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Cheryl L
The Pyramid Society has a new program out for performance horses. This is a positive step in the right direction. The information can be found in the links below:

http://www.pyramidsociety.org/

and the rules:

http://www.pyramidsociety.org/PdfInfo/2007...wardProgram.pdf


Please note: They need 100 people to sign up by November 2007. We have a couple of weeks to meet that deadline. If they meet the requirements, then the PS will give it a trial period of 3 years. So PLEASE look at it and if you are doing performance with your SE, Egyptian related, Egyptian sired, check out the recognised classes. There is something for everybody.

Cheryl
HLM
Thanks cheryl

I cant bring the details in, my Acrobat system does not show it. Where-else can I find the details please?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Cheryl L
Hi Hansi,
I copied most of the rules. This is a positive step forward and really needs to be taken advantage of.
Cheryl


Eligibility
All Canadian and US owned and registered Arabian horses who meet the present Pyramid
Society definition of Egyptian, Egyptian-Sired/Egyptian-Related/Egyptian-Bred are eligible to
be enrolled in this program.
Cost
This program is free to Pyramid Society members in good standing and available to non-Pyramid
Society members for an annual $50.00 enrollment fee (made payable to The Pyramid Society).
Note that the $50.00 enrollment fee is for the Egyptian, Egyptian-Sired/Egyptian-
Related/Egyptian-Bred Performance High Point Award only and does not confer nor constitute
full membership in the Pyramid Society.
Trial Period
The program will run for an initial trial period of three years (3), beginning in the year 2008,
contingent upon participation levels of 100 registrants by November, 2007. Each year the
program will be assessed with regards to participation levels and effectiveness. Full disclosure
of same is to be made to the Pyramid Society Board each year via a written report. Continuation
of the program is dependent on the program being adequately subscribed to and therefore is not
guaranteed.


Eligible Category Definitions
Western Pleasure Division
Classes: Western Pleasure, Ladies Sidesaddle
Designations: Open, AOTR, AAOTR, JOTR, ATR, JTR, Gentlemen and Ladies
English Performance Division
Classes: Country English Pleasure, English Pleasure, Park, Ladies Sidesaddle, Country Pleasure
Driving and Pleasure Driving, English Show Hack
Designations: Open, AOTR(D), MOTR(D), JOTR(D), ATR(D), JTR(D) Gentlemen and Ladies
Dressage
Classes: Dressage - all levels Training through Grand Prix
Designations: Open, AOTR, AAOTR, JOTR, ATR and JTR
Driving/Roadster
Classes: Carriage Pleasure Driving, Country, Open, Roadster, Endurance, Obstacle
Designations: Open, AOTD, AAOTD, JOTD, ATD, ATD and Novice
Eventing
Classes: All classes recognized by Equine Canada or the United States Eventing Association
Designations: Preliminary through Advanced
Hunter Pleasure
Classes: Hunter Pleasure
Designations: Open, AOIR, AAOTR, JOTR, ATR and JTR
Working Hunter/Jumper
Working Hunter, Jumper, Hunter Hack
Designations: Open, AOTR, AAOTR, JOTR, ATR and JTR
Working Western Division
Classes: Trail Horse, Reining, Freestyle Reining, Working Cow Horse, Cutting
Designations: Open, AOTR, AAOTR, JOTR, ATR and JTR
Sport Horse Performance Division
Classes: Sport Horse under saddle, Sport Horse Show Hack, Road Hack
Designations: Open, AAOTR, AOIH, JOTR, ATR and JTR
Competitive Trail/Endurance Ride
All points earned in a Competitive Trail, Endurance Ride or Ride & Tie will be eligible as long
as the ride is sanctioned by recognized governing organizations (see definition below). Rides
deemed as an AHA Championship Regional or Canadian National Championship rides will carry
the same number of points as any other Regional or Canadian National Championship class.
(Rides sanctioned by other recognized organizations and deemed as National Championships
will carry the same points as a National Championship class.)
4-H
All points earned in 4-H shows as long as the show is sanctioned by a 4-H.

Rules
1. Horse Owner(s) and/or Lessee(s) must be:
(A) Pyramid Society member in good standing as of the current membership
year as defined by the Pyramid Society (November 1).
Note: Only points earned after joining will count towards the High
Point Awards.
Or
(cool.gif Owners must have paid the annual Performance Horse Award
Program fee of $50.00 US in full before any points will count towards the
Performance High Point Awards.
2. Horses MUST be Straight Egyptian, Egyptian-Sired/Egyptian-Related/Egyptian-Bred as
defined by the Pyramid Society.
3. Entries are to be submitted as an owner or lessee/horse combination. Each different
combination will require a separate entry and fee.
4. Shows conducted only within the geographic area of North America are eligible.
5. Points must be won on a horse registered with one of the following registries:
a) Canadian Arabian Horse Registry
cool.gif Arabian Horse Association
Proof of registration must be available upon request.
6. All disputes regarding points are to be forwarded to the Performance Horse Award
committee for their review. Please include all supporting paperwork. THE DECISION
OF THE PERFOMANCE HORSE AWARD COMMITTEE IS FINAL.
7. All ties will be broken by the number of points earned at the next level. For example – 1st
place ties will be broken by the number of points earned by the owner/horse in 2nd place
finishes and so forth.


Pyramid Society Performance Award Program
Eligible Points
Recognized Governing Organizations (preliminary list – subject to additions)
4H = 4H
AHA = Arabian Horse Association
AERC = American Endurance Ride Conference
EC = Equine Canada
EE = Egyptian Event
NATRC = North America Trail Ride Conference
NRHA = National Reining Horse Association
NCHA = National Cutting Horse Association
NRCHA= National Reined Cow Horse Association
USEA=United States Eventing Association
USEF = United States Equestrian Federation
hereinafter defined as “Recognized Organizations”
1. All points must be earned at a Rated Show of a Recognized Organization (no schooling
shows). Shows that operate under separate approval shall count as separate shows.
2. Points are tabulated from January 1st to December 31st of the current year. For example,
points accumulated from January 1, 2008 through to December 31, 2008 will be eligible
for the 2008 Performance Horse Award.
3. All points earned for the current year to be applied to the Performance Horse Award
Program must be submitted to the High Point Secretary on or before January 31st of the
following year. No carry-over of points from one year to the next will be allowed.
4. It is the sole responsibility of the owner/lessee(s) of the horse to submit their entry form
and notify the High Point Secretary of any changes in their point total, on or before
January 31st of the following program year (for example, 2008 points must be submitted
by January 31, 2009). LATE ENTRIES WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED.
5. Results of the Performance High Point Awards will be published on the Pyramid Society
website and copies will be mailed only upon written request.
6. Payment to the Top Five winners will be sent on or before March 15th of the following
program year (2008 winners will be paid out on or before March 15, 2009).
Pyramid Society Performance Award Program



Point System
Regular Shows (includes 4-H)
Regular Class:
1st = 6 points, 2= 5 points, 3= 4 points, 4th 3 points, 5th = 2 points, 6th = points
Championship/Stakes Class: 1st = 10 points, Reserve (2nd) = 8 points, 3rd = 7 points,
4th=6 points, 5th=5 points, 6th=points, 7th= 3 points, 8th= 2 points
Regionals, Western Canadian Breeders, Eastern Canadian Breeders, East Coast
Championships, Pacific Slopes Championships, Cal-Bred, Scottsdale:
Champion = 20 points, Reserve Champion = 18 points, Remaining Top Five = 15 points
Canadian and US Nationals or similar national championship level in Recognized
Organization:
Champion = 30 points, Reserve Champion 25 points, Remaining Top Ten = 20 points
AERC
In the case of Endurance/Competitive Trail Events a Best Condition Award is to be considered
the equivalent of a Champion placing.
Awards
1. High Point Awards will be awarded to the Top Five Owner/Horse combinations earning
the greatest number of points calculated by the Point System outlined above.
2. Award will be in the form of a cash prize accompanied by a certificate.
3. The amount of the cash prize will vary each year depending on the “pool” of cash
available, which depends on sponsorships and registrations received by the program.
However, the minimum paid out will be $5,000.00 US. The cash prizes will be paid out
as follows:
1st Place 50% of the prize pool
2nd Place 40 % of the remaining prize pool
3rd Place 30 % of the remaining prize pool
4th Place 20% of the remaining prize pool
5th Place 10% of the remaining prize pool
4. Winners will be featured in the Pyramid Society’s Chariot and on the Pyramid Society
website as well as highlighted at the Egyptian Event.
larapintavian
Hmmmm .... wonder why they included 4-H but left out the Pony Clubs? PC is NOT just for ponies! It is also the largest International instructional program for youth up through 21 (in the U.S. age 25 cut off) in horse sports with huge membership in boh U.S. and Canada. While many competitions are team based, others such as Dressage and Jumping also have individual competition at local, regional and national levels.

I also am concerned that, from the links posted, there is no difference in Dressage points whether at the very beginning level or 4th level, or even Intermediare or even Grand Prix. Where is the incentive to further develop skills? Is there another point table not yet posted for those sports with advancing skill levels?

Where do I find the distinction in points for Endurance horses between those doing Limited Distance (usually 25 miles), 50 miles, or full 100s? (Why do 100 if you get the same number of points for a placing at 25?) It also takes considerably more time and expended effort to place at even 25 miles than to take a ribbon in a single AHA rail class lasting only a few minutes.... is this difference listed somewhere that I am missing it, or did I simply misread?

Surely there is more to the points schedule than appears in the link.

Oh, almost forgot ..... Eventing is a TRIATHALON .... the horse must do a Dressage test + Show Jumping + Cross Country Jumping, the Cross Country phase alone (even at the lowest level) having at least DOUBLE the number of fences of an AHA show jumping course. According to the linked points schedule, these lower level Eventers would perform the equivalent of FOUR regular classes to get the same points as a SINGLE show dressage ride or jumper course (upper level, with longer courses equivalent of 5 classes plus having higher jumps than anything AHA has to offer) ..... why even try Eventing, other than the fact that properly ridden Arabs excell at it.

I was under the impression that there was a schedule being worked on which would recognize the differences in the sports with ascending levels of difficulty (Dressage, Endurance, Eventing, Combined Driving) as well as the triathalon aspects of Eventing and Combined Driving (come to think of it, did I see CD even listed?). Am I misreading, or is it just not posted yet? (I hope it's one of those two.)

Sharon Jackson
Larapinta Sport Horses
HLM
thanks cheryl, I appreciate this. I agree with Larapintavian, things have to be scheduled better .
did I overlook "flat racing" one of the stress performances?
If it is not considered, it should be.

What about the endurance rides at the EE? Are they included?

the entire program sounds great to me and the point system is similar to the Legion of Merit system. I pray that Germany will also adopt this program, that will divide the shaff from the wheat, ha. this is an excellent start and I cant wait to see the results, which should be excellent for many entries. this would give some garden ornaments a chance to reclaim the defintion "Horse".

Who ever thought of this progam needs to be saluted..

Now, where do we get the entry from, because we like to join. Dont have many
SEs anymore, some too old, some a bit young, but the latter worth while to give it a run. Just to take part in it I consider an HONOR! tHEREFORE, FOLKS, SIGN UP AND LETS GIVE IT ALL WE CAN AND HAVE.

thanks again
Hansi biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.
Cheryl L
Entry forms are on the Pyramid Societies web page. The first link.

This is a good start for the PS to promote and encourage and recognise, riders that show in different disciplines. If they don't get the entries, this will NOT go on. They need 100 by November to have signed up. If people want more classes, they can talk to the PS.
Yes the EE is recognised.
Cheryl

By the way, I am not a PS member, just thought this program, needed to be helped along a little.
JacqueB
Eventing
Classes: All classes recognized by Equine Canada or the United States Eventing Association
Designations: Preliminary through Advanced


Since I'm not currently riding in this discipline I haven't investigated this, but I'm confused by the statement of "all classes" and then the designation of prelim - advanced. USEA recognizes a Novice Horse trial if run according to it's regulations. A horse trial doesn't have the roads & tracks, endurance segment of the 3 day event and can be done in 2 days.
But it's about a 1st level dressage test and then 2'11" jumps for stadium & cross country.
If I completed a Novice Horse Trial, I'd be stinking awful to be around for at least a day, obnoxiously happy. So I'm thinking that whoever set the program up was ignorant of what a 3 day event is and what a horse trial is what the USEA recognizes. Prelim - advanced are riders and horses comparable to Prix St. George - Grand Prix in dressage - way up there, except the Eventing riders risk their lives & their horses, really brave riders and horses.
When I get back into doing horse trials I guess I'll ask the questions. Right now I'm staying on the ground with dressage and endurance, maybe use cavalettis in the high position from time to time biggrin.gif .
Jacque
larapintavian
Jacque,

I asked that very question too. I know Deb was working on it ... she even took the Eventing specs chart to the meetings with her (showing Beg. Nov thru Adv.) so that comparisons could be drawn against individual AHA classes. I never heard back from her, so I guess she didn't get any support.

I fully agree about your example of the Novice eventer .... my SE is at that level ready to start ... so he'd have to do the 1st level Dressage test PLUS the 2'11" Show Jumping of 9-11 fences PLUS the 2'11" solid fence cross country course of 16-20 fences including 3'11" DROPS and water .... for the same points as a walk, trot, canter rail pleasre class, and in the Horse Trial he'd also have a MINIMUM of 10 horses in his class, not the 3-5 in an AHA class. Even in an AHA hunter class he'd be required only 8 fences. And you don't jump on grass, uneven terrain, uphill and downhill in an AHA show, or even do Dressage on the grass.

Here's the OFFICIAL chart of the SPECS for USEA/USEF Horse Trials straight from the rule book:
Click to view attachment
(Click to enlarge)

E-sired CL Emmersom will be Eventing Horse Trials at Prelim next season ..... just finished a clinic with Jim Wofford last week .... but it takes at LEAST 4 YEARS of competition to reach that level. This is an FEI level of competition (equivalent to CIC*), and all the fences at that level,, stadium and XC are larger (3'7" including 5'3" drops with water and triple compbinations) than anything even AHA SHN Nationals requires, plus having a total of 4 times as many jumping efforts ( in stadium, 11-13 plus 28 - 32 more on XC) PLUS the second level Dressage test, and usually with a minimum of 10 horses in the class....... again, for the same points as a horse doing walk, trot, canter in an AHA pleasure class with maybe 3-5 competitors, or an AHA ammy jumper class at 3'3", NO drops or water and only a TOTAL of 8 fences required and that in a flat, groomed, arena?

I want to sincerely thank Deb for her efforts in getting this dicrepancy recognized even though, apparently, others can't 'see' what is required of these horses for each competition and EVERY competition.

It's not easy to figure out ... the AHA Eventing Sub Committee is having to redo the achievment points because those, too, were set up by people who did not understand the sport, any of it's "forms" (Combined Test and Horse Trial...Beg. Nov through Adv; Three Day Event ... Training Level through Adv: and CIC and CCI ....1/2* thru **** which are the FEI equivalen of HTs and 3DEs) or complexities.

Unfortunately, I will not be able to enter my Eventers in the program as it stands. I had truely looked forward to participating, but they'd have to do 4 to 5 times the work for each point, and I'm not crazy enough to work them to death chasing unfair points. For the same reason, they've never been entered into the AHA achiement program yet either..... to earn an award through Eventing alone, you'd have to complete more often, more times, and wear the horses legs completely out. At least in the AHA system, rail horses, endurance horses, and Eventers are not competing directly against each other.

Jacque .... I surely hope you DO return to Eventing, even though altigether too many "Arab people" are totally in the dark about what these horses accomplish with each and every competition.

Hansi, I apoplogize for forgetting those spectacular race horses. IMO they definitely ARE a huge part of the performance picture Many Eventers, particularly TB, QH and Paint, are off track horses who have gone on to new careers. Chrissi even saw an off track Arab at an event in Texas last autumn ... it won the Novice division.

Sharon Jackson
AHA Eventing/Driving Committee
Eventing SubCommittee Coordinator '06 & '07
HLM
Goodmorning all

Dear Sharon

some of us dont know if we even get a hrose ready next year, because f age etc.
However, that should not prevent people from entering and paying that $ 50.00, unless it states "you must enter and win", which I doubt. the horses we consider are only two years old and could not possibly start under saddle until middle of 2008.It take at least six months to get them even out of the gate(flat racing)
sometimes longer. But I thought it at least shows "good will" for this program.
It also does not guarantee that any of the entries win anything at all.


We are not PS members either. So may be it is worth also your $ 50,00 to get those 100 people/entries together? May be others could do the same.
So much work has already gone into this program I feel, so I pray that it will not die.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabnian Farms
Cheryl L
Hansi,
That is the attitude that I have. Let's try to keep this program alive. I was debating entering my horse, but, I just had to put in a new furnace and I need a new hot water heater. I am trying to justify sending my horse to the trainers, which I cannot do, club memberships (EMAA, AHA, USEF). I just can't swing that extra money right now.
I just hope that someone else is able to. This program is in its infancy and can be really be made into something else.
Cheryl
JacqueB
I posted this in another thread on this topic, but I have entered my 2 mares for 2008. One has only been sat on a few times, the other is relaxed & going on the bit. so the most I can hope for with these young girls is training level dressage tests and hope that my rickety old vertebral column can be supple enough to do the job competently.
Jacque
larapintavian
Hansi, Cheryl, and all

It's NOT about 'winning' .... it's about recognition of the amount of effort, training, soundness, etc. To me the 'points', win or lose, RECOGNIZE what the horse is actually doing.

We, too, are not financially able to compete very often .... 1 - 3 times a year .... so I doubt very seriously if 'winning' would ever be in the picture whether show or eventing, but at some point I want my horse's abilities and successes to be recognized according to what they are actually accomplishing.

The points accumulated are simply, to me, a recognition of the effort it took to earn them, no matter how many they actually get.... INOW, what the horse had to be able to do. If I see a horse with 'x' number of points, did he get them from competing in 4 hunter pleasure classses or 4 fifty-mile endurance rides? To me, athletically, there is no comparison .... the endurance horse had to show far more stamina, soundness, and willingness over a much longer period of time to earn his points than did the show pleasure horse. In my younger years I DID ride those 50 mile rides and I assure you, those horses are expending much more effort than a few trips around the show ring on a manicured surface.

No, it's NOT about winning anything. We get our wins enough in the USEA, where our Arabs hold their own with all breeds. It's about recognition, from our own breed ... recognition of what these athletes are REALLY doing each time out.

This includes ALL the disciplines ... especially those with ascending levels of expertise. A Training Level Dressage test is in no way the same, athletically or any other way, as a Prix de St. George Dressage ride. An LD Endurance race is not the same as a 100 mile race ..... surely that's NOT rocket science. And a triathalon, requiring three complete tests of three different disciplines combined is not the same as a single ride in one of those disciplines.

If all disciplines are to be recognized on the same point scale, then the scale must be balanced to reflect the effort and expertise required of each level of each discipline.

Rail classes have only ONE level .... whether the horse is local, regional, or national quality is determined by how accomplished he is in that ONE level. Dressage, Eventing, Combined Driving, and Endurance have MUTIPLE ASCENDING levels. A horse may be local, regional, or national quality at any individual 'level' depending on his performance at that level, but each ascending level requires greater ability and training than the one before it. Training Level Dressage is more on an equal with a rail class ... all the other Dressage levels require, sequencially, MORE training and ability and should be so recognized.

No, it's definitely NOT about winning anything. It's about encouraging people to continue to expand their horizons, and recognizing when they do.

Sharon
Georgia
This is great.. I hope that geldings get a little more reconition..just a little extra piece of the pie. This is a little late for me and my 29 year old, but I hope people sign up even if they are not ready.

I'm not a PS member either and have not been for a several decades, so I'm hoping they get the word out to all the masses that dropped out even decades ago like me. Some of us don't even get the Arab Horse Magazines or belong to AHA.

Thanks Cheryl for having your ear to the ground and posting this very important information here.

Looks like it needs some fine tuning, but yes it is a start and there are those SE
out there that are actually doing something to get a foothold.

Thanks again Cheryl.
Georgia
Cheryl L
I cannot take the credit here. This stemmed from Carol Maginn's idea, about having literature available at the meeting at Nationals. I just gave it its own thread.

By the way, I don't know how those smilies got on the rules for the program. I did NOT put them on there, well at least not intentionally.
Cheryl
JacqueB
Sharon, I totally agree with you.
Maybe it's because I didn't start riding til I was 50 and glad to accomplish anything under saddle, like staying in the saddle during a day of foxhunting, and maybe because I was "brought up" in the horsey world with the Pony Clubbers and the combined training folk, but it has always been about doing your best. I've observed the father & son team of Olympic eventers watch each others final phase of a 3 day event in the stadium jumping - their horses didn't win or place, but they had specific goals for those horses and they were pleased with their progress and happy with their results.
I've got my eye on getting 65's for my 3 horses I plan to enter in the May 2008 recognized dressage test (1 of the horses is a Norwegian Fjord), it's very likely that a 65 will not place me in the top 5 of horses showing that day. But I will be ecstatic if I reach my goal and will feel like I have represented well the abilities of my horses.
Of course, I feel strongly that you should put your straights out there with all other breeds, but there has got to be some recognition for the athletic ability of your breed with in your own breed, otherwise, there is no point in breeding them - being pretty doesn't rank with me, you've got to have the trainable temperament and the structure to do some kind of work/performance, which I"m discovering is the beauty of the Arabian, the variety of work it can do.
Jacque
HLM
Dear Sharon, Cheryl and all

Personally, I dont think it is a good idea to "Name" a horse for an entry,
one never knows what can happen to such a horse, or any horse.

Would it not be a better idea to enter the program and and then name the horses which indeed competed, etc? Is it not a better idea to test the horse/horses first at home and then see which one would present the SEs well against tough competition?

To get this program off its feet, would not my thoughts bare some consideration?
I saw at the AK Convention numerous horses at the Metzes,Cruz,other breeders which would make it hard to decide which one to enter, espcially the stallions.
Ray and Marcia Ellis also have some who could be formidale competitors,
but which one eh, unless tested.

I am also thinking this way because the SEs have been out of the show rings for so long, that it takes trial and error again to make a decision. As you all can imagine the eyes will be upon SE entries, as it was 40 years ago.

We have three super two year old colts here, and I would not know which one to enter, because they are so alike in everything. However, the clue would come when we start putting them under saddle.Cant enter all three in one class either,
so you see what I mean?

May be the requirements could be adjusted? At least may be for the first year?
I think we need to utilize every idea to make this work and get those SEs to compete, but when we do, let it be what has a chance. this does not mean they have to win, but they should be good representatives.

Alternative of course would be, if one enters at the endurance races at the EE next year. For this one can get a horse ready to do at least those 25 milers.
That would be a good start too, I think.

Please dont anybody misunderstand me, I am not saying that all SEs have to be super, I am just saying that there are some which could break down just going around the block. therefore testing at home is very important.

Just my opinion, what do you all say? We all need a break, dont you think?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
jsimicek
We will be signing up a couple of horses. One will be too young to possibly compete enough to win any of the prizes and will be lucky to be shown in just a couple of performance classes next year as he is just starting undersaddle now. And the stallions will have to compete around breeding schedules but we think the program deserves support and are going to sign a couple up just to show the PS we want the program even though we know we won't have chance to compete enough to win any of the money next year. No its not perfect but its a step in the right direction and I think we need to be supportive of it. Any kinks can be ironed out as it progresses but lets get it enough entries to get it established first. JMO

Sandy
larapintavian
QUOTE (JacqueB @ Oct 20 2007, 10:47 PM)
Eventing
Classes: All classes recognized by Equine Canada or the United States Eventing Association
Designations: Preliminary through Advanced


JacqueB is correct .... according to the rules, my SE wouldn't be 'qualified' for the PS performance program since he'd be 'only a Novice', the 2nd U.S. eventing level (although that level is recognized in U.S. and in Canada as 'Pre Training').

I could take him to a regular AHA show and get recogniztion for:
1. a rail class,
2. a Training Level DRESSAGE test,
3. then an ammy Hunter O/F class (those are usually set at 2'9", with 8 fences)
I could get points for EACH or any one of those classes if he places.

BUT, even if he were to win a USEA/USEF Novice Horse Trial .... a combination of three disciplines that must ALL be completed constitutes ONE class, he could not be included, even though he'd be doing higher levels and fences than at many AHA shows.

As an Eventing NOVICE, at a Horse Trial he has to perform:
1.a FIRST level Dressage PLUS
1.b. a Jumper course of 9-13 fences actually set at 2'11" with a double combination required, PLUS
1.c. a Cross Country test with a required 16-20 solid jumps, water, & drops)

According to the above quoted rule, this 3-part 'combination class' (in which all three phases must be completed to count) is NOT ELIGIBLE TO EVEN BE COUNTED IN THE PS PROGRAM. This is a real slap in the face .... horses performing at this level in USEA or EC are apparently not 'accomplished' enough for PS .... but horses performing ANY ONE of the three separate classes (disciplines) in a 'regular' show ARE acceptable, AND eligible to count EACH class or phase individually.

Heck, Emmersom won't be eligible for the PS program until he actually does that first Prelim (read: the 4th of 6 RECOGNIZED Eventing levles; the beginning of the UPPER levels, equivalent with FEI INTERNATIONAL levels). Even though he's already WON two out of three Training Level Events he's entered ( NOT Training Level Dressage .... in Eventing, Training is the THIRD LEVEL) .... and he presumably can do it again.

ONLY WHEN my horses can do Prelim , which will count as ONE class in the PS program can they qualify for ANY points. Again, at that llevel the horse must COMPLETE ALL THREE PHASES where he must successfully perform:
1.a Dressage test SECOND LEVEL....PLUS
1.b. Jumper course of 11-13 fences accurately set at 3'7" and including Triple Bar, and AT LEAST two double or one double and one triple cominations.....higher and more complicated than AHA SHN Jumper competition ...PLUS
1.c. Cross Country Course REQUIRED 24-32 solid 3'7" fences, jump into and out of water, bank complexes, coffins, corners, drops 5'3", sunken roads,etc.


THEN and ONLY THEN, completing the ENTIRE TRIATHALON AT THIS LEVEL is the Eventing horse deemed accomplished enough by the PS to recieve the same points as a horse doing ONE rail class in an AHA show.

THAT is WHY we cannot enter our horses .... they're not accomplished enough according to the PS rules..... they must not be sufficiently trained, I guess.

Rant over

I'm still proud of my less than PS acceptable Egyptian bred performers.

Em at the water in and out on the Cross Country section of a USEA/USEF TRAINING Level HT (3rd eventing level) that he won in Kansas ....not adequate for PS points.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Em executing part of the bank complex on the Cross Country of another USEA/USEF TRAINING level HT (remember, it's the 3rd eventing level) that he also won in Texas, and there were an additional 21 jumping efforts on that same course...... not considered athletically adequate for the PS program, even with both the 1st level Dressage test and Show Jumping tests included.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Anne-Louise
Hi Sharon,

I realise, after reading your comments, that you are upset with Performance Horse Award programme, and can see the difficulties that you point out in your posts. But, I would also like to ask you to realise that Deb Charnuski put a LOT of effort into designing this programme, and tried her best to accommodate everyone she could possibly think of who would be competing in the open ring with their Straight Egyptian horses. It was certainly not her intention, nor The Pyramid Society's when the idea for the programme was approved with cheers for her initiative, to upset anyone who is already working with their horses in open competition, and, as I don't think she competes in Eventing she was doing her best to make sure that she had everyone included: I am absoutely, 100% positive that she most certainly wasn't trying to slap ANYONE in the face. Deb is a wonderful, positive, hardworking and optimistic young breeder who truly believes in the versatility of the Egyptian Arabian horse and wanted to do something good for the breed.

I really, really admire Deb for setting up this programme. I really, really appreciate her willingness to jump in and work for not only The Pyramid Society and it's members but for EVERYONE who has an Egyptian Arabian and competes in open competition. If, in a division in which she doesn't compete, there has somehow been an oversight in how points are arranged, please understand that it is not The Pyramid Society nor it's very hard working volunteer members with great ideas like Deb Charnuski "deeming" anyone unimportant. This is the inaugural year of a really wonderful effort. I wish that instead of being so critical of her hard work, and it has been a LOT of work, perhaps you could help her to better understand the Eventing world so that she can tailor that part of this programme to better suit your needs - I am not sure if she can change it this year, but I am positive that if you just talk to her about why you are so upset she will do her best - if not this year then next - to make the programme as fair as she can for everyone.

Sachi and I are signing up! Thanks Deb!

Anne-Louise
larapintavian
Anne-Louise,

I beilieve if you'll read my former posts completely, you'll find where I praised Deb's work and efforts. We HAVE corresponded and she gave me the impression that she fully understood the demands on an Eventing horse even at the lower levels. She took the specifications for Eventing H.T. levels to the meetings and said she would write me back. Since I never heard from her again, I presumed (and yes, I know I shouldn't presume) that she had met with resistance from others. The links provided by the OP confirmed that.

Sorry, but it IS an affront that horses performing at Eventing Novice and Training level s(avatar and previous pics) are considered unworthy to even be included in the PS program, even though EACH INDIVIDUAL phase at those levels has requirements equalling or exceeding those in the AHA show ring for it's single classes that ARE approved.

THAT is the rub ... individual classes of the SAME or LESSER demands ARE approved for the PS program while the combination of those classes is not considered good enough. Only when two of the individual parts of the comination completely EXCEED the qualifications of the individual classes is the triathalon deemed 'worthy', and then all three of it's phases combined are considered equivalent to only ONE of the other individual classes.

All I can figure is that no one was willing to actually check the Eventing specifications table that was provided for them, against the AHA Hunter/Jumper specs for size and number of efforts as set out in the AHA Handbook and USEF rule book. Also, apparently, no one wants to admit that a TRIATHALON at least triples the effort of a single class.....even when at least two of it's parts exceed the requirements of that single class.

They want to recognize Eventers in the UPPER THREE (FEI) levels ONLY. As mentioned by a different poster before, that's exactly like admitting only the Dressage horses in the FEI levels. We KNOW they include the lower Dressage levels .... just not the lower Event levels even though they, too, start with the SAME level of Dressage PLUS the two O/F phases. WHY?????

What is wrong with Eventing that it's competitors must achieve HIGHER standards ... and that times three ..... than any of the other accepted disciplines to be admitted for the PS program??? How does combining those disciplines (Dressage, Jumping, XC Jumping) into a versatile triathalon suddenly make them LESS worthy unless the standards for the individual sections are exceeded???
JacqueB
Hi Sharon,
I think that it is important for you to spell out what is the real work/accomplishment of the horse & rider in a horse trail as well as a 3 day event and what is recognized by the governing body of the sport -USEA and it's relation to the Pyramid Society's performance program so that the board and others by becoming more informed will amend the program.
Unless you shake the tree the fruit won't fall.
My hope is they are totally ignorant, absolutely clueless, therefore once the whole scenario is laid out for them changes will be made appropriately. I mean, wasn't that your 1st take on looking at the requirements for the eventing - "you've got to be kidding!" & LOL was my first response, these people obviously don't know a thing about the sport.
Forgive them for their ignorance, but fight like the devil so they know the real story and get your horses recognized!
I'm with ya,
Jacque
larapintavian
Thanks Jacque,

I just went to your profile and pulled up your lovely web site. So you're an OPRC rated C1 ... Congratulations! No wonder you actually KNOW what I'm talking about ... regular volunteer at a CCI* too!

I, as mentioned earlier, was a distance rider. When my daughter started Pony Club, and discovered Eventing my riding came to a screeching halt as the demands of PC and eventually USCTA (now USEA) Young Riders program took all available resources and time.

Daughter Chrissi went through PC on purebred Arabs, graduating as a nationally rated H-A. She did the USCTA Young Riders team championships (a CCN*) in North Georgia back in 1991 (I think) ..... second place team ... and she was riding a purebred Arab. Had so many people in front of his stall while she was saddling for Cross Country, asking questions like ":... is he REALLY a PUREBRED Arab?" etc, that team coach Mike Huber finally had to ask them to leave so we could get the horse ready! I aksed Mike how much 'flack' he was taking from the other coaches for having an Arab on his team and his answer was "...a little, but I just told him to get out there and WATCH HIM GO."

Chris rode the same purebred, MJM Nadezhda, to the Silver Medal Riders Award (Intermediate level) and the Area V Intermediate Horse Championship and Intermediate Rider Reserve Championship (second to Mike Huber).....the only time these have been accomplished on an Arab in the U.S. (same with being selected to the YR team).

The E-sired CL Emmersom (in avatar and pics) is a Thee Desperado grandson.....saw on your site that you have some TD lines. He has the promise to outdo the earlier horse, but I don't know if Chris will have the time and $$ now that she's an adult with a full time job and a child. So far, they have won two Young Event Horse - 4 competitions; Novice 1st, 2nd (lost by 1/2 point) and 5th; and Training Level 2 wins. Em has another TL (after a 2 month break that stretched to 5 months with the repeated flooding here) in November, should move to Prelim next spring.

I don't know HOW to make explanations any plainer at this point .... just dealing with Horse Trials seems to be all they can handle .....the chart is self-explanatory if anyone bothers to read. Looking up the AHA Hunter/Jumper specs for comparison (in the AHA Handbook) is a lot more difficult. I'm afraid to start comparing the differences between HTs and long format Three Days.

Anyway, as you well know, ... the VAST MAJORITY of ALL Eventers of ANY BREED are in the lower three levels: (1) Beginner Novice (2) Novice (3) Training. Actually, it's something like 93% that compete in those recognized levels. Why the PS excludes them is beyond me.

I think when the PS group were looking up the Eventing points system they were actually looking at the GRADING system instead of the year end points for each of the levels.... again, as you know, 'grades' are awarded only to the upper levels, and I doubt whether anyone even checked to see what the requirements are for any of the levels. There have been only 3 acknowledged purebreds in the U.S. to attain a Grade in the last 25+ years: one grade III, and two grade II .... and only 1 of those purebreds reached Intermediate level. There have been others in Canada, but I don't currently have access to their records. I did share all this info with Deb a couple of months ago.

Thanks again for your understanding and support, and please visit my daughter's site ... it's in my profile.

As for the ".... you've got to be kidding" response when first reading the requirements for the various eventing levels ....... I'm just glad I DIDN'T read them when Chrissi started all this. If I had known what all it entailed, I would have passed out then and there! You don't know HOW many times over the years (21 now) my heart's been in my throat while I listened to the cross country judges radio in ..... "rider #__ clear fence #___" and mentally pictured her small (by event horse standards) Arab approaching each big, intimidating fence, breathing a sigh of relief with each 'clear' call. I have tons of video tape catching as many fences as I could see .... never could afford the official photographers videos, lol.

Maybe someday more people in the very isolated Arab community will become more educated about the much larger horse world .... but it will be too late for many of the Arabs that have proved that our breed still has what it takes. After more than 20 years I'm still very sad to say that people continue to say our Arabs are "exceptions", that most of the breed can't do anything and are crazy idiots. We keep telling them that ours are NOT exceptions and that most Arabs could do well if they were given the chance..... but until they actually SEE more of them out there doing well, old perceptions die hard.
DebC
Sorry to be so late in addressing everyone's concerns. I have been busy getting information ready for US Nationals in order to promote this program so have not been following the boards much lately. Some of you may have also seen the mass email that was sent out by Scott Bailey's site as well.

Please note the program is a "living document" in terms of disciplines and classes. I do not believe it is realistic to expect any program just starting out of the blocks to be perfect. So, when looking at the program please keep firmly in mind that it is a STARTING POINT and things will be "tweaked" as necessary - all in the interest of making it a better program.

NO ONE is being ignored and no resistance from anyone is being received about adding any disciplines. The program IS being revised to include many people's suggestions, for example we forgot to include carriage driving and endurance driving under the categories of driving. Horse Trials, Novice, Training levels - ALL will be included. We have tightened up the wording so it does not read "all classes" but rather spells out the divisions a bit more. Larapintavian has been very helpful with her suggestions and I did send her an email to say they were being incorporated.

Pony Club IS included - in fact one of the committee members is very involved in the pony club and has been promoting it. That was a sheer oversight as it was initially meant to be included along with the 4-H clubs.

Endurance and Competitive Trail are definitely included and the Egyptian Event Endurance rides are eligible since they are sanctioned by AERC, which is the governing body for endurance.

All these revisions are taking time - we want to be careful and "do it right" so I ask for your patience. The revised draft is circulating as I speak and It is our hope that it will be available by the end of this week.

The reason flat and steeplechase racing was excluded is because they already have a system in place, both in monetary terms (purses) and in recognition (ie. the Darely Awards) to reward those who race. Please keep in mind that you have to be very, very careful NOT to step on another program's toes.

The reason the points are the same at all levels is for that very reason - to level the playing field. A competitive pony club member has just as much chance at winning a prize as a top dressage horse. Having said that, there are plans in the works to add more levels of recognition but remember this program has to start somewhere. All trees start out as small seedlings. We first need to set a foundation before we can build upon it. We are foundation building right now and the key is PARTICIPATION. Without it this program goes nowhere.

Everyone is welcome to email me directly or via this board with any questions or concerns. Please take the spaces out of the the below email (to protect me from spam):

d e b c h a r n u s k i @ h o t m a i l . c o m

I will do my best to get back to you promptly. I do travel quite extensively for work to remote places that do not have interent access (yes, they do exist) so sometimes it may take a few days before you receive a response. Rest assured, you are not being ignored, everyone on the committee wishes to make this program as much a success as hopefully all of you do.

Thanks for all your words of concern and support. You are being listened to.

Please continue to SPREAD the word. We ARE building momentum and I am optimistic that we indeed can meet our 100 person participation goal!

Cheers!

Deb Charnuski
Chairperson
The Pyramid Society's Performance Horse Award Program
Cheryl L
Deb,
While I have not been a PS member since 2000, I give you a HUGE pat on the back. This is a large undertaking and I wish you the best of luck. I for one am glad to see this program start. When I am ready, I will support it. With this program, maybe we can dispel some of the myths that Egyptians are too pretty for performance. So for now, I will just be an internet cheerleader.
Cheryl
larapintavian
[B][I]THANK YOU FOR THE UPDATE DEB !!

Everything is exciting to hear .... especially, for me, that the lower Eventing levels and Pony Club will be included. There are more and more PC kids mounted on Arabs each year.

Sharon
Anne-Louise
Hi Jacque and Sharon,

I understood the frustration in your posts, Sharon and have a far better appreciation for the work that goes into competing with an Event horse after reading them. I am truly impressed by all that you and your daughter have achieved with your horses!

Jacque, I will come be your groom if you do an Event course near us! That would be fun! I am not courageous enough to take on the cross country jumps, but I will for sure stand near the water hazard and cheer you on!

Anne-Louise

Was interrupted in the middle of typing this - didn't realise Deb had posted!

Deb, you are the best! Thank you for all your hard work!
DebC
Just a couple of quick other clarifications.

Hansi - Thanks for your comments. We do require you to name a horse BUT we do not limit the amount of horses you can enter. One, two, three........they are all welcome. I am envious that you are having trouble picking!

We decided to do it this way as we are recognizing the horse by rewarding its performance in the various disciplines. This way multiple riders can take a horse into competitions and events. If we did it the other way (by rider/owner) it would become too confusing to track effectively. You are right in your assumption that we looked to AHA's reward program in building the Performance Horse Award system. They track the points by the horse and this just made sense in order to keep record keeping simple.

We will try it for the first year and see what "tweaks" have to made in order for it to work.

Keep the suggestions coming. Many heads are better than a few!

Cheers!

Deb Charnuski
Chairperson
The Pyramid Society's Performance Horse Award Program
Echo1
Sharon and Jacque,
This is a 'jackpot' points race in performance. I believe the points are fair for everyone no matter what level of riding they are participating at. Which is what is really great about a jackpot race. I understand that Eventing is a very demanding sport, as is racing, as is rodeo as is endurance.

However, I think you are missing what the point and purpose of this new program is all about. We NEED more people to participate in performance. Not just a few here and there.
No matter what level of riding someone is at, they have an equal shot at winning the performance pyramid. It SHOULD NOT be skewed just for the upper levels of horsemanship by giving triple points for Eventing. Should we then give double points for working western classes? A 12 yr old who rides in walk trot classes could win this, if he/she wins points in that class or makes it to a championship class.

Personally, I hope to see many cross enter their horses in both western, english, and dressage classes, etc. It should be a points race if it is going to be a jackpot.

What has NOT been mentioned, which deserves to be impressed upon is it is FREE to join or only $50 for non members. I think this is the first time I've seen anyone step up and offer such an generous payback with just a low or non existant entry fee.

Clearly, this is a points race with a jackpot at the end. Therefore EVERYONE should be able to participate in whatever discipline they chose, and whatever riding ability they are at. It is not, and should not be who has the completed the most rigerous test with their horse.
Cheryl L
Kelly,
The price is right. I think the PS has done a wonderful thing, by leaving this "open" for the non-members. I can't wait until I am ready for this.
Cheryl
larapintavian
Kelly, you missed the point entirely.

We're not asking for triple points for eventing .... we're asking for the points EQUIVALENT to the same amount of regular classes.

ONE event division = THREE + regular SHOW classes

Do you understand what a triathalon is?

In Eventing, the Dressage, Show Jumping and Cross Country are NOT counted as separate classes, However, the Dressage is the same as a regular dressage test, the Show Jumping is the same as regular Jumping class and the Cross Country is the same as TWO or more regular jumping classes ..... but the Eventer must perform ALL of them, successfully without being eliminated in any one of them .... THREE disciplines, three+ times the work.

Maybe this comparison will help a bit:

SHOW CLASSES
Dressage class ..... gets points
+ Show jumping class .... gets points
+2 additional show jumping classes .... 2 more sets of points
Total .... points given for 4 classes

Event Division
Dressage class
+ Show Jumping class
+ Cross Country test (equivalent to 2 or more show jumping classes with SOLID fences on uneven terrain)
Total ....... points given for 1 class

Does the above make mathmatical sense?
We're simply asking for the points equivalent to the SAME AMOUNT OF WORK.

Making a simple analogy:
If a worker goes out and digs post holes for say, $1 a hole, and digs one hole for each of 4 different customers, he earns $4 dollars.

Customer 1 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 2 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 3 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 4 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Total ..................4 post holes dug for $4

Now, if a 5th customer hires that worker to dig 4 post holes all for himself what should he honestly pay?

This customer 5 gets 4 post holes dug and expects to pay the worker $1 for ALL of them (25 CENTS apiece)

Customer 5 reasons that he shouldn't pay any more than any one of the other customers even though his job took the same amount of work as the post holes dug for the other 4 customers COMBINED. He figures the worker should be paid the same fee by each customer even though he performed 4 times the work for customer #5.

As for your working western analogy, it doesn't "compute" as each WW class is an individual performance just like an individual Pleasure, or Dressage, or Jumping class. BUT ......what if an imaginary western triathalon were available ..... perhaps consisting of a reing class + a cutting class + a working cow class ..... would the COMBINATION of all three be worth the same as a reining class alone? a cutting class alone? or a working cow class ... alone? or would it be worth all three that it incorporated?

Moral: Dig post holes only 1 per customer ....you'll make more money that way AND don't ever compete your horse in triathalons,


I
HLM
Dear Deb

thank you for the explanation and I know you are trying so hard.

But I am abso9lutely "floored" by your statement that flat and steeple chase races are excluded, because they have their own program. What does that have to do with it? I dont think that many of us are entering to win money, I thought the idea was to get the Arabian out there competing, so that they are seen of what they can do.

so if a racer wins money, so what. We are going for points of accomplishment with this new program, not filling the bank accounts, because not everybody will even get a penny. It is THOSE STRESS PERFORMANCES, which are true to the Aabian horse, being natural "racers" and when their timing and stamina etc is tested and recorded.

If flat racing , any racing, is excluded, then please have us excluded. We can not join anything which discriminates. Our horses are tested for speed,stamina,courage and attitude, which will become so obvious in these steress race performances, and which you dont have in ring a round the rosies performances, such as pleasure classes.

three day eventing is also a grueling sport, which take high diszipline, strategy and a good horse under you with a sober mind,body and attitude.

Personally I think anything under saddle should be included so that people can decide what they eventually want to aquire/buy to perform in what ever they prefer.

Sharon is right, I dont think hardly anybody at the PS knows what they are talking about when it comes to under saddle work. It has been too long for them to even see a horse under saddle at the Ee competing. It also appears that they are not exactly in favor of having the arabians perform under saddle, otherwise they would have taken my suggestions seriously, having at least the halter stallions off age first go into a performance or evaluation class. so who is protecting who? Shall some large breeders with two legged horses and a pretty head always win?
Is it not those who help degenerating our breed and fetch disrespect for our breed?
Just wonder how many of their horses will enter the program.

As I said, we need to be fair to all and I understand that this new program took a lot of work, etc and changes can be made. At least you all are trying, and for this I thank you. May be one of our experts can help the next time in properly grading classes and forgetting none.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
QUOTE (larapintavian @ Oct 22 2007, 04:11 AM)
Kelly, you missed the point entirely.

We're not asking for triple points for eventing .... we're asking for the points EQUIVALENT to the same amount of regular classes. 

ONE event division = THREE + regular SHOW classes

Do you understand what a triathalon is?

In Eventing, the Dressage, Show Jumping and Cross Country are NOT counted as separate classes,  However, the Dressage is the same as a regular dressage test, the Show Jumping is the same as regular Jumping class and the Cross Country is the same as TWO or more regular jumping classes ..... but the Eventer must perform ALL of them, successfully without being eliminated in any one of them .... THREE disciplines, three+ times the work.

Maybe this comparison will help a bit:

SHOW CLASSES
  Dressage class ..... gets points
+ Show jumping class .... gets points
+2 additional show jumping classes .... 2 more sets of points
Total .... points given for 4 classes

Event Division
  Dressage class 
+ Show Jumping class
+ Cross Country test (equivalent to 2 or more show jumping classes with SOLID fences on uneven terrain)
Total ....... points given for 1 class

Does the above make mathmatical sense?
We're simply asking for the points equivalent to the SAME AMOUNT OF WORK. 

Making a simple analogy:
If a worker goes out and digs post holes for say, $1 a hole, and digs one hole for each of 4 different customers, he earns $4 dollars.

Customer 1 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 2 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 3 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Customer 4 gets 1 post hole dug for $1
Total ..................4 post holes dug for $4

Now, if a 5th customer hires that worker to dig 4 post holes all for himself what should he honestly pay?

This customer 5 gets 4 post holes dug and expects to pay the worker $1 for ALL of them  (25 CENTS apiece)

Customer 5 reasons that he shouldn't pay any more than any one of the other customers even though his job took the same amount of work as the post holes dug for the other 4 customers COMBINED.  He figures the worker should be paid the same fee by each customer even though he performed  4 times the work for customer #5.

As for your working western analogy, it doesn't "compute" as each WW class is an individual performance just like an individual  Pleasure, or Dressage, or Jumping class.  BUT ......what if an imaginary western triathalon were available ..... perhaps consisting of a reing class + a cutting class + a working cow class ..... would the COMBINATION of all three be worth the same as a reining class alone?  a cutting class alone? or a working cow class ... alone? or would it be worth all three that it incorporated?

Moral:  Dig post holes only 1 per customer ....you'll make more money that way AND don't ever compete your horse in triathalons,
I
*


No, I still think you are missing the point. No pun intended. It is a points race. It is a jackpot. It's designed for pleasure classes.


IT IS NOT an TEST OF WHICH RIDER HAS THE MOST TRAINING or DEATH DEFYING FEATS TO ACCOMPLISH< OR HIGHEST DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY> It is for ALL ages.

It was my understanding this was more geered toward "pleasure classes" where more could participate, youth and jack benny classes and all. But if you want to make it into the pre-olympic trials, or the oceans of fire race then stop to think how many you are excluding in this, where only a handful compete in that sort of thing. I think those sort of classes should stand on their own(Eventing, rodeo, flat racing) It was the pleasure riders who were looking for a performance section.
I've ridden cross country, jumpers, dressage, raced horses and also competed in rodeos, I do understand the level of training and committement it takes to compete at these levels.

Eventing isn't at the Egyptian Event, nor is flat racing, nor is rodeo.

Not that any of those sports aren't important or a true test of horses and riders, but it simply is not what I would consider 'pleasure' classes, which is what I thought the performance pyramid was trying to support to see more people yound and old, different levels of ability, those who ride regularly and those who work full time and just ride on weekends, etc. , get out and ride and compete and have fun without risking life and limb to prove themselves or their horses.
I've seen many horses get seriously injured in these types classes and many riders get seriously injured in these type classes too, it's not the type of thing that I think TPS needs to put up a purse toward, which when there is money involved it will get more beginners hurt than it is worth. It should remain for pleasure.

Maybe if this goes well and we support this and start here, which is better than where we were before in no-where-land, we could later add these types of classes to the Event and to the performance pyramid.

I sincerely hope to see ALL performance folks support this, and speak well about it and encourage others to participate. We must consider the Straight Egyptian Horses overall, and keep in mind that this will also give incentive to sales of horses who are in performance where the market is not so hot right now, and it could also spark many other good things in the future.
But for one to two to try and shoot this down before it even gets started would be doing everyone a great disservice.
HLM
Dear Debbi

I thank you so much for being so considered. I am trying to understand..

But please, look through my eyes, my heart. For almost two decades our smaller breeder WITH THE BEST SES I HAVE SEEN, have their programs/horses been raped,shunned, shortchanged, talked down and purposely forgotten,neglected.
they were never given a chance tyo get to the EE, they had to make a choice between those expenses, feeding thei r family and horses. I did not notice any of our LARGE BREEDERS, some of wich still dont know from which end a horse eats, ever offering a helping hand. They made the smaller breeders pay the price so that the biggies got the reward. Real fair game, eh? Like taking candy from a baby!! And now you created a wonderful program and already I see dark clouds in the sky.

What I saw at the Ak,Convention blew my mind. wished I had also seen Linzner's horses, but was lucky enough to take the bull by the horn and fly out there, my doctors still mad at me takling the monitor off ,the airline might have thought I am wired for something, eh. But I had to get there, meet these incredible western breeders, see their horses, meet those I never have and .Thank Godf did..

May of these people are NOT RICH, nor were many of those being at the convention. But those are the tru-blue horse people with the finest forseflesh, ready to take THE BULL BY THE HORN, against anything.,and I have seen it, evaluated it and I feel that hundreds of these remarkable resistant wonderful breeders/owners ,and against all ods, are people all over the USA. that's our artery, our survival ,our backbone, that's what Glennloch,Plumgrove,Trap, Plum Nearly Ranch, Pritzlaff, .Babson, Davenport,Doyle etc.etc. CONTRBUTED and prayed to have it survice, Sacrificed with he sincere hope to carry on. When people took over, ruthless, selfish, greedy, power crazy actually very insicure as I see it, and bombarded this world with useless garden ornaments, shunning our true breeders who could not afford to keep pace, everything inside of me just turned sick and still does.I only wish you knew what I do..

Had I been allowed, or Sharon and other experts to be on the facilitations of this program we would have suggested" ALL UNDER SADDLE CLASSES, GRADED BY DIFFICULTIES, ETC.But then we were never asked, as many of us oldtimers are never asked on anything, we are overuled, already half in a coffin. Well I have news for them, I was taught that there is only only thing impossible LIVING FOREVER, and I AM WORKING ON THAT ONE!!!!!


iT IS NOT TOO LOTE TO REVISE!!. If you do, you have my assurance that I will try to get anybody I know involved.. But I wont do it when I feel or see discrimination,injustice,politics or the likes.

Again thank you so much for at least listening. you have the knowledge the mind and the fairness at heart to do something, anything, for all of us. We cant stop having the world go round, but we can stopping it going backwards.

Truly warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian farms
HLM
DEar Robert

You make a llot of sense. But Racing was at the EE at once time, meaning showing what it takes. Unfortunately those experts who raced for yreasrs, were not allowed to speak, and a horsewoman I respect was chosen, who had little knowlege of the real thing. That was politics again!

Yes, indeed half of any production can not do the extreme, but can do well in pleasure classes etc, and will enjoy it. This is why points should be given for what ever difficult performance is involved. True horsemen/woman would know how to evaluate the points.

But forget about the winning, the points, just lets get the people into the saddle and comepte in anything.they soon will find out what they got underr their seat, so will the rest of the world. Cant wait to see your lovely imported stallion next year under saddle competing in something, like a novice class of something.

I gathered from the entire program to induce our wonderful breeders/owners of respect to join, so something, anything, so that we all can see their lovely SE under saddle. That we all can again bring forth the true champions, those who will not be influenced by politics, as it cant be in racing,eventing,cutting, raining, etc.etc. or at least to a very small degree of politics which we can quickly outroot.

And dont forget, a General can only be one if he has the armee. Well do our generals have the Armee??? I dont think so, the armee consists of 98percent of all our people. Now is this not wonderful?
AND WE ARE READY TO RIDE, so heaven help the garden ornaments!!!

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabnian Farms
Georgia
QUOTE (Cheryl L @ Oct 22 2007, 02:42 AM)
Kelly,
The price is right. I think the PS has done a wonderful thing, by leaving this "open" for the non-members. I can't wait until I am ready for this.
Cheryl
*


Cheryl,
Things are swimming around in my head about the driving points..
I used to train Standardbred race horses, why not Arabians.. oh if I only had that harness em up and drive em down the road attitude I used to have. But, I am swimming the thoughts around my head..you can do that to with Shamal. I may just take one of my harnesses over and throw it on Toots!

So, my point is..if I'm thinking about it there will be more come out of the woodwork. I'm sure of it. You put it together they will come.

This is good news, still in the making, but good news to boot. I for one am very happy to hear of this and being open for all. The greatest.

Georgia
Cheryl L
I have been thinking too Georgia. Shamal long lines and I have a cart AND a harness. I just need to get the mindset and energy. I am still thinking about sending him to Mike. Trying to work my finances. Putting away every extra dollar in my "secret stache". That way when spring comes, he is ready, I don't have to do anything. He will be beautifully conditioned. I can hook up and drive. Hmmmmm! The thoughts abound.
Still won't be ready for the Performance Program. I WILL do it for 2009 though.
Cheryl
Echo1
QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 22 2007, 09:28 PM)
DEar Robert

You make a llot of sense. But Racing was at the EE at once time, meaning showing what it takes. Unfortunately those experts who raced for yreasrs, were not allowed to speak, and a horsewoman I respect was chosen, who had little knowlege of the real thing. That was politics again!

Yes, indeed half of any production can not do the extreme, but can do well in pleasure classes etc, and will enjoy it. This is why points should be given for what ever difficult performance is involved. True horsemen/woman would know how to evaluate the points.

But forget about the winning, the points, just lets get the people into the saddle and comepte in anything.they soon will find out what they got underr their seat, so will the rest of the world. Cant wait to see your lovely imported stallion next year under saddle competing in something, like a novice class of something.

I gathered from the entire program to induce our wonderful breeders/owners of respect to join, so something, anything, so that we all can see their lovely SE under saddle. That we all can again bring forth the true champions, those who will not be influenced by politics, as it cant be in racing,eventing,cutting, raining, etc.etc. or at least to a very small degree of politics which we can quickly outroot.

And dont forget, a General can only be one if he has the armee. Well do our generals have the Armee??? I dont think so, the armee consists of 98percent of all our people. Now is this not wonderful?
AND WE ARE READY TO RIDE, so heaven help the garden ornaments!!!

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabnian Farms
*



Hi Hansi,
I did ask about bringing racing back to the Event, there is still a track, but there is no starting gate and we couldn't get one. But it would be awesome to see a few races .... one for fillies and one for colts. It would be a joy to see this come back at some time.

Please try to understand my point, which is the performance pyramid is a great start. If it goes well, who's to say that TPS won't add to the Event and performance pyramid?

But all in all, I really feel that we have to start with the pleasure classes and get more of those weekend riders out and showing and competing where the Straight Egyptian can be seen. Those who are small breeders, have just a few horses, and those who have so much to offer to this community.

And yes, absolutely will ALL of our stallions compete under saddle in competition. smile.gif That's a promise. This year we plan to use one of our Pritzlaff stallions in performance.

Kelly smile.gif
JacqueB
Echo1,
Here's where I think you & I agree.
We want this performance program to be for non-professional riders.
We want this to promote the use of our horses and stimulate a market for our non-breeding horses.
We want this program to be a success.
Here's a scenario to consider. An amateur rider takes their horse to an Arab weekend show and shows in maybe 3 different pleasure classes over 2-3 days and does well enough to get points for each class they enter. I finally get brave enough with a SE Arab I've been bringing along and we do a beginner novice horse trial (training level dressage test, 2'9" fences). Saturday morning a dressage test, that afternoon, stadium jumping. And on Sunday we do the cross country course. We end up doing well also. Should I only get the points from doing one class or 3 classes. I'm definitely an amateur rider. I may feel like I'm risking my life biggrin.gif , but beginner novice is an entry level competition in eventing and where there are lots of riders - potential buyers for the gelding I bred and competed with at the age of 5.
It's not that horse trial riders/combined training riders want special recognition for doing cross country jumping, maybe that amateur rider that attended the Arab show did 2 hunter classes with higher than 2'9" jumps and an equitation class. But they are going to get points for 3 classes. The combined training/horse trial rider shouldn't be penalized just because the nature of their sport inherently is 3 different classes of activities.
As to your comment "I've seen many horses get seriously injured in these types classes and many riders get seriously injured in these type classes too, it's not the type of thing that I think TPS needs to put up a purse toward" - currently that is the only category they are putting their money toward if they are only to recognize 3 day eventing at the Prelim - advanced level. I have confidence they will change that to the USEA recognized activities which includes the entry levels of the horse trial where most of the combined training riders participate.
Thanks Deb for all your endeavors and with all organizations there's always lots of yammering - thanks for doing something and you obviously can count on us to keep you informed of issues dear to us biggrin.gif
Jacque
larapintavian
Warning .... VERY long.

[quote=Echo1, October 22 2007, 08:18 PM]
............It is a points race. It is a jackpot. It's designed for pleasure classes. [/quote]


***None of the "off rail" classes are classified as pleasure classes. Guess that means you don't think that Working Cow, Trail, Cutting, Reining, Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, Carriage Reinsmanship, Carriage Obstacle Driving, Competitive Trail, Endurance or even Park should be included .... are all the people who participate with their "E" horses in these disciplines ALSO to be left out just because they are not doing EP, WP, or the horribly distorted HP classes? Do you tell Larry Westmoreland (Sp?) that his horses should not be entered just because they are performing, rather spectacularly, in a demanding discipline? What about the Munson girl and her SE from Arkansas that just won the 2007 AHA SHN Nat. Ch. Ammy Jumper (she qualified for SHN competing on the OPEN USEF circuit against the Tbs and Wbs), or the two previous SEs who have won the same championship and also competed against other breeds? Should they also be 'excluded'?

You also say "....IT IS A POINTS RACE" These are your words ... certainly not mine. Ive already stated that we don't have the funds to compete often enough to be chasing points, nor will I put my horse's welfare at risk to do so as we would have to haul all over the country because there is currently no RATED Eventing competition in our state.***

[quote=Echo1, Oct 22 2007, 08:18 PM] ...... IT IS NOT an TEST OF WHICH RIDER HAS THE MOST TRAINING or DEATH DEFYING FEATS TO ACCOMPLISH< OR HIGHEST DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY> It is for ALL ages.

It was my understanding this was more geered toward "pleasure classes" where more could participate, [youth and jack benny classes and all...........[/quote]


****OK ... YOU tell all the Sr. Citizens who are out there EVENTING in the lower levels that they are TOO OLD. Beginner Novice and Novice divisions have a significant percentage of riders OVER FIFTY ..... several of them 65+. Many others have ridden for only a few years ... a fair number of the schooling "Green as Grass" and the USEA Rated Beginner Novice competitors are both AGED AND BEGINNERS in the saddle. Compitition is skill based, not age based (only age divsion are Jr/YR and Adult).

They don't consider themselves as attempting, as you so colorfully put it "....death defying feats ....." tongue.gif Not at THOSE levels. Most of those riders NEVER INTEND to ride the upper levels ... they're out there thoroughly enjoying themselves riding fences that are well within the requirements of ANY AHA Ammy Hunter or Jumper class.. The only difference is the Cross Country ... which is not in a groomed arena and has twice as many fencesas show jumping courses. It does include water right from the beginning .... but, at this level, nothing that the average Competitive Trail or pleasure trail trail rider doesn't regularly negotiate. Heck, even the banks and drops for Beginner Novice and Novice are the same as pleasure trail riders negotiate every day.

I suppose YOU should also be the one to tell all those Pony Clubbers .... the ones under 18 ... that they are too young to be schooling and riding the lower levels too. Truth is, there are a HUGE number of 14 - 18 yr olds ALREADY at Prelim and doing very well, thank you (14 is the minimum age for Prelim).

Pony Clubbers, all ages, and many DIFFERENT SKILL LEVELS regularly have Cross Country schooling days right along with their Dressage and Jumper training.

These pics are at a PC Cross Country schooling lesson in February '06 (very fuzzy horses). The level is "Green as Grass" (or some places call it "Amoeba Level"). That means, in a schooling Horse Trial, they would do Walk -Trot Intro Dressage + Cross Rail Stadium Jumping + Trotting Cross Country with "step-over fences" ... logs on the ground, tiny ditches, etc. It is truely geared for beginners, not yet ready for rated competitions. Many beginning adults like to school WITH the beginning kids ... they say the kids give them confidence that they too can succeed..... and they do.

The "horse" is a small POA Pony, 16 yrs old. The rider is Casey Bell, who was all of 6 1/2 years old at the time.
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Here little Casey and Cinnamon give an 11-yr-old riding a Saddlebred a "lead" into the water.
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And you think this is "death defying" ... that any pleasure trail rider is incapable of STARTING at this level?? THey would have far more difficulty with the intro Dressage phase than the intro Cross Country.

Little Casey does not yet compete only because she is too young to remember the long cross country course ... she already has ribbons in cross rail and 2' hunters. She's capable of remembering the dressage test and the stadium jumping course .... just not the lenthy XC .... yet. But that doesn't stop her from schooling XC so she'l be ready when she is old enough to remember it all.

These next pics are of 12 year old rider Ashlee Bell WINNING the OPEN Novice level at the USEA rated Jubilee H.T. in May '06. She's riding an Anglo-Arab.
Dressage Test:
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Cross Country Phase:
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Stadium Jumping:
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In this NOVICE level, the Dressage is training level, Stadium and Cross Country fences are MAXIMUM of 2'11" ...... completely in line with AHA Ammy/Jr. rider Hunter specs and lower than Ammy Jumpers max height which is 3'3". You seem to be implying that people who show AHA Ammy or Jr. Hunters or Jumpers are incapable of Eventing at NOVICE LEVEL ????? That this level takes some sort of fire-breathing dragon for a horse or "stupid-bold" seat of the pants rider??? If that were the case, none of the levels (Beg. Nov. thru Adv.) would be REQUIRED to perform the Dressage phase first or the Stadium Jumping after XC. (We just want them to get the credit for doing all three phases/classes.)

Kelly ..... READ THE SPECS IN THE CHART ..... COMPARE THEM TO THE SPECS IN THE AHA DRESSAGE AND HUNTER/JUMPER CLASSES (you'll find them in your AHA Handbook ... I'll be happy to look up the page numbers for you).

The lower levels are where the vast majority of both schooling and rated competition takes place, but you would discourage both our riders and our horses from even attempting this sport (or, apparently, anything other than the pleasure classes) that so many others enjoy immensely. You would have them believe that even if they have ridden only a short time that they cannot accomplish what so very many other beginning riders do on a regular basis.

The largest segment of Event competitors in the Beginner Novice and Novice levels are 45 -65 yr old women (many of them having started riding AFTER age 30) and young juniors. Go to the USEA and actually check their data .... then tell me I'm wrong. It's mainly these older riders and people with families and full time jobs who don't have the time to train for the upper levels, who make up the solid base of Eventing .... 93% of alll the riders!

Eventing the USEA Training Level (see the previously posted pics of purebred CL Emmersom and those below of two additional horses) ALSO has stadium fences within the specs for AHA Jumpers (Ammy 3'3", Open 3'6") but the complexity of the course is more demanding ... INOW the greater number of fences and number and types of combinations required. The XC, at this level, also becomes considerably more demanding with a longer course ridden at faster speed, incuding more types of terrain, higher drops into the water and off banks, and introducing generally more complicated fences and combinations.

Training level is where MOST older riders stop..... BEFORE it get's too challenging for the AVERAGE horse with a conciencious rider. A few of them do have Prelim as their goal, and I personally know of two 65+ year olds who are ammys who started riding at age 50 who DID accomplish that goal ... then they dropped back to Novice and Training and say they will continue to compete these lower levels until they can no longer climb into the saddle.

Last pics: Typical adult Ammmy rider Pat Franz, a 45 yr old lawyer who started riding (for the first time) at age 36, showing her own pinto "Double Wide" (a Clydesdale/Paint cross) at Training Level and doing a training level clinic with USET coach Capt. Mark Phillips, riding my Arab/Saddlebred, "Demonn's Be Gone" (an *Ansata Ibn Halima++ grandson).
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Pat does not intend to EVER compete above training level. The demands of her job, etc. do not allow her enough time to prepare. She is now having a great deal of fun training PONIES for the lower levels. (Pat is less than 5'2"). Yep, the ponies (14.2 and under) and small horses (14.2 - 15.3) are becoming VERY popular as Eventers, especially for riders of small stature who are sick of hauling around some giant......and more than ever now that Karen O'Connor won the Pan Am Games AND finished 3rd at the Rolex Kentucky CCI**** (one of the 4 most difficult Advanced competitions in the world) on the 14.2 pony "Teddy" (who is 1/8 Arab).

As Jacque said, there are BUYERS out there for our smaller (by the greater horse world standards) horses, and ESPECIALLY the the basically trained geldings .... GELDINGS are the horse of CHOICE for all levels of Eventing and many other horse sports. Why on earth do you want to frighten people and keep them from trying or from getting our "E" bred horses out where their potential can be spotted by those who can actually recognize that potential in a beginning horse ???


[quote=Echo1, October 22 2007, 08:18 PM] ......to see more people yound and old, different levels of ability, those who ride regularly and those who work full time and just ride on weekends, etc. , get out and ride and compete and have fun without risking life and limb to prove themselves or their horses.[/unquote]

That is EXACTLY what these lower level Eventers are .... ".....young and old, different levels of ability, those who ride regularly and those who work full time and just ride on weekends, etc., get out and ride and compete and have fun without risking life and limb to prove themselves or their horses" They do it every weekend in all parts of the U.S. and Canada. Some states have MULTIPLE USEA/USEF rated competitions each year, others have only 1 or 2, and some like our state have only schooling competitions available .... so, our riders regularly cross state lines to find RATED competitions ..... just not as often anymore with gasoline prices what they are, lol.

[quote=Echo1, October 22 2007, 08:18 PM]] ......it will get more beginners hurt than it is worth......[/quote]

blink.gif Are you at all AWARE that people do not even school a rated course unless they are accompanied by a coach?? At least give our RIDERS credit for a little bit of COMMON SENSE! Why must you constantly question the intelligence of event riders when you don't bother to even check out USEA specifications against existing AHA class specs ????


[quote=Echo1, October 22 2007, 08:18 PM]]....We must consider the Straight Egyptian Horses overall, and keep in mind that this will also give incentive to sales of horses who are in performance where the market is not so hot right now, and it could also spark many other good things in the future.[/unquote]

Both Jacque and I have repeatedly mentioned the MARKET in sporting horses for GELDINGS specifically. At the average Event ... any level .... the ratio is 80% geldings, 20% mares. Stallions are so very rare that they are not even counted (most of the stallions are young Warmbloods who show only at Novice level to get their required performance points for licensing ... then retire to stud). But you don't get these geldings sold without taking them out where, as I mentioned above, their potential (which is best evaluated in low level competition) can be spotted by the movers and shakers in the sport.

A pic from 20 yrs ago: Chrissi at age 13 -14 Eventing the purebred mare Lepreconn (an *Ansata Ibn Halima granddaughter) who was only 14.2 hh. "Connie" was also Chris's first Pony Club mount.Pictured first at Novice Level (her very first Event) and a year later at Training Level.
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Lepreconn had previously been my Competitive Trail mare.
Echo1
Dear Sharon,

While I do completely understand the demands of eventing and other equestrian sports such as racing and rodeo horses etc, what I do not agree to and apparenly nor do you (because of the points dispute) is the level of riding and training required between pleasure classes and eventing. Thererfore I do no feel that eventing and regular pleasure riders should be lumped into the same category. We both agree to this, otherwise you would not be asking for triple points for one event.

It would be more fair to have either a split division, or if you want to include at triple point for all three phases of eventing, that is fine, but keep in mind, you and I both know that there is NO other association who allows both to compete for the same points race or in the same jackpot series. Apparently Deb decided to include eventing along with the pleasure divisons, but that is her decision, and I appreciate her taking the forefront and actually putting forth the effort to do somethng positive however, it is and always has been considered seperate divisions. Flat racing is another entire seperate category of horsemanship, not that it is not a very worthy form of competition, but how can you compare this to western pleasure? You and I both know that although the youth do compete in pony club, and eventing, there is a difference between a class in an arena on a rail and a cross country course where there is more of a risk to horse and rider.

So if the Eventer wants to squeeze out the chances for the youth to be considered equally competitive in the performance pyramid, so be it. If you want to show up the 12 year old boys and girls with their horses at your age, have at it. But it is not what I wish to see.

Whatever The Pyramid Society should decide, I will support and I will participate in. Fair or not, equal or not, my desire is to support the Straight Egyptian Horse, The Pyramid Society, and the families who truly do support this breed.

Kelly
Marilee
Excellent response. Any (Egyptian) Arabian out there doing anything in performance should be included and recognized, whether out there in one discipline, or able to cross over into multi-disciplines. Great discussion. It takes guts, stamina, courage, good health, careful training and conditioning,and respect for your horse to get there over time.
Marilee
My "excellent response" was for post #39.

I do not see one horse, one rider any less or more risk than a whole arena full of horses and riders.

I think we all should empower anyone who has a horse the most equal opportunity we can. If not, then keep going out there in OPEN, and do your best. One would think that anyone who loves Egyptians or Arabians would be supportive of that. Racing and other disciplines at the Egyptian Event could be done in a TBA way. Offer the classes or events, then pre-enter or get sponsors for the classes to pay for ribbons and costs and it's a done deal. If it's a money maker for the EE-great, otherwise it will break even and maybe be offered in the future.
larapintavian
Yes I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, Kelly, but there are a few things that I cannot see where you're coming from.

QUOTE (Echo1 @ Oct 24 2007, 02:10 AM)
.........You and I both know that although the youth do compete in pony club, and eventing, there is a difference between a class in an arena on a rail and a cross country course where there is more of a risk to horse and rider.......


The very worst accidents I've seen with kids and horses involved crowded show pleasure classes .... too many inexperienced riders in the same arena at the same time. Even AHA Youth Nationals had problems with "crashes" in EP preliminary classes in '06 ... too many kids who did not know how to steer off the rail or negotiate "traffic", perched on high energy horses. Not only did they cause crashes, they also ruined the rides of several very accomplished competitors who had to get out of their way.

Show warm-up rings are even more dangerous with all levels of riders going all sorts of directions and even people lunging horses where riders are trying to school, and NO ONE maintaining any semblance of order or with any authority. It's a giant free for all and serious accidents and close calls DO occur regularly.

Eventing is much more strictly regulated. In every phase of Eventing competition, riders go individually. They do not cause a danger to OTHER competitors. They can be eliminated for perceived 'dangerous riding' in any phase, and that elimination removes them from the entire competition, not just the phase involved. Even though there may be 3 horses on XC at the same time, they are started at 3 minute intervals and are widely separated. If one has a spill, ALL riders are stopped wherever they are, and are restarted only after the unfortunate rider has remounted and/or retired from the course.

Even the warm-up rings are closely monitored in Eventing. There are separate warm-up rings for each phase, and an empowered steward ON DUTY at each one. Only a few are allowed to warm up jumping at a time, Each warm-up fence for Eventing jumping or XC is marked with a red flag on the right .... any rider jumping a wam-up fence in the wrong direction (without the 'red on right") is AUTOMATICALLY ELIMINATED from the competition by the warm-up steward ..... it's much safer and different from jumping in regular shows where the warm-up is NOT monitored, and large numbers of riders may be jumping the fences any direction they want to.

At Arab shows, pleasure riders often are allowed in the jumping warm-up and obliviously ride right into the path of those going over fences, because there are NO rules and NO ONE is empowered in a supervisory capacity. At this years AHA SHN, Dressage riders were even allowed to warm up in the SAME ring as the Working Hunters ..... talk about dangerous and unfair to both sets of riders ..... sheesh!

There is actually a lower accident ratio to competitor numbers in Eventing ... and they all involve only ONE horse/rider pair, not several horses and riders. They are kind of like aircraft accidents ... even though there are fewer of them, the media hounds concentrate on them and IGNORE all those who consistently safely compete. Pony Club has an exceptional safety record ... any accident occurring at any club function nation wide, is filed with a complete report to the national headquarters .... even getting a foot stepped on or a finger twisted. Surprisingly, accidents over fences are the LEAST common. The USEA also maintains complete accident reports for EVERY rated competition and many schooling competitions as well. Any accident over fences is thoroughly investigated, including the footing, course design, course maintenence, rider qualification,etc..

Do AHA show committees have to document any accidents that occur on their show grounds .... do they even know about the 'minor' ones?

QUOTE
...... So if the Eventer wants to squeeze out the chances for the youth to be considered equally competitive in the performance pyramid, so be it. If you want to show up the 12 year old boys and girls with their horses at your age, have at it.


You TOTALLY lost me on this one! Eventing kids compete in JUNIOR divisions, just like any other show kids. It's the ADULTS who are NOT split into all those tiny ADULT age groups. Sr citizens compete in the same classes as 21 year olds. Both the Junior and Adult divisions are by skill level. There are only a few rare Events where Jr.s and adults compete against each other .... like the Novice division that 12 yr old Ashlee WON over the adults .... oh, the second place rider was also 12.

From what you said above, it would appear that experienced Adult competitors (or, for that matter highly experienced Juniors) in the Pleasure classes could also easily "show up" beginning 10 or 12 year olds .......or beginning 21, 45, or 60 year olds! So .... do you eliminate the well schooled, experienced, WP, EP, and HP riders too? Regardless of age? There are also MANY adult pleasure class riders who are intimidated by the quality performance of the junior riders and actually afraid to ride against them.

Anyway, I'm a great grandmother, lol, a distance rider in my earlier days because I actually get dizzy going in circles in a ring blink.gif (after a few rounds at the canter I don't even know where the gate is)! I do fine on trail where there are no circles. Those kids could outdo me ANY day as little Casey proves regularly! It's my daughter and grand daughters who do the Eventing .... but that's not going to stop me from trying, or, I just might start distance riding again .... CTR would work pretty well again, but you don't seem to want CTR riders to be part of PS program either.

Oh, one more note from 'history': On the 1981 IAHA National Championship Competitive Trail Ride (CTR) I managed to finish 12th on Lepreconn (pictured at the bottom of my last post)..... Chrissi, who was only 8 years old finished 6th, NATIONAL TOP TEN .... there were several adult competitors who took issue with the fact that THREE junior riders (the other two were 11 and 16) were in the top ten that year out of 52 competitors ....... now, what's that about the kids being outdone? BTW, the 16 year old was Tom Reid, son of Floyd and Margaret Reid and he was riding the heavily E-bred gelding Zeeer. Chrissi was riding a tiny Fay El Dine granddaughter, and some of the adults complained that the little mare wasn't carrying enough weight over the 2-day 74 mile competition because her rider was only 8 .... the mare was not quite 14 hh and very slim build ... the judges said she was carrying weight proportionate to her size and being so small, she had to take more steps to cover the distance than the larger horses.
Cheryl L
Hi everyone,
I was wondering the The Pyramid Society, has received the required amount of entries, to get the program going?
Cheryl
Minaret
Anybody?

Will the Pyramid Society offer it for 2009 if it doesn't reach the minimum subscription level for 2008?

It would be criminal for this not to get off the ground in some form...

(Cheryl, suggest Native Costume Driving, here's our chance!)
Cheryl L
QUOTE (Minaret @ Nov 11 2007, 07:37 PM)
Anybody?

Will the Pyramid Society offer it for 2009 if it doesn't reach the minimum subscription level for 2008? 

It would be criminal for this not to get off the ground in some form...

(Cheryl, suggest Native Costume Driving, here's our chance!)
*


Celene,
Can you just imagine? I have the perfect horse for it.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif wink.gif
DebC
I will be making an announcement shortly. The directors just met this past weekend (Nov. 10/11) so I had to wait. Stay tuned.....

Deb Charnuski
Chairperson
The Pyramid Society Performance Horse Award Program
Liz Salmon
I know of many horses who have been registered in this—some of whom have not yet been trained under saddle !! I do hope it's a success. We have registered Shai Halimaar SA.
Cheryl L
Hi everyone,
I just read on the Pyramid Society website, that registration deadline has been extended until December 31, 2007.
So if you had wanted to sign up and thought you were to late.............you have another chance.
Cheryl
DebC
You are absolutely correct Cheryl - the deadline has been extended to December 31, 2007 in order to permit as many as possible to enroll in the program.

The GOOD NEWS is that we HAVE received well over the number of registrations for the program that were required to kick start it so IT IS A GO FOR 2008! Everyone who signed up will be getting a communication in January welcoming them aboard!

To say that I am pleased that this is going forward is an understatement. I am positively thrilled and look forward to supporting those who have entered their SE's and Egpytian Related/Sired into the program. The Committee has ambitious plans to improve and grow this program over time.

More exciting news about the Performance Horse Program in the New Year.

Cheers!

Deb Charnuski
Pyramid Society Peformance Horse Award Program
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