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Nadj al Nur
Ralph
I agree, people should be far more educated, possibly even have a licence to breed, HOWEVER, the Nais situation has nothing to do with that.That's a whole other thing. If they decide to "depopulate" an area, do you seriously think they will only take the "less than ideal" animals ???? Or do you think they will educate breeders ???? Where is the correlation here????
Cathy
2mntn
Hi Ralph,

I truly appreciate your position. Economic forces come to bear in a free-market society and those who can not afford things will be forced out. Unfortunately, horses and other animals suffer the consequences.

My wife can not watch the "Animal Cop" shows on TV - Houston, Miami - whatever. The neglect and abuse is too much for her to bear. The real world is, all too often, filled with neglect, abuse and despair. For people as well as animals.

I wish I had some answers. I wish I didn't feel like there is not much hope for improvement. I wish I didn't feel like I should stop raising horses for other people, as my babies may end up being neglected, starved or otherwise abused. I have trouble seeing the situation improving significantly, as competition for earth's resources becomes ever more fierce. ph34r.gif

Ray
Cheryl L
We can't even agree amongst ourselves, what the ideal horse is. How can we even think of having a government tell what can be bred or not? Licensing is not the answer and no way is government regulation the answer either.
Cheryl
Eyegor
That is exactly what we need, more laws, more legislation, fewer rights, an intellectual elite telling all of us who to be, what to do and what to say, which hobby or business to attempt, how many children to have and raise and what level of education we can aspire to.......??.
Big Brother, or rather big Government always knows what's best for all of us....seems I remember King George as well.....Kaiser Wilhelm, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler...they all knew what we needed.....
first Freedoms, then Rights, who needs a constitution when a single entity controls all????
I was one of those who Chose better Dead than Red, cause I saw that Red side first hand and we are rapidly getting redder tn what was........It is why I was naturalized....so that I can defend our constitution with honor as a citizen with full rights and to escape those who want to be in charge of my life.......
Ralph
Joe, Ray and Cheryl:

I don't know enough about this NAIS and maybe that is reason enough for me not to participate in this discussion. At a very basic level of understanding, I understand this to be an animal identification and tracking system, a way of organizing who owns which/what animals. So, will horse owners become more accountable through NAIS? That would be my hope. And yes, because horses do suffer from neglect and abuse, I really believe that we need some type of control, licensing, whatever to prevent horses from suffering. I don't care about Big Brother and all the other things mentioned. I just don't want horses to suffer anymore.

Ralph
2mntn
Hi Joe,

That's some scary stuff....I sure hope it doesn't come to that! While I appreciate the intent of Homeland Security, I can't help having visions of Gestapo. Hopefully, Americans hired for these jobs will not be trained to believe they are a different class of people and we are the enemy.

Ray
Ralph
Hi Ray, you really got me good today, when you said:

QUOTE
I wish I didn't feel like there is not much hope for improvement. I wish I didn't feel like I should stop raising horses for other people, as my babies may end up being neglected, starved or otherwise abused.


I remember reading Bo Derek's book and she stopped breeding Andalusian horses for the exact reason that you said in your post. It's is scary to think of what will happen to the horses you love and care for, when they leave the safe comfort of your home. I think this is the hardest part of being a breeder of horses. And how do you deal with this?
2mntn
Hi Ralph,

Sorry, maybe I'm just feeling a little more glum today - cabin fever, or whatever. I'm not normally so pessimistic. How I dealt with it in the past was, I quit.

I had three horses left, my Spanish stallion, Mandato and two of his sons. One day, I awoke to discover that Mandato would soon be 20 years old and furthermore, I had no Straight Spanish offpring from him! Feeling that he was one of the best quality sons of *Barich De Washoe, I decided to get back in and produce a few replacements. One thing led to another and I have an SE program now, as well. Or I think I might.

These events have all been recent enough that I have not produced anything for sale. So the decision on how I will handle this can be postponed - for a little while longer. wink.gif

Ray
Dieter
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Ralph
I am not convinced that NAIS is the horrible "monster" this discussion thread is trying to convince us all that it is. Best to google it, as someone else suggested and contact the proper authorities for further questions/clarifications.

From the website:

Specific benefits of Equine Identification:
1) Reduce potential effect and enhance control of equine disease outbreaks. A national identification system for equines in the United States would enable officials to identify particular animals that have been exposed to a contagious disease and isolate them in order to prevent the disease from becoming more widespread.

2) Maintain equine commerce and movement of horses in the case of a disease outbreak. Disease outbreaks can stop all movement and commerce regarding livestock, including horses. This has been clearly demonstrated with the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the U.K., the recent discovery of BSE in the United States and the outbreaks of Vesicular Stomatitis. In recent months, some states have closed their borders to horses from a specific state, due to the lack of confidence in that states’ ability to track and contain a specific disease. Some equine events have prohibited or controlled movements of horses from other states affected by disease. With a national system, state animal health officials will have greater ability to identify specific locations and animals where a disease may be prevalent, thus eliminating embargoes of an entire state’s population of horses or others animals.

3) Assist equestrian events in ensuring a healthy environment for participating horses. Most major events involving horses in the United States require some sort of health certification, including a negative Coggins Test. A national ID system could enhance these requirements by having better systems to ensure the health of the animals involved. Kentucky has recently been awarded the privilege of hosting the 2010 World Equestrian Games. Individual animal identification will be a requirement for all equines participating and a necessity in tracking and maintaining a disease prevention program during the games and beyond.

4) Expedite recovery and identification of horses lost due to natural disaster, theft, or accident. A permanent ID system for horses could be used in emergency situations to link the horse to a premise, owner, or caretaker. Hurricane Katrina was an example of how effective individual animal identification can be, with virtually all displaced horses being returned to their rightful owner. This was not the case with many other species. In addition, the ID system could be utilized in the case of a theft to facilitate return of the animal to the owner.

5) Facilitate import and export of equine. Many horses are imported and exported into and out of the United States each year. A positive national identification system could expedite these processes and allow for more effective means of identifying the animals moving internationally.

6) Uphold the horse industry as a responsible member of the livestock community. The importance of the horse industry in cooperating with the entire livestock industry in the case of a disease outbreak cannot be overstated. The implementation of an ID system for the equine industry would allow the industry to work in concert with other members of the livestock industry to quickly trace back diseased or exposed animals.


.
Dieter
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Cheryl L
Here is a document from 2006.
http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/naisli...gust_1_2006.pdf
Kimberli Nelson
You might find the following interesting reading.

CONTROL THE FOOD - CONTROL THE POPULATION







By Doreen Hannes
January 20, 2008
NewsWithViews.com

I want to tell you how I found out about NAIS (National Animal Identification System) in the hope that you will see how disturbing this is and why we have to fight it with everything we have. In July of 2005, I went to a meeting at the Ava Missouri Sale Barn regarding a new electronic cattle identification program that was to be mandatory in January of 2006 in order to sell cattle in the State of Missouri. Yes, January of 2006. Dr Taylor Woods, a member of the NAIS Subcommittee, was the one speaking. He never said what the name of the program was, nor offered any website where one could go for information. I asked a couple of questions and then made a statement. That statement was, "It sounds like you just want to have complete control of the food supply." Dr Woods replied, "We already do." It is a frightening prospect to consider any group of men in complete control of the food supply, much less a bunch of people who fear microbes. Needless to say, much of what Dr Woods stated was not entirely true. We would not be required to electronically identify our cattle to be able to sell them in January of 2006, and it wasn't really a done deal except in the minds of bureaucrats who hate the fact that we still have this irritating thing called the United States Constitution that needs to at least be given lip service from time to time or chance a full scale revolt.

Then, in late November of 2005 I went into a local feed store, MFA, and was greeted by a flame orange sign on the counter saying "Due to the Bioterrorism Act We must have your name, address and phone number to sell you feed." As creepy as that is, I now had a starting place. In a short amount of time I found myself with the name of the program Dr Woods was talking about, which was indeed the National Animal Identification System, and a whole lot of information on the Bioterrorism Act of 2002, which is basically NAIS for food and feed up to the final consumer. Incidentally, the Bioterrorism Act passed as part of the 2002 Farm Bill, which included the Animal Health Protection Act (the USDA claims AHPA as their authorizing legislation for NAIS) introduced by none other than current Ag Chair Senator Harkin of Iowa. This same man has now introduced the first probable statutory reference to NAIS in the 2007 Farm Bill. Is this a coincidence? Not likely.

The USDA recently released new documents that will make NAIS next to impossible to fight without going on the offensive and filing suit against the Federal government. The USDA states in their Business Plan that in a scant few weeks (February 2008) they will issue a proposed rule to roll all breed registry identification into NAIS. They will also issue rules to roll all disease control programs into NAIS compliant identification standards. Brucellosis, Tuberculosis, Coggin's and Pseudorabies will magically roll right in through the rulemaking process. NPIP for poultry will just roll on in. Scrapies for sheep and goats will simply be turned in to NAIS premise ID without the knowledge or even consent of participants in this program. Certificates of health to move animals across state lines, or even within the state will be rolled in as well. If you get the idea that NAIS is like a bulldozer on steroids, you'd be about right. Remember that NAIS is a three part program with it's foundation being premise identification. You must have a premise id to get an animal id, and you must have premise id and animal id to have animal tracking.

The USDA is busily making Cooperative Agreements with all states and tribes and any non profit organization that will stick it's hand out for the taxpayer money to encourage and probably require their members to enroll in premise id and animal id in order to reap the benefits of membership in those organizations. The states are to help make NAIS compulsory in order to engage in commerce under these contracts. There is an exception allowed for individual animal identification… If you never move an animal off your property other than directly to slaughter it will not require an NAIS animal id, but there is no exception mentioned or alluded to for premise id under USDA's plan.

Meanwhile, our federal level legislators blithely reiterate to us "NAIS is voluntary at the Federal level" and say that they are doing so well because they cut the budget for NAIS. Well, the infrastructure has already been laid, folks. Unless you specifically stop NAIS via statute or a moratorium, it's going to roll over all of our rights through all disease control programs! Why do you refuse to uphold your oath of office? You didn't take an oath to pervert "general welfare" for the benefit of corporations and bureaucrats, did you? Did our forefathers bleed and die so that an agency could require birth certificates on chickens?

Many people seem to have a very difficult time understanding that NAIS is and always has been 48-hour traceback on all livestock. If you want 48-hour traceback, you must have 24 hour reporting of movements. NAIS is not a marketing program; it is being brought to bear at the point of market. NAIS cannot, by very definition, be a voluntary program. The USDA is holding states hostage at the point of interstate commerce by attaching NAIS premise id, and animal id to health certificates and disease control programs. To up the ante even further, they are buying the participation of feedlots, breed organizations, farm groups, youth groups and processors. To move across state lines, or in many cases, even within that state, you will need to be in NAIS. How can that be voluntary?

NAIS opposition has been fairly effective fighting this on a state by state level in a disorganized and haphazard fashion. The original plans called for mandatory in January of 2008 and mandatory with enforcement of all aspects in January of 2009. We've pushed the USDA back, and sideways, but we have not stopped them because the people in positions of power have not had the will to take on the fight.

The anti-NAIS movement has had a grand total of one case filed; and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture backed off just because of the filing. Why are all the attorneys who have stepped into this battle against NAIS not going after the federal government for an injunction or more? The entire program is patently and assuredly un-Constitutional. The USDA is trying to shift all lawsuits to the states by saying "NAIS is voluntary at the federal level" while they push the states into full implementation through perverting the Interstate Commerce Clause.

Certainly, if we still have a Constitution, we can win on simply the religious objection alone. But our arguments go further than even the First amendment. We also have the 4th, 5th, 9th, 10th, 13th and 14th amendments that are being violated with NAIS. There are issues of unfair competition that will need to be addressed, as well as real estate effects of this program. Why can't we get on the offensive and file suit? We have harm in many of those who were rolled in, or coerced into the program, and they are not all Amish who won't file suits.

We have the Alliance Defense Fund who won the case without even going to court in PA, and the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund, who have taken on Greg Niewendorp's case in Michigan, the Center for Law and Religious Freedom involved in Wisconsin where the Amish have been assigned PIN's without their consent; they have all broken their teeth on NAIS. We have several individual attorneys who are well researched on the subject, and still, no filing on the federal level to stop the USDA from shoving this down our throats. The states of Michigan, Indiana and Wisconsin already have mandatory NAIS to a large degree. With the myriad of roll ins (Massachusetts, Idaho, Colorado Fairs, Illinois fairs, North Carolina Fairs and hay, Tennessee hay share, NY calfhood vaccination, Pennsylvania any farm programs, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, etc.) without proper authorization, there is no doubt where this is going. And it doesn't take a degree to see it.

While I readily concede that suing the USDA is not something to be done on a whim, surely if some of these learned individuals could get together and keep their egos out of the way we could find someone with the proper experience and expertise to bring suit against the USDA and get it stopped before we have to fight every single rule they promulgate related to NAIS for every one of the species covered under the program.

This is a plea from one who knows without a doubt that if this program is not stopped that there will be bloodshed….and not just the blood of animals. I am fully committed to doing everything within my power to stop this before it comes to that point. Please, please, stop playing politics and start filing before we have a complete disaster on our hands.

And to the unwashed masses, people like me that is, we cannot and must not fail to call our representatives on a regular basis and let them know we expect them to uphold the Constitution and the principles of freedom we have been endowed with. When we get a federal suit filed, we will need to reach into our wallets and support the one bringing the suit. When we get meaningful legislation to stop this, we must rally support for those pushing for us. It is going to take every one of us in whatever capacity we have to get this thing stopped. Don't wait for someone else to do it, or it won't get done. Your freedom is your responsibility. We have a gigantic secret weapon… there are way more of "us" than "them," and we're right!

© 2008 Doreen Hannes - All Rights Reserved
Cheryl L
Kimberli,
Because of the letter you posted above, I googled Greg Niewendorp's name. Here is a link with a whole lot of information about that situation. It is a long read, yet well worth it.
I buy all of my eggs and some beef/pork/chicken from a local farmer. He was telling me about this 'new' program and how it was putting a lot of strain on the small farmer. There were so many rules of compliance, that it was no longer worth it to some people to raise a small number of animals for resale meat. I now know that to be the NAIS.

Here is the Greg Niewendorp story:

http://xstatic99645.tripod.com/naisinfocentral/id43.html
Dieter
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Dieter
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Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Ralph,

I would say if you feel you have no worries in regards to NAIS my question would be have you voluntarily registered you property or your horse(s), your other animals and livestock...Perhaps, you would like to be a test case for us all..

The wild deer populations carry bruccelous and many other diseases listed on the watch list, one breeder had two foals crops lost due to it in 2004 and 2005.. The mares eventually developed immunities to it and were able to carry foals to term, but under NAIS his animals would be destroyed and those of every cattle, sheep, equine operation within a radius of the disease... This means the animals of the 4-H kids that are very active in the area, the multiple barrelracers in the area and all their QH's, the three large boarding operations in the area some boarding 100+ horses, the heirloom chicken producer with very rare breeds, and a sheep and alpaca wool producer which features the old ways of carding, spinning and dying wool.. All these people will be impacted by NAIS, due to a disease that occur in a wild population of deer... The Department of Natural Resources has deer check points for deer hunters all they have to do is have an infected deer come into the station and you be the unlucky person to have that animal killed within the radius of your farm and your animals are history whether they are infected or not... No quarentine..No voice of reason... No negiotiation.. Just someone deterimining you are within a kill zone..

Tracy
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Ralph,

I would say if you feel you have no worries in regards to NAIS my question would be have you voluntarily registered you property or your horse(s), your other animals and livestock...Perhaps, you would like to be a test case for us all..

The wild deer populations carry bruccelous and many other diseases listed on the watch list, one breeder had two foals crops lost due to it in 2004 and 2005.. The mares eventually developed immunities to it and were able to carry foals to term, but under NAIS his animals would be destroyed and those of every cattle, sheep, equine operation within a radius of the disease... This means the animals of the 4-H kids that are very active in the area, the multiple barrelracers in the area and all their QH's, the three large boarding operations in the area some boarding 100+ horses, the heirloom chicken producer with very rare breeds, and a sheep and alpaca wool producer which features the old ways of carding, spinning and dying wool.. All these people will be impacted by NAIS, due to a disease that occur in a wild population of deer... The Department of Natural Resources has deer check points for deer hunters all they have to do is have an infected deer come into the station and you be the unlucky person to have that animal killed within the radius of your farm and your animals are history whether they are infected or not... No quarentine..No voice of reason... No negiotiation.. Just someone deterimining you are within a kill zone..

Tracy
Eyegor
I have a single simple question. A few decades ago, we as citizens were required to apply for a license to purchase a handgun. It became a law, with waiting periods etc and all the rigamarole the law specifies and to all our surprise, shooting deaths attributed to hand guns actually skyrocketed. Today more people get killed with handguns as weapons of choice than before these laws.
So what good was that statute, what did it solve.
Laws for and against this and that and what it boils down to is simply " compliance ".
Like prohibition and on an on and on......those that wish to circumvent legality always will and no law will force those into compliance.....
What we need of course are more laws, and more enforcers.......

I can tell you a short story. As a ten year old boy we had relatives in the then Soviet sector of Austria, east of the Danube (Donau) and we were permitted to visit once a year via application to the then Soviet directorship of the area. We had applied two years prior and finally in '54 we were given permission. As per custom we took along small gifts for these relatives in the form of food, cigarettes, wine, cheeses etc.......the crossing was in Linz at a bridge that was closed unless via permit. We walked across the bridge and it is quite a walk cause the Danube is a wide river (at least for a ten year old and my siblings aged eight and three) when we exited the bridge and checked in at the armed, (black uniforms, submachine guns, battle helmets and tanks parked in readiness, the silence of the place was so thick I thought my ears were plugged. We hailed a Fiaker (a horse drawn coach) and after a ten mile or so jaunt we found the relatives. We were greeted by fingers placed on lips and asked to speak very quietly because the walls had ears and neighbors have loose lips..........
The presents were mostly confiscated, Cigarettes, wine (Most, an apple cider) also the cheese, I guess cheese and wine is a Russian tradition as well......
I can tell you that the entire time we were in that Soviet sector the weather was dark and dank and oppressing and then the minute we touched the western bank the day got brighter immediately. Now you need to remember that these are the recollections of a very young and impressionable mid, a child really and take them for what they are worth but that is how I remember that visit with Crystal clarity...

But yer right of course we need laws to keep us in line........
Georgia
You are extremely scary Ralph, and the approach to superior behavior,
hense we decide who has children. Perhaps your parents should have been in the.. they shouldn't have them catagory??. As a superior being decided this for your family. If this makes you mad, You had better think about what you have just said. Seriously, this would be ok in your book as long as you are amoungst the ones making those decisions, I'm sure.

Try to tell this to be people that bred Seabiscuit's and John Henry's of the world.

Or the people that Bred the little Arabian mare that won the heart of a little 6 yr old girl that gave her the confidence to ride and love horses.

Very well said, Eyegor!!

Georgia
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
I think Ray from Two Mountain made a great observation on another thread... I am quite sure he has hit the nail on the head... Ralph must be bored and just here to rattle some cages...Unfortunately, we are all giving him satifaction...

We should get on with the matter at hand... To all become as informed as possible regarding NAIS... Make the efforts to support all livestock breeders in an effort to keep this from being implemented and where implemented have it repealed..Tracy
Nadj al Nur
What is accepted, becomes acceptable !!!

Scary thought, isn't it................
Cathy
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Another thought is to list and expose all those that profit from the implementation of NAIS from the producers of technology, to the big farms that stand to profit from the demise of the small farmer, and the politician with his hands in deep pockets... Then boycott them out of existence...Tracy
Dave
The problem with NAIS and everything else the government does is it just gets bigger, more costly, and more complicated. Only rarely does anything get repealed or curtailed.

Complexity=Control.

Go to www.farmandranchfreedom.org and on the right side of home page, there is a link to government documents. The first two are the business plan and the user's guide for NAIS. Does anyone posting here have time to read this crap.

On the original post to this thread there was mention of international law. I'd like to know where this comes from. Our government is bad enough but international law has got to be the worst.

Dave
Chiron
Sorry, I don't know the author & I'll have to paraphrase but it goes something like this: When they came for the family in the next Village over, I didn't speak out for I did not know them. When they came for the family in my Village I was busy & I did not speak out. When they came to my door, for my family, there was no one left to speak for me. sad.gif

Divide & conquer the very oldest trick in the book. mad.gif

Seeing as how we've manage to survive this long with common sense & the safe guards that are already in place; It makes one wonder what new "super bug" is lurking in some Govenment Lab ready to make it's escape. ph34r.gif GACK, I've been watching to many bad movies again. tongue.gif Art imitates Life or is it the other way around unsure.gif
Dieter
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BaileyArabians
I've always liked this one also

QUOTE
Benjamin Franklin:
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security


Kathy
Ralph
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Feb 3 2008, 02:30 PM)
I think Ray from Two Mountain made a great observation on another thread... I am quite sure he has hit the nail on the head... Ralph must be bored and just here to rattle some cages...Unfortunately, we are all giving him satifaction...
*



Avondale: I have no idea who you are and can safely say I have never met you. So, why do you pretend to know that I am "bored" and trying to "rattle some cages"??? What right do you have to speak about me and imply negative insinuations regarding my participation in an open discussion???? How do you know what is in my head, at any given moment???? I offered a different opinion, a different view of NAIS and that gives everyone here a right to launch an attack, because I disagree????


QUOTE
You are extremely scary Ralph, and the approach to superior behavior,
hense we decide who has children. Perhaps your parents should have been in the.. they shouldn't have them catagory??. As a superior being decided this for your family. If this makes you mad, You had better think about what you have just said. Seriously, this would be ok in your book as long as you are amoungst the ones making those decisions, I'm sure


Georgia: I am really stunned by your remarks and the viciousness of your words. Like Avondale, I don't know you, never met you and because I participate in a discussion with a contrary opinion to most of the participants and someone like you tells me that my parents should have never had any children???? Are you kidding me???? What the heck did I ever do to you, to merit the words you chose to throw my way????
Dieter
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Dieter
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Cyglenda Miller
Another link alternet

This really makes me wonder as we had a mare go from here in West Virginia to Texas a couple of months ago and our veterinarian received a letter from officials in Texas that her Coggins was not an official Coggins. It was the same as every other Coggins we had ever had done. The Coggins was issued by the USDA. The vet was also baffled.

Cyglenda
Dieter
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Dieter
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Dieter
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Mollie
NAIS works? Oh yes, most definitely works. Nais works to make you pay much more for the food you eat. The huge large productions raising thousands of animals do NOT have to microchip all of them. They only have to chip ONE. Those small farms raising chickens, without harmful antibiotics, who don't want to feed them arsenic, etc. now they will have to microship ALL of their chickens. I believe the cost of doing each one will be more than the price they sell them for.

I think it more likely that the horse-police will show up on your doorstep because you didn't report to the government when you went off your property to ride your horse down to visit the neighbor. If you didn't report, then you pay a fine. Some folks have property on both sides of a public rode. Turning some of your horses from the pasture on the south side to the north side of the road? Each horse must be reported to the government when you do this, within 24 hours or you will be fined.

It has been proven that microchips cause tumor formation, including cancers. A chip can also migrate inside the body. Well, you might like little Ibn Cutie so much that you don't want to take a chance and so you don't microchip that one. If you do so, don't ever get the vet out to your place. Vets will be required by LAW to report anyone that doesn't comply with NAIS. And then you get to pay a fine.

But maybe you think, oh this is too costly to implement, little Bint Whitesocks will be ok. Then WHY does Microsoft want to control the database??? When was the last time Billionaire Bill did anything that doesn't involve a profit.

It is no secret that the US wants to "join" the European Market so all will have the same type of animal control. Hmmm, just exactly how will this work? Well, a farmer in England had - notice that word "had" - a prize winning herd of cattle (I think that's what they were). Bred for generations, superior in every way. The GOVERNMENT came along, wanted the paperwork. The farmer didn't have it so he could get to it right away. The government destroyed his entire herd. There was no disease in or around, these prize winning superior animals were killed just because the paperwork wasn't at hand.

You "sure the hell want it" ? You actually want something like this?
Mollie

QUOTE (2mntn @ Jan 31 2008, 10:11 PM)
NAIS works, as it applies to large producers of food for the consumer markets.  And I sure as hell want it if it will help keep cross-over disease like bird flu from coming to town.  But it should not involve threatening people, putting their land ownership at risk and driving them further away from feeling and behaving like free men.  And women.  And I don't want the horse-police showing up at my door because one of my horse-chip transmitters just went across town!!

Ray
*
Mollie
It is only a matter of time before dogs are included. And we know dogs can get bird flu from eating infected birds. Humans can too, but hopefully people won't be depopulated. But if bird flu comes to a town near you, and dogs have to be microchipped and registered, this "depopulation of every susceptible species" is really scarey.

QUOTE (An American Breeder @ Feb 2 2008, 03:05 AM)
My friend says the wording in the NAIS document is "de-population" of every susceptible species in the 5 mile radius.  And that is the only "solution" offered in the NAIS document for disease control.
*
Cheryl L
NAIS will not prevent bird-flu. We would have to stop migrating birds for that.


Microchips do NOT cause cancer. There was 1 case in a dog and that could have been causeed by vaccines.
Cheryl
An American Breeder
AHHH Cheryl

That is not true. The tests have been being done in Europe and they will cause cancer. It is not right now a high percentage, but then the chips have not been in the horses or animals for that long, so unknown what the percentage does with more time. However, if it is YOUR HORSE that gets the cancer, is it then oh so what? Just a small percentage and it is okay that my horse is dying?

No, I don't think you will feel that way. Have to go again and find that link; if the photos show they are fairly gruesomel
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 2 2008, 07:32 PM)
Hi Ralph,

From your posts today, shall I assume you are bored and possibly doing your Huck Finn imitation?  Going 'round the zoo, rattling cages, and poking a sticks at hornet's nests?  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Ray  biggrin.gif
*


It was an honest observation.... And judging from the way your response is way way over the top...I would assume you are trying to do just what was quoted from another thread..I an not taking the bait this thread is too IMPORTANT..Tracy
Dieter
A safe food source is the "fear control" basis for NAIS. How would the 48 hour trace back work in this case of Listeria?:

QUOTE
The Massachusetts Department of Public Health (MDPH) has issued a warning regarding milk products from Whittier Farms due to possible Listeria contamination.  Three elderly men have died, an unborn child has died, and two other people have been sickened in a Listeria outbreak that has been associated with Whittier Farms milk.
DNA fingerprinting conducted by the Massachusetts State Laboratory Institute showed that the Listeria bacteria causing these infections came from a common source, and Whittier Farms milk obtained at the dairy and in a patient's home tested positive for the outbreak strain of Listeria. Both in science and law, this establishes a clear link between the illnesses and Whittier Farms milk.
Determining the Source of a Listeriosis Outbreak
To find the source of an outbreak, genetic fingerprinting and epidemiological evidence are used.  The people sickened by Listeria bacteria with matching DNA fingerprints are interviewed (and/or their families are interviewed) to determine what they ate in the last 2 months (the incubation period for Listeria can be as long as 70 days).  Health investigators (epidemiologists) look for common food sources and investigate all likely sources.  Part of that investigation is testing processing plants (drains, equipment, etc.) and food products for Listeria monocytogenes.  If Listeria is found, isolates will have PFGE testing done on them to determine if they match the outbreak strain of Listeria monocytogenes.  If there is a match, health officials consider the food (food produced at the plant if the bacteria was found in the plant) the source of the outbreak
If epidemiological evidence (patient interviews, receipts of purchase, etc.) associates a food product with an outbreak but Listeria is not found in the food product or the plant that produced it, that is generally adequate evidence to make a claim for damages against the manufacturer, distributor, and/or retail seller of the food.

IT WOULD NOT WORK.

Other countries have mandatory animal identification - how is it working for you in eradicating diseases perpetuated by wild animals and guaranteeing a safe food source?
An American Breeder
Go to www.naissucks.com. Some will probably seem over the top posts;however, people are trying to get the citizens of our nation to perk up their ears, to listen, to read and to realize where "certain" ones are determined to go with our freedon, our America.

There is another website, r calf but I do not know the link.
An American Breeder
The USDA has made no secret that the Freedom of Information Act is to be invalidated regarding NAIS. There will be no information allowed through that act to anyone requesting information. What concerns me is the attitude of the military towards freedom of speech, not in protecting our country.

In that line, here is some information the Pentagon has printed on their views of freedom in America as to how it pertains to the Internet. Interesting reading.
____________________________________________________________

Subject: CRG Newsletter - Pentagon: The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy "weapons system By Brent Jessop
URL of this article: www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7980

Global Research, February 2, 2008

Knowledge Driven Revolution.com - 2007-11-19
Information Operation Roadmap Part 3

The Pentagon's Information Operations Roadmap is blunt about the fact that an internet, with the potential for free speech, is in direct opposition to their goals. The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy 'weapons system'.

The 2003 Pentagon document entitled the Information Operation Roadmap was released to the public after a Freedom of Information Request by the National Security Archive at George Washington University in 2006. A detailed explanation of the major thrust of this document and the significance of information operations or information warfare was described by me here.

Computer Network Attack
From the Information Operation Roadmap:
'When implemented the recommendations of this report will effectively jumpstart a rapid improvement of CNA [Computer Network Attack] capability.' - 7

'Enhanced IO [information operations] capabilities for the warfighter, including: ... A robust offensive suite of capabilities to include full-range electronic and computer network attack...' - 7
Would the Pentagon use its computer network attack capabilities on the Internet?

Fighting the Net
'We Must Fight the Net. DoD [Department of Defense] is building an information-centric force. Networks are increasingly the operational center of gravity, and the Department must be prepared to 'fight the net.' ' - 6

'DoD's 'Defense in Depth' strategy should operate on the premise that the Department will 'fight the net' as it would a weapons system.' - 13

It should come as no surprise that the Pentagon would aggressively attack the 'information highway' in their attempt to achieve dominance in information warfare. Donald Rumsfeld's involvement in the Project for a New American Century sheds more light on the need and desire to control information.

PNAC Dominating Cyberspace

The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was founded in 1997 with many members that later became the nucleus of the George W. Bush administration. The list includes: Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, I. Lewis Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz among many other powerful but less well know names. Their stated purpose was to use a hugely expanded U.S. military to project 'American global leadership.' In September of 2000, PNAC published a now infamous document entitled Rebuilding America's Defences. This document has a very similar theme as the Pentagon's Information Operations Roadmap which was signed by then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

From Rebuilding America's Defenses:
'It is now commonly understood that information and other new technologies... are creating a dynamic that may threaten America's ability to exercise its dominant military power.' - 4

'Control of space and cyberspace. Much as control of the high seas - and the protection of international commerce - defined global powers in the past, so will control of the new 'international commons' be a key to world power in the future. An America incapable of protecting its interests or that of its allies in space or the 'infosphere' will find it difficult to exert global political leadership.' [- 51

'Although it may take several decades for the process of transformation to unfold, in time, the art of warfare on air, land, and sea will be vastly different than it is today, and 'combat' likely will take place in new dimensions: in space, 'cyber-space,' and perhaps the world of microbes.' [- 60
For more on Rebuilding America's Defences read this.

Internet 2

Part of the Information Operation Roadmap's plans for the internet are to 'ensure the graceful degradation of the network rather than its collapse.' (pg 45) This is presented in 'defensive' terms, but presumably, it is as exclusively defensive as the Department of Defense.

As far as the Pentagon is concerned the internet is not all bad, after all, it was the Department of Defense through DARPA that gave us the internet in the first place. The internet is useful not only as a business tool but also is excellent for monitoring and tracking users, acclimatizing people to a virtual world, and developing detailed psychological profiles of every user, among many other Pentagon positives.

But, one problem with the current internet is the potential for the dissemination of ideas and information not consistent with US government themes and messages, commonly known as free speech. Naturally, since the plan was to completely dominate the 'infosphere,' the internet would have to be adjusted or replaced with an upgraded and even more Pentagon friendly successor.

In an article by Paul Joseph Watson of Prison Planet.com, he describes the emergence of Internet 2.

'The development of 'Internet 2' is also designed to create an online caste system whereby the old Internet hubs would be allowed to break down and die, forcing people to use the new taxable, censored and regulated world wide web. If you're struggling to comprehend exactly what the Internet will look like in five years unless we resist this, just look at China and their latest efforts to completely eliminate dissent and anonymity on the web.'
_______________________________________
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are the sole responsibility of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the Centre for Research on Globalization.
Dieter
deleted.
2mntn
Hello Molly,

It would appear from your interpretation of my post that you did not read mine very well. Let me bold a couple of the qualifiers in my statement. And, excuse me if you know this, but cross-over diseases are those that are able to migrate across species. The important part is to know that humans can be infected by diseases carried by other species - animals, birds, insects, etc.

You said:
You "sure the hell want it" ? You actually want something like this?
Mollie


QUOTE(2mntn @ Jan 31 2008, 10:11 PM)

NAIS works, as it applies to large produces of food for the consumer markets. And I sure as hell want it IF it will help keep cross-over disease like bird flu from coming to town. BUT it should not involve threatening people, putting their land ownership at risk and driving them further away from feeling and behaving like free men. And women. And I don't want the horse-police showing up at my door because one of my horse-chip transmitters just went across town!!

Everyone,

It is ironic that folks will complain about government until something disastrous happens, then they yell and scream that government should have protected them. Also interesting is that this is an election year and we are getting typical lip-service from political wanna-be's, who tell us how sick we are of this condition or that one and tell us how THEY will change things. And yet THEY fail to provide any detail with regard to what those plans might be, what makes those plans different and how they will fund them.

Yes, laws can be changed. All it takes is time, money and the will of the people. Right now, there are many more people who do not care what NAIS is all about - it does not affect them in any substantial way. They say, OK, so I need to microchip my dog or kitty - no big deal and I've got no time for you radicals who tell me I should oppose this.

OK - so think about the problem of National Security, or National Health, or National Anything. Citizens, for the most part, would like to go about their lives and not have to think about things of National interest, much less worry about them. I want my family protected from terrorists. I want my family protected from epidemic disease. I want my horses, cows, (you name them all) protected from epidemic disease. I want me and my stuff protected from other people who are irresponsible.

Imagine for a moment that YOU are put in charge of the program to manage, control and prevent deadly diseases in the animal population of a large nation. Where would you begin? You first thought might be something like: "I have no idea what kind of animals we're talking about, nor do I know where they are or how many there are! How can I begin to think about managing a program with no definition? Where will resources be sent, if needed, and what will the cost be?" I'm sure there are many, many more thoughts to go with this!

NAIS is trying to get a handle on managing national disaster-type events as relates to all the animals in our country by getting a count and a location and a way to keep running tabs on those things. People can work to do whatever they think is necessary to make the program work. The government of this Nation was set up to allow for this.

Just some more stuff to think about,
Ray
An American Breeder
Ray, managing disease so there is no national disaster is one thing; NAIS is nowhere noway about managing disease. It is ALL about taking property and all animals/creatures for the government, actually NAU, North American Union. It is ALL about taking away the U.S. Constitution.
Nadj al Nur
Ray............are you playing devil's advocate, here?
Cathy
Dieter
deleted.
2mntn
Hi Liz,

I'll whoa, but I won't back up just yet. wink.gif I will admit that my statement was not well crafted, as it's far too simplistic for a complicated subject. I would need a whole bunch of ifs, ands, buts, wherefores, and then be forced to conclude by saying that, of course, there are exceptions and if any one of the qualifications stated are not met, then forget the whole thing.

I don't have the time, nor the knowledge to present a "chaos theory" on this stuff. One of those that would show how when a certain butterfly, stopped for a moment on a leaf in a remote rainforest and flaps it's wings only once (instead of a minimum of three flaps) will trigger a domino effect of incidents ranging from seemingly ordinary to severely bizarre - but resulting in tragic flooding in a drought-stricken country. But that is about the sort of study needed.

You may, of course, ask for supporting detail. I don't have any. I'm working with the data given and my own experiences to project some likely outcomes. Some is good and some is not so good - most is just conjecture because it has not yet happened.

Can you say "plague"? Let's go extreme and revisit Europe in the year 1347, or so. Ok, Ok, what does this have to do with NAIS? How could NAIS have any impact on preventing a plague? NAIS is but a cog in a bigger wheel. And on the subject of 'property rights' - I don't believe the government is trying to take them away, using NAIS. Why not? Because we, the people, have already given the government the authority to do this.

Think about it,
Ray
An American Breeder
snipped: NAIS is but a cog in a bigger wheel. And on the subject of 'property rights' - I don't believe the government is trying to take them away, using NAIS. Why not? Because we, the people, have already given the government the authority to do this.

Think about it,
Ray


My answer Ray. I have NEVER EVER given away to the government the RIGHT to take away my property, making me a stakeholder, and to take my animals as part of THE NATIONAL HERD. Through deceptive legislation, that people did not understand, there may be some aspects that the CFR people have passed as legislatures but this NAIS is nothing more than the throwing out of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Cheryl L
QUOTE (An American Breeder @ Feb 4 2008, 07:00 AM)
AHHH Cheryl

That is not true.  The tests have been being done in Europe and they will cause cancer.  It is not right now a high percentage, but then the chips have not been in the horses or animals for that long, so unknown what the percentage does with more time.  However, if it is YOUR HORSE that gets the cancer, is it then oh so what?  Just a small percentage and it is okay that my horse is dying?

No, I don't think you will feel that way.  Have to go again and find that link; if the photos show they are fairly gruesomel
*


Hi Liz,
I have my dogs microchipped and so do most of our customers, the oldest dog is 17.. We have never seen a Fibrosarcoma yet. Now..........Fibrosarcomas are linked to vaccinations, especially cats and that is caused by the adjuvant in the vaccine itself. We have also seen hideous reactions to vaccines in horses and having a whole chunk of skin and flesh missing.
If every livestock auction had a scanner and used them, I would most certainly have my horse chipped. May save him, if he were ever stolen.

Cheryl
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