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An American Breeder
In the United States the highest year of foal registrations during one year was 1986 according to DataSource with 28,216 foals. In 2000 there were 8810 foals registered during one year. In 2001 the total was 7574 foals. Last year, 2002, 3273 foals were registered, less than half of the previous year. mad.gif

This year for 2003, as of 10-15-2003 there are 1492 foals registered with 185 of these foals listed as Straight Egyptian. sad.gif

Our mare lines are disappearing fast, in all lines of the Arabian breed. unsure.gif

How does the American trend compare with the rest of the world? Percentage or actual numbers -- what is happening in other areas with their valuable mare lines?

Curious -- thank you.
diane
perhaps and its a big perhaps, responsibility in some ways is coming into play as there isn't a need for a huge number of equines including Arabians these days. Equines are, more or less, a luxury.

The fact that more people are following trends perhaps encouraged by media hype is a tad discouraging as the broadest spectrum of bloodlines need to be maintained with the understanding the gene pool for asil Arabians is closed. Understanding the diversity of the Arabian is paramount under these circumstances.

The question could be: how much do breeding decisions rely on what is and what is not rather than assessing a good Arabian for its merit, especially considering its diversity?
bterlaan
Did you take into account the possibility that a number of Arabs are perhaps not registered with AHRA anymore, but directly with PAHR? Then another possible cause for the dwindling numbers: AHRA allows registration of adult horses, based on DNA testing, This will cause many breeders to defer registration until eg selling the horse or breeding from it, giving one the opportunity to see how it develops before going through the cumbersome and expensive exercise of registering a horse.
Gari
Bterlaan,

With due respect...you are dreaming in part. Most US owners /breeders have never heard of WAHO/PAHR . Where there is a following in other countries it is virtually non-existent here. Conversely your point is well taken about delaying registration. Think you are on to something about the expense. It is ridiculously over priced and certainly a deterrant to those of middle income who would like to become involved but put off by the costs.

Diane,

You're right, of course. It is a luxury and many of those who can afford it wouldn't and don't have a clue if you discussed mare lines with them. Goodness knows I can think of three well-heeled breeders who have been in the business over 20 years and well known in the US at the very least, and they have not a clue about tail females, strains, dam lines and get downright surly if you make an attempt to discuss such. Each and everyone will identify the tail female, strain, dam line by I.D.ing a male line, eg., "Dam line? Kuhailan Haifi of course!" Several have a nearly 'off with their heads' mentality because they are so bored by the subject.

Oh well. We just have to keep plugging away and take satisfaction in knowing that those who haven't a clue have to breed at least 100 before they can breed a winner of any variety. By the way, do you know how you know them? They have never, despite all the money in the world, bred a major winner in halter and performance but have had to purchase them all. On the other hand, because they don't pay attention, they don't know and almost always say, "Oh but you know breeding is such a craps shoot....".

Gari
Guest
QUOTE
Did you take into account the possibility that a number of Arabs are perhaps not registered with AHRA anymore, but directly with PAHR? Then another possible cause for the dwindling numbers: AHRA allows registration of adult horses, based on DNA testing, This will cause many breeders to defer registration until eg selling the horse or breeding from it, giving one the opportunity to see how it develops before going through the cumbersome and expensive exercise of registering a horse.


The answer is no. The number of registrations with PAHR will probably be less than half than the total number of this year's foal registrations. PAHR's scope is severely limited to exports only based on membership service performance.

The delay of registration is too costly. The regular price to register a 24-month old and older is $500.00 for both AHA members and non-AHA members, non-refundable.
An American Breeder
Hello All: I did not bring in PAHR because hopefully this thread will not be about PAHR, that is for another thread. tongue.gif I would ask all of you to please respect this desire and wait with any comments on this situation until such time as there is a thread on them. cool.gif

Actually the most PAHR has registered in one year is a little over 200 horses and last year in 2002 was less than 200. American is exporting almost no horses. There are something like 1500 or 1700 horses TOTAL that have gone through PAHR since Jan 1., 1998.
nwind
Well, I have three lovely colts to register, but have spending my money on hay, hoof care and assorted things so they grow up strong and healthy. $300 for registration is a BIG bite out of the budget! I am considering registering them only with USAHR, which would cost $195.
ema
One of the things I thought seriously about with USAHR is that IF I decided to register with them instead of AHR, then I would have youngsters to sell that a person could NOT show in Class A or better competition unless they paid to have them re-registered with the AHR, and probably at a lot of expense rather than the $100 each it would cost to register them right away (at an early age) with the AHR.

AHR registered babies are showable, etc. no matter in what venue a new owner might choose. Would it not be a detraction when selling your young to not have them registered with the existing (AHR) registry?

I have not done PAHR either, but I have not needed to export yet, and I believe that is most of their purpose for existance (at least that is what I have been told). BUT, if I did double register, PAHR should be the right way to go, since that would facilitate exportation and re-registration into a WAHO country...

I am not sure if my view will be popular here, but I do know that I am not the only one wondering why we should register with USAHR. What are the benefits that would make it worthwhile to leave AHR behind, or to double, maybe triple register, which brings our cost significantly higher...

Julia
An American Breeder
Must be the month! biggrin.gif Halloween and full moons! rolleyes.gif The thread is about the disappearance of mare lines and the declining number of foals.

I, like my partner, can take people on very well about USAHR vs AHR -- but let's not today! Thanks, all. Back to the original questions, No PAHR, WAHO, AHR vs USAHR. Thanks. Hopefully we can discuss this thread without the rancor -- trying to head em all off at the pass. ph34r.gif
nwind
Julia, you must understand that I don't care about Class A shows. I have NO interest in trying to compete with the new accepted US standard of the "Saddlebred Look" with my SE horses and less interest in handing them over to a brutal trainer. I have found very few buyers who are into showing either and those prefer open shows. I admit, I tend to seek out buyers who want horses to ride and use, not show because I want happier lives for my babies than most show horses in this country have. Right now, I am not realizing ANY benefits of my AHA membership other than a glossy magazine full of pictures of Saddlebred looking horses and the priviledge of paying too much for registration.

Apologies, American Breeder - I did not mean to detract from the topic of registration and irreplacable mare lines being lost, which is a matter that should be of HUGE concern to everyone.
An American Breeder
Hello All -- NO ONE in any other countries has any problem with declining registrations and loss of irreplaceable mare lines? No where?
HLM
Good morning Bterlaan

PAHR has up todate approximately 1900 registrations, of which I surmise 95percent are also registered with the AHRA.
all our horses are double registered-( with both registries)

People, who left our Arabian industry, unable or unwilling to stand the halter class behavior, some are now returning going strictly "Sportshorse Arabians". It appears that the Arabian indeed excells in endurance racing and other stress performances. It was quite evidenced at the US National sportshorse championships with c. 1500 entries (c.500 horses participated) of which c.90percent were in the under saddle performances. A high percentage of that were ridden by young riders.

Many well known breeders indeed cut back and only bred few mares, leaving the othes open, in order to not overuse the market, which includes us, often up to 75percent.

Another reason for leaving is that quite a few turned to other breeds, simply because of the behavior they experienced on some forums . We were able to persuate some to return to the Arabian breed and got numerous people into the saddle.

Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms








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reluctant2
dear American Breeder,
what does Hansi's post have to do with your original question?? In particular this passage

"""""""Another reason for leaving is that quite a few turned to other breeds, simply because of the behavior they experienced on some forums .""""""""""" She just cannot post without throwing at least a couple of barbs. Pitiful??!!!!

If you remove posts solely due to applicability then should it be uniformly applied??

Personally the rate at which some valuable mare lines are disappearing is alarming and the practice of breeding indiscriminately to the currently popular fad is solely responsible for the narrowing of the gene-pool.
That will not change until the glitz and Glamor of well heeled dilletantes ceases to be a major influence at shows.
They are here today and tomorrow they are off on another quest to satisfy their egos and their horses wind up as Belgian deli fare.
I mean no offence,
have a great day......
PS. you are welcome to remove this one also.
An American Breeder
Reluctant 2: Part of the reason for the mares being bred out of the Arabian breed is the push by the Big Hair Trainers wanting half Arabians for several reasons as well as what you stated. What then occurs is that the precious stallions, and this includes the really top quality individuals, are discarded and the mares are taken for breeding to other horse breeds or to the individuals that are the "flavor of the moment" and represent what is the show ring in America today.

Perhaps it is past time for those abroad to know that there are many Arabian breeders in America who like them, will NOT accept this Saddlebred look or blood either. However, the show ring here in the US is so controlled by the trainer/judges/NSH owners-trainers-riders as again judges that the stallions don't stand a chance! Owners are not going to do what is necessary (cost, training, shipping, etc) to present their lovely stallions in the show ring to be left on the rail. Sooo --- the genocide (as I personally see it) continues. Get rid of the males and make the females pregnant with these Saddlebred and Halfs.

Now, how can we stop this destruction of the authentic purebred Arabian horse in America? This is all lines, not just the Egyptian horses.

That should be the topic here. How to save these irreplaceable mare lines? Thank you as I know you do have valuable input that perhaps will help at least educate some who need to know how bad the situation is in the United States and thus help the breed here at home.
HLM
Good morning American Breeder and all

you are so very correct. Although ALWAYS reputed, no matter what I write by the GROUP issuing continous hostility , insults and disrespect, I did not want to go into specifics as you did. But it is correct what you are writing. The question asked was answered in part by me and you did the rest for which those interested should be grateful.
Until we all learn of facts and the truth, many things can not change.

I find it so rewarding when other posters produce photos of
various SE/Asils of the past as a reminder. The combined efforts of all of us will ensure survival of proven bloodlines.
Those who own the Asil Book V will see some of our imports in
the 21 pages we bought. All these lines bred on successfully.

It is also rewarding that again numerous people are back in the saddle doing their best to continue proving the SE's stress performance abilities, making them very formidable competitors,and beautiful ones in my opinion..


Have a nice day
Hansi
Ralph
Liz (and everyone else):

SORRY! I started something for which I did not consider the resulting exchange, including the highly imagined and dreaded concept "THE GROUP". wacko.gif

This month's (OCTOBER) Arabian Horse World, is very relevant to this discussion. If you don't have it, get it, it is a great issue. There is an interview with Bill Addis of Addis Equine Auctions. He was asked the following question by Denise Hearst:

QUOTE
What's the best selling Arabian or Arabian cross in the market today?

well bred Half-Arabian three or four year olds that are finished but not shown...a real good English pleasure purebred will run a close second...a Half-Arab/American Saddlebred with a good pedigree on both sides...next step down would be the horse with a little more age on him but under 10 years old, has a show record-if it's an English horse it better be in a double bridle (a $2-$3,000 difference in price)...Hunter/Western horse combinations are a hot item...next, is a western horse that has scored high in regional competition....THE MARKET TODAY IS ON PERFORMANCE HORSES THAT ULTIMATELY THAT 42 YEAR OLD WOMAN AND HER 14 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER CAN RIDE.


From what I see and hear and now read...the people who are buying horses today are not necessarily looking for valuable mare lines or rare and endangered pedigrees.

Check out Leon Silber's Letter to the World on page 16:

QUOTE
There are already too many Arabians in this country. We need less breeding, not more. AND There is an oversupply of horses, ALL BREEDS.


On page 162, there is a Breeding Class Forum, with people like Henry Metz and Beverly Sziraky responding. One of the points that really made an impression for me was Beverly's:

QUOTE
Dividing the Arabian breed into three distinct types, Sport Horse, Stock Horse, and Saddleseat sounds, on the surface, as though it might provide more opportunities for exhibitors. I think we should remember that our breed is already divided into domestic, Polish, and Egyptian types. Instead of further dividing Arabian breeder and exhibitors, and confusing the general public, I believe we must find a way to work within the present system and still give equal weight to judging Arabian Horses that are bred or being prepared to compete in these different classes. One of the selling points for the Arabian has been his versatility. When a breeder selects breeding stock solely on the basis of one or two characteristics, for example high knee action and length of neck or perhaps cow sense and agility, inevitably other characteristics are lost. Perhaps it is not important to have a high tail carriage or a beautiful head to compete successfully in these endeavors but it is important to the breed to maintain the look, temperament, and character that defines the Arabian Horse.


I don't have an answer on how to save the irreplaceable mare lines, in the face of a community, for which the majority of participants are not even aware of nor even really care about the mare lines. In the USA, we are a stallion (sire line) oriented society. Bill Addis says that the good pedigrees are Baske Afire, IXL Noble Express, Afire Bey V, Hucklebey Berry, Matoi, Zodiac Matador, Triften, El Ghazi, and Apollopalooza. Notice that not one mare is mentioned. It is obvious to me that today's selection parameters are on a horse that succeeds in some type of performance event. The market is not focused on BREED. It is focused on types of horses: Sport Horses, Endurance Horses, Stock Horses, Race Horses, Saddleseat Horses....My concern? That if we continue to proceed on a path that obviously emphasizes discipline specialization resulting in horses that are specifically bred for success in their discipline AND including those who choose to breed out of the purebred lines to obtain whatever qualities are needed for success in the ring, the mare lines are not the only ones in danger. Is it more important to save mare lines at this point or is it more important to educate the newer people who are being introduced to Arabians for the first time, that their Saddlebred type Arabian is not the standard for which the Arabian has been bred for thousands of years?????

We have been at a crossroads for a long time now and the fact that "we are not sure which direction is the best one to take" is not unique to our breed only. There are many voices out there who are calling for a change in many breeds. Many proposals are being made to turn the horse economy around. Some good and others not so good. With as many breeds out there as there are today, every breed organization is trying to convince the horse owner and would be horse owners that their breed is the best choice for their chosen discipline. Every breed has its own back-to-the-basics movement, like for example the Quarter Horse people with their "Foundation" movement, the Morgans with their "Lippits".

I don't see the the market changing from its current emphasis on performance. If anything, I see the demand for good riding horses to keep increasing. There are many people out there who have the income to indulge in one horse to enjoy and ride, maybe two horses at the most but not any more than that. People want results for the money they spend. It just costs too much to own a horse these days. There are more people who board horses than keeping them at home, especially the closer you get to urban centers. Real estate, at a premium price, will keep a high percentage of these people boarding than owning enough land to meet zoning requirements. Not to mention the commuting distances that are required to and from work for more affordable land. I think it is unrealistic to not expect the less popular mare lines to die out, as a result of a lower membership population with limited resources (money, time, other responsibilities) for multiple horse ownership.

Just my opinion.

Ralph
Comparison
While this doesn't bode well for the Arabian horse in USA, this doesn't answer the question of this thread. Are there any efforts in countries outside USA to preserve the disappearing mare lines? Is this an important issue to the non-USA countries?
An American Breeder
Thank You Ralph and Comparison: Perhaps also to be asked along with the two above questions, how does one (or a country) educate as to the importance of the mare lines?

The Arabian breed has been blessed with strong mare families, thus why they do outcross on these other breed lines but WE NEED THOSE MARE LINES SAVED within the Arabian breed.

Hoping this thread will truly be a think tank with many contributing.
HLM
Hi Everybody

Mare lines dying out- May be- May be not.

the knowledgable breeder is aware of the attributes mare lines
have and put on. these breeders will always breed for a functional Arabian, a horse anybody can ride. Among these are those who will excell in certain stress performances, as it is recorded in flat racing, endurance racing, dressage, jumping, western, english etc. The confirmation and the mind of the horse
dictates its usage.

Looking back into other breeds, people indeed only owned ONE horse, and many still do. they aquire such for their pleasure, sacrifice in some cases to afford its keep and training.

We notice that lines, other than the SE's have not lost their pass.
Reason, their stallions have been and are being tested. This was done with the SE's in the past. Some prominent breeders
concentrated only on Halter performance, forgetting the future and our young generation, who most certainly wants to ride, not just to look at a horse. It is possible, that with such attitude many superb SE stallions also lost their glamor considering
the handicap their breeders/owners provided by never giving these magnificent Arabians half a chance.

But it is never TOO LATE. EVEN AN AGED STALLION CAN BE PUT UNDER SADDLE AND TESTED. I know of some which started at age 14. Of course, one can not demand the same stress performance- going to the top.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I dont think we have to lose type at all. Presence the arabian horse has, alone makes it recognizable and beautifull.

The "amber light" is up, all over the places, and may be we all should do some tall thinking and doing some about it. Just watch how other bloodlines are doing it, and doing it so very well. Knocking it down, is defeating ourselves. Talk is so cheap.

Just my honest opinion

Hansi
HLM
HI american Breeder

Stallions mare lines must also be taken into account.
Look back into these of the original imports and the follow up.
To us the mare lines are of utmost importance. However, they can only be preserved in what they can produce by taking a strong look at the dam line of the stallion, and if such stallions
enheritated such. But this can only be done if these stallions are tested for what they can do. It is useless to breed from those, who do not come through, in what is expected. But if these stallions are not tested under saddle, how does anybody know including the breeders?? How can anybody let them breed?
that is a priviledge earned, to be allowed to breed.

If I had my way, I would instantly remove the multiple counting of type- especially when certain types have been strongly promoted for just that without considering the rest of the horse.
Only if points are given equally for all subjects to be judged, can we find a reliable accounting. I would actually have the courage to state" Please dont fool yourself" "be realistic" and follow what our ancestors and the ancestors of our horses have produced.
Furthermore, it would for certain put judges on the spot, because now they have to judge functioability foremost.

It will also put breeders on the spot. People will ask if they are riders and judge a horse accordingly, or if they just breed a pedigree to a pedigree and what is "in". Those breeders can be helped, if they have trainers who are horsemen/woman-meaning able to ride and judge accordingly.

Just my sincere opinion

Hansi
Serentiy Arabian Farms
Sig
The GROUP: Do they fly all around in black helicopters? Because they been spotted over Europe too. biggrin.gif On a serious side, most of us are really unknown to each other even when we use our real name. What does a faceless name really mean? We have no way to know what any person is going through or what is their mind frame at any time. It could be real bad. Why provoke? One personal attack causes hurt and a bad response follows. As we seen over and over it becomes a big circle and the person who threw the first stinging stone is moaning about a group conspiracy. Such childishness should not be encouraged because it could cause real damage to someone and that is not entertaining. Anyway, that's what I think about it.

Trends: I think good breeders should always continue to focus only on breeding according to the classic traits of the breed. Trends come and go faster than the lifetime of a horse. The classic traits of the Arabian breed make them perfect for the 42 year old mother or the 14 year old child, and so a good breeder who is keeping to the correct breed traits in mind will get this market as well as not compromising the Arabian type and beauty. In other words, I don't think good breeders should care about trends.
Sig
Liz Salmon
I personally think that the USA holds a unique position for being the most fad orientated country in the Arabian horse world. The obcession with Saddleseat has a grip on much of the breeding here. There are some very good and devoted breeders in the US, but they often get pushed aside in the show ring. I don't see this happening in any other country of the world. Liz Salmon
An American Breeder
So a summary this far is thus: The average person riding/owner/loving an Arabian horse really could care less about mare lines, be they the tail-female dam line or the dam of the sire.

So since it is Breeders that should be concerned with these lost forever mare lines and the declining number of foals born in the USA (at an alarming rate) what is the answer? How do we educate?

Thoroughbred breeders, abroad and the USA, are very concerned with the mare lines. Dosage charts, etc. Is the lack of interest in the mare families only within the Arabian breed? So how does a change in value of the mare families commence? What more can be done TODAY to stop the hemorraging (sp?)??

I have been studying many mare lines, SE any other lines -- I am finding out of what should be huge families, ONE daughter or NONE left in the USA to produce. Once the mare dies and there are no more daughters to carry on, the line is lost FOREVER! Look up Egyptian Dream in SE lines -- Look Up Wontu on the Datasource (let us NOT go into a discussion here other than disappearing Mare Lines PLEASE PLEASE!)

Hopefully -- this will come through:


Tahera - had only 2 foals, both fillies with only 1 producing
Royal-Tee - 107 or more foals descending from this mare - only one mare thru the dam line is still producing and she has not yet produced one foal to breed on, no fillies.
Sweet Lady Jane
NV Bey Seduction - stallion
Pannache - has 1999 and 2000 fillies
Fyre and Prescence - stallion

Wasatch - 34 foals
This is a son and so the line can be carried on only thru the topline and then that drops further down thru the sons
Cometez - 7 foals
Novatez - 20 foals
Notez - 8 foals - one daughter producing
Bosun - 21 foals
Notraz - 6 foals
The daughters here also are no longer producing with a rare exception. A dedicated breeder, Sage Hill Arabians, prefix SH carried on the line. As the 80's and 90's arrived, there were no more fillies or even foals to carry on.
Hallan-Anna - 8 foals, no fillies carrying on
Hallan-Robbin - 16 foals has only 2 daughters to carry on
Marajule - 10 foals
daugthter had 14 foals, 2 fillies carrying on
daughter had 6 foals, no fillies carrying on
daughter had 5 foals, none carrying on
Rubygail had 8 foals and has 1 daughter carrying on, SH Noble Joy, and one other daughter who has only had colts.

Perhaps this exemplies my concerns. I can do this with the Straight Egyptian lines as well.

Back to the topic of the thread, all == What can be done? !
HLM
Dear American Breeder

I hear you loud and clear. I just looked through the October issue Arabian Horse World and on page 197 you find some data of the tevis cup. check out "Dya" (1974) she is by "Dalul"
and produced 4 foals, of which 3 finished the Tevis cup and two of them were in the top tens. that is a 75percent top production.
If you go further in thepedigree of her dam "Bin Nasalla" you will see some of the greatest athletes and type Arabian in it. this type might not be that of many people, but all look unmistakenly "Arabian".

I also read those ltters to the Editor, among which is that of Henry Metz. also he talks our language, points out what some of us are trompeting all the time.

I always wondered wby some people think that a stallion can do it all, when indeed it is the mare which is most important. Many a top mare sits in the backyard of a small breeder, wasted, because of ignorence or intimidation. i HAVE SEEN THEM,
many par excellent ones.

I also wish that people would pay less emphasis on "Halter" championship, and concentrate on the "Horse's functioability.
the tevis cup is the hardest ride in the World, they say. I believe it.
And the SE's- many of them- COULD DO IT AND DO IT WELL.

so let's see what prominent breeders, who do not test their stallions/mares come up with. I am holding my breath.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
SpiritArabi
Not only are the mare lines being lost but the purebred Arabian horse is being lost in a sea of Saddlebred crosses, Dutch harness horses etc. All this is being fueled by the trainer/judges in our current Arabian horse industry. Now that's an oxymoron, Arabian horse industry. Where is the Arabian horse? The horses in our U.S. shows and in the breed magazines no longer look like Arabians. A Hackney and a Saddlebred is what they really want with the added pretty of the Arabian.

In my humble opinion it's time to change and if that requires a new organization that only shows the purebred Arabian then let's get started. Oh I can hear the groans and moans already. The fact remains that if you want something badly enough you will be willing to go out and make it happen. Complaining over the internet is easy as all you have to do is sit in front of your computer in your comfortable chair and spout out all your frustrations. If the Quarter horse people can start a grass roots "new" organization for their old style Quarter horses then why not do something like this for the purebred Arabian. Take note when you look at the Foundation that was started to preserve the old style Quarter horses, they do not have halter classes but focus on performance. What's stopping us?

As far as the loss of valuable mare lines, indeed they are being lost and not only within the Straight Egyptian lines. Fad breeding, fad judging (with the same judges used over and over again) and a lack of education being offered to newcomers in the breed by various organizations that promote the Arabian horse are to blame.

So... what are you waiting for? Start something new that preserves and promotes only the purebred Arabian blink.gif

SpiritArabi
Ralph
SpiritArabi:

I read your post and hesitated...then thought...hmmm...we have had that type of action before. Not happy? Start your own deal? I don't believe that starting another organization is really the answer. On the surface, it seems like a great idea but in the end, it splinters the community and becomes divisive. Change..YES...but change through the current channels is more effective. We don't need any more organizations than what we already have. In Straight Egyptians, we already have more than we need. Much, much more than we need. We have the Pyramid Society, we have the Asil Club, we have Al Khamsa, we have Sheykh Obeyd, we have the Blue movement, we have Heirloom. On top of that, we have the Arabian Horse Association, WAHO, and PAHR....we are being organized to death.

I agree that the problem is a little more serious than losing the mare lines...although this issue is intertwined in the larger issue. In my previous post, I used a few examples from the October issue of Arabian Horse World. I missed using another quote from the article with Bill Addis:

QUOTE
The Question "WHAT DOESN'T SELL" was asked of Bill Addis, of Addis Equine Auctions by Denise Hearst.

Bill answered, "Horses bred for a straight this or straight that pedigree. Most of the trainers dont want 'em. They swap a few of them around with each other, sell a few back over to Europe and the Middle East (a market that's almost died out since September 11) and that's the bottom of the the market as far as I'm concerned. I think it's great if people want to preserve the history, but it's not going to sell well at auction in the USA. Whether people like it or not, we are getting more and more like the American Saddlebred and the Quarter Horse in that the professionals run the industry. In the eighties it was the breeders that hired the trainers, but the day of the large breeder, the Howie Kales, the Lasmas, are gone. The overhead just absolutely kills them because there's not so many of the high-dollar horses around."


To make a serious effort at saving the mare lines for all Arabian Horses requires either a very large grass-roots movement with many smaller breeders working with one or two mares (affordable is the key word here) or larger breeders like say for example, an Ansata or Imperial, taking their mare lines and establishing younger breeders committed to preserving these bloodlines. That is a commitment, involving huge sacrifice for all the parties. After reading what Bill Addis says, you can't be doing this to derive an income from selling the horses, you have to be doing this because you love them and you want to see these lines prosper, as you may be faced with the reality that you will need to hang onto the horses that you breed.

Anyway, time for someone else to offer their opinions, as I don't want to dominate this discussion with my views, since I don't have the answer to saving the mare lines. smile.gif

Ralph
An American Breeder
Spirit Arabians -- that new organization is in the works -- www.arabianhorsefair.com

However -- back to the theme of this thread 00

So shows are the watering holes for the breed -- isn't that the same in other countries as well? Why is it then that in Europe the Arabian is holding its own with the Thoroughbred, lots of them in England, France, or the Warmblood? Is it that the Arabian stallion is viewed as the top cross to improve the local mares, and not the Arabian mare being taken out to another breed? Is it that a foal from another breed stallion and a Arabian mare can only be registered in the stallion's registry? Just asking questions!

The average breeder in Europe and the average breeder today in the USA are about the same. When MRLS hit Kentucky the survey results showed that 80% of all Thoroughbred breeders in Kentucky (and actually all the areas) had only 1-6 mares at the most, with the average around 3-4 mares each. That means the backbone of the Thoroughbred "industry" is the 'Little Guy/Gal'. Why is it that the TB industry cares about these people and the Arabian "industry" cares so little about these same type of people?

In that mare list above, I started in Arabians with horses carrying a lot of that blood. To suggest that these horses do not have Arabian type or the quality to breed-on, is false. The early imports were mainly of certain lines, Saqlawi or Kuhaylan -- note I did not say every single horse imported! -- but these horses certainly were bred up to be of quality and were unmistakenly Arabian. Also, they were extremely athletic. Arabians love to jump, their intelligence makes them top in cattle work, they are bred to be an outstanding saddle horse (but not a Saddlebred).

So I keep asking HOW do we save these mare lines, and how do we stop the spiral downward of less and less foals per year? What will it be next year? Is the bottom a 1000 foals or less? Who has ideas?

And who is willing to make steps forward to help those of us in the USA who want the authentic Arabian breed? - for what is in the show ring is a tiny percentage of all Arabians in the USA but it projects to the world what is being bred. Strange that several think that it is overseas that needs help but don't look around at home.

If you say part of the answer lies in education, what type of education? How to get that word out to the masses? Anyone have any answers? huh.gif
An American Breeder
Ralph:

Are you aware of Bill Addis's connections? There is a reason why he is promoting that trainers control everything regarding the Arabian breed in the USA. Why should they control? I would ask that question! ! ! Whenever any breed has allowed trainers to take control, the breed has been killed! ! Go study history.

As for one organization, organized along the same format of our own government, it is in the works -- already started. We need one organization for the people, of the people, by the people. Not a dictatorship. But, if that is the style for you, then that is fine. As for all the groups you mentioned, are you saying all those groups have no value and should just jump up and disappear, there should only be one almighty dictating? If you are, then you are amongst those who does not want anything to exist in America but this ASB Arabian thing being promoted and touted by a certain group! That is my opinion. And frankly, in reality, you could care less about mare lines being saved. Because that is part of their agenda. To destroy the groups that have thwarted their complete take-over of the remaking of what is defined as an American breed.

Had there been no Pyramid Society we would today have no Egyptian blood left in the USA. We would be in the same position as the few Spanish breeders fighting desperately to hang on. We would be a past tense as the Russian line breeders are. The Pure Polish are now getting it in the back of the neck - those who are not part of this "in" crowd, and what has been done to the beautiful Crabbet blood horses -- THAT IS A CRIME! ! Just where do you find a lovely Crabbet stallion? Hmmmmm -- with the demise of the Crabbet Influence and Georgia Cheer in England -- there is no fighter for that group -- the mares have been Genocided into this ASB Arabian thing stallion.

Or are you proposing that when there is only ONE organization, everything else has been killed and it is revealed through the breed specific markers that this American Arabian has ASB blood -- oh now, we cop a WAHO type definition -- just smile and go on????? The rest of the world will not tolerate this thing that is being used to represent the American Arabian and NEITHER WILL many of us in the USA.

Sorry, that was not the right post at this time in history for me. mad.gif mad.gif
Patricia Hampton
This year's Sport Horse Nationals was a big event. Many breeders and riders who DON'T show, took their horses and competed. The select group of big trainers were not there and people were competing on the closest thing to a level playing field the U.S. has seen in many years. I am sorry that half-Arabians comprised a substantial part of the entries and sorrier that if the show was successful enough that the big trainers smell money, they will take it over. The only hope for it is that the sport horse classes take too much training time to complete in for most of the fast buck artists.

Disappearing mare lines is a major issue. Once gone, they cannot be brought back. I dropped my IAHA membership when began encouraging the breeding of purebred mares to non-Arabian stallions. Remember the "designer horse" campaign which culminated in allowing non-Arabian stallions into the Sweepstakes program? In my mind, that was the beginning of the genocide. These Saddlebred-Arabian people are working hard with every sort of advertising campaign to destroy what is leff of the purebred Arabian. They will not succeed, however, because (pay attention to this Ralph) ninety five percent of U.S. Arabian owners no longer have anything to do with the breed association. It is the breed association (AHRA, IAHA and now AHA) that splintered the Arabian community. What we need to do with Arabian Horse Fair is find those splinters and bring them together again. We need to mobilize the small owner and breeder to show what they have, to educate themselves on their bloodlines to present their true Arabian horses to be judged as ARABIAN horses in a ring with other ARABIAN horses, not part Saddlebreds. These Saddlebred crosses, whether registered as purebreds or partbreds, will be a passing fancy. Know why? Because other than a relatively small show group that focuses on knee action and nothing else, no one likes them. They are miserable to ride on a long trail, unlikely to stay sound for endurance riding, lack the flexibility for dressage.

Liz Salmon, your words about Americans and fads is absolutely right on. There is however, always a quiet and less glamourous market for quality.
Ralph
Liz!

WHOA!! Now hold on a second...you are writing many things into my post that I do not feel, especially about Saddlebreds.

Let someone else do some talking...I am tired, its Sunday, it's fall, there is not much daylight and I want to go out and ride for a long time. None of what you say about me is true. Does the horse in the picture look like a Saddlebred?

Ralph
An American Breeder
Ralph, that is true -- the summer hours are gone -- go enjoy your ride! Perhaps we see things differently or we interpret throught words on the Net differently. People who love their Arabians, and want them to stay as they are, That is What this County needs.

Liz
PS my partner confirms you are exactly that kind of person. Your words, however unintential fired a storm this morning. Enjoy that ride.
Anne-Louise
There is already an organisation here in the U.S. - a breeder's organisation! - that does a spectacular job of educating people of the importance of mare lines, of encouraging the perpetuation of purebred replacement breeding stock and of using judges that are carefully selected, non-political and even from abroad! Even better, just like this website, it's focus is on the Straight Egyptian horse.

I, for one, count myself very fortunate to have the Pyramid Society and the Egyptian Event as a means of bringing together people for whom the issues you have been discussing are important.

Anne-Louise smile.gif
HLM
Dear american Breeder

You mentioned mare lines and said, you can do this with SE's and or Asils too. PLEASE wOULD YOU DO THIS HERE?

I DONT HAVE THE TIME, but could supplement with the stress performances - flat racing- of ancestors if you like.I think I have many of them, which would be a quick effort for me.

This might give those interested an idea, as to what to look for and persue it further. We might even consider doing this lateron with the mare lines of stallions of the past also. what do you think, will you do it? thank you kindly.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Patricia Hampton
Anne-Louise, I cannot agree with you more about the education and the job done by the Pyramid Society. Without the Pyramid Society there would be no Straight Egyptian horses in the United States. The down side of the Pyramid Society as a central organization is the cost. I have wanted to join for years but am not in an income group that can support the high membership fees, futurity nomination fees, costs of training and showing at the Egyptian Event.

As one of the founders of Arabian Horse Fair with its lower membership fees and inexpensive futurity fees, nothing would please me more than for us to find a way to work with the Pyramid Society, giving at the least public support for each other and what help we can with advertising and education, to help maintain and yes, grow the popularity of the Egyptian Arabian in this country. We are working at different ends of the economic scale and should be able to be mutually supportive, bring more people into Egyptians and not tread on each other's toes at all while expanding the market and appeal of the SE horse.
DrSabine
Hello American Breeder,

I'll try to answer a small part of your initial question about the development of the breed in other countries. I don't have any figures from 1986, but let's have a look about the number of foals during the last 10 years:

1992 1269
1993 1596
1994 1653
1995 1950
1996 1855
1997 1790
1998 1486
1999 1402
2000 1347
2001 1270
2002 1249

I don't know how many of these foals are straight egyptian, but Germany has quite a lot of SE breeders. I can't tell if there are any valuable damlines disappearing, of course some are represented very well, others do not have many representatives.

Sabine
Guest
What countries do those number represent? Thanks!
DrSabine
??????

Germany, as mentioned before!!! VZAP-numbers.
SpiritArabi
Ralph

Not happy, start your own deal. You're darn right I'm not happy and why would I want to try to work to affect a change within the existing organization AHR??????? This is the same group of people who are the cause of the problems. This is after all the merger of IAHA and AHRA.

Maybe there are a lot of small organizations, i.e. CMK, Pyramid Society, Al Khamsa, Asil Club etc., BUT at least these groups promote the ARABIAN. Perhaps if they could just start to work together to form something like the Foundation Quarter Horse Association and work towards promoting ONLY the purebred Arabian we would see the much needed change.

Mr. Addis' comment was very interesting indeed. In his quote about what is not selling he stated that breeding "straight this or straight that" is not selling because most of the trainers don't want them. Duh, it's the trainers that run the shows here in the U.S. and in Europe for that matter. It's the trainers that ran IAHA now known as AHA. Remember it was the trainers that voted to repeal what the general public wanted with those anabolic steroids .......... need I say more??
mad.gif

The time is now for all those grass roots breeders that you speak of Ralph to get together to save those mare lines. Don't expect Imperial or Ansata to do this for you. I have nothing, and I will repeat this, I have nothing against either farm as they have both contributed a lot and have received a lot from this industry; however, Ansata is only interested in Ansata and Imperial is no longer a large driving force in this business. So Ralph, it's time to save yourself so to speak.

I can safely say that I would be one of the first to join a new organization that promoted the ideals that I speak of when I mention the Foundation Quarter Horse Association. Do I have a lot of money, NO, but I have a lot of passion and the willingness to do something other than cry. So let's get together and work at saving the purebred Arabian horse. Let's hear from other grass root small organizations and breeders. Now is the time.

SpirtArabi
mmarabians
Hi everyone,
I have been a lurker on this Forum, for many months. I have enjoyed the many topics, but I feel compelled to comment in this one.

I am not an Egyptian breeder, but I appreciate the qualities that the Egyptian bred horses contribute to this wonderful breed. My wonderful stallion is a Aswan grandson. I mainly breed Russian and Russian Related. Up till last year, all purebreds-with the exception of one.

I show my homebreds, quite a bit, especially in Dressage. However, I breed an Arabian horse for type, which in my mind, includes the ability to perform. IMHO, I have bred some darn good ones. We participated in the Sport Horse Nationals and came home with 2 Championships, 1 Reserve Championship and an additional 6 TT's. We took 4 homebred Purebreds, and did quite well. And, BTW, over 70% of the horses at the event were Purebreds.

Because of my love of Dressage, last year I decided to outcross a couple of my purebred mares to a Warmblood stallion. I am very pleased with the resulting foals. I bred 3 purebreds, this year to the same Warmblood stallion. My halfbreds are now branded Belgium Warmbloods and their purebred dams have been accepted into the main mare book for this breed. Do I think I comitted a sin against the purebred Arabian breed? No, I think I improved The Belgium Warmblood.VBG And I think I have created a horse that will bring new owners into the Arabian fold.

Will a Purebred Arabian suit every person? No. Will a Half Arabian suit every person? No. But either one will suit a whole lot more. JMHO Each one has a passionate owner and each one suits the Arabian industry.

I happen to feel that the saddlebred influence is becoming less in the US Arabian market. Go look at the results of the US Nationals going on right now. The typical classes, supported by half saddlebreds, are not the biggest classes!

Will I ever stop breeding Purebred Arabians? Absolutely not! They are the love of my life. Will I continue to outcross to other breeds? Yes. Will I preserve MY purebred mare lines? You bet! I could not outcross those wonderful lines, to produce exceptional Half-Arabians, without them!
Kimberli Nelson
Within the narrow group of horses that I have chosen to breed there are many mare lines that are no longer available to me as a breeder. Now, I will admit that the scope of this group is small and will attempt to explain this group of horses.

All the horses are of the same strain, in tail female: Hadban Enzahi
All the horses are Straight Egyptian,
All the horses are Asil,
All the horses are Sheykh Obeyd,
None of the horses carry El Deree or Inshass blood.

The group of horses could be very large here in the USA today if they had not been used for other crosses until after they had been replaced within the above parameters.

Beginning in 1947 when the first SOFI Hadba mare was imported to the US and 1986 when the last came out of Egypt headed for North America, a total of 13 mares were imported. These 13 mares produced 96 Straight Egyptian foals between them. Of the 96 foals only 16 were true replacements within this breeding group. Of the 16 horses there are only 3 mares that have produced a replacement to carry on this tail female line within this group.

So, of these 13 imported mares, only 3 are still available for SOF breeding.

If there had been an effort made to create a replacement breeding first, we could have over 3500 horses instead of only 45 horses still living today

I Know this is a little different than breeding these mares to a Warmblood or a Saddlebred but the concept is the same... Even within SE breeding there is a chance to lose some mare lines because of the "Stallion of the Day" type breeding.
BobandEna
Maybe we should look way into the passed to try to find an answer. The Bedouins loved their Arabians, of that there is no doubt, we also know that the mares ruled supreme, war horse, family member, eat, slept and cherished by all the tribe. These mares were so sought after that if one was a bounty of war then an envoy was sent to the defeated tribe to establish her breeding.

As fare as I can read I cannot recall any writings of Bedouins showing in hand, it’s a modern day thing and with all modern day thing it means changes, the first thing that comes to mind is the predominance of the Stallion, with it the focus on the TOP line, some great stallions are remembered for there IN HAND get, Four hundred foals and ten make top ten. What about the rest?

I for one love the Arabian stallion, but if you want to save the mare lines, then you must show the world what the mares can do and give the offspring’s a chance to excel at more than IN HAND, its time to turn the tide and ask who is the dam of this foal first, and then let it show its true colors on the track, in dressage, long distance, ridden, carriage driving, and as here in Spain as a bull fighter supreme.

I love in hand showing, but in truth there is more to the Arabian than a long neck and a nice trot, give your mare a chance at what she was bred for and just maybe she will come
Good.

Give her a SPORTNG chance.


Regards

Bob
HLM
Dear Bob
I hope you are not confusing the "SPorthorse in hand class" with the nowadays "Halter classes". the difference is humengous.
In the first one, conformation is judged with absolute astuteness by experts- True-Blue accomplished Horsemen/woman, who can evaluate what conformation does or not.Presentation is also, as it should be, or should I say- if you want a horse examined by an equine veterinarian telling you exact faults and good points.

the second is to me no more than a three ring circuss, during which only a few judges are also accomplished horsemen/woman, i.e. have or are riding in stress performances, capable of evaluating accordingly. Otherwise we would not have 2-3 legged horses become champions, as it has hapened too often in the past few years and then breeding on.

A fair way could be, to employ judges knowing various breeds,
are not influenced by a particular type or breed, but judge the horse as a horse. Secondly a judge, who can judge"type" could join and give his/her comments/marks. To duplication or even quintuplication of points for type, foregoing the rest, will be the demise of the SE Arabians. Have our SE's so deteriated than one can no longer recognize them as an Arabian horse???
I DONT THINK SO. We original importers, campaigning successfully for many years DID NOT HAVE THIS POINT SYSTEM FOR TYPE, our horses had to compete with the rest.
the records stand on their own. But we also had horsemen/woman judges, who could not be fooled or ruin their reputation by using politics or whatever. I am not saying that all judges are like this, not all all, but many are, which is a sad shame and the doom of the SE Arabians with the absolutely perfect assistance of many a cherished, top trainer.

I also feel that every Stallion owner breeding unseen mares or mare owners never seen the stallion is absolutely lucracy in a breeding shed. NO wonder many an arabian can not be marketed to a horseman/woman. It costs money to keep and train, but what are you going to do with a horse which can not stand up for what it was created or supposed to do? Eat it?

Just my opinion

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
ema
QUOTE
There is already an organisation here in the U.S. - a breeder's organisation! - that does a spectacular job of educating people of the importance of mare lines, of encouraging the perpetuation of purebred replacement breeding stock and of using judges that are carefully selected, non-political and even from abroad! Even better, just like this website, it's focus is on the Straight Egyptian horse.
I, for one, count myself very fortunate to have the Pyramid Society and the Egyptian Event as a means of bringing together people for whom the issues you have been discussing are important.


Anne-Louise!!

I couldn't think of anything to leave out in the quoted part of your post. What you have reminded us all of is so very important!! One of the biggest things I hear all the time is the old "too expensive" thing, but if you divide $300 into what it would cost daily to have the funds to belong to that great organization...anyone who can save up 82 cents a day can be a member!!

The very idea that the PS actually LISTENS to its members and puts into practice things to improve stuff when a "situation" comes up, and has a staff on hand to answer our every question (if they can) and more should be worth 82 cents a day!! The show they put on, and the quality of it, the location, etc. is certainly a huge undertaking.

And, like us, they love these Egyptian horses and the people who own them. The best thing we can do for our Egyptians is to put our support behind the organization who first gave us the definition "Straight Egyptian"!! I could be wrong, but I think they are the first of the major preservation groups!! From the staff to the Reference Manuals (look for my Ibn El Tareef and a beautiful young stallion named Simeon Sachi in this new one coming out!), and I now have all of them from 1 thru 9, and eagerly awaiting volume 10, to the show, to the website and advertising possiblities, to the respect that the organization has garnered over the years.... how can we do better than supporting something this good!!

Julia
mmarabians
I do not want to disparage Sport Horse In Hand classes. I think they are a wonderful concept.

At the Sport Horse Nationals, we received a Reserve Championship, and 3 TT's in our showing in these classes. The smallest class was 28, the largest was 38. But, we showed all 4 horses in Open and in ATH classes. All catagories, except conformation, are subject to the presentation., on a particular day-right? Wrong! Same horse, same judge, scores on conformation were as much as 20% different between the Open and ATH classes. Same horse, same class, I saw scores on conformation, more than 25% different between judges. Even worse, the unlicensed judge, determined the horses that were TT, because she scored very high and very low, according to her taste.

Sound familiar? Judging IS Subjective, SHIH or Halter. Politics had nothing to do with it, at Sport Horse Nationals, IMHO. So what was the problem?

rolleyes.gif
corbinmk
Dr. Sabine,

I'm wondering if Hania or any of her progeny was exported to Germany. If so, do you have any information about them? (I have a daughter of her half sister, *Higran, imported by Bill and Janet Lowe.) Verena Buschfort was the owner of Hania.

Thanks!
HLM
Good morning spiker

Number can e quite confusing to many, and as you will see in the AHRA database, that some mares had over 30 foals, which is impossible.

there are SE's which were exported from USA to Germany,thence Hungary, then England, thence Australia etc, and received each time a registration number of such country.

According to me records untol 1992- 3647 Se mares produced offspring and 1117 stallions were involved, from day one of international recording- producing c. 17000 offspring.
Give and take a 2% leverage.

Hansi
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