Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: National Show Participation In Your Country?
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - ‹bersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
mckulley1
I have been told it is only about 2-3% of the USA Arabian horse owners who show at the class A and National level. That is such a small percentage....primarily the rest of the population doing home, trail, and open show activities.

I am curious to find out what the percentages are for other countries? Are we about the same as everyone else? Or is there a lesser or more active participation in showing around the world?

Thoughts?
aliaalhussein
I think 99 per cent of the Arabian owners here show as well, but most also do endurance and some unofficial racing and some do showjumping with them also-oh yes,and tent pegging of course!
mckulley1
WOW, 99% show in a rated class in your country! Now that is impressive. What is it that attracts them to showing? By finding out how other countries are more successful with getting their Arabian horse owners into the showring.....perhaps we can improve our own?
Liz Salmon
The National show in Jordan that I judged not only had good sized classes, but good quality too.
mckulley1
Yes, but what are these other countries doing to get such high percentage of arabian horse owners to show that we (USA) are not doing?
Liz Salmon
It's probably cheaper and less political. Most of the judging uses the European scoring system.
mckulley1
Now there is a good point?

Would anyone like to volunteer how much they spend for one horse in a Halter class at one rated show in their country?
AAArabians
Mc Cully,

I believe that the Egyptian Event USA would be far more
of a comparable to other countries national shows.
JFYI our Futurity class at the Egyptian Event consisted of 54
fillies! I have been to the class A shows in Texas
and saw the futurity class had 3 colts???
I am not sure were our open shows have gone wrong!
Maybe we should format our open shows after the Egyptian Event!
Also other countries do not have half arabians filling half their classes!!!


KR
Candi
mckulley1
That is very true though I'm not trying to compare WHAT is in the classes. I'm trying to compare the apples to apples of a rated Halter class for purebred HERE vs THERE.

I have to say, I am very disappointed in the reply to this thread. Is it a secret what other countries do????
elsbetha
Well here in sweden the numbers are steadily decreasing - 68 horses came forward this year, an alltime low.
In Poland it was the biggest nationals ever, 160 horses listed in the catalogue - on one day. It finished at 11 p.m.! For the first time ever they had colt classes so the first ever genuine national champion colt was judged - in pouring rain I might add!
I heard that at the national show in Norway 20 horses were judged!
Please someone from Norway confirm that this was true - it seems ubelievable!.
aliaalhussein
I think here its that very few breeders are overly concerned with winning- they LOVE to of course but are interested in each others horses and dont get upset when others do well, and we DO try hard to have judges who are not political, and ask them to really look at the horse and not the "Production", as far as possible. Also its a chance to get together and "have a go", so even horses NOT in normal "Show conditiopn", come,and small studs often do very well. Perhaps being a smaller community (we are a small countyr!) helps.Its a nice time to sit and talk horses and watch horses etc...lots of owners children show for their stables, and that makes it more personal and maybe less cutthroat?
Marilee
I love the last response. Also cheaper and less political is a great answer.

I think many people look at show results with mixed emotions. It is expensive, and can be potentially harmful to the horse. Some people want a win at any price, as if that justifies the worth of an animal. The + and / after some horses'' names are correlated to the money and time the owner has to haul that horse all over to show them under multiple judges or maybe multiple disciplines. A great horse might be a show winner, but a show winner is not always the best representative of his/her breed or the best trained or best mover that day for that judge.

So I find it encouraging that there are many out there who are interested in show results, but not obsessed with them, and are not driven to breed to a horse solely for show record, but for the value as a breeding animal or to improve breed characteristics or complement their mare/stallion. Would you take a valuable horse far away to show them for limited return or no return? It does not guarantee success or more money or more breedings. There are many show champions who I would not own or breed to. So to each his own. I think more education and more grass roots promotion in a non-showing environment is the key to helping our Arabians. Showing in open or breed events is but a small part of that.
TommyH
It's correct there was only some 20 horses on our National show this year. Of course it's an extremly low number but there is a reason.

The"national" show is a rather new invention as we have a larger International B-Show as well every year (had for quite some years) with good size classes. We have appr. 700 arabians in Norway and usually have appr. 70 horses from Norway in the show plus 30-40 from other countries wich together makes a good number.
Most of the owners does however several performance disiplines with their horses and only a handful of horses in our country are "showhorses" alone.
mckulley1
Thank you for taking this in a great direction!

So, for Norway they have about a 10% turnout....about how much do you think it costs someone to go to this bigger B show with one horse?

I love the discussion regarding Jordan....I wish OUR shows were like a great big barbecue get together!
diane
The AHSA suggests that for the Australian Arabian Championships (ownership exhibiting an Arabian (purebred / derivative)), one of the top class shows and the only one run by the AHSA, is approx. 13%
TommyH
The costs to show at our International B-show is quite modest, I would say about $ 300 plus expences for gas, hotel/camping and food (wich one needs anyway!) If one choose to have the horse(s) in proffesional training and shown by a pro the expences increases easily to $ 3000.

Just a short comment about the european judging system - currently there is a heated debate about political judging in europe and our system is NOT in itself a garantie for fair judging. The system is NOT any better than the judge using it in my opinion. This altso goes for the comperative system, wich in fact has it advantedges.
Basilisk
The AHS National Show in Britain is, I believe, the biggest single breed show in Europe. There are no entry qualifications: any member of the AHS can show there. For all except the Futurity classes, the single judge comparative method is used, and frankly, preferred by the majority: at least you know whether or not a judge likes your horse, and there is no facade of impartiality as happens with the European points system.

I used to think the points system was fairer, but over the years I have come to realise it is seriously flawed. At least with the single judge comparative system, you know where you stand, and you can always tell yourself the judge needs a guide dog if they put your horse down at the bottom cool.gif

Keren
elsbetha
I certainly agree with Tommy. Judging in Europe is getting more and more political.
We see the same judges on the show circuit year after year. Many judges also have the possibility to influence the choice of judges in their own country and of course they recommend each other.
The combination of big spender domination and of political judging is killing the showring, pity it used to be fun.
I don't think it is right to have a national show with 20 entries.
Of those 20 horses 8 now have national titles - national champion and national reserve champion. A national title is the ultimate but in this case with no competition it can hardly be called the ultimate. My opinion is that a show should have at least 50 entries to qualify as a National Championship.
Aimbri
I have just received a notice that our local, Class A Fall Show next weekend has been cancelled (again) due to lack of entries. The spring show was smaller than usual, the summer show also a bit smaller. There are virtually NO horses showing in halter. Most are shown in the working western and western pleasure divisions. Most of the locals who go on to show at the Regional and National level, also do so in Working Western (trail, reining and working cow).

About the Canadian Nationals, it's my guess that 10% or less of the participants are actually Canadian. The vast majority are actually Americans, mostly from the big barns. The Canadian Nationals has become a very lovely practice for the US Nationals in October, in a lot of cases. It DOES make for a competitive show and it IS nice to see a lot of the top horses, but it would ALSO be nice if we had our OWN national show. Many years ago they had Royal Red classes. To qualify, your horse had to be Canadian owned, and Canadian shown. I'm not sure why those classes were abandoned, but they were often looked upon as the "Special Olympics" for Canadians, as the EE in Kentucky is sometimes referred to for Egyptian Horses.

How to improve things? I'm not sure. The AOTR and ATR classes in the most popular divisions (Western and Hunter) are packed, so amateurs ARE competing. I watched the Showmanship classes and they were fairly full, too, so the kids are participating. The halter classes were down in numbers. Not even enough for a full Top Ten in many cases. Some of the Futurity classes and Jackpot classes were filled, but I am calling filled 19 or more horses, so that there is a full Top Ten. In the Stallion Halter AOTH there were only TWO entries, so one is Champion and the other has nothing.

Suggestions???

Jeannette
lionsdenfarm
I think another problem with showing class A here is that we are trained to think we need to have a pro trained horse to compete at this level. How many times have we been told that we can train our own horses to do whatever it is we want them to do, but then be told by the same people that to be sucessful in showing we need to hire a trainer at 600-1000 per month and leave that horse with them for at least a year? dry.gif

Many of us can also teach our horses to stand up well for halter but refuse to teach them the hard stance that is common in our halter arena. We automatically think we can not show because of it or if we do show we will just be wasting our time.

Sport horse seems to be the way to go but it also is geared toward the dressage types which in some areas of the country just don't exist. Try telling someone who ONLY rides western to try sport horse and see what happens!!

I think our current system fails the average owner--the misconception that you need someone to train your horse, the high costs of showing, the idea that if you have a non popular pedigree you won't do well, etc. But also, within our own circle we keep each other down too with just how we communicate with each other.

If someone wins that we don't like we automatically start trashing the owner, person who showed the horse, the bloodline, etc. I think that weighs on many of us to not show or get started. It is easier to complain from the side lines or not go. And with the cost of showing--stay home and buy another load of hay!

I do believe if many of our local shows were counted there would be a lot more Arabians being shown statistically. I know there are ways to get some of these local shows counted but where I am at in the middle of Minnesota, most of the small saddle clubs do not meet the criteria required by AHA to be counted as a participating show. There are SEVERAL Arabians qualified for state 4-H this year as well as the WSCA shows which are the local shows governing body. We also have several people who trail ride (not competitively) on Arabians in our area.

Not sure how to get more into Class A, there are too many other ways to enjoy the horses without going broke and dealing with the back talk and stress of showing. Maybe that would be a good place to start?

Also, "old fashoined" shows with pot luck suppers and everyone helping each other have left. Perhaps bringing those good old times back in a class A setting would help? Not by having big barn parties either--but by having a tent set up and everyone openly invited to share in the food and roast hotdogs together. Just a thought anyway.

Tracy
Mike
Whilst the point system isn't perfect, it is I believe the fairest. There are a few caveats to bare in mind though, a horse with a straight profile will never score higher than 18 for "head & neck" or "type" no matter how good a horse it is. Conversely horses that score very highly for "head & neck" and "type" always score well to very well for "movement" and "legs" This means that a superior horse that happens to have a straight profile will always lose out to lesser horses with dished profiles. mad.gif But that's the way the cookie crumbles smile.gif It is also worth noting that any movement defects, (dishing, plaiting etc) count against the "leg" score not the "movement" one, so that a horse that doesn't move straight can still legitimately score very highly for movement, the problem is that usually its "leg" score won't be affected either, particularly if it scores 19's & 20's for "type" and "head & neck"

The single judge comparative system as used in the UK is the most efficient method of judging large classes, however it does mean that the opinion of one person on one day, at a National Show can have a profound impact on breeding decisions for the next two to three years. Depending on the judge, this influence can be either beneficial or detrimental to the breed as a whole! biggrin.gif

Mike
julieM
No Mike its not the fairest system.
Why, for all of the reasons that you have just expained in your text.
But you hit it right on the head when you say detrimental to the breed. OMO. mad.gif
Head and neck should not be judged together, judges have to start judging legs and true movement.
I believe that the european judging system has created a different type of arabian horse, lacking harmony and looking like pieces of horses stuck together. OMO : To much false conditioning, no real muscle structure and necks that are the perfect shape of the neck sweat (without the small piece that used go just behind the ears) the flat 10 cm, a true mark of the arabian horse that is longer seems to exist.

But then I can understand, if you take for example the case of future owners and breeders, it is usually at the shows that they become interested, so obviously the horses at the shows and the line up becomes the norm for tomorrow.

Juliem
julieM
oops, detrimental to the breed, the european judging system that is OMO.
and before anyone asks, no I am not in agreement with the usage of the neck sweat. I believe that is
extreemly cruel to use this type of equipment. mad.gif

julieM
julieM
No Mike its not the fairest system.
Why, for all of the reasons that you have just expained in your text.
But you hit it right on the head when you say detrimental to the breed. OMO. mad.gif
Head and neck should not be judged together, judges have to start judging legs and true movement.
I believe that the european judging system has created a different type of arabian horse, lacking harmony and looking like pieces of horses stuck together. OMO : To much false conditioning, no real muscle structure and necks that are the perfect shape of the neck sweat (without the small piece that used go just behind the ears) the flat 10 cm, a true mark of the arabian horse that is longer seems to exist.

But then I can understand, if you take for example the case of future owners and breeders, it is usually at the shows that they become interested, so obviously the horses at the shows and the line up becomes the norm for tomorrow.

Juliem
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.