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HLM
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 11:49 PM) *
It is a fact that the Blue Catalog has been used as a referece source at the EAO for many years, but that has been posted several times in the past. Both myself and Marilyn Lang saw this first hand...as it was presented to us as one of the best sources available anywhere by a past Director at the EAO, who had recently retired after forty years of dedicated service.



and where do you get these facts from? In 1998 they never heard of it, my visit with Sh Lulua Al Sabah.
And I never heard my friend Dr Zaghloul mention it either or referring to it. Matter of fact some of the "elders"
of some tribes never heard of L Blunt either. I guess this is Dr Khali;s version of facts?
Enlighten us, please. But they do have my Straight Egyptian Index and various 7 generation pedigrees of their famous stallions hanging on the wall. Actually Dr Khalil has one too, which I donated to the eAO.

I dont like exagerations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hansi
Caryn Rogosky
Sorry, double posting.
Caryn Rogosky
1998 was a long tme ago...time does not stand still. My facts come from the original source; they were acquired first hand from discussion and observation, while sitting at the EAO and asking about certain lines -- and seeing the Blue Catalog being referenced for information. I'm sorry, but I did not see any copies of your Straight Egyptian Index volumes there, neither in the office nor in the library although we spent many hours scouring the shelves. That's not to say they weren't there, but if they were, they weren't evident.
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 04:05 PM) *
(snipped) Look how you tried to tell me what I should have done or do, issuing insults. Of course I am asking, what you have done to assist. All of us can do only so much and cant please them all.
I agree Hansi and also would like to see what Ralph has done as a breeder.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 10:25 PM) *
Sorry, Ralph, but it sounded to me like you were off on a rant about people being "misinformed". My point was that you are also in that category, that of presenting wrong, or biased, information.

KW Ammon's "Historical Reports on Arab Horse Breeding" is one of my sources. He published his collection of material as a book in 1834 - the same year that Darwin was sailing around in HMS Beagle. So his "historical" perspective goes back to the 1600's. You might be interested in obtaining this book.

If we are going to "blame" someone for not appreciating the non-Blunt "Egyptians", then we are going to have to start with J.M. Dickinson. The first thing he did with *Nasr (100% Egypt I) was to breed him to Baribeh (48.4% Blunt). What we have to remember is that the early breeders did not think in terms of "Blunt", or "Egypt I, II, or any of the other categories we have now. They thought in terms of them being able to be traced to authentic desert-breds in all lines. They thought in terms of producing horses that could be ridden all day and all night, if need be.


I have to disagree because it was Dickinson who bred Zarife to Roda, to produce Hallany Mistanny.

Hallany Mistanny was 100% Egyptian, non-Blunt desert bred.
2mntn
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 04:11 PM) *
Hi Ray

what I will never understand why many are supressing the talents/qualities these SE/Asils have by NOT testing.
When we look at the ancestors of many, have their performance records (racing) have records as to what earlier imports to here have done and some are still doing (Babsons, Davenports,Doyles,Pritzlaff,etc) and what the desert countries still do in testing (flat racing, endurance, etc) as do the Polish,Spanish,english etc. countries.

I often mentioned "Man O' War"who has a full brother called "Miracle" who could not do a thing.
This can happen in any line, this is why one tests. Even in one's own herd, seeing the weanlings etc running, competing gives clues.Some are closely related.
This also covers attitude,courage and overall behavior.

If we continue only referring to books, what will we be elad to?

Take care
hansi


Hi Hansi,

I always have to smile when you bring in the topic of performance. Of course performance is, or should be, of prime consideration to breeders. However, how short would the Blue Star list be if Ott's had only included horses whose performance achievements were as stellar as their pedigrees?

Discussing "labels" and history from the books is an exercise in learning about foundations. Breeding methodologies (philosophy) which includes selection criteria beyond the pedigree is another topic. smile.gif
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 10:25 PM) *
Sorry, Ralph, but it sounded to me like you were off on a rant about people being "misinformed". My point was that you are also in that category, that of presenting wrong, or biased, information.

KW Ammon's "Historical Reports on Arab Horse Breeding" is one of my sources. He published his collection of material as a book in 1834 - the same year that Darwin was sailing around in HMS Beagle. So his "historical" perspective goes back to the 1600's. You might be interested in obtaining this book.

If we are going to "blame" someone for not appreciating the non-Blunt "Egyptians", then we are going to have to start with J.M. Dickinson. The first thing he did with *Nasr (100% Egypt I) was to breed him to Baribeh (48.4% Blunt). What we have to remember is that the early breeders did not think in terms of "Blunt", or "Egypt I, II, or any of the other categories we have now. They thought in terms of them being able to be traced to authentic desert-breds in all lines. They thought in terms of producing horses that could be ridden all day and all night, if need be.


Ray, no rant but yes, people were intentionally misinformed about the Inshass horses for many years. Ask Hansi to explain it to you.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 11:58 PM) *
Ralph, I prevented you from being ar researcher?

I thought you did a lot of it during the past decades, as you mentioned, unless I misunderstood you.
this is why I asked if you had any data on Habeeba at all. May be someone else has, I cant find anything of her parents.

Hansi


Yes, the brutality and intensity of all of those Exochorda discussions convinced me that the last thing I ever wanted to be was a researcher.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 10:35 PM) *
Ralph's depth of knowledge on Egyptian Arabian horse bloodlines is remarkable, and so noted by some of the most respected scholars of our time.
Ralph was kind enough to donate a booklet, compiled of his articles and photos from his blog, to Al Khamsa for the live autction held at the convention in September. Joe Ferriss was the highest bidder and winner.There were others bidding who were very eager to have it as well, but it was very evident that Joe was quite dertermined and the other bidders backed off. Ralph, you should consider that a well deserved tribute to your many, many years of study and dedication to the Egyptian Arabian horse.


Thank you so much Caryn, for all that you said.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Feb 19 2012, 10:46 PM) *
Yup.....I was one of the bidders who backed off.......would love it if Ralph could do a reprint of that, because I would still love to have a copy


Thank you so much Cathy for all that you said.
2mntn
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 06:03 PM) *
I have to disagree because it was Dickinson who bred Zarife to Roda, to produce Hallany Mistanny.

Hallany Mistanny was 100% Egyptian, non-Blunt desert bred.


..and it was also Dickinson who was willing to basically give Hallany Mistanny away for two hundred bucks..

Hindsight is always advantageous. wink.gif

Hallany Mistanny was a pure-in-the-strain Saqlawi Jidran of Ibn Sudan. His grandsires were both Kuhaylan Mimri - one of them was the sire of Nazeer. His four sire lines (grandparents) alternate between Jamil El Kebir on top and Saqlawi I on the bottom to Saklawi I on the top and Jamil El Kebir on the bottom. I don't see that Dickinson had a real understanding or appreciation of the genius behind the breeding of this horse. Neither can we see this genius by saying "100% Egyptian". We have to look at the breeding from the DESERT perspective to see how the families (strains) were used to create this horse.
2mntn
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 07:31 AM) *
I read through some of the comments and at first, I was annoyed with the careless ignorance that some are showing; unaware that others reading, might be absorbing and in the future, will remember as "truth" about our horses.


OK - so you DID say the above..relating to people on THIS topic, nothing to do with Inshass. I don't need to have Hansi explain the "Inshass stigma". I know about it.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 20 2012, 01:33 AM) *
OK - so you DID say the above..relating to people on THIS topic, nothing to do with Inshass. I don't need to have Hansi explain the "Inshass stigma". I know about it.


I object to the comment that the Blue Catalog is irrelevant, because it was unfinished. That's how this whole thing started. But you didn't make this comment, so, what business is it to you anyway?
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 20 2012, 01:27 AM) *
..and it was also Dickinson who was willing to basically give Hallany Mistanny away for two hundred bucks..

Hindsight is always advantageous. wink.gif

Hallany Mistanny was a pure-in-the-strain Saqlawi Jidran of Ibn Sudan. His grandsires were both Kuhaylan Mimri - one of them was the sire of Nazeer. His four sire lines (grandparents) alternate between Jamil El Kebir on top and Saqlawi I on the bottom to Saklawi I on the top and Jamil El Kebir on the bottom. I don't see that Dickinson had a real understanding or appreciation of the genius behind the breeding of this horse. Neither can we see this genius by saying "100% Egyptian". We have to look at the breeding from the DESERT perspective to see how the families (strains) were used to create this horse.


Hallany Mistanny is 100% Egypt 1, the ancestral element defined by Al Khamsa for all the horses imported into Egypt before 1900.

Zarife, his sire, was by Ibn Samhan, an RAS horse. His dam, Mahroussa came from the Prince's stud farm, Manial. The sire line of Zarife are primarily horses bred by Prince Ahmed Pasha Kemal, going all the way back to the late 1800's. On the dam side, we have the Prince's breeding all the way back to 1895 - 1900, farther than that, you are lookimg at foundation horses from the stable of Ali Pasha Sherif or Abbas Pasha.

Roda was by Mansour, the same sire of Nazeer and she was also out of Negma, the dam of Zarife's dam. So, basically, the same situation as above, horses that trace all the way back to the mid 1800's and the stud of Abbas Pasha.

So, we can say with a fair amount of certainty, that for over 200 years, these horses were bred in Egypt and maybe, longer than that. So, I stand by what I said, that Hallany Mistanny is a 100% Egyptian horse, authentic to Egypt.

I dont' know why Dickinson bred these horses together, but I am glad that he did.

As for the insinuation that you made regardihg the quality of the horse and the "two hundred bucks", the horse belonged to the General's daughter. He was a wedding present. I believe (off the top of my head) that it was wartime and the General figured that his daughter didn't need the horse, so he sold him. But that doesn't mean that the horse was inferior, as a matter of fact Hallany Mistanny appeared in the Travelers Rest catalog, described as a "strinking " horse. So, to me and because of the pics that I have seen, the horse must have really been something...a treasure of Egypt in America.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 10:54 PM) *
Thanks Ralph, I understand. But dont you think that preservations starts with what a horse and its line has done or can do, or is doing? How can we preserve something which is not being used for what it was bred for and just wasted?


BTW. how is Mrs Rose?

Hansi


Well Hansi, you had and Knew Ibn Hafiza. Are you saying that he had to be further tested before continuing to use him at stud. Because I really don't understand what you are saying. He had no Blunt desert breeding and was an excellent horse under saddle. Some of the daughters he sired were amazing mares...is this not enough? What other credentials must a horse earn?

Ms. Rose is fine. I left her at 7, after feeding her and switching her sheet for a heavier blanket. She is 24 years old, healthy and looking half her age. I have owned her for 18 years.

Ralph
vclink
Hansi, Ray, Ralph, Liz, Kathy, Caryn...It's Groundhog Day! Yes, It's Groundhog Day! I never thought I would see this day again.

ph34r.gif For those who don't understand this reference, go rent the Bill Murray movie. LOL!



2mntn
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 06:47 PM) *
I object to the comment that the Blue Catalog is irrelevant, because it was unfinished. That's how this whole thing started. But you didn't make this comment, so, what business is it to you anyway?


Your "objection" looked fairly general in nature to me, as I didn't notice anything specific like this new comment. I agree with your "restated" objection. In theory, the Blue Catalog would never be "finished", as long as horses are being born which fit the description. The Blue Catalog would be irrelevant to those who do not understand the basis of the work done. That said, the Blue Catalog is not something I feel is necessary for me to have at hand, because the online resources of Al Khamsa and AHA's Datasource cover all the same material and are both online. Plus, I don't feel that the distinction of the "Mu'niqi" is entirely correct, or even worthwhile to try to keep track of.
MHuprich
QUOTE (vclink @ Feb 19 2012, 09:29 PM) *
Hansi, Ray, Ralph, Liz, Kathy, Caryn...It's Groundhog Day! Yes, It's Groundhog Day! I never thought I would see this day again.

ph34r.gif For those who don't understand this reference, go rent the Bill Murray movie. LOL!


Exactly.
2mntn
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 07:16 PM) *
....

As for the insinuation that you made regardihg the quality of the horse and the "two hundred bucks", the horse belonged to the General's daughter. He was a wedding present. I believe (off the top of my head) that it was wartime and the General figured that his daughter didn't need the horse, so he sold him. But that doesn't mean that the horse was inferior, as a matter of fact Hallany Mistanny appeared in the Travelers Rest catalog, described as a "strinking " horse. So, to me and because of the pics that I have seen, the horse must have really been something...a treasure of Egypt in America.


Any "insinuation" I made had to do with a possible lack of material between the breeder's ears, (especially since that breeding was never repeated) and had nothing to do with the horse. smile.gif

p.s. I know the story of Hallany Mistanny and how he ended up with Howie Marks.
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (vclink @ Feb 20 2012, 03:29 AM) *
Hansi, Ray, Ralph, Liz, Kathy, Caryn...It's Groundhog Day! Yes, It's Groundhog Day! I never thought I would see this day again.

ph34r.gif For those who don't understand this reference, go rent the Bill Murray movie. LOL!


I give up
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (vclink @ Feb 19 2012, 06:29 PM) *
Hansi, Ray, Ralph, Liz, Kathy, Caryn...It's Groundhog Day! Yes, It's Groundhog Day! I never thought I would see this day again.

ph34r.gif For those who don't understand this reference, go rent the Bill Murray movie. LOL!

Seems sorta like a train wreck that you can't quit watching tho........right ?
Caryn Rogosky
Amongst the most respected scholars of this breed are people who are not specifically known for what they have done as breeders -- but their contribution to the Asil Arabian horse community is immeasurable.
MHuprich
You don't have to have bred horses or trained them to be a great researcher or judge of horses. Lots of examples: Gladys Brown Edwards probably the most welll-known. Peter Cameron did not breed Arabians either and was a very well respected judge.
JoeFerriss
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Feb 19 2012, 07:36 PM) *
What is gone is gone and can only be lamented... There are small pockets of interesting and rare breeding that is being overlooked and underused..

Ralph... Did your list change a bit? The list I copied was Bint Serra I, Sirecho, Hamida, Hamama, Zarife, Roda, Aziza, Nasr, Fadl, Maaroufa, Ibn Hafiza, El Araby, Mahmouda, Mahdia...

Bint Serra I-has a blunt element... As does El Araby and Mahdia.. Hallany Mistanny was added in and is 100% Egypt... Personally, The Blue Catalogue is an incomplete work and as such at best can be looked at as a starting point...

I do think there should be a database for all these rare outcross potentials to be featured.. I believe Liz Dieter mentioned there was a Zobeyni sire line stallion in Canada... I wouldn't mind getting my hands on some more information regarding this stallion..We can only work with what is available today... Everything else is coulda, shoulda, woulda... Tracy


..as an enhancement on the above comment, the Zobeyni sire line does still exist in straight Egyptian bloodlines. I have charted it twice in articles in the Arabian Horse World and again in the newest Volume 12 of the Pyramid Society Reference Handbook. There are still a handful of stallion choices for the Zobeyni sire line but it is fragile and could be lost if not given careful consideration which would be a shame since it has long been one of the most celebrated in the Arabian breed coming down particularly from Mesaoud.

I offer the Zobeyni chart here. Please note that I think there are some younger sons of some horses listed in this chart which can also be found but these names in the attached will at least give a general overview of the sire line now and perhaps you can do your search to locate some of these horses.

Best to all,
--Joe Ferriss

Click to view attachment
JoeFerriss
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 10:35 PM) *
Ralph's depth of knowledge on Egyptian Arabian horse bloodlines is remarkable, and so noted by some of the most respected scholars of our time.
Ralph was kind enough to donate a booklet, compiled of his articles and photos from his blog, to Al Khamsa for the live autction held at the convention in September. Joe Ferriss was the highest bidder and winner.There were others bidding who were very eager to have it as well, but it was very evident that Joe was quite dertermined and the other bidders backed off. Ralph, you should consider that a well deserved tribute to your many, many years of study and dedication to the Egyptian Arabian horse.


I do admire and collect and read written works of Ralph just as I do with others such as Hansi who I believe I have all of her books. However to be accurate, when I realized that someone else also wanted very much Ralph's book in the live Auction at the Al Khamsa convention, I stopped bidding because I did not want to take away someone's opportunity to have this work.
--Joe Ferriss
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ Feb 20 2012, 12:36 PM) *
..as an enhancement on the above comment, the Zobeyni sire line does still exist in straight Egyptian bloodlines. I have charted it twice in articles in the Arabian Horse World and again in the newest Volume 12 of the Pyramid Society Reference Handbook. There are still a handful of stallion choices for the Zobeyni sire line but it is fragile and could be lost if not given careful consideration which would be a shame since it has long been one of the most celebrated in the Arabian breed coming down particularly from Mesaoud.

I offer the Zobeyni chart here. Please note that I think there are some younger sons of some horses listed in this chart which can also be found but these names in the attached will at least give a general overview of the sire line now and perhaps you can do your search to locate some of these horses.

Best to all,
--Joe Ferriss

Click to view attachment


Thanks Joe... I appreciate it...
Dieter
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 09:47 PM) *
Amongst the most respected scholars of this breed are people who are not specifically known for what they have done as breeders -- but their contribution to the Asil Arabian horse community is immeasurable.
Yes, but when Ralph accused Hansi of not doing enough to preserve *Ibn Hafiza, then he should perhaps accuse himself at the same time, particularly if he has not bred or otherwise preserved him. Don't you agree? In response to what you've written, above which had nothing to do with the context of my post:

I also disagree with your statement on some levels as I believe a good researcher doesn't just write flowery statements about every horse they decide to write about. They would be factual and be able to think critically as well as romantically. But it is difficult and not a popular thing for people to like and support researchers who will say "that National Champion or Supreme Champion has the worst legs I've ever seen" and then expand on that thought. As soon as that researcher makes that statement, everyone feels sorry for the owner of that horse and everyone gangs up against the researcher who was being honest and not flowery or romantic or otherwise bellowing sunshine where clouds exist. Most importantly, it's all good and fine to judge horses and write about them, but until you put that research to test and begin to breed them, you have no idea if the horses you are judging are all what they've been cracked up to be. So, to me, being a researcher and a breeder lends more credibility to their opinions.
Dieter
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Feb 19 2012, 10:13 PM) *
You don't have to have bred horses or trained them to be a great researcher or judge of horses. Lots of examples: Gladys Brown Edwards probably the most welll-known. Peter Cameron did not breed Arabians either and was a very well respected judge.
This may not be directed at my post, but I will say again, "Yes, but when Ralph accused Hansi of not doing enough to preserve *Ibn Hafiza, then he should perhaps accuse himself at the same time, particularly if he has not bred or otherwise preserved him." Ralph did not accuse any of his friends who have posted here and not preserving this blood, just Hansi.

What a compliment you gave Ralph by elevating him to the same category as Gladys Edwards and Pete Cameron. I would not bestow that elevated position to Ralph, though he is a somewhat successful, romantically inspired writer. That's my opinion and I believe I am entitled to it.

I also disagree with your statement on some levels as I believe a good researcher doesn't just write flowery statements about every horse they decide to write about. They would be factual and be able to think critically as well as romantically. But it is difficult and not a popular thing for people to like and support researchers who will say "that National Champion or Supreme Champion has the worst legs I've ever seen" and then expand on that thought. As soon as that researcher makes that statement, everyone feels sorry for the owner of that horse and everyone gangs up against the researcher who was being honest and not flowery or romantic or otherwise bellowing sunshine where clouds exist. Most importantly, it's all good and fine to judge horses and write about them, but until you put that research to test and begin to breed them, you have no idea if the horses you are judging are all what they've been cracked up to be. So, to me, being a researcher and a breeder lends more credibility to their opinions.
HLM
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 20 2012, 12:57 AM) *
1998 was a long tme ago...time does not stand still. My facts come from the original source; they were acquired first hand from discussion and observation, while sitting at the EAO and asking about certain lines -- and seeing the Blue Catalog being referenced for information. I'm sorry, but I did not see any copies of your Straight Egyptian Index volumes there, neither in the office nor in the library although we spent many hours scouring the shelves. That's not to say they weren't there, but if they were, they weren't evident.



Very well, I was not present at your discussions. Dr Khalil was given personally by me a complete set of my straight Egyptian Index for the EAO. Prior to that they received two sets. Possibly these ended up in some people's private library? Did you infact see a copy of the Blue Catalogue at the EAO?

While at the eAO did you have a chance to look at their herd books, starting with breeding dates of 1966?

Hansi

HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ Feb 20 2012, 02:47 PM) *
This may not be directed at my post, but I will say again, "Yes, but when Ralph accused Hansi of not doing enough to preserve *Ibn Hafiza, then he should perhaps accuse himself at the same time, particularly if he has not bred or otherwise preserved him." Ralph did not accuse any of his friends who have posted here and not preserving this blood, just Hansi.

What a compliment you gave Ralph by elevating him to the same category as Gladys Edwards and Pete Cameron. I would not bestow that elevated position to Ralph, though he is a somewhat successful, romantically inspired writer. That's my opinion and I believe I am entitled to it.

I also disagree with your statement on some levels as I believe a good researcher doesn't just write flowery statements about every horse they decide to write about. They would be factual and be able to think critically as well as romantically. But it is difficult and not a popular thing for people to like and support researchers who will say "that National Champion or Supreme Champion has the worst legs I've ever seen" and then expand on that thought. As soon as that researcher makes that statement, everyone feels sorry for the owner of that horse and everyone gangs up against the researcher who was being honest and not flowery or romantic or otherwise bellowing sunshine where clouds exist. Most importantly, it's all good and fine to judge horses and write about them, but until you put that research to test and begin to breed them, you have no idea if the horses you are judging are all what they've been cracked up to be. So, to me, being a researcher and a breeder lends more credibility to their opinions.



Hi Liz

I agree with you. Referring to Pete cameron, he is not only one of the best judges of equine, was also an ardent rider
and horseman.

Gladys Brown Edwards and I were friends for many years, and she was my guest of honor in Ocala in the 1980ties at one of my sales .
Indeed she never has been on a horse, only had a "rocking horse" as a child but was an ardent researcher, excelling with the polish lines. Poland, of course paid her, and so did Lasma, as I undersood it from her.

Of course it helps when one has driven many cars, to evaluate one or the other, just like with horses.

Liz, there is a group named "the ugly seven", and they will never stop. Its their character, and their contribution to the SE/Asils etc is very, very little, other than a lot of talk. When we go back in history we can see what original importers did, accomplished. I guess their names will always stay in the minds and be furthered on for references.
These were reputable, honest pople who gave more than they ever asked to received. Even todate we have researchers in our midth, here and abroad, who are ardent horsemen/women and contributed and sacrificed a lot.
I never once heard any of them issuing disrespectful statements or exagerated, forged or lied. They also can substantiate any statment they made, as I can. So do you. Most of all they all are able to stand corrected when new or better data is placed by some and appreciate "the messengers" rather than shooting them to protect their own motives or interest.

There is nothing wrong with being romantic, however it has to be understood in such light. However, it does not belong in the breeding shed. One should rather think that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds.

Take care
Hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Feb 19 2012, 09:47 PM) *
Seems sorta like a train wreck that you can't quit watching tho........right ?
Yes, it does. For a long time I have avoided the forums . . . years I think (Valerie FYI), but then I happened upon SE.com for no apparent reason. And I saw what I've seen for years and years - people picking and chipping away at Hansi. That's what grabbed me this time. Because even if I disagree with her, she should not be disrespected the way she has been here.

I sometimes regret having expressed an opinion, because invariably having done so will incite responses from people I otherwise would not converse with. Getting to know people like you, Caryn, Marilyn, Ralph and a few others on the forum, really has turned me off to getting to know you all better. No doubt the feeling is mutual. Yet, I cannot sit idly by watching the chronic ill-will expressed towards Hansi and for Ralph to be angry with her for not preserving *Ibn Hafiza is absolutely disgusting when he himself has done nothing in comparison. Yet here we have all this support for Ralph. It's sad.

These topics also serve a purpose in getting to know organizations and their supporters better too. This thread has at least caused me to find out who is on the BOD of Al Khamsa is - so that's helpful.
2mntn
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 20 2012, 07:09 AM) *
Hi Liz

I agree with you. Referring to Pete cameron, he is not only one of the best judges of equine, was also an ardent rider
and horseman.

Gladys Brown Edwards and I were friends for many years, and she was my guest of honor in Ocala in the 1980ties at one of my sales .
Indeed she never has been on a horse, only had a "rocking horse" as a child but was an ardent researcher, excelling with the polish lines. Poland, of course paid her, and so did Lasma, as I undersood it from her.

Of course it helps when one has driven many cars, to evaluate one or the other, just like with horses.

Liz, there is a group named "the ugly seven", and they will never stop. Its their character, and their contribution to the SE/Asils etc is very, very little, other than a lot of talk. When we go back in history we can see what original importers did, accomplished. I guess their names will always stay in the minds and be furthered on for references.
These were reputable, honest pople who gave more than they ever asked to received. Even todate we have researchers in our midth, here and abroad, who are ardent horsemen/women and contributed and sacrificed a lot.
I never once heard any of them issuing disrespectful statements or exagerated, forged or lied. They also can substantiate any statment they made, as I can. So do you. Most of all they all are able to stand corrected when new or better data is placed by some and appreciate "the messengers" rather than shooting them to protect their own motives or interest.

There is nothing wrong with being romantic, however it has to be understood in such light. However, it does not belong in the breeding shed. One should rather think that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds.

Take care
Hansi


Hi Hansi,

With regard to your comments on Glays Brown Edwards, you are sure to get some strong objections. I don't have any personal impressions, other than those gained from reading many of her articles. Andrew Steen dedicated one of his books, "Al Kamsa and the Journey to Najd, by Carlo Guarmani", to GBE. The first page of the dedication is a large photo of GBE mounted up on *Raseyn, with acknowledgement to the Arabian Horse Owners Foundation for the photo. The second page is a full-page discussion of GBE. The first paragraph is as follows: "Gladys Brown Edwards was an expert equestrienne who knew, rode and drove many of the early icons of the breed, including: *Raseyn, Abu Farwa, *Witez II, Antez, *Barakat, Rabiyat, *Iwonka III, *Nasik, Raad and *Nakkla, to name a few."

It is remarkable how different people can have different impressions of those they knew.
2mntn
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 06:27 PM) *
Hallany Mistanny was a pure-in-the-strain Saqlawi Jidran of Ibn Sudan. His grandsires were both Kuhaylan Mimri - one of them was the sire of Nazeer. His four sire lines (grandparents) alternate between Jamil El Kebir on top and Saqlawi I on the bottom to Saklawi I on the top and Jamil El Kebir on the bottom.



QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 07:16 PM) *
Hallany Mistanny is 100% Egypt 1, the ancestral element defined by Al Khamsa for all the horses imported into Egypt before 1900.

So, I stand by what I said, that Hallany Mistanny is a 100% Egyptian horse, authentic to Egypt.


Ralph, just something to think about. One of the above descriptions is about the identity of the horse. The other description is about a "label". The problem with labels is that we tend to loose track of the true identity of the horse. So many other attributes become associated with "labels", over time, that the real Arabia behind the horse is "lost in translation".
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 20 2012, 05:49 PM) *
Hi Hansi,

With regard to your comments on Glays Brown Edwards, you are sure to get some strong objections. I don't have any personal impressions, other than those gained from reading many of her articles. Andrew Steen dedicated one of his books, "Al Kamsa and the Journey to Najd, by Carlo Guarmani", to GBE. The first page of the dedication is a large photo of GBE mounted up on *Raseyn, with acknowledgement to the Arabian Horse Owners Foundation for the photo. The second page is a full-page discussion of GBE. The first paragraph is as follows: "Gladys Brown Edwards was an expert equestrienne who knew, rode and drove many of the early icons of the breed, including: *Raseyn, Abu Farwa, *Witez II, Antez, *Barakat, Rabiyat, *Iwonka III, *Nasik, Raad and *Nakkla, to name a few."

It is remarkable how different people can have different impressions of those they knew.



wOW ray/ Gladys told me then that she always wanted to own a life horse, ride or drive it, but never got one, nor was she involved in any equestrian sports..
How do these fabrications come about? Could I have misunderstood her that much, when she was guest in my house for 3 days and we discussed a lot. Matter of fact, Le Croix did not like her visiting me, and when she returned home her electric was cut off, all her food in the fridge/freezer ruined, etc.eytc. I have some correspondence with her somewhere.


Hansi
HLM
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 20 2012, 06:20 PM) *
wOW ray/ Gladys told me then that she always wanted to own a life horse, ride or drive it, but never got one, nor was she involved in any equestrian sports..
How do these fabrications come about? Could I have misunderstood her that much, when she was guest in my house for 3 days and we discussed a lot. Matter of fact, Le Croix did not like her visiting me, and when she returned home her electric was cut off, all her food in the fridge/freezer ruined, etc.eytc. I have some correspondence with her somewhere.


Hansi



CORRECTIONS - CORRECTIONS

I stated earlier that 1715 Arabians were imported to EGypt during 205-2006. I went by reg.number 5127-to 6932,and only now realize that these numbers were not in sequence.

therefore correct number of import is "210."

I was anyway amazed over my original counting.

Sorry, please note correction.

Hansi
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (Dieter @ Feb 20 2012, 02:47 PM) *
This may not be directed at my post, but I will say again, "Yes, but when Ralph accused Hansi of not doing enough to preserve *Ibn Hafiza, then he should perhaps accuse himself at the same time, particularly if he has not bred or otherwise preserved him." Ralph did not accuse any of his friends who have posted here and not preserving this blood, just Hansi.

What a compliment you gave Ralph by elevating him to the same category as Gladys Edwards and Pete Cameron. I would not bestow that elevated position to Ralph, though he is a somewhat successful, romantically inspired writer. That's my opinion and I believe I am entitled to it.

I also disagree with your statement on some levels as I believe a good researcher doesn't just write flowery statements about every horse they decide to write about. They would be factual and be able to think critically as well as romantically. But it is difficult and not a popular thing for people to like and support researchers who will say "that National Champion or Supreme Champion has the worst legs I've ever seen" and then expand on that thought. As soon as that researcher makes that statement, everyone feels sorry for the owner of that horse and everyone gangs up against the researcher who was being honest and not flowery or romantic or otherwise bellowing sunshine where clouds exist. Most importantly, it's all good and fine to judge horses and write about them, but until you put that research to test and begin to breed them, you have no idea if the horses you are judging are all what they've been cracked up to be. So, to me, being a researcher and a breeder lends more credibility to their opinions.


Dieter,

Did you read post #125?

Here's an excerpt, in case you missed it:

QUOTE
It's not Hansi's fault but she is the only one of that generation who takes the time to post and make her knowledge available, so unfortunately, she gets all of the frustration. the Serenity horses are without reproach. They are fantastic horses with some of the best tail female lines in SE breeding. Hansi has used and produced some of my favorite horses, which I had the good fortune to meet personally. Hansi has bred horses who have gone on to found families of significance all over the globe. I respect Hansi because she has first hand experience with the legendary horses of our community. As far as individual horses from the EAO go, I trust Hansi on them, no one else. She saw them and she was trained by Egon von Neindorff, as well as giving the world horses like Sonbolah, Sabra, Shahra and such.I


I respect Hansi for many reasons, some are written in the above quote.

However, i don't respect her for the years she has spent in trying to run down Exochorda. Imagine if instead of spending so much time tearing a horse down, she would have spent that time pushing key horses out from extinction. That's my gripe. Don't make a small gene pool even smaller by eliminating horses.

That's what I meant.

You have made some really outrageous statements on this forum. I really don't understand where you are coming from and what your gripes are all about.

Ralph
Dieter
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 20 2012, 07:35 PM) *
<snipped>However, i don't respect her for the years she has spent in trying to run down Exochorda. Imagine if instead of spending so much time tearing a horse down, she would have spent that time pushing key horses out from extinction. That's my gripe. Don't make a small gene pool even smaller by eliminating horses. <snipped> Ralph
First, Hansi doesn't run down Exo, she has stated many, many times that she has seen many good horses with Sirecho in the pedigree.

Second, forget about Hansi and since you are so concerned, what have YOU done to preserve horses from "extinction"? For you to say " Imagine if instead of spending so much time tearing a horse down, she would have spent that time pushing key horses out from extinction" is like saying "Imagine if Ralph instead of spending so much time writing blogs about horses, would have spent that time pushing key horses out from extinction". My point is, Ralph spends his time the way Ralph wants to. Hansi spends her time the way Hansi wants to. That's just the way it is, isn't it. For you to even hint that you are justified in being disrespectful towards Hansi for not spending her time the way you want her to is, indeed, outrageous.

Third, no one is eliminating Exo or her SE descendants from the SE gene pool. What would make you level that allegation at Hansi?
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ Feb 20 2012, 01:57 PM) *
I do admire and collect and read written works of Ralph just as I do with others such as Hansi who I believe I have all of her books. However to be accurate, when I realized that someone else also wanted very much Ralph's book in the live Auction at the Al Khamsa convention, I stopped bidding because I did not want to take away someone's opportunity to have this work.
--Joe Ferriss


Joe, I did not want to miss the opportunity to express my appreciation for all that you said. Thanks so much.

Ralph
HLM
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 21 2012, 02:35 AM) *
Dieter,

Did you read post #125?

Here's an excerpt, in case you missed it:



I respect Hansi for many reasons, some are written in the above quote.

However, i don't respect her for the years she has spent in trying to run down Exochorda. Imagine if instead of spending so much time tearing a horse down, she would have spent that time pushing key horses out from extinction. That's my gripe. Don't make a small gene pool even smaller by eliminating horses.

That's what I meant.

You have made some really outrageous statements on this forum. I really don't understand where you are coming from and what your gripes are all about.

Ralph



Ralph, again you are making statements which are wrong. I never torn any horse down, simply reported or asked for missing data. It was not I who started the mess, but your buddies for obvious reasons in 1995. While I spent time on the issue, it was/is only a fraction of my usual 16-18 hour work seven days a week for decades.

Who elimated the horse? Who put it into dispairs (the label)? If you want to critize than at least be honest and fair and not jump to your own conclusions, but put the blame on those protecting their bank accounts. Nobody ever critisized the horses, only the LABEL. If you still cant see this or recocknize the motive, so be it.

What outragous statements have I made? Why did you not question it for further explanation?

However, Ralph I am used to your posts and always try to understand, which is not always easy.

Hansi
sgarabians
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 20 2012, 01:50 PM) *
Very well, I was not present at your discussions. Dr Khalil was given personally by me a complete set of my straight Egyptian Index for the EAO. Prior to that they received two sets. Possibly these ended up in some people's private library? Did you infact see a copy of the Blue Catalogue at the EAO?

While at the eAO did you have a chance to look at their herd books, starting with breeding dates of 1966?

Hansi


With abject apologies to Oscar Wilde for the creative licence - but no doubt he could appreciate the humour.

To lose one ..., Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune. To lose both looks like carelessness.

But to have lost THREE sir - might appear downright intentional!
2mntn
The division between Blue Star and Blue List was based upon the assertion that a certain tribe crossed their pure Ma’naqi with Turcoman, thus contaminating the strain. However, based upon recorded historical events, it takes a very big stretch of the imagination to believe that horses of the Ma’naqi strain were the only ones to have ever been crossed with another breed, such as Turcoman or Kurdish. In the early 1800’s, it is noted that some 3,000 horses a year were being sold in the markets of Damascus, Basra, Baghdad and Allepo, and that less than half, probably as low as a third of that number were Arabians of noble (pure Nejd) strain. It is inconceivable that all of those cross-bred horses would have been from the Ma’naqi strain only, and makes it clear that “impurity” could have been introduced in any of the strains, although it is not likely to have happened with the Nejd Arabs.

Raswan (and therefore the Ott’s) put the stigma of impurity on the Mu’niqi (Ma’naqi) strain only, bolstering his claim with the phenotype he attributed to that strain as being further proof of the impurity. Therefore, any horse with documented Mu’niqi (Ma’naqi) went in the Blue List. If Raswan had associated the Ma’naqi strain with certain tribes known to have had them, then we should see many more horses being Blue Listed, since any tribe known to have had the strain would have produced offspring from them, placing them squarely in the “impure” category. This would have eliminated most of the horses of the Nejd. It would appear that Raswan used existing documentation done by others (such as Blunts) and drew from his personal background living with the Ruala in generating documentation for each individual in his Index.

Even a cursory examination of an individual horse will illustrate the fallacy in the proposition that Ma’naqi could be isolated as a sub-group. I decided to trace a couple of Blue List horses, prominent in SE bloodlines, to see if I could find any clues to explain the Raswan (and Ott) logic. I started with Anter’s (1946) pedigree. His sire, Hamdan is listed as Blue Star, so no need to follow that line as the Ma’naqi must be from his dam. Looking at Anter’s dam’s sire, Mekdam, I found he traces to Queen of Sheba. The following data is from Al Khamsa’s website:

Queen of Sheba – 1875 - By a Ma'naqi Hudruji of Ibn Jufayfi [Qufayfah] of the Qumusah Saba'ah out of an 'Ubayyah Sharrakiyah. A brown 'Ubayyah Sharrakiyah bred by "Erheyen" Ibn 'Aliyan of the Qumusah section of the Saba'ah tribe.

Well, there it is, by a Ma’naqi Hudrujii – making it obvious to me where (at least some of) the Ma’naqi was coming from in Anter’s pedigree and explaining why he was Blue Listed. This entry is helpful in that the documentation also gives the tribe name.

Nazeer is also Blue List, so I traced his pedigree. No need to go too far, as I found the following on AK’s website:

Om Dalal (1898) Her sire "Sabah the Maanagi," her dam "fleabitten grey mare daughter of Roga the Saklawieh Jedrani."

I also found this horse in Nazeer’s pedigree: Maanagia Hadragia (1880) Maanagia Hadragia's son Sabbah as an unnamed grey Ma'naqi Hudruji stallion of the marbat of Ibn Sbayyli (or Ma'naqi Sbaili), his dam the Ma'naqiyah Sbailiyah "brought from Arabia to the Tihawis [the Tahawi tribe in Egypt] from whom Ahmed Pasha took her." (by this we know that Ibn Sbayyli had Ma’naqi at his place, and that some went to the Tahawi and also to Ahmed Pasha. We should then expect to find Ma’naqi bloodlines in horses coming from any of those sources).

Staying with Nazeer’s pedigree I found: Dajania (1876) : A Kuhaylat 'Ajuz of the Da'janiyah family (or Kuhaylah Da'janiyah) bred by Muhammad Pasha, a Turkmen chief, who had stolen her dam from the Saba'ah. There is no Ma’naqi documented with this horse - she is a Kuhaylat ‘Ajuz. What the documentation does NOT tell us is anything about her sire. Since she came from the Saba’ah, whom we know had the Ma’naqi strain from the previous documentation on Queen of Sheba, how are we to know that Dajania was not BY a Ma’naqi, or that she did not have a Ma’naqi somewhere in her bloodline?

The same could be said for Ghazieh (1850) A Saqlawiyah Jidraniyah of the marbat of Ibn Sudan. Again, there is no mention of her sire, so what strain was he? I find this note on the AK website: the Saqlawi marbat of Ibn Sudan has a tribal affiliation of Saba'ah. With this tribal affiliation in mind, could we safely conclude that horses coming from Ibn Sudan might contain some of the Saba'ah Ma’naqi bloodlines? It is entirely possible that Ghazieh was by a Ma’naqi, or had one in her bloodline. It is just not DOCUMENTED either way.

There are many horses, straight from the desert, whose documentation is like that of Ghazieh, and only describes the dam’s family name. With this in mind, it becomes easier to see why the proposition that a distinction between no Ma’naqi (Blue Star) and some Ma’naqi (Blue List) is really an impossible position to maintain.
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 21 2012, 08:47 PM) *
The division between Blue Star and Blue List was based upon the assertion that a certain tribe crossed their pure Ma’naqi with Turcoman, thus contaminating the strain. However, based upon recorded historical events, it takes a very big stretch of the imagination to believe that horses of the Ma’naqi strain were the only ones to have ever been crossed with another breed, such as Turcoman or Kurdish. In the early 1800’s, it is noted that some 3,000 horses a year were being sold in the markets of Damascus, Basra, Baghdad and Allepo, and that less than half, probably as low as a third of that number were Arabians of noble (pure Nejd) strain. It is inconceivable that all of those cross-bred horses would have been from the Ma’naqi strain only, and makes it clear that “impurity” could have been introduced in any of the strains, although it is not likely to have happened with the Nejd Arabs.

Raswan (and therefore the Ott’s) put the stigma of impurity on the Mu’niqi (Ma’naqi) strain only, bolstering his claim with the phenotype he attributed to that strain as being further proof of the impurity. Therefore, any horse with documented Mu’niqi (Ma’naqi) went in the Blue List. If Raswan had associated the Ma’naqi strain with certain tribes known to have had them, then we should see many more horses being Blue Listed, since any tribe known to have had the strain would have produced offspring from them, placing them squarely in the “impure” category. This would have eliminated most of the horses of the Nejd. It would appear that Raswan used existing documentation done by others (such as Blunts) and drew from his personal background living with the Ruala in generating documentation for each individual in his Index.

Even a cursory examination of an individual horse will illustrate the fallacy in the proposition that Ma’naqi could be isolated as a sub-group. I decided to trace a couple of Blue List horses, prominent in SE bloodlines, to see if I could find any clues to explain the Raswan (and Ott) logic. I started with Anter’s (1946) pedigree. His sire, Hamdan is listed as Blue Star, so no need to follow that line as the Ma’naqi must be from his dam. Looking at Anter’s dam’s sire, Mekdam, I found he traces to Queen of Sheba. The following data is from Al Khamsa’s website:

Queen of Sheba – 1875 - By a Ma'naqi Hudruji of Ibn Jufayfi [Qufayfah] of the Qumusah Saba'ah out of an 'Ubayyah Sharrakiyah. A brown 'Ubayyah Sharrakiyah bred by "Erheyen" Ibn 'Aliyan of the Qumusah section of the Saba'ah tribe.

Well, there it is, by a Ma’naqi Hudrujii – making it obvious to me where (at least some of) the Ma’naqi was coming from in Anter’s pedigree and explaining why he was Blue Listed. This entry is helpful in that the documentation also gives the tribe name.

Nazeer is also Blue List, so I traced his pedigree. No need to go too far, as I found the following on AK’s website:

Om Dalal (1898) Her sire "Sabah the Maanagi," her dam "fleabitten grey mare daughter of Roga the Saklawieh Jedrani."

I also found this horse in Nazeer’s pedigree: Maanagia Hadragia (1880) Maanagia Hadragia's son Sabbah as an unnamed grey Ma'naqi Hudruji stallion of the marbat of Ibn Sbayyli (or Ma'naqi Sbaili), his dam the Ma'naqiyah Sbailiyah "brought from Arabia to the Tihawis [the Tahawi tribe in Egypt] from whom Ahmed Pasha took her." (by this we know that Ibn Sbayyli had Ma’naqi at his place, and that some went to the Tahawi and also to Ahmed Pasha. We should then expect to find Ma’naqi bloodlines in horses coming from any of those sources).

Staying with Nazeer’s pedigree I found: Dajania (1876) : A Kuhaylat 'Ajuz of the Da'janiyah family (or Kuhaylah Da'janiyah) bred by Muhammad Pasha, a Turkmen chief, who had stolen her dam from the Saba'ah. There is no Ma’naqi documented with this horse - she is a Kuhaylat ‘Ajuz. What the documentation does NOT tell us is anything about her sire. Since she came from the Saba’ah, whom we know had the Ma’naqi strain from the previous documentation on Queen of Sheba, how are we to know that Dajania was not BY a Ma’naqi, or that she did not have a Ma’naqi somewhere in her bloodline?

The same could be said for Ghazieh (1850) A Saqlawiyah Jidraniyah of the marbat of Ibn Sudan. Again, there is no mention of her sire, so what strain was he? I find this note on the AK website: the Saqlawi marbat of Ibn Sudan has a tribal affiliation of Saba'ah. With this tribal affiliation in mind, could we safely conclude that horses coming from Ibn Sudan might contain some of the Saba'ah Ma’naqi bloodlines? It is entirely possible that Ghazieh was by a Ma’naqi, or had one in her bloodline. It is just not DOCUMENTED either way.

There are many horses, straight from the desert, whose documentation is like that of Ghazieh, and only describes the dam’s family name. With this in mind, it becomes easier to see why the proposition that a distinction between no Ma’naqi (Blue Star) and some Ma’naqi (Blue List) is really an impossible position to maintain.



Thanks Ray, I could have never put it in such superb english. Appreciate your research data repeated here.

You see, this is what I have been struggling with for decades. Considering all this the Blue Catalogue has to be taken with a grain of salt. Besides this, Basilisk is sub-listed and others I sublistd (Bashir/Badria) because nothing fits them of the catalogue definitions. I guess this is why Doug Marshall wanted me to not pay to much emphasis on the definitions and went by what I do, either "Asil" or NOT!

I will never forget when we were invited to one of the older tribe breeding farms in Syria, numerous horses were shown to us. One of the "elders" sat next to me stating here and there "she NOT ASIL". that covered about 3-4 out of the presented individuals. I have the data somewhere, never had the time to pursue it, but eventually will.

Some of the Germans go even further. they actually claim that unles it is "Blue List" or "Blue Star" IT IS NOT ASIL, which of course is total nonsense in my opinion. Their attitude or shall I say ignorance always bothered me.
POssibly also these folks used it as a marketing tool, eh.

It is wonderrful that you and others come forward with knowledge and data, such a learning project for our young ones and also olders.

I just wish we could,also unrevel those lovely Polish/russian/spanish etc Arabians, because they cant be all
Non-Asils, unless we find an actual foreign breed by name in them, such as 30-Maria, etc.

Finally I still maintain that the true value of any horse, especially stallions , is what it can do under saddle or infront of a cart.

take care
hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Jul 24 2008, 07:31 PM) *
Ray said:
"Caryn,
Would you be so kind as to scan the document that Melissa inquired about? The telegram from W R Brown?"


Not only do I not have the telegram from WR Brown, I've never set eyes on it. No one I know has ever seen it. I asked Walter Schimanski about it years ago and he didn't know what I was talking about. I called the Registry many years ago (years before the time I was told that old records are now inaccessible) and asked for a copy of the telegram, but was told that nothing like that was on file. Hansi is the only one that I know who has ever referred to it...and since she keeps saying she has it, why would you ask me to scan it rather than asking her to scan it?

While we are on the subject of this telegram from WR Brown, can someone please explain to me why this matters a hoot? He was a private party, not any kind of authority, so what does his opinion of the horse have any bearing whatsoever on her qualifications as a SE Arabian?
Caryn

Lordy, Lordy, what we've learned through the years.

QUOTE (Tessie @ Jul 24 2008, 08:54 PM) *
Maybe you could have said straight away simply, "no, I don't have it." Why would I think you would have it? Because you posted her export certificate from the RAS which is also in her import file at the Registry. I assumed you didn't get just a part of her file but the whole thing. I know other people did get the whole file which I've been told included a telegram. I have not seen the telegram and would like to see it. On this forum is where it has been said the author was W. R. Brown.

W.R. Brown was no authority? He was president of the Registry at the time! The author of "The Horse of the Desert" and owner of the Maynesboro Stud. I think those things rather indicate he was an authority. It has nothing whatever to do with SE status. I never said it did.

Btw, just in case anyone is interested, it is my opinion that *Exochorda's parents were imports into Egypt. She was bred and foaled there. Therefore she is an Egyptian mare, a pure Egyptian mare. The Pyramid Society defines her as SE. Which she is. I'm not interested in arguing about any of that. I'm curious about the mare, but basically about things that don't have to do with those issues, which are settled as far as I'm concerned. So why keep asking ME those type questions inside my questions, when I don't have any questions about where she was born? IN EGYPT!!!!;)

Melissa

diane
Blue Star (as they became known) - individuals Miss JL Ott preferred to bred to each other with no recorded Mu'uniqi Strain as it was known to her, in an attempt to preserve this group of individuals.

Blue List (as they became known) - individuals Miss JL Ott preferred to bred to each other with one or more recorded Mu'uniqi Strain in their pedigree as it was known to her, in an attempt to preserve this group of individuals.

Blue Catalogue (as it became known) - the instrument to record the above information by Miss JL Ott.

Sublists were created for the other individuals who didn't fit in the above categories.


This isn't complicated.



What I don't see, hear, read is too much about your books, Hansi. Is this what irks you the most?

Dieter
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Aug 4 2008, 10:02 AM) *
Most excellent post Sheila!
Liz, you hit the nail right on the head. Thank you.

Disclaimer:
Read it for what it's worth, it's just my opinion.
Here's my opinion on this saga.
I feel if these women were truly interested in researching Exochorda and wanted to put it in a book they would. However, it's not too ironic that they come here where Hansi is everyday, and start each and every thread discrediting Hansi and making over the top insults towards her and anyone who attempts to defend Hansi for sharing a similar opinion with Hansi.

This is what this is ALL about, and really has nothing to do with a mare at all.
They use this mare as an avenue to attack Hansi, because Caryn has a bee under her bonnet for Hansi.

Caryn told me straight out several years ago, when we were on speaking terms, that she will destroy Hansi and discredit her if she gets in her way. We were at the Egyptian Event. I think Caryn probably wanted to be the next Judi Forbis, or Lady Anne Blunt, and have her own organization like TPS. The quest for power and money does strange things to some people.

And this, is what this is all about in my opinion. It's not about a horse, which IS on the roster for Straight Egyptian, or a mare which IS listed in Al Khamsa and has been for many years. It's about one individual who has an ax to grind with Hansi because Hansi spoke the truth as she knew it.
If she really WAS working to prove horses, why didn't she pick KARS? Who IS a SOFI horse, but not a SE horse? Work on something which could have possiby been more fruitful.

Think about it.

The mare E. is qualified by TPS as SE, the mare is listed in Al Khamsa, they have an organization where Caryn was the self appointed president, and her BOD was hand selected by her. WHY , why on earth does Caryn need to make such a HUGE issue over this mare for the last 20 years? The horse is ALREADY in. What's the beef?
The beef is between Caryn and Hansi.
The agenda is to discredit Hansi at any cost.
The motive is Money.
The rest of us are just roadkill who got in the way of Caryn's agenda.

It is a long and well known belief by many who were there during the beginning, to this story that years ago, these horses were being purchased rather inexpensively in comparison to the horses who did have Inshass blood, (Morafic, Shaikh Al Badi, Ruminaja Ali, Imperial horses, Ansata Horses, Rosetta,etc) These horses (ones in parenthesis) were VERY expensive at the time, and these folks wanted to be able to SELL horses for big bucks like Ansata was for example, but didn't have the money to BUY horses for big bucks that Ansata and others had. Marketing agenda 101.

So they got these horses instead, which were totally picked over by everyone else in SE already, and filled their barns, and pointed out what shred or sliver of blood it was that they had in common. I saw many many of these horses back in the day, and I could easily put a value on them in terms of price, and let's just say, they were nowhere NEAR the price category of horses that were well known at the time.

Do I begrudge that? Certainly not, I love ALL these horses and see many great things in ALL of them, but it was looking fairly evident, that these horses didn't have a leg to stand on in terms of price comparison to the noteable SE's at the time.

It wasn't the they were Egypt/ Blunt, it was they DIDN"T HAVE INSHASS BLOOD, because EVERYONE in SE ALREADY HAD Egypt/Blunt blood in their horses.

Money.
They wanted something exclusive to SE, and they needed to find a way to make them exclusive in an attempt to 'one up' TPS.
The 'only leg' they had to stand on, is that they DID NOT have Inshass blood, which was their clever way of saying this sets them apart from the rest.

Then the El Deree wars began. They went around, saying El Deree wasn't a legitimate horse, and that Morafic and all that followed were highly questionable.
I was even told that the SE's weren't 'real arabians' because of this. Being a new breeder and only 18-19 and early 20's, I was very impressionable.

Later,
This was told to me by someone from their organization, which was riding off the coattails of TPS, and propogating that nonsense at the Egyptian Event. They used TPS and the Event, to further their agenda.

Initially, I thought they had a point. I admit my mistake. I apologized for not being able to understand this clearly in the beginning. WHen I was in my 20's and early 30's I did the best I could based on what I knew at the time, and now that I'm older, and know better, I try to do better.

But as time when on, I could NEVER get over the fact that the RAS did IN FACT use this blood of Inshass, which was part of the qualifications of a horse being SOFI. I couldn't make logical sense out of how to disclude Inshass blood.

I also did not feel that Exochorda blood was to the level of Ansata Ibn Halima, or Moniet El Nefous. AND, the RAS DID NOT use the blood of E. . Which would technically disqualify Exochorda from SOFI. I tried breeding these lines every which way I could. They didnt' improve to the level of quality that I felt was necessary.

I questioned SOFI on this.
I got brow beat.

Later...
*Notice the change in the definition with SOFI, where it was added (under the auspices of Dr. Branch)

So, I was blacklisted from the preservation community by Joe, Marilyn, and Caryn, because I WOULD NOT go along with thier agenda to support this nonsense.They whispered behind my back, said some very negative things about me, told everyone not to talk with me, not to buy horses from me, yada yada ya. I was called names on a public forum such as 'whore' , 'bitch', 'cancer', 'disease'.
They even went as far to make ill comments about my small children.
Why?

1. I did not see the difference in the Inshass horses. I felt these horses desperately needed to go to current SE stock which included Inshass.
2. I would not support the idea of destroying Hansi Heck
3. I did not feel that the goal to topple TPS was a good idea by any stretch of the imagination.

I felt the SOFI horses where on a downward spiral genetically. A very slipperly slope. I felt there was a visable lack in stallion quality within this group. I was unable to find stallions who had enough genetic material and phenotype to put these horses up to the level of quality of the mainstream horses, OR, at least get them to the level of the original horses which came to this country such as Ansata Ibn Halima. The need for an outcross to the Inshass blood was apparent, and I thought, this is most likely why it was done by the RAS in the first place. I felt that Inshass was vitally important to maintain the quality of stallions.

However, there were some very good mares still present in this group.
They would have been best served being bred to Egypt/Blunt/Inshass stallions in my opinion.
The blood from these mares would have been a good infusion into SE.
But they wouldn't have it, nor consider what I was suggesting.

I began to breed my mares this way, and I was called a 'traitor' by their little henchman for doing so.

What strikes me as being 'phoney' is that these so called 'preservationists' didn't even know the horses they were representing. There was no lists of mares, no numbers of mares from each family, no further information which is normally present in a preservation organization such as statistics, etc.

Today, I am here, because I feel, and in my own opinion, this is NOT about E. at all. Rather this is about one persons quest for fame and fortune, who didn't get her way, and who hasn't done hardly a thing to help this organization she supports, rather she has severly compromised what 'could have been' a welcomed support to the breed. She left her members standing out in the cold with their horses, waiting for something they were promised which never came.
Yet all we see is a grandiose thread with the innuendo that they have this new, top secret evidence which solves this entire mystery that has allluded some of the most highest ranking SE breeders and well respected SE historians and researchers that we know in SE of all time.

In the past 15+ years, I have seen horses go to waste. I'm sickened when I hear of some who had insurance money collected on horses who died in tragic accidents, because the owners were NOT horsepeople, but were investors trying to make a quick buck on these horses. And breeders pleading, to please buy my horses I cannot afford to care for them.

It appears to me, and in my opinion, that SOFI made a big mistake in their research originally , thought they could cover it up, and then set out on a 20 year mission to prove the mare Exochoda. Added the 'auspices" in an attempt to include Exochorda and dismiss El Deree. HOWEVER, after 20 years, they stiill don't know how to INCLUDE this mare as coming from the 7 breeders. And, afterall that IS the premise of your organization? Why can't they ammend this defintion?
Simply because the ammendment would cause El Deree to be included, and this will no longer set them apart from SE and TPS.

Read what SOFI wrote:

"Sheykh Obeyd Arabians are those horses bred by, acquired by, or introduced into the genetic stream by seven Foundation Breeders in Egypt that were drawn together by a mutual passion."
SOFI WEBSITE, referencing the definition of a SOFI horse.

"Miraculously, it has been maintained through like-minded breeders of succeeding generations, who have seen the vision of those 7 original breeders.


ABBAS PASHA - ALI PASHA SHERIF

WILFRED AND LADY ANNE BLUNT - AHMED BEY SENNARI

PRINCE AHMED PASHA KEMEL - KHEDIVE ABBAS II

ROYAL AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY
(under the auspices of Dr. Branch)"


Where's Henry Hebermann on this list?

Read the definition of SE. Compare them.

Kimberli,
I mean this in the nicest possible way. The continuation of you presenting horses to raise questions on them, in an effort to take the focus of the discussion is showing how very very little one's understanding is to qualify a horse for SE and Al Khamsa. A true preservationists knows just how much info is needed to clarify a horse beyond a reasonable doubt. They met protocol, they have been decided upon, and based on this many have chosen to accept and breed these lines which fall under SE. This out the back door excuse to question other SE horses is divisive and not supportive of reasonable logic.

In closing...(sigh)
This had gone on waaaayyyy too long. These conversations end in hurt feelings. The hurt feelings cause people to say things they will regret. What friendships could have been formed are instead ending in feuds. This in NOT the way ANY responsible organization should behave.

It is very divisive to continue on these issues.
IF THERE WAS more information, it should have been presented by now.
My suggestion is to put this nightmare to bed already.
E. is Straight Egyptian
E. is Al Khamsa
Kimberli has pointed out numerous times, that E. is SOFI based on ONLY ONE reason which is because Caryn says it's so, and this organization is Caryn's baby. Apparently E. gets a free pass, and rules are being bent to include her in SOFI.

SO BE IT!

If someone wants to breed this line based on E,. or if someone bred this line because they want *Nasr blood, and it's the only way they can get it, well, then so be it. TO each their own. I think *Nasr blood is quite exceptional really.

And I'd like to quote someone who I find as being highly remarkable. He gave me the best advice I've gotten so far.
"Invest in your real estate and property, and then breed whatever the heck you like on your property." Steve Diamond. smile.gif
Advice we could ALL benefit from.


Hansi,
Though the ups and downs over the years, I have never ever known you to not be willing to help someone with their horses. Sometimes we are ALL a little rough around the edges, but you have my respect and I admire you for the many years you have devoted to these horses and helping people all over the world.
If not for people like you, many of us would not have the courage to do what we must do for the sake of our horses.

And a word to the wise, next time you want to defame someone for being sick and tired of watching you beat Hansi and anyone else who disagrees with you to a bloody pulp on the forum, don't expect everyone to sit by and watch and put up with it or allow others to see only YOUR side of the story.

Caryn,
For the sake of everyone, PLEASE put this issue to bed and move on. Too many good people have been hurt by this.

HLM
Thanks you for re-posting. Please do not be concerned, only the TRUTH can destroy, so matter how hard these people ry, they will never succeed but actually will or have dug their own grave.. Reputation and Trust has been badly blemished, here and abroad..

One must always consider the motive, why a person does what. In the moment money is involved, many a strange things happens.

Fortunately there are only a few people in this world, filled with so much hate and anger, they cant see straight.
Any new discovery, if it does not fit their agenda, is automatically attacked. That seems to be a very low intelligence
degree, in my opinion and diplayes a frustrated person.


BTW did you red CR's opinion about W.R. Brown stated in 2008, when only recently she posted that for some 20 years she wrote in her articles about him. amazing, just amazing. We say in German "Luegen haben kurze Beine".
Und- wer einmal luegt dem glaubt man nicht, wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht".

As far as that "telegram" is concerned, Asil Club, AK, Joe Ferris, Pam Studebaker and other have a copy.
that should settle that, I guess. I thought Melissa Paul had a copy too.

Take care
Hansi.

Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 21 2012, 01:12 PM) *
Fortunately there are only a few people in this world, filled with so much hate and anger, they cant see straight.
Any new discovery, if it does not fit their agenda, is automatically attacked. That seems to be a very low intelligence
degree, in my opinion and diplayes a frustrated person.


Take care
Hansi.

Who was it that posted any new information ????????
Haris
Kelly wrote that post , my god thats a post and a half from her . I too miss THAT Kelly .

Regards

Haris
Dieter
QUOTE (Haris @ Feb 21 2012, 05:54 PM) *
Kelly wrote that post , my god thats a post and a half from her . I too miss THAT Kelly .

Regards

Haris

Dear Haris,

Yes she did wub.gif God love her - she wrote from the heart.

It's good to "see" you Haris - I missed you.

Kind Regards,

Liz
Caryn Rogosky
Ya, people who write from the heart always start out by covering their bottoms with disclaimers. Does anyone think that its a little fishy to start off a long dissertation like that with a disclaimer? Is it kind of strange for a person to claim, in no unscertain terms, that a named party said something very specific to them -- AFTER qualifying that claim under the umbrella of "opinion"?

If someone is telling the truth, why do they need a "disclaimer"? They don't. So let me do this...let me respond, again, to Kelly Gobla's claim. It was a flat out lie then, its a flat out lie now. I never had any conversation with her, at the Egyptian Event or anywhere else, in which I said anything like what she claimed I said. Now, that's not my opinion, that's a fact. -- and no disclaimer needed. As far as the rest of her saga goes, she does have a colorful imagination...or maybe its a matter of personal projection.

How I've lived is who I am, and that's pretty easy to track. I have written no books, sold no books. I have never claimed to be a researcher nor an authority of any kind. Any information that I have acquired I have gladly shared freely with anyone genuinely interested. I have had no interest in, nor have I ever made any effort to increase my involvment in the Pyrmaid Society or any other Arabian organization, I retired from the Board Of Directors of SOFI several years ago and I've also retired from breeding. These actions don't exactly support Kelly Gobla's accounts of my motivation in defending the authenticity and qualifications of Exochorda over the years. I'm glad to be judged based on who considers me a friend, and equally glad to be judged based on who considers me a foe... and that pretty much sums it up for me.
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