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LMG
AHA's new magazine, "Modern Arabian Horse" dated June/July - 2007, has printed the following statistical data:

NEW REGISTRATIONS

YTD May 2007 Purebred..................................2,176
Half/Anglo ............................... 963

YTD May 2006 Purebred..................................2,493
Half/Anglo................................1,164

Percent decline.........................................................................
......15%


Now, given that some are not registering their Arabians, and some are not breeding the mares they do have, and given the statistics regarding the average age of the producing Arabian mres, is there a formulae by which we can make a reasonable calculation as to the date when Arabians in the US will become extinct?

LMG
BaileyArabians
sure.

plus or minus, not as long as I live.

which could be a range of 36 - 150 years depending on technological breakthroughs. I prefer to round my lifepspan to the sum of forever.

Kathy


QUOTE (LMG @ Jul 7 2007, 07:40 PM)
is there a formulae by which we can make a reasonable calculation as to the date when Arabians in the US will become extinct?

LMG
*
LMG
Kathy:

They won't allow one to breed Arabian Horses in Long Term Care Faciilities.
I know, I've checked.

LMG
BaileyArabians
I think it's mandatory in the south.

Kathy
Cheryl L
I'm moving more south, then. I just checked our long-term care facilities and they said NO!
Cheryl
Marilyn Lang
Why does this not surprise me? Hello out there in the Arabian breeding world? The reason registrations continue to decline is because the market place for Arabian horses has been on a downward spiral for the last ten years. I think the interesting statistic would be how many Arabian horse owners are breeding their mares? My guess would be less than 10%. The only viable market place for Arabian horses currently is the foreign market. My personal opinion is that all those who are in control of our parent organization need to have a reality check. The statistics in this thread are mind bogling.

To be quite honest, this thread makes me rather sick at my stomach.

Marilyn
LMG
It is depressing. I guess the upside is that in the South, people in long term care facilities can continue to breed horses. That cannot happen in California, because
the elderly are not allowed to hang around in long term care facilities for too long, as they do need us for building material, such as in gigantic malls and freeway overpasses. At one time, as the rumor goes, it was the thing to bury us and then have a little party afterwards, but today, the land is too valuable just to let one's great aunt take up all that real estate.

So when the youngsters of 58 and 59 years of age, are gone, here in California, that will probably be the end of it - Arabian horse breeding - that is.

I think I should mention this in another one of my e-mails to the President of AHA.

LMG
Aimbri
Well, ladies, I am an RN and an currently working in a Long Term Care Facility. Maybe I should start a trend, open my OWN facility, combine it with my SE breeding facility, and invite all of you aging Americans here to the Canadian Prairies, where real estate is still almost affordable!

On a different note, I am pleased to say that my youngest daughter has just turned 23. Many years ago, she went with me to Thistlewood. Tom McNair took a great liking to her and took her under his wing. He let her handle *Sakr+++, he gave her riding lessons on Tammen. She helped the staff wash Ibn Morafic+++, Shamruk++ and Rofann. She exercised Gamal Al Arab+++, she fell in love with Ziba Jalisa (Later a National Champion Cutting Horse) when she was a youngster, and stood pining at her stall, BEGGING me to buy her, and on and on and on! My daughter was 10 or 11 at the time. Young enough to have a BALL with it all, and hopefully old enough to remember it till she is an OLD woman herself!

A few years later, she went to the EE. Saw El Gohara+/ win yet another performance pyramid, and proudly announce that WE had his brother! She fell in love with Imperial Baarez, admired Farid Nile Moon, and a host of others. She met Judy Forbis, and had some of her books autographed.

In short, she was THERE, and I hope the memory and the realization of what she was a small part of, stays with her forever. Her first Regional level showhorse was a Gleannloch bred stallion! Hopefully she will draw upon those memories when she decides what she is going to do with HER breeding program, and I hope that she, and thousands of others like her all over the world, will take up the torch and carry on, even if it is on a much smaller scale than all of us.

(And hopefully SHE will be looking after all of US in the Care Home!) LOL

Jeannette
HLM
Good morning everybody

I get calls, e-mails with questions "what can we do to revieve, put things back on track, stop the bickering and make it a go again".

My answer is lets go back to basics. Lets look at the past what put the SE on the map originally. Here are some of the basics the breeders/owner made:
(when I sayd "We" it refers to all):

1) We hardly ever body clipped or used any make-up other than a bit
of baby oil around the nose. We never used any artificial means

2) We showed by and large barefoot in halter classes.

3) Halter horses went at the same show into mutiple performance classes
showing the public the versility of the Arabian Horse.

4) We stuck together like glue, helped each other,took advice from each
other and bred horses by natural service.

5) Most all breeder/owners showed the horses themselves at halter and
under saddle. Some had trainers, who showed but the owners still went
into the ring as well

6) We taught the young ones, gave open houses and seminars without
charging a penny.

7) We created the Pyramid Society ,had it under solid unbiast
leadership, promoting ALL Ses.

8) We started defeating some of the best Non-SEs on a pretty consistant
basis, at halter and in just about all performance divisions.

9) combined, we had about 40-60 SES competing in the USA/Canada
against thousands of Non_Ses.

10) We went into flat racing and some endurance racins and again made
an impact with many wins.

11) We promoted and sold offspring into reliable horseman hands, meaning
to carry on under Saddle and at halter.

12) And then we made a mistake of selling to people who took advantage
of the success and turned all into a dollar bill producing affair.
That's when it started falling apart.

Our only hope might be that the Pyramid Society promoted performance classes of all divisions, make its affordable to our small breeder/owners to enter
(we all once were small breeders/owners) . show the public the qualities of the SE/Asil Arabian Horse, and give seminars easily understood, hand on works, no-nonense education. Have workshops to educate our young ones,etc.
It is a deadly mistake in my opinion to alow cartells,created in the past few years
exist and rise, which could extinct the SE Arabians as a "Horse" a "Doing horse" a" beautiful functional horse".

If the SEs combined climbed to international fame at the start with just so few horses,than a way can be found to do it again.Gleannloch Farms,Babson and many oldtimers promoted unselfishly, respected each other and did not chose by who is who, but by what a person can do, give and share, the latter not to just a selected few.

It breaks my heart to realize and see what has transpired, how horses are graded by who is who owns them, when many of the who is who have little knowledge of what constitutes a functional horse, never been on top of one and no interest to even remember how it all got started and why.

May be some of you have ideas, which can be adopted to turn this ship around, away from the close-up cliffs. Only by working together can we be able to do it.
We all should be looking at other Arabian bloodlines to ascertain what the competition is doing, rather than cutting them down, or totally overlooking them.
That is a dealy error. And thinking that all ours are the best, rather to think that it is the best which defeats the rest. That is only common sense for any product in this world.

So, what do you all think and say. And please no more attacks and bickering.
It harms, it wont help.Lets be more realistic, please.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ralph
How do these registration numbers compare against the registration numbers of other breeds? The Arabian breed is not the only horse breed sufferring a decline in registration? I read in Equus magazine that even the American Paint Horse, which had been enjoying double digit growth percentages, even suffered a decline. All equine activities compete for the disposable income of people looking for a recreational activity. Some people choose boats, some people choose bicycling and some people choose iPods. With the people who decide to pursue horses as a recreational outlet, I find it hard to believe that the wide choice of horse breeds, all competing for that person, will not create an effect similar to like like, voting in an election...some people say that the run for USA President between Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani will be a very close race, with Clinton emerging the victor. However, if NYC mayor, Michael Bloomberg runs for president, as an independent candidate (a third party), he will split the votes between Clinton and Giuliani, maybe causing a dead heat. Maybe a bad example for horses but maybe that's what we see here, a split vote for the Arabian breed, as less and less people are choosing horses for recreation (maybe it is too expensive for the average Joe?) and the ones who do choose (who can afford it), have an overwhelming choice between the breeds, as to which horse is best suited for their goals. smile.gif
Nadj al Nur
Good point Ralph, and possibly, if they are doing their research, they are looking at things like, which breed is less expensive to register, and /or to show etc., in which case the Arabian loses out.
Cathy
LMG
When I first starting reading this Forum, there was quite a bit of type dedicated to the pro and con of preservation breeding.

Now, having looked at the stats on the breeding of the horses in the Nationals Shows, (primarily one or two breeders), the Pyramid Society EE, (a very concentrated group of horses in regard of bloodlines) and the AHA statistics regarding the Year to Date Registrations, one must come to the conclusion that we are all preservation breeders at this point.

Now, of course there are breeders out there with other lines who rarely come to any show, such as the many of the Al Khamsa breeders, some of the CMK breeders and others who just ride their horses, but apparently they are also not
replacing their stock.

Finally, one wonders what the average age of the breeder of Arabian Horses is, today. That definitely is going to have an impact when there are either no children interested in carrying on a program, or even an a group who admires a program, and we, who have been around long enough, can name breeder after breeder whose program disappeared after their death into the next best idea.

Obviously there is a group, although limited in my mind as to future sales, except to each other and that is those who are primarilly interested in halter horses, but the harder part is getting performance back into the position it once held, because that is where we are going to bring in younger people who are or want to be athletes in the equine world. That must be the future for these horses or they may not have any future at all, as the majority of young people cannot afford a $35,000 halter horse, nor do many of them find it very interesting. (I know someone is going to have a problem with this, but it is an opinion, not a personal attack - so get over it!)

Take a look at some of the Auction Results (lots of Saddlebreds and Part Arab/Saddlebreds going through for not a lot of bucks) and I do mean the ones in which the horses are placed before the public and not a pre-established group to get an idea of where the market may be.

Since the AHA and others are stuck in futurities and high point horses in which many times the same owners win over and over again (and did so in the past)
this is a problem which must be solved at the breeder/owner level if it is to be solved at all and that is the creation of interest in this horses for the average owner and an opportunity for them to participate.

We have discussed this over and over and perhaps it is time for more than just a forum discussion, perhaps it is time for a meeting or meetings to be set in different areas to brain storm and not leave it to delegates who might not have the ear of the AHA.

LMG
HLM
Dear Lorri

I agree with you so much. We have to try to bring back "Horsemanship".How often did I say our young ones grduating from their wooden rocking horse want to ride the "real thing". Most all other breeds facilitate such. But we dont do much about it I think.And this is a very bad mistake.

Also I noticed that at particular seminars, open house particular people are invited, usually those with a lot of mony to spend. they are still talked into tax shelters,etc.
and think that a $ 40,000 weanling is a bargain. that's INSANE.

If these open houses, seminars would bring in the pee-wees,the 7-12 age group,
provide them with horses to try, and ride right there and then, have their parents
be present to watch the enjoyment, we would be a step ahead. But it appears that most of them want to market their own product, -nothing wrong with it, provided it does not take priority over everything.

And you are aslo correct, that that label groups do not help. It would be wonderful if for instance the SOFIS would hold a seminar, having many of their horses shown under saddle, having the kids get up on them- even if they have to be led, and try them out. The same goes for various Al Khamsa breeder and MOST CERTAINLY for the high percentage of SE breeders. If these label groups would enter a team at the Ee endurance ride, even if it were just a ten miler, get a team of kids together and have them ride, it would be a tremendous impact.
It might be wise to watch the RFD channel and see how those Pee-wees-4-7age already pole bend, loving it, and so does the public.Or enter some simple trail rides and enjoy it.

It is too bad that some of us are too old or handicapped to jump in and help, other than with advice or sponsoring. However, like all other sports, the equine sports willnever die out, too many people love horses and love riding or driving.It is just a matter of what breed they are introduced, see in action, to make a decision.

Ralph mentioned expenses. All sports are expensive, so is the equipment.
It is true not everybody can afford it, but that was there at any prior times.
But ways can be found to make it affordable to average incomes I feel. Not everybody can send a horse out to train and spent between $ 12-15,000 per year
and might be ending up with a $ 5,000 sales horse. Our people can be trained to do their own.that's often the fun of it.
Look what Susan Mayo does, how she promoted the Arabian horses and how her clients love it and find it affordable.Sharon does the same and so do many others.
And these are very knowledgable horse folks.

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Aimbri
The POINT that I was trying to make with my lengthy post last night, was that WE as breeders are an aging group. Let's be honest here. Almost everyone who posted on this thread is over 50! Hansi is over 75! Lorriee, Cathy and myself are over 50! Sad, but true!

What HAS to happen, all joking aside about breeding in care homes and so on, is that we MUST get the next generation interested in riding, showing, and breeding these magnificent animals, or it WILL DIE WITH ALL OF US! We have to interest the kids, the teens and the young adults. To do that, we have to make it interesting, fun and AFFORDABLE. HOW can we do that, when we are all currently raising horses that cost MORE to get to riding age, even without saddle training yet, than we could POSSIBLY sell them for?

In another thread that I started several weeks ago, called "Where have all the breeders gone", we came up with some exceptionally wonderful things that we could all do to try to get this on-track again. Someone could have taped some of the seminars from the EE. Did they? Hansi had a FABULOUS opportunity to have a clinic or seminar and teach as she always SAYS that she loves to do, and that she SAYS she WILL do at no charge! Did she? I understand that it was a bit of a short notice to get things arranged for THIS year. How about next year?

I have TRIED to help out, by starting a thread called "Training, Riding and Showing on a budget", sharing my experiences of trying to train WITHOUT the expense of a trainer, by going to some LOCAL ALL-BREED clinics and seminars. I shared my experiences, the expenses, and my plans. There was little if any response from anyone under 50! (Except for Cheryl of course, who is wonderfully supportive of everything that we try to do!)

I have tried to promote the SE and ES horses in my local and surrouding areas by sponsoring an award for the Top Egyptian Horse. This year I am offering not only the plaques, but also a small gift of a Gift Certificate to the local Tack Shop (who also supports out show) to try to encourage the youngsters.

My neice rides a QH. But then, riding any breed is great! She graduated from high school last weekend. For her graduation gift, I gave her a Gift Certificate from a Tack Store, to try to encourage her to stay interested in riding and showing her horse. She was thrilled with it.

I have taught 4-H, I have taught at the local "Learn to Ride" program (all on a volunteer basis). I AM NOT wanting any praise here AT ALL, just wanting to let you all know what I have TRIED to do to help out, and to try to encourage other aging breeders (and yes, we are ALL aging) to try to do the same in their own local areas.

But, I still contend that the BEST thing that I could have done was to expose my horse-crazy daughter to some of the things that she has been able to be involved with, encoraged and supported her in MOST of her decisions, while also, unfortunately, having to encourage her to not "get in over her head", so that she can still ride, train and show, and still afford to pay the mortgage and eat at the same time.

If ANYONE has any fruitful suggestions, PLEASE OFFER THEM! I am here, and am willing to help AT ANY TIME.

Jeannette
nina c K
Hi Jeannette,

I'm from Germany, but I think the situation is comparable. So
maybe we can get the average age of this topic down a bit smile.gif
I'm 21, and very interested in Arabian Horses, as is my family is. I can say for Germany that there are so many helping hands - longtime breeders who welcome young people to learn about their horses and share their knowledge and experience... I must say that the support you can get if you aks for it is very strong. It's hard to say why less people are interested in horses, but I think that this is not only concerning Arabians. I know of course other "young" people, warmbloodriders merely, and I can say that their number is going down as well. The riding clubs here all claim that the youth is dying out - the kids may take a riding lesson from time to time but then, they have many other interests, and riding is just one among them. And when they become older, they want to be succesful, work on their carreer - rather than in the barn. And I'm living in a rural countryside!

What I would want to change about the SEs - I would like to put less emphazis on the shows. Really, if you are not getting used to it step by step, it seems very strange to see adults behaving this way. It's not only the fact that horses wear make up... it's mainly the surrounding, how serious everybody takes the thing, that is - seen from an objectiv point of view - a bit ridiculous compared to sport horses and their riders, who show a performance. Thinking about it, this attitude of wanting to be the best and having the most beautiful horse, really it not attracting to a newcomer. I have been to dog shows as well - it's the same thing, but people are not stressed there, the dogs are not stressed, nobody is under pressure. It's a pleasure to be there for everyone, not just for the winner. But now, how change this? There is too much money involved at the big shows. There should be more things we do together, small shows or riding competitions, that are "just for fun". That would be great.

Nina
LMG
I do know that it was a committee that drew up the plans to construct the camel, and there is a vicious rumor that is also true about the elephant. however, perhaps the only thing to do is to try to organize, if even only locally, small groups to study what is working in their area among other types of horse activities and bring these ideas forward to a larger group which will work outside and without the blessings of the AHA, which unfortunately seems to be determined to make the same mistakes that it's predecessors made - primarily which was to play court fool to whichever group had the real or imagined power of the purse.

Most people have too much going on in their lives to take the time to spend it for the future in which they may not have any part, but if it was only for going to one or two local (and not necessarily Arabian event) events during the horse activitly year, and report back whether this or that worked. We may also need to (don't groan) get involved in a local club, to try and use this as a platform to encourage other events.

Here in Central California, Sheila Varian gave notice of a Cow Girl's Hall of Fame
working horse event which will take place in August on a ranch here in the rock and roll area of California (near the major fault - Parkfield) - this is something that will give non-Arabian Horse owning people to see that which Arabian Horses Can do.

We need to know about more of these types of events and to support them with our horses, if we can at all do so. We also need to encourage riding, and perhaps mentor young riders - I am trying to teach one of my horses to kneel long enough to let me get into the saddle.

I do thank Ambiri for thinking that I'lm even in her decade -

LMG
Robert 1
QUOTE (Ralph @ Jul 8 2007, 04:13 PM)
How do these registration numbers compare against the registration numbers of other breeds? The Arabian breed is not the only horse breed sufferring a decline in registration? I read in Equus magazine that even the American Paint Horse, which had been enjoying double digit growth percentages, even suffered a decline.  All equine activities compete for the disposable income of people looking for a recreational activity. Some people choose boats, some people choose bicycling and some people choose iPods. With the people who decide to pursue horses as a recreational outlet, I find it hard to believe that the wide choice of horse breeds, all competing for that person, will not create an effect similar to like like, voting in an election...some people say that the run for USA President between Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani will be a very close race, with Clinton emerging the victor. However, if NYC mayor, Michael Bloomberg runs for president, as an independent candidate (a third party), he will split the votes between Clinton and Giuliani, maybe causing a dead heat. Maybe a bad example for horses but maybe that's what we see here,  a split vote for the Arabian breed, as less and less people are choosing horses for recreation (maybe it is too expensive for the average Joe?) and the ones who do choose (who can afford it), have an overwhelming choice between the breeds, as to which horse is best suited for their goals.  smile.gif
*

EXCELLENT POST RALPH AND YOUR COMPARISONS AND EXAMPLES HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. biggrin.gif wink.gif
WHEN THE ARABIAN HORSE WAS BIG BACK EVEN INTO THE SIXTIES THEY WERE NOT A CHEAP HORSE TO BUY AND THEN MOST OTHER BREEDS WERE NOT IN THE DEMAND THAT THEY ARE NOW.
HORSE PEOPLE SAW HOW THE ARABIAN HORSE WAS BECOMING VERY SUCCESSFUL AND OTHER BREEDS BEGAN TO GET LAUNCHED INTO THE ARENA OF BUYING AND SHOWING AND BREEDING HORSES FOR A POSSIBLE PROFIT, THIS CAUSED OVER THE YEARS A SLOW CHANGE AND IT JUST NOW SEEMS TO BE FELT AS THE ARABIAN STILL COMANDS A FAIR MARKET PRICE ALONG WITH OTHER BREEDS BEING IN THE RACE FOR RECREATION, SO IT IS NATURAL FOR IT TO CAUSE A SMALL DECLINE IN ARABIAN REGISTRATION OF NEW FOALS, AS THIS WILL ALSO CAUSE A SMALL RISE IN OTHER NOW POPULAR BREEDS BUT, THIS CERTAINLY DOESN'T MEAN THE SKY IS FALLING IN ONCE AGAIN, OR THAT THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE ARABIAN HORSE WILL COME IN ANYONES LIFE TIME OR FOR THE THE NEXT TEN GENERATIONS TO COME laugh.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif wink.gif

ROBERT,
ECHO HILL ARABIANS
heidip
Make room at the home, I'm tipping 50......... and all my mares are open this year.
Kimberli Nelson
I see this as an adjustment phase. When the registrations reached some 30,000 plus horses for a few years, the prices were high and quality was somewhat low. This was the day of breed ALL mares and get big dollars . You had two types of horses, breeding stock and investment horses. These same horses that are now causing our horses to have an average age between 18 to 20 years old.

When these horses are gone (my guess, in another 10 years) the market will once again change where the quality Arabian horse will be the illusive creature that is hard to find and harder to buy. They will be rare once again. It is up to our breeders today to produce the very best HORSES we can and then make sure they are good Arabians as well.

People today, I am talking the majority of horses owner of ALL breeds, are looking for a good riding horse. Very few people can afford the high dollar horse that can only stand around and be loved and fed. These spots are being taken up by rescue horses and old doing horses that need a home and they are generally free of charge if you are just willing to take them.

The Arabian horse needs a new image, the one we all know and love and that is a great family companion. The days of the crazy show horses needs to end because we have way too many horses needing homes and very few true horsemen that can handle the aggression of some of these horses.

The average person today was not raised on a farm or ranch, they do not know how to train or even care for horses for the most part. They are not stupid and can learn but where do they go? How do they find the help they need? As breeders we need to hold ourselves to a much higher standard both in producing quality and selling horses with integrity, honesty and be willing to mentor those we sell to. Teach them to be successful breeders if that is their desire and encourage them to use the horses to its fullest. These horses have a lot to offer, don't under-sell their ability. Show them how easy it is to train their own horses, help them learn about conformation and then breed type. Show them what they can do for themselves. Mentor, Mentor, Mentor... That should be our goal and should be high on our priority list.

I would much rather see 2500 high quality Arabians born each year than 30,000 average Arabians born.

Our chosen breed has been the breed used over the century's to improve other breeds, yet today the perceived quality is so low that our stallions stand only to our own mares on farm and not many to the improvement of other breeds. Many of our mares are being bred to stallions of other breeds, even our SE mares, and they are producing quality doing horses. I have seem them go to Frisians, Trakerners, Thoroughbreds and Quarter horsesMany are being bred for color by breeding them to paint or creamellos and perlinos.... And the best part is that these breeders tell me that is is the other breed that is causing the quality! To me, this type of breeding will be the downfall of the breed as a whole. Use the stallions to improve, not the mares. A mare can only have maybe 7 to 10 foals in a lifetime. Yet we allow this cross to be registered. Is there any thoughts about our future in this regard? Should we allow our breed registry to encourage the use and registration of part-breds out of Purebred mares? What are we thinking? unsure.gif
LMG
Nina:

It is very nice to hear the opinion of a young person. And, you are probably correct in that there are so many other activities for young people to participate in that horses, not only being expensive, but dangerous to a beginner, are not too high on the list of things to do.

And, it also interesting to hear your opinion of what I've also heard from young people about the "behavior" of older people at horse shows. We have always had this to some degree, but , in my opinion it has gotten worse as we have fewer and fewer people riding or even handling their horses.

Many years ago, people at dog shows were not as well mannered as they appear to be today. Hopefully, there will be some evolution in horse shows.

Thank you for your opinion - I hope you stay interested in the Arabian Horse for a good long while, as our breed does need enthusiasts, and particularly young ones.

LMG
Nadj al Nur
Kimberli, I'm with ya. I'm all for using the stallions on other breeds, but it makes me nuts when I see quality SE mares being bred to other breeds.......
Cathy
LMG
Kimberli: I'm in such agreement with you, regarding using the mares for outcross stallions. How can a breed organization promote such an idea and then state they are representing the purebred breeders and owners? Should there not be a half-Arabian organization to do that?

Back in the 1960's when I was being instructed in horsemanship, my instructors were never in favor of Arabians, so we haven't changed a great deal, and the horse of choice was the thoroughbred or the quarter horse - and the quarter horse was the horse of choice for most trail and recreational riders. I do believe that Western Horseman was a major quarterhorse trade magazine and for years I received the thoroughbred industry magazine. So there was a bit more choice about horses to own than it may have appeared.

If one bought an Arabian, in those days and in those circles, it was somewhat akin to having run off to get married to some kid in a rock and roll band - you were advised that the cheap colt, Fadjur wouldn't go anywhere and that the boy would never succeed, even if the kid's name was Ringo or Paul or some such.

LMG
HorsesandKitties
Hello All this wil be a long post.

I am in the middle of that 21-50 group and I think I am done after the venom I got this morning I don't think it is worth it and I don't need to put my time, money and effort into these horses anymore. I can take my Dressage horse and go have fun and not care if the SE's die

I will never be able to win in the showring (If I cannot afford a 1,000.00 a month trainer I'm not going to win PERIOD) Sorry folks they may throw a bone out there to the pheasants every once in awhile, but after the Event this year I have truely learned my lesson from watching classes.

Here is the truely SAD SAD THING. THE BLOODLINES ARE DYING OUT FOLKS and unless people bred some of the rarer stuff soon. IT WILL BE GONE.

The Arabian breed is only going to register about 7500 horses this year. I want anyone who has the datasource to go do a search. Pick any Stallion that was popular 5-7 years ago. The go to his get and look at how many have actually been bred. I bet its less than 10%. Yes, there are some that have been bred on heavily, but the majority have not.

We have 1 of the only SE El hilal mares left that can possibly be bred also one of the only 2 Malik daughters lin the US left and a German El hilal. You know what we had quit breeding them and now these mares only have 2-3 foals to carry on their lines and they were at least bred at one time.

I am in the middle of that 21-50 group and I think I am done after the venom I got this morning I don't think it is worth it and I don't need to put my time, money and effort into these horses anymore. I can take my Dressage horse and go have fun and not care if the SE's or the smaller bloodlines die out anymore. Let the breeders who sit and preach all the high values and its all for the horses save them. They obviously do not need the money, because they are so against anyone making any money.
Kimberli Nelson
HorsesandKitties,

BS... (I am sure you know what that means)There are many people out there JUST LIKE YOU. We have taken the venom from those who feel they are in power but remember, they are the bully's. Just hit back and see what happens. The show ring is NOT the standard a true breeder lives buy. AND I have been threatened by the best of them for my values.

You have your values and if you are in the spirit, they will attack you, pure and simple. Hang in there, virtue always wins in the end.

P.S. PLEASE breed that El Hilal daughter of yours.... It will be worth the effort in a few years.
HLM
Yes Jeanatte it was a short notice and I was only there a few days.
Definitely will I be available FREE OF CHARGE for such a seminar or clinic and may be someone can help to arrange it.I am not good at that, have so little time, have a number of trips scheduled out of the country, etc.etc. but we can arrange a time and place. Of course the EE would be grat, there are areas we can do it
well. And may be some of you will assist. Sure would be nice if a bunch of kids would be there to join, listen and learn, eh. I amnot an expert in Western, have won championships in it even rode at the US Nationals in it, but that was just because I dont fall of the horse that easily (used to), ha.

But I can teach the ground work, proper longing, learning the horses language,etc.etc.etc. Actually from the womb to the Tomb. So if someone of you wants to get the ball rolling, I am game.

It has to be one I can drive to, no more than 800 miles from this farm, which I can handle in one day, provided it can be done from sunrise to sunset because of my eyes and of course my tender age, and it is getting tender, ha.

Let me know
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Kimberli Nelson
Hansi, if you will be in Arizona after the Institue weekend next year, I will have a clinic here at my farm for you. You can choose the date and the subject.... PLUS you could even stay here with me. It would be so much fun and I am sure there would be many people that would attend.
Robert 1
laugh.gif
QUOTE (LMG @ Jul 8 2007, 09:17 PM)
Kimberli:   I'm in such agreement with you, regarding using the mares for outcross stallions.  How can a breed organization promote such an idea and then state they are representing the purebred breeders and owners?  Should there not be a half-Arabian organization to do that?

Back in the 1960's when I was being instructed in horsemanship, my instructors were never in favor of Arabians, so we haven't changed a great deal, and the horse of choice was the thoroughbred or the quarter horse - and the quarter horse was the horse of choice for most trail and recreational riders.  I do believe that Western Horseman was a major quarterhorse trade magazine and for years I received the thoroughbred industry magazine.   So there was a bit more choice about horses to own than it may have appeared.

If one bought an Arabian, in those days and in those circles, it was somewhat akin to having run off to get married to some kid in a rock and roll band - you were advised that the cheap colt, Fadjur wouldn't go anywhere and that the boy would never succeed, even if the kid's name was Ringo or Paul or some such.

LMG
*


In the sixties,
The horses of choice weren't REGISTERED Quarter Horses or REGISTERED Thoroughbred, 99 and 44 one hundreds percent  laugh.gif were Grade Horses, if they had some resemblence to a Thoroughbred  or had a few drops of that blood they were referred to as such, same goes for the Quarter horse, I was around riding stables and riding instructors at the arenas most of my life and I never saw or heard anyone say that their horse was a registered horse, I may have had one of the few Registered horses and he was Arabian, and I had to sell two of my very best riding horses and there saddles to get half the money to buy my first registered Arabian colt, wink.gif  so it would seems there is a bit of a difference laugh.gif  laugh.gif
As for the beautifful dynamic FADUR many horse lovers drooled over him the same as the world did over one of the most prolific song writers by the name of John and his group, who turned out to be the Beatles laugh.gif  laugh.gif  wink.gif  biggrin.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
HLM
Dear Kimberly

thank you so much for your kind invitation. But I cant accept it yet, because I have to hurry back, to get the six horses for the uAE ready for export. It cuts me out 30 days before too, because 30 days are the quarantine time and there is so much involved, so much paper work, etc.etc. Actually I am hoping that I can come at all.
The only difference would make it, if we can either ship before or later.
I will know soon and let you know.
If I can come, do I need to bring my boxing gloves or do you have a two by four haendi? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif . I know I wont grab throats, ha biggrin.gif
(others, please dont attack, its my unoredoxed sense of humor)

Hugs
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Kimberli Nelson
Hansi, after 30 some odd years with SE Arabians I have both boxing gloves and two x fours! You are welcome to both. Really, I would be terribly dissapointed if you are not able to come next year. It is so important to all preservation breeders to show a solidarity withing the groups. And without education and more education from the old timers, what do we have left????

Please try to schedule the exports for a later date.
Echo1
LMG,
Statistics can be manipulated. biggrin.gif

Let's not forget that AHA said the same thing a few years ago in the middle of the year only to end up having an increase in foal registrations for the end of 2005 which I believe was an amnesty year. Still, I don't see where it would be a banner year.

I don't even know if everyone uses AHA anymore if the horses are destined for export. The only reason anyone would use AHA is for showing purposes since they do not participate with WAHO.

I do love performance horses, but keep in mind there is no incentive for being a performance breeder. The expenses far outweigh what the horses sell for. A performance horse isn't even a performance horse until he is at least 4 years old. Most are older. Otherwise they are all just known as 'prospects'.
Why even register if a colt is only going to be gelded or sold for $500?

But here's an important tip you missed. If you go to look at the 'datasource' look up how many mares are registered each year, and then go look up how many geldings and stallions (combined) are registered you will see that there are colts who are never registered. wink.gif
It would be nice to be a breeder and be assured that there are always more fillies born year after year than there are colts. Usually mother nature works differently, but like you say there are no absolutes.


Seems the last decade shows that there are more fillies born each year than colts? Interesting, don't you think? More likely colts aren't being registered because they are being gelded or sold without papers.

Seems to me that the problem isn't with the 'halter' horses or them being expensive as you portray, actually SE horses make up 10% of the purebred population in the US, which shows growth over the last two decades. I could remember when SE accounted for only 2% of the purebred population. The problem is in breeding horses who can't sell or have a low value which makes registrations not such a financially feasible idea especially on a colt.

All you have to do is look at the shape of the performance shows and the lack of participation in performance classes. It's a shame that these geldings and colts aren't being trained to ride and shown and registered.
Kimberli Nelson
“All you have to do is look at the shape of the performance shows and the lack of participation in performance classes.”

I know I am only taking this one statement out of your entire post but I would like to address this.

One only needs to go to the other breed shows and open breed shows to see that the majority of horses there are performance horses and not halter horses. There may be one or two classes(if that many) for halter and then we will spend the rest of the day and late into the night on all different types of performance. Many of these horses are Arabians. You won't see them at All Arabian shows, you will see them at open breed shows.

There are kids to oldies riding their horses and many of those horses sell for a pretty penny. The other breed registries are working hard to promote geldings and performance, not breeding and not halter.

I think our registry could do both, promote both Performance and Halter. They could educate about conformation and training. They could give seminars all over the country for a small fee, encourage small breeders to participate and take these horses to the next level.

When the opinion of the general public is one of “Crazy Arab” we all lose.
LMG
I cannot speak for the other shows, but if one is in Paso Robles, California, there will be two shows, which will be strictly performance. I don't recall which is which, but one is a Women's Cutting or Reining show and the other similar show in cutting or reining. Both are anticipated by this area, with eager anticipation, not only by the various hotels, restaurants and other venuess, but the estimated amount of money, expected to be brought to Paso Robles and its Environs is rather amazing.

The last one I attended, which was just a small cutting event, last one day, had everyone in the saddle, including little kids. And my little companion in the stands, who gave running commentary on her mother's performance was a twelve or fourteen year old, who was also junior cutter.

At the last Equine Extravaganza or whatever they call it, there were lots of people in the stands with all kinds of horses, that I spoke to, but few told me that they had an Arabian.

I do remember the Arabian Horse Fair in Reno, years ago, and that had a lot of visitors - Sheila, among others gave training demonstrations and the stands were packed. So what happened?

Our local Arabian Horse Organization is hanging on by a thread due to lack of members and funds. It is my understanding that the cost of a show for Arabians is prohibitive and therefore it is looking at other activities for the members to continue to be involved.

I apologize to those who are more aware of the facts of the TB and Quarter Horse Industry than I during the period, discussed. However, Captain De Nemethy ,who was the then Captain of the Three Day Event Team for the USET, told me, when I was in New Jersey that he was getting some of his horses, including one he showed me, from the West Coast, including from a well known trainer, at that time, by the name of Jimmy Williams. This horse was a Registered Quarter primarily of the running horse type. Of course these horses were either gifted or loaned to the USET at the time.

But, II yield to those with more knowledge.

LMG
Nadj al Nur
Lorriee, our local club (of which I was president for six years) is also just hanging on by a thread. There has not been a class A show here for quite a few years, as you say, because the cost is prohibitive, and there is hardly anyone showing anymore, also because of cost. The club does have a lot of seminars, clinics etc., but has had to open them to all breeds to make even those pay for themselves.
It may be somewhat different in this area because of the huge terrritory that this club covers (about 500 X 700 miles) and the logistics of people getting to things can be mind boggling, especially in winter, but it seems that people just have no interest in the show scene. They want to ride, and learn things but not to show, and because of this, will not join an organization that promotes only showing. They get NOTHING from it. Can't say I blame them.........
Cathy
Tous crins
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 9 2007, 08:08 AM)
but it seems that people just have no interest in the show scene. They want to ride, and learn things but not to show, and because of this, will not join an organization that promotes only showing. They get NOTHING from it. Can't say I blame them.........
Cathy
*



Count me in, this is what it's all about. My husband is really starting to enjoy riding (on 20 y old Davenport mare). We spent a wonderful day in the cooler temperatures at higher elevation (picture at 6565ft - Vincent Gap, Angeles N Forest). His mare is not conditioned but did very well barefoot on very rocky terrain, about 7 mile ride - may be 2000ft climb (we went very slow). The bay mare is 16 and 10 m pregnant.

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment

PS. forgot to say that I love Shadow (bay mare) so much that I rebred her hoping for a filly. I want to "preserve her" as she is the best.
Sharabia
The positive aspect from AHA (by the way, no egg throwing at me yet until after reading my entire post, deal?), is that there definitely has been an increase in prize money in certain events at Scottsdale. Money is definitely not all that matters, however I am confident many will agree that at least with the payouts offered, the futurities, at Scottsdale there is an opportunity to get some money back. This is also getting the attention of QH reiner trainers. I also have to hand it to the Sask. Arab club for adding Working Cow horse to their shows and introducing more clinics on this. They deserve a pat on the back for their example of taking the bull by the horns to demonstrate action instead of pounding any idea into the ground before it is tried...

With all this said, one of the reasons I personally am not sold on attending AHA sanctioned shows is the "take, take, take" mentality with money equalling no prize money, in general. Why bother when you can go to an open all breed show and at least have a shot at winning some cash back, a saddle, a lease on a trailer, or so on - things that attract those who are interested in performance horses. Or, a show like Scottsdale. Or the Las Vegas show, if only for greater exposure and "advertising" in a sense. Personally, I sure hope Las Vegas keeps the Reining classes.

On the Open horse world:

The Greatest Canadian Ranch Horse competition prize money has gone up again this year, from $5,000.00 for first to $6,500.00 not to forget to mention the vast exposure and networking that results.

The Sask. Barrel Racing (SBRA) finals to be held in August has, and I quote the ad, "$5,000.00 added in the open; $3,000.00 in the youth; Saddles, Prize Money and awards..." Please note the bolding of "added", as I am not sure how much money was there already. After watching an SBRA competition last week, noting many Appaloosa's running, watching the riders, and having a potential racing mentor right under my nose through my very close friend who has won a few SBRA saddles in her day - well I am pretty sure that the tall SE mare I have in my pasture, who I am not ashamed to say, if not for her overall type and Liberty performances, looks similiar to an Appendix QH (which is a QH with Thoroughbred lines incorporated) complete with that brand on her hind quarter - which I'll call a disguise to blend in with QHs and Apps. - could run a few patterns next year if I do more than toy with the idea. The only problem is while standing relaxed, her head always gives her away regarding what breed she is.

Oh, and then there is the Sask. Reining Jackpot, also advertising "added money". Think we'll go see that event and ask more questions there too.

My point? Perhaps a person has to practice at the Open events that interest them, possibly regain some cash for the addiction, while also attending selected shows that tickle your fancy for added exposure and advertising to both Arabian breeders and other horse people. Make a plan.

By the way, we are breeding this year...

Sincerely,
Sheila Bautz
Sharabia
Kimberli - excellent posts.

Sheila Bautz
HLM
Good morning everybody

Kimberly thanks for your post. You are so right. We used to do this, showed in many open classes because at my time there were not enough Arab Shows available.

We had fun, was very affordable and the Arabians often defeated other breeds,looked so much prettier and attracked many newcommers.

People seem to sometimes fobget that the Arabian ist possibly the most versatile Equine on earth, and so easy to train. And training is what has to be taught.

I was told yesterday visiting another wonderful oldtime horseman/breeder (Cindy and Herbert Murren) in the Gainesville,fl area that the training fee per month doubled with at least one good trainer I know in Ocala,Fl.breeder. It's now about $ 25.00 per day, which still is not much considering upkeep of the horse etc. However, not everybody can afford this and the answer is to learn to do it themselves.

This means that we need to get people into taken some lessons,
teach them what equipment is all about, how to start a young horse (longing,ground driving) etc. If some of our people, having teaching knowledge would get people together in their area, get the children,young ones to also attend, it would be a great help. Even an over the weekend course would do a lot,because those interested usually learn fast.

Right now I dont think anybody can do much with the heatwaves- we still have for the past 10 days 100-112F with great humitity. that's hard on us, but our horses dont mind at all.

Kimberly, should I be able to get to that Al Khamsa convention, may be all of us interested should get together and make a workable plan. All our posters here, have so much to offer and facing each other to have more understanding what we all mean, will be of great help. It is often the problem "How do we start whatever" and there is where I might be able to help. I have even invented some equipment 4o years ago, which is so safe- not on the market- which could be such help to many I think. I will bring it along to show its purpose.

The only problem we all might face is the liability aspect and the insurance companies do have a particular contract for participants to sign, so that none of us gets sued.The latter has been the handicap for many of us afraid to hold hands on work lectures. We all need to discuss this too.

In the meantime may be all interested should work on their ideas,bring them along and lets see how many we can incorporate. I am game.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Sharabia
Dear Hansi,

What you say about attracting new comers is true. One older gentleman who was here to look at our horses a couple of weeks ago said that years ago, while watching an open competition of horses working cows he saw an Arabian who blew away the QH competition. This man, I am guessing, is in his 70's and has been in horses for decades.

Keeping an open mind equals potential progress.

Sincerely,
Sheila Bautz
HLM
Dear Sheila

A great success for many of us oldtimers where the COUNTRY FAIRS.All kind of people go there to have fun and many to buy a horse or being compelled to do so.
It is inexpensive to go to such show, often one can show off ones trailer.
does not need expensive clothing/attire, and meet people from all sorts of way of life. all one needs is to have the horse look clean, the equipment also and have fun. and it is fun people want to have and buy.

Its worth trying.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
diane
Sharabia,Jul 10 2007, 04:35 PM Kmberli - excellent posts. Sheila Bautz*

Ditto this statement.


Ralph - good to read your post... I'd add on to yours the concept of commitment... is the commitment there for the one (or many) horse(s) any more? The Arabian's longevity and usefulness is beyond 20 years. In the culture of the show ring, in general, the has been is the freshly matured horse huh.gif (which in itself begs the question - what are being judged as mature Arabians)

Did we breed too big (quantity), too fast from the point of importation. Other breeds have caught up, as you mention - the attention is divided. A perceived advantage of the other breeds is that they are horses with a name. The Arabians are a name that can encompass different kinds of horses. Do we truly know how to market this aspect of the Arabian to the greater advantage?
Echo1
But don't you also think that sometimes owners and breeders put themselves right into the QH market by reducing prices, stud fees, and not breeding for type as well as performance attributes?
When you can be a lesser quality and lower priced Arab vs. a good quality QH for $2500 and the stud fees are the same at $500 to $750 isn't that like asking to be put into the mix and to compete with the QH? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Sheila,
I think the incentives, like you mention are part of the fun and excitement of showing in performance. Show me the 'added' money. biggrin.gif
gadonatella
How else are you going to draw in more people then to compete with the QH market? If there were more well broke arabians that are child-safe to ride and show in open and 4-H shows they have to be in the same price range of $2,500 to $3,000 as QH's to attract new buyers. I"m not talking upper end Class A show horses- I'm talking an all around family horse. If I were looking for a horse and seen a nice quality QH in that price range and the nearest Arabian started at triple that price which would I buy for my child to ride and show? The QH of course...

Sandy
HLM
Goodmorning everybody

Dear Echo1 and Sandy

I mentioned often that none of us can only produce Kentucky Derby winners, so to speak. From a batch of foals there is always that alpha one, and all being graded by the breeder. Bazy Tankersley for many years set a very good example of doing just that "grading" and sold/sells many in the below $ 5,000 range.
Then there will be a good one coming along making up for the losses.

I often stated that I have seen better horses at our smaller breeders than at the EE, and rightfully so, but that did not mean that those were now those Kentucky Derby winners- so to speak. they were by enlarge horses which would be suitable for what you say Sandy, able to compete pricewise with other breeds, but often are far more horse. Most of those horses I saw have at least decent legs under them and are mentally sound as well. But they are not $ 20,000 horses.

I also stated at one time that I think we have possibly no more than 500-700
top broodmares of the SEs in the world. By this I mean, functional,beautiful and close to perfect correctness. Many left his country for the Gulf Regions and Middle east, and the number of top mares is shrinking here in my opinion.
The gulf regions and Middle east continue to search for top mares, pay top prices but also have and are imported average ones with prices ranging below the $ 10,000 mark. I know a number of these horses and understand.

I also understand and know that it is impossible to produce a horse, any horse to sell for $ 2500.- when 3-4 yers old and already under saddle.Shortcuts would have to be taken to warrant such price.Basically one would have to do all the work, forego proper inoculations, worming, ferrir work, and have them on grass most year round.Naturally any of such neglect canl take its toll lateron.

Quality can only be produced from quality mares and stallions. Often halter champions dont fit that picture. I have seen offspring of such SEs which make my hair stand on end, asking myself "what is one got to do with such a horse?
It most certainly did not appear to be able to do anything worthwhile under saddle.

To find out what one has, exposure is most helpful. Showing at those wonderful country fairs is one way to do it. It gives also comparrison of the various breeds entered in such classes. I say this, because it is so possible that that "Kentucky Derby Winner" is sitting in some small breeders backyard, experts would recognize if they see it publicly. Many of the original imports were recognized that way.

So I see that weanling are insured for 60K. With what was such compared?
Did it look and appear like a triple crown prospect- so to speak- or is it because of
fad breeding? It simply astonishes me. When I see mares appraised with 20K or more and have such crooked legs wondering if they can walk around the block,
then I am astonished.

In any case, testing brings results, gives clues and decision making.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
And that's just the point. If you can buy a good quality QH for the same price as a lesser quality Arabian than the QH will get sold first. Reason being is that most people shop by price alone. I honestly think more colts need to be gelded before they are sold, and the registry needs to give breeders a break on registering geldings.
Then, someone comes along, buys this Arabian and decides that they are going to start breeding. When initially, this horse was not intended as a breeding horse but was sold off because he wasn't of the best quality for breeding. In the end, there are more horses of medicracy being bred and put into the market. Then these horses produce colts which aren't even feasible to be registered. A young Arabian gelding is not a difficult horse to train to ride.
Of course we all know there are more than 2500 Purebreds born this year, so where are they?
Ralph
Diane:

Does the Arabian Horse breeder/owner really understand his/her market? If this website is representative of only the Egyptian Arabian Horse industry, I would immediately say that the breeder/owner participating here, only understands the desires/wants of 3-5% of the total Arabian Horse Community. If Egyptian people and Crabbet people and Polish people and Spanish people all have a warped view of each other and each others horses, how do we expect non-Arabian horse people to perceive and understand our breed?

I'd add on to yours the concept of commitment... is the commitment there for the one (or many) horse(s) any more?

Commitment??? You speak in the language of the adult amateur owner, who develops a relationship with her horse and eventually a loving attachment to her horse, who will be owned by her forever. However, this person is in a very small minority, as most competitvely-minded people, who look to their riding from a self-perspective, in terms of rider skill improvement and the ability of the horse to help this person reach her goals, in and out of the show ring. The commitment is not to the horse but where she sees herself in 1 year, 3 years, 5 years. When a horse is no longer able to teach the rider, beyond where she finds herself, that horse is sold and a new teacher is found. In America, "commitment" to horses can be very depressing, judging from the number of horses who somehow ended up with uncommitted owners, for a variety of reasons and end up in very horrible and tragic circumstances. This is a reality that any person who breeds and raises horses, with an intent to sell them MUST embrace. Who is responsible for the lifetime of a particular horse? What happens to the babies that you care for, protect and love and then send out into the world? I think people need to really think about the responsibility that comes with bringing new life into the world.

The Arabian's longevity and usefulness is beyond 20 years. In the culture of the show ring, in general, the has been is the freshly matured horse

It is a very sad fact that there is a "wastage factor" in America, regarding riding horses. That is, horses who have been ridden to unsoundness because they have been pushed and pushed beyond their means, to deliver movements that their bodies cannot deliver, due to improper training or because they are too young. It is not a problem unique to the Arabian Horse, it is a problem in America with all horses, more to do with people who have the means to buy horses and possess very little knowledge regarding horse care and training. What is realistic and what is not realistic? What price do horses pay for fame and glory? Something needs to be said for the Spanish Riding School and the fact that new riders are trained on the longe line for up to 2 years and do not ride bridled horses until they develop an independent seat.

While all that I have mentioned is negative and maybe a bit discouraging, these are not new problems in America, they are ongoing problems that continue without resolution. I will maintain that these are very exciting times for all horse owners/enthusiasts, as we have so much knowledge/information/choices available, which was not in existence even 5 years ago. We know so much more in terms of veterinary care, nutrition, training, behavior that should insure better care and management of our beloved horses.

Ralph
Sharabia
Hi all,

Regarding prices, perhaps it depends on the area; or not knowing, innocently, or not being aware of the other horse circles.

In our area, a horse that is really doing well on an open circuit of any sort, let's say Barrel Racing, does not command a low price. People who want to compete want to pay. I have also seen mothers purchase horses over $10,000.00 for their children to compete on at fairs.

So, that horse that is doing well in a performance event, if a overall sound breeding animal, has also increased the value of her future foals the more she (or he) successfully competes.

Reining is another example, where a top reiner wrote in his book that it is even better to purchase foals out of a mare who has a performance record, or better yet, who consistently produces foals who accumulate performance records. With this in mind, a good, proven QH in our area will command a stud fee of $1,000.00 and up. This is no different than the arab breed.

As well, in the open horse world, more and more people want to ride a pretty athletic horse, thus the reason some are searching for Arabian mares to cross with their QH stallions. I agree, it should be the other way around, however, the perception is that Arabian stallions are no longer proven in performance and thus the breeders want a stallion who is proven. I hate to say it, but there are QH breeders who feel that if an Arabian stallion covers their QH mare, it is the equivalent of another breed stallion covering a SE mare.

What also dictates price in the other horse world is the amount of winnings the horse has earned. Let's say a horse earns $7,000.00, which is very possible, in one year. The dollar value of that horse goes up because if the horse is for sale, that is taken into account as the horse can earn it's higher purchase price back within a couple of years if that person continues to compete, does well, which also then increases the value on that horse yet again.

Now, yes, there are horses that sell for under $5,000.00. Breeder's with good business sense sometimes to often sell such horses into the hands of people who are who "movers and shakers". Those people increase the value of the horse through winnings while also aiding in promoting the breeders program. Very wise for the long run, as it aids in building a reputation and also becomes one of the best forms of advertising.

In addition, I agree with Hansi - not every horse will be the top of the barrel. However, the offset, so to speak, comes from pricing accordingly. Some may sell for under $5,000.00 but then others for a very good price. The market, in my opinion and from what I have directly experienced, is there for the quality horses.

I personally want to breed the gorgeous performance horse. I do appreciate a good halter horse who is very well conformed and handled with class, who looks like an athlete. One of the mares I purchased last year is professionally trained for halter, as I discovered, and also is being ridden with Reining in mind. She obviously was not abused and absolutely loves to set up for halter with a look in her eye that wants to please but is definitely not terrified. To me, she is close to my personal ideal, and I have another that I bred who I am working out similiar long term plans for. I would certainly, once I fully figure out the entire halter "thing", as I am a rider laugh.gif , love to show her at particular Arabian shows in both halter and undersaddle. I have a hunch about who trained her for halter due to the humane technique and plan on contacting that person.

Not all performance horses are "ugly" and not all halter horses can't perform. smile.gif I feel that is part of what needs to be addressed. I do not like extremes in anything, but instead, the middle way.

Just my thoughts and this is turning into a great discussion,
Sheila Bautz
Sharabia
PS - I definitely have always believed in geldings. God bless those colts who become ambassadors!

Sheila Bautz
HLM
Dear Robert, Sheila and Ralph

What you are saying is so very correct and makes so much sense. Many of us kept on preaching but we need to find a way to put all this into workable action.

How many people have you all known, buying an expensive well trained warmblood,having little knowledge how to handle it and got frightened of the horse? I know quite a few. How many have you known who did not appreciate too much the lesser intelligence degree of some other breeds and preferred the Arabian horse instead, which took care of them most all the time. I know quite a few. I know many breeds, ridden many and there simply is no comparrison with them towards the Arabian horse, the SE in particular.

It is so true the "fad" halter champion stallion, promoted to high heaven which never saw a saddle have ruined so much for all of us.Do their owners/breeders care? Obviously not, otherwise they would do something about it.
So what do these people care about? Ask yourself this question. Are they helping you, all of us? I dont think so. Some of you got angry at me when I reprement the Pyramid Society. Of course they do many good things, but what about the important things? Like Stallions shown under saddle before they enter a halter class, have our children ride in all sorts of performance classes, etc.etc.
Where is that promotion? I guess the promotion continues for what I call irresponsible breeders/owners of garden ornament stallions. All I see is the continuations of "Cartels", and that is not so good for the rest of our people.

So, what are we to do about it? Where can we start again other than going back to basics. Should we not stop helping the promotion of those garden ornaments by not breeding from them?

the PS has board members who do have connections. I had hoped that sponsorships from various rich sources would be obtained. I dont know what the PS is doing with the donations they receive, but had hoped that riding classes for our young ones at least could be inogorated., sponsored.By this I mean, no entry feels, no stalls fees, no expenses other than to get there and back and the food and motel. We all need to think about this and pay attention.

I feel it takes allof us to work together and Ralph is right, we must stick together, not get angry with each other, rather work together as one group, one family one "Big Cartel".!

all have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms



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DebC
I'm quickly going to take a minute to post as I don't have much time. I'm too busy showing off arabians and what they can do to crowds of 10,000+ per day (the event is 10 days long) that are coming through the arabian booth and watching the breed demonstrations at the annual Calgary Stampede! To give you an idea of the magnitude of the event so far 92,242 people came through the gate on Friday, July 6th (first day), 123,132 (Saturday), 150,420 (Sunday) and 87,767(Monday).

I’m the breed promotion co-ordinator for my local Arabian horse club. Here are a few of my observations and comments:
  1. Get your Arabians out to people. Don’t expect them to come to you. There are many ways to do this outside of showing that won’t cost you a cent except the gas to get there:
    • Involve yourself in local fairs, exhibitions, agriculture days etc. The sheer number of people that come through our breed booths at the Calgary Stampede and Spruce Meadows is absolutely mind-boggling. We put together a list of people who are willing to have people visit their farms whether they have horses for sale or not and hand it out. We’ve already made many referrals. Sure, some of them will never follow-up but it’s surprising how many do! A local breeder was just visited by a person from Africa who was at Stampede and who is seriously interested in their stock and frozen semen from their stallion. Who would have thought?
    • Offer one of your horses for a breed demonstration – your horses gain valuable exposure. Each year we have a lot of problems trying to get people to ride in our demonstrations and I have a hard time understanding why when it is such a great way to get your horses “out there” and sold.
    • Go on trail rides where people can’t help but notice and admire your Arabian and their endurance and rideability.

  2. Showing is not the be all and end all nor do I believe it sets the standard for our breed anymore. The SE stallion I bred to got the gate at US Nationals. Did I care? No. Show wins do not make a breeding stallion and newcomers need to be gently educated in that area. Sure they help in marketing offspring but they are no indication of quality anymore as I haven’t personally liked many of the stallions that have won at Nationals recently. I have, however, followed quite a few that made top ten or got the gate back to their stalls because they were MY type of horse.

  3. Take the time to EDUCATE your buyers. I was in reining horses for 15 years before I decided to become involved in Arabians. Prior to my involvement in the sport of reining I thought $3,000 was A LOT of money for a horse. Now, there is no way I would expect to pay anything less that $15,000 for a very good prospect of good bloodlines that has been in training for less than a year and way more than that if it had more training, had won, or was a futurity prospect. I now understand the cost of training and I don’t expect someone to sell a horse to me for $3,000 that has even just a year of under saddle training as that won’t even cover the cost of training! Quite a few people who are newbie’s simply do not understand this.

  4. If your horses are not of stellar breeding bloodlines and you choose not to start your horses under saddle then don’t expect to get big bucks for them. I have a hard time trying to understand why people think their horses are worth $$$ just because they are SE. When I see someone price a horse for $20,000 that is 5 years old, has not been started under saddle, not been bred and has just been standing out in a field……..well, I think that is just plain unrealistic.

  5. Be brutally honest about your stock. I learnt this from my crusty reining mentor. Every horse you own or breed has a place and not all that are bred are national champions or breeding stock. Deal with it and find a place for that horse.

  6. Know your market. Then go after it. People in my area, for example, care less about the bloodlines of a horse and more about the trainability and rideability as they are looking for performance and riding horses, not breeding stock.
Good-minded, tractable, trained Arabians always sell themselves IF people know about them and can see them in action.

Have to run. We had a "stampede" on our arabian breed brochures on Sunday (it was Family Day and 150,420 went through the gate that day) and it depleted our supply. I had to have AHA rush courier me more. Today is Kid's Day so there will be another big run on our brochures

Now isn't THAT a positive thing to happen.............

Cheers!
Deb Charnuski
Eyegor
Great post DebC.,
it is also what we have found. Grass roots is where we all have to start. back when we were actively breeding we were a mentor farm and had girl-scouts and boys-couts as well as 4Hrs out to see the babies being born and imprinted and the kids as well as the adults couldn't get enough of petting the mares and stallions. We also gave demonstrations and breeding instructions to interested groups like a womens club, advanced 4-Hers and the like, in the area and we sold 5 horses in direct response to sponsoring such events. This was before we became totally involved with SEs. We did our stint in showing and actually went to the Nationals and did well, earned the stallion his legion of honor and it is hilarious that all the money spent to get him there and bring him back resulted in exactly 0 breedings nor inquiries as to his get. Talk about wasted money.......
You are absolutely correct that getting the horses out there seen and then showing people what they are capable of, while looking beautiful to boot, is the correct way to promote them. It is absolutely the right time to get them out there and prove that they are people friendly, not the raging wild horses that were promoted with the halter crowd of days gone by. One wonders where the reputation of being wild and unmanageable for weekend riders came from, but one needs only to look at the way they were promoted in the roaring 80s.
You are to be commended for getting out there and getting people acquainted with this amazing breed. Much better than sitting at home and telling others what should be done, you are out there doing it. Talk about commitment.....Bravo.
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