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Razzmatazz
I used to be one of those that rolled their eyes just a bit when I first heard about NAIS - there go the conspiracy theorists again, great....

The more I heard about it, I looked more into it.... and the more I started to swing the other way.

I believe it was drought-stricken South Carolina (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) who held the hay hostage unless the buyer had an ID number.

A girl in 4H in Colorado disqualified for lack of an ID number.

More stories I'm sure that are out there, that we haven't heard of yet.

And people are STILL putting their heads into the sand, thinking this isn't becoming mandatory?? blink.gif

Dieter's quoting of Ben Franklin was SPOT ON!
Razzmatazz
I got this link off of a Yahoo group I'm a member of - an interesting article about the AHA, USDA and ESWG....

http://www.elowrah.com/2008/01/30/arabian-...inking-at-nais/

The timing and surprise element of AHA/PAT reconciling really has me wondering.... Why now? Why just at the time NAIS is really starting to heat up? Coincidence - or not...?
Chiron
Razzmatazz
Yeah, I already noted the exact same thing. Plus the return of the stallion reports!
ph34r.gif
I sorted thru the debris field in the "office" & found the Sept 2003 version of NAIS, all 72 pages of it. I am severly computer challenged but would be willing to get a copy or two made & sent to anyone who could get it into an online or email format.
My printer is down so would have to wait til I can get it to the copy shop in town.
Later today I'll peruse it & post a few of the scarier parts.
The parts covering the Premise ID # are far & away the most flagrant violations of our "Rights" as American Citizens.
Echo1
I am NOT in favor of this at all. I feel it is a violation of our constituional rights.

I did call AHA and was told we could quote their position on this from their website.

Here is the link to the article where they state their position and answers to common questions regarding this issue. It was dated January 30,2008.

http://www.arabianhorses.org/registration/...news_080130.asp


This is an important issue that we should stay on top of. smile.gif
Dieter
deleted.
An American Breeder
Beginning March, 2008 different breed registeries are to begin quietly registering the premises of their customers into the NAIS database. Nowhere does AHA/PAT say they are NOT doing this.

And what AHA/PAT is saying is that come January 1, 2010 NAIS WILL be mandatory/that is what they are in favor of supporting.
Dieter
deleted.
Dave
Check out www.farmandranchfreedom.org. They have recent government documents, a business plan and a users' guide for NAIS. Lots of fun reading for your spare time. Who has time to read this shit let alone comply with it?

Dave
Razzmatazz
This pulled off of the www.farmandranchfreedom.org site (Associations Positions page):

Arabian Horse Association (oral statement, 1/17/08) (the representative indicated that NAIS registration would not be required in 2008, but indicated that they may implement it in 2009)

We must keep clamoring against this to make sure this doesn't happen!
An American Breeder
Get a Post Office Box! Change your address! And when AHA calls saying your address is not valid/not current tell them, as one person did, I don't trust you since you support National Animal ID. And don't give them your personal address !!!!

Don't kid yourself --- AHA is going to implement it. So glad we never let US Arabian Horse Registry go down, at least it will be some kind of a safety net for those of us willing to keep our rights to our property, our land, and to our animals!!!
2mntn
I wrote an email to the Idaho Congressman, Mike Crapo, expressing my concerns.

NAIS is implemented - might as well get used to it. The "fine print" on how NAIS will apply to the little guy, the horse owners, folks with a few chickens, pigs, goats, sheep, etc. is still to be determined - at the State level. This is where we can only hope to have the rules and regulations be crafted so that the freedom of the individual is not trampled upon too badly.

Following is the Senator's response:

Dear Ray:

Thank you for contacting me to express your concern with the United States Department of Agriculture's (USDA) National Animal Identification System (NAIS). I appreciate knowing of your concerns and welcome the opportunity to respond.

As you know, the NAIS was initiated in 2004 to improve the traceability of livestock movement, which helps to maintain animal health and improve food safety. The system's main goal is to enable the identification of animals that have been exposed to serious foreign diseases within 48 hours of exposure and to prevent the spread of such diseases. Under the NAIS, animals are registered and tagged with unique Animal Identification Numbers (AIN). When an animal is sold or transported to a new location, the owner updates the animal's registry information. Thus, the information can be used to track-and hopefully to prevent-the spread of serious or highly contagious animal diseases like Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)-or "mad cow disease." If tests reveal that an animal is infected with such a disease, the present and all previous owners are notified. Animals from those farms and others in the area that might have been exposed can then be quarantined to prevent an epidemic of the disease. Presently, the NAIS is an entirely voluntary program.

The spread of animal diseases such as BSE, avian influenza, and Exotic Newcastle Disease magnifies the importance of a plan to track and identify vulnerable animals. I strongly support the Idaho State Department of Agriculture (ISDA) animal identification program, and I am pleased that the USDA provided funding to ISDA to boost our ability to quickly identify and prevent the spread of animal diseases. Idaho is leading the charge at a time when inaction could cripple our livestock industry in the event of a widespread outbreak of disease and ultimately put human lives at risk as well.

The damage to the U.S. economy in international trade following isolated outbreaks of serious animal diseases also has made it necessary to establish an animal ID program that will preserve a healthy food supply and protect our agriculture industry. The details of the program continue to develop and will evolve further during implementation to meet important considerations. Any new policy must be implemented with care to prevent placing burdensome, unnecessary, and expensive mandates on law-abiding citizens. Livestock and poultry producers must be confident that data entered into the database will be kept secure and confidential. The NAIS should also give states the flexibility to implement the program in a way that accounts for the specific needs of particular states.

NAIS remains a work in progress, and the USDA continues to welcome input on the program's design and implementation. If you have further questions about NAIS or would like further information, please refer to the website, <a href="http://www.usda.gov/nais">www.usda.gov/nais</a>. In the meantime, please be assured, I will work with fellow members of the Senate Committee on Agriculture and Members of Congress to protect the interests of all Idaho farmers, animal producers, and owners by continuing to monitor development of the NAIS and considering any other legislation pertaining to animal identification.

Again, thank you for writing and please keep me informed on this or other matters of importance to you. For more information on issues before the U.S. Senate as well as news releases and photos, visit my website, http://crapo.senate.gov.
An American Breeder
Ray, same sh*t I received. I sent him back a reply about how much bunk this crap talk was and told him I felt about him and his NAIS. Funny thing, he never answered that reply.
Dave
Ray,

You're right, the battle is at the state level.

I checked out CA and OR and premisis registration is optional. Niether website stated that microchipping is optional, but I assume it is. Anyway, it better stay that way.

Do any of you think a resolution at AHA's 2008 convention is in order? Also, say Colorado makes NAIS optional how can other states force AHA which is based in CO to force compliance by its non-CO members?

NAIS should be a topic on national talk radio.

Dave
2mntn
Dave,

Given the volume of interstate activity, the reality for individuals is going to be compliance with whatever the 'toughest" state happens to be. This could be difficult for transporting, as some shippers tend to meander all over the country, picking up and dropping off along the way.

I don't think a Resolution would be effective, as entities and individuals must abide by the law, no matter what their membership may think or say. Any breed registry can meet their stated purpose, if not their budget, without regard to NAIS. So at that level, involvement would be futile.

AHA involvement, as I think more about this, could benefit the membership through lobbying efforts BEFORE the laws are passed. This might be effective at the Federal level, but I don't see AHA being able to support lobbying efforts at the state level. I think local groups need to get involved and make sure their local law makers know how they feel. Communication by those lawmakers, hearings, etc. is the key. Knowing exactly what is being proposed and having an opportunity to voice objections and offer alternatives is probably where we're at with this. Politics sucks, in my view. Sometimes coalitions are effective - groups who send a representative to hearings, etc. filing petitions signed by lots of folks, those sorts of things are about where we're at, I think.

Ray
An American Breeder
Vote Ron Paul, the one for the consitution.

He, alone, of all those running for president has stated he is opposed to NAIS
2mntn
He can't win and he wouldn't be able to stop NAIS if he did win. His team of economic advisors would see to that.

NAIS works, as it applies to large producers of food for the consumer markets. And I sure as hell want it if it will help keep cross-over disease like bird flu from coming to town. But it should not involve threatening people, putting their land ownership at risk and driving them further away from feeling and behaving like free men. And women. And I don't want the horse-police showing up at my door because one of my horse-chip transmitters just went across town!!

Ray
Dieter
deleted.
An American Breeder
NAIS is not about controlling disease/ it is ALL about CONTROL. Nazi style or worse. We all know that, or should if we open our eyes, problem is so many people do not do that.

If we all say Ron Paul cannot be elected, then he won't. If we say we are voting for him, come he** or high water, then he has a chance and WE have a chance. The CFR wants the wars, the Tri-lateral Commission wants total Control, and the B's want complete control of the money and the economy.
jsimicek
We got a couple of email bulletins from the Texas Animal Health Commission this week. One - The Texas Governor has just appointed a new Animal Health Commission board - all Corporate AG producers. The old AHC was listening to the protestors and delaying implemention of most of the NAIS plan. Time for them to go and be replaced with those that will move the plan forward. And Two- Texas is now requiring all Dairy cattle to be tagged and tracked.

Texas has a large Mennonite and Amish community. A great number of them Dairy farmers. They cannot accept the ID system because they see it as the Mark of the Beast predicted in the Bible, not to mention a violation of their religious strictures about technology. Amish Dairy farms in Wisconsin have already started closing as they have to accept NAIS or not be able to sell their milk. Texas Amish farms won't be far behind now. After listening to one of their explanations as to why they couldn't accept it and the references they made to the prophesy, it indeed made me take another look at it and in fact any Christian could claim the same and not accept the ID and tracking based on the belief that it is violation of our religious beliefs. Freedom of religion is guranteed to us, if we all band together, the Supreme Court will have to uphold that freedom if all start crying religious persecution. There has already been talk that the Amish community may have to leave the US to avoid this persecution. Clearly not what America is about and real black eye to have its citizens forced to leave from a burecratic law. Truly scary that we would ever even hear about the possibiltiy of this in our country.

With the property rights violations and religious freedom violations, surely a class action suit could be brought that could stop this.

Sandy
An American Breeder
Hey those biggie corporate owners had to find some way to get rid of those pesky Mennonite and Amish competitors. They have the PERFECT way here.
Dave
There's much more concern about NAIS on this forum than on the other one I go to.

I have another thought about NAIS and that is how it will impact organic foods. I understand that organic food is produced smaller farms as opposed to what might be called agribusiness. We already pay a premium for organics. We may have to pay more for organic eggs, organic milk, etc. I don't think USDA thought about that.

Another thought is that we may have a government of law not men but has it occurred to anyone that we have too damn many laws to follow. Does anyone give thought to the cost of enacting a law, not just the monetary coast but time, etc.

Dave
An American Breeder
How is NAIS going to control the wildlife? By killing all the domestic stock, down to the last chicken, that is in the designated areas. No compensation. Nada. And the wildlife will then check clean, but not before they kill everything we own.

Then we have to buy all our meat, food, eggs from the huge corporations.

Don't think they will? The USDA has already started doing this.

Say they declare that West Nile Virus is in your area: they simply kill every creature they can find in a 2 mile radious.
adnan
Someone said, "it's implemented" and to "get used to it".. WOW!! If that isn't how to knuckle under and let others control OUR FREE COUNTRY!!! I don't just bow down to things I disagree with- I fight. We ALL have to STAND UP AND SCREAM how this will hurt our industry and our lives!!! We DO NOT have to let these stinking CONTROL FREAKS have their way!! THIS IS AMERICA, DANG IT!! I forwarded the "Farm and ranch"... website to EVERYONE I know and am encouraging everyone to get EDUCATED and fight this!! DON'T EVER GIVE UP!! WE CANNOT LET THIS RUIN OUR INDUSTRY!! KILL OUR HORSES!! OR TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHTS!!

Jodi
Dave
Amen

QUOTE (adnan @ Feb 1 2008, 11:45 PM)
Someone said, "it's implemented" and to "get used to it".. WOW!! If that isn't how to knuckle under and let others control OUR FREE COUNTRY!!!  I don't just bow down to things I disagree with- I fight.  We ALL have to STAND UP AND SCREAM how this will hurt our industry and our lives!!! We DO NOT have to let these stinking CONTROL FREAKS have their way!! THIS IS AMERICA, DANG IT!!  I forwarded the "Farm and ranch"... website to EVERYONE I know and am encouraging everyone to get EDUCATED and fight this!! DON'T EVER GIVE UP!! WE CANNOT LET THIS RUIN OUR INDUSTRY!! KILL OUR HORSES!! OR TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHTS!!

Jodi
*
Dave
I checked the Colorado government website and found that NAIS is voluntary in Colorado. I assume that means that AHA doesn't have to comply with NAIS. This is where a convention resolution could come into play. I think we should contact AHA and the registration committee in particular.

Dave
Dieter
deleted.
2mntn
QUOTE (adnan @ Feb 1 2008, 11:45 PM)
Someone said, "it's implemented" and to "get used to it".. WOW!! If that isn't how to knuckle under and let others control OUR FREE COUNTRY!!!  I don't just bow down to things I disagree with- I fight.  We ALL have to STAND UP AND SCREAM how this will hurt our industry and our lives!!! We DO NOT have to let these stinking CONTROL FREAKS have their way!! THIS IS AMERICA, DANG IT!!  I forwarded the "Farm and ranch"... website to EVERYONE I know and am encouraging everyone to get EDUCATED and fight this!! DON'T EVER GIVE UP!! WE CANNOT LET THIS RUIN OUR INDUSTRY!! KILL OUR HORSES!! OR TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHTS!!

Jodi
*


Jodi,

I'm Ray, not "someone"! dry.gif I do not appreciate having my comments restated in the way that you have done. I am mostly libertarian, when it comes to government, or anybody for that matter, telling me what I can and can't do and then charging me money for it, to boot!! And I'll be the last s.o.b. to knuckle under to anyone!! And that is NOT what my statement advocated.

Where were you in 2004 when NAIS was introduced? We needed rabble-rousers then! Things can still be done, but believe me, you had better study the issues and understand what you're talking about BEFORE you go off on a rant.

This particular genie is already out of the bottle. Folks had better be getting their three wishes made and right quick, because this genie can turn into a monster. My point was that, not to roll over and play dead! Take the example of Homeland Security. Have you been anywhere by air, lately? Do you think that ranting and raving now will change the fact that you will need ID, you and all your stuff will be scanned, you'll be asked to empty all your pockets, take off your shoes, belt, hat, and anything else they decide to ask? I used to walk right up to the jet and get on. Do you think I'm happy about the current methods?

Well, I could be happy if by doing these things, a plane-load of kids, moms, dads, grandparents and families - people - are spared another 911. Go back over this thread, pick out the web sites posted - there is a LOT of info to get under your belt. I need to do the same.

Dave - don't be naive - Colorado and other states are voluntary...for the moment!

AAB (Liz) - if you remember your history, as relates to hoof and mouth, some of what you have said may happen. But I think some of your statements are a little far-fetched. Like this one: "Say they declare that West Nile Virus is in your area: they simply kill every creature they can find in a 2 mile radius." West Nile has been in our area - big time! The only creatures they tried to kill were mosquitoes.

Ray
An American Breeder
Ray, I agree about WNV; however, that is NOT how it is written on the "now" hidden original document of NAIS. That is the point I wanted to make.

I well remember the terror of the German farmer my mother married when the "government agents" came to test the farm cattle way, way back for Hoof and Mouth. We were clean but that did not stop his fear all his cattle would be killed, pushed by a bulldozer into a pit, and he would be compensated something like $10 a head.

And now today, Hoof and Mouth really isn't that bad -- it is a virus that passes and does no other harm!!!! We had its equivalent in a way down in New Mexico, that stomatitis. Put people out of business and then the vets said, Oh Well, guess it wasn't that bad after all.
2mntn
Hello liz,

Point taken! Thank you.

Ray biggrin.gif
An American Breeder
Ahhh Ray, the document, and my friend says if I just wait (but we don't need it) she will get the number, section and page where that is on that document.

And it is 6 kilometers, which I guess is closer to a 5 mile radius. Kilometers? that ain't US measurement, that is another UN speak.

And we were SCREAMING in 2004 and nobody would listen!!!! Conspiracy is what we got sneered back at us.

I will not fly anymore and won't until this is done away with. A terrorist I can fight back against; I cannot go fight against my government with a gun. Call me then a domestic terrorist.
An American Breeder
My friend says the wording in the NAIS document is "de-population" of every susceptible species in the 5 mile radius. And that is the only "solution" offered in the NAIS document for disease control.
2mntn
Oh, I know you, and others were screaming. Liz Dieter posted a thread on NAIS quite a while back. And yes, especially in 2004, anyone going against the "party line" was fitted for the Mel Gibson straight jacket. laugh.gif

Ray
tjc
Hansi,

A friend of mine moved to Florida a few years ago. I have been sending him information against NAIS all the time. He finally acknowledged one of the emails and stated he thought it was a good idea, as people in his area didn't even seem to know to vaccinate their horses. So there may be something getting started in Florida. I will ask him, but he never answered my email when I told him I thought it was as bas as gun control.

Tina
Dieter
deleted
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
I just got my 2007 census of Agriculture form and it is much more extensive than the one I got last year... Now you have to account for land, irrigation, field crops, grain storage capacity, hay and forage crops, woodland crops and maple
syrup, nursery, greenhouse, floriculture, sod, mushrooms, vegetable seeds, and propagative materials, vegetables, potatoes, melons, fruit, nuts, berries, cattle and calves, poultry, hogs and pigs, aquaculture, colonies of bees, other animals and livestock products this includes horses, mules, milk goats, angora goats, meat goats, llamas, bison, deer in captivity, elk in captivity, rabbits including pelts, mink including pelts, other livestock report ostriches and emus, mohair, Other livestock products including semen, embryos, worm castings and manure sold..production contracts and custom feeding, value of sales, then it goes into the financials... This is what must be reported in Michigan... Under penalty of law a response is required.. The penalty under (Title 7 US Code)...This is nuts...Estimated time for filling out this form is 50 minutes... AND big bold letters THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION... It would be one thing if I was selling a food product perhaps, but horses are considered a luxury item and I don't get subsidies for raising them...

Liz Dieter is correct about prices here in Michigan... Beef Prices are rising over $8.00 for a few pounds of low grade hamburger...Pork used to be reasonable and chicken too but now they are even getting pretty pricey...

Just some things to consider... Tracy
Dieter
deleted.
Cheryl L
Tracy and Liz,
You both need to move into my area. I am still paying $2-$3 a lb for hamburger. Just picked up a Pork Tenderloin for $2.99 lb. The butt roast was a $1.49 lb.
Guess what I am making? Pork and Peanut Curry. MMMMMM!

Sorry, just had to interject a little. I would feel really bad fo the Amish. Although, they along with our Native Americans, should be able to find a way around it.
Cheryl
Dieter
deleted.
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Hi Cheryl,


The thing that really kills me is it is shopping at Save-a-lot.... The package was a 3 pounder for $8.93.. You used to be able to get a pork loin that was almost as long as a yard stick for $13.00, now it is in the low $20.00... I have been noticing prices going up steadly.. It could be that many people are just giving up and leaving this area as jobs are few the cost of living high.. Could be lack of competition... The gas stations in Gaylord are owned by one family and whenever competition is even thought of well the project is killed immediately... We are still waiting for a Meijers...Of course I live up north and unfortunately when the winter sports like snowmobiling, snowcross, and the Mackinaw Mush happen all prices skyrocket so the businessmen can gauge the Fudgies while they are up north...

I would advise you enjoy your peanut butter pork now that you spread the word about shopping and prices you might find some competition smile.gif ... Larry and Barb like grilled pork chops with mango sauce...Unfortunately, I would waste more in gas to come buy from your markets... Next time they invite me for dinner I will have to stock up and I will have to do it during Asparagus season so I have a real bang for my gas dollar.... Bon Appetite...


Tracy
An American Breeder
What is so terrible is that people just don't seem to get it !!

Stakeholder is not AN OWNER. It is a Caretaker!!!

When they show up at your door and demand you sign over the property rights to your land and to any animal you own and if you don't YOU GO TO JAIL, as they have already done in Wisconsin!!!, then it is TOO LATE !!!

Where they are going is that everything will go to the government, cattle, goats, sheep, horses, pigs, llamas, alpacas ALL will go into the National Herd owned by the government -- more likely the North American Treaty -- NAFTA. Along with your land. And people, if you read in that NAIS document, the original one hidden now, that is what they talk about. THE NATIONAL HERD!!!!
adnan
HI Ray,
you can be offended all you want, but I simply did not look back on the forum to see exactly "who" it was that said it.. because it did not MATTER who said it, simply that it was said and that was my response.
Where was I back in 2004 when this was first implemented? Let me tell you- I did not HEAR of this until under a year and a half ago because the government likes to keep things secret- excuse me for my ignorance.. Now that I am aware of it and it's impact, I am contacting everyone I know and everyone I DON'T know to fight against this. Just because something is implemented, does not mean it cannot be changed... that is what America is about- standing up for our beliefs, fighting for them..
I am also aware now that you are a libertarian, although I could have told you by your comment that you and I are on a different plane of thinking- which equates to a different government belief.
Cheers,
Jodi
An American Breeder
I would like to Join Ray then for I have had it with both the Democrats and the Republicans. I call them Democans.
Ralph
The flip side of this argument, which I would like to present, is protection against indiscriminate horse breeding by backyard horse breeders. If there is anything we desperately need in America is to tightly control who should be breeding horses and who should not. There are many people in America who own horses and don't have the financial means to properly care for them (nor the intelligence to understand that only a small number of horses should be bred and these horses are more than likely, not in their backyard). We have an overabundance of abuse and neglect cases and rescue organizations that find it increasingly difficult to save all the horses. If NAIS can somehow significantly impact and control the horse industry for dramatic, positive change, then I am all for it and would gladly support the initiative.
adnan
It's funny , "An American Breeder" that you should attempt to "side" against me.. because in another post about someone I will not mention, you "sided" with her although she has owed and continued to owe a whole lot of people a whole lot of money and knowingly during this time (the last 7yrs) has continued to purchase and breed more animals that she cannot afford and has pawned off on nice people for them to care for at their expense.. sounds real responsible to me. Obviously, if you agree with a woman that does that, you and I REALLY think differently, also.
Jodi
Nadj al Nur
Ralph, I agree with you that there are too many horses going to rescues, etc. However, this situation was not caused by the small breeders that only produce a handful of foals in a lifetime. It was caused by INVESTMENT breeders in the eighties and early nineties. We are now having to deal with the results.
Tracking horses is NOT going to clean up that mess.
Cathy
BaileyArabians
I seriously don't need any more government controls over my life.
Rules are already in place for any criminal activity, they just need to be enforced.

If penalties are not stiff enough, then perhaps that should be addressed.

Kathy
Patricia Hampton
Ralph, I am truly shocked that you would make such a post. You find it satisfactory to set back a few incompetent breeders by giving the government the authority to slaughter anyone and everyone's livestock without compensation on a whim? It has already been done. Linda Fallice wrote a book about having her sheep stolen and slaughtered by the USDA because they thought her sheep might have been exposed to a disease. Tests came back a few months later that showed her sheep had been perfectly healthy. She was, of course, put out of business. Doubt me? Search her as an author on Amazon. Hers is NOT an isolated incident. Do you think that the lives of my precious Abayyan horses would be of any more value to the USDA than Linda's sheep? Would your riding horse? Would all the horses in the stable?

The ONLY stated remedy for a SUSPECTED disease outbreak is the immediate slaughter of all suseptable species within a ten-kilometer radius. It doesn't matter whether or not the disease is fatal or treatable or transmissible to humans. The Homeland Security procedure is mass slaughter and burning of the bodies. The proof is from the GAO:

"The USDA that wants the power, without warrant or legal appeal, to kill all livestock and wild animals, both diseased and healthy, with in a 10-kilometer outbreak of a disease (GAO Document 05-214). They euphemistically call this “depopulation”.

Should USDA officially confirm the presence of a disease, such as FMD, the affected herd and all cattle, sheep, goats, swine, and susceptible wildlife—infected or not— within a minimum 10-kilometer zone around the infected farm would be killed.
:
If the disease were to spread beyond the initial zone, authorities would continue to quarantine and kill animals until the disease was “stamped out.”
-GAO Report 05-214 pages 31 & 34"
Here is the link to the GAO document: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05214.pdf
An American Breeder
I got sneered at on one forum when I said the Homeland Security "goons" and in my book when they come to take our land, our property, our animals they will be "goons", would be doing the enforcement.

Start thinking people. What is coming next?
2mntn
Jodi,

I didn't say I was offended. I said I don't like my statements being rearranged to put a different spin on them. Either I am using too many words, or you are not paying attention to details. I said I am "mostly" libertarian. I don't claim allegiance to any party, because the parties don't convince me that they have consistent views. But neither do I subscribe to "no government" is best government politics. Somewhere in almost every aspect of life there is a middle ground, a something for everyone, a common sense approach that leaves room for changing direction if things aren't working.

I appreciate your position on NAIS and more power to you on your efforts. I did not mean to suggest that I was any more effective than anyone else at trying to get the word out on NAIS and what it could mean. In fact, when I first heard about it and read the "doom and gloom, the sky is falling" prophesies, I was very much skeptical of the folks who took that position. I am almost always skeptical of "government" programs and am almost always skeptical of those who predict great disasters to befall us if we don't do something to stop them.

The great thing about our country is that we can all have a voice. One of the drawbacks is that it sometimes takes a LONG time to get things done. And once they are done, it can take a very LONG time to get change.

In any event, you and I can have different political views, but still share the same opinions on any given subject - like NAIS, for instance. So we can be allies and we can be friends. A difference of opinion is a small matter, among friends. biggrin.gif

Ray
Ralph
Guys:

I have heard all the arguments about this being America and how we are all free to do whatever it is we want, regardless of who we may hurt with our own private "freedoms". The fact of the matter is that there are way too many horses out there of all breeds who suffer. And unfortunately, they don't have a human voice to say how they suffer. They are helpless. There are not enough rescues to save all the horses. And yet Janey or Billy or Mary can take ol' Betsy in the yard and breed her to create an Arapaloosien or whatever designer horse breed a human mind can conceive, despite the fact that ol Betsy is a ewe necked, over the knee, sawy-backed nag, who hasn't eaten in a couple months because her owner hasn't had the money to buy a $10 bale of hay. We need licensing in this country for horse ownership and definitely for breeding, to control the unwanted population of horses. Since people are not able to do it, then the government will have to control the people who are unable to control themselves. mad.gif

Ralph
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