Liebes Forum,
nun hat sich Oliver schon so eine Mühe gemacht, den Artikel zu schreiben - also fange ich mal mit der Diskussion an. Hier also meine Meinung:
Ich oute mich als Nicht-Reiter, den Ägypter aus rein ästhetischen und kulturell-historischen Gründen und vielleicht einer Art tierzüchterischen Neugier heraus faszinieren. Der Erhaltungsaspekt ist mir weitaus wichtiger als die Reitbarkeit. Trotzdem MUSS die Reitbarkeit und ein dafür erforderliches Exterieur Selektionskriterium bleiben, da sie auch für den Beduinen überlebenswichtig waren. Daher begrüße ich den Vorstoß des VZAP, die Rittigkeitsprüfung mit in die Hengstbeurteilung einfließen zu lassen. Allerdings müssen wir uns fragen, ob mit der europäischen Reitweise und dem dafür geeigneten Exterieur nicht eine Selektionsrichtung eingeschlagen wurde, die dem Erhaltungsaspekt zuwiderläuft. Ein schwungvoller (Show-)Trab war sicherlich für ein Wüstenpferd eine vollkommen fremde, unangemessen energiezehrende Fortbewegungsart, die auch bei den Bodenverhältnissen (steiniges Hochland, Sandwüste) der Arabia deserta nur selten angebracht war und eben eine Winkelung und Bemuskelung eines Warmblutfundaments erfordert. Der Originalaraber, wie wir ihn aus Berichten, historischen Kunstwerken und alten Fotos her kennen, hatte aber eben ein ganz anderes Gebäude. Angepaßt an eine möglichst kraftsparende Fortbewegung über endlos lange Strecken in steinigem oder sandigen Gelände hat sich eine Fortbewegungsart entwickelt, die wie bei Wildtieren des gleichen Lebensraumes aus kurzen Galopp- und Schrittfolgen besteht. Hierzu waren ein kurzer Rücken, lange Beine und steile Gliedmaßenwinkel ideal, weil die Hinterhand schnell und ohne große Kraftübertragung sozusagen unter den Schwerpunkt pendeln konnte. Die Kruppe war kurz und gerade, weil dazu kein großer Muskelapparat mit langen Hebeln erforderlich war. Aus Gleichgewichtsgründen waren die Hälse dieser im Quadrat- oder gar Hochrechteckformat stehenden Pferde eher kurz und hoch angesetzt.
Man möge mich korrigieren, wenn ich auf dem Holzpfad wandele, aber die "Umzüchtung" des Originalarabers in einen modernen Kulturaraber mit "Reitpferdepoints" nach europäischen Wünschen begann sicher schon zu Zeiten der RAS unter dem englischen Kavallerieveterinär Dr. Branch.
Ich habe nichts dagegen, nur für mich (und vielleicht andere auch) stellt sich manchmal die Frage, WAS das Zuchtziel eigentlich sein soll. Denn zwischen den Ansprüchen moderner Reiterei und der Erhaltung des Originalarabers liegen nun einmal Welten ...
Full Version: Born To Perform
Habe den Artikel gerade gelesen und im Geiste vieles rot unterstrichen. Eine ziemlich treffende Bestandsaufnahme, wenn auch etwas überzogen. Aber ich verstehe schon, warum. 
Sonst wird's halt nicht so überdeutlich. Die Frage ist, was kann man tun? Alle Ägypter sind jedenfalls nicht nicht-reitbar aber es ist auf jeden Fall ein Trugschluss anzunehmen, nur weil ein Ägypter nicht hübsch genug für die Schau ist, wird aus ihme in tolles Reitpferd. Das Gegenteil ist oft der Fall - ausgemustert auf der Schau, nicht leistungsfähig und nicht robust genug, Zwischenstation Pferdehändler, Endstation Metzger.Ich kenne so viele Ägypter, die nie geritten werden konnten. Selbst aus sogenannten "Leistungslinien"; da fällt mir der Kasr El Nile-Sohn Nile Prince ein, der nie einen Sattel aufgelegt bekommen konnte und viele andere, die Beinprobleme hatten, Rückenprobleme, usw. Mein erster Ägypter hatte derart kaputte Beine, dass ich ihn nach einem halben jahr nicht mehr reiten konnte und er nur auf der Weide stand. Viele meiner Freunde haben ähnliche Erfahrungen mit Arabern, z.T. auch speziell mit Ägyptern gemacht. Lann natürlich Zufall sein, aber einige haben sich von Arabern dann abgewandt.
Es wäre schön, würde der Verband das Ausbilden von Arabern besonders fördern - mit Prämien oder einer besonderen Erwähnung, ähnlich dem Elite-Vorbild. Warum keine "Reiteliten"? Warum werden Profitrainer hofiert, die dem Pferd beibringen an der Leine zu gehen und im Stand gut auszusehen anstatt, dass man junge Ausbilder fördert, die sich dem Araber annehmen können. Als erstes müsste die HLP wieder Pflichtprogramm werden. Das wäre ein kleiner aber wichtiger Schritt.
Ich meine jeder soll machen was er mag. Am Ende regelt der Markt die Situation. Ich finde auch zwischen den Ansprüchen an ein deutsches Reitpferd und an den "Origianltyp", so wie ich ihn mir vorstelle, klaffen große Lücken, die nicht so einfach geschlossenw erden können, ohne das Pferd als solches, seine Charakteristika zu verändern. Die Frage ist ob wir das wollen?
Lieber Dr. Wigger, das was Sie schreiben, empfinde ich als absolut richtig. Allerdings mit einer Einschränkung( bzw. einer Randbemerkung), die ich interessant finde: Wir dürfen den Araber nicht verändern in Richtung auf modernes Reitpferd, weil Exterieur udn Aktion dafür nicht angelegt sind. So weit, so gut. Dass wir ihn aber schon verändert ahben für den Sieg auf Schauen, bitte ich zu beachten. Gerade Kruppe (nicht leicht geneigt wie ursprünglich oder gar abfallend), brettgerader Rücken, Schwanenhals, unnatürlich hohe Aktion - so sehen die Schauaraber aus, ohne dass jemand Einspruch erhebnt und sie als nicht dem Zuchtziel entsprechend einordnen würde. Im Gegenteil, sie gewinnen Championate.
Um ein gutes Reitpferd zu sein, muß der Araber sich aber gar nicht verändern (wenn man Reiten nicht als Teilnahme beim Dressur-Grand-Prix meint). Er muß nur anders selektiert werden. Da liegt meiner Meinung nach der Hase im Pfeffer. Aber wer nicht reitet, den intertessiert das zwangsläufig nicht und die reitimmanenten Werte wie Robustheit, Langlebigkeit, Widerstandsfähigkeit, Lauflust, Intelligenz, Korrektheit des Fundaments, weiche Gänge, harte Hufe, gute Sattellage, usw. und so fort werden einem gefälligen Typ und einem hübschen Kopf bedenkenlos geopfert. Im Orient sieht man diese "Renaissance" von unendlich schönen Pferden gerade, und ich bezweifle, dass es für diese Pferde Reiter gibt...
Trotz allem, soll jeder selbst entscheiden, was er bevorzugt. Solange jedenfalls wie wir die Wahl noch haben!
Um ein gutes Reitpferd zu sein, muß der Araber sich aber gar nicht verändern (wenn man Reiten nicht als Teilnahme beim Dressur-Grand-Prix meint). Er muß nur anders selektiert werden. Da liegt meiner Meinung nach der Hase im Pfeffer. Aber wer nicht reitet, den intertessiert das zwangsläufig nicht und die reitimmanenten Werte wie Robustheit, Langlebigkeit, Widerstandsfähigkeit, Lauflust, Intelligenz, Korrektheit des Fundaments, weiche Gänge, harte Hufe, gute Sattellage, usw. und so fort werden einem gefälligen Typ und einem hübschen Kopf bedenkenlos geopfert. Im Orient sieht man diese "Renaissance" von unendlich schönen Pferden gerade, und ich bezweifle, dass es für diese Pferde Reiter gibt...
Trotz allem, soll jeder selbst entscheiden, was er bevorzugt. Solange jedenfalls wie wir die Wahl noch haben!
hannes
Habe die Meinungen alle mir durch den Kopf gehen lassen. Jede dieser Meinung hat ihre Berechtigung, es ist nur der Blickwinkel immer etwas anders. Bei dieser Diskussion hat man leider wieder einen sehr wichtigen Punkt vergessen.
Der Ägypter ist ein spätreifes Tier. Das ist die Tatsache. Spätreif bedeutet aber auch, längere Entwicklungsdauer. Damit verbunden ist auch eine sachgerechte Fütterung und an dieser scheitert es immer wieder. Wir versuchen die Tiere, durch die Fütterung, in Frühreife umzuwandeln. Man kann es machen und es wird leider auch gemacht. Folge davon ist ein zu stark muskelaufgepackter Körper, der auf einem Fundament ruht welches dazu nicht geeignet ist. Sehnen Knochen und Knorpeln werden einer frühzeitig starken Belastung ausgesetzt. Sie verhindert eine dementsprechende Ausbildung des Fundamentes und einen vorzeitigen Verschleiß. Wie kann man denn ein solches Pferd reiten ???
Es ist ja auch kein Wunder wenn einen Großteil der Schaupferde nicht reiten kann. Es müssen ja zwei-jährige schon aussehen wie drei-jährige sonst haben sie ja keine Chance im Championat mitzureden.
Der Ägypter muß ab dem 7 Lebensmonat einen Vereselungsprozeß durchmachen, damit er sich richtig entwickeln kann. Es müssen sich der gesamte Verdauungsapparat und auch die Geschlechtsorgane tiergerecht entwickeln. Durch die zu starke Fütterung werden die Eierstöcke und die Gebärmutter zu früh in Fett eingebettet. Die führt zu einer schlechteren Druchblutung und zu einer mangelhaften Funktion. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, daß diese Stuten jedes Jahr ein Fohlen bekommen, ist sehr gering.
Wenn man die Fütterung wieder etwas ernst nimmt, kann man den Ägypter doch wieder auf die "Sprünge" besser gesagt auf die "Rittigkeit" helfen
Viele liebe Grüße
Habe die Meinungen alle mir durch den Kopf gehen lassen. Jede dieser Meinung hat ihre Berechtigung, es ist nur der Blickwinkel immer etwas anders. Bei dieser Diskussion hat man leider wieder einen sehr wichtigen Punkt vergessen.
Der Ägypter ist ein spätreifes Tier. Das ist die Tatsache. Spätreif bedeutet aber auch, längere Entwicklungsdauer. Damit verbunden ist auch eine sachgerechte Fütterung und an dieser scheitert es immer wieder. Wir versuchen die Tiere, durch die Fütterung, in Frühreife umzuwandeln. Man kann es machen und es wird leider auch gemacht. Folge davon ist ein zu stark muskelaufgepackter Körper, der auf einem Fundament ruht welches dazu nicht geeignet ist. Sehnen Knochen und Knorpeln werden einer frühzeitig starken Belastung ausgesetzt. Sie verhindert eine dementsprechende Ausbildung des Fundamentes und einen vorzeitigen Verschleiß. Wie kann man denn ein solches Pferd reiten ???
Es ist ja auch kein Wunder wenn einen Großteil der Schaupferde nicht reiten kann. Es müssen ja zwei-jährige schon aussehen wie drei-jährige sonst haben sie ja keine Chance im Championat mitzureden.
Der Ägypter muß ab dem 7 Lebensmonat einen Vereselungsprozeß durchmachen, damit er sich richtig entwickeln kann. Es müssen sich der gesamte Verdauungsapparat und auch die Geschlechtsorgane tiergerecht entwickeln. Durch die zu starke Fütterung werden die Eierstöcke und die Gebärmutter zu früh in Fett eingebettet. Die führt zu einer schlechteren Druchblutung und zu einer mangelhaften Funktion. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, daß diese Stuten jedes Jahr ein Fohlen bekommen, ist sehr gering.
Wenn man die Fütterung wieder etwas ernst nimmt, kann man den Ägypter doch wieder auf die "Sprünge" besser gesagt auf die "Rittigkeit" helfen
Viele liebe Grüße
das ist ein guter punkt. wer seine fohlen auf den januar plant, damit sie in der kommenden saison die nase in der entwicklung weit vorne haben, und als jährlinge oderntlich getrieben und gemästet, wiederum vorne stehen. da fängt das übel doch an. altersgemäß entwickelte pferde sieht man doch nur noch auf mini-schauen. und dort auf den hinteren plätzen.
Good article. Why wouldn't the breeders utilize Anchor Hill Halim? And was Asadd the first US National Champion Stallion in both halter and performance?
So viele Meinungen, so viele gute Argumente für jede Seite...
@ Spiker - I thought I had written "first straight Egyptian" who
won both the halter and performance championship at the U.S. Nationals.
In fact, he was. And he still is the only one.
Will have a look....
Concerning Anchor Hill Halim - well, it was a combination of
being not "pretty" enough (in other words: not enough dish) and
the wrong bloodlines at that time.
@ Spiker - I thought I had written "first straight Egyptian" who
won both the halter and performance championship at the U.S. Nationals.
In fact, he was. And he still is the only one.
Will have a look....
Concerning Anchor Hill Halim - well, it was a combination of
being not "pretty" enough (in other words: not enough dish) and
the wrong bloodlines at that time.
Oliver, yes, you did. It stated that he was the first and only SE to win the US National Champion in both halter and performance. Someone said that it was *Bask that was the first one to win the US National Champion in both halter and performance. Correct?
Re: Anchor Hill Halim....that's a shame. A lesson learned here?
Re: Anchor Hill Halim....that's a shame. A lesson learned here?
Dear Oliver,
Excellent
article, I agree totally with you. Finally somebody is animated to express what many of us we thought, but not to offend anybody, we shut up. Let us hope that this tendency changes. The old thing lasts to the passage of time. Let us hope that the judges also change and the systems.
Thanks Oliver, I thought that I was mistaken <_< and that I was the unique one who thought that
something was failing ..
All Best,
your friend,
Marianella
Excellent
article, I agree totally with you. Finally somebody is animated to express what many of us we thought, but not to offend anybody, we shut up. Let us hope that this tendency changes. The old thing lasts to the passage of time. Let us hope that the judges also change and the systems. Thanks Oliver, I thought that I was mistaken <_< and that I was the unique one who thought that
something was failing .. All Best,
your friend,
Marianella
good morning everybody
Most interesting conversation and opinions.
I realy believe that anybody, who can not ride, is not in such good position to evaluate a horse, if it will become a good riding horse. Also the Arabian horse DOES NEED a certain angulation in the rearend to be able to move well. the idea, that a table top line attached to a short back is the ideal, is not correct. Just try to get those hind legs under. I think many non-riders look at exagerated paintings/statues and come to a wrong conclusion.
Feeding: I totally disagree with not feeding the foals well. Ours get between 8-10 lbs per day. are not fat at all, but build the bone and muscle system, but are outside all the time too.. It is said, that a 5 minute sprint costs 17,000 calories. therefore, it these are not replenished, the horses lives on nervous energy. I have seen Arabians in excellent "meat" condition" but did not have enough strength to last in a 10 minute gallop. Some will now say, that the desert horse did not have this luxory, lived on dates and camels milk. I like to say, these had a high sugar contents which does dreate energy. It also depends on the area/climate etc.
I also like to remind that in the past to present many Se's are used in "ranching", cutting cattle, riding fences,
and that all day long. It is true that the "leg department" deteriated. Indeed horses with poor legs are made champions, bred from and further such on to their offspring. Until the point system is adjusted, so that a two legged horse simply WILL NOT GET A RIBBON, unless it is the only one in the ring, deteriation will continue. It will take generations to outbreed these
horrible conformation faults.
I adamently contend, that all Arabian horses at halter should be judged by the point system of the Sportshorse halter classes. such scores should be made public in advertising as well. Believe me please, I have seen some absolutely georgous, type SE's
with excellent fundament and very promising to become a top under saddle contender.
I also believe, that if our judges HAVE THE COURAGE to judge honestly- unless of course they are incompetent- and the trainers are vorbidden to show a horse other than in a manner it can be honestly examined and judged, things will get worse.
I see these 20's for trotts, as stated in the AAchen ,
AND IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BELIEVE THAT that this could be accurate for some horses. I was not there, but think of the Asil club show in comparison with some. I also see some "17s" on legs on at least one, which should have been a "o"..Such horse would never last under stress and would break down. To just trot for a few yards in the showring in the fashion we see now, is absolutely no proof that a two legged horse can succeed under saddle. A reputable breeder would hardly present such horse as a competitor, no matter how beautiful. NO legs, no horse, no tires no car.. Of course horses have leg faults, and some are not detrimental. But when hoofs are too small, tendons so poor, hocks so flimpsy, what does one expect?
The alternative would be, to consider naming the present halter classes "Model Classes" like the Miss America contest, when beauty is the deciding factor.
We have under the AHA rules for "Model Classes"
and for "Breeding classes". Most certainly points for "type" should not be multiplied. I have seen at the Asil Club show extremely- and many- type entries.
this is just my opinion and might not be yours.
Have a ncie day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Most interesting conversation and opinions.
I realy believe that anybody, who can not ride, is not in such good position to evaluate a horse, if it will become a good riding horse. Also the Arabian horse DOES NEED a certain angulation in the rearend to be able to move well. the idea, that a table top line attached to a short back is the ideal, is not correct. Just try to get those hind legs under. I think many non-riders look at exagerated paintings/statues and come to a wrong conclusion.
Feeding: I totally disagree with not feeding the foals well. Ours get between 8-10 lbs per day. are not fat at all, but build the bone and muscle system, but are outside all the time too.. It is said, that a 5 minute sprint costs 17,000 calories. therefore, it these are not replenished, the horses lives on nervous energy. I have seen Arabians in excellent "meat" condition" but did not have enough strength to last in a 10 minute gallop. Some will now say, that the desert horse did not have this luxory, lived on dates and camels milk. I like to say, these had a high sugar contents which does dreate energy. It also depends on the area/climate etc.
I also like to remind that in the past to present many Se's are used in "ranching", cutting cattle, riding fences,
and that all day long. It is true that the "leg department" deteriated. Indeed horses with poor legs are made champions, bred from and further such on to their offspring. Until the point system is adjusted, so that a two legged horse simply WILL NOT GET A RIBBON, unless it is the only one in the ring, deteriation will continue. It will take generations to outbreed these
horrible conformation faults.
I adamently contend, that all Arabian horses at halter should be judged by the point system of the Sportshorse halter classes. such scores should be made public in advertising as well. Believe me please, I have seen some absolutely georgous, type SE's
with excellent fundament and very promising to become a top under saddle contender.
I also believe, that if our judges HAVE THE COURAGE to judge honestly- unless of course they are incompetent- and the trainers are vorbidden to show a horse other than in a manner it can be honestly examined and judged, things will get worse.
I see these 20's for trotts, as stated in the AAchen ,
AND IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BELIEVE THAT that this could be accurate for some horses. I was not there, but think of the Asil club show in comparison with some. I also see some "17s" on legs on at least one, which should have been a "o"..Such horse would never last under stress and would break down. To just trot for a few yards in the showring in the fashion we see now, is absolutely no proof that a two legged horse can succeed under saddle. A reputable breeder would hardly present such horse as a competitor, no matter how beautiful. NO legs, no horse, no tires no car.. Of course horses have leg faults, and some are not detrimental. But when hoofs are too small, tendons so poor, hocks so flimpsy, what does one expect?
The alternative would be, to consider naming the present halter classes "Model Classes" like the Miss America contest, when beauty is the deciding factor.
We have under the AHA rules for "Model Classes"
and for "Breeding classes". Most certainly points for "type" should not be multiplied. I have seen at the Asil Club show extremely- and many- type entries.
this is just my opinion and might not be yours.
Have a ncie day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 29 2003, 04:06 PM)
I was not there, but think of the Asil club show in comparison with some. I also see some "17s" on legs on at least one, which should have been a "o"..
I assume you mean Loubna, as you asked about her leg marks on another thread?
Oliver:
This article is thoughtful and underscores many of the current topics that are on the minds of Arabian Horse enthusiasts. However let me point out that recognizing the Arabian's ability to perform and doing something positive about it are beyond the ability of anyone here on straightegyptians to solve. We will all meet here, argue, maybe even agree on a few certain points but in the "morning" we will all go back to business and do the same as before.
Egyptian breeding is very complex with many distractions. It is not enough to be straight Egyptian anymore, just as in the "old days" when it was not enough to be an Arabian Horse anymore. Egyptian breeding can be further broken down by the elements in a pedigree. You have the "RARE FACTOR". Little did anyone believe in the days of the great *Sakr that the Egyptian performance horse would continue to be also "rare". In Egyptian breeding we have the focus on the pedigree and quite separately, we have the focus on the genotype. Quite a bit of time is spent in these areas, so why be surprised that NO TIME exists for taking these horses and training them to do something? Doesn't mean that Egyptian Horse is not capable of being a performance horse, only that the interest in Egyptian Horses may be for more than athletic skill, right?
We have an overwhelming amount of information written on the Egyptian Arabian Horse. Depending on the individual, there is more information than what is actually needed. Anyone with a few dollars and a little bit of time, can really educate themselves in ways that did not exist in the time of first importations from Egypt. What is that saying.."A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing....With this huge source of information, comes also the chance for misinformation or misunderstanding. Everyone understands/processes information differently. Look at the differences in the type of Egyptian Horses in Europe versus the type of Egyptian Horse in the USA, in many cases with the same sources of blood.
Many of the most stimulating conversations here on this forum have to do with who is going to be the halter winner at any of the shows. Nothing wrong with that, I love these conversations too, and some of the most exciting horses in the world make their appearances at these shows. However, if we are talking about the loss of performance, are these shows awarding the qualities that enable a horse to perform well, both mentally and physically? The burden falls on the judges and also on the owners of the horses. Judges have the burden of recognizing and awarding the kind of conformation that does well under saddle and owners bear the financial/time burdens together with the risks involved, to train their horse for sport. Sounds like a lot to expect....
We have to recognize that our horses may not always be selected for their performance qualities. People are involved with Arabian Horses for many different reasons, sometimes for reasons that may not have anything to do with riding a horse. Can one breed of horse be many things to a whole bunch of people who enjoy it? What concerns me about the attitude of some is that they will tell you that you can't have a typey Arabian and a horse that does well under saddle, it is either one or the other. WHY??? Why do people automatically discount the athletic skill of a beautiful horse? People over critique a beautiful horse and tear it apart, piece by piece. Remember, these are Arabian Horses and not Olympic Horses or Kentucky Derby winners. We have a hobby horse, will always be a hobby horse and we have to be realistic and understand that this breed will be selected by amateurs in sport, for their hobby.
So, what do you choose? A loss of Arabian Horse type or a horse that does well under saddle but looks like any other kind of horse? I would rather have the horse that is unmistakably Arabian and use this horse as I like, regardless of how or what anyone else says about him. Because any horse is capable of basic saddle training and providing an owner with a lot of enjoyment.
Ralph
This article is thoughtful and underscores many of the current topics that are on the minds of Arabian Horse enthusiasts. However let me point out that recognizing the Arabian's ability to perform and doing something positive about it are beyond the ability of anyone here on straightegyptians to solve. We will all meet here, argue, maybe even agree on a few certain points but in the "morning" we will all go back to business and do the same as before.
Egyptian breeding is very complex with many distractions. It is not enough to be straight Egyptian anymore, just as in the "old days" when it was not enough to be an Arabian Horse anymore. Egyptian breeding can be further broken down by the elements in a pedigree. You have the "RARE FACTOR". Little did anyone believe in the days of the great *Sakr that the Egyptian performance horse would continue to be also "rare". In Egyptian breeding we have the focus on the pedigree and quite separately, we have the focus on the genotype. Quite a bit of time is spent in these areas, so why be surprised that NO TIME exists for taking these horses and training them to do something? Doesn't mean that Egyptian Horse is not capable of being a performance horse, only that the interest in Egyptian Horses may be for more than athletic skill, right?
We have an overwhelming amount of information written on the Egyptian Arabian Horse. Depending on the individual, there is more information than what is actually needed. Anyone with a few dollars and a little bit of time, can really educate themselves in ways that did not exist in the time of first importations from Egypt. What is that saying.."A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing....With this huge source of information, comes also the chance for misinformation or misunderstanding. Everyone understands/processes information differently. Look at the differences in the type of Egyptian Horses in Europe versus the type of Egyptian Horse in the USA, in many cases with the same sources of blood.
Many of the most stimulating conversations here on this forum have to do with who is going to be the halter winner at any of the shows. Nothing wrong with that, I love these conversations too, and some of the most exciting horses in the world make their appearances at these shows. However, if we are talking about the loss of performance, are these shows awarding the qualities that enable a horse to perform well, both mentally and physically? The burden falls on the judges and also on the owners of the horses. Judges have the burden of recognizing and awarding the kind of conformation that does well under saddle and owners bear the financial/time burdens together with the risks involved, to train their horse for sport. Sounds like a lot to expect....
We have to recognize that our horses may not always be selected for their performance qualities. People are involved with Arabian Horses for many different reasons, sometimes for reasons that may not have anything to do with riding a horse. Can one breed of horse be many things to a whole bunch of people who enjoy it? What concerns me about the attitude of some is that they will tell you that you can't have a typey Arabian and a horse that does well under saddle, it is either one or the other. WHY??? Why do people automatically discount the athletic skill of a beautiful horse? People over critique a beautiful horse and tear it apart, piece by piece. Remember, these are Arabian Horses and not Olympic Horses or Kentucky Derby winners. We have a hobby horse, will always be a hobby horse and we have to be realistic and understand that this breed will be selected by amateurs in sport, for their hobby.
So, what do you choose? A loss of Arabian Horse type or a horse that does well under saddle but looks like any other kind of horse? I would rather have the horse that is unmistakably Arabian and use this horse as I like, regardless of how or what anyone else says about him. Because any horse is capable of basic saddle training and providing an owner with a lot of enjoyment.
Ralph
Ralph
it is true what you are saying. I dont know most all of the posters, so have no idea what equine education they have, other than may be owning an SE.
However, the performing SE's I have seen, 95percent were also type horses, which one easily can recognize as an "Arabian".
I would never take beauty over correctness. what good is it owning a "beauty" spending thousands of dollars in training, and then have to put it out in pasture because it broke down for good. We have to stay realistic. We must look at other nations who are producing non Se's and are competitors, strong ones. We must also look at our young generation, who wants to ride, not just look at a horse. If a breeder wants to breed only for a particular type,beauty, that's fine- and so it should be stated, including that such horses might stand on two legs.
If we breed for beauty and functioability, which is very,very possible, than we must take a serious look at the horses we match. Indeed, pedigrees tell us a lot, at least in the past they did. We knew what Nazeer, Sameh , Antar, Mashhour, Sid abouholm, shahloul, and the likes bred on. We looked at both sires and dams.
We also looked critically at the production thereof and continuation.And we TESTED, graded each one to its abilities and never advertised a clunker as a flying machine. But we also had many experts in the grand stands, many expert breeders who were true bonafide horsemen/women and cant be fooled.
Never anything is too late, at least not until we are six feet under. therefore, it can be corrected, improved and ruthless culling taking place. Every horse on four feet has a function, some are Kentucky Derby winners, other excellent on trail for children or the seniors or otherwise.
For ever I am hearing "type,type,type" do these people realy know "type"??? Does type not present a "Breed"
just like in dogs, poodles vs dachshounds?
Believe me, I have seen few SE's which nowadays could compete with the original imports. Now why is this? What went wrong?
I still maintain, that all Se's should be judged no different than any other horse, considering its functioability and ability. Of course, if such horse does not look like an arab- believe me very,very few fall under this categorie in the Se's, then it should be marked down for type, while all other parts should be judged for what they are.
It also appears to me, that in particular Europe a particular "type" became almost a "hype". this is neither fair nor good. But when you look at who is promoting it, you have your answer.
Now, how do we get back on track for all of them??
Have a ncie day
Hansi
it is true what you are saying. I dont know most all of the posters, so have no idea what equine education they have, other than may be owning an SE.
However, the performing SE's I have seen, 95percent were also type horses, which one easily can recognize as an "Arabian".
I would never take beauty over correctness. what good is it owning a "beauty" spending thousands of dollars in training, and then have to put it out in pasture because it broke down for good. We have to stay realistic. We must look at other nations who are producing non Se's and are competitors, strong ones. We must also look at our young generation, who wants to ride, not just look at a horse. If a breeder wants to breed only for a particular type,beauty, that's fine- and so it should be stated, including that such horses might stand on two legs.
If we breed for beauty and functioability, which is very,very possible, than we must take a serious look at the horses we match. Indeed, pedigrees tell us a lot, at least in the past they did. We knew what Nazeer, Sameh , Antar, Mashhour, Sid abouholm, shahloul, and the likes bred on. We looked at both sires and dams.
We also looked critically at the production thereof and continuation.And we TESTED, graded each one to its abilities and never advertised a clunker as a flying machine. But we also had many experts in the grand stands, many expert breeders who were true bonafide horsemen/women and cant be fooled.
Never anything is too late, at least not until we are six feet under. therefore, it can be corrected, improved and ruthless culling taking place. Every horse on four feet has a function, some are Kentucky Derby winners, other excellent on trail for children or the seniors or otherwise.
For ever I am hearing "type,type,type" do these people realy know "type"??? Does type not present a "Breed"
just like in dogs, poodles vs dachshounds?
Believe me, I have seen few SE's which nowadays could compete with the original imports. Now why is this? What went wrong?
I still maintain, that all Se's should be judged no different than any other horse, considering its functioability and ability. Of course, if such horse does not look like an arab- believe me very,very few fall under this categorie in the Se's, then it should be marked down for type, while all other parts should be judged for what they are.
It also appears to me, that in particular Europe a particular "type" became almost a "hype". this is neither fair nor good. But when you look at who is promoting it, you have your answer.
Now, how do we get back on track for all of them??
Have a ncie day
Hansi
Hansi:
I have to disagree with you.
The priority at El Zahraa was always the preservation and the perpetuation of the classic Arabian Horse. And how can we, in 2003, suddenly decide that type is no longer important and that there is another set of parameters that is more important.
It would be a great insult to the Egyptian Arabian Horse if we suddenly abandoned the pursuit of the horse that was painted, written about, sung about, to suddenly breed a horse that appears like any other, in favor of performance qualitites only. If that were to happen, please tell me in advance, so that I can pursue classic Arabian Horse type on my own, independent from the majority that is determined to make this breed look like any other.
Ralph
I have to disagree with you.
The priority at El Zahraa was always the preservation and the perpetuation of the classic Arabian Horse. And how can we, in 2003, suddenly decide that type is no longer important and that there is another set of parameters that is more important.
It would be a great insult to the Egyptian Arabian Horse if we suddenly abandoned the pursuit of the horse that was painted, written about, sung about, to suddenly breed a horse that appears like any other, in favor of performance qualitites only. If that were to happen, please tell me in advance, so that I can pursue classic Arabian Horse type on my own, independent from the majority that is determined to make this breed look like any other.
Ralph
Ralph
read my post again, I said "etc".
absolutely should we look at such horses and more. I can give you a long list of stallions/mares which underwent rigious tests and then were bred from.
These horses were "tested" in performance- tracks etc- and in production. and in my opinion, they were type, looking like an Arabian Horse, some with more straighter faces, but with large jibbas, other a bit more concave, but not exagerated, other than Morafic.
But they did not have small feet, underslung heels, soft and poor tendons, flimpsy hocks, no gaskins, poor muscling,no girth, whithers,poor shoulders etc, other wise they could not have done what they did. the faults, we see now, were created through inconsequent breeding methods I hink..
while no horse is perfect, at least lets produce one which we can ride, which is not always under Vet care, has trouble producing foals, etc.etc, breaks down at the slightest stress demands.
I dont know how many SE's you have seen in recent shows here or abroad. I have seen some. To go only by photos might be misleading.
I had the pleasure of seeing some of the ancestors in many Se pedigree when in Egypt. I also switched from warmbloods to the SE's because of their qualities, we often mention. Now it seems that we are losing people to other breeds, because they have difficulties finding what they are looking for, namely a beautiful, functional Se.
that is not to say, that such are not around, may be they just gave up showing. May be they want more than just a pretty head.
I just looked through the recent Arabian Horse World and here I see a prominent beautiful mare, the photo stopped at her belly. No wonder, who would show what comes underneith. this photo could be misleading.
Have a nice day and I agree to disagree with some you are saying
Hansi
.
.
read my post again, I said "etc".
absolutely should we look at such horses and more. I can give you a long list of stallions/mares which underwent rigious tests and then were bred from.
These horses were "tested" in performance- tracks etc- and in production. and in my opinion, they were type, looking like an Arabian Horse, some with more straighter faces, but with large jibbas, other a bit more concave, but not exagerated, other than Morafic.
But they did not have small feet, underslung heels, soft and poor tendons, flimpsy hocks, no gaskins, poor muscling,no girth, whithers,poor shoulders etc, other wise they could not have done what they did. the faults, we see now, were created through inconsequent breeding methods I hink..
while no horse is perfect, at least lets produce one which we can ride, which is not always under Vet care, has trouble producing foals, etc.etc, breaks down at the slightest stress demands.
I dont know how many SE's you have seen in recent shows here or abroad. I have seen some. To go only by photos might be misleading.
I had the pleasure of seeing some of the ancestors in many Se pedigree when in Egypt. I also switched from warmbloods to the SE's because of their qualities, we often mention. Now it seems that we are losing people to other breeds, because they have difficulties finding what they are looking for, namely a beautiful, functional Se.
that is not to say, that such are not around, may be they just gave up showing. May be they want more than just a pretty head.
I just looked through the recent Arabian Horse World and here I see a prominent beautiful mare, the photo stopped at her belly. No wonder, who would show what comes underneith. this photo could be misleading.
Have a nice day and I agree to disagree with some you are saying
Hansi
.
.
KUDOS TO OLIVER on "Born to Perform"!
Oliver, the Muqatamms are still around, albeit in smaller numbers. You just have to go to those smaller breeders/owners and those "out of Vogue farms".
Why is it that we humans always rush to acquire the latest and greatest fad? Not all of us look good in those designer jeans yet a lot of us seem to want to have the same designer name stamped on our buttocks! It appears to be the same in the Egyptian Arabian horse industry these days.
In my humble opinion the Straight Egyptian Arabian will never regain it's popularity and market share until everyone involved comes together to produce a horse with type AND performance ability. The gap between those "ugly" Egyptian Arabians (the ones that don't look like the current fad) and the "runway beauty Queens" will continue to grow wider and wider until this elite "in" group is showing and selling(?) only to themselves. We are already seeing this in the show ring in the U.S. and Europe appears to be moving in a similar direction.
As George Meredith quoted: "A witty woman is a treasure; a witty beauty is a power".
Can we not apply this to our horses? "An Arabian with the ability to perform is a treasure; a beautiful performance Arabian is a power".
I've asked this question before. Where do we go from here and do we have the ability to learn and to change?
Judi
Abbasiyah
Ocala, Florida
I am having a senior moment...PLEASE STAND BY
I disagree entirely that we have to breed an "either or" Arabian. It is possible to have type and function, but it requires breeders to look FURTHER THAN the head, neck and trot, as Hansi points out below. I have included pictures below of two New Zealand (bred in Australia) stallions who are National champions in the halter ring AND compete in 160km Endurance rides. The photos do not do them justice, but believe me they are very typey stallions. The bay is Simeon Sadir (exp. UAE), who is by the SE stallion Imperial Madaar, out of the Egyptian/Crabbet matriarch Simeon Shirli. The chestnut is Wind'N'Fire, bred by Redwood Lodge and whose movement has often been compared to Kubinec. He is by GG Magnetism (Egyp/Span) out of Windella Silver Fire (Egyp/Span/Crabbet).
PS didn't El Shaklan pass the stallion performance test?
PS didn't El Shaklan pass the stallion performance test?
Wind N Fire
Der Markt für arabische Pferde liegt ja wohl hauptsächlich im Freizeitreiterbereich, gerade weil sie sehr intelligent und dem Menschen zugeneigt sind, eignen sie sich für fast alle Sparten. Die Käufer achten vornehmlich auf guten Charakter und Rittigkeit. Die wenigsten haben das Wissen, welches Pferd das entsprechende Exterieur und Eignung für seine Zwecke mitbringt. Sie haben nicht die Absicht oder das nötige Kleingeld ihre Pferde ins Schautraining zu schicken, kaufen aber dennoch nach dem Kriterium, welches Tier am besten gefällt. Und wie vorige Postings zeigen, ging so mancher Traum vom Reiten schon beizeiten zu Ende, weil die Pferde kaputt auf den Beinen sind. Also liegt doch die Verantwortung beim Züchter, nicht nur hübsche Köpfe zu züchten, sondern auch ein entsprechend gutes Exterieur/Fundament. Sicher gibt es Ägypterhengste, die beides vereinen.
Zu begrüßen ist die Idee der Pyramid Society, die geben ihren Mitgliedern, die ihre Hengste eine HLP machen lassen eine Prämie von ich glaube 250 €. Warum macht das der VZAP nicht auch?!
Zu begrüßen ist die Idee der Pyramid Society, die geben ihren Mitgliedern, die ihre Hengste eine HLP machen lassen eine Prämie von ich glaube 250 €. Warum macht das der VZAP nicht auch?!
What an article! Thank you Oliver - now if those "NOT classic breeders" here in the United States could see it... I agree with almost everything in it.
Where has the movement gone in Egyptian horses? So few floating trots are found, the "stop--stop" movement with snorts and curled tail carriage - where has it gone? Where has the reaching trot - suspended movement gone?
If you are breeding for the next *classic Arabian horse* and your program is based on this, using the bloodlines of the Straight Egyptian, you should be looking for overall classic (extreme) type, good pedigree, refinement, correct conformation, a good disposition, and GOOD movement. An extreme horse without good movement isn't worth very much to someone who wants to breed the next *classic Arabian horse.*
The three most important things in breeding for a classic horse are:
1. OVERALL TYPE- how often we are short of it these days! especially in the United States. You see all these competitive horses, but they have long, straight heads and ill-conformed legs! To me, that is not what you want to preserve in the already so-tiny gene pool of the magnificent Straight Egyptian Arabian.
2. GOOD PEDIGREE- and they need it! A lesson that is learnt by everyone is that the popular way isn't always the best to go. One The Minstril line may be all right, if you outcross the other blood and do not breed back to it. I, for one, cannot stand to look at contaminated pedigrees with three or more lines to The Minstril and Thee Desperado! Most horses nowadays have AT LEAST that many lines to Nazeer - which is obviously quite different. He was a legend and was a lovely horse who was, as they say, almost perfect.
3. MOVEMENT- and this to me is very important. We have lost so much of it. Where is the flagging tail and suspended, floating trot? How could we have lost it? How? Why?
It is wonderful and terrible, at the same time, that movement is not hereditary. *Sakr (mentioned in Oliver's article) was the sire of Nabiel, who was the grandsire of our main stallion, Royal Phariel (Royal Jalliel [Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah] Royal Pharriel [NABIEL X *Pharrah]) and our future herd sire, Sihr Fanous (Taher Sihr [El Hadiyyah X RA Jehan] Fakiha [NABIEL X Foula]). With Phariel (the Ansata Imperial & double *Pharrah grandson besides Nabiel), he definitely inherited his pedigree's movement. Ansata Imperial, his paternal grandsire, was a really nice mover when he was younger and with the blood of *Sakr, it was sure to make a good-moving foal, and the beauty and lovely movement of the highly esteemed *Pharrah - all into one cross - our Phariel. With Sihr Fanous, you have an El Hadiyyah & Nabiel grandson. El Hadiyyah is also a pretty fine mover for another outstanding mover.
Extreme type and refinement are very important in our program. Without these, correct conformation usually is not present and the picture of the classic Arabian horse is not in our minds. Pedigree is also very important, but nowadays the popular trend is what most folks go for and completely forget the rarer bloodlines. The populars are often not as classic as the rares! I don't want to compare horses, but just take the bay stallion Thee Desperado and the bay stallion Amir El Fareed* (bred by E. Dieter of JEVA Farms and exported to Saudi Arabia). Do they compare? While Thee Desperado has the highly-sought-after pedigree that most breeders nowadays (half of whom are NOT classic breeders), seek for their money-making program. On the other hand, some Desperado get can be quite nice. Now compare him to Amir El Fareed. You have a Western-looking, maybe Polish-looking stallion with minimal type and refinement and definitely NOT an exotic head - and you have a stallion, straight from the desert.... Amir El Fareed. His pedigree is not extremely popular (El Norus X Bint Hafarrah), but he is a picturesque legend with awfully beautiful foals. No offense to Desperado owners...
Thank you again, Oliver, for an article that needs to be posted on every breeding lab door - is this the best cross possible to create a classic Arabian horse? Will the foal have the type, the refinement, the movement that is so important and were three strong characteristics years ago in Arabia?
Hope I stated what I meant to say!
D
Kul Hussun al-Melik Arabians: All the King's Horses
Standing Royal Phariel by Royal Jalliel (Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah) out of Royal Pharriel (Nabiel X *Pharrah) 1993 grey, Dahman Shahwan
Akdar Brins by HIA Sud Abnus (Ahadd X RG Selene) out of RA Jehan (AK El Zahra Moniet X BintBint Tuhotmos) 1999 black bay, Dahman Shahwan
I agree with almost everything in it.Where has the movement gone in Egyptian horses? So few floating trots are found, the "stop--stop" movement with snorts and curled tail carriage - where has it gone? Where has the reaching trot - suspended movement gone?
If you are breeding for the next *classic Arabian horse* and your program is based on this, using the bloodlines of the Straight Egyptian, you should be looking for overall classic (extreme) type, good pedigree, refinement, correct conformation, a good disposition, and GOOD movement. An extreme horse without good movement isn't worth very much to someone who wants to breed the next *classic Arabian horse.*
The three most important things in breeding for a classic horse are:
1. OVERALL TYPE- how often we are short of it these days! especially in the United States. You see all these competitive horses, but they have long, straight heads and ill-conformed legs! To me, that is not what you want to preserve in the already so-tiny gene pool of the magnificent Straight Egyptian Arabian.
2. GOOD PEDIGREE- and they need it! A lesson that is learnt by everyone is that the popular way isn't always the best to go. One The Minstril line may be all right, if you outcross the other blood and do not breed back to it. I, for one, cannot stand to look at contaminated pedigrees with three or more lines to The Minstril and Thee Desperado! Most horses nowadays have AT LEAST that many lines to Nazeer - which is obviously quite different. He was a legend and was a lovely horse who was, as they say, almost perfect.
3. MOVEMENT- and this to me is very important. We have lost so much of it. Where is the flagging tail and suspended, floating trot? How could we have lost it? How? Why?
It is wonderful and terrible, at the same time, that movement is not hereditary. *Sakr (mentioned in Oliver's article) was the sire of Nabiel, who was the grandsire of our main stallion, Royal Phariel (Royal Jalliel [Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah] Royal Pharriel [NABIEL X *Pharrah]) and our future herd sire, Sihr Fanous (Taher Sihr [El Hadiyyah X RA Jehan] Fakiha [NABIEL X Foula]). With Phariel (the Ansata Imperial & double *Pharrah grandson besides Nabiel), he definitely inherited his pedigree's movement. Ansata Imperial, his paternal grandsire, was a really nice mover when he was younger and with the blood of *Sakr, it was sure to make a good-moving foal, and the beauty and lovely movement of the highly esteemed *Pharrah - all into one cross - our Phariel. With Sihr Fanous, you have an El Hadiyyah & Nabiel grandson. El Hadiyyah is also a pretty fine mover for another outstanding mover.
Extreme type and refinement are very important in our program. Without these, correct conformation usually is not present and the picture of the classic Arabian horse is not in our minds. Pedigree is also very important, but nowadays the popular trend is what most folks go for and completely forget the rarer bloodlines. The populars are often not as classic as the rares! I don't want to compare horses, but just take the bay stallion Thee Desperado and the bay stallion Amir El Fareed* (bred by E. Dieter of JEVA Farms and exported to Saudi Arabia). Do they compare? While Thee Desperado has the highly-sought-after pedigree that most breeders nowadays (half of whom are NOT classic breeders), seek for their money-making program. On the other hand, some Desperado get can be quite nice. Now compare him to Amir El Fareed. You have a Western-looking, maybe Polish-looking stallion with minimal type and refinement and definitely NOT an exotic head - and you have a stallion, straight from the desert.... Amir El Fareed. His pedigree is not extremely popular (El Norus X Bint Hafarrah), but he is a picturesque legend with awfully beautiful foals. No offense to Desperado owners...
Thank you again, Oliver, for an article that needs to be posted on every breeding lab door - is this the best cross possible to create a classic Arabian horse? Will the foal have the type, the refinement, the movement that is so important and were three strong characteristics years ago in Arabia?
Hope I stated what I meant to say!
D
Kul Hussun al-Melik Arabians: All the King's Horses
Standing Royal Phariel by Royal Jalliel (Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah) out of Royal Pharriel (Nabiel X *Pharrah) 1993 grey, Dahman Shahwan
Akdar Brins by HIA Sud Abnus (Ahadd X RG Selene) out of RA Jehan (AK El Zahra Moniet X BintBint Tuhotmos) 1999 black bay, Dahman Shahwan
Hello All: First, a HUGE kudos (thanks) to Oliver for his excellent articles. They maintain the interest and quality level of this forum. This one is no exception.
Second, I have carefully kept quiet and allowed so many posts before adding my thoughts. Why? Because of how strongly I feel about the SE (and all Arabians, but especially the SE's) being involved in performance and also, because Arabian Horse Fair Association has an Egyptian based Futurity program that emphasises the performance of SE bred horses.
Beauty is as beauty does. A horse is only as good as its foot. The horse depends on its performance ability. Etc Etc -- all the other posts have stated this far better than me. Our horses are not for eating, they should not be for standing in the pasture as pasture pets continuing to breed more pasture pets. We need to go use these horses. They WANT to be used. These horses were not bred to stand in the pasture or a stall doing nothing.
This futurity program was started in its development almost two years ago. The program calls for two-year-olds and three-year-olds in halter only and then the Performance part only is for four year olds, and that part gets 50% of all the futurity funds. The hope is that once started under saddle, these horses will GO ON to higher levels of training and skills.
We -- all of us -- must get our horses out under saddle. We need to bring our horse back to the equine realm for all to see -- not just as an outcross to further refine and improve their breed but for What OUR Breed IS! We must reclaim our spot in the world of recreation, of riding use. Arabians just love, LOVE, to jump and when properly started they can do wonders! Running seems to be second nature for an Arabian to be happy. Arabians are absolutely fantastic at dressage because of their sensitivity. They are phenominal as Friends. But - we must all work at it -- whether there is a dished head, whatever bloodlines.
Second, I have carefully kept quiet and allowed so many posts before adding my thoughts. Why? Because of how strongly I feel about the SE (and all Arabians, but especially the SE's) being involved in performance and also, because Arabian Horse Fair Association has an Egyptian based Futurity program that emphasises the performance of SE bred horses.
Beauty is as beauty does. A horse is only as good as its foot. The horse depends on its performance ability. Etc Etc -- all the other posts have stated this far better than me. Our horses are not for eating, they should not be for standing in the pasture as pasture pets continuing to breed more pasture pets. We need to go use these horses. They WANT to be used. These horses were not bred to stand in the pasture or a stall doing nothing.
This futurity program was started in its development almost two years ago. The program calls for two-year-olds and three-year-olds in halter only and then the Performance part only is for four year olds, and that part gets 50% of all the futurity funds. The hope is that once started under saddle, these horses will GO ON to higher levels of training and skills.
We -- all of us -- must get our horses out under saddle. We need to bring our horse back to the equine realm for all to see -- not just as an outcross to further refine and improve their breed but for What OUR Breed IS! We must reclaim our spot in the world of recreation, of riding use. Arabians just love, LOVE, to jump and when properly started they can do wonders! Running seems to be second nature for an Arabian to be happy. Arabians are absolutely fantastic at dressage because of their sensitivity. They are phenominal as Friends. But - we must all work at it -- whether there is a dished head, whatever bloodlines.
good evening everybody
It appears that all posts so far say the same thing, which is wonderful.
While we have only a few Se shows, all other have all other bloodline horses we have to compete with. No matter how much we like or dislike them, they are very tough competitors. Just look at the scores of Aachen, someone so kindly posted. What does this tell you?
I saw some excellent Kubinec offspring at babolna and in Hungary. And they were also "Type", not SE's but excellent horses. Years ago, it would have been a cinch to defeat them with an SE. May be we still can with horses hidden in someones backyard. Regardless, they are our competition.
But then these hoses are judged for conformation as well. Many,many of the non SE national halter champions became also super performers and produced such. Now why does this not sink in? Why do we try to sweep this under the carpet? Until the day we face reality, things will not improve.
I stated before, at the US National sporthorse championships here I saw some super horses. But I also saw many super riders, some quite young and even some seniors. why cant we employe all-breed judges,
and truly find out what we all really have? Why are we so afraid and for what?
Judi - Abbasiyah- in her post said it right. Of course she is one of the few people left who knew many of the old timers in many of our pedigrees, when so often visiting the EAO.
But she also knew most all of the imports from at least 1968 on in Canada and USA. Even today she has some excellent Se's in her back pastures.I know, I have seen them. And there are numerous other smaller breeders who can claim the same. Is someone listening out there
and taking notes, and check further? That would be a great help.
We all have our preferences in type, breed, whatever.
But let us not gorget that a HORSE IS A HORSE IS A HORSE.
Have nice evening
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
It appears that all posts so far say the same thing, which is wonderful.
While we have only a few Se shows, all other have all other bloodline horses we have to compete with. No matter how much we like or dislike them, they are very tough competitors. Just look at the scores of Aachen, someone so kindly posted. What does this tell you?
I saw some excellent Kubinec offspring at babolna and in Hungary. And they were also "Type", not SE's but excellent horses. Years ago, it would have been a cinch to defeat them with an SE. May be we still can with horses hidden in someones backyard. Regardless, they are our competition.
But then these hoses are judged for conformation as well. Many,many of the non SE national halter champions became also super performers and produced such. Now why does this not sink in? Why do we try to sweep this under the carpet? Until the day we face reality, things will not improve.
I stated before, at the US National sporthorse championships here I saw some super horses. But I also saw many super riders, some quite young and even some seniors. why cant we employe all-breed judges,
and truly find out what we all really have? Why are we so afraid and for what?
Judi - Abbasiyah- in her post said it right. Of course she is one of the few people left who knew many of the old timers in many of our pedigrees, when so often visiting the EAO.
But she also knew most all of the imports from at least 1968 on in Canada and USA. Even today she has some excellent Se's in her back pastures.I know, I have seen them. And there are numerous other smaller breeders who can claim the same. Is someone listening out there
and taking notes, and check further? That would be a great help.
We all have our preferences in type, breed, whatever.
But let us not gorget that a HORSE IS A HORSE IS A HORSE.
Have nice evening
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guten Morgen,
Ein Thema, das mir als Distanzreiter und Züchter rein ägyptischer Pferde sehr gut gefällt. Ich denke gerade im Distanzsport zeigt sich, wie gesund die Pferde auf den Beinen sind. Ich höre oft, daß Reiter zum Teil lange suchen müssen, bis sie ein Pferd gefunden haben, das durch die Ankaufsuntersuchung durchkommt, viele haben auch später Probleme mit den Beinen. Das betrifft allerdings alle Zuchtrichtungen in gleichem Maße. Es bringt sicher nichts, wenn man nach einer Schuldfrage dafür sucht, wir sollten die Energie lieber dafür nutzen, nach einer Lösung aus der Misere zu suchen.
Für mich ist der einzig gangbare Weg die laufende Überprüfung der Leistung, egal ob Distanz, Dressur oder Springen - hauptsache die Pferde werden geritten. Und hier liegt sicher in der Zucht der Ägypter sicher noch einiges im Argen, wo es ja oft in erster Linie um den Typ geht. Wie mal jemand auf dem EEE auf der Kauber Platte gesagt hat : "Wenn wir beim Ägyter den Typ verlieren, verlieren wir das ägyptische Pferd ". Dem konnte ich mich schon damals nicht anschließen, ich hätte gern das Wort "Typ" durch " Leistung" ersetzt.
Ich habe das große Glück die Pferde von Hansi Heck-Melnyk, Serenity Arabian Farms, reiten zu dürfen. Die Pferde wurden über viele Generationen auf Leistung gezüchtet - und das zahlt sich im Distanzsport aus. Im vergangenen Jahr konnten unsere Pferde über 1000 km in der Wertung zurücklegen, und haben im Wettkampf auch gegen andere Zuchtrichtungen Siege und vordere Platzierungen erreicht.
Es gibt sie also noch - die gut reitbaren Ägypter, die sich unterm Sattel bewähren. Und hat Serenity Makib vielleicht keinen Typ????
Ein Thema, das mir als Distanzreiter und Züchter rein ägyptischer Pferde sehr gut gefällt. Ich denke gerade im Distanzsport zeigt sich, wie gesund die Pferde auf den Beinen sind. Ich höre oft, daß Reiter zum Teil lange suchen müssen, bis sie ein Pferd gefunden haben, das durch die Ankaufsuntersuchung durchkommt, viele haben auch später Probleme mit den Beinen. Das betrifft allerdings alle Zuchtrichtungen in gleichem Maße. Es bringt sicher nichts, wenn man nach einer Schuldfrage dafür sucht, wir sollten die Energie lieber dafür nutzen, nach einer Lösung aus der Misere zu suchen.
Für mich ist der einzig gangbare Weg die laufende Überprüfung der Leistung, egal ob Distanz, Dressur oder Springen - hauptsache die Pferde werden geritten. Und hier liegt sicher in der Zucht der Ägypter sicher noch einiges im Argen, wo es ja oft in erster Linie um den Typ geht. Wie mal jemand auf dem EEE auf der Kauber Platte gesagt hat : "Wenn wir beim Ägyter den Typ verlieren, verlieren wir das ägyptische Pferd ". Dem konnte ich mich schon damals nicht anschließen, ich hätte gern das Wort "Typ" durch " Leistung" ersetzt.
Ich habe das große Glück die Pferde von Hansi Heck-Melnyk, Serenity Arabian Farms, reiten zu dürfen. Die Pferde wurden über viele Generationen auf Leistung gezüchtet - und das zahlt sich im Distanzsport aus. Im vergangenen Jahr konnten unsere Pferde über 1000 km in der Wertung zurücklegen, und haben im Wettkampf auch gegen andere Zuchtrichtungen Siege und vordere Platzierungen erreicht.
Es gibt sie also noch - die gut reitbaren Ägypter, die sich unterm Sattel bewähren. Und hat Serenity Makib vielleicht keinen Typ????
An Oliver!
Über Deine kritische Anmerkung zum momentanen Showzirkus ("Kanonenfutter") war ich schon sehr erstaunt. Und andere bestimmt auch.
Jetzt hast Du auch noch richtig nachgelegt.
RESPEKT!!!
Es wäre schön, wenn ein Umdenken zugunsten des einzelnen Pferdes statt finden würde, nicht nur des Ägypters, denn bei den "anderen" Arabern schleichen sich die von Dir beschriebenen Missstände zwangsläufig immer mehr ein.
Es gibt sie noch, die Muqatamms, aber die bleiben zu Hause, sie sind ihren Begleitern (sprich Besitzern) viel zu lieb und kostbar, als dass sie in Schema-F gespresst werden.
Über Deine kritische Anmerkung zum momentanen Showzirkus ("Kanonenfutter") war ich schon sehr erstaunt. Und andere bestimmt auch.
Jetzt hast Du auch noch richtig nachgelegt.
RESPEKT!!!
Es wäre schön, wenn ein Umdenken zugunsten des einzelnen Pferdes statt finden würde, nicht nur des Ägypters, denn bei den "anderen" Arabern schleichen sich die von Dir beschriebenen Missstände zwangsläufig immer mehr ein.
Es gibt sie noch, die Muqatamms, aber die bleiben zu Hause, sie sind ihren Begleitern (sprich Besitzern) viel zu lieb und kostbar, als dass sie in Schema-F gespresst werden.
Hallo,
Sie sprechen einen sehr wichtigen Punkt an, der mir in vielen Beitägen gefehlt hat ! Die ANKAUFSUNTERSUCHUNG !!!
Oft wird von Pferden geredet, die sich der "arme" Freizeitreiter kauft und die er dann nicht reiten kann, weil sie ein schlechtes Exterieur oder Interieur haben....
Meiner Meinung nach kann aber niemandem geholfen werden, der sich blauäugig ein Pferd kauft, sich blenden läßt von irgendwelchen Phrasen des Verkäufers, weil er eigendlich keine Ahnung von objektiver Pferdebeurteilung hat, und hinterher über ein unrittiges Pferd klagt ! Womöglich ist der Wissens- und Ausbildungsstand des betroffenen Freizeitreiters auch gar nicht ausreichend für dieses Pferd....
Bitte jetzt nicht falsch verstehen, ich möchte keinesfalls die vielen Freizeitreiter in eine Ecke stellen - ich habe selbst lange Zeit mit Freude dazugehört - und auf ein Turnier kriegt man mich auch heute noch nicht...
Ganz im Gegenteil ! Darunter verstecken sich soooo viele an Arabitis erkrankte Menschen, die ihrem Pferd / Pferden ein besseres Leben bieten, als so mancher Profi-Stall ...
Es gibt auch unter Profis solche, die mit der Sensibilität des Arabers nichts anfangen können .... dazu frei das Motto "zu jedem Topf paßt ein Deckel" ...
Aber es gibt nunmal auch die anderen Beispiele...
Ich meine mal zu behaupten, daß mit meiner Stute, die mit Kindern (ab 6 Jahre) im Reitunterricht geht, trotzdem kein Anfänger alleine klar käme ! Sie braucht eine Aufgabe, tägliche Beschäftigung und Bewegung... Wenn sie nur zwei Tage nicht geritten wird, merkt man das schon beim Rausbringen auf die Weide.... Die Dame hört halt "die Regenwürmer husten " -sie hat eine ungeheure Lauflust, insbesondere auf dazu einladenden Wiesen...( welch ein Gaudi ! ) und ist unheimlich sensibel im Umgang - weh dem, der falsch bestraft !
Außerdem ist sie sehr leicht im Umgang -vorrausgesetzt sie wird beschäftigt !- steht auf Kommando (leiser Pfiff oder "stehh" ) felsenfest, auch wenn man mal in die Sattelkammer muß oder in eine benachbarte Box oder, oder ; sie ist super einfach zu longieren und dabei äußerst zuverlässig - mit den kleinen Kid's ist das mehr als wichtig !
; menschenbezogen, leichtfuttrig, ausdauernd und und und
Ich bin mir sicher, daß es unter den Freizeitreitern viele solche Beispiele gibt !
Wo sind sie ? Meldet euch mal zu Wort !
Trotzdem fallen mir auf Schlag mehrere langjährige Pferdeleute und auch mehrere Freizeitreiter ein, die mit ihr so nicht umgehen könnten....
Außerdem fallen mir zu dem Thema einige Leute ein, die sich ein Pferd in guter Hoffnung kauften, welches sich aber als Fehlinvestition entpuppte... Womit wir wieder bei der Ankaufsuntersuchung wären. Auch wir haben mal den Fehler gemacht und eines ohne gekauft - das kann gut gehen - bei der betreffenden Stute aber nicht, sie verstarb nach einer Woche; vergiftet wahrscheinlich an zurückgebliebener Nachgeburt; das einen Monat alte Fohlen zogen wir erst mit Flasche, dann mit Amme groß.
Natürlich ist eine Ankaufsuntersuchung auch keine Garantie auf Lebenszeit, aber eine Gewissheit über einige eventuell versteckte Mängel.
Außerdem sollte man beim Pferdekauf mindestens 2 paar Augen zu Rate ziehen, wovon wenigstens ein Paar über genug (naja, genug ist wieder so eine Auslegungsfrage) Sachkenntniss verfügen um das Pferd in Ex- und Interieur zu beurteilen. Außerdem sollte man auch den späteren Käufer einzuschätzen wissen, schließich muß das Pferd auch "passen" EBENSO bei der Wahl des Hengstes .... soviel zum Thema , von wegen die Hengstbesitzer, die schlechter bewertete Hengste zur Zucht aufstellen, sind schuld - es zwingt doch wohl niemand den Stutenbesitzer zu jenem Hengst, oder ?
Naja, nur meine Meinung
Aber egal, Fakt ist auch, ich lege Wert auf ein reitbares Pferd mit Charakter ! Doch gefallen muß es mir auch !!! Es muß halt *klick* machen dazu gehört nicht nur, daß es schick ist, sondern auch wie es mich anschaut, wie es mit mir umgeht (auch wenn vieles erziehbar ist...) und wie es sich bewegt - wenn ich ein Pferd sehe, und ich denke 'ui, was für ein Tier, was würde ich geben um dieses mal zu reiten' dann hat es bis jetzt auch immer geklappt... zumindest bei mir und bis jetzt....
LG, Layla
Sie sprechen einen sehr wichtigen Punkt an, der mir in vielen Beitägen gefehlt hat ! Die ANKAUFSUNTERSUCHUNG !!!
Oft wird von Pferden geredet, die sich der "arme" Freizeitreiter kauft und die er dann nicht reiten kann, weil sie ein schlechtes Exterieur oder Interieur haben....
Meiner Meinung nach kann aber niemandem geholfen werden, der sich blauäugig ein Pferd kauft, sich blenden läßt von irgendwelchen Phrasen des Verkäufers, weil er eigendlich keine Ahnung von objektiver Pferdebeurteilung hat, und hinterher über ein unrittiges Pferd klagt ! Womöglich ist der Wissens- und Ausbildungsstand des betroffenen Freizeitreiters auch gar nicht ausreichend für dieses Pferd....
Bitte jetzt nicht falsch verstehen, ich möchte keinesfalls die vielen Freizeitreiter in eine Ecke stellen - ich habe selbst lange Zeit mit Freude dazugehört - und auf ein Turnier kriegt man mich auch heute noch nicht...
Ganz im Gegenteil ! Darunter verstecken sich soooo viele an Arabitis erkrankte Menschen, die ihrem Pferd / Pferden ein besseres Leben bieten, als so mancher Profi-Stall ...
Es gibt auch unter Profis solche, die mit der Sensibilität des Arabers nichts anfangen können .... dazu frei das Motto "zu jedem Topf paßt ein Deckel" ...
Aber es gibt nunmal auch die anderen Beispiele...
Ich meine mal zu behaupten, daß mit meiner Stute, die mit Kindern (ab 6 Jahre) im Reitunterricht geht, trotzdem kein Anfänger alleine klar käme ! Sie braucht eine Aufgabe, tägliche Beschäftigung und Bewegung... Wenn sie nur zwei Tage nicht geritten wird, merkt man das schon beim Rausbringen auf die Weide.... Die Dame hört halt "die Regenwürmer husten " -sie hat eine ungeheure Lauflust, insbesondere auf dazu einladenden Wiesen...(
welch ein Gaudi ! ) und ist unheimlich sensibel im Umgang - weh dem, der falsch bestraft !Außerdem ist sie sehr leicht im Umgang -vorrausgesetzt sie wird beschäftigt !- steht auf Kommando (leiser Pfiff oder "stehh" ) felsenfest, auch wenn man mal in die Sattelkammer muß oder in eine benachbarte Box oder, oder ; sie ist super einfach zu longieren und dabei äußerst zuverlässig - mit den kleinen Kid's ist das mehr als wichtig !
; menschenbezogen, leichtfuttrig, ausdauernd und und und
Ich bin mir sicher, daß es unter den Freizeitreitern viele solche Beispiele gibt !
Wo sind sie ? Meldet euch mal zu Wort !
Trotzdem fallen mir auf Schlag mehrere langjährige Pferdeleute und auch mehrere Freizeitreiter ein, die mit ihr so nicht umgehen könnten....
Außerdem fallen mir zu dem Thema einige Leute ein, die sich ein Pferd in guter Hoffnung kauften, welches sich aber als Fehlinvestition entpuppte... Womit wir wieder bei der Ankaufsuntersuchung wären. Auch wir haben mal den Fehler gemacht und eines ohne gekauft - das kann gut gehen - bei der betreffenden Stute aber nicht, sie verstarb nach einer Woche; vergiftet wahrscheinlich an zurückgebliebener Nachgeburt; das einen Monat alte Fohlen zogen wir erst mit Flasche, dann mit Amme groß.
Natürlich ist eine Ankaufsuntersuchung auch keine Garantie auf Lebenszeit, aber eine Gewissheit über einige eventuell versteckte Mängel.
Außerdem sollte man beim Pferdekauf mindestens 2 paar Augen zu Rate ziehen, wovon wenigstens ein Paar über genug (naja, genug ist wieder so eine Auslegungsfrage) Sachkenntniss verfügen um das Pferd in Ex- und Interieur zu beurteilen. Außerdem sollte man auch den späteren Käufer einzuschätzen wissen, schließich muß das Pferd auch "passen"
EBENSO bei der Wahl des Hengstes .... soviel zum Thema , von wegen die Hengstbesitzer, die schlechter bewertete Hengste zur Zucht aufstellen, sind schuld - es zwingt doch wohl niemand den Stutenbesitzer zu jenem Hengst, oder ? Naja, nur meine Meinung
Aber egal, Fakt ist auch, ich lege Wert auf ein reitbares Pferd mit Charakter ! Doch gefallen muß es mir auch !!! Es muß halt *klick* machen dazu gehört nicht nur, daß es schick ist, sondern auch wie es mich anschaut, wie es mit mir umgeht (auch wenn vieles erziehbar ist...) und wie es sich bewegt - wenn ich ein Pferd sehe, und ich denke 'ui, was für ein Tier, was würde ich geben um dieses mal zu reiten' dann hat es bis jetzt auch immer geklappt... zumindest bei mir und bis jetzt....
LG, Layla
Herr Petersen wir haben vor einigen Jahren auch einen Serenity-Hengst für unsere Stute gewählt, der vielen (Ägypter)-Züchtern zu wenig typvoll war. Diese Entscheidung bereuen wir nach wie vor nicht. Uns war wichtig, dass der Vater unseres Fohlen mehr vorzuweisen hat, als Schauerfolge. Das Ergebnis entspricht unseren Vorstellungen. Jetzt haben wir einen Junghengst, der unserer Meinung nach typvoll ist, aber auch entsprechende Reitpferdeigenschaften und Leistungspotential hat.
Good morning everybody
Ich erfuhr dass Herr Beste dem Serenity Makib, Besitzer Lutz Petersen) eine mangelhafte Note fuer fundament und Typ gab, was mich einfach entsetze. In 37 Jahren unserer Zucht haben wir nur saubere fundamente gezuechtet und sehr viele typvolle SE's die multiple championate gewannen..
Ich sah weiterhin einen Hengst bei Herrn Denart, welcher ebenfalls mangelhafte Punkte fuer Fundament etc bekam, was mich ebenfalls entsetzte, wenn nicht sogar empoerte. Ich arbeitet mit diesem Hengst fuer zwei Tage und konnte Maengel nicht feststellen. Das Pferd war auch erfolgreich auf der Rennbahn. Auf der anderen seite sah ich einen Junghengst bei Herrn Letsch vor vielen Jahren- er hatte diesen Hengst as "Boarder" welcher das championat by the Einstellung gewann und man wusste nicht ob es ein pony oder Pferd war. Ich war stark enbluefft, denn dieses Pferd konnte weder treten, und hatte grosse conformation Fehler und waere kaum faehig reiterlich etwas zu erreichen..
Nun moechte ich gerne wissen, wie man eigentlichzu
den Noten kommt. Ist es Unwissen oder Politik?
Wie viele andere gute Araber werden durch deratiges
Richten beschaemt. Soll man tatsaechlich diese Araber von "Experten" nachrichten lassen und dann dieses veroeffentlichen?
Man sollte darueber mal nachdenken und all Araber, welche "durchgefallen" von Experten nachrichten lassen .
Es kann sein, dass sich dann einiges aendern wird.
Nur so meine Meinung
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ich erfuhr dass Herr Beste dem Serenity Makib, Besitzer Lutz Petersen) eine mangelhafte Note fuer fundament und Typ gab, was mich einfach entsetze. In 37 Jahren unserer Zucht haben wir nur saubere fundamente gezuechtet und sehr viele typvolle SE's die multiple championate gewannen..
Ich sah weiterhin einen Hengst bei Herrn Denart, welcher ebenfalls mangelhafte Punkte fuer Fundament etc bekam, was mich ebenfalls entsetzte, wenn nicht sogar empoerte. Ich arbeitet mit diesem Hengst fuer zwei Tage und konnte Maengel nicht feststellen. Das Pferd war auch erfolgreich auf der Rennbahn. Auf der anderen seite sah ich einen Junghengst bei Herrn Letsch vor vielen Jahren- er hatte diesen Hengst as "Boarder" welcher das championat by the Einstellung gewann und man wusste nicht ob es ein pony oder Pferd war. Ich war stark enbluefft, denn dieses Pferd konnte weder treten, und hatte grosse conformation Fehler und waere kaum faehig reiterlich etwas zu erreichen..
Nun moechte ich gerne wissen, wie man eigentlichzu
den Noten kommt. Ist es Unwissen oder Politik?
Wie viele andere gute Araber werden durch deratiges
Richten beschaemt. Soll man tatsaechlich diese Araber von "Experten" nachrichten lassen und dann dieses veroeffentlichen?
Man sollte darueber mal nachdenken und all Araber, welche "durchgefallen" von Experten nachrichten lassen .
Es kann sein, dass sich dann einiges aendern wird.
Nur so meine Meinung
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guten Morgen Hansi,
Im Fundament hat Makib eine gute Bewertung bekommen, nur im Typ hat er der Komission nicht gefallen. Bedenken muß man sicherlich, daß er damals erst 3-jährig war und er sich im Typ in der Zwischenzeit noch sehr positiv verändert hat.
Für mich ist es viel wichtiger, was er seinen Fohlen mitgibt: kräftige, korrekte Fundamente - sehr gute Bewegungen - vorbildlichen Charakter - und Typ.
Auf dem Foto von Klaus Denart : Serenity Shaha mit Fohlen von Serenity Makib ( 2002 ).
Im Fundament hat Makib eine gute Bewertung bekommen, nur im Typ hat er der Komission nicht gefallen. Bedenken muß man sicherlich, daß er damals erst 3-jährig war und er sich im Typ in der Zwischenzeit noch sehr positiv verändert hat.
Für mich ist es viel wichtiger, was er seinen Fohlen mitgibt: kräftige, korrekte Fundamente - sehr gute Bewegungen - vorbildlichen Charakter - und Typ.
Auf dem Foto von Klaus Denart : Serenity Shaha mit Fohlen von Serenity Makib ( 2002 ).
Lieber Lutz
|dann habe ich es falsch verstanden.wir haben noch nie ein Pferd besessen oder gezuechtet welches nicht ein sauberes Fundament hatte. Und vom Type, von welchem sprechen denn wir alle? Den "In" type oder ob ein Pferd seiner Breed Ehre macht und wie ein Araber aussieht, ganz gleich in welchem Alter. Wenn man grundsaetzlich nur den "In" type als Grundlage nimmt, dann koennen wir gerne einmal die offspring zaehlen und damit tausende von anderen wirklich type Araber herauswerfen.
Uebrigens dieser "In" type kam hier noch nie an.
Man richtete wirklich auch wie es sein soll, und mit ganz weningen Ausnahmen kamen discrepancies vor.
Ich habe oft erwaehnt, dass es verschidene "types" gibt.
Alleine zwischen "antar" und "Sameh" und "Morafic" haben wir drei "typen". dazu nehmen wir dann noch die Babsons, die Davenports, die Doyeles und wiederum haben wir anderen "types" doch sehen alle wie "Araber" aus ,unmistakenly.
Wenn man fundamente beurteilt, denkt man sofort daran was die beine aushalten oder nicht aushalten koennen,unter Berucksichtigung das ein Pferd auch leistungsfaehig sein soll. Da einige faults keinen Kummer machen wuerden, andere auf jeden Fall, wie schlechte Sehnen, - in den Vorderbeinen- oder flimpsy hocks, die ja das meiste von dem Gewicht des Pferdes und Reiter tragen. Wenn das Pferd dann noch auch Kinderschuhen (winzige hoofs "im Vergleich zum Koerper stehen, dann kann man wirklich nicht viel von einem derartigen Pferd verlangen. Was tut ein uberlanger Schwanenhals, den man bis auf den Schweif zureckbiegen kann, und der rest des Koerpers geht immer noch gerade aus. Versucht das doch mal im Gelaende, ueber spruenge etc. Das ist doch lebensgefaehrlich.
Nun das ist meine Meinung aus Erfahrungen, und duerften nicht die anderer posters sein.
Liebe Gruesse
Hansi
PS.Ich habe aber die Noten von Herrn Denarts hengst gesehen und fiel fast um. fast alle lagen zwischen 2-3 Noten tiefer. Und ich hatte meine Brille an. So etwas gibt es doch nicht.
|dann habe ich es falsch verstanden.wir haben noch nie ein Pferd besessen oder gezuechtet welches nicht ein sauberes Fundament hatte. Und vom Type, von welchem sprechen denn wir alle? Den "In" type oder ob ein Pferd seiner Breed Ehre macht und wie ein Araber aussieht, ganz gleich in welchem Alter. Wenn man grundsaetzlich nur den "In" type als Grundlage nimmt, dann koennen wir gerne einmal die offspring zaehlen und damit tausende von anderen wirklich type Araber herauswerfen.
Uebrigens dieser "In" type kam hier noch nie an.
Man richtete wirklich auch wie es sein soll, und mit ganz weningen Ausnahmen kamen discrepancies vor.
Ich habe oft erwaehnt, dass es verschidene "types" gibt.
Alleine zwischen "antar" und "Sameh" und "Morafic" haben wir drei "typen". dazu nehmen wir dann noch die Babsons, die Davenports, die Doyeles und wiederum haben wir anderen "types" doch sehen alle wie "Araber" aus ,unmistakenly.
Wenn man fundamente beurteilt, denkt man sofort daran was die beine aushalten oder nicht aushalten koennen,unter Berucksichtigung das ein Pferd auch leistungsfaehig sein soll. Da einige faults keinen Kummer machen wuerden, andere auf jeden Fall, wie schlechte Sehnen, - in den Vorderbeinen- oder flimpsy hocks, die ja das meiste von dem Gewicht des Pferdes und Reiter tragen. Wenn das Pferd dann noch auch Kinderschuhen (winzige hoofs "im Vergleich zum Koerper stehen, dann kann man wirklich nicht viel von einem derartigen Pferd verlangen. Was tut ein uberlanger Schwanenhals, den man bis auf den Schweif zureckbiegen kann, und der rest des Koerpers geht immer noch gerade aus. Versucht das doch mal im Gelaende, ueber spruenge etc. Das ist doch lebensgefaehrlich.
Nun das ist meine Meinung aus Erfahrungen, und duerften nicht die anderer posters sein.
Liebe Gruesse
Hansi
PS.Ich habe aber die Noten von Herrn Denarts hengst gesehen und fiel fast um. fast alle lagen zwischen 2-3 Noten tiefer. Und ich hatte meine Brille an. So etwas gibt es doch nicht.
Hallo,
auch wir hatten letztes Jahr das gleiche. Aufgrund nur "ausreichend " (5) im Rasse und Geschlechtstyp, brauchten wir unseren Hengst nicht mehr in der Halle vorstellen (was wir leider auch nicht getan haben, heute würden wir es machen), also Rausschmiß am harten Boden, obwohl er keine Note unter 5 hatte (Fundament sogar die Note 6). Ich muß zugeben, unserer Hengst (selber vorgeführt) reißt nicht die Augen auf und bläht die Nüstern wenn man ihn vor ein paar Menschen hinstellt. Er braucht schon ein bisschen mehr Aufregung (sollte am harten Boden auch nicht gefragt sein, dafür ist die Halle da). Komisch ist nur das er ca. 6 Wochen vor der Hengsteintragung von Mitgliedern der Körkomission auf einer Schau in allen 5 Kriterien die Note 17 bekam, und die Herren sich länger Zeit gelassen haben das Pferd zu beurteilen als bei der Eintragung. Dieses Jahr haben wir unseren Hengst nochmals auf einer Schau gezeigt auf der er von anerkannten Richtern einstimmig die Noten 18 im Typ, Kopf und Hals, und Gängen bekam, und nochmals einheitlich die 17 im Gebäude. Bei der Schau dieses Jahr war er nicht besonders vorbereitet, sondern von der Weide geholt und nur gewaschen. Ich verstehe das ganze nicht so ganz. Denn wenn die Richter auf Schauen einfach nur so mit hohen Noten rumschmeißen, ohne sich irgendwelche Gedanken zu machen welchen Wert eine Note haben soll. dann sollten die Pferde doch lieber gleich nur rangiert werden wie in den Fohlenklassen. Ich gehe gerne auf Schauen, möchte meine Pferde aber auch einigermaßen objektiv bewertet haben, ansonsten kann ich mich auch auf die Weide stellen, und meine Pferde durch meine rosarote Brille bewerten. Denn die Schau sollte nicht nur als Zeitverteib dienen. dafür ist die Freizeit die man hat zu wertvoll und die Unkosten einer Schau zu teuer.
Manuela
P.S. Ein Foto von der VHS (M.Groger)
auch wir hatten letztes Jahr das gleiche. Aufgrund nur "ausreichend " (5) im Rasse und Geschlechtstyp, brauchten wir unseren Hengst nicht mehr in der Halle vorstellen (was wir leider auch nicht getan haben, heute würden wir es machen), also Rausschmiß am harten Boden, obwohl er keine Note unter 5 hatte (Fundament sogar die Note 6). Ich muß zugeben, unserer Hengst (selber vorgeführt) reißt nicht die Augen auf und bläht die Nüstern wenn man ihn vor ein paar Menschen hinstellt. Er braucht schon ein bisschen mehr Aufregung (sollte am harten Boden auch nicht gefragt sein, dafür ist die Halle da). Komisch ist nur das er ca. 6 Wochen vor der Hengsteintragung von Mitgliedern der Körkomission auf einer Schau in allen 5 Kriterien die Note 17 bekam, und die Herren sich länger Zeit gelassen haben das Pferd zu beurteilen als bei der Eintragung. Dieses Jahr haben wir unseren Hengst nochmals auf einer Schau gezeigt auf der er von anerkannten Richtern einstimmig die Noten 18 im Typ, Kopf und Hals, und Gängen bekam, und nochmals einheitlich die 17 im Gebäude. Bei der Schau dieses Jahr war er nicht besonders vorbereitet, sondern von der Weide geholt und nur gewaschen. Ich verstehe das ganze nicht so ganz. Denn wenn die Richter auf Schauen einfach nur so mit hohen Noten rumschmeißen, ohne sich irgendwelche Gedanken zu machen welchen Wert eine Note haben soll. dann sollten die Pferde doch lieber gleich nur rangiert werden wie in den Fohlenklassen. Ich gehe gerne auf Schauen, möchte meine Pferde aber auch einigermaßen objektiv bewertet haben, ansonsten kann ich mich auch auf die Weide stellen, und meine Pferde durch meine rosarote Brille bewerten. Denn die Schau sollte nicht nur als Zeitverteib dienen. dafür ist die Freizeit die man hat zu wertvoll und die Unkosten einer Schau zu teuer.
Manuela
P.S. Ein Foto von der VHS (M.Groger)
Hi Sarah
Many experts watched the show and came to their conclusions. It is no use of trompeting names here,because such names are known.
What bothers me a bit that consistently the same judges judge one show after another, examining the same horses again and again, with some exceptions, when new ones are added, as appaently it took place in aachen.
I feel, that no horse should enter under any judge, which has judged such horse during past 6-8 months before.
While judges could make sound decisions, it is possible that errors incurr and a "Pinned down" horse will not have a chance again. A trainer once told me in Germany" This horse got 14 points for legs/fundament" and will now get always such points". I looked at that particular horse personally at its home and was amazed. This filly had excellent legs and movement and should have been given at least a 17, considering the now-aday judging system.
But I also saw at the Asil club show a top pinned horse ging so wide behind, it would need a six foot door get through. Yet, it received 17 points for this movement.
Matter of fact, most all received basically the same points,
which is truly amazing.
We can all complain, talk until we are blue in the face.
Only if concerned breeders/owners come forward and object to the present form of judging and or system, nothing will be done. But most of all, to change the "Annerkennung" system/judges which appears to be
failing.
Have a nice day
Hansi
Many experts watched the show and came to their conclusions. It is no use of trompeting names here,because such names are known.
What bothers me a bit that consistently the same judges judge one show after another, examining the same horses again and again, with some exceptions, when new ones are added, as appaently it took place in aachen.
I feel, that no horse should enter under any judge, which has judged such horse during past 6-8 months before.
While judges could make sound decisions, it is possible that errors incurr and a "Pinned down" horse will not have a chance again. A trainer once told me in Germany" This horse got 14 points for legs/fundament" and will now get always such points". I looked at that particular horse personally at its home and was amazed. This filly had excellent legs and movement and should have been given at least a 17, considering the now-aday judging system.
But I also saw at the Asil club show a top pinned horse ging so wide behind, it would need a six foot door get through. Yet, it received 17 points for this movement.
Matter of fact, most all received basically the same points,
which is truly amazing.
We can all complain, talk until we are blue in the face.
Only if concerned breeders/owners come forward and object to the present form of judging and or system, nothing will be done. But most of all, to change the "Annerkennung" system/judges which appears to be
failing.
Have a nice day
Hansi
Wir drehen uns im Kreis!!!! Denn genau dewegen gehen auch Hengste in die Zucht, die nicht prämiert sind.
Weil wir nämlich an der Richtigkeit der Entscheidung bei der Eintragung zweifeln! Vielleicht zu Recht??? <_<
Vielleicht auch nicht .
Gruß, Andrea
Weil wir nämlich an der Richtigkeit der Entscheidung bei der Eintragung zweifeln! Vielleicht zu Recht??? <_<
Vielleicht auch nicht
.Gruß, Andrea
Liebe Andrea
I habe immer etwas gegen ein "Richten" welches
conflict of interest nachweisen kann.
Richter fuer Eintragungen sollten selber keine Araber Zuechter sein oder von Araber Zuechtern bezahlt werden oder strong connections mit bestimmten Zuechtern/Eigentuemern haben. Wenn ungerechte Richtungen stattfanden, soll der Eigentuemer dass Recht haben das Pferd von einer independent Richtergruppe
nachrichten lassen und deratige Findungen dem Publikum bekanntgeben, genau wie eben "Nichteintragungen" bekannt gegeben werden.
Meine strenge Meinung
Hansi
I habe immer etwas gegen ein "Richten" welches
conflict of interest nachweisen kann.
Richter fuer Eintragungen sollten selber keine Araber Zuechter sein oder von Araber Zuechtern bezahlt werden oder strong connections mit bestimmten Zuechtern/Eigentuemern haben. Wenn ungerechte Richtungen stattfanden, soll der Eigentuemer dass Recht haben das Pferd von einer independent Richtergruppe
nachrichten lassen und deratige Findungen dem Publikum bekanntgeben, genau wie eben "Nichteintragungen" bekannt gegeben werden.
Meine strenge Meinung
Hansi
Oliver – well written! My thoughts - peer pressure. Peer pressure to conform is taking the reality out of the sE specifically and the Arabian Horse generally. I really do feel the essence of the misdirection involving the Arabian Horse is in the Arabian Horse Standard. People are not taught to review the Standard to extent that it allows (somewhat) for the variances the Breed offers, the image speaks a thousand words – the question being are these the right words? Should the words be read, and the image ignored?
I do agree – it is possible to have beauty and performance ability. But what is “beautiful” now wasn’t necessarily the beauty when the desertbred horse was first imported to the west. Compare photos and descriptions of people who were there. Pretty horses were the exception not necessarily the rule. These days we’ve made it the rule. And there’s the peer pressure to conform. If you don’t conform, ostracisation usually happens for one reason or another, with or without malice.
One thought though… the Bedouin, to my knowledge, only needed a horse which could perform well in raid (ghazu), be frugal and loyal. They were a source of income, a mode of travel and on occasions a food source. Exceptions were noted in history in various ways, as great athletes are today. But not all humans as Arabian horses are elite athletes. The tendency however, is to expect the Arabian Horse to all be elite.
I do agree – it is possible to have beauty and performance ability. But what is “beautiful” now wasn’t necessarily the beauty when the desertbred horse was first imported to the west. Compare photos and descriptions of people who were there. Pretty horses were the exception not necessarily the rule. These days we’ve made it the rule. And there’s the peer pressure to conform. If you don’t conform, ostracisation usually happens for one reason or another, with or without malice.
One thought though… the Bedouin, to my knowledge, only needed a horse which could perform well in raid (ghazu), be frugal and loyal. They were a source of income, a mode of travel and on occasions a food source. Exceptions were noted in history in various ways, as great athletes are today. But not all humans as Arabian horses are elite athletes. The tendency however, is to expect the Arabian Horse to all be elite.
Dear Diane
YOu said it well. However, not all can be "elite" this is why there is a grading system, IN ANYTHING IN LIFE. Grading is done among race horses on the track, etc.
Grading is done in human performances as well.
But it is the "grading" which should be performed accurately. those who have this task, do not have an easy job at all and will always be under scrunity. Their honor and reputation is at stake. They carry great responsibilities. They can either make or break a horse, or for that matter, anything which is being graded.
Have a nice day
Hansi
YOu said it well. However, not all can be "elite" this is why there is a grading system, IN ANYTHING IN LIFE. Grading is done among race horses on the track, etc.
Grading is done in human performances as well.
But it is the "grading" which should be performed accurately. those who have this task, do not have an easy job at all and will always be under scrunity. Their honor and reputation is at stake. They carry great responsibilities. They can either make or break a horse, or for that matter, anything which is being graded.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I doubt that shows will draw more spectators with performance competition. As I saw it in aachen this time were I saw compete really excellent riders infront of empty stands. And stands they had! Most decided to watch the halter competition.
Thank you Oliver for quoting Mr. Douglas Marshall in your article. I find it amazing that he put so much empasize on sound legs like von Szandtner did. Food for thought for all of us!
Thank you Oliver for quoting Mr. Douglas Marshall in your article. I find it amazing that he put so much empasize on sound legs like von Szandtner did. Food for thought for all of us!
Dear Oliver
Where do I find the articel you wrote, many are refering too?
Thanks kindly
Hansi
Where do I find the articel you wrote, many are refering too?
Thanks kindly
Hansi
Hi Hansi,
in the international section you will find Olivers article "born to perform" or " where have all the muqatamms gone"
Kind regards
Christian Kesseböhmer
Al Muntaha Arabians
in the international section you will find Olivers article "born to perform" or " where have all the muqatamms gone"
Kind regards
Christian Kesseböhmer
Al Muntaha Arabians
No Hansi, you have to click the "BACKGROUND" button to get to this article. Douglas B. Marshall was described by you often as a true horseman and from what he said about legs I say "Yes!!!! He is!!!"
Douglas B. Marshall was described by you often as a true horseman and from what he said about legs I say "Yes!!!! He is!!!"
Thanks christian, I will look at it.
Have a nice day
Hansi
Have a nice day
Hansi
I can't understand why Mrs Heck-Melnyk always is active in all discussions with huge amount of posts even when she
a) was not at Aachen and never saw the "whipping experiment" for herself (see Aachen threads)
had not read the article "Born to perform"
It would be wiser if you would first try to gather the right information and later potsting your opinion.
a) was not at Aachen and never saw the "whipping experiment" for herself (see Aachen threads)
had not read the article "Born to perform"It would be wiser if you would first try to gather the right information and later potsting your opinion.
Great thought provoking article Oliver—congratulations. I think that you are absolutely right. There are very few American SE farms that consistantly produce their horses under saddle in some division or other. I frequently see Imperial horses competing in Dressage and Show Hack. Jennifer Parsons from Canada does a lot with her horses in Performance, as does Martha Lucas—President of the Pyramid Society, with endurance. Hansi breeds good SE performance horses, but I have yet to see more than one competing in performance so far, but then she's in Florida and I'm in Texas.
The performance classes at the Egyptian Event have improved greatly since the first time I attended ten years ago. They have since added dressage and endurance. Being a riding person myself, I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with form to function in mind, as well as being true to type. Liz Salmon
The performance classes at the Egyptian Event have improved greatly since the first time I attended ten years ago. They have since added dressage and endurance. Being a riding person myself, I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with form to function in mind, as well as being true to type. Liz Salmon
Dear Liz:
I read your post and I wanted to underscore a few words that you express:
"I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with from to function in mind, as well as being true to type"
Alone, this statement might not be especially meaningful but you use a few examples, like Imperial, Etaya, and Whitehaven Plantation to further illustrate what it means to be a good athlete and yet, still have the unmistakeable Arabian Horse look. These breeders have not compromised Arabian Horse type to get better conformation or better movement. Their horses can be on the grounds of an open show and would never be mistaken for Thoroughbreds or a warmblood cross.
And that is my concern with the sporthorse movement. Don Stine has pictures of the Sporthorse Nationals on his website. I looked at some of the pictures last night and felt that my concern is a bit justified. Maybe those are unfair words for me to express and I realize that in order to change some of the unhealthy trends, one has to start somewhere but these horses....Oh my. Where is the essence of Arabian Horse type?
When the saddleseat movement took hold in America, suddenly, all the unique characteristics of the Arabian Horse did not matter. People wanted the saddleseat action. So, breeders started paying more attention to "park" and "English Pleasure" movement and the conformation that enables horses to be more successful for that kind of movement. They not only changed our breed but convinced many people that it was true Arabian movement. The effects of this thinking still plague us today.
So, here we have another movement. And will breeders start producing horses that have "sporthorse movement" at the expense of Arabian Horse type? From where I stand, I see another "yellow brick road" that leads to disappointment, as we begin yet another fad that jeopardizes the unique look that makes this breed famous and unlike any other.
So, as we all exchange opinions on this forum and lament the loss of a good moving horse, I hope we understand how critical Arabian Horse type is and what a devastating loss it would be to lose the identifying trademark of the breed.
Thanks Liz for being one of the only people in the last few posts to mention type positively.
Ralph
I read your post and I wanted to underscore a few words that you express:
"I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with from to function in mind, as well as being true to type"
Alone, this statement might not be especially meaningful but you use a few examples, like Imperial, Etaya, and Whitehaven Plantation to further illustrate what it means to be a good athlete and yet, still have the unmistakeable Arabian Horse look. These breeders have not compromised Arabian Horse type to get better conformation or better movement. Their horses can be on the grounds of an open show and would never be mistaken for Thoroughbreds or a warmblood cross.
And that is my concern with the sporthorse movement. Don Stine has pictures of the Sporthorse Nationals on his website. I looked at some of the pictures last night and felt that my concern is a bit justified. Maybe those are unfair words for me to express and I realize that in order to change some of the unhealthy trends, one has to start somewhere but these horses....Oh my. Where is the essence of Arabian Horse type?
When the saddleseat movement took hold in America, suddenly, all the unique characteristics of the Arabian Horse did not matter. People wanted the saddleseat action. So, breeders started paying more attention to "park" and "English Pleasure" movement and the conformation that enables horses to be more successful for that kind of movement. They not only changed our breed but convinced many people that it was true Arabian movement. The effects of this thinking still plague us today.
So, here we have another movement. And will breeders start producing horses that have "sporthorse movement" at the expense of Arabian Horse type? From where I stand, I see another "yellow brick road" that leads to disappointment, as we begin yet another fad that jeopardizes the unique look that makes this breed famous and unlike any other.
So, as we all exchange opinions on this forum and lament the loss of a good moving horse, I hope we understand how critical Arabian Horse type is and what a devastating loss it would be to lose the identifying trademark of the breed.
Thanks Liz for being one of the only people in the last few posts to mention type positively.
Ralph
Good morning Liz
It appears to me that some people think that "sportshorse movements" are something different to what an Arabian horse should have. May be you can explain that "sportshorse movements" means "proper gaits"
which are identical to all breeds, with the exception of those bred for a particular thing, such as the hackneys,
Saddlebreds- although they still have to have a walk,trott and canter. If this were not so, why would SE's have been and still are successfull in competition? Does a ZT AliBaba, posibly one of the greatest race horses and his offspring look very type, unmistakenly Arabian horse? I can name dozens of others of yesterday and today.
The Arabians we saw in Turky, excellent horses, with excellent gaits, also looked Arabian, which they are. Mind you, they did not have a dished head by enlarge, but then such should not be the deciding factor of what looks like an Arabian horse or not. It is in my opinion still the "silhouette".
May be you can explain better, so that once and for all the definition "Sportshorse" is properly understood.
Have a nice day
Hansi
.
.
It appears to me that some people think that "sportshorse movements" are something different to what an Arabian horse should have. May be you can explain that "sportshorse movements" means "proper gaits"
which are identical to all breeds, with the exception of those bred for a particular thing, such as the hackneys,
Saddlebreds- although they still have to have a walk,trott and canter. If this were not so, why would SE's have been and still are successfull in competition? Does a ZT AliBaba, posibly one of the greatest race horses and his offspring look very type, unmistakenly Arabian horse? I can name dozens of others of yesterday and today.
The Arabians we saw in Turky, excellent horses, with excellent gaits, also looked Arabian, which they are. Mind you, they did not have a dished head by enlarge, but then such should not be the deciding factor of what looks like an Arabian horse or not. It is in my opinion still the "silhouette".
May be you can explain better, so that once and for all the definition "Sportshorse" is properly understood.
Have a nice day
Hansi
.
.
I'll have a go at discribing true gaits for any breed of light performance horse, except as Hansi says, Hackneys or Saddlebreds for that matter. I was taught this in the UK and still judge by these principals today. In all paces the horses back needs to be rounded and supple, with the flexion at the poll and not halfway down his neck. Any sign of tension in the back, or poor conformation will adversely effect all the paces. Having judged the ridden classes in the UK for 12 years, I know only too well after riding many many Arabians, how poor conformation can affect the performance of horses. All paces should have a steady rhythm and tempo—not fast one minute and slower the next.
WALK. This should be an active 4 beat pace, with the hind feet stepping well over the prints of the front feet, by at least 15-30cms (6-12 inches). This shows the potential for good hind quarter engagement. The shoulders and elbows should be free to enable a good reach of stride driven by the power of the hind quarters.
TROT. A true diagonal 2 beat pace, with the hind legs engaging and reaching forward well under the body. Again the shoulders and elbows must have the freedom to stretch forward with a good length of stride. When the horse extends in the trot, a V is formed under the horses body with limbs that are not extended. In other words, it will be the left fore and left hind that form the V, while the right fore is extended forward and the right hind extended behind. A short choppy stride or excessive knee action is absloutely undesirable, and is not true to Arabian type of movement. In hand, the Arabian should show some elevation and lift of the whole body. This will also appear under saddle in advanced training of dressage. Sometimes horses that display a good trot in hand, will not always show it under saddle at first. They need to be well muscled with slow steady training.
CANTER. This is a 3 beat pace, with the horse again well engaged behind, with freedom in the shoulder into a reaching, ground covering stride, without being on his forehand. The appearance should be of the horse going slightly uphill,with a light forehand, not downhill with a heavy forehand. It should be balanced and cadenced.
This is what the Sport Horse judges were looking for at the Arabian Sport Horse Nationals recently. Most of the horses showed in hand as well as at least 2 classes under saddle. It's certainly what I looked for when judging in the UK. Liz Salmon
WALK. This should be an active 4 beat pace, with the hind feet stepping well over the prints of the front feet, by at least 15-30cms (6-12 inches). This shows the potential for good hind quarter engagement. The shoulders and elbows should be free to enable a good reach of stride driven by the power of the hind quarters.
TROT. A true diagonal 2 beat pace, with the hind legs engaging and reaching forward well under the body. Again the shoulders and elbows must have the freedom to stretch forward with a good length of stride. When the horse extends in the trot, a V is formed under the horses body with limbs that are not extended. In other words, it will be the left fore and left hind that form the V, while the right fore is extended forward and the right hind extended behind. A short choppy stride or excessive knee action is absloutely undesirable, and is not true to Arabian type of movement. In hand, the Arabian should show some elevation and lift of the whole body. This will also appear under saddle in advanced training of dressage. Sometimes horses that display a good trot in hand, will not always show it under saddle at first. They need to be well muscled with slow steady training.
CANTER. This is a 3 beat pace, with the horse again well engaged behind, with freedom in the shoulder into a reaching, ground covering stride, without being on his forehand. The appearance should be of the horse going slightly uphill,with a light forehand, not downhill with a heavy forehand. It should be balanced and cadenced.
This is what the Sport Horse judges were looking for at the Arabian Sport Horse Nationals recently. Most of the horses showed in hand as well as at least 2 classes under saddle. It's certainly what I looked for when judging in the UK. Liz Salmon
Liz:
Thank you for the very thorough descriptions of the "gaits" that are required for sportshorse competition. I recognize your efforts in commiting this to type. However, you fell right into a pair of manipulative hands. I am the "some people" that Hansi referred to. However, as the owner of a mare, who was campaigned in entry level dressage for two years, I would think that I have a good understanding of the gaits that any horse, regardless of breed, should exhibit. I also have a good understanding of Arabian Horse type and find it lacking in today's Arabian sporthorse. I am already noticing the results of the "sportshorse movement" which confirms the concern that I felt about the changing emphasis of producing Arabian Horses to specifically producing a horse that is capable of delivering the movements required to win in modern competitive dressage or other sport horse disciplines. AHA is placing ads in magazines like Practical Horseman and Dressage Today that market the "lite" warmblood, that is a horse of Arabian and warmblood lines. In articles, people talk of the competitiveness of Arabian-warmblood crosses over the purebred. I just can't endorse a movement that I find as potentially destructive to the Arabian breed, as other movements have been, like the saddleseat/saddlebred movement and to a lesser extent, the stockhorse/Quarterhorse movement.
Ralph
Thank you for the very thorough descriptions of the "gaits" that are required for sportshorse competition. I recognize your efforts in commiting this to type. However, you fell right into a pair of manipulative hands. I am the "some people" that Hansi referred to. However, as the owner of a mare, who was campaigned in entry level dressage for two years, I would think that I have a good understanding of the gaits that any horse, regardless of breed, should exhibit. I also have a good understanding of Arabian Horse type and find it lacking in today's Arabian sporthorse. I am already noticing the results of the "sportshorse movement" which confirms the concern that I felt about the changing emphasis of producing Arabian Horses to specifically producing a horse that is capable of delivering the movements required to win in modern competitive dressage or other sport horse disciplines. AHA is placing ads in magazines like Practical Horseman and Dressage Today that market the "lite" warmblood, that is a horse of Arabian and warmblood lines. In articles, people talk of the competitiveness of Arabian-warmblood crosses over the purebred. I just can't endorse a movement that I find as potentially destructive to the Arabian breed, as other movements have been, like the saddleseat/saddlebred movement and to a lesser extent, the stockhorse/Quarterhorse movement.
Ralph
thanks Liz, this is well explained. Conformation indeed shows up in the movement of the horse, any horse.
If some the Arabians, SE's ,did not have the conformation, they would not have reached the Grand Prix Level, doing it well.Or for that matter in jumping (although the Arabian is not a high jumper), or in racing and endurance. The endurance rider is very interested in a long stride, which again is the result of conformation.
A wide chested horse usually straddles, (legs paddling/winging sideways) loses forward reach and a horse going to wide behind can not exercise its driving forward power well.
thanks again, and have a nice day
Hansi
But I also know, that horses not trained properly (gymansticts)- can noodle the gaits away.
If some the Arabians, SE's ,did not have the conformation, they would not have reached the Grand Prix Level, doing it well.Or for that matter in jumping (although the Arabian is not a high jumper), or in racing and endurance. The endurance rider is very interested in a long stride, which again is the result of conformation.
A wide chested horse usually straddles, (legs paddling/winging sideways) loses forward reach and a horse going to wide behind can not exercise its driving forward power well.
thanks again, and have a nice day
Hansi
But I also know, that horses not trained properly (gymansticts)- can noodle the gaits away.
Ralph, did you got to the Sport Horse Nationals ? There were some very lovely typey Purebreds there. Corky Sutton was showing an exquisitely typey gelding of El Shaklan lines, who has had many Championships in open Halter and Hunter Pleasure. Bazy's stallion AM Power Raid was another, and the British bred Magic Domino. Marilyn Mellls Russian bred horses were all Arab too.
I'm not in favour of the Purebred Arabian becoming a lookalike Warmblood any more that I am a Saddlebred lookalike, however a typey Arabian with substance, good limbs and movement should be the goal of any breeder. I certainly see this far more in Australia and Britain than anywhere else. Generally the American breeders tend to go off at a tangent in particular directions to suit their division. Liz Salmon
I'm not in favour of the Purebred Arabian becoming a lookalike Warmblood any more that I am a Saddlebred lookalike, however a typey Arabian with substance, good limbs and movement should be the goal of any breeder. I certainly see this far more in Australia and Britain than anywhere else. Generally the American breeders tend to go off at a tangent in particular directions to suit their division. Liz Salmon
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