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zandri
Dear all SE breeders please could you be so kind I dont breed pure SE although i do use SE stallions in my breeding program my friend recently bought a SE stallion Arabest Shaam i consider him one of the best SE stallions currently in South Africa however every time a SE breeder phones to book a breeding they change their minds when they here Basiliks is in his pedigree he is clasified as SE Asil Al Khamsa Blue list could you explain what is so terrible about this mare and maybe some one perhaps has a photo of her kind regards zandri
Dr Daniel Wigger
Basilisk has been discussed here in abundance and there are photos in the regarding threads also. Just use the search-function. She is SE and asil and has never had a different status. Nothing is more terrible today than rumours of newcomers who didn't do their homework properly.
Anne-Louise
QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Sep 11 2007, 08:57 PM)
She is SE and asil and has never had a different status. Nothing is more terrible today than rumours of newcomers who didn't do their homework properly.
*


Bravo, Dr. Wigger, and ditto - I agree completely.
Anne-Louise
Echo1
Basilisk is Straight Egyptian, and is considered an Asil horse as Dr Wigger has mentioned. She is also listed as an Al Khamsa horse. Basilisk is not however, considered a *Blue List horse or qualifies for *Blue List Eligible.

There is a photo of her in the Al Khamsa II book. smile.gif
zandri
thank you for all the replies i will go and look up the info we do not want to spread rumors and we also had it that Arabest Shaam is Se Asil Al Khamsa and Blue list here in RSA there is less than 300 SE horses like i said he is one of the best SE stallions in RSA and we simply wanted to know why SE and Asil breeders prefer to not have her in a pedigree she is only once in his pedigree and so far back it just seemed such a waste that people choose to through this stallions precious bloodlines away over just one horse have a nice day z
Oliver
Dear Zandri

I hope you have found the old Basilisk topics.
If not, please just CLICK HERE to find one very interesting thread about her.
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Hi all,


I agree to some extent that some horses that have questionable pedigrees have had comments about them made multiple times... And we have pages and pages of flaming comments regarding them...

I take offense to the term "newcomer not doing their homework"...What kind elitist BS is that.. As breeders we should be taking them under our wing and welcoming them with open arms...I think it is a breeders job to let their customers know what is favorable, rare, or controversial in a pedigree. A newcomer I am not, but WE NEED THEM.. To be so glib with a response to an honest question is one of the things that is wrong with our industry... We wonder why they don't flock to our beautiful horses, maybe it because we act like asses when they ask question...

Zandri,

What I can tell you about horses in general that have some element in their pedigree that someone finds objectionable USUALLY pertains to some sort of politics.. This industry has TONS and TONS of it... If the horse is noted as Straight Egyptian then in the eyes of the Pyramid Society it is Straight Egyptian... If the stallion you note is a prime specimen then shame on Straight Egyptian breeders that choose not to use him due to an element in his pedigree...Another thing I will say is the Politics have play in marketability and that might be what these breeders fear they will breed a nice foal that they can't market... This happens all the time... I am sorry your post was greeted with the label newcomer.... It sounds as though you have interest in Straight Egyptians and I hope the response didn't sour you... Tracy
Echo1
Tracy,
I think you misunderstood the responses. I think what is being said, there may be newcomers telling the stallion owner that if the horse has Basilisk, then it is not SE. Which would not be correct information. Basilisk is SE, and a horse , even though not Blue List can still qualify for SE and Asil.
Chill.. biggrin.gif
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Sorry I guess I can chill,

In the tradition of the late great Gilda Radner when she portrayed Emily Latella...I must say once the light bulb goes on... Never mind...

I thought Zandri was being called "a newcomer not doing her homework"... You have to admit though most of the politics involved with some of the horses that have been soiled by rumor was started by breeders that have a few years under their belt and may be being parroted as fact by newcomers that would take the word of one of the seasoned breeders as gospel... When in most cases the rumor has more to do with preference and its justification and therefore political rather than a factual probelm with the horse...

Zandri... I would suggest the next time your friend runs into this road block perhaps they could have some questions to ask in regards to problems with Basilisk... Or even ask questions to develop a profile of who has interest, how long they have been in the business, what they are breeding for... Your friend might find even before negotiations on breeding that the mare doesn't meet their goal for the stallion..

Once again the light goes on... Why would a breeder worth their salt have an identifiable problem with a certain horse and not do the pedigree research involved.. Make the call to the stallion owner and then do the research and find out this element is involved... Yes, Yes I see the big picture, but it was an
honest mistake... Dr. Wigger, I am sorry I mistook your advice to Zandri... Tracy
HLM
I cant believe what I am reading, people refuse to breed with Basilisk in the Pedigree. Well, we might as well then cut thousands out. this is so ridiculous.
If we were to count all the rumors about so many horses we hardly have anything left, right?

Basilisk has no probelms, she is Asil and an SE mare..

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
Tracy,
Not to worry, smile.gif I remember Emily Latella...'nevermind'. laugh.gif

Hansi,
Yes, well, Blue list or not, should not make a total determination on a SE horse unless you are going to get extremely picky on horses. I think it is all a matter of how a breeder prioritized the qualities of a horse. Some start with tiny details, others look at the big picture first, I suppose. On the grand scale of things, Blue List would be way far down on the list of priorities smile.gif .
Heirloom Arabian Stud
BLUE List or not, has got nothing to do with being SE or asil,, If my memory serves me,, This "blue list thing" was one persons opnion? got nothing to do with a good horse,
Most of my major stock has this blood, if its hurt or deluted, than all i can say,, is it dont matter now,!


mike
DemelzaH
huh.gif
Echo1
Hi Mike,

I understand what you're saying, but before Al Khamsa, Asil club or TPS there was the catalog of horses which was *Blue List. So it was a good piece of information at that time. Lots of folks since then used this information to track horses before all these other organizations came to be since we all didn't have access to a datasource or stud books , etc.
It served it's purpose pretty well back then. Today we have more information to go on. So it shouldn't be looked at as a thorn in someone's side. Rather, with understanding of what it meant at that time in history.

Some breeders who 'only' breed *Blue list eligible horses, still reference this. To them it may mean something, to others who do not, it doesn't mean anything. I suppose same as those who breed only SE compared to those who breed simply purebred Arabians, whether they be Egyptian or not.

In any case, to each their own as you suggest as well. In today's pedigrees Basilisk has to be sooo far back in the pedigree it wouldn't make or break a horse in how it looks. smile.gif
Heirloom Arabian Stud
I answer this ,with the origional poster and questions in mind,
Most of my stock, includeing my senior stallion are considerd, 99.798% blue list, that other lack of percentage is because of this line, Thats along way back, and now in 2007 ,has got hardly nothing to do with the horse standing in front of you,

Most know my senior stallion and within reason, cant tell me, that he hasnt proven himself, over and over again, BLUE List is a label,,, much like all the others, only important to thos interested in the purity of that line??

As I said,, the blue list thing,,,, was one persons opnion, and NOt included in a now closed list! right?


Just something to think about

Mike
Echo1
Well you know Mike, I heard that Basilisk was considered 'sublisted' and there may come a day when the horse is going to be considered Blue List because as it was years ago, there were several ways to prove a horses' authenticity. One by pedigree and the other if it were to breed true to what it is claimed as being.

We don't know what the future brings. For example, back in those days they cataloged horses by pen and paper and sent correspondence in the mail. Today we have the internet and email and forums, where we can exchange info instantly.

We can minimize the signficance of Blue List and say it is just one person's opinion. I agree. Keep in mind too, she compiled all this information from a multitude of sources, so I do consider it to be more than one person's opinion on horses, even though she had the final say on who she entered in her notebooks.
But considering the fact that she was 99% correct in her opinion to identify a group of horses who are now SE, Asil and helped spur forward such research groups as Al Khamsa, it shows me she had some valid opinions which were worth considering. So she missed one horse.

Still, I don't think it hurts to entertain some of her writings or ideas. One of Ms. Ott's genuine concerns was that we as breeders didn't outcross all these pure mares to horses of other descent who were not Arabians. She was an original preservationist in those days only wanting to make folks aware that there was not an endless supply of Asil mares in this world. Until she started listing all the horses as best she could we never really had a good picture of the status of Arabian horses.

I think what I'm trying to say is that as conscientious breeders we should keep aware of what is going on as a whole- globally -with these horses. I sure as heck don't always agree wtih everything, nor does anyone else. Some things we can change, some we cannot, but in either case we should always strive to do the best we can in any situation.

So I wouldn't dismiss the entire concept of *Blue List. Instead, I would recognize the fact she most likely missed out on one horse in Basilisk. wink.gif
Basilisk
The Otts could easily have checked Basilisk's background - all it would have cost them was the price of an airmail stamp to write to Musgrave-Clark at Courthouse. He knew the Blunt/Crabbet horses intimately, and indeed chose a 15.1 Basilisk mare - Bozra - as one of his foundation mares, despite having a dislike of Arabs over 14.2h. The Basilisk line produced extremely well at Courthouse, with her descendant Bahram being for many years used as the exemplar of the perfect Arabian stallion.

The Ott's ridiculous bit of misinformation has engendered a lot of undeserved opprobrium for this extremely valuable line.

I thought I knew the Basilisk family fairly well, being intimately involved with them for 30 years, but at what point was she determined as being "SE"? She was bred in Syria, of all-Bedouin lines (the ed Derri family), and was taken by the Blunts to Crabbet where all her offspring were foaled. 2 of her descendants were purchased by the RAS in 1920, but according to Pearson/Mol they did not appear to breed on.

Basilisk was evidently a top-quality horse, since Lady Anne Blunt used her as a standard of excellence against which other horses were measured. The thing most people do not take into account when looking at the most-often repoduced photo of her, is that she moved her head and closed her eye during the long exposure, thus creating a double image and making it exceedingly difficult to discern her actual profile.

My experience of the Courthouse/Crabbet Basilisk line is that the qualities most evident are those least visible: the mares tend to produce the phenotype of the stallion they are bred to, but consistently pass on an incredible toughness, above average intelligence, a belief they are human (but superior to the mere 2-legged variety:D) and above all, the ability to perform. This has been in great measure their downfall, as they are such incredible performers the mares have seldom had the chance to even replace themselves. Furthermore, although in the UK this is an extremely small and consistently endangered family, 50% of all the colts born have proved themselves superior sires - no mean feat!

Sadly, the Basilisk female line in the UK is almost on the verge of extinction, so I would be extremely interested to hear of mares of this line elsewhere.

Keren
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Sep 12 2007, 04:44 PM)
Dr. Wigger, I am sorry I mistook your advice to Zandri... Tracy
*


... no problem, Tracy. I could have been more clear. Indeed I was aiming at the breeders rejecting the stallion, Zandri was talking about.

Nevertheless I observe an increasing number of "new" SE breeders responding to rumours about questionable elements in pedigrees and help to perpetuate this non-sense instead of reading the basics. Some older breeders who know better deliberately start rumours to disqualify certain bloodlines or to upvalue their own.
If they realize that not all breeders are simple-minded enough to follow their bad talking, they finally focus on the ugly phenotype of certain ancestors to justify their "exclusions". A very dangerous path as it will become a boomerang as soon as taste and fashion changes ...
Basilisk
It has to be said - long-established breeders often indeed know 'where the bodies are buried', so it should not be assumed that their comments on certain lines are necessarily financially or politically motivated!

For example, I know - thanks to people who were around at the time and closely involved with the people concerned - that my Old English lines carry an impurity considerably more significant that than of Skowronek. Those I learnt this from had absolutely nothing to gain, as by the time I knew them they had ceased to breed Arabs: indeed, I had known one of my informants for close on 20 years before they told me the facts (which were recorded in the minutes of AHS Council meetings which they attended).

So I would say to 'newbies' - go listen to the old breeders, they have invaluable knowledge. But never trust one source - listen to everyone. As a newbie myself, I fell big time for the Otts, and spent far too long being ashamed of my Basilisk mare instead of realising what an incredible jewel I had.

Keren
Marilee
Excellent advise. I met a very nice woman at a horse meeting last night. She has a mare which I have never seen in the flesh or in the pedigree. She is so excited about having "my first foal". She is giving the money for a breeding to her trainer, who will decide who to breed the mare to. A nice lady, but listen to that!!! We know it goes on all the time. But gladly there are lots more who do their homework and try to breed the best to the best, or try to breed up or not breed at all. If I do see her again I will offer some knowledge, but the trainer obviously has financial and decision -making control over her. How sad. Some trainers then get a fee from the mare owner and then a kick-back from the stallion owner too!!!
Heirloom Arabian Stud
I certianly dont know enough about this to add very vaualabe imformation,, I dont discount, Mrs ott, or her research, if i did, i would avoid the line, and I dont,, nor do i avoid Sirecho or Adhem, if the horse in front of me is worthy of breeding and adding something to the table,

As I learned the hard way years ago,, Blue List, Blue star, SO, heirloom, etc, are just labels and really only important {per say} to those preserveing or breeding,

The horse standing in front of you and its merits are far more important than what label is assigned to that horse, Instead of looking for negitive in the pedigree, or single out one horse, We must learn to breed and preserve what the horse represents with all its ancesters and not single out any one to avoid, !!



Mike
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
I think there has been some very good advice for you Zandri...

Know your sources, Evaluate your sources, what do they have to gain???.. By all means learn from people that have been in this business for 20, 30, and 40 years...Always keep an open mind...Remember your mentors and the people you look up to in this business are human... Opinion and personal preference do play a role.. Just don't get caught in a trap where your money is concerned.. Know what YOUR ideal horse looks like and breed to that goal, because you are the person stuck feeding them when the fad changes and the glitter tarnishes... Remember labels were often thought up as a marketing tool...They are a man made tool and therefore sometimes flawed... Tracy
diane
Kelly, youíve written I heard that... (post #16), well, you can read it as well if you like. Itís in the catalogue supplement (1965) produced by J L Ott and her mother and can be found Blue Catalog webpage to quote a line from this piece...
QUOTE
The reasons why these groups differ from each other and from the Blue stock are irrelevant.


Keren, to my understanding, it wasnít so much Basiliskís pedigree but her overall look which concerned JL Ott, hence the sublisting.
QUOTE
It would be pointless to go into that much detail about sub-lists which are definitely not eligible for this Catalog and/or definitely cannot be depended on to produce the Antigue Type.  Sub-lists Basilisk, Skowronek, and Nureddin do not belong in this Catalog at all, as each produces a type of its own,...
Caryn Rogosky has mentioned numerous times that she bred this line to prove that any misgivings about phenotype / genotype from this mare were simply that Ė misgivings in other words a furphy smile.gif It would also be worthy to note that in this time/era (1965) the level of pedigree verification wasn't the same as we have today.

Mike, to my knowledge, itís not a closed list as yet. However, thereís been no effort to update it thereby placating the masses. Only the author can validate any inclusions, including progeny of listed stock.
diane
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Sep 13 2007, 05:50 AM)
So I wouldn't dismiss the entire concept of *Blue List.  Instead, I would recognize the fact she most likely missed out on one horse in Basilisk.  wink.gif
*

This deserves a separate post. There is a HUGE lesson to be learnt from this statement! Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention, Kelly biggrin.gif
bterlaan
This is the SE-Forum at its best! Great information, critical but not unfair voices, people who have thoughts as well as a wealth of knowledge .I am learning so much, thank you all!
Basilisk
Diane, if you read the article in 'Arabiana' on "sub-list Basilisk", it is very clear that the Otts question Basilisk's purity.

I'm sorry, but there is no way they were working with 'all the data that was available': Musgrave-Clark was one of the best-known breeders worldwide at the period, and his Basilisk-bred stallion Bahram's photo was widely reproduced. A letter to the AHS here in Britain would have reached him easily. Moreover, *Henry Babson* knew Musgrave-Clark personally, and had imported a Basilisk stallion from Courthouse himself. I'm sure there was someone at the Babson farm that would have passed on the information if asked.

One can only conclude that the Otts were so dazzled (insert adjective of choice here) by either Raswan or their own theory that they did not bother to take the one small step that would have cleared up the issue in a trice.

Keren
zandri
Dear all of you that took the time to reply and explain so many thank yous. thanks Oliver we will read the link. we will take all your advise and make the best use of Shaam well im not a total newbie we have been breeding Arabs for 20 years on a small scale but here in South Africa is only very few SE horses also quite a few of the SE breeders here are very reluctant to share info so maybe thats why i stayed with my non SE Arabs my friend stumbled on this imported stallion quite by accident at someone who stopped breeding i knew about Shaam but though he was dead well now that he was found and we know theres nothing seriously to wory about at least he has beautiful straight legs and no sway back i can asure you he will be treasured and his blood will not be lost although most of his foals will not be SE my friend is now seriously looking for a suitable SE mare for him many thanks for all your thoughts its great to know that the one thing we have in comon the Arab horse can get people so pasionette have a nice day z
zandri
O theres one point made by Mike that to me also is the most important and that is that the individual standing in front of you should be worthy of his or her pedigree he or she could be SE Asil Blue list Al Khamsa Sheyk Obeyd but if its a weak spesimen it will be worth nothing here in South Africa there is a handful of Asi5 Keheilan Mimre horses they are very sought after by some and all are decendants from Baraka
LMG
A very good thread and Oliver's direction to the original discussion is essential for a futher understanding of the issue.

The Otts attempt to draw up a list of horses which, they stated, was an attempt to preserve a group of horses whose bloodlines were disappearing under the "improvement of the breed" actions of Westernized breeders, does, in retrospect, have the same flaws which any classification may have based on personal bias, rather than hard and fast criteria. But it was a start.

"If you have seen, what I have seen," is generally not a persuasive argument, in a quasi-scientific study, but one had to recognize the personal bias in the List, and try to look at it from the standpoint of an early response to more than one individuals recognition that the "desert" type of Arabian Horse was disappearing.

Raswan had his detractors and his admirers and those who have his books, are aware that he stated that horses in the Raswan Index may be subject to change, as future information became available.

Those of us, who belong to the age in which communication was primarily by letter writing, may have a bit more tolerance for the difficulties of any type of reasearch during that period, as opposed to the exponentially expanding technical innovation of present communitcation - which is increasing as I type this. (As are the errors for failure to state that a comment is opinion and not substantiated by authenticated and reporducable studies or data.)

We recognize that the original belief of the four humors of the body, has advanced to reporducible scientific methods and technology which would be considered magic at one time. This very same technology has made it much easier to research other matters of interest . It should be sufficient to recognize the work of those who came before, in the era in which they did their work, note the errors, wether as a result of bias or poor research methods, and build on the residual worthwhile data - which serveral subsequent organizations have done, since the Ott's initial work.

LMG
diane
Basilisk,Sep 14 2007, 03:39 AM >Diane, if you read the article in 'Arabiana' on "sub-list Basilisk", it is very clear that the Otts question Basilisk's purity.
I'm sorry,....
*


Keren, there's no sorry necessary smile.gif as Lorriee has suggested, I'm quite sure that there would be those who don't communicate (whether its in the form of speaking and/or listening) - it happened, it still happens. Personal preferences / biases can account for many things, most of all it makes the world stay round biggrin.gif Perhaps initially it was the look which was the distraction and consequently the reluctance to accept the pedigree? OR vice-versa, didn't liike the pedigree and associated it to the look blink.gif Any amount of communication rarely changes a bias without an element of inner reflection. It was a personal preference. Something which could be readily recognised by so many today unsure.gif

I do agree, Arabiana is a great read smile.gif as is the Blue Arabian Horse Catalog.
zandri
Dear Oliver we read your link from that i would say Basilisk could just as well have been called special from the describsions she does not even sound like an ugly horse! weve just looked up my friends one non SE mares pedigree little far back we found Basilisk in her SE grandsires pedigree now we know there is just 2 imported Arabs with Basilisk in here in RSA and then of course all their offsprings most of then non SE my friends mare is in foal to Shaam so now we can hardly wait for this double Basilisk foal this foal is her sires Signiture foal we will keep you posted have a nice weekend z
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