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2mntn
In looking at the photos posted on the AK Convention thread, I was impressed by the type and beauty of the Davenport horses featured.

The photo of one stallion in particular, Bah Rani LF, brought to mind another stallion, Shahloul. I am posting the photos of both horses here for your consideration.

Bah Rani LF photo by Christine Emmert - Shahloul photo by Judith Forbis

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Does anyone else see striking similarities in these horses? I suppose it should be no surprise that Arabians originating in the Desert should resemble each other. But I thought it might be interesting to discuss ancestral backgrounds and I would like to know more on that subject.

I confess I don't know much about the Davenports, other than reading brief articles about Homer, the Cravers and so on. Do I understand correctly that original Davenports were acquired in Turkey?

Regards,
Ray
Tous crins
Hi Ray,

Not Turkey. You need to buy the
Annotated Quest Go read the link.

just the first paragraph
(M)y primary object in going to the Syrian desert was to obtain Arab mares and stallions of absolute purity of blood that I could trace as coming from the great Anezeh tribe of Bedouins. That was my fixed idea in undertaking the journey.


Every horse is documented, many pictures too.


I don't have the reprint but the M Bowling talk was quite interesting at the AK Convention. They took 10 (?) samples of a Kuhaylan Nowag (sp) in Syria and neighbouring area (don't have my notes either) and analized the mitochondrial DNA to see if it traced to just one mare.

It didn't, there were 4 types I think. Biggest number similar to Milordka(sp?), two different types each similar to a different mares from Ali Pasha Sherif and I have forgotten what else. I wish I had a copy of the reprint. Fascinating. It would mean that more than one mare was at the origin of the strain.

The point is in this context that yes there were common ancestors with Ali Pasha Sherif horses.

Christine
karin
Interesting topic

I am just reading, know not much about Davenport horses. Saw one mare but she was lovely...go on..;-)
Georgia
Wow Ray, what a comparible picture to picture. incredible.

I'm not familiar with most Davenport lines, but may once it is traced back aways.

This sounds like a very interesting question and thread.. I look forward to reading more.

Georgia
anitae
I bumped up a thread of discussion from several months ago about the tribal sources of Davenport foundation horses and Egyptian foundation horses. See "Tribal Sources of SE horses". The short answer, by the way, is that many of the tribes are sources for both (no surprise) - especially Davenport and Blunt horses. Best if you read the thread from beginning to end.

Anita
2mntn
Thanks Anita,

I was involved in the "Tribal Sources" thread. I did like your "short answer", since I didn't have to go look up the answer in the back of the book. wink.gif

LMG has also pointed out, more than once, the fact that it is near impossible to find SE, or Arabians in general, who do not trace to Blunt horses.

Eyegor and I have similar taste in horses (I think). Joe, pardon me for not asking, but I needed a Curley picture to illustrate why I think we have similar taste and to further demonstrate how Arabian horse ancestory can been seen in present-day horses.

Here is my next example, this time using a Straight Spanish stallion and a Straight Egyptian stallion.

This is my SS stallion, Mandato. This is Joe's SE stallion, Bahir Ibn Kasmeen
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Photo of Mandato by me. Photo of Bahir Ibn Kasmeen by Georgia (I think).

The similarities are, again, striking (in my opinion). And the "common thread"? Blunt horses! smile.gif

Comments from anyone welcome.
Ray
LMG
Ray:

That's is not Curly that is Ravenwood Sheyk. I bred a mare to him and had a lovely checstnut filly, which unfortunately did not live long, but he is a little powerhouse of a horse.

Curly is on some of the other pictures which were posted on the AK Convention thread and as sired by Kazmeen Ibn Sheiko who was a show stopper even as an elderly horse. I have a daughter of his, which I will try to photograph and post.

Lorriee
2mntn
Lorriee,

Thanks for the correction. So how about this one? All the same comments I made before apply here. Sorry Joe! This one has you in it, so I hope it's correct. smile.gif

Mandato Curley

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment


Lorriee - do you see what I see? Or am I full-a-beans? biggrin.gif

Ray
LMG
Ray:

I think,most, but for some of us that are older than dirt, have never seen horses which were up close and personal with Blunt/Crabbet blood from forty years ago, so they cannot see a lot of similarities.

Spanish horses, at least the ones I was aware of, had a great deal of Blunt/Crabbet blood, with Skowronek which came into the blood lines via Lady Wentworth. The book published by Lady Wentworth, back in the 1945, (I have the second edition of 1962) is interesting from the standpoint of photos of Blunt/Crabbet before and after the introduction of Skowronek.

Just my opinion, I think a lot of the so-called straight egyptians may look much more like the pre-Skowronek introduction of Blunt/Crabbet horses than horses post that introduction into the Crabbet Stud. When I met Lady Anne Lytton in England in 1972, she told me that the introduction of Skowronek into the herd, improved the rear ends, but flattened the withers.

It is very interesting, however, to see the multiple photos of the stallion: Last Chance Too on the AK Convention thread. If he had been taken out and shown to me, without telling me what his breeding was, I would have suggested that he was just the picture of the Crabbet/Skowronek/Egyptian horses I bred when I first started. Look at this stallion's head. Short, broad between the eyes, large cheek bones, beautiful ears. Compact, with good bone in his legs, lovely hip and great tail set.

Another horse was Personic. It would be a hoot to have those, who think they know what various lines should look like, have this tall, beautiful stallion brought out and put a pedigree guestimate on a piece of paper. I doubt if many would have thought this horse was straight Davenport breeding, I'll bet anything, the knowledgeable would have guessed that he had Padron blood in him.

Another horse is Chris Cooper's bay stallion. That stallion has a head to stop one in one's tracks. Another Davenport who traces in all lines to the desert, without any of his progenitors making a stop over in England or Europe or even Egypt.

The further we get from asil blood the further we get from type (whatever that is) and although we may very well get excellant horses, we get Saddlearabs or Arabakneys or something akin - which is were we appear to be going with the AHA's blessing.

Cynthia Culbertson, in her talk to the Convention, pointed out how there is a tendency for breeders whether National or Regional, to try to produce a look or type which is one of personal or regional or national perception of an Arabian.
And as we all know, the Blunts were originally looking for horses which fit their English trained eye, to take back to England to refresh TB blood in England.

It was only after they had more experience and had let go of the preconceptions they brought to the Middle East, that they were to obtain the equine jewels, which were used by breeders all over the world and with the exception of some groups, are the substrate of nearly all Arabian Horse alive today.

A long answer to a short question, but, yes, of course, one should see similarities.

LMG
Georgia
Yes, Ray.. that is Curly in post #8..

What is the breeding of your Stallion.

Love the comparisons.

Georgia
Timecapsule Arabians
Vorrtex


2mntn
Lorriee - thank you for the long explanation - this is exactly what I thought I was observing in the horses. I really appreciate your insights. biggrin.gif

Georgia - Mandato is a son of *Barich De Washoe and out of *Revoltosa (Ocal x *Jalea III). When you go back five generations you find Egina, a daughter of Nana-Sahib. Nana-Sahib was by Razada (Shahzada - a Mootrub son out of a daughter of Riyala). Nana-Sahib was out of the Skowronek daughter Jalila who traces to Rodania. SO - *Barich De Washoe was double Malvito. Malvito was a son of Egina. Mandato has other lines to Nana-Sahib, as well. He also has other lines to Razada as the Spanish ended up importing Razada. Mandato is AHR # 303501 if you would like to look him up. biggrin.gif

As far as breeding, Mandato is doing fairly well. This 2005 colt, Shai Mandate, is an example of the Spanish/Egyptian cross - at least the way we define it now, a Straight Spanish and a Straight Egyptian. This was the first SE mare Mandato was bred to. Of course, being the breeder and owner, I'm a very "proud pappa". rolleyes.gif

Click to view attachment

I'm sure that some may think I am shamelessly plugging my own horses, but at the bottom of all this is the BIG question. Where do we go from here, breeding-wise and which horses get picked to carry the torch and what will that torch be? Will SS, or SE, or PP, or Russian mean anything, in the future? That sort of thing.

Best Regards,
Ray
diane
Where to from here? Pick a type and breed to it. What this thread (and others like it) are showing is the incredible variety within the Breed regardless of the naming tags - pedigree name, strain name, category name etc. The basic under-lying structures are there but there is variety. There's room for all, if we would only take the time to understand them all.

In the early 1980s I chose the straight Spanish stallion Destinado (Barich de Washoe x Zlabiya) to go over my Egyptian related mare. This was the first pedigree where I traced all the Spanish bloodlines back to the likes of Egyptian, Blunt, early Russian and desert bred. Simply because I didn't know the Spanish names! Its was a very interesting exercise. Then I started buying and borrowing (from the library) the books to follow the theories through... the history of the Arabian. At the same time, I started to really learn what the horse was all about and what the horse had to offer. Its a two pronged process. The history is useless without understanding the horse and vice-versa - the horse as a living creature will remain mystical if its history isn't understood.

smile.gif
2mntn
Hi Diane,

I thought Destinado was the most gorgeous stallion I had ever seen, back then. biggrin.gif Do you have any of his blood in your program now?

Ray
diane
quote=2mntn,Oct 24 2007, 02:47 AM : Hi Diane,
I thought Destinado was the most gorgeous stallion I had ever seen, back then. biggrin.gif Do you have any of his blood in your program now?
Ray
*

Absolutely, he certainly was promoted extremely well and had the photographs to go with this promotion. His handler (at the farm whilst in Australia) certainly could pose him for a review. Though knowing what I know now... wink.gif I wouldn't have done the breeding. I wanted his eyes - they were gorgeous. But wasn't to be, though he gave the filly another attribute which I was aware he had but didn't realise the full implications of back then. Learn something new every day / every foal etc. smile.gif

All my related Egyptian stock has Destinado somewhere in their pedigree. And I breed as much as possible away from this known attribute. Genetics can be very powerful ~ regardless of where they are in the pedigree wink.gif
2mntn
Diane,

PIcking a type to go with is one thing - what do you say to the folks who insist the horses remain Asil? Polish, Spanish, Russian and others would be excluded from types to pick from, eh?

Ray
Eyegor
Well Ray, that is a simple question, let them do what they wish without us interfering or telling them they are not doing things correctly.....I never have seen any reason to interfere with anyone else's dreams and wishes......It is they themselves who take the responsibility not you or I.......If someloves pure this, pure that or mixes thereof why are we the one's to question???
Never have I understood that position by anyone......
LMG
I think there is a middle ground. One does not want to mix everything together, flour, sugar, pepper, salt, chili powder, rice, beans, bacon, etc - and not have any pure flour or pure sugar or pure pepper to work with later.

One might get an interesting chili pie or one might get something that tastes pretty awful and once one have used up all the ingrediants and is unhappy with the outcome, then what does one do?

I don't mean to get into the purity definition thing at all. But, I've watched people, jump from one breeding group definition to another, never happy and then out and I've seen people bred horses by picking and choosing within different breeding groups to produce beautiful and useful horses for several generations of horse lives. One has to be as careful of using a label (man made) and assuming that it stands for a very specific phenotype (or genotype) as one also does in making horse goulash (figuratively.)

Personally I like goulash, that is an entirely different subject.

LMG
2mntn
Hi Joe,

The question may be simple enough but the answer, I feel, is far more complicated. Hopes and dreams are one thing. Responsible breeding is another.

What is of concern is the genetic pool of Asil horses and within that pool, the accessibility and availability of Asil horses far into the future. History can provide some lessons, but the modern application of those lessons may not only be inappropriate, but impossible. The history I refer to is this: Nations sent their representatives to the deserts of Arabia to obtain pure horses. Their objectives were twofold - bring back breeding stock intended to improve native stock and second, provide a base of pure breeding stock to build and maintain their own pure pool. What we have seen, however, is that these nations found it necessary to return to the desert to bring back more pure horses. So what happened to the purebred pool at home? Well, some died, some were stolen, some were fortunes of war, some were given away, some were sold but the driving force was the narrow genetic pool that sent them back to the desert. As a side-note, it is interesting that these narrow genetic pools also served to provide some excellent "outcrosses" to other pools.

Wealthy Americans made trips to the deserts of Arabia, brought horses back to the US and now we find ourselves noticing that these pedigrees are beginning to look rather tight. Some is purposeful, but for others there is just no other option to go with.

Today, we do not have the advantage of knowing that we can always send a contingent to the desert, where bands of Bedouins roam wild and free and maintain vast herds of pure horses. Herds which we can inspect and pick from at our leisure and send them home. Today, I have to look at your horses, Joe, and their pedigrees and decide if you have an outcross for me. What I may find is that what you have is more of the same as what I have. So I look to another breeder and discover the same problem, and then another and another and so on.

We have other disadvantages which include economic and free-market pressures. We do not have common goals. Every individual is free to do whatever they want and can afford. Organizations such as AHA and every horse club in the land are free to do whatever they want. The Arabian horse is being drug through the wringer at the whim of anyone and everyone who touches them.

The Babson horses are an example of my concern. How long can this pool be maintained without going "outside"? How long can the Davenports be maintained without going outside. How long can the Asil pool be maintained?

Perhaps these questions are nothing more than academic. We know that the human genome pool is actually quite narrow, indicating that the human species was nearly wiped out, probably due to some catastrophic event of nature. And we seem to be surviving and reproducing from that pool with enough diversity as to insure our future.

And so - what to do, what to do? Shall (and can) we maintain an Asil pool? Or shall we tell ourselves that this "Asil" term is just another label that only serves to inhibit? Shall we re-define "Asil"? Shall we identify a new species? Perhaps the Amerabian Halter Horse?

Whatever - much ado about nothing, possibly.

Ray
Seglavi
Ray,
Two breeders with vision and dedication come to my mind. They are Charles Craver, the savior of the Davenport horses, who with foresight has used his limited original pool of horses in a creative and diversity saving way, to create the modern Davenport horses which can continue indefinitely without outcrossing.
The Doyle family, following the vision of their father, has continued for nearly 60 years, breeding from the same two stallions and one mare to create the modern day Doyle Egyptian herd. They have added a little Babson blood and Pritzlaff blood along the way but maintain a sizeable herd that trace only to the original 3 ancestors. There will be a retrospective and celebration of their horses in central Oregon in conjunction with the 2009 Al Khamsa Convention. Hope you will be able to attend. The horses are amazing.
These two breeders can and will share their experiences and the education is fabulous.
Pam
LMG
There is an excellant PBS presentation of Nova which is called, I think, "The Ghost in Your Genes." It certainly is an eye opener. First was the surprise that humans had no more numbers of gene than fish or mice. Makes one think, doesn't it.? In fact, plants appear to have more total number of genes than we do.

The next time, one calls you a potted plant, it may be a compliment.

That which seems to be of greater importance is the mechanism which prevents the actions of certain genes. Exposure to smoking, alcohol, pesticides may have a greater impact on genetic expression (good) than we previously thought.
While genes may or may not be destiny, there appears to be a whole host of enviornmental events which have as likely an action which prevents one's good genetic material from protecting us. It was also theorized that these exposures may show greater expression in the grandchildren than in the children.

When I was first breeding horses, many used to talk about the intrauterine impact of the dam having greater influence on the foal, than just the genetic material inherited from both sire and dam. Having been a biologist, I used to think that this was another myths one hears from those without good scientific background.
Now, after seeing the above Nova, I am beginning to think there may have been something to observations made by early breeders, but for which they had no explanation.

This may or may not mean that small populations are doomed by having large concentrations of similar genes, any more that diverse genetic material is better, if such may be adversely impacted by enviornmental events.

LMG
anitae
Ray, your post posits quite important questions, and the questions are not merely academic. Actually, they probably cry out for some sound academic research, coupled with thoughtful discussion among serious breeders who care about the long-term future of the asil horse. These are exactly the questions being addressed by the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse. IF we want to continue to bred Asil horses (that is certainly one of the important questions), we need more information on the genetic diversity of the existing pool, and input from scientists who have a clue about breeding within closed gene pools.

Stay tuned; there will be more about this coming from the Institute in the next few weeks.
Anita

QUOTE (2mntn @ Oct 24 2007, 06:44 PM)
Hi Joe,

The question may be simple enough but the answer, I feel, is far more complicated.  Hopes and dreams are one thing.  Responsible breeding is another.

What is of concern is the genetic pool of Asil horses and within that pool, the accessibility and availability of Asil horses far into the future.  History can provide some lessons, but the modern application of those lessons may not only be inappropriate, but impossible. ....

(deleted some material)

We have other disadvantages which include economic and free-market pressures.  We do not have common goals.  Every individual is free to do whatever they want and can afford.  Organizations such as AHA and every horse club in the land are free to do whatever they want.  The Arabian horse is being drug through the wringer at the whim of anyone and everyone who touches them.     

The Babson horses are an example of my concern.  How long can this pool be maintained without going "outside"?  How long can the Davenports be maintained without going outside.  How long can the Asil pool be maintained?

Perhaps these questions are nothing more than academic.  We know that the human genome pool is actually quite narrow, indicating that the human species was nearly wiped out, probably due to some catastrophic event of nature.  And we seem to be surviving and reproducing from that pool with enough diversity as to insure our future. 

And so - what to do, what to do?  Shall (and can) we maintain an Asil pool?  Or shall we tell ourselves that this "Asil" term is just another label that only serves to inhibit?  Shall we re-define "Asil"?  Shall we identify a new species?  Perhaps the Amerabian Halter Horse?

Whatever - much ado about nothing, possibly.

Ray
*
2mntn
Thank you Lorriee and Pam,

Pam - the Doyle program sounds interesting. Could you give a horse name for one of them?

Lorriee - your analogy is a good one. Keep some pure flour for making something else. However, the genetics involved may give you back some pure flour, once in a while, as opposed to chocolate cake every time? blink.gif In spite of what we have observed when inbreeding occurs - things like serious mental and physical handicaps - it could also be the case, generally speaking, that a population could recover from one set of parents.

I suspect we humans don't have enough knowledge of how genetic code works in reproduction, and specifically in horses. Katrin mentioned an "experiment" in Europe and the Poco Bueno example in the thread "This is for Hansi". Let's take the European example. This experiment was conducted by one breeder using the same horses in the same locale. It is my belief that the physical environment has an impact on genetics and therefore, to have the experiment arrive at more conclusive evidence it would need to be conducted by the same breeder, same horses, but in several locations around the globe, over time, to induce the environmental influence. Nothing better to illustrate this than what can be found in and around the Gallepagos Islands. Also - it is my understanding that the Bedouins (of old) held the belief that once the horse was removed from the deserts, it would no longer be Asil. They could very well have a valid point, should the environment turn out to be of significant influence, and their definition of Asil remain the standard.

Perhaps nature has equipped the male of the species with millions upon millions of sperm in order to provide genetic diversity within each individual, thus assuring the survival of the species, should they be limited to only a few individuals.

Muttering in ignorance,
Ray
2mntn
Sounds great Anita! Thanks
diane
My thoughts... first off, Joe is absolutely correct. How anyone breeds is their prerogative. And this alone will be the be-all and end-all of the Arabian Horse as a Breed or even individual. The Bedouin did breed this way – this is evident by the way there is variety within the Breed. If the Breed was as homogonous as we would like it to be ie Standardised, then there wouldn’t be the variety!

SO... working with the variety we have what Lorriee has analogised – a mix of ingredients. And to complicate matters the ingredients all have a naming protocol. For right or wrong reasoning, the end result will be the same – like it or hate it, the Arabian Horse will always have variety. BUT ... only while there is diversity within the ownership to breed to one’s own prerogatives. The simple, and truly simple fact is ... that while an individual is eligible to registered as an 100% Arabian Horse, it is an Arabian Horse for the sake of its paper work. Regardless of what it looks like! Facts are facts.

The asil horse of the nomadic Bedouin was the same... the variety existed because the individuals were deemed asil by virtue of narrations (paperwork wasn't a generalised nomadic Bedouin thing).

Ray, the Breed isn’t pure, I’d challenge anyone to prove that it is. No-one has done this yet. However it does have very strict parameters in the terms of the nomadic Bedouin ie asil, non-asil etc. Westerners have romanticised it so much that the bare truth is hardly recognisable these days.

Your question was how can specialist groups cross out. My thoughts, if they the owner/breeder wants to cross out within asil or even non-asil but still Arabian and maintain registerability either as an Arabian Horse or as asil (ie asil x asil), then within the confines of any name tags, similar body shapes (types) need to be found. Scrutinised for soundness per the owner/breeder’s preferences and bred on from there. Your example of straight Spanish to straight Egyptian. Body type is body type. Body type is the result of a specific gene pool and referred to as phenotype. What the inner genotype has in store will only be apparent if it shows as a phenotype and/or an anomaly (for better or worse) in the individuals health and/or attributes.

The naming protocol is all well and good and really does need to be observed within the parameters set by the nomadic Bedouin or the alternatives that are now available with the Arabian Horse as a Breed (100%ers). But sometimes, the naming protocols need to be put aside if only to make a clinical decision. Particularly when there is a perceived need to cross out.

The vital fact to remember is that The Breed Standard as it is known today was not a nomadic Bedouin instrument. To breed an Arabian Horse, breeders should do so within the original parameters of the original Breeders... the nomadic Bedouin. Westerners may not be able to breed within the climatic or cultural conditions of the nomadic Bedouin but we sure can breed within their naming protocol parameters which allows for variety... if we want to smile.gif
2mntn
How anyone breeds is their own prerogative? This can't be true anywhere in the world, with the possible exception of a few isolated cases. There are many, many factors coming to bear on breeders. Factors which can be argued as taking "prerogative" out of the equation. IF a breeder accepts these outside influences and "takes ownership" of them, then it might be said that breeding is being done as a result of their own free choice.

Even the Bedu have a set of expectations with regard to what would be acceptable breeding. They are born into it and learn these expectations as they learn to walk and talk. So even their “free choice” is set within the accepted parameters of their environment. They are not free to breed stallion A to mare B just because they like the color that might result.

Breeding of Arabian horses occurring outside of a Bedouin tribe is driven by the economics and the expectations of the “industry” in general. To participate, or not, could be said to be a prerogative, but once involved the individual will be driven by external forces in making breeding decisions. And this is exactly the reason that folks like Hansi continue to pound the pulpit for what they believe in. (Hansi, this is my opinion only and you are free to deny it). Breeders will, and are, very much influenced by what is going on in the industry. If the highest-paid, most rewarded, most successful, most recognized, most publicized, most talked about and most admired Arabian horses are “garden ornaments”, then you can be sure that this is what breeders (generally speaking) are going to breed for. And if this is not your cup of tea, and you feel strongly that this direction is taking the Arabian horse to hell in a hand basket, then you might be expected to rant and rave and try to get some breeders to accept your ideas and incorporate them into their set of prerogatives.

I know that the species is not “pure”. I must be assuming, incorrectly, that when the word "pure", or "Asil" is used in discussions within Arabian horse breeding topics it is understood to be the Bedu definition and not the scientific definition.
diane
QUOTE (2mntn @ Oct 26 2007, 02:21 AM)
How anyone breeds is their own prerogative?  This can't be true anywhere in the world, with the possible exception of a few isolated cases.  There are many, many factors coming to bear on breeders.  Factors which can be argued as taking "prerogative" out of the equation.  IF a breeder accepts these outside influences and "takes ownership" of them, then it might be said that breeding is being done as a result of their own free choice.  
Even the Bedu have a set of expectations with regard to what would be acceptable breeding.  They are born into it and learn these expectations as they learn to walk and talk.  So even their “free choice” is set within the accepted parameters of their environment.  They are not free to breed stallion A to mare B just because they like the color that might result. 
Breeding of Arabian horses occurring outside of a Bedouin tribe is driven by the economics and the expectations of the “industry” in general.  To participate, or not, could be said to be a prerogative, but once involved the individual will be driven by external forces in making breeding decisions.  And this is exactly the reason that folks like Hansi continue to pound the pulpit for what they believe in.  (Hansi, this is my opinion only and you are free to deny it).  Breeders will, and are, very much influenced by what is going on in the industry.  If the highest-paid, most rewarded, most successful, most recognized, most publicized, most talked about and most admired Arabian horses are “garden ornaments”, then you can be sure that this is what breeders (generally speaking) are going to breed for.  And if this is not your cup of tea, and you feel strongly that this direction is taking the Arabian horse to hell in a hand basket, then you might be expected to rant and rave and try to get some breeders to accept your ideas and incorporate them into their set of prerogatives. 
I know that the species is not “pure”.  I must be assuming, incorrectly, that when the word "pure", or "Asil" is used in discussions within Arabian horse breeding topics it is understood to be the Bedu definition and not the scientific definition.
*


Ray, Your last statement first re pure - its an assumption which isn't readily understood. There are people who will fight tooth and nail to state that the Arabian is pure as in scientifically pure simply because this is what has been written and they have faith in the written word. The word pure is written, in that context, in many a book without any qualifications to its meaning. The more people write of the Arabian as being the oldest pedigreed breed in the world rather than purest will benefit the Breed in the long run for people who are involved with the Breed and also for people outside of the Breed but are horse folk. Everyone with the remotest bit of interest in equines knows a little bit about other breeds... technicalities, such as the assumption of pure, are left for the Breed enthusiast. Goodness, the Breed in general is known as the purebred Arabian Horse... asil or not.

Yes, Breeders of the Arabian Horse can use their prerogative when breeding the Arabian horse - as long as they are breeding within the understood parameters of the BREED per the traditions of original breeders, the nomadic Bedouin smile.gif Breeders' prerogatives are variable within the Breed - if, and only if, they breed to the original nomadic Bedouin preferences. It will allow the variety to remain in the Breed.

However, if people who are breeders of this wonderful Breed collude to breed only to the technical perfection as dictated by the somewhat artificial instrument - The Breed Standard - then there will be no prerogative, no preferences. But there will be alot of deceitful lies going on ... covered up by the show pose which is not only used in the show ring but also in any kind of publication and presentations! Its being done today and will continue on for many a year. What fools will the Arabian Horse enthusiast be if this is their main aim for the Breed! As mentioned, Hansi could well have the last laugh! The Breed hasn't been changed yet and its doubtful if it ever will be - such is Nature. But they are changing what is seen in the show ring. Judges are very much to blame for this as they condone what is expected (via peer pressure) in the show ring under the ruse of "perfection". And yes, your sentiments in your third paragraph do hold validity.

I make no excuses for my provocative way of thinking, Ray. But I challenge anyone to prove otherwise, in favour of the horse! Just one of many questions which can be asked... why are there compact and not so compact asil Arabians? Why is it that many authors of pre and very early 1900s writings claim that the Arabian Horse, as they saw them, were compact? How compact was compact? And compared to what type of compactness? Ask the questions Ray. But don't stop there, please do seek the answers ~ in favour of the horse. The Breed is much more than what can be seen in the showring and the glossy publications. There's too much most in your expression above and yet it does rule. People willingly and gullibly follow, its the Nature of the beast, so to speak! sad.gif

smile.gif
Georgia
Does this mean I have to shutup about the Saddlebred wanna beee's?

Liked what you said Diane about the breed standard.

Georgia
2mntn
By golly, Diane, I think we ARE on the same page! biggrin.gif Have you been playing devil's advocate with me?? cool.gif

Thanks for your response,
Ray
diane
Georgia,Oct 26 2007, 09:46 AM
Does this mean I have to shutup about the Saddlebred wanna beee's?
Liked what you said Diane about the breed standard.
Georgia
*

biggrin.gif thanks Georgia, though I really can't say re the Saddlebred comment - not having seen the American scene for myself. However, if people breed to a type, then its possible to have that type and still be registerable as an Arabian if the individual has the correct parentage wink.gif This is where it gets really interesting... comparing type to another type but still Arabian shouldn't happen. But people really do need to know what the conformational structures are about and any Arabian should still be unmistakebly Arabian when it moves smile.gif There is a lightness and gaiety to an Arabian which doesn't appear in many, if not all, other Breeds smile.gif
diane
great to read, Ray smile.gif Not so much the devil's advocate as trying to word it so it doesn't or can't be misunderstood smile.gif I can only explain if people query points that they are unsure about.
Eyegor
Diane,
as usual your posts are spot on and worthy of thought. Thanks fer posting and

Lorriee, let me just say that I find your posts to be both thought provoking and based in a logic on cannot argue with...

Ray, that's just it, most responsible breeders have a good grounding in equine genetics, you and perhaps even I are a small example.....I try to always make each breeding mean something and with the hope that based on genetics the foal will be better than both parents, we do not breed a lot and we do that only to replace that which we have sold trying to keep expenses to a bearable level....we will breed only those we feel need replacement and then only to partners suitable to improvement.....Not saying that all my choices have been perfect or even correct, what I am saying is that we try to better not just to have a foal.......
We are not at odds in this respect at alll,,,,,,,,
Regards,
Joe
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