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Razzmatazz
Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
reidfm
The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog, Floyd Reid
diane
QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 09:43 AM)
The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog,              Floyd Reid
*


Its understood these days that this should be read as : no known Muniqi blood. The reason being that categorical proof is needed before it can be stated that there is no Muniqi blood within a pedigree. Without knowing every single individual within the entire pedigree, categorical proof is not possible.
Razzmatazz
Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why is that the difference between them?
Echo1
QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 02:35 AM)
Its understood these days that this should be read as : no known Muniqi blood.  The reason being that categorical proof is needed before it can be stated that there is no Muniqi blood within a pedigree.  Without knowing every single individual within the entire pedigree, categorical proof is not possible.
*


untrue
diane
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 12:30 AM)
untrue
*

ok - prove it.

Apologies... let me rephrase this.... please substantiate your answer biggrin.gif
diane
QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 17 2007, 11:36 PM)
Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why is that the difference between them?
*

The generalised description of the Muniqi was more of a racer - longer, finer perhaps a tad course.

Its been proven time and again that this statement is a generalisation and one may suggest bias towards an issue.
Bandit
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif

Just because Blue Star horses have no recorded muniqui blood in them doesnt mean they dont have any. It just means that no one knows if they do or not.
Echo1
QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 11:29 PM)
The generalised description of the Muniqi was more of a racer - longer, finer perhaps a tad course. 

Its been proven time and again that this statement is a generalisation and one may suggest bias towards an issue.
*



Also untrue.
Echo1
QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 12:43 AM)
The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog,              Floyd Reid
*



This would be true
Echo1
QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 17 2007, 11:55 PM)
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif

.
*



A tree lying on the ground

is proof that it fell
diane
QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 08:55 AM)
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif
Just because Blue Star horses have no recorded muniqui blood in them doesnt mean they dont have any. It just means that no one knows if they do or not.
*

Thanks Bandit smile.gif
Bandit
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 17 2007, 06:39 PM)
A tree lying on the ground

is proof that it fell
*


Well sugar, if you have proof then lets see it because you have some very important information there. I know of a few books that need to be rewritten if your information can hold up under close scrutiny and one woman who needs to sit down before being told of this awesome information less the poor dear faint at being told the good news.

I would like to be like the banty rooster..the cock of the walk, letting everyone know my blue star mare definitely has no muniqi blood in her and her and her Blue Star relatives are one step closer to reaching proof of absolute purity.

Me thinks your information is too valuable to keep it to yourself so please do my ego a huge favor and post the valuable information here, I cant wait to see it. smile.gif.
JoeFerriss
I am just saying this off the top of my head without going back into the archives to look up anything . I think that Miss Jane Ott and her mother Mrs John Erken Ott in their writings at some point indicated that this concept of sorting out the likely non Muniqi with those that contain some measure of the Muniqi strain was chosen at their point in time (Mid 1950s to late 1960s) as worth doing in the event that if theories were proven true about the differences in Muniqi suggested by Carl Raswan, if something was not done about it then then later on it would be too late. I believe they even said in some manner that if the theories were not true the point would be moot but it was not worth the gamble to wait. Whether the riddle ever gets solved or not, I do not know, but what gets often overlooked is that many of the Arabians chosen as the foundation for the BLUE STAR non-Muniqi group were genetically rich outcrosses to other Egyptian and desert breeding and in creating this BLUE STAR breeding group, a whole new gene pool was preserved, and one that from my personal observation of many of these individuals provided some excellent Arabians much like those I saw among the Bedouin tribes and also of many of the Davenport Arabians. For a time in the late 1970s and early 1980s some people crossed BLUE STAR stock with Egyptian and other Al Khamsa and some excellent results were produced. Sadly this was not fashionable at the time and not carried forward. For those like myself who bred mainly Egyptian-Turfa stock we had the advantage of using some BLUE STAR horses. I leased a BLUE STAR stallion one time my self. In the bigger picture, the BLUE STAR movement was the only other significant movement, besides the Davenport breeding program, which preserved some significant desert breeding, similar to the way horses were bred in Egypt via the Inshass Stud with Saud and other desert stock added and the RAS which from time to time found outcross desert stock which extended the vitality of the breeding program. In fact as early as Lady Anne Blunt's desert bred stallion Saadoun, in the Durra line, succeeding generations of periodic introduction of outcross desert breeding has been of benefit in Egyptian breeding. So whether one chooses to subscribe to the basis of BLUE STAR breeding or not, it has given us a rich source of desert blood not related to either Davenport or other Egyptian lines.
diane
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 10:39 AM)
A tree lying on the ground  is proof that it fell
*

... the tree on the ground isn't proving whether or not it made a sound as it fell. It simply states the tree is on the ground. Nobody can say that it made a sound while it fell because no one heard it.

There is no known record of Muniqi strains within the Blue Stars. Not ALL records are known (because they were verbal recounts which concentrated on the tail female only) so there is no proof whether or not Muniqi strain names are within the Blue Stars.

Miss JL Ott has limited information. We all have limited information about the history of the Breed. What we do know now is the extent of what we don't know! blink.gif smile.gif
Nadj al Nur
Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate, in this instance, may I point out that every horse in a pedigree does have a tail female line??
Cathy
diane
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Dec 18 2007, 04:53 PM)
Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate, in this instance, may I point out that every horse in a pedigree does have a tail female line??
Cathy
*

Go right ahead, Cathy smile.gif Each and every horse has a sire. The sire's strain name (ie tale female) is known but not necessarily any of the others - and this is where the uncertainty creeps in. No-one (not even Kelly) can confirm that each and every asil desert bred horse without a listed strain name is categorically NOT Muniqi.

Any asil desert bred horse of the nomadic Bedouin with Original Arabian or Desert Bred tag can not be accurately detailed for strain names in all ancestors with the exception of the tail females on the female lines.

Hope this helps to clarify the issue. smile.gif
Echo1
QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 04:13 AM)
Well sugar, if you have proof then lets see it because you have some very important information there.  I know of a few books that need to be rewritten if your information can hold up under close scrutiny and one woman who needs to sit down before being told of this awesome information less the poor dear fainit at being told the good news.  

I would like to be like a bany rooster..the cock of the walk, letting everyone know my blue star mare definitely has no muniqui blood in her and her and her relatives are one step closer to reaching proof of absolute purity.   

Me thinks your information is too valuable to keep it to yourself so please do my ego a huge favor  and and post the valuable information here, I cant wait to see it.  smile.gif

Love ya, Echo1
*


If a tree is lying on the ground
it is proof that it fell

I've seen a tree fall
and when it did
it made a sound.

When considering horses, we should not consider the 'most remote' of ideas before looking at the obvious first. (Diane)

Sorry if I bruised your ego, Sugar. biggrin.gif It wasn't my intention.

Mu'iqui blood isn't the problem, it was an original strain from thousands of years ago. As we know, horses were recorded and remembered by strain, which is purely a reflection of the tail female line. So what about the stallions in the pedigree?

300 years ago, Mu'niqiyah mares were bred to Turkomen stallions by the Salqa Bedouins. This is documented.
Echo1
QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 05:42 AM)
... the tree on the ground isn't proving whether or not it made a sound as it fell.  It simply states the tree is on the ground.  Nobody can say that it made a sound while it fell because no one heard it.

There is no known record of Muniqi strains within the Blue Stars.  Not ALL records are known (because they were verbal recounts which concentrated on the tail female only) so there is no proof whether or not Muniqi strain names are within the Blue Stars. 

Miss JL Ott has limited information.  We all have limited information about the history of the Breed.  What we do know now is the extent of what we don't know!  blink.gif  smile.gif
*



You've "missed the point and purpose "of what Blue Star is all about. It was done as an assist at a 'reintroduction' of Mu'iniqi blood back into the classic strains. It was done to serve a purpose and identify horses who had been bred a special way to 'breed out' Turkoman blood. The pedigrees are such that they were bred to only Asil horses for generation upon generation to help isolate the problem and then ensure the Turkoman influence could be removed from the horse. This way an entire strain would not be lost.

Many very concerned and astute breeders took it upon themselves to do this so they could be reintroduced into the breeding population without having the Turkomen influence show up.

So yet again, may I politely remind you that it is never necessary to bash such people as Raswan, Ott, or others to make your remote claims. Rather, please consider trying to understand the history and understand why things happened and why sometimes these horses were isolated was not a bad thing. It was done to clean up a pedigree and clean up the genetics so the Mu'iniqi could rejoin the population. It should not be a concern today. smile.gif
Bandit
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:34 AM)
When considering horses, we should not consider the 'most remote' of ideas before looking at the obvious first. (Diane)

Mu'iqui blood isn't the problem, it was an original strain from thousands of years ago. As we know, horses were recorded and remembered by strain, which is purely a reflection of the tail female line. So what about the stallions in the pedigree?

300 years ago, Mu'niqiyah mares were bred to Turkomen stallions by the Salqa Bedouins. This is documented.
*


Well your right...honey bunny. Just when I think I know something someone lets me know I need to keep reading and asking questions. Hahaha. smile.gif
Echo1
Joe Ferriss,
Thank you for your post. It solidifies the importance of the Blue Star and how it can be used today. smile.gif Also, we should worry today about Mu'iniqi unless we start to lose the classic type, and we know where to go to help correct this.
Echo1
QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 03:04 PM)
Well your right...honey bunny. Just when I think I know something someone lets me know I need to keep reading and asking questions. Hahaha.  smile.gif
*


Bandit,
Again, I have to admit, I don't know anything about chickens and know nothing about rabbits either. biggrin.gif
The trouble is that there is so much negativity that floats around in regards to preservation breeding and what it was truly intended for, the different pursposes these titles mean, and not to be saying all labels are validating, but if we stop for a second and get passed this, there is some merit to some of this.
I believe people should be given the facts as they were, and we can all decide for ourselves what direction we want to go.
JacqueB
I need a history lesson here.
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood? I think I understand it to be a strain. If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Then Echo1 says the mares of that strain were bred to Turkomen stallions. And I'm guessing we don't know if all of the mares were bred to Turkomen stallion and what horses were not products of Mu'iqui/Turkomen blood? Then Echo1 describes an effort to save the strain from the influence of Turkomen blood by breeding it out to a functional degree over many generations, so these are included in the blue list horses?

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Please understand I don't care what the answer is I just want to know what we know and don't know.... and taking the easy way out by asking here instead of going to the Middle East, digging in libraries, having all the books....
Thanks
Jacque
Bandit
I doubt going to the middle east would get you any more answers than can be found in your own country.

Look at some of the horses that are being exported far and wide from different countries to the ME. Im not saying that the horses that are going there are inferior I just doubt a Arabian Bedouin migrating thru the Nejd would of been interested in many of them. Maybe Im wrong about this though. This is just my opinion and of course everyone has one of those. tongue.gif

Flame suit on and ready for blastoff. ph34r.gif

There is alot of wisdom in Echo1s words though--I believe people should be given the facts as they were, and we can all decide for ourselves what direction we want to go.

Echo 1, please tell us why there is negativity about preservation breeding?
Real preservation breeding. Not just putting two horses together and hoping for the best.

Diane, please come back. I like to hear what you have to say. smile.gif
JacqueB
Hi Bandit,
Let me add that I'm new to SE/desert Arabians.
So I don't know what you are wanting me to understand when you write -
"Look at some of the horses that are being exported far and wide from different countries to the ME. Im not saying that the horses that are going there are inferior I just doubt a Arabian Bedouin migrating thru the Nejd would of been interested in many of them"

And I'm totally unaware of negativity about preservation breeding. And am caught alittle off guard since I have such admiration for Babson horses - I actually look for them in a pedigree.
So Bandit you are speaking from an experienced desert/asil/SE forum reader and breeder
perspective which has assumptions of content that I am without.
Jacque
Bandit
QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM)
So Bandit you are speaking from an experienced desert/asil/SE forum reader and breeder
Jaque
*


Oh no Jaque, I figure in about 10 years i might have a little REAL experience in the areas of discussion here. Right now Im just learning alot and being a nuisance to the people Im trying to learn from.

About two years ago it hit me like a ton of bricks that I didnt know didley squat about Arabian horse breeding after about 15 some odd years of having different types of Arabian horses, breeding a few of them and trying very hard to study the different strains and types. Unfortuately I like to find out some things the hard way. I couldnt see the forest for all the pretty show horses for a long time. I still like show horses but their no longer my main point of interest.
There are alot of differnt types of Arabians out there and to each his own.

Were just having a discussion here about these particular kind. You could say conversations such as these teater on the edge of fanaticism. How dare I say such a thing! Bad Bandit, bad. smile.gif
Marilee
We are all learning.

I love Mr. Ferriss's way of speaking and sharing information. I can see that he is open to new information and opinions. How can the past be so known by some and so unknown to others? We keep asking and reading and studying, but it is more in the way we ask and how we learn.

I am a kindergarten teacher, but I never assume that I always know more than my students. In many ways they know more than I do. We share our ideas.

Some teachers only teach a part of the truth. My mentors opened my eyes, but did not impose their ideas on me. So much of this studying was done way before computers and DNA research.
diane
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 11:44 PM)
You've "missed the point and purpose "of what Blue Star is all about.  It was done as an assist at a 'reintroduction' of Mu'iniqi blood back into the classic strains.  It was done to serve a purpose and identify horses who had been bred a special way to 'breed out' Turkoman blood.  The pedigrees are such that they were bred to only Asil horses for generation upon generation to help isolate the problem and then ensure the Turkoman influence could be removed from the horse. This way an entire strain would not be lost.
Many very concerned and astute breeders took it upon themselves to do this so they could be reintroduced into the breeding population without having the Turkomen influence show up.
So yet again, may I politely remind you that it is never necessary to bash such people as Raswan, Ott, or others to make your remote claims.  Rather, please consider trying to understand the history and understand why things happened and  why sometimes these horses were isolated was not a bad thing.  It was done to clean up a pedigree and clean up the genetics so the Mu'iniqi could rejoin the population.  It should not be a concern today.  smile.gif
*

To follow your view point, Kelly, you are advocating that the concept of Blue Stars was to assist at a reintroduction of Mu'iniqi blood (your words), then why would it be that the structure of JL Ott's work promotes the Blue Stars first (ie asil desert bred horses without any recorded Muni'qi strain names) then the Blue List (which have Muni'qi strain names) and then the Blue List (sub lists) - the sublists per the discretion of JL Ott?

The Blue Star definition is for those asil desert bred horses who have no recorded Mu'niqi strain name(s).

My understanding is that JL Ott promoted that the asil desert bred Blue Star horse should preferrably be bred to another asil desert bred Blue Star horse. Rather than Blue Star to Blue LIst - which is what you are essentially suggesting.

To save space, my view on the lead up history (prior to 300 years and a fair few more before these) can be found in this thread: Muniqi Turkoman Akhal Teke : Connections

ohmy.gif Kelly - you fib... you wrote and illustrated that rabbits have long ears. Therefore you do know more about rabbits aka bunnies than you care to admit. laugh.gif Where are the Hadban-ears?, Tiny, tippy, sickle-shaped #159 you bunny you, fancy forgetting this! biggrin.gif
diane
QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 19 2007, 01:21 AM)
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood?  I think I understand it to be a strain.  If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Thanks Jacque
*

Jacque - not ignoring you... I'll reply shortly wink.gif

Edited...

Firstly - Muni'gi is a name. Strain naming is a naming protocol generated through necessity by the nomadic Bedouin's culture. They were nomadic, this infers that they did not travel with unnecessary belongings including any written materials such as pedigrees. Instead, they generated a naming system / protocol by which they could identify and keep track of their asil breeding stock. There were other horses in the region, the asil population only being a portion of them. There needed to be a mechanism - a protocol other than a written form. It is suggested that the Bedouin was faithful to the naming of the strains and forthright if the mare(s) was won from them so that the tradition could be maintained.

Second - Its a strain name which was popularised (as like any other strain name) by what could be seen of a few representatives at that time in history by a few westerners. The genetic history of the asil horse itself was not known, or by comparison, extremely limited therefore what its genetic background held in store for future generations would be found out only by the practice of breeding and somewhat western understanding. The immediate families from the desert and/or Egypt bred differently. If strains were a genetic power and were so incredibly resilient, these differences would not have happened. There wouldn't have been family differences from the first asil imports.

To your second question ~ essentially, yes (per the discussion on the Turkoman / Akhal Teke thread). Quite simply we do not know the full history of the asil horse as bred by the nomadic Bedouin. The fact is that it was the nomadic Bedouin who more or less created what they define as the asil desert bred horse. Whether or not this asil desert bred horse is genetically pure or not remains inconsequential. Their generations of culture and persistence has given us the modern asil desert horse. Simply look at the differences that can be seen today from the asil ancestors barely one hundred years ago. By breeding in what can amount to line breeding (closed, finite gene pool) the refinement of the Breed continues.

Quite simply, as Joe has said, we are following and promoting the results of a very specific culture. MHO there is no genetic purity. This has been proven of human kind. Horses, any horses (or that matter any creature), are shaped and bred by cultural definitions and climatic limitations.
smile.gif
Bandit
QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 08:21 PM)
To follow your view point, Kelly, you are advocating that the concept of Blue Stars was to assist at a reintroduction of Mu'iniqi blood (your words), then why would it be that the structure of JL Ott's work promotes the Blue Stars first (ie asil desert bred horses without any recorded Muni'qi strain names) then the Blue List (which have Muni'qi strain names) and then the Blue List (sub lists) - the sublists per the discretion of JL Ott? 

*


Yea Echo1 what about this? This is the whole premise for preserving them isnt it-No Muniqi?
BasiliskBelka
IMO, the whole Blue Star thing is of questionable value UNTIL we have DNA sequencing available for the whole asil population.

Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue' concept is past its sell-by date. Yes, it was valuable *at the time* in that it alerted people to the necessity of preserving asil lines in general, but the information the Otts had to had was both limited and incorrect. Asil research has moved forward significantly since then - the information pool is infinitely larger and shared by thousands, not a handful. The Blue Catalogue should be relegated to a historical artefact and breeders should go forward with our new knowledge and DNA results. Historical documents and recollections can be misinterpreted or falsified: DNA is the only reliable instrument.

We have NO way of knowing the truth behind the 'some Maneghys have Turkoman blood' without DNA testing and comparison: it is entirely possible that the whole story is nothing more than a Bedouin equivalent of 'creative accountancy' in order to enhance the status of the stock owned by the tribe telling the story!

Keren
BasiliskBelka
With regard to the Caspian Horse (*not* pony - it does not have pony characteristics) as mentioned in the Turkoman thread: the last I heard from the researchers sequencing Caspian DNA, they were coming more and more to the conclusion that the Caspian was not some 'proto-Arab' or transitional breed, but in fact represented a population of Arabian horses that had become miniaturised through isolation and constant inbreeding within a limited gene pool.

Keren
JoeFerriss
I tend to think that the preservation of the desert Arabian horse in today's world is not strictly a scientific issue with lines drawn by DNA or other kinds of scientific measurement. It is fascinating and enlightening to see this kind of scientific work unfold but I feel the maintenance of the desert horse is more of a cultural matter. If future science does or does not agree with the human definitions or partitions of each breeding group it will not change my thinking.

The whole matter of trying to document in various ways horses whose ancestry is "reasonably assumed" to originate from the Bedouin horse breeding tribes is only one step of the process of preservation. It does provide a "core" population from which to build. But the second part of this process is to carry forward the body of knowledge from the Bedouin tribes past breeding and horse use practices, as much as possible in today's world, and continually apply it to this identified "core" population in hopes of simply maintaining the kind of horse which was traditionally and historically known as the Arab horse, product of these tribal lifestyles.

Even in my very limited travels, I saw the continuing impact of modern times on the lifestyle of the two tribes I visited. By their own lament, conditions are not the same as in the past. In one of our Shammar interviews, I asked the question: "Do you feel your horses are as good today as in the past?" The response in essence was that in times past the desert wolf packs used to run free and was a part of life. Their presence caused the mares and foals to be very keen and very swift to avoid the taking of the very young or weak. Today the wolf is no longer a threat, so how can the mares and foals of now be as swift?

Taking just this one story into account, it can be seen that the various challenges of the Bedouin lifestyle requires them to adapt, and adaptation needs for them to have the freedom to make choices of survival. If those choices added some DNA that we do not know about now but discover in the future, so what? It was this lifestyle process that created the Arabian that we love today.

At least from their travels and / or writings the Blunts, Homer Davenport, Carl Raswan, the Otts and many other benefactors helped to us to identify this "core". It is interesting when one goes back and reads the Blue Catalog how much of the commentary is "Bedouin" oriented, regardless of what is said about the Muniqi or non-Muniqi.

We will continue to find various ways to use this population and if some breed with and some without Muniqi, or any other strain so be it. The breeders of the world represent a great diversity of thougtht. As long as ALL of the core is preserved and a general understanding of the traditional Bedouin horse is carried forward, I see a bright future for the Arabian.

Sorry for the long post.
diane
quote:Joe Ferriss Dec 20 2007, 01:01 AM
I tend to think that the preservation of the desert Arabian horse in today's world is not strictly a scientific issue with lines drawn by DNA or other kinds of scientific measurement. It is fascinating and enlightening to see this kind of scientific work unfold but I feel the maintenance of the desert horse is more of a cultural matter. If future science does or does not agree with the human definitions or partitions of each breeding group it will not change my thinking.
The whole matter of trying to document in various ways horses whose ancestry is "reasonably assumed" to originate from the Bedouin horse breeding tribes is only one step of the process of preservation. It does provide a "core" population from which to build. But the second part of this process is to carry forward the body of knowledge from the Bedouin tribes past breeding and horse use practices, as much as possible in today's world, and continually apply it to this identified "core" population in hopes of simply maintaining the kind of horse which was traditionally and historically known as the Arab horse, product of these tribal lifestyles.
Even in my very limited travels, I saw the continuing impact of modern times on the lifestyle of the two tribes I visited. By their own lament, conditions are not the same as in the past. In one of our Shammar interviews, I asked the question: "Do you feel your horses are as good today as in the past?" The response in essence was that in times past the desert wolf packs used to run free and was a part of life. Their presence caused the mares and foals to be very keen and very swift to avoid the taking of the very young or weak. Today the wolf is no longer a threat, so how can the mares and foals of now be as swift?
Taking just this one story into account, it can be seen that the various challenges of the Bedouin lifestyle requires them to adapt, and adaptation needs for them to have the freedom to make choices of survival. If those choices added some DNA that we do not know about now but discover in the future, so what? It was this lifestyle process that created the Arabian that we love today.
At least from their travels and / or writings the Blunts, Homer Davenport, Carl Raswan, the Otts and many other benefactors helped to us to identify this "core". It is interesting when one goes back and reads the Blue Catalog how much of the commentary is "Bedouin" oriented, regardless of what is said about the Muniqi or non-Muniqi.
We will continue to find various ways to use this population and if some breed with and some without Muniqi, or any other strain so be it. The breeders of the world represent a great diversity of thougtht. As long as ALL of the core is preserved and a general understanding of the traditional Bedouin horse is carried forward, I see a bright future for the Arabian.
*


diane writes: smile.gif very succinct.
JacqueB
Thanks Joe for your post.
And thanks Diane for highlighting what you particularly found valuable & for the link on the Ahkal Teke/Caspian Horse/Arabian thread.
I still need a bit more background to understand the Muniqi- non Muniqi issue.
Through innuendo, on this thread, I think the Muniqi blood is associated with the Turkomen horse. And is that cross which was seen in the Muniqi strain some how seen as undesirable, at least by some folks?
And so what were those characteristics?
And did the Muniqi not really reach into the Nejd as much, more along northern borders - more racing types, maybe bigger? picked up by the Polish for their calvary/driving work?
Were their personality characteristics different also?
I just don't the influences which would cause a person or people to value or not value Muniqi blood.
If someone could direct me to a link that would tell me all about this issue - that would be great.
Or if you know what pages in Forbis' Blue or Gold book- I've got those. I've also go Dr. Nagal's book on Hanan.
Or if you can just write it out right here, of course that would be fantastic!
Thanks,
jb
Kimberli Nelson
If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the Otts were in fact the beginning of preservation as we know it today. We may agree to disagree about the validity of their cause but without them, would we even know or begin to understand the priceless treasure we have today?
Marilee
Dear jb:

You should get a gold star for asking all these great ?s here.

How about a blue star instead? (teacher joke, it's been a long day). biggrin.gif
diane
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Dec 20 2007, 09:21 AM)
If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the Otts were in fact the beginning of preservation as we know it today. We may agree to disagree about the validity of their cause but without them, would we even know or begin to understand the priceless treasure we have today?
*

Well written, Kimberli - my sentiments entirely (my apologies for not stating this earlier). There is room and always will be room for the Blue Catalogue even if it is history.
diane
JacqueB, Dec 20 2007, 09:18 AM writes:
And thanks Diane for highlighting what you particularly found valuable & for the link on the Ahkal Teke/Caspian Horse/Arabian thread.
I still need a bit more background to understand the Muniqi- non Muniqi issue.
Through innuendo, on this thread, I think the Muniqi blood is associated with the Turkomen horse. And is that cross which was seen in the Muniqi strain some how seen as undesirable, at least by some folks?
And so what were those characteristics?
And did the Muniqi not really reach into the Nejd as much, more along northern borders - more racing types, maybe bigger? picked up by the Polish for their calvary/driving work? Were their personality characteristics different also?
I just don't the influences which would cause a person or people to value or not value Muniqi blood.
If someone could direct me to a link that would tell me all about this issue - that would be great.
Or if you know what pages in Forbis' Blue or Gold book- I've got those. I've also go Dr. Nagal's book on Hanan.
Or if you can just write it out right here, of course that would be fantastic!
Thanks, jb
*



here's a list of strains as Raswan accounts for them.
this image is from Raswan's The Black Tents of Arabia (my life amongst the Bedouins, too which I noted the following please note:
within Raswan's Strain Chart he lists the Mu'niqi strain as BROWN not black, as commonly referred to. However, Raswan does suggest this strain "should never be allowed to mix with the others."
(handwritten on this image by Raswan's own hand). You will aslo note that Raswan defines the Mu'niqi type as speed: coarse, long lines, race horses. This combination is still ratified today by some. Although in Joe's journeys which he shares via the Al Khamsa site, it can be clearly seen that this is an unjust generalisation for the Mu'niqi strain name.

Klynstra quotes Raswan:
MU'NIQI -Speed. Long, narrow racehorse, strongly resembles the English Thoroughbred. Often coarse and common. Not at all classic type. Sloping croup, tail low set. Splendid legs.

QUOTE
A naturalized American writer, Carl Raswan, but who is not of Oriental origin, who recently published a book on Arabia, has also fallen into the quick-sands. Though he begins by giving us three strains instead of the mythical five, he not only assigns three opposite types to them, but actually includes the generic term Kehilan as one of them, with a warning that it must not be crossed with the others. This is like saying that no Thoroughbred should be crossed with the Matchem or Herod strain!

He then proceeds to give us a quite fantastic table of the relative incompatibility of strains in which he is unable to resist the glamour of the "Prophet's Five," which reappear in full force backed up by another Dinari Five! and the bar sinister of the Managhi strain is delineated in warning black!

There is not the faintest truth in the assertion that the Managhi strain "taints" the pure Arab strains, for it is as pure as the rest; or that it is "coarse" or ugly or is speedier or taller, for it is the same as the rest #1

#1 It is interesting to note that while asserting the black origin of this strain, bred from an unknown Kadish mare, he later speaks of this same strain being kept "pure'. in one family, Purity cannot be claimed for a mongrel strain.


He admits, and in fact boasts, that his sources of information are not from the desert tribes, as indeed we guessed, and his stories certainly bear the "suburban" stamp of the borderland towns; but the climax is surely reached when he claims for them "an especial value because they could not have originated among the simple nomads of the desert," and had he not told us he had been to Arabia, anyone might have concluded that, like some others, he had gone no farther than Syria or Irak.

The story of Mu'niqi (correct spelling, Managhi) is decidedly one of those which has no place in desert tradition; what he calls the "new and flowery magic carpet placed under the feet of the Arab steed by the fervour of religious leaders and the wealth and splendour of the Prophet, Sultans, Shahs, and Indian Maharajahs" is altogether too new and flowery for serious consideration. It belongs to what Lady Anne Blunt called "the atmosphere of romantic fable, spurious tradition dressed up in the garments of a new religion."

From the chapter named : The Great Myth

Lady Wentworth, The Authentic Arabian Horse and His Descendants: Three Voices Concerning the Horses of Arabia; Tradition (Nejd, Inner East); Romantic Fable (Islam); The Outside World of the West. Third Edition - 1979 First Published 1945; Second Edition 1962. If you would like to read this in context and more about this strain name ... Webpage
It must, however, always be remembered that there was a bitter battle of strong wills between Carl Schmidt aka Raswan and Lady Wentworth.


To top it all off - the mu'niqi strain, like all other strains, represents nothing more than a naming protocol smile.gif Physical attributes are relative to the gene pool. All history is but a snap-shot in time wink.gif
JacqueB
Well Diane,
I discovered you edit - thanks. Part of it is challenging me like a physics problem or actually literature - I was better at physics than literature ..
Back to the problem of understanding at hand.
To quote you -"The genetic history of the asil horse itself was not known, or by comparison, extremely limited therefore what its genetic background held in store for future generations would be found out only by the practice of breeding[/I], I'm with you "[i]and somewhat western understanding. You'll have to be more specific. " [[B]i]The immediate families from the desert and/or Egypt bred differently.[/i][/b] So that somewhat closed population of desert/Egyptian horses were different within their own population? If strains were a genetic power and were so incredibly resilient, these differences would not have happened. So you are saying that the strains would have stayed true to character and not showed the variety/differences that was seen within this closed desert/Egyptian population? There wouldn't have been family differences from the first asil imports. If the strains would have stayed true to character we should have see that in the first asil imports, but what you are saying is that was not the case, their strain did not necessarily describe their characteristics?
Am I catching on to what you are saying?
jb[/I]
JacqueB
Thanks Diane,
So the Mu'niqi is associated with the body style of a TB and not "classic Arabian type".
And that's why folks would prefer one or the other - the Arab racing fan a Mu'niqi and those that treasure that unique Arabian look the non-Mu'niqi blood.
You are a jewel for going to the trouble and time of getting this information posted.
Thank you so much. I looked up the other day where you are located in Australia - looks like it might have a better climate than Sydney.
Thanks again,
jb
Kimberli Nelson
Thank you Diane,

Having been involved with the Arabian horse for many, many years and reading everything that has been written, visited many farms and shows over the last 30 years one learns a thing or two.

When I first discovered that there were more than one name for the Arabian I was dumbfounded. You mean there are Egyptian, Blue List, BLUE STAR, Spanish, Polish, Al Khamsa, Russian, Crabbet, English, Babson, Davenport, AND them Kuhaylan, Hadban, Saklawi, Abayan, Dahman, Muniqi, and all the other spellings and families, then all the farms and their definition of the Arabian. OH MY GOSH! What have I gotten into?????

But I studied, I listened, I learned and found my own way and belief system. Much of it was not scientific but through observation. I could see the subtle difference between strains or families if you will. I could see the difference between a Bint Bint Sabbah and a Farida, Dahman. I could see the difference between a Zaafarana and a Moniet, Saklawi. I could see the difference between the horses that were the old RAS breeding and that of the newly added Inshass horses.

I had a hard time with the *Maaroufa horses as they did not breed like a Kuhaylan they bred like a Saklawi. It was strange that when you bred them together for a couple of generations they got longer and taller and more stretchy, just like the Zaafarana horses. Only to find later that they were the same mtDNN of the Ghaziha line of horses like Zaafarana. Then when I started to study the Rodans I found them to breed like the Hadbans. Which is that the mares take on more of the stallions look than the mares. Only to later learn that the Hadbans and the Rodans are of same family! The very same mtDNA...as well

The history of the Arabian horse is confusing at best and the written should never be taken as undeniable anything. We have more to learn.
Seglavi
Kim,
You said an eloquent mouthful! Go girl! There is nothing better than a fine student top dressing their education with breeding experience and a good discriminating eye.
I am following this thread with great interest, keep it coming.
Pam
diane
smile.gif my pleasure. Its slippery thwang to catch. It helped me to understand the biology and kinesiology (the mechanics of motion with respect to anatomy) of the horse first wink.gif At this point, I would like to emphasise (mho) that strains and body types are not categorically the same ie they are not interchangeable. For me, strains are a form of shorthand and as such should be used as a tool as like any other form of pedigree reference. “Strains” are not blood, they are names. The euphemism of strains has highlighted that there are differences within the Breed. These differences are truly biological ie they are skeletal etc. The strength and weaknesses (without being faulty) of the genes are what allows the varied differences. As Kimberly examples, this is where the somewhat misfortune lies when associating strain names (a naming protocol) with gene-related attributes ~ there’s no guarantee of a match ie they are not interchangeable.

Confounded by the use of strain names and compounded by the physical differences, the early writers suggested that there were many races of the Arabian as a Breed! The asil and/or the al khamsa notation seemed to be the consolidating terminology for these authors. As Mutlak was apparently to express often to Lady Blunt – they are all the same, they are all Koheilan (or words to that effect). This was after Lady Blunt had written a book or two on the Breed.

I do believe that the terms masculine type and feminine type (regardless of gender) would be more representative when referring to differences within the breed. Using strain names leads to confusion as the names don’t allow for total portrayal of type consistency. Genetics and the resulting phenotype (the unique visible form of each individual’s genotype) are the factors which dictate what the variances will be/are. The consistency (or not) of type will be the result of the strengths / weaknesses of the genes per individual mating, not by the strain names.

Phenotype may represent one (or a limited) number of types within the individual’s genetics. Breed this individual to a genetically stronger partner of a different type and differences could appear in the resulting foal(s). How the foals are bred on ie which choices are made as their partners (masculine or feminine in type) may solidify some traits (good and/or bad). The definition of good and bad is truly a personal preference (with the exception of an absolute debilitating conformational fault) – OR the breeder’s observance of the pressure to conform to nominated standards other than those of the original breeders, the nomadic Bedouin.

Therefore, in its singular form classic Arabian type is a furphy and type (singular) should be understood to relate to many types. To breed asil (including strain naming) is supposedly breeding to original nomadic Bedouin breeding practices not purely modern standards, which would include the allowance of and for variety.

Using Louis L Mann’s words: The past is always present in the future sums up breeding quite well.

For the above reasons, I’m hesitant to confirm your assumptions. However, in an effort to help understand (perhaps) what you have perceived so far...

So the Mu'niqi is associated with the body style of a TB and not "classic Arabian type". > Per Raswan’s written thoughts – yes.

And that's why folks would prefer one or the other - the Arab racing fan a Mu'niqi and those that treasure that unique Arabian look the non-Mu'niqi blood. > Yes (relating to these parameters only in context with the above)

Its worth remembering that the initial foray (or two) into the Arabian Peninsula by the Blunts was to find the source of the TB in order to obtain individuals to improve on TB in the UK. However, to their dismay, their importations, while improving their stock did not enhance their speed capabilities. Their venture was then converted to obtaining individuals as Arabians and breeding them on in their own right.

My thoughts smile.gif
BeckyHuffman
QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 16 2007, 11:46 PM)
Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
*


Hi Teresa,

I saw the question and thought I might be able to answer a few questions.

*waves to JoeF and a couple other familiar faces*

Lots of good things have already been said, but I'd also like to direct you here:
http://www.bluearabianhorsecatalog.org/

many of the pages are in need of updating, but ..ummm.. here: http://www.bluearabianhorsecatalog.org/BAHCarticles.htm and click on the prologue and the articles links to see copies of the original articles from the Blue Catalog and Supplements. I always think it's helpful to be able to read the articles directly instead of generations-later discussion based on someone else's interp of what someone else thought. blink.gif

** changing hats **

It's my understanding, in the Muniqi issue, that there were rumors that a/some impure horses were mixed back in to a Muniqi herd and Miss Ott "starred" the horses in the Blue List (with a "*") that had no record of Muniqi blood in order to allow future breeders to error on the side of caution.

I lot of mean things have been said about various horses over the years - and I don't enter that debate. But I do know I like what I have and will continue breeding within the group in order to keep reproducing them.

I've been riding BLUE STARS since the 80s and raising them almost as long. ...still a newbie compared to many of the members here, but I'll be happy to answer what questions I can about my group.


Becky
BeckyHuffman
>>Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue' concept is past its sell-by date.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

I'm producing horses that are both high performance and fantastic kid and family horses.

We ride AERC Endurance and do Cowboy Mounted Shooting. We've dabbled in dressage and did SCA-eq(axe, lance, bow) and 4-h for years. I've used my top endurance horses as kid lesson horses and used them for writers' workshops, and all kinds of demos for both kids and adults. The majority of my sales are to high-performance homes or to first-time owners.

I'm not sure how the concept of that kind of using horse goes out of date.

Becky
anitae
Hello to all who have the courage to enter into this topic, which shows how a seemingly simple question can lead elsewhere.

Joe, wonderful post. I hope more breeders will come to understand the cultural aspect of "conserving" the descendents of the original Bedouin horses.

I wonder what people really expect from DNA? It won't be able to "prove" purity, and I don't think that is the point of most conservationists.

Rather, if we accept that the Bedouin bred the horses -- incorporating whatever horses according to their own practices, then our role may be to breed from those bloodlines (with, I would advocate with Joe, consideration for some Western adaptation of Bedouin cultural traditions). The BLUE STARS constitute a specific "core" (genetically sometimes called a silo) of asil bloodlines available in the west. Traditionally, conservationists have been devoted to perpetuating the silos.

For me, the question is, where do we go from here? Will we have the courage to blend bloodlines as the Bedouin (and the Pashas) did?

Anita
diane
QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 04:40 PM)
For me, the question is, where do we go from here? Will we have the courage to blend bloodlines as the Bedouin (and the Pashas) did?
Anita
*


From here... my thoughts / personal sentiments - keep within the culture of the nomadic Bedouin ie maintaining asil, focus on and breed for a functional horse. Not necessarily a standardised horse.

unsure.gif thought that blending of bloodlines (within asil) is being done?
JacqueB
Good Morning Diane,
It's extremely valuable to me that you are so precise and thorough in your explanations. As I was getting ready for bed last night I was thinking that my comments did not really reflect a thorough understanding of the links & explanations that you offered and only described the broadest terms and not necessarily real terms for any specific situation as generalizations often do.
I've really enjoyed discovering on the forum the more complex situation & mysteries related to the development of the desert/Egyptian Arabian horse or really any horse history, being in the main a history buff.
And it's very exciting to get confirmation that breeding for function is always the bottom line. Although, in my little world I would have to say that temperament is on parallel or higher than function. I can find a good home or would enjoy riding a horse that might not be bound for high end work if it's got a good mind. Whereas, maybe a highly talented horse that had the spirit that scared the beegeebees out of me - I need to find a Phillip Dutton to ride, I don't really want to go there.
But so far I haven't had to chose temperament at the expense of function.
To my delight, the SE's I've brought along under saddle have been very straight forward and exceeded or at least met my standards for behavior, tacking up, on the trail, in the ring.
Thanks again for taking the time to share.
Jacque
JoeFerriss
JacqueB, I want to thank you for your original question about Blue Star and Blue list as it has produced a wonderfully enlightening discussion and I think the body of your question has been well handled. I chose to speak only about the bigger picture because in any situation when we start dividing up the elements of a recipe it is also important to not lose focus on the flavor of what finally comes out of the oven.

So how does this thread tie into Egyptian breeding? Getting back to the "recipe" part of the discussion, perhaps you have already looked at the relationship to the Maneghi strain in Egyptian breeding. I won't delineate all the sources here because it is more fun to do the ancestral searches yourself. In most cases the sources of the Maneghi strain in Egyptian breeding come from highly regarded individuals such as the splendid Blunt acquired desert bred mare Queen of Sheba, whose sire is Maneghi-Hadruj and dam is Abayyah Sharrakiyah. She is now almost unversally throughout Egyptian breeding both in the "old" and "new." She is also theorized by some writers as being a prime source of the black color in Egyptian breeding.

So for academic curiosity who are some of the horses imported to the US from Egypt who did NOT have known lines to the Maneghi strain? There were a number of them though not all have come forward into today's Egyptian breeding. Forgive me if I miss any but, those Egyptian imports identified in the Blue Catalog, who exist in TODAY's straight Egyptian breeding are: *Shahwan, *Ghazala (1896), *Exochorda, *Maaroufa, *Nasr, and *Fadl. (*Nasr, *Exochorda, and *Fadl are prominent in the Blue Star breeding group.) There are also two other Egyptian imports to the US found in today's straight Egyptians who have no recorded Maneghi in their pedigrees, but their importation came after the Blue Catalog ceased publishing updates. So their "Blue Star" category will have to be a matter of whether they receive that official designation from the Catalog's author. Perhaps this has been now done, I do not know. These two are *Ibn Hafiza and *Serenity Bint Nadia. In the early 1970s a man in Texas who owned some excellent straight Egyptians and also some excellent Blue Star mares, decided to breed the Blue Star mares to *Ibn Hafiza, so his blood is found in a small but exceptional breeding group of horses of Blue Star breeding.

Regardless of whether "with or without" Maneghi is a consideration, I often thought how it would have been fortunate for the future to have bred *Ibn Hafiza to *Serenity Bint Nadia for several times but, alas, it was not to be. The other main value in this mating would be to produce straight Egyptians who, for outcross purposes, did not carry any lines to the Blunt acquired desert breds which are so prevalent worldwide. I am sure they are prevalent for good reason, but if we could turn back the clock knowing what we know now, we would have had a few more opportunities for preserving a kind of fragile diversity we once had.
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