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An American Breeder
I have listed below faults in a horse, some are categorized as Major and some as Minor. This is the way the halter judging is Finally ! Supposed!! to be done here in the US. Some of these I personally do not agree with. Not that there is not a fault, but on the severity.

If you post, PLEASE select which faults and WHY you believe this is a major fault or a minor fault.

This should be a very educational opportunity for the breeding season is about to begin in serious in the northern part of the world and should be serious food for thought in the southern part of the world!

Major Faults of the Head and Type
A. No tail carriage
B. Overshot jaw
C. Undershot jaw
D. Convex head
E. Excessively close set ears
F. Excessive narrow head
G. Excessive length to head
H. Small eye
I. Glass/blue eye
J. Course muzzle
K. Course, meaty features
L. Lop ears or cow ears

Major Faults of the Neck and Shoulder
A. Low set neck
B. Swan neck
C. Ewe shaped neck
D. Poor hinge
E. Thick throat
F. Excessive heavy neck
G. Straight shoulder
H. Flat withers (mutton withers)

Major Faults of the Back, Loin and Hip
A. High croup
B. Long coupling - long back
C. Low in the back (sway back)
D. Shallow body
E. Rafter hips
F. Short croup
G. Short hip
H. Steep sloping hip

Major Faults of the Rear Legs and Feet
A. Post legged
B. Bow legged
C. Long cannons (high hocks)
D. Straight or short pasterns
E. Coon footed
F. Stands wide (base wide)
G. Camped out
H. Stand close (base narrow)
I. Curb

Major Faults of any Leg
A. Club foot
B. Dished foot
C. Contracted narrow feet (mule footed)
D. Splints caused from faulty conformation
E. Ring or side bones
F. Epiphysitis
G. Bowed tendons
F. Ossolets
G. Founder (laminitis)

Major Faults of Movement
A. Irregular strides
B. Stubby, choppy stride
C. Lacks coordination
D. Paddles out
E. Wings in

NOW for the Minor Ones, if you agree and if not, WHY

Minor Faults of the Head and Type
A. Wry tail
B. Low set tail
C. Narrow eye set
D. Large coarse ears
E. Wide set ears (sheep eared)


Minor Faults of the Neck and Shoulder
A. Straight neck
B. Short neck
C. Excessive crest

Minor Fault of the Back, Loin and Hip
Hernia

Minor Faults of the Front Legs and Feet
A. Toe in (pigeon toed)
B. Buck knees (knee sprung)
C. Capped elbow

Minor Faults of the Rear Legs and Feet
A. Stands under (sickle hocks)
B. Toes out
C. Cow hocked
D. Capped hock
E. bog spavin
F. Thoroughpin

B] Minor Faults of any Leg [/B]
A. Broken axis of pastern and hoof
B. Feet out of balance
C. Wind puffs (joint capsule hygronias)
D. Splints with no faulty conformation
katarin
...
morabene
The front of the horse carries 70% of the weight of the horse. Don't forget the front legs with calf knees, tied in tendons, light bone, crooked knees, offset cannon bones, short or long upright pasterns, long cannon bones, etc. My technical favorites: wonky legs and noodle legs. Hmmm.
Martha
katarin
...
morabene
Noodle legs, well, they're not definitly not straight legs. Both terms I reserve for a set of legs with a herd of faults. Its just easier to say then go through the list of leg problems. You probably will not find either in a class A show, but hey sometimes they show up.

Martha
jsimicek
I am with Martha, they left off some of the most major faults of the front legs. And I agree that most of what I would consider major faults are listed as minor. they are faults but I disagree as to the severity of the fault. I would consider a thicker throatlatch a minor fault not a major as deep throatlatch can be indicative of better air flow under stress. I also don't consider a little extra length to a face a major fault as it depends on the overall horse as to whether the head fits the horse. Nor would I say a horse that is a tad long in the back has a major fault as it is dependent on the way it ties in to fit in to the whole conformation as to how big a fault it is and whether it will impact the horse's performance of soundness. To me a major fault is something that will affect or impact the soundness or performance of the horse, if it is a breed off type issue that in no way impacts the health, soundness and performance of the horse it is a minor fault. A slightly lower tail set is not a major fault in my opinion either as it often indicative of a more athletic horse than a totally flat croup , I interpret the "relatively level croup to be in realtion to the croups of other breeds not tables. I also disagree with founder or laminitis being a major fault- it is the result of illnesses or trauma not a conformation issue and is often not diagnosable without exrays. In my opinion whoever made up the list needs to go back to school and take an anatomy and physiology of the horse class and a form to function class. This looks seriously skewed to overlook some of the biggest faults in the ring right now.

sandy
An American Breeder
Ho Ho Sandy, this is the way the halter classes are to be judged in all Class A shows as well as all the National Shows. And I did leave out the schlera in the eye which is considered by AHA to be a major fault, I simply can't agree with that one!!!!

Major Faults of the Head and Type
A. No tail carriage
B. Overshot jaw
C. Undershot jaw
D. Convex head
E. Excessively close set ears
F. Excessive narrow head
G. Excessive length to head
H. Small eye
I. Glass/blue eye
J. Course muzzle
K. Course, meaty features
L. Lop ears or cow ears

Major Faults of the Neck and Shoulder
A. Low set neck --- That would sure have taken out Ibn Hafiza!!!!!!
B. Swan neck
C. Ewe shaped neck
D. Poor hinge
E. Thick throat
F. Excessive heavy neck
G. Straight shoulder
H. Flat withers (mutton withers)

Major Faults of the Back, Loin and Hip
A. High croup
B. Long coupling - long back --- HEY !!! If there is a long neck there will be a long back; is the coupling weak is what I would say is a fault, but Major???
C. Low in the back (sway back) MAJOR again?????
D. Shallow body
E. Rafter hips
F. Short croup These are again MAJOR????????
G. Short hip Same, MAJOR ???????
H. Steep sloping hip

Major Faults of the Rear Legs and Feet
A. Post legged
B. Bow legged
C. Long cannons (high hocks)
D. Straight or short pasterns
E. Coon footed
F. Stands wide (base wide)
G. Camped out
H. Stand close (base narrow)
I. Curb

Major Faults of any Leg
A. Club foot
B. Dished foot
C. Contracted narrow feet (mule footed)
D. Splints caused from faulty conformation
E. Ring or side bones
F. Epiphysitis THIS IS GENETIC?
G. Bowed tendons
F. Ossolets Unsightly but I do not believe a Fault but one of training!
G. Founder (laminitis) This is a genetic MAJOR fault???

Major Faults of Movement
A. Irregular strides
B. Stubby, choppy stride
C. Lacks coordination
D. Paddles out
E. Wings in

NOW for the Minor Ones, if you agree and if not, WHY

Minor Faults of the Head and Type
A. Wry tail
B. Low set tail
C. Narrow eye set
D. Large coarse ears
E. Wide set ears (sheep eared)


Minor Faults of the Neck and Shoulder
A. Straight neck Just what is a straight neck????
B. Short neck
C. Excessive crest

Minor Fault of the Back, Loin and Hip
Hernia --- WHERE did this one come from? Hernia'a are now genetic????

These are major faults to me, Toe in (pigeon toed), and toed out.

A capped elbow is unsightly but I do not think any kind of fault

I can go along with these listed as Minor Faults of the Rear Legs and Feet
A. Stands under (sickle hocks)
B. Toes out
C. Cow hocked
D. Capped hock
E. bog spavin
F. Thoroughpin

Broken axis of pastern and hoof and Feet out of Balance --- this is MAJOR to me
CenturyOak
QUOTE
C. Low in the back (sway back) MAJOR again?????


I'd agree with this one as it does affect performance and soundness both. If you're talking the case of old broodmares or extreme age which can cause swayed backs that's another story... but that would pretty much preclude them showing halter anyway.

I can't understand why swan neck would be a fault minor or major? huh.gif
phanilah
FWIW - the IAHA/AHA Judge's Handbook has always had a split out of major/minor faults. It's just now with the new judging/scoring system that more information is being made available to exhibitors...which I think is a GREAT THING!

QUOTE (katarin @ Feb 14 2008, 06:08 PM)
Good idea† biggrin.gif

Is it on purpose that there are only minor Faults of the front leg?


Actually, there is a large section of major faults for the front leg...it must have been inadvertently left out of the original post.

QUOTE
From a (former) riders point of view I'd consider toes in a rather major fault, because they affect the horse's movement more than toes out. Is 'buck knees' the same as 'bench knees'?


Both toed in and toed out affects a horse's movement. A toed out horse will wing their feet inward when they move and run the risk of interference (that's why it's considered a major fault). A toed in horse paddles outward and while not "correct' for movement, there is no chance of interference (that's why it's considered a minor fault). Of course, one has to consider the degree of fault - but given equal degrees of deviation, toed in is considered the lesser evil than toed out.

Buck knees is over at the knees. Bench knees is having offset cannons.

Beth
An American Breeder
Try and find something, if you are one of the committee working on such, so I went to that other colored horse forum and found it easily.

Here are the Major Faults of the Front leg --- just so we have all the legs of a horse blink.gif

A. Calf knees (sheep knees)
B. Bench knees (offset knees or offset cannons)
C. Bow legs (bandy legged)
D. Knock knees (knee narrow)
E. Straight or short pasterns
F. Coon footed (excessive sloped pasterns)
G. Tied in knees (tied in tendons)
H. Toes out (splay footed)
I. Long cannons (high knees)
J. Base narrow (stands close)
K. Base wide (stands wide)
L. Toe in (pigeon toed)
M. Buck knees (knee sprung or over at the knees)
N. Capped elbow
An American Breeder
QUOTE (CenturyOak @ Feb 14 2008, 07:23 PM)
snipped  If you're talking the case of old broodmares or extreme age which can cause swayed backs that's another story... but that would pretty much preclude them showing halter anyway. 

I can't understand why swan neck would be a fault minor or major?  huh.gif
*


Not necessarily would it preclude a horse like Fadjur passed his prime, say in his twenties. So if sway back or low in the back is to be used then I think it should specify an age. Agreed?

What makes a swan neck by definition? Would be interesting to know how that is defined.
phanilah
QUOTE (An American Breeder @ Feb 14 2008, 08:14 PM)
Try and find something, if you are one of the committee working on such, so I went to that other colored horse forum and found it easily.


Not sure what that is supposed to mean. But the entire document re: the new system is on the AHA site, under the Education tab in the Judges & Exhibitors School section. The table showing the faults is found is the last 2 pages of the document.

http://www.arabianhorses.org/competitions/...gProcedures.pdf

Beth

Edited to add: My comment about the previous judges handbook was simply to let people know that the minor/major faults table isn't new, now it's just being distributed to those outside of the school (although it does appear to undergo changes periodically).
phanilah
The thing to keep in mind re: the table is that it is a guideline for judges and I suspect as the system gets used more, there will be some tweaking to the system. For clarity, I'm not on the committee, this is just a hunch I have.

Ultimately, the judge has to rely on their knowledge and experience when it comes to taking the table and the breed standard and the horse before them and then calculate a score. There could very well be cases where a severe deviation of a "minor" fault may end up being more of a concern than a minor deviation of a "major" fault. IMO it's one of the drawbacks to trying to do a table, because it's not set in stone and there are other factors that come into play.

Beth
DemelzaH
The short croup, short hip "faults" have me stumped... many if not most Arabians have a shorter croup or shorter pelvic length especially when compared to breeds such as the TB! Rather than listing faults and encouraging judges to spend all day looking at horses standing still, how about taking the whole horse into consideration, it's overall balance and harmony... if a horse has a "short croup" or a short pelvic length, yet has the best rear end power in the class, should it be penalised?!
Also the heavy neck/throat as a major fault... why encourage people to sweat their horses even more than they already do? Think about how a neck functions... if a horse carries his neck beautifully and moves well, why penalise it for not being pencil thin?

Pictured grey: horse with the shortest pelvic length on my farm, yet with the most powerful rear end movement (naturally moves propels herself "uphill", jumps like a cat). Why?
Pictured chestnut: horse with heaviest neck on my farm (no sweating or conditioning) yet carried with grace, helping her to gallop without falter down this steep rocky slope. Why?
CenturyOak
I'd wonder about a definition for swan neck as well. Maybe it's a different context than I've heard it used everywhere else?

As far as swaybacks, there is a big difference in a back that has lost condition in old age and is a bit dropped and in a true sway back. I would forgive a dropped back more in a mare that had carried multiple foals than I would a stallion... no matter how well known he was smile.gif I also would hope that whoever was showing an elder horse would take the time to condition the topline to some semblance of topline before showing it ? I have two 22 year old mares with multiple foals each both with wonderful strong toplines and no dropping or lowering of the back at all. One of the mares has 9 registered foals listed... I would expect them to be dropped well before a stallion who never carried a foal to term.

Swayback affects movement, affects the ability to round and move under themselves and is overall unattractive and difficult to fit tack or rider to. When you make excuses for a fault like this you do a great disservice to the breed in general. This is not a fault I would ever breed on and do consider it a major fault. We did breed one mare prior to her going swaybacked and the foal (gelded) was fine thanks to a stallion with a great topline, but we never rebred her again because of this problem and the fear that it would carry on. Personally I rank this very high on my list of major faults.
phanilah
I meant to add this to my previous post...but I'll just start fresh with a new post.

The table IS NOT a stand alone document and it's only part of what a judge "thinks about" when judging. Although I'm glad more judging info is being provided, I do wish the additional aspects of the breeding class sections from the judges handbook were also included...it's not just about the table.

Here is the breed standard:

AR102 Breed Standards.
Comparatively small head, profile of head straight or preferably slightly concave below the eyes; small muzzle, large nostrils, extended when in action; large, round, expressive, dark eyes set well apart (glass eyes shall be penalized in Breeding classes); comparatively short distance between eye and muzzle; deep jowls, wide between the branches; small ears (smaller in stallions than mares), thin and well shaped, tips curved slightly inward; long arched neck, set on high and running well back into moderately high withers; long sloping shoulder well laid over with muscle; ribs well sprung; long, broad forearm; short cannon bone with large sinew; short back; loins broad and strong; croup comparatively horizontal;
natural high tail carriage. Viewed from rear, tail should be carried straight; hips strong and round; well muscled thigh and gaskin; straight, sound, flat bone; large joints, strong and well defined; sloping pasterns of good length; round feet of proportionate size. Height from 14.1 to 15.1 hands, with an occasional individual over or under. Fine coat in varying colors of bay, chestnut, grey and black. Dark skin, except under white markings. Stallions especially should have an abundance of natural vitality, animation, spirit, suppleness and balance.


It's the judges job to select the animal that best fits the above description - that includes taking faults related to soundness and faults related to type, the overall harmony and balance of the horse, movement, etc. weighing everything and coming up with a result. The winner should not only be a sound, well conformed horse, but it should also look like an Arabian....so there will be type faults that don't affect soundness, but do affect the overall appearance of the horse as being 'Arabian'. These aren't just breeding classes, they are Arabian breeding classes.

Beth
phanilah
QUOTE
I'd wonder about a definition for swan neck as well. Maybe it's a different context than I've heard it used everywhere else?


JMO, but this is also one of the drawbacks to the table re: the terminology used and how it can mean different things to different people.

Many people refer to a swan neck in the postive, meaning the horse has a nice, pretty, elegant arched neck. But, if you look at the shape of a swan's neck, it's more S shaped, which isn't what you want for a horse. So, I suspect the table refers to the more S shaped neck. Clear as mud? wink.gif

Beth
Eyegor
The shape of the neck has been described as approximating a Palm frond, leaving the neck at an appropriate angle at an appropriate depth, (not at an acute angle but smoothly and a taper upwards) leading to a natural arch at the poll with an open throatlatch. A swan neck would be for me a narrow neck all the way from withers to poll with inadequate depth at the jowl and restricted room for an air passage.....
Palmfrond is just how I prefer them..
CenturyOak
QUOTE (phanilah @ Feb 14 2008, 09:09 PM)
JMO, but this is also one of the drawbacks to the table re: the terminology used and how it can mean different things to different people.

Many people refer to a swan neck in the postive, meaning the horse has a nice, pretty, elegant arched neck.  But, if you look at the shape of a swan's neck, it's more S shaped, which isn't what you want for a horse.  So, I suspect the table refers to the more S shaped neck.  Clear as mud? wink.gif

Beth
*



Yup.. mud would be one word! biggrin.gif ph34r.gif
clearcreekarabians
I have a problem with listing any leg fault as a major fault compared to a head fault. Conformation is more important than the head. That said, yes, I want them to look like Arabians but leg faults are harder to correct through breeding than a plain head. And they are BREEDING classes. IMO--These are MAJOR leg faults.

Major Faults of the Head and Type
E. Excessively close set ears
F. Excessive narrow head
G. Excessive length to head


Minor Faults of the Front Legs and Feet
A. Toe in (pigeon toed)
B. Buck knees (knee sprung)
Minor Faults of the Rear Legs and Feet
A. Stands under (sickle hocks)
B. Toes out
Minor Faults of any Leg
A. Broken axis of pastern and hoof
B. Feet out of balance

Iím with Demelza Hoogeveen on this one. Each horse needs to be evaluated on their own merit. But Iíd give my left arm to watch some of these halter horses gallop without falter down a steep rocky slope, or any slope for that matter. LOL!!!
Barbara
Nancy Bourque/Ibriz Arabians
I've always understood that a swan neck was a longer neck with a heaviness at the underside of the neck where it joins the chest. I think it's the heaviness/thickness at the underside of the base of the neck that is objectionable. It prevents flexing the neck and getting the proper headset when collecting the horse. I haven't thought about that one for a while but I would assume it's associated with some of the shape of a ewe neck as well on top.
ShaeMcC
QUOTE (Nancy Bourque/Ibriz Arabians @ Feb 15 2008, 04:16 AM)
I've always understood that a swan neck was a longer neck with a heaviness at the underside of the neck where it joins the chest.  I think it's the heaviness/thickness at the underside of the base of the neck that is objectionable.  It prevents flexing the neck and getting the proper headset when collecting the horse.  I haven't thought about that one for a while but I would assume it's associated with some of the shape of a ewe neck as well on top.
*

I asked around about the "swan neck" and this is what I've been told"

- A swan neck ties in lower to the chest, interfering with the shoulders' ability to swing freely, also referred to as a "nest." Just picture chest + neck = nest)
- A swan neck has a backward curvature and/or is at too vertical of an angle for the horse to be able to properly collect. (also referred to as an "upside down neck")
- A swan neck also makes riding very difficult, and the horse often has a tight headset to neck while remaining in such a vertical position. (picture a seahorse)


Just a bit of what I've heard around!
Shannon
An American Breeder
I am getting some feed back from these Major and Minor faults as I have been asking

So how about these?

Tied in at the Elbow? Major? Minor? (to me it is Major)

Excessively High and Flat Croup? Major? Minor?

Camped out behind in the Rear Legs? Major? Minor? (to me this is Major)
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