So i've been thinking of starting a club for Abbeyan tail female horse owners/lovers I believe FHL (Charity) was the first one to implant the idea into my head. With the general strain being so rare I thik its a good idea for us all to keep intouch. Not to mention we could make it an excellant source of info and I was thinking along the lines of a "data source" for Abbeyans sort of like I'm making for the Abbeyan Sharraks.
(*Update on the list: I thuoght everyone might be intrested to know that my list of living purebred tail female abbeyan sharraks is growing by the day. There are now about 50 horses on the list and around twenty that I am needing to gather info on/waiting for info on and add. Intrestingly it seems that many tail female horses of this strain are bay or black!)
So basically what I'm looking for is ideas how to start. People who would be willing to help me etc. I'd be happy to add a page/pages to my web site with info and list of owners/members etc.

I would be interested to know how many of these 50 trace to Queen of Sheba. Do you have that info?
I have Abbeyans too, but they are not Sharrak, they are Om Jurays.
Cathy

None of these horses trace in tail female to Queen of Sheba so far. All to Abeyah and of those the vast majority traces though Haffia to Abeyah.
I believe there was one who did not trace though Haffia. I'll have to go back and check to see which.
It is intresting to note that all of these horses are from just a few differnt families. Also they all have quite diverse breeding. I've found egyptian related, CMk, and even some Bask/Varian breeding. Their common thread is the CMK dam line.
I'm sure there are descendants of Qeeun of Sheba out there. I've been looking for an SE descendant. (She is/was the only Abbeyan Sharrak dam line within SE breeding) I have been told that in 1997 there were only four left. Two stallions and two mares. I hope desperatly that there is an SE mare out there tracing to Queen of Sheba and I hope that I can find her. If she is out there she's likely to be the last of her strain with in SE breeding.
Gabe

I don't believe there are any SEs left, but I was hoping there at least were a few others.
Cathy

I susopse one must hope beyond hope that someone out there has a mare in their back yard that they dont have any idea how special she is. I'll hope until I know for sure anyway.
I hope there is at least a remant of her tail female line in some breeding group.
I'll let you know if I find one though.

I am working on a tail female line, for this moment, in the United States since I do not have access to overseas stud books, for the Abayyan strain. However, I still have a lot more research to do, combing thru websites and Datasource to list all the individuals (and I have not been listing stallions, unless someone believes that should be done that are not well-known) AND I have to find a suitable pedigree database for the Internet.

I was planning on placing this on Pharoah's Horses website. Any objections?

Oh my you are going to be so pleased!
I just decided to do a quick search and look what I came up with!!!!!!
SHARDELL DESERT PRINCESS born in 2000! She is a PURE IN STRAIN ABBEYAN SHARRAK! Tracing in BOTH sire and dam tail female to Queen of Sheba!
Can Somebody PLEASE check data source for me and see who her reg owner and breeder is!
I also found a cupple more tail female tracing to QOS that should still be alive today! YAY
More to add to the list!
Gabe

I've been listing stallions.
Are you listing Sharraks too? I think possibly we should compare notes. I havent listed and Um Jeyrus and if I were to start this club they should be listed as well.

I checked DataSource but couldn't get anything to come up with that spelling. Sire and Dam? Or a more accurate spelling and I will check it.
Pam

I have all of the Om Jurays horses up till 2000 but not complete after that.
Cathy

Hi Gabe,

Google shows her pedigree, it is a different Queen of Sheba
details

pedigree of the mare you found
in Australia

Christine

There are also the Abbeyah Hurmahs, tracing to Turfa..........
Cathy

Well, I have that one abeyyan stallion now, but I'm plum out of ideas for a club.

I couldn't find any present-day SE female descendants of Queen of Sheba.

Cathy - you'd BETTER be smiling!

Best,
Ray

Now, Raymond !! Were you trying to catch me up in slipshod research ????
Do you know, I really wish you had.......and, yes, I am.
Cathy

I love this strain. Count me in.

Cathy,
Just curious...you have apparently accepted the Raswan information on *Turfa's strain in preference to the British Arab Horse Society and US Registry info which showed her as Kuhaylan. Just hoping you'll share your reasoning.

Anita

Cathy

I am curious too. I have Turfa as a Kuhaylah'ajouz (Khorma).

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farsm

For the Abbeyan people-What sub-strain of Abbeyan is this mare Ali Kateefa-tracing back to OBEYA EGYPT*289 thru Her dam * Higran out of Hodhoda? In all the reasearch I have looked at it simply says Abbeyan-nothing else.

I know of three...

OBEYA 1- Dahman Shawaniyah

OBEYA II- Abayyah- Sharrakiyah

Obeya- (bred in Egypt) (Miqdam X Abla III by El Zafir and out of Bint Zareffa I )-Saqlawiyah-Jidraniyah

Sometimes the mare's name Obeya is also spelled Ebeya


From my notes on the Abeyyan:
+"The Abeyyan also spelled Ubayyan, is noted for type, looking similiar to the Saqlawi, however having an enormous chest and very good shoulder. They are also more refined than the Saqlawi overall, and having stronger legs, good for racing. The head is very refined, bulging forehead, very refined muzzle, expansive nostrils, shorter head, large expressive eyes set deep, Average height on a good Abayyaniyah mare is 14.2 hands. lg-jibbah, cl. mitbah.
(quick, responsive, light on their frontend- excellent athletic abilities, very responsive- agile-speed as the muni-quyah) "

Colors Grey, Bay, fewer chestnut. Dark pigmentation, similiar to Kuhaylan with lower incidence of white

(This information was provided in part by Carl Schmidt- to Richard Pritzlaff and is what I have entered in my notes on the Ubayyan. )

Kelly



+not for reprint, please.

Thank You-All the resources I have checked show her as the Abbeyyan one-but was not sure of the substrain-

Hi Anita, and Hansi
My reasoning, while admittedly, not as informed as some, is thus;

1-Kuhailan, and all of its various spellings, as well as being a strain, is also a generic term, encompassing all "pure" arabian horses.

2-"Khorma" and "Hurma" are pronounced almost exactly the same, leading me to believe that this is merely a transliteration difference.ie; "Hurma" and "Khorma" are actually different transliterations of the same word.

3- I can find NO reference to ANY other horse of the Kuhailan Khorma strain ANYWHERE. As a matter of fact I have never seen Khorma even listed anywhere as BEING a substrain . If it were indeed a substrain, surely there would be at least ONE other horse to be found with the same strain?

3-Turfa was bred by King Ibn Saoud, who was noted for breeding OTHER well known Abbeyans.

4- Khorma (also, addmittedly, according to Raswan) was one of Abbas Pasha's most famous mares, and was a pure in strain Abbeyah Al Hurma mare.

5- Judith Forbis, on page 116 of "The Blue Book", also calls her, "a grey mare, of the OBEYAN strain "

So, that's my reasoning. As far as the US registry is concerned, I believe they simply accepted what was given to them by the British Arab Horse society.
If you (or ANYONE else has ever come across any other reference to the Kuhailan Khorma strain, I would be VERY interested to hear about it.

Cathy

Thanks, Cathy,
Khorma was the site of one of the Saudi royal family's stud farms. The Al Khamsa books make clear that Khorma has never been found as a "sub-strain" - the implication is that the British information somehow appended Khorma to the strain Kuhaylan because of her possible origin at that stud.

I didn't remember the Forbis reference - will have to go look at that. Maybe someday we can get more definitive information by running mtDNA on contemporary mares. I don't think the Bowling's ran *Turfa mtDNA in the 1990's when they did about 20 female lines (have to go find the research paper and check).

Recently I asked Jeanne Craver if any new information has come to light that would affect how *Turfa is described in the upcoming AK III book. She said there was no new info, so we are left with conflicting descriptions.

Anita

Anita....to your knowledge, is anyone actively researching Turfa, or is her history sort of just on the back burner, so to speak.........
Cathy

Robert,
the EGyptian Obeya is actually recorded in EAO III/P124
"Obeya (Inshass) (1940( (Mekdam (inchass) (1932 x Abla (Inshass) (1936)
Bred by Inshass Stud, King Farouk,Egypt. She died in 1950 and was a Saqlawi Jidraniyah

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Cathy,
To my knowledge there is no special research being done on *Turfa that would shed further light on her dam-line. Unfortunatley (IMO) her blood is going, going, and almost gone among active asil breeders because she is not SE or straight Davenport. There are fewer and fewer folks breeding Babsons of combined Egyptian and *Turfa. Her blood does continue among Blue Star breeders, but I think there are fewer than 10 asil foals per year in the US and Canada with her blood - another casualty of the obsession with "straight" bloodlines that have nothing to do with Bedouin tradition (getting off my soapbox now).

Anita

Thanx Anita.........not such a bad soapbox, in my opinion.......
Cathy

Hansi-I am trying to find out more info on OBEYA EGYPT*289- no birth date shown on the datasource but her grand daughter out of
KARIMA EGYPT*271 , BINT KARIMA IOHB*181 was foaled in 1935. Any clue what sub strain of Abbeyyan she would be-If accorrding to all I've researched is correct and she is Abbeyyan?

This is according to Colin Pearson in the " Arabian Horse Families of Egypt"
"Bint Karima was a roan grey, born May 19th, 1935. Her sire was Lady Anne Blunt's Rasheed (Jamil-Zareefa)) and her dam Karima, recorded as the daughter of Dahman and Obeya. Bint Karima was purchased by Inshass from the Kafr Ibrash Farm (date not given) and sold to Abd el Samad el Gayar in July 1953. NO STRAIN IS GIVEN FOR HER. "

Cathy

I found references to her strain thru research by Eva Dano and thru One of Judith Forbis's books.

Could you be more specific? If you could refer me to the books and page numbers, perhaps I could be of more help.....
Cathy

Eva Dano's The Egyptian arabian, page 11 under ancestors of the egyptian arabian in the US, and to be honest not sure which page in AUTHENTIC ARABIAN BLOODSTOCK (the blue book) was in the front ( its on loan to a friend so don't have it handy..

some more on this strain name... Webpage scroll down to the 80s and review the image as well. These notes were based on Lady Blunt's and presented in the book The Arabian Horse: a survey Scherbatov & Stroganov 1900 Russian / 1990 English.

Associated physical attributes come via genetics rather than the name. The name is a protocol which connects, in this instance, the female lines from certain mares. Some descendants follow the mare; others may take on their sire's attributes, depending on the strength of the genetics of either parent and whether or not the stallion is like the mare. Therefore conformational attributes either stay the same or they change but regardless, the strain name stays with the foals born to these female lines (all having the same nominated tail female(s)).

A club sounds like great way to keep abreast of number of foals being born along with the subsequent number of deaths with this strain name.

Hi Southwind.....my copy of Eva Dano's book shows Obeya DB with no strain.
Obeyah II, is listed as Abbeyan Sherrack, but this is a different horse.
I am sorry, but there were quite a few "OBEYAHs" so, without knowing which page you are on in Ms. Forbis' book, I can't comment on that one....
Cathy

Mine says:
name reg color sex year sire dam strain
Obeya (DB) m (Abayyan) a (Abayyan)
Karima Db-Egypt) m Dahman(DB) Obeya(DB) ea ( Abayyan) pg-8 under ansestors
Bint Karima(INSHAS) Egy-IOHB g m 1935 Rasheed (BLT) Karima ea (Abayyan) this is pg 3

started with Ali Kateefa's dam *Higran and worked my way back to find out which Obeya

Mine says the same things on those two pages, except that it does not give a strain. In what year was your edition published? Perhaps that is the difference???
Cathy

we have a famous strain here in Saudi Arabia called abbyan al-saifi

Copyright 1991,2001 Eva Dano
copy 96 of 500

OK, yours is a couple of years newer than mine........
Cathy

Is okay-Took me forever to find her strain originally-now still wondering about sub-strain.

I know I'm going to open a can of worms, and I don't mean to do so, but I do have a question, which I think is a reasonable inquiry.

In the strain theory which some believe is meaningful, and I assume from phenotype in addition to origin, and others discredit as being meaningless as it was a lable relating to the tribe which was the originator and a means of classification of subgroups, is the reason to maintain an interest in the strain, a attempt to the mitochondrial dna from the mare of origin or is there another purpose?

LMG

correction: The prior post should read, "...preserve the mitochonrial...."

LMG

My opinion ONLY ??? An attempt to preserve the history of where the lines originated. Phenotype doesn't usually hold up, unless the horse is intensely line bred to the mare line..........
Cathy

PS And that's assuming that SHE herself actually fits the strain description.....AND is prepotent enough to pass it on......not many are......
Cathy

The Queen of Sheba, owned by the Blunts, only produced one female offspring, that I am aware of and that is Asfur. Her most famous, as to Straight Egypitans was *Astraled, who, I believe was the sire of both Rustem and Sotamm, (very prominent in SE Pedigrees) and in the US, Gulastra, a horse that few contemporary Straight Egyptian breeders seem to be aware of, except with some knowledge about his influence in the Doyle horses.

However, this horse's blood is still available in Straight Egyptian blood lines, until of course, it also disappears from lack of knowledge or interest in keeping these lines available.

I must give kudos to Anita in re: *Turfa. What a wonderful mare, For those of us who utilized her blood in our horses in the past, she gave good structural integrity to her descendants, and I had a couple of her descendants who could, shoeless, trot the contemporary artificial parks horses into the ground.

Sorry, I didn't mean to change the topic.

LMG

I seem to remember a slogan that said, "It's better with TURFA, and the more TURFA, the better" !! Wonder whatever happened to that.........
There are a few Turfa bred horses up here, and they really CAN move.
Cathy.

Ah, but is the trot the ultimate measurement or definition of what constitutes movement or athleticism .....surely it cannot be a saddlebred high trot? And we then wonder why there is a trend towards breeding towards just such movement and look. Then we sit in judgement and sneer at those who have achieved that very thing. I find that somewhat dubious ????. Is it not obvius that even in Arabians, form follows function and when function takes precedence, then the look follows?????
Sorry to be off topic, it just struck me as a bit inviting to ask that question....

Hey Joe.....that's why I said "MOVE".....not "TROT"
Cathy

stand corrected,, sorry I asked,,,as just too tempting.....

You're such a devil, Joe!

These horses didn't have saddle bred movement, that is up and down in one place, but they obviously had a type of movement which was so amazing, that when I received a super 8 movie, of Ru Raa Mida, from Mrs. Perdue, I thought it had been taken in slow motion. But when I went to see the young mare, she actually moved like that - so I bought her.

LMG

Turfa is an Abayyah Al-Hurmahiyah mare.