Branch, for instance, has never been a person of consequence, other than he was a director of the RAS, as we have directors todate by the EAO. Judi Parks explained the "Horse Committee" also and every import to the USA AND TO ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WAS INSPECTED FIRST BY SUCH COMMITTEE, before a purchase was allowed.
that includes All Gleannloch, Serenity,Ansata horses. Such directors to the best of my knowledge were NEVER a deciding factor either, the hrose committee was and still is.!!!!.
Continously it is brought forward what all Dr Branch did, when there is absolutely no record of such to be found anywhere.Furthermore, when another director takes over, it is highly unusual even to refer back to a previous one and most certainly will not be influenced. Dr Branch was not the person who aquired for lease or purchase either El Deree, Nabras or Mashaan, because he was not even there when the latter two were aquired for lease in 1934/1935.. So why deny this, why try to circumvent facts? What will it prove, other than shedding doubts on the SOFI organization for misrepresenting facts and its creditability..

During these 13 years at least each one of you had the chance to go to egypt, to the eAO and other breeders, such as Albadeia, Denny Barbary, Hamdan Stables to veryfy matters, especially since discrepancies were noted and given to get to the root of the problem. May be you did or your friends, and if so, may be we can hear about it? We sent our deligation years ago- through Syria- which includes Joe Ferris, rosemary Doyle, Debbi and G Dirks, etc who came back with an excellent report and long video. Jens Sannek and Bernd Lowenherz,Germany also went through it and published the outstanding report book " Wuestenblut" (Desert Legacy). do you own a copy? It is highly educational and "factual" because I saw and experienced the identical thing brought forward in this publication, met some of the people discribed..

I went to Syria and joined the six day trip especially to meet the High sheikh of the Jibur Tribe to lay to rest the statment in Hanan book" He was bought from a horsedealer". I knew we be passing the area and I would get again in contact with creditable people. I made myself quite clear that I have to meet them, even if I have to walk there. And that is called by your friend "Garbage"??? And when advised that the grandson of the breeder is alive and willing to come and join our group that night, it was a dream come true. can you understand this please?
and that is "garbage" a deadly insult to the Arabian people/Bedus which can never be rectified.And when caught with this insulting remark, it is suddenly changed.
Is this creditability? Marylin, I can only suggest that some people learn the cultures of other people/countries, that might even prevent wars. that means going there, meeting them and study and learn. Please remember that at least 98percent of the ancestors of the SEs came from Syria and that such tribes still exist today. that includes the SOFI label horses.

There were at least 80 people that last night in the room of the Four Season Hotel in Damascus, from numerous nations and Se breeders/owners involved  when I received the document, who were jubilant, which includes 5 diretors of the Asil Club, renowned people and experts.One had travelled years through the desert and met many tribes (Klaus Denart). And this is "Garbage"? We are "Garbage"?

You could have done the same and trying to ascertain data of Aiglon and Leila.The doors were wide open. I did not have the time or orportunity to do so, but am on the trail of the subject. I had many excuses to not go, my age and health, but that did not stop me. And that is "Garbage"??

Indeed insults, attacks etc do explan a person's mind. You go and judge it now. We have a saying in German" show me who your friends are and I shall tell you who you are". I found such saying highly accurate.

The tribes/breeders in the Middle east and regions dont have a clue about our "Label" groups, nor do they care. They care that the horse is "Asil" and that indeed is the essence for preservation. I have stated that if the parents of Exochorda are as given, than the horse is Asil. "Asil" is substantiated by the inspection committee at such time, regardles of parentage.Is this not really what should matter? so why all these fictions, assumptions, with no accurate proof? do you feel this is honorable, creditable and should be applauded? do you feel this is even accurate research? and what qualification do such researchers bring along?

I hope that you understand and receive in good faith the above
and help solve the puzzle, rather than sweeping it under the carpet.Remember, when you lift such the carpet for cleaning, it will come right back up.

Have a grand day and may be some day you come and visit and I be delighted to open my files to you. you are welcome.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.
*



OK Hansi, one more time,
what I consider to be Garbage is your initial revelation of earthshaking, history altering news. To which you immediately had to add, now we know Exochorda is documented less. HA???? That is what you posted. The "Ha" is what cleared it all up for me. It is the combination of that news with yet another stab at the horse and to the people who defended her. To quote another german expression that is just plain" Bosshaftig" plain and simple. It speaks of a person who is not at all interested in proving a horse's provenace but is interested more in saying I TOLD YOU SO. That is not a true researchers goal, at least not one who has the intersest of the Horse at heart.
The only thing new in the revelation itself was the announcement that this was a grandson of a son of the person who presented that evidence. I never indicated that I question that person, what that statement does indicate is that I suspect your honesty in your reason in presenting that news. It is the motive that was and is Garbage. That's it plain and simple.
I have asked and have received an answer from the person who translated said Hujah for you and he has assured me he would help with my questions, right here on this forum. That is what a person interested in the horses would do. To go a step further since when is questioning a bad thing. You yourself have encouraged newcomers and everyone else to question. I suppose that when Hansi posts, that is then a blasphemy to question, to merely suggest waiting for further corroboration, that is what you take as a personal insult.
It too have contacts in the middle east, matter of fact some are rather close friends who of course still have relkatives in their countries of birth. These are Engineers I worked with for more than thirty years and have shared some interesting stories of their experiences with horses in their homelands. Syrian, a registered Engineer and field inspector, Another traffic Engineer who fled the Shah massacres in Iran, Egyptians who designed Highways and several Iraquis who fled Hussein. All were highly educated people some christian and some Muslim. All are respectful people, all sarae a respect for life and I hold them all to honorable men. In particular ,the Jordanian gentlemen still has relatives who still raise animals although most are professionals even in their home country. The Syrian gentleman is a city Arab, but has ties via marriage to the deeper desert. I have asked every one of them i still have contact with to see if they can shed a bit of light on this subject and to a man have received offers of help.
Reading the initial translation and then the second, one gets the idea that the translation itself can be read differently. I really do not care since we all know different people transalate differently, depending on personal experience. See the Bible for reference.
You accuse me of being disrespectful of honoarable Arab people?? Where did that get read? If advising for caution and asking questions is disrespect , well I just don't understand.
What is patenetly clear to me. It is perfectly OK for you to say anything you wish and a mere question to you brings forth references to my very reason for existence. WHO gives you that right????
My point is this, you did not prove ElDeeres provenance to clear his Egytian-ness, it has been accepted since time immemorial, you proved it for prersonal reasons. No one questioned him to begin with, so what exactly does posting what you posted prove??????

Where is the garbage there???
HLM
Gladly Cathy

On very few horses in the pedigrees of the SE do we actually have signed and swornto documentation from their tribes/breeders etc.
El Dere was always stated to have been a gift to King Fouad I, Egypt and delivered by a young man, who's name I did not know until recently.Then the document stated that by orders of the High Tribal sheikh Henry Faroun was delivering the stallion to the king in Egypt.

It was stated in the Hanan book that El deree was bought from some horse dealer. To correct this statement I continued research. Of course this statement was not well received in syria and actuall became an insult..

It was then over and over again suggested that less is known about El Dere than Exhochorda. the Document corrected this also., because we dont know were Exochorda was born and who the breder is, or where her parents went in 1920/1921.

I was told that actually some people in Germany were told to not breed from horses with El Deree in the pedigree, such as SAMEH, because he has a doubtful background, was no good, (El Deree)and sold to some horse dealer in Damascus or Aleppo. You do know what a horse dealer is, right? I assume "we dont know less on El deree than Exochorda" could have originated from the above statements. I spoke and corresponded with the Sedlitz Family In germany about all this years ago and they now have the answer. It is sad that Mr Seidlitz passed away before he could now enhance the truth about El Deree and all rumors are laid to rest.

Now all this has been stated many times and I trust it answer your questions.
Rumors have done damage in the past and anybody who can set such straight with bonafide evidence, should be commended, not attacked or insulted.

Enjoy

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Nadj al Nur
HANSI< HANSI please read the passage again in Dr. Nagel's book. He absolutely does NOT say that.
What he says is, and I quote page 146 for anyone who has the book
"ElDeree, a powerful grey stallion who was said to have been BROUGHT to Egypt from Syria by an Egyptian merchant." unquote.
This is exactly right, by your own admission. All you have done is to provide the name of that merchant, which is a good thing, but please do not ascribe words to Dr. Nagel that he did not write.I think you owe him an appology.
Cathy
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Hansi:
"Ray explained well how research, new eras can change many a conclusion of long ago. Interlects will have an open mind for it, because their intelligence would not allow them to do otherwise. Like the world is not flat, etc."

Well, this is very true. However, there has been no new information whatsoever presented about Mashaan here by either Hansi or Kelly so I don't see the relevance. In fact, much of the existing information which they referenced (and has been published for decades) was either reported inaccurately, partially omitted, misstated, and/or misinterpreted. I'm sorry that those who don't have the books which contain this data are unable to verify this; I realize that for them this becomes a "she said - she said" issue, which is unfortunate. However, I have given exact and complete references and, if interested, perhaps you may wish to save these. At some time there may be a way for you to gain access to this material, and if so, I believe many things will become quite clear. I feel that all that can be said pretty much has been said on this topic, and that to continue would only be viewed as argumentative -- and would be counter-productive to whatever clarity may have been achieved thus far.

The subject line of this thread is Mashaan. I am not going to address anything about *Exochorda here as it has been hard enough for many to follow this subject alone. I don't want to add to the confusion by going off on another tangent, but will be glad to address it on a separate thread if that is acceptable to the site owners. I was under the impression that people have forum members have heard enough about it, and that further debate was discouraged. I understood that readers were being encouraged to use the search function to access archived threads on the subject rather than continuing to rehash. However, since Hansi continues to bring the subject up and to harass this bloodline just about daily, perhaps I misunderstood. In the event that such a discussion is approved, I am readily available and willing to participate.

When I have time, I would like to provide more information on Dr. Branch in a separate thread for the sake of those who are interested, but don't have the research materials to confirm the extent of his influence at the RAS and his ultimate impact on the SE Arabian horse. For now, I would only say that to claim that he "has never been a person of consequence other than he was a director of the RAS" is so absurd that it is embarrassing. It is a fact that NO ONE participating in this discussion knew Branch personally, nor did they visit the RAS during his tenure there. Judith Forbis, however, has not only visited the Middle East very frequently over the past five decades, but also lived and worked there and clearly knows quite a lot about the culture and the history of the region. Her access to information on the ancestry of the Arabian horse in its origins was, and is, far-reaching. I would venture to say that she has likely spent more time there and has had more extensive and closer relationships with significant people involved with the evolution of the Egyptian Arabian horse than any living person of Western origins. Her depth of knowledge on this subject is remarkable, as anyone who has actually read her works would realize, and gratefully, she has shared it with the world. Now, Mrs. Forbis didn't personally know Branch either. She did, however, personally know and interviewed many who knew him quite well, and she has collected (and published) documentation in that regard. Apparently her opinion of the "consequence" of Dr. Branch's service to Egypt and the Arabian horse over his 35 year career there is quite contrary to Hansi's statements on the matter. Certainly no author would devote 9 pages of a very important book on the development of the Arabian horse in Egypt to a person of insignificant consequence, as Judith Forbis did in the case of Dr. Branch. I would also add that the significance of Dr. Branch is referenced in many, if not most, important literary works by many authors on the subject of Arabian horse breeding in Egypt spanning many decades.
Caryn Rogosky
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Hi All,

First off a disclaimer.... My post is not meant to offend anyone and it purely to gather information... So, please forgive any questions as I do not intend them to be inflamatory or confrontational...


Kimberly,

Your post was very informational and really to the heart of the matter... On that plain and simple level I can understand El Deree being left out of the line up as he was considered Inshass...Thank you for that post by the way.... Very informative...


But still on some level something doesn't sound quite right... I don't know if it has something to do with the change from SOF to SOFI or what and that is where my question lies... When did the clause "Under the auspices of Dr. Branch come into play... Was it the first organization SOF or the second SOFI?

In a matter of time frame it just seems to sway infavor of one and not in the other...You have Nabras at RAS before El Deree and Mashaan... El Deree and Mashaan being contemporary due to foaling records with El Deree due to foaling records being at RAS probably a year earlier... It just doesn't really make sense on that level that we can assume that Dr. Branch was involved with one horse and not the other, if they were there at the same time and we are told he was involved with Mashaan... The next question is that if El Deree was not considered RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch, but he produced offspring under the same time frame that Mashaan did why isn't Sid Abouhom considered a foundation horse as he was born at the RAS during the time of Dr. Branch's tenure and was used as a breeding stallion at RAS...

The next problem I have is that after all this is asserted then it is mentioned that El Deree doesn't qualify as a preservation horse as he is in nearly every SE pedigree and there in many cases multiple times... We need not worry about losing his bloodlines... From my understanding even SE should be considered preservation horses as the genepool daily narrows due to the current breeding practices... But it also leads me to believe that due to his prominence he was purposely excluded as then rarity would no longer apply to SO in general....Again not trying to stir things up but it seems a plausible scenerio...Especially during the 80's when these horses were going for a mint... Tracy
HLM
DEar Cathy

Indeed should I owe an apology if what you state is correct. I dont have the Hanan
book infront of me,never finished reading it, and now cant find it. I hope it is not lost, as I have lost books from my library in the past. But I guess I need a compas to find something in my office these days, although large, I need a larger one, eh..

However, Henry Faroun than was not a merchant at that time, but a young man still finishing education, I was told. He became a merchant lateron in his life, I was also told.

If you are correct, than I made a gross error by also listening to complaints and bore weight on it. Once I will look at the page you stated, after I find the book,
I most certainly will apologyze to Hans. You see, I am also human and make mistakes.

I appreciate your pointing this out to me and thank you.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Tracy

Sid abouhom (Nabeeh) foaled in 1936.

I really cant find anything putting Dr Branch on a pedistell. Seldom are directors of the EAO or previous RAS applauded and their work commended publicly in writing. I guess each one just follows another.Unless one knows them personally, it is hard to give particular credits.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Nadj al Nur
Boy oh boy, I really wish this old dinosaur of a computor would let me do the edit thing.
Hansi, how could a statement that Dr. Nagel NEVER MADE become an insult to people in Syria, unless YOU told it to them and they did not have the book to check on it's veracity. I think that if this is the case you really need to humbly beg pardon of Dr. Nagel.
Cathy
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Tracy:
"But still on some level something doesn't sound quite right... I don't know if it has something to do with the change from SOF to SOFI or what and that is where my question lies... When did the clause "Under the auspices of Dr. Branch come into play... Was it the first organization SOF or the second SOFI?"

Hi Tracy,
The definition of a SO Arabian horse which refers to the specific involvement of Dr. Banch was part of the charter of SOF, and it was adopted by SOFI. The founding philosophy of SOF (and SOFI) was (and is) based on the relative impact of 7 specific people, not on secific dates. Dr. Branch has always been identified as one of those people, according to the charters of both SOF and SOFI. Unlike the other 6, however, he was not functioning as a private breeder, but rather on behalf of the RAS. The way it is writen is meant to acknowledge this distinction.

What I believe has confused some people is not the official definition, but the various ways in which the selection of the SO horse has been described over the years. At different times "shorthand" versions were provided for the purpose of clarification as requested. I know that I have heard people recite these descriptions from time to time referring to them as the definition, but of course each time an attempt is made to clarify or describe something the wording will be a little different. Actually, this issue has recently come to my attention through a very fruitful discussion which I had with a member of this forum who took the time to pursue her questions with me in private email. Without her permission I don't want to mention her name, but I've been meaning to thank her for that. Until then I didn't entirely realize how or why the way the definiton is written may be confusing to some. I have brought this to the attention of the SOFI Board Of Directors who will be taking it under advisement shortly.

Quote Tracy:
"The next problem I have is that after all this is asserted then it is mentioned that El Deree doesn't qualify as a preservation horse as he is in nearly every SE pedigree and there in many cases multiple times..."

No, I believe you misread my post Tracy. Of course El Dere qualifies as a preservation horse, all SE Arabians qualify as preservation horses as they represent a very small percentile of the Arabian population. The same is true for all AK horses, and other sub-groups of bloodlines as well including those who do not fall within the parameters of AK. Please note that in my post I said that an outstanding preservation organization, the Pyramid Society, was already dedicated to the preservation of El Dere blood, as well as all other SE lines. Because his blood is carried so prolifically thoughout the SE population, there seems relatively little risk that within SE bloodlines this line would be lost, as it is being well preserved though many different SE sources. But good heavens, where might this blood be today if it weren't for the Pyramid Society? Without their dedicated efforts it may well have been lost, or greatly diminished over the years.

There are many ways and reasons to preserve bloodgroups, and in my opinion, any one of them which attempts to keep some sub-group or concentrated genepool avaialble for the purpose of reinfusion or compatible outcrossing (in the loose sense of the term), is very worthwhile so long as there is no attempt to discredit the authenticity or "purity" of any of the bloodlines outside of its parameters. SOFI By-laws explicitly prohibit this. SOFI is really a preservation group, within a preservation group (the PS), within a preservation group (AK) which completely respects and supports both the PS and AK...as preservation groups.
Caryn Rogosky
Caryn Rogosky
Quote Tracy:
"...why isn't Sid Abouhom considered a foundation horse as he was born at the RAS during the time of Dr. Branch's tenure and was used as a breeding stallion at RAS..."

I'm sorry Tracy, I missed this before. To answer your question, Sid Abouhom was not born at the RAS during Dr. Branch's tenure.
Caryn
2mntn
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ May 21 2007, 04:56 PM)
HANSI< HANSI please read the passage again in Dr. Nagel's book. He absolutely does NOT say that.
What he says is, and I quote page 146 for anyone who has the book
"ElDeree, a powerful grey stallion who was said to have been BROUGHT to Egypt from Syria by an Egyptian merchant." unquote.
This is exactly right, by your own admission. All you have done is to provide the name of that merchant, which is a good thing, but please do not ascribe words to Dr. Nagel that he did not write.I think you owe him an appology.
Cathy
*



Hi Cathy,

I can't find background on this book to tell me if it was written first in German and translated to English?

Either way, "merchant" sounds a lot like "dealer", or "trader" to me.

Regards,
Ray
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