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HLM
Dear All

As you all know I am an advocate for testing horses and love the endurance races.

the last race a few days ago in Al ain, UAE - 80 miler- was won with an average speed of 25 km
(15,6 mph). There were 70 entries and 60 eliminated with lameness. Ten finished.

Another one in January- a 100 miler- with about the same speed.
this means the horse has to full out gallop all the way and that is INSANE
over such distance. there were 107 entries and 74 eliminated for lameness.
Thirtythree finished.

Not even in the war, or even the USA Pony Express had their horses do this.
In my opinion this is total ignorance and cruel, poor sportsmenship and something has to be done about this. A rule has to be established to give penalties for overusing a horse. What is one to prove with this inhuman testing?

I dont know what kind of rule should be established, what norm to be set, but I dont think it should continue as is now. Horses on the flat track only go a short distance in comparrison, and ask for utmost speed.But you cant do this on a long distance race..

There is no way that most horses can endure and stay sound unless something is being done.

Just my opinion, what is yours please?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Tous crins
Hi Hansi,

Were there horses you sold in there?
Isn't that scary?

This looks like victory at all cost and disposable horses.

Christine
Dakhilah
Hi,
I personally think this is much to much , really not fair to ask from any horse and totally unrealistic!!...
Like Tous crins says ....Victory/winning at all cost ..........and THAT is never a good thing in my humble opinion mad.gif....
Greetings sas.
Arabian Stud Europe
Can't believe people are sooo cruel!
Here in Holland we have a minimum and max. speed for the contest.
If you are coming in with an average of 25 km/h when only 20 is permitted, you are disqualified.
HLM
I am calling on all endurance riders world wide.
I am calling on all endurance ride veterinarians worldwide

No, had no horse in it, answer to the post.

Here are my sincere recommendations:

1) Each 25 miles should have
a) a designated distance to "trot" m/m 5 minutes
cool.gif a designated distance to "walk"- m/m 5-8 minutes
c) a designated distance to gallop, whatever speed the horse can safely do..

thas means each 25miles of each ride regardless of actual milage should have these recovering rest distances in it.

Most all of us love our horses, want to compete honestly,fairly and gallantly and a win is not worth ruining a horse for live.

I am on my way to the UAe tomorrow, so can follow this thread until tomorrow
noon only and pray that everyone of you speaks up, gives their comments and enduces other to do the same. Only then can we all do something about this
issue. WE ALL CAN STOP THIS UTTER AND INSANE NONSENSE!!! (I am not shouting, I am SCREAMING)

I feel certain that the governing people of the endurance race in the UAe or whereever are doing their best, but this best does not appear to do the best.
Please my friends all our horses come first!!! that should be an "Order".

Take care and please help the horses, all of them. Thanks so much

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
julieM
Dear Hansi,

This in not new, in fact it is happening all over the world. Perhaps a few more finishers but the speeds are much the same, over the last 3 to 4 years we have seem many horses come and go, the average( front runner) endurance horse in FEI rides lasts for around 3 to 4 rides rides if he is lucky. We see horses that have never done anything become overnight champions.
It is rather like the cyclists the products used are not tested or testable and often used a few weeks before the rides, or old products which are not on the list are used. An example would be a terrible product called serapin,you will not see a lame horse with this one, but the horse could break aleg and not feel a thing.
Thankfully here are many dedicated vets that invent new methods to stop what is happening,
at the WEG 2006 in Germany we saw a complete turn around in the way that the ride was ridden simply because the riders were warned that if I needle was found in or anywhere around the seperate country areas the whole team for that country would be eliminated. The organisers also ensured that the public was as close as possible to the vetgates, and had people walking the track just in case a rider slipped off for a few minutes.
The best way for the vets to actually stop the riders who use the betablockers, is a recheck around
30 minutes after they pass the vet in, as the heart beat will often rise, but there is talk that this will disappear from FEI rules. If things dont change I see a serious split between breeders/riders producing horses for up to 100 miles and trying their best to product a horse with a long career, and the others who last aroud 12 to 18 months.
In Belgium they call it negative doping, simply because it cant be traced.
Sorry for the spelling, but I just had to quickly answer this one, (my spell check is in french) but the horses, dogs and better half are all waiting to be fed.

Juliem
HLM
Dear JUliem

I am a firm believer in the good old American Saying" If I dont like something I dont talk much about it, I do something about it.

why on this earth did nobody do something about it? rules are menmade, common sense has to prevail.

Read my earlier post and I pray that everybody out there WORLDWIDE IS
now doing their part to help save the horses.

Believe it or not, in all my life of riding I never had a lame horse through training or riding. I got lame ones while in pasture, stepping on something, but never anything serious. Of course lameness can happen just by making one wrong step, so I am not saying that I am special, more so that I was lucky.

I do not know who is in charge of these rides, which also should be fun. Even "Hildago" had his rest periods. But then he was owned by a very loving human partner.

What worries me so much is, what happens to these horses coming home crippled?

when I watched the 100miler in Dubai a few years ago I was appolled over the riding style most all had. It was just plain terrible. Most all should have to go back to basics and learn to sit a horse, learn how to preserve it under saddle and not look like a piece of butter on a hot potatoe, arms like fly swaters and legs like
drum beaters. that is not riding, that is total torchure for horse and yes, the riders.

All of you, please post, suggest, recommend, advise and let's get together WORLDWIDE and stop the slaughter.

thanks and God bless you all

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
DrSabine
Hi Hansi,

in the UAE and other arabian countries the horeses are raced on prepared tracks. Flat, no holes, no deep sand... the speed which is achieved in those countries can never be achieved in Europe or the USA. In most cases the race is not won for big money, but for HONOUR, which means a lot more to the owners of the horses.

The problem is, SOME horses are able to go this speed over such a distance. Most of them fail, which sheds not quite the best light on endurance rides.

I prefer:
Championships where the achieved miles per YEAR is honoured over a single race win
The possibility to stop a race before the full distance and get the distance counted for the horse
Orientation via maps, no markings on the route (could to be difficult in the desert...)
If necessary, defined maximum speed allowance

Back to the roots. To finish is to win. But I'm afraid you can't turn back time..

Sabine
1rider
People ask me what do you get for finishing first on tevis" a buckle and the acomlishment, same as finishing last" in the middle east you win 150,000 or 1,500,000 cant rememberr think it the latter and a four wheel drive. my feeling on this is they need to change the courses and eliminate the crews only at the checks. instead of five trucks fallowing you all day. this might slow them down also a year end milage award so that finishing becomes more important. anyway they are hard on them and the way they ride also doest make it any easier..Ken
1rider
Yes DrS your right its the honour then the money because i know the shiehk doesnt need it. they rehab the ones with problems and give them to friends or locals or they put them to pasture i do know that because i talked to a lady that has 2 at her house in europe. Ken
Heirloom Arabian Stud
HANSI,
Here in the US, this type of thng really isnt allowed in sauntioned races, and We also have CTR rides that you are NOt allowed to canter or gallop a horse at ALL, And it is strickly enforced, Frankly, I,m not sure what we can do here to stop what goes on over there, It is my opnion that anyone who would race a horse like that, doesnt care about the horse, only the win, there for,, makeing the horse despensible, and probably often neglected or disposed of after such a race if it pulls up lame,

But i must admit, in my years, jorneys and yes a few races, ive seen cowboys that race, often unsupervised, and run there horses as hard as they can the distance of the race, NO, never seen anyone do a 100 miles, but the trama to the horse is much the same, nose bleeds, lungs, thumps, very heavy excessive use of the whip!
its sad, and all we can do really is stay away from such races if we care about our horses!

Mike
HLM
Thanks friends for replying

But I can not accept what you say is happening and obviously condoned. Of course, I know that endurance races differ from each other, but here we are talking about the Middle East, the desert countries.

I see no reason why markers cant be set when and where the horse has to trot or walk and gallop.

On hard terrain the horses slow down and with it catch their breath some what.
they dont have that chance in the desert rides. therefore, each area should
establish a form safe for the horses. and it is up to the organization to immediately
establish covering rules, rules which are HUMANE!!.

Please friends, dont ever accpt in life what is unreasonable, fight to set it right.
If you truly love horses, than start fighting for them please.

I dont believe that point system you pointed out will work either. It still means that some run their horses half to death. But a point system can still be established once these rides are ridden in a sensible, fair to the horse, manner.

So please, no more excuses, rather give ideas and dont stray away from those trot and walk times, those are important.

Form a deligation and take the bull by the horn. Just dont ever give up doing what is right please.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms





.
fhl_stables
Hello Hansi.

So according to what you've posted, you could've kept your horse at a steady pace, rested and continued w/o tiring the horse out AND still come in - not winning - but definately placing b/c everyone else were too stupid and ran their horses into the ground. Idiots!

mad.gif
Nadj al Nur
Perhaps it would be better if equal prize money, and equal honour was given to the horse that came in in best condition????
Cathy
1rider
Hansi, in every race, there are horses ran to hard. and they do have manditory hold six times from 30hour to hour.. i dont believe you can control the pace during the ride or should you.. but gate and goes would help they are pionts where you have to let the heart come down to criteria then you go again tevis has many.. so at these you couldnt come in hot or youll take to much time...so a slower horse not getting held at these would do better then someone going to fast.. Ken not an easy solution..
HLM
Dear fhl

What makes you think I would have lost? My then rested horse over the areas I mentioned would have picked up strenght and speed and the last few miles gave their heart. TP Shalouk (AK Shah Munifeh x Serenity Mashara, a S.Mamlouk daughter )on the 50miler at the EE and did the last ten miles with two miles per minute and had excellent condition when arriving. Col. Tom and wife Maggie trained him.

Remember now, when the horse is so well trained that it actually feels weighing half its weight, just like the rider, you have an edge. Dressage riders know that well.

It is not that you win, how you win.And to a true horseman/woman THE HORSE COMES FIRST.

I would ride just like I would feel, if I was the horse.

However, if this did not make the horse win, but came home sound and can go on for years to come, that's just great with me any time.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
1rider
QUOTE (fhl_stables @ Mar 17 2008, 08:44 PM)
Hello Hansi.

So according to what you've posted, you could've kept your horse at a steady pace, rested and continued w/o tiring the horse out AND still come in - not winning - but definately placing b/c everyone else were too stupid and ran their horses into the ground. Idiots!

mad.gif
*

Hansi she was agreeing with you in a sarcastic way toward the bad riders ken
HLM
Well Ken, makes sense.

However, I am betting on my horse having a superior long reaching trott and walk and making up in the gallop with these rests.

Mind you they can be cut down by a few minutes, just so the horse catches its breath. As you know, a lot of strategie is involved riding distances, just as it is on the flat short distance tracks.

Also these rests could be employed on 50 and up milers, leaving the 25 miler alone.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
That's also a good idea, Cathy.Anything is good, if it is good for the horses.
These riders need to realize that it is flesh and blood they are sitting on, feeling as we do. When I watched some of them my back started hurting, feeling what these horses did..I guess they never heard of center of gravity either, eh?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
paelmchen
Dear Hansi,

I hope you remember what happened at the world equestrian games at Aachen with the team from the desert.............they didn┤t pass the last vetcheck...disqualified.......too high speed...their horses were overstrained.

Their big protest meant nothing to the german vets, that┤s the way to go, to protect the horses.

ciao Roland Palm
HLM
Thanks Roland, I did not know. Yes that is the way to go, but not all Vets will do this. therefore a rule has to be established to safe the horses.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Dear Hansi,
Many Endurance horses suffer when purchased by people with large budgets and therefore the horse becomes "disposable" as the owners can always go out and buy another ready made horse and ride that into the ground too. This does not only apply to riders from the Middle East sadly this happens worldwide when the riders are so competitive that the horse becomes a means to an end. However there are many caring owners who buy a horse for endurance and it becomes their friend for life.

How can we stop the hard riding happening? I dont know the answer to that. There are very stringent rules and vet checks during the FEI races and we have to rely on the integrity of the vets to make sure that the horses do not continue if they are not capable.

The problem with the Arabian is they give their all!

All the best,
Jenny.
HLM
Dear Jenny

Okay, but why drive the horses to exhaution and then eliminate? Cant we find a rule which prevents such exhaution?If riders would at least the last two stops-100 miler- or the last one -80 miler- be given a mandatori rest, would this not help?
It's then, I think when the horses run a bit on empty. Just resting after each 25 milers does not appear to be adequate, considering the many lame horses.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 18 2008, 01:02 AM)
Dear Jenny

Okay, but why drive the horses to exhaution and then eliminate? Cant we find a rule which prevents such exhaution?If riders would at least the last two stops-100 miler- or the last one -80 miler- be given a mandatori rest, would this not help?
It's then, I think when the horses run a bit on empty. Just resting after each 25 milers does not appear to be adequate, considering the many lame horses.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*

gbfahne.gif Sadly Hansi many of these riders have only one goal in sight and will push their horses to the limits to achieve that goal. It seems that even elimination after a days riding and effort does not teach them to be more careful the next time. The other problem is that adrenalin in the horse whilst competing will sometimes mask lameness and other problems until the horse stops. More stringent rules could be applied but unless the rider has the decency to remember that the horse is flesh and blood they will always push to get that extra mile in their efforts to win at any cost.

I am constantly amazed when I am riding in what I consider "training rides" (not races just 20 to 25 mile Graded rides) how people fly past me on their horses calling out "please may we pass", then they go past with their horses eyes bulging and covered in sweat. I carrry on at a slow but ground eating trot because I know that within five miles I will overtake them once they have exhausted their horses, then I say "please may I pass" and I go by with my horse relaxed and as dry as bone. Then they have gloomy faces at the end when the vet has failed their horses because the pulse rate wont come down or they are completely stiff or lame. But a few weeks later you will find them doing EXACTLY the same thing all over again......they never learn. Last week Shuwaiman Al Bahrain did a 20 mile Graded ride, he started on a pulse of 36 and vetted out at the end on a pulse of 37 and got his Grade One red rosette and he never broke into a sweat! A friend of mine is one of the top UK endurance riders and she says races are won by 'tactics' not speed. She gains extra time and miles by bringing her horses into vet gates slowly and being able to present to the vets within minutes of arriving back at the vet checks. She works all day and feeds her horses before and after work ,a very dedicated lady called Lesley Dunn her horses and achievements can be seen on her website Warren Hill Arabians.
kind regards,
Jenny
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 17 2008, 08:50 PM)
Perhaps it would be better if equal prize money, and equal honour was given to the horse that came in in best condition????
Cathy
*

gbfahne.gif Hi Cathy ...here in the UK we always have a "Best Condition" rosette and it is awarded by the vets. They select the horse who has completed the race and been presented to them for vetting in the best physical condition. It is an award that is highly sought after and one that the riders seem to value as much as finishing in the top three places. The winner of the race does not necessarily win this award. The first 100 mile race that Krayaan Jesra completed he was awarded the Best Conditioned horse after completing 100 miles rosette. Last summer after completing his second 50 mile race ride Shuwaiman Al Bahrain won the award for Best Condition horse.
All the best,
Jenny.
Nadj al Nur
It's the same here Jenny, but I was talking about the "big money rides" in the UAE. Perhaps if it was equally prestigeous to have the best conditioned horse, there would be more horses finishing sound?
Cathy
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 18 2008, 03:50 AM)
It's the same here Jenny, but I was talking about the "big money rides" in the UAE. Perhaps if it was equally prestigeous to have the best conditioned horse, there would be more horses finishing sound?
Cathy
*

gbfahne.gif Oh, I see what you mean Cathy. Trouble with the 'big money' rides is that many of the riders are very young men on 'testosterone' overload.....sorry gentlemen but it's true. I have a son so I have seen it first hand only in his case it was endurance motorbikes so it didn't matter that they came home needing repairs. Nature made men to be competitive so unless they are well supervised by an older and wiser man they are going to set out to win at any cost.

It's the young bull v old bull story. Young very excited bull says to his dad .

"Dad, dad, look there's a field full of pretty heifers down there, I'm going to run down there and choose one and make love to her until I wear myself out."

Dad says to young bull.

"You go ahead and run down there and choose yourself a heifer and make love to her. I am just going to walk down slowly and when I get down there I am going to make love to the rest of 'em. "

Jenny.
julieM
For the last several year France has tried everything possible to reduce speed and cut down on the doping, this is a known fact. Amateur and professional rider status has now been established for 2008. For the last 2 years the first loop of international rides has got longer and longer and is now around 40 km but it doesnt seem to be slowing the horses down, but riders who's horses suffer metabolic problems are sanctioned. Alot of these problems do come from bad riders having no control .
The FEI decided that for 2008 any rider with a horse that suffered 2 metabolic problems within 6 months of the World Championships in Malaysia would not be allowed to participate. However it seems that it has now been changed and the rider is not sanctioned only the horse.! NOTE the time frame of six months before the championships in August, (January and Febuary)the 2 most important months for endurance rides in the arabe states dont fall under the sanctions.!

Another serious problem is that when a horse is found positive for doping by the FEI the rider is often suspended for a few months, but nothing is done about the horse, no controls the health or welfare of the aniimal concerned is completly ignored, infact it can be ridden a week later. I believe that the horse should be suspended with health checks put in place and a mandatory dope test (paid for by the rider/owner) before being allowed to compete again. this would I am sure help to cut down on doping. Certain people would like us to believe that doping is not a problem in endurance, its a well talked about subject and the people who dope are known, the horses always follow the same pattern

At a ride in france in 2007 a junior rider came into the first 3 vetgates(100km in to the race) each time crying, because she couldnt stop her horse during the race. This horse went on to finish the ride in the TOP ten. In 2006 the horse was qualified in small local races, certainly not a fast horse, never in good condition and not fit. It will be interesting to see what happens this year. Each year around 40% of the horses are replaced and never seen again.

This problem is not new and not country related, children are riding in international rides up to 120 km they ride as juniors with no weights qualifing horses that would probably never qualify for international competition with an adult rider. Once qualified the horses then move to senior status with adults, make 1 or 2 very fast rides, then they are finished.

The amount of horses that are disapearing should not be ignored. Some people believe that horses that dont make it in the show ring can be recycled in endurance, being cheap they are purchased and used, many of these horses are now paying the price. Over the past few years big prices have been paid for winning horses at the race, but this is no longer the case, since Aachen a certain Sheikh seems to have stopped buying in europe, others have taken over, but the prices are much lower and not very interesting.

One thing that I have noticed in is that more and more part breds or even other breeds are being used it seems as if numbers of pure bred arabians is slowly diminishing.

Hundreds of horses have been sold to the arabe states for endurance, the majority have been seem or hear of since, the small percentage that we hear about sometimes finish the ride, yet alot of these horses won at least one ride in Europe before being sold., At the European Championships in Compiegne France in 2002, 4 of the Belgian teams 6 horses sold at the ride to a buyer from the Arabe States, only one of the horses, Chanice de Tilleulle (winner of the European championships) has participated in a ride she sadly was eliminated very early on and has never been heard of since.

I am not saying that all endurance riders in the arabe states are responsible there are many good rides who take great care of their horses, many Europeans are also to blame for this situation, horses have been prepared to win one race simply to sell.

There are many good riders and trainers in the world who prepare horses over a long period of time
and their horses have long careers. Sadly they now fall into the minority

Juliem
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Juliem that is an excellent response and very informative. As I have only recently started into the Endurance world I haven't much experience of life at the top end of the sport although I did accompany the GB Team to Portugal last summer when my stallion Krayaan Jesra qualified to go with them. I was very impressed with the friendliness of all the competitors. The French team did exceptionally well but I think the award for the "hosts with the most" had to go to the USA as a lovely American lady in a stetson kept doing the rounds with tasty snacks on trays tongue.gif

A story I heard from my daughter a few years ago when she was "vet writing" at a ride was that a certain horse was presented to the vet having completed the second 25 mile loop. It was a very wet windy muddy day and the horse presented was a grey and had not an ounce of water or mud on it anywhere. The suspicion was compounded by the fact that the training stable he came from had seemingly brought along a lorry load of very similar looking grey horses???????
Jenny
julieM
Yes Jenny thats how it used to be, infact some riders were well known for always bringing two very similar horses to every ride, even though only one was registed. But in those days we used to laugh, even when they changed horses during the race.

The brits did a great job in Portugal and I think that the team choice was a good one. Please dont get me wrong I still believe in endurance its just that sometimes its hard to continue when its happening on your door step.

Regards

Juliem
HLM
Good morning everybody

thank you for your wonderful input and I am so sad to read what you all say. Never realized what is going on, so hard to believe for me.

Personally to me gallant sportsmenship is so important and it is a shame that
winning at any cost is more important.

However, I still feel we can do a something about it as I am not ready to give up or in. It might even start with teaching the riders horsemenship, etc.
So all, please continue thinking about it and come up with ideas.If men get get to the moon, surely we can get this subject straightened out.

I am on my way to the UAe today, so wont hear from all of you until end of this months., it is to visit a show/race and teach./train The latter is my love affair and anyone of you who is able to do it, please do. At least it will help some.

All take care and God bless you
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
1rider
some of the stuff that is mentioned from other countries sounds so ridiculous. switching horses you would be laughed right out of endurance and at tevis the top ten horses are all blood tested..why would you even do endurance if you have to do this stuff to win. i want a win because i have a hell of a horse and have gotten him in good shape, training, conditioning, feeding...ect then if i win its rewarding... ken
gwasurr
Thank goodness, in the USA we have the American Endurance Ride Conference!
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Hi Ken, I think this was pre blood testing days when people could get away with it. I feel like you and I only want to win on merit but I suppose if you are taking a big fat cheque off someone to train their horses and the only way to hold on to your job is to get a result at any cost then the temptation is to cheat. Sadly some people do.
All the best,
Jenny.
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Hansi have a safe journey and a good time in the UAE......nice time of the year to go over.
Jenny.
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