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Echo1
Hi Everyone,
If you've not recently been to the Pyramid Society web page to get your holiday gifts for the horse lovers in your family, you might have missed the adjustments made to the scoring system for the Event as well as the number of judges to be judging the championship classes.

JUDGING & EVENT SCORING SYSTEM CHANGES
Believing the goals of the judging and scoring system are to encourage improvement in the conformation and movement of Straight Egyptian Arabian horses, while maintaining the type for which the Arabian horse (and the Egyptian Arabian in particular) are known, the Board approved the following revised scoring and judging system beginning in 2008:

You can read the rest of this article here >>>Revised Scoring System
HLM
Dear robert

thank you

the first fault I noticed is the statement under legs "Pastern" should be long, slopy and elastic". That would discribe the pastern of an Engl. TB. But then they dont go on endurance tough terrain, cut or rein, where these pasterns would brake down.. the pastern of the arabian should never be "Long" but rather a medium size in comparrison and the best ARabs I have seen, have just that.. My opinion.

It is not mentioned that points for "Type" are now singular or still duplicated. Did I overlook it.

May be I misunderstood all this, please enlighten me

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
julieM
Hello Hansi,

I agree, but this whole text seems to be very light. I think that published information of this sort could lead to some new breeders making big mistakes especially in the area of legs. I say new breeder thinking that perhaps when starting out not all people come from a horse background. Words like fine canons dont realy say enough, as for the position of the eye, perhaps its just the way that it is worded.
There is no mention to skin and coat, (did I miss it) these are things that are so true to the arabian horse, they can never be disguised by beauty products, have these characteristics been lost because of over clipping. I wonder.
Then again perhaps its me, when I think of the arabian horse, am I just seeing a ghost from the past.

Juliem
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
QUOTE (HLM @ Nov 29 2007, 11:17 AM)
Dear robert

thank you

the first fault I noticed is the statement under legs "Pastern" should be long, slopy and elastic". That would discribe the pastern of an Engl. TB. But then they dont go on endurance tough terrain, cut or rein, where these pasterns would brake down.. the pastern of the arabian should never be "Long" but rather a medium size in comparrison and the best ARabs I have seen, have just that.. My opinion.

It is not mentioned that points for "Type" are now singular or still duplicated. Did I overlook it.

May be I misunderstood all this, please enlighten me

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


Hi Hansi

I totally agree about the pasterns, it also should have mentioned that the canons should be short and the forearm long. One thing I noticed on so many of the horses I saw in the USA earlier this year were how long and spindly the canons were, they are supposed to be 1/3 not half. I suppose it one is aiming for long pasterns they will get long canons to go with it.

Cheers
Jenni




I
lynnbrook
The PS ought to use the new Arabian Scoring System, that will be in the USEF rules. And effective as of April 1st 2008 all AHA shows will be using it.
HLM
Good morning everybody

thank you all and I agree with your observation. I thought I might get some flack this morning, but was prepared.

Indeed you are so right, now some inexperienced person might try to breed for long pastern with a hrose which has them already. the entire discription of the conformation and type standards are out of wack. there are rectangular and square types in all breeds and each has a particular function and limits.

I remember years back when a large prominent breeder produced horses with their front forearms almost flush with the chest, even published a drawing of such, which was supposed to the the correct position.

I think each knoledgable judge should judge these horses as they see it and please nobody breed for "long" pastern. because such horses could never
get through the desert, sands, rocks, lava, heavy terrain. May be this was a typo?
But they would be nice for riding in a park.
Surely their board could not make such rather strage statements. I saw so many of these "Long"pastern with tiny hoofs attached at the EE belonging to prominent breeders and just shuddder. Who does the PS board invite to give such recommendation? Has anybody ever tried to ride such a horse through tough terrain or is in the saddle at all? Or are they pleasing particular breeders who created such detrimental faults?

I think proper drawings of both rectangular and square type horse could be made available under their judging system/definition and explained what limits each one has..

I also dont understand why we need a 1-20 point system, when 1-10 would suffice, as it does with other breeds. Who are we trying to fool by making it look good with the numbers? since most legs get 16-17 points, which under their system is considered "very Good" when I would consider it "Poor" seeing these 16-17 point legs. Just to please the exhibitors etc is not always the way to preserve the SEs and produce good horses. when a horse has such long pastern on tiny hoofs with poor tendons, the points should be "1-3". NOw which judge would dare this, eh? So why show it under the schedule?Legs should be judges as to what they can do, last, etc.and only an experienced rider ca really evaluate this. LIke to see such horse attempting the tevis cup, they wont even handle the trip getting to it.

Just my opinion
All have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
Dear Hansi,
I agree with the issue on long pasterns vs. shorter pasterns. Long pasterns are a weakness if you plan to ride your horse any distance.

A few years ago I posted a photo of one of our horses who is half pritzlaff bred and he was VERY correct in the legs. Yet, MANY people on this forum bashed him saying he 'has short pasterns'. Personally, I don't see them as 'short' I see them as being exactly as they should be. Not short, and not long.

This stallion, I rode quite often, he was a great horse. I think horses with long pasterns might be a little softer to ride through a meadow on a sunny day biggrin.gif but if you were to ride this long pastern horse any distance over 100 yards, or up and down the mountains or rougher terrain, the horse with long pasterns would turn up lame. He also produced horses who were great for performance, and one colt, turned out to be an accomplished 100 mile endurance horse.

I really think that it does take someone who rides, or at least a person who understands the mechanics of a horse for the purpose of riding, endurance, speed, stamina, etc. to write the description of legs, etc, for judging quality in regards to conformation. If the pasterns are too long, they are weak, and will break down. Just like I don't like to see a horse too long in the back as they become weak in the loin and coupling area.

Long pasterns give the horse a 'cleaner and more refined' look to the legs. It adds length of leg to those horses who have a poor or short forearm. (Sadly, I can say, I see more and more horses all the time with a short forearm)I think people didn't understand a long forearm is good, and ignored that aspect, and found a way around lengthening the leg in the pastern to make up for poor forearms or a long and sloping shoulder. Their eye is seeking symmetry. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the stumpy looking horse with no forearms, than a longer pastern. But certainly, this is not the ideal horse for any sort of performance work.

I think in the end though, when a 'great' horse does come in the arena, he will stand out amoung the rest, and although some can't exactly verbalize point for point what makes a great horse, we all for the most part, have the ability to see 'symmetry' and 'balance' in a horse.

A few grey areas, but otherwise a good judging system. smile.gif

kelly
Liz Salmon
Here is a photo of a grey stallion with what I consider nice short cannons, pasterns of a good sensible length and 45 deg. angle. I hate the shoes and pads, but that's what happens here !! This horse has been on the track I believe in Poland, remaining sound.

The photo of the bay shows short, steep pasterns and long cannons.
Echo1
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Nov 30 2007, 03:45 PM)
Here is a photo of a grey stallion with what I consider nice short cannons, pasterns of a good sensible length and 45 deg. angle. I hate the shoes and pads, but that's what happens here !! This horse has been on the track I believe in Poland, remaining sound.

The photo of the bay shows short, steep pasterns and long cannons.
*


Hi Liz,
I always enjoy your posts. You're right. And, you add another 'element' to the pastern bringing up the angle. This also is a very important point. The angle of the pastern is in direct relation to the angle of the shoulder, and if too steep, no matter what length the pastern is, too steep will cause unsoundness from concussion. As, well as the horse having less stamina and will fatigue easily.

Have you ever noticed how a horse who is too steep will wear his hooves down, when not having shoes on?

Kelly
HLM
Dear Liz (Salmon)

you see howe can disagree? The bay horse does NOT have short pastern, it has a short forearm. the cannon bone above the ankel to belowe the knee should fit 2-2,5 times into the forearm starting from above the knee. And it should be "v-shaped" indicting strength to protect the more sensitive lower leg, jut like your upper arm protects yours. .

the grey horse, How can I judge it? All I see is a bad off front leg, where it could be that the tendons are too tight/short not being able to stretch out and make the leg look straight.Indeed the pasterns you see correctly. Cant see the hoofs too well and they could be okay. Cant see underneith to see the soles/walls either, so they could be okay too.Even looking at his off front leg makes me dizzy.How long do you fee this horse last going up and down heavy terrain or racing? I would not stake my life on it. Also dont see forearm/cannon length comperrison. You did not show it.


Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
Hi Hansi and Liz,


There are a couple things that could make this easier. smile.gif First, to really judge the horse well enough, don't you think we have to consider several things as Hansi mentions? Ex: how a horse travels based on pastern length.

Neither horse has great legs here. sad.gif The grey has some corrective shoeing, which could hide his true conformation. Us ladies do know, what a nice pair of high heel shoes will do for the hindquarters. biggrin.gif
As I mentioned earlier, we tend to forget the length of forearm, and focus at the lower leg.

If you watch a horse when he moves, you can tell what the problem is based on how the arch is made when he picks up and sets down his feet.
How a horse travels based on pastern length....
Liz Salmon
I have seen both these horses in person. Here is another photo of the grey, so you can see his long forearms, I have seen him without those shoes too, it's not corrective shoeing, but just how they all shoe for Halter. I would hate to ride the bay with those pasterns. I consider them too short with very little angle to them—a real bone shaker with no suspension. A long well muscled forearm is vital, and should be twice the length of the cannons.
HLM
thanks Liz (Salmon) for the photo of the grey. to my eyes that makes his legs look even worse. What good is a Royls Royce with one flat tire eh? than I rather take the bay, stomach the rough ride but will most likely outlast the grey.
You see I now would give the Grey two points for legs, simply because I havent seen the hind ones. those front legs look awful touchy to me. Bet you he made up with lots of double points for type,and did some winning.And now some people might understand why I am so upset with the unreasonable scoring system of the EE. a better horse would have been given the gate, to make room for another garden ornament. Please correct me if I wrong.

By he way I have seen numerous halter champions in the past at the Ee which got 16-18 points for similar leg faults and worse, imagine.Translated into very good legs. Now what expert would agree on that, eh.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Salmon
Very interesting Hansi since the grey was raced 20 times in 2 seasons in Poland, he had 2 wins and 13 placings and Polish National Champion stallion—he remains very sound today. The bay never appeared under saddle and not only had those horrible pasterns, long cannons, short forearms, calf knees, but also a club foot which you can just see on his right foot. In my opinion the Poles know how to breed and test horses, which is always what you want—yes ? I also know which one I would rather ride.

I guess that you never will agree with anything that I post, but hey that's what makes the world go around—it would be very boring if we all thought the same.
HLM
thank you Liz (Salmon) I guess the tendon problem started through racing or after his retirement from it. No, cant see clubfoot from the photos.
May be you can tell us the name of the grey so that we all can mark down why the front legs look as they do. that should not be hard and would be educational.. If all of us would have known- racing etc- aforehand, then we could have made allowances. However, had this horse not raced, then I stand firm on my reasoning. Mind you I have seen many top racers which in their twenties still have crystal clear legs. Of course it can just take one mis step, and the horse can bow or bog.
I have one almost 31 years old with what I call a "20" leg, clean, clear and sound.
He worked pretty hard too.

Had I put the photos of the grey on, I would have stated" Please this is only to compare pastern, kindly overlook the tendons infront, the horse raced a lot and ended up with this problem". Now that I would do to right of the start avoid misunderstanding or misjudging.

I agree with numerous things you state, just sometimes dont like the way you judge horses, in particular legs. I feel you are far to generous in the scores, or to vague trying to be too nice and with it I am sometimes confused. You most likely dont like my judging either. So we agree to disagree. One just cant get a a little bit pregnant, you see. In the meantime we can enjoy exchanging views.
Just try to be a bit more explanatory, so that I can understand better.

thanks and have a grand evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
Liz and Hansi,
So what do you suggest to someone who is going to show, and does not breed for long/weak pasterns ? How many points would that be?

Kelly
HLM
Goodmorning everybody

Dear Kelly

First of all this is the Se forum and we are discussing the EE. this is what confused me with Liz (Salmon) showing a photo of a polish stud. I had hoped some photos are availabe of SEs for comparrison.

Kelly, there is more to a leg then just pasterns, as you well know. . So I cant asnwer your question, other than saying- if the rest of the legs are correct I most likely give a "20", meaning that also the pastern are of adequate length.
According to the PS score sheet a "20" is "Ideal". Now what is this supposed to mean? Like to see a drawing of what they mean by it. That sort of makes the score below it which states" excellent" what in comparrison to "ideal".?
But as Robert pointed out so well, it is the movement. And there we look also at the hip-buttock-stifle area and in particular the stifle. When one judges individual conformation parts and concludes, it must be taken into account how they fit together with all parts. Also to consider the emphasis to look carefully at the head would make me think the judges need to take a tape measure along.

As you also know tendons are very important, they are very sensitive and unless there is a strong long forearm to take to brunt of the impact, they can blow quickly.
the same goes for weak joints, to small, etc. And lastlyit is hard for me to judge from photos, like to see the horse in the flesh and under saddle..

The Poles, as confirmed by Liz (Salmon) breed good horses and test them. Now I am waiting to hear of the test of the recently imported Se halter champion stallion. Surely they wont start now breeding from untested stallions, or? Can this horse be compared with the fabulous "Druch"?

Take care and have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Echo1
Hi Hansi,
Thanks for your response.
It is true that a horse who has too long a pastern isn't going to move properly and if too short , the horse also does not have proper movement.

You can tell the problem when the horse picks up his feet and sets them down.

Kelly
mckulley1
Hansi,

I'm only responding to your obvious misjudgment because I received a private email to do so.

Do you have ANY idea to whom those bay legs belong to? BEY SHAH. So go ahead and stomach THAT ride because as history has shown us, that horse could have NEVER outlasted the Grey. Nor most of his get and grand get. Won't even get into the fertility issues.

Where in contrast, the Grey is an accomplished race horse, show horse, and State Stud head sire with IMPECCABLE legs. TEXTBOOK legs. As do his get - who have been World Champions and have raced and his grand get who have been World Champions and most recently unanimous US National Champions. He is sound and still being ridden to this day. And bred. In the first photo, Liz took that shortly after his importation. I do hope that some time soon she will visit him again and take new photos. The shoes and pads were due to the lack of proper hoof care while living overseas. The pads were there to support his heels while new feet grew out. He is no longer shod this way.

NOW if you want to see some LEGS go over to the Midwest site, to the Stallions for sale page and download the video for the chestnut stallion Monogramm by DS Major Afire. I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a forearm so stinking short with cannons so FREAKING long EVER. OUCH.
Liz Salmon
Here are more recent photos of the greys front legs, as Amanda says the original photo was taken shortly after importation.
HLM
Mckulley1

Well my dear, I judged by the photos, and based on it I STAND FIRM!!!!
It is obvious now, that they were misleading referring to the grey. Refering to the bay, Liz (Salmon) is correct in her observation, with the exception that both of you call it either long or short cannon, whereas I maintain that such size is dictated by the length of the forearm. Of course, if you feel that the oldtimer master who taught us are WAY OFF and taught wrong, that is your perogative.

This also again confirms that one can not have a true judgment of any horse simply by looking at photos or videos, espcially when some are manufatured by photographic artists, or are computer edited. The only ones one can trust more is if the horse is at lieberty, and such photos/videos are unedited and taken by
a realistic photographer.

Furthermore, I have been long enough in the saddle riding over some of the taughest terrains in Canada for decades to be able to evaluate a horses legs, plus of course the rest.

While flat racing is a hard stress performance, and in most cases when injuries occur it would be in the front legs, it is a totally different story when riding taught terrain cross country. One of the taughest is the tevis cup, which I unfortunately have never ridden. But when in taugh terrain hunting country in Canada you have to jump solid stone walls, or solid fences landing full speed on rocks so that you see the sparks flying, yes my dear, you better have legs with excellent tendons and joints and hoofs.

You are entitled to your judgement, be it a horse or me, and I trust this is done through your many years of experiences riding many breed of horses through and over anything. If this is not the case, than I suggest you start doing it now learning from it. If I live long enough thereafter, may be we can discuss this subject again. So see you in about ten years, if God is willing.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Dieter
Photos can be so misleading, either pro or con, particularly when it comes to legs and feet. Just another example of WHY we need to GO SEE the horse in the flesh.

Liz
Liz Salmon
Hansi, maybe McCulley hasn't had the length of time that you and I have had, (you are only 5 years older than me) but I have had the same experiences as you regarding riding over rough territory such as Exmoor (50 mile endurance ride) and regularly foxhunting over the South Downs, three day eventing, hunter trials etc. Just because we are older doesn't mean that we automatically know more than a younger person. You and I were riding well before most Olympic riders—does that make us better riders—heavens NO !!

I too was taught by old masters such as R.S. Summerhays (author, judge and great horseman) Lady Anne Lytton (Lady Anne Blunts granddaughter) and Charles Harris, Fellow of the British Horse Society and three years with the Spanish Riding School. A good eye for a horse is not in everyone. Having taught a judging class—by the end of the semester, only about half the class had the ability and eye to judge.

Yes. bottom line, go and see for yourself, and I've seen both those sets of legs several times.
mckulley1
Not only have I ridden first field in one of the oldest hunt clubs in the county, but have Hunter Paced, worked four years at a racing stable in Belgium, and have a hunter/jumper background.

If you want an absolute experience on legs, then go work in a racing stable. It is a daily task and you learn very quickly about legs and what kind of legs carry a horse over the finish line vs. down the beef jerky shoot. In my time there there was only one stallion that had such fine bone and small feet that his hooves were literally falling apart. But he'd won everything in France and Belgium and eventually became the herd sire.

You know Hansi, you will get respect when you start to GIVE respect. I don't care if the Dali freaking Lama gave you the key to Life.....you're still impossible to respect on this board.

Back to ignore.
Liz Salmon
It's amazing sometimes when I look at the feet and legs of winning steeplechase TBs that they could have won so much and remained sound. I used to exercise TBs at a race stable and they never seemed to be on all four legs—talk about bucking too. As McCulley said you do learn a lot about legs and feet.
HLM
Yes my dear MKulley1, respect has to be earned and most certainly not through insults you issued, and did not apologyze for. such lack of respect indicates your character, you must be aware of.

So keep on ignoring, that could also be understood towards your ignorance about other things. Nobody knows it all, and it would take another thousand years
to do know more. But in the meantime we can learn from each other, sharing experiences and trying to help.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Liz (Salmon)

that is a frail excuse you just made. It is time through which we learn and experience.Of course I realize that many a young one gained experiences and I myself learned things from our smallest grooms, from my staff in my companies, etc. which became help in future dealings,enterprises.

When personal insults are issued, no apology given then I know with who I am dealing with. I have made errors and apologyze and should I make some again, I again will apologyze. Mckulley1 stated she rode with hunts, and you Liz and I both know the behavior and attitude of its members, where gallantry, good manners and respect for each other prevails.As you know it takes many hunts,years, before one earns the Hunt colours, at least in Canada and England.
We used to hunt twice a week, did cub hunting during the off time and fully hunted August into December, weather considering.

Regardless, what the oldtimer masters taught us still stands today, because horse has not changed, man has. I trust you understand in which sense I am stating this.

I am aware of some horses which indeed had a leg conformation indicating they could not do much, yet did. But I am also aware of some of their offspring with the same problems which could not. there are always exceptions to any rule, but we are not here to discuss exceptions I believe.

I have a race trainers licence for Florida for two decades, am very much aware of what it takes to select a horse for this flat racing stress sport. and I have seen horses which raced dozens of times, such as Druch, ZT Ali Baba retiring from such with absolutely clean legs.Some horses win a lot and retire early because of breakdowns, which can be contributed to overruse, or whatever.Nothing last forever, I guess.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.




.
Echo1
Hansi and Liz are two very capable horsewomen, who are able to articulate their professional expert opinions . smile.gif
Please let them post their opinions without adding such. We don't need this thread highjacked as we've seen on other threads where the topic is changed to bashing a particular stallion or his 'fertility' or other such issues as in this case, your opinions of the Dalai Lama.
Thank you for your consideration. smile.gif

P.S. For the record, Bey Shah has produced over 300 show winning offspring in halter and performance and over 100 offspring which were 'winning' at a US National level in halter and performance. (Arlene Majid).

Kelly
Carol Cooper-Hall
Not worth it. dry.gif
Robert 1
Dear Hansi,
I knew you were interested in racing the Arabian Horse but, I didn't know to what degree and now that you have clarified this for me , I am impressed, a license for this long is certainly telling me you have a keen eye for the legs of a horse, afterall with out good legs what would any race horse be but, perhaps a pony horse for the truly good race horses with good legs. wink.gif
I owe you a glass of wine for sharing this with us because afterall you are not the one who began to throw out their particular credentials like they were playing rummy cards but, when you needed the trump card you had it to play. laugh.gif
With respect always,
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians, USA
HLM
Dear Robert

thank you. I truly love racing and we did have our own training track and starting gate. It truly teaches so much when you see if your judgment for a horse before being under saddle was correct. You will get surprises.

We no longer race, sold many of our good mares and stallions/colts, but we have a few youngsters we might start under saddle next year. They are just two year old colts but I feel pretty good about them. So lets wait and see..

Yes, I have always been very particular about legs. It takes so much and costs so much to train, so one needs to be careful. But I am also just as particular about the mind, the atttitude, etc.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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