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HLM
Good morning everybody

these were the judges, etc listed in the Dubai show Program

Judging Committee
Dr. Gianmarco Aragno, Italy
Mrs Sylvia Eberhardt Germany
Mr Hassanain Al Nakeeb, UK
Mrs Renate Schibler, Switzerland
Dr Marek Trela, Poland

Guest Judges:
Expert. Mr Mohammed Essa Al Adhab, UAE
Mr Ahmed Ali Al Hamadi, UAE
Mr Vijay Murthi, UAE
Mr Patrick Buckley, UAE
Mr Neil Abrahams, UAE
Ms Alison Abrahams, UAE

Ring master: Mr Hasan Valsan, France

Disciplinary committee:
Mr. Essam Abdulla, Chairman, UAE
Dr Patricia Borstel, Belgium
Dr Abdel Wagab Ben Ali Amira, UAE
Mr Kais Ben Hadi Quelhazi, UAE

On the first page of rules it states:
CRUELTY
33) Excessive whipping, excessive stimulation by noise or intimidation, use of shock devices or infliction of pain by any means is forbidden in all parts of the showground,or stable areas, at all times.

Conduct of Halter Classes
19) Unruly horses may be ordered to withdraw at the discretion of the judge(s)

Disguising of Exhibits
29) No alteration of basic colour of the skin, coat of hoofes is permitted. Hoof paints, colourless varnishes, coat dyes, glitter spray and cosmetic operations including skin grafts are vorbidden.

31a) Inhalter classes horses may be fully or partly bodyclipped, subject to eyelashes being left uncut, hair inside the ears left unshaved and tactile hair left around the nose, muzzle and eyes.

In my opnion every one of the above rules were broken. None were enforced by the authorities appointed witnessing and condoning the incredible unethical and cruel behavior presented by the haendlers/trainers to the public..

Whyle the rules were printed with the agreement of the Ruler of Dubai, In my opinion he was greatly insulted through the negligence of the govenning bodies of the show , who disobeyed all or in part the printed rules and permitted an unforgetable cruel display in particular halter classes as well as the distasteful behavior of parties directly outside the ring area, including touching, banging and making disturbing noises on the inside of the ring wall putting most all horses into a francy and possibly creating life damaging marks on the young foals shown, when their dams were held by haendlers unable to protect their foals and also experiencing possibly life damaging marks..

While I am unware of any punishments to be applied, in question is whether any of the officials mentioned should never be allowed to serve again in Dubai, if all trainer/haendlers should receive the same punishment and if all price moneys should be returned to the ruler and/or donated to an equine educational course to which the culprits should be invited to attend and learn what gallant sportsmenship and proper caring of horses is.

I invite all you opinions please, as we all must now try to stop any re-occurence
at any other show and punish heavily any party who will not adheare. The welfare of all horses should be our first concern, as they are helpless and need all your protection. If you love the horses, I feel certain you will give your comments and help.

all have a grand day and God bless the horses
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms



.

. .
An American Breeder
It is going to take a lot more postings such as yours Hansi, in my opinion, before ANY changes will be made.

On another forum right now! there is a discussion on-going about how a certain judge used a "gaming of the score system" (how Dick Reed named it) to continue judging as has been the "old way." What was done, the judge just scored the one horse consistently in almost all the categories uniformly high and scored the other horse consistently in almost all the categories uniformly low.

Now you and I and others know that is not possible. The judges are either determined to continue as they have or they are totally unfit (untrained, un-educated) to judge. mad.gif

One judge is claimed to have stated that the only category they will have to give individual scores to are the legs and feet. That the judges could get called on; the other categories they can continue to do as "old."

More and more judges need to be revealed to the public along with the other officials who allow this type of showing -- did I call it showing? My bad. blink.gif

Liz K
jacksarabians
Even if we can't reach the aim we are looking for, we definitively must go ahead and try to change these bad uses ! It's awful to consider horses like "things" only in the show ring for the proud of the owner and handlers and money !
The best is probably not to take part to this kind of show ? congrats anyway for your courage ! Sure that a lot of horse' lovers will follow you ! Are we "human" people with an heart and conscience or not ? We have to choice now !!!
amarie
HLM
thank you dear Liz. you and Pat always step in and always are honest and afair and unafraid.

I am truly amazed that there are no other replies. did they not read it, or are there more gutless people in the world than I thought?

I cant be at every show, cant do as much as I used to at my now tender age, but will do all I can.

When some people start using the beloved Arabian horses as toys, doormatts to wipe their dirty feet on,. forget that it is a living, breathing beautiful creation by God, helples against what is dished out against them for the sake of ego and montary enhancements, everything inside of me turns and makes me continue fighting for their rights and survival and for the respect to be given to them, all of them, as they so rightfully deserve..

If only one person at any show, where things happen as in Dubai, would walk around and did as I did trying to stop it, and then give details over this forum and internet, some results might come about, and half the battle is won.

thanks again Liz and regards to Pat.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
HLM
thanks amarie, now two people replied with guts in their body.
As I said, may be my post was not read by others than you an Liz Kirmis.

Take care and God bless you also for your courage and good will.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
jacksarabians
You know, we wish to change a very special world, mainly directed by money and... as we know, money is the king of the world and, in most cases, people are selfish and pretty coward...
I speak about people who don't feel concerned... I know that others love and take care of animals ! Hope they are a lot...
amarie
tiawarra
I feel the biggest problem with trying to make changes in the Middle East is that many of the people who attend these shows...........especially on Fridays, are not horsemen, they are there to be entertained. On Fridays the crowd is always SO much larger than any other show day. The music MUCH louder, always MUCH more bag waving, screaming, shouting & banging.

I'm not exactly certain how this would be policed & look forward to suggestions.

Of course we have to keep in mind that the people who run these shows may just tell us to mind our own business! They just may not be willing to listen to outsiders.

Now let me say a positive for the shows I have attended in Egypt.

Almost always the horses have been very well presented. There have been times when a hadnfull have been slightly underweight, however Egypt had just gone through a summer of very high temps, so this has to be taken into account. I love the informality & spontaneity. The crowd input is very nice to see until it goes over the top. It is so very nice to see the many people involved with a particular horse, run out to have their pic taken when the horse wins. That would NEVER happen here & I think that's a shame. I very much enjoy when an owner does their little "war dance" when their horse wins....again wouldn't happen here. So you see there are good points as well as bad.

We just need to educate on animal welfare more, I believe. But when many of these countries do not even have human welfare education, then I think we are going to have a hard task doing this.

By the way Hansi, the one & only time I sat a judges exam here in OZ. One of the questions was " what would you do if a horse was unruly or dangerous"? I stated I would send it out of the class. I was marked down for this......& asked "HOW"? Easy you just walk over to the handler & say...."remove your horse from the ring please", end of story!

Of course these are just my own thoughts..............Debbie
karin
I have never been to the middle east so I can not give my opinion over it.
But last year I have seen a A show in Belgium and I have decided not to come there any more.........to me the horses were often scared, by the handlers or by the public, even more often.......this evening I was attending a stallion warmblood presentation in the NL and a part from music and the presentator there were no noices..people were asked to clapp when the horses had disappeared from the scene or the presentator asked the handler if it was allright to clapp when the horse was still around! the horses did panick a bit when clapping began..there were horses under sadlLe but also in hand, stallions or mares with foals, all the same with the presentator,.but in arabian shows the people start to shout or put their feet down when they like the horse.....not speaking of bags by personnel of the stables respresenting the horses or shouting like idios like I had witnessed last year, hell was I the only one? .......to keep them excited or to show their opinion, even worse.....I had a pity last year especially with the foals......I think a lot of things need to be changed......I see such a difference in showing the horses sometimes and it makes me a bit sick, the arabian world..how it has turned ..not even speaking about how it changed so fast into..what the people want out of an arabian horse lately..neck,dish......
And all apart from all this, do we really need all this make-up....foals shaved half? eyes who cannot look like they are really are? because there is so much grease around it..........

Sorry, I like the arabian horse, I used to like shows to learn and see the horses and their pedigrees but it makes me more and more sick.........

But a solution, I cannot give.......wish I could but there is more power for that...but there could be a sort of creation of people who wish this to change this....a lot of work.......if I

Sorry, I am not able to find a solution, too much money involved..I gues....but because of all this I am not going to shows anymore......

We are presenting the arabian horse as a doll...................some shows in Europe have dressage but rare.....there is a big gap between performing and shows......in warmblood horses over here, the NL f.i. it is linked! we shoudl try to go back to this.............they should perform if they can.........at least under saddle....the public should stay quiet,,,,,,,,and less make up..Now I think this is some idea..........but how to achieve this? I personnally have no clue...
karin
Well that was on honest reply. Maybe with some emotions involved....the subject is too vast to answer like this and to find a solution...and there are many things wich are involved. My answer to the questiuon of HLM, sorry if I go too far from her subject or mistreatment at shows is that we should starting to rearrange the shows like the warmblood presentations as in Europe...much more testing on performance, to see offsprings of stallions, to see the results of them in sport .....but that means that SHOW horses, if possible, are also being used in sport.......which is often not the case...even on low level to start..just under the saddle...make the gap more big.............that is a beginning........there should for ME a big stap going back .........no mistreatment in shows anymore...noises, wipes, excess make up and also more sport involvement with the show horses.......I think I am dreaming.......I invite people to form a team to promote this.......and present a kind of new idea.....maybe no changes due to money involved..but maybe then create something different.......
Jane Kadri
Dear Hansi,

The rules you posted are ECAHO Rules which should have been enforced by the DCís.

However, you will have noted from the DC list, that 3 of the 4 DCís are UAE based, and employed here. I do not mean any disrespect whatsoever to any of them as they are in a very difficult position as employees (we discussed the situation about employment and employees when you were here).

The Chairman of the DC Committee for the Dubai Show is also the UAE Registrar and is tasked with organising many of the shows here, plus he advises on selection of judges. I feel that there is definitely a conflict of interest in his position.

For such a major show, might it not be better to employ all DCís from abroad or at least for the majority of them, so enforcement of Rules could be applied without fear of them losing their jobs? In my opinion, it would certainly help.

While I am writing, I have to mention that there is such a limited panel of judges used here, some judging several UAE shows per year. I trust that wth the new ECAHO ruling, we will see some new judges from their extensive panel.

I am writing to ECAHO by the way for whatever good it will do sad.gif .
barbara.gregory
Unfortunately wherever there are people things like this will happen. There is no easy answer to this sort of situation. If everyone boycotted the show with no horses there would be no show but sadly that will never happen. many of these shows have virtually all the horses from the same area and the owners will see nothing wrong in what is happening.

I do think that the judges could make their feelings know in a polite way and refuse to judge again unless things changed. however, I doubt that would do any good as there will always be plenty of others who will judge.

Not sure what the answer is, Hansi, but agree it is not a happy situation.

barbara
HLM
Good morning everybody

I know of most excuses. And Indeed this is not just in the Middle East, it is apparently all over Europe and here too..

Dear Jane

In my opinion it were the judges who should have instructed the Stewart to stop the outragous nonense. All were foreigners.

It is possible when the officials were selected the committee was not aware of the incompetence of some. I had a least expected that the German and Swiss judge would have put their foot fown. So we cant blame all on the UAE, matter of fact what we can only blame them for is the wild behavior they must have felt is okay.. Most of the trainers where also foreigners.
and they are by and large to blame as some of them enduced certain people to committ this frivilous act. I overheard it personally.Those I know I have never seen showing without a plastic something on the end of their long whips either..Is this how you where taught, Trainers????

Therefore, if anybody should lose their job it should be the JUDGES/STEWART
and TRAINERS to NEVER BE INITED AGAIN TO THE UAE OR ANYWHERE-
ELSE.They broke the rules and insulted the Ruler of the UAE, actually all Dubai, just as the judges/stewart did. What they did is in comparrisson no different than athletes taking drugs and are eliminated. They truly should be ashamed.
They were also responsible for the impossible eye make up etc. which made even the prettiest horse look uglier than hell. It looked repulsive.

Judging anyway appears to have gone into no-where fast. I was told that a
Hengsteintragung" in Europe a horse was elimited because it was "fuefteilig"
Translation would be something like "has five parts"
Never heard of this remark before and dont know what it means, nor does the owner of the horse. When the judge was asked by the owner, he also could not explain what it meant., YET JUDGED THE HORSE! So he copied another judge and posibly misread or misunderstood.. Really now, what is going on, eh?

Personally, if I had to invite a judge to a show, I would scrutinize to find out his/her knowledge and attitude first.It is realy not that difficult to analyze a horse and recognize its gaits. And if the trainers put the head so high I cant see inside the ears of the horse, look into its eyes, OUT THE HORSE GOES-ELIMINATED.
If the trainer cant show the gaits/movement of the horse, the marks should be low.

The excuse it is all about money covers only a very small portion of Arabian horse breeders in the world.The majority of Arabian horse breeder/owners knows better.
And unless we stop this quickly, it will continue.And it can be stopped quickly.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
SKM
I am not talking in this post about shows in USA, as I have little knowledge of the show scene there, these are my own views, such as they are, about shows under the ECAHO umbrella. Although only a tiny percentage of registered Arabians are shown, the publicity given to the shows and especially the bigger ones is disproportionate. You only need to think of the topics at this forum over the years, before during and after big shows, to see what I mean. Other activities such as racing and endurance are barely mentioned. As a result many people get their first idea of an Arabian from these shows, and it is enough to put most of them off for life from ever owning one, as in so many cases they have been made to look like artificial, fire-breathing, barely controllable, mad monsters. So much for the true, people-loving Arabian horse ideal.

I am going to start from the premise that these big ECAHO shows are not going to go away, they are not going to be replaced overnight by sport-horse type shows, or shows with ridden classes at the forefront, after all these are what we had 10 or 20 years ago and they have been overtaken by these beauty-pageant, 3-ring circus type shows, so we have to deal with what is there.

Oddly enough, the people with the least power within ECAHO are the judges, they do not have much of a voice when it comes to making or enforcing rules, when they are in the ring they are very much in the hands of the ring steward and DCs as to the conduct of the classes, it sometimes seems that they are simply required to award points and go home, and are almost seen as 'necessary nuisances'. Since after most shows it is the judges who earn the most brickbats for their decisions, it is a pretty thankless task.

I agree totally with what Jane Kadri wrote about conflict of interest for DCs. The ECAHO DCs started as a good idea, and I must say first that there are several excellent, fair but strict ones and it is very evident when they are at a show, because there are less 'shenanigans'. An example of a good DC panel would be last year's ME Championships in Amman. However, and I have made this suggestion a number of times to different people with good links to ECAHO - I honestly think it is time that all DCs are completely independent and it's been my suggestion that a new group should be gradually brought in, from every ECAHO member country, and trained in ECAHO DC rules, BUT they should be from outside the ranks of the Arabian horse world, registries, breed societies etc. My suggestion if that they should be sourced from the mounted police and equine veterinary services, and even horse welfare bodies, which most countries have. After all the rules are not that hard to learn and they would have no fear of upsetting certain handlers or of any personal consequences from the owners and breeders and connections of the horses concerned.

Hansi mentioned the whip and bagwavers and how she asked them to stop in Dubai, but they would not. Really, I can understand that, as the only people whose orders/requests they would obey would be their employers, or an officer of the law, or they would risk losing their jobs. I cannot find the original ECAHO rule against 'outside interference' in the 2008 Blue Book - can anyone see if it is still there?

It is my view that the ECAHO 'cruelty' rules are very badly worded and hard for the DCs and/or judges to both interpret and enforce. As an example, the ECAHO rules say "Excessive whipping, excessive stimulation by noise or intimidation, ... is forbidden". I strongly believe that this is a rule that cannot be followed, because it is subjective, with shades of grey and open to interpretation. The big problem is - who defines 'excessive', and how? And no clear penalties are laid down for infringing the rule. Rules have to be black and white. Surely it is time the rule is changed, it should not be 'excessive' it should be 'none' - ie: zero tolerance.

Actually I don't like the word 'whipping' either as it implies repeated blows. I would prefer a separate rule along the lines of: "It is forbidden to strike any horse with a whip or any other implement on any part of its anatomy at any time anywhere on the showground including the collecting ring, showring, stable area, exercise area and parking area." Then it follows that it has to be made crystal clear what the penalty is if someone is caught - eg "Penalties for breaking this rule are: first offence: verbal warning; second offence: yellow card; third offence: red card and automatic disqualification of the HANDLER" (and for how long should be stated as well - Remainder of the show; x number of shows; Remainder of season.) Horses should not be disqualified, it's not their fault - the handlers should be. Racing has good rules for disqualification of jockeys for x number of days according to the offence but there is always a steward's hearing, mainly on the day of the race, with the right to appeal against the decision, and generally video evidence.

As a matter of course, all collecting ring areas at International shows should be covered by at least one wide-angle video camera or cctv. The show classes should also be covered - one camera on the horse being shown, another a wide angle covering all the others in the ring at the same time, eg in a championship. If that works, it could be extend to Nationals and C shows. I also think the stable areas should ideally be covered by cctv both for security and for prevention of abuse. CCTV set-ups are really cheap now, and can probably record onto long-play DVDs etc. Recordings to be used in evidence if necessary.

I now believe that we have got to the point where whips should be totally banned in all female classes, and in the colt & stallion classes a whip of limited length, or preferably an old-fashioned show cane, could be optional but permitted purely for 'steering' and in case a stallion needed and deserved a reprimand in the ring, for biting or dangerous behaviour or if another horse gets loose to fend it off. With no whips, the 'cues' from abusive training at home would be less useful. Most people recognise them now - the slow winding of the lead rein round the hand followed by a step towards the horse; dropping the whip towards the knees, a quick move of the hand towards the head and so on.

Actually I dislike the wording of the whole ECAHO 'cruelty' rule. What is meant by "excessive stimulation by noise or intimidation"? Do people really use electric shock devices on show grounds? So I'd suggest changing it to a separate rule: "The infliction of pain or distress on any horse by any means and the intimidation of any horse by the threat of the infliction of pain is forbidden in all parts of the showground etc etc at all times". + Penalties explained as above. Some DCs would have to be taught what intimidation is, though.

It is shameful really to our whole showing community that we even need these kind of rules! Surely it is ECAHO's responsibility to make rules to ensure that no horse should be ever be deliberately hurt or distressed at a show (and that includes that awful 'flicking' of the whip near the legs or sides of the horse) except in the case of a true reprimand being required, although again, that's open to interpretation, which could be explained at a hearing - ie horse bites handler or threatens/kicks another horse, handler hits horse once and immediately as reprimand = no penalty.

I would also like to see foal classes, especially those where the foals shown at liberty, and which are not sanctioned by ECAHO anyway, totally banned, unless the foal is shown in-hand alongside the dam, in a moderate and gentle and "old-fashioned" way, following the judging of the mares as a broodmare class, as they do in UK. Foals should not be 'posed'.

My final dream is for chains on show halters and thin bits for stallion bridles to be banned, to make shanking less of a problem, and for new rules specifically against shanking and circling at trot to be brought in. One can but hope. But whips should be banned first. Of all breeds, doing what is being done to the Arabian is a travesty of everything the breed has been, should be and could be. No wonder they are the laughing stock of most of the rest of the equine world, and sensible parents don't want to buy one for their children to ride.
HLM
Dear SKM

thank you so much for your input and I totally agree with your recommendations.

To change things overnight- cant be done?, I disagree. Yes, it can be done.Just have one detrimental punishment for prominent trainers etc, and things will change.
It can also help if the public, those who are also knowledgable and those who love horses would indeed intervene and protest openly, and loudly.If this is breaking a rule, so be it. More so if the judges have the courage to disqualify instantly what has to be.

Indeed it would be an excellent answer, if horsemen/women of the equine profession be judges and stewarts. Would one ask a trainer to examine a horse for purchase, of would one get a qualified equine veterinarians? I would think the latter applies.

Trainers are getting away with murder, many earning excessive renuminations and are put on a pedestall. Also this can be stopped.

Really, it is all up to all of us who object to adverse treatment of these wonderful Arabian horses, presenting a" Culture" of each and every country, and should never be tempered with.

I stated before, that the halter showing at the Ee here is done fairly good. But should any of us notice a bad behavior, breaking rules, or the judges/stewart not following rules, we must protest. We should also examine if judges copy their collegues conclusions. An if rules hurt the horses, then we must all try to change them.

All take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
An American Breeder
In reply to SKB and Hansi, Arabian Horse Fair Association, Rulebook, Standing Rules, HAS ALMOST EVERY SINGLE POINT COVERED as being discussed.

Do you know the he11 that I received several years ago when the Arabian show group discovered that rulebook? WoooooEEEEIIIIII

AHFA does not allow the showing of yearlings. This organization advocates at least two year olds smile.gif and has for its inception of the Futurity/Maturity that THREE year olds be shown in October of their third year in a breeding class in-hand.

No whips are allowed on the females, only colts two and older. Also, colts are required to have a bit.

When I stated that video cameras would most likely be placed where all stalls could be observed, the YELL that came about~!

AND, if you note on another forum, certain individuals are determined there will be transparency and accountability on these judges in the AHA show system.

Would anyone care to place a small bet, like a dollar or a doughnot, that AHA will dump the scoring system at this year's convention? The trainer/judges are going to be exposed!! They are being forced under the scoring system to give up their power for their cronyism and the political arena.
ELAcrisi
I think too it^s the responsability of the judges and the DC, but last decision is coming from the judges, they are on the end of the line. If DC are not following the rules the judges HAVE TO inform them what they are responsible to do and to supervise that they follow the orders.

Another new rule should be made by ECAHO. Horses 4 years and older can start on in hand classes just in case they are also shown in ridden classes. This way the horses cannot been made that scare otherwise they can no more been properly started in the ridden classes. The same is with this thinny bit. It has to be handeld in a solfer way than handlers often do now otherwise the horse would be afraid in the ridden classe to the bit and cannot been ridden in a correct way. A nice side effect would also be that horses with a ridden shape (muscles on other places than show horses, exspecially neck and back) are no more undesired.

Christina
Delyth
I like the idea of showing females without a whip. When Mark showed A Little Passion to Reserve Nations Cup Champion he did so without a whip - few people even noticed !!
I'll always blame owners though they allow these things to happen. My horses come home to me. I feed them, clean up after them and cater for all their needs - how could I let anyone abuse them. It would be like hitting my children - and then they'd see the lioness !!
Nadj al Nur
THERE !!! Delyth, you are exactly right !!! We can blame trainers and judges and show committees, and so on forever, but, if WE as the owners of these wonderful creatures, said to the trainers, "Lookit, you !!! Hit my horse and you're toast.!!!!!!!!! Do NOT ginger my horse !!! Do not even think about shanking my horse, and on and on, ad nausea, there would not be a problem at all.
It is the owners who want the ribbons at any cost, or the ones who are too otherwise occupied to see what is going on or simply do not care, who have caused the trainers and everyone else, to be able to get away with ANY of this.
And, IT IS THE OWNERS WHO MUST CHANGE IT.
My 2 cents woth.
Cathy
aliaalhussein
I'm REALLY glad to see that this topic is still being addressed-DO keep at it!!!! Jane is quite right about the awkwardness for the bag wavers who can only do as employers say, and DC when local. SKM is right that some stewards totally ignore what judges say-especially about telling off handlers- i have personally experienced that, In one case I said a horse was lame-another judge yes but i dont care, and as apparently noone was going to excuse it from the class i gave it a very low mark for movement, and wrote next to it, "because lame". Steward came back in to query it, I explained, steward said, 'Ok", and that was that-except for the owner getting very irate as the reason for the mark was not explained and he thought I just "had it in", for his horse as the others gave ok marks.
Having said that, its not at ALL uncommon for judges to "play ", the marks, or however it was referred to above- I have seen it a LOT as a judge and as an exhibitor-and its HORRIBLE. Demoralising for everyone as they just know they might as well not bother to show up. In FACT, judges who seriously look at each category and mark it objectively are MOST refreshing, and whether one agrees with their taste in the more subjective categories or not, everyone feels much more comfortable- I think the Middle eat Champs here last year were a good example. As someone said, " There are super honest judges, bored judges, political judges---the lot out there. The problem of having them chosen by ECAHO for major shows is that again we are getting into politics and if not that then we are still facing a narrowing list with people who have invariably seen the entries several times already and are often not willing to judge the ON THE DAY totally ignoring past titles and performances...its a real series of issues, BUT they are solvable God Willing,and enough people ho REALLY want it done, so lets solve them!
HLM
Good morning everybody

Dear Princess Alia.

since when does a stewart tell the judges what to do? Its supposed to be the other way around. thank you for pointing out what you realized. It's awful what is going on.
A lame horse MUST GET THE GATE. the rules say" Horse must be Servicable sound" A lame horse cant be ridden so it is not servicable sound.By the way in the mare and stallion class,second day Dubai show, one each was lame behind and still got high acceptance. Matter of fact I did not see one mare or stallion moving balanced in any gait.It was terrible, and most all where shown off moving eraticaly in a small circle,half out of their minds.Only one mare was able to "walk" properly exiting the arena. The rest were "Zippelziegen" as we call them in German.

I know of the od judge who still dont know from which end the horse eats so to speak and basically copies the marks of the other judges. Watched this even at some of the EE shows.

What I dont understand is that the members of ECAHO do not protest. I have never looked into details of What EACOHo does and stands for but intend to do this as soon as possible. Furthermore each show, wherever, should be allowed to chose a recognized judge. this is how it used to be here, and I think still is in the USA and Canada.

I might be helpful if we would set up an international ethical board, with branches in each country, where such will in particular oversee large and important shows
and help inforce rules. Where each branch reports to the head office which should then publish the results.

the judges at the Dubai show could not possibly judge each horse correctly, because none showed the proper movement to be judged, nor standing up for correct judging. Here is where the judges should have put their foot down and demanded showing in a proper manner, and if not done, walk out.
It only takes one time to take such drastic action, and people will be more careful the next time and at other shows.

If the rules of the sportshorse in hand classes would apply, than each judge would have to mark down in each categorie their finding with an explanation.
May be it is time to turn these impossible halter classes into sportshorse in hand classes. Let us not forget, they are "BREEDINMG CLASSES"!!!!

And yes, let us not let this subject die, but have everybody continue giving their opinions and recommendations. This would lead into changes.

All have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
julieM
Hello Hansi,

I like the idea of an International Ethical Board, at the moment we have to many people wearing to many different hats.

Juliem
tkr9
An International ethical board is a good idea, but another layer of bureacracy like that needs to be constructed carefully so that it avoids falling into the same trap as show judges and stewards who helped sustain the problem in the first place - complacency, weariness or being carried away so much by the whole 'thing' about competitng they forget about the welfare of the animals they love.

It all boils down to one thing. Ethos. You can regulate your heart out, but if the core is rotten it's no use polishing the outer skin of the fruit! smile.gif Judges, stewards, breed socities and ultimately, producers, trainers, owners and exhibitors have to want to have the welfare and interests of the horse at heart, or else regulation will make them go to further and further lengths to disguise any problems. We can't test for every chemical, cover-up and back-stable abuse even if we wanted to.

It's down to learning. Teach right from the start to treat your horse right, if you see lameness, abuse etc at a show raise the issue, I'm sure if a bunch of us were at the same show we'd all be happy to form a posse and wander on down to the organisers. (There's power in numbers). If you're an exhibitor, write to a show before attending and ask them what their policy is on these issues, what safeguards they have in place. There's loads we can do. I know it's a tired phrase but awareness and education are at the top of the list. As always. smile.gif gbfahne.gif

(And, as I always do, I have to add that it's a Frankenstein of our own making. A constant focus on the arab horse as a show animal, without putting an emphasis on conformation, architecture, performance, temperament and stamina we just encourage just the type of behaviour and horse we don't want to see. After all, if it looks gorgeous but limps a bit it's bound to better in a showing class than a straight faced, 16hh, sweet tempered horse with fantastic legs and a powerful back).
aliaalhussein
Al too true. Yes many unsound horses even get champion or Reserve..the Ethical board thing is good, but again VERY true that must beware of rules and more rules with no result-we need results results and more results, God Willing! Open to all ideas and happy to go for it!
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Dear Princess Alia, Hansi and all who care about the welfare of the Arabian show horses..... your voices are already being heard. Bahrain went to great lengths to stop the abuse and Jehangir has given a brief write up on how it all went. See post re Bahrain Show.

Jenny.
SKM
ECAHO needs to tighten up its rules on lame horses. All the big shows have a veterinarian in attendance. There is a system in place by which judges can ask for a back-up veterinary opinion if the exhibitor disagrees that their horse is lame, and can then, through the steward, give the exhibitor the option of being judged in all categories except movement, or of being excused from the class. This information is generally then relayed to the announcer, so the crowd is clear what has taken place.

In response to those who keep saying this abuse is all mainly the responsibility of the judges, and I am not trying to excuse any incompetent or manipulative judges, do remember that when judging on the ECAHO points system, they are working very much against the clock. The judge has a bare couple of minutes to fully assess the horse, at the stand, the walk and the trot, decide on their points for the 5 categories, mark up the score-sheet, sign it and hand it in. No sooner is that done, than they have to be ready to watch the next horse coming in - often the best view the judge ever gets of the horse coming towards them. And do this over and over and over again throughout the day. This requires considerable concentration and some experienced judges say it is almost like being in a bubble, the noise and hubbub in the stands fades away, all they see is the horse in front of them at the time. Judges therefore of necessity rely on the DC's to do THEIR job in the collecting ring, and on the ring steward to do HIS/HER job in keeping the class running smoothly and ensuring rules are followed, thus leaving the judges to do THEIR job. It's really a matter of the whole team trusting each other to do what they are supposed to do, rather than trying to do each others' jobs. Judges are not permitted to speak to exhibitors, this has to be done through the steward. About the only time judges can have a real impact is before the show, in a kind of team meeting with the DCs and stewards, when they can make their views clearly known and ask for them to be relayed to all exhibitors as to what kind of behaviour on the part of the handlers they will not tolerate during the classes.
Marilee
Thank you Hansi for your passion and speaking up for these ideas. The first thing is the awareness of what is going on, and as someone else said...the fact that some people will do anything for a win, and will assume that a certain trainer will get that win, and will look the other way or just be ignorant and not care what happens to their horse.

Many years ago, my early mentor (1979) told me about things done to horses for wins, and I guess things have not changed. When we got our first Arabian horse in 1981, we had horses before, but decided what we would do and not do for him in and out of the ring. We saw so much abuse from friends' trainers and from others who would do anything to win. Many of those horses did not live long or sound lives. I saw bags on whips at the Vegas show last April. That effects all the horses in the ring and in the in/out gate, not just the horse the bag is meant for. If I was bringing in my horse and he could not move and would not listen to me and move next to me, what am I doing in that ring? Artifcial aids and stimula are just that, and do not show the well-trained, correctlly listening and moving horse. All the training and money and time (haha) spent on that horse will now be replaced by a waving and noisy bag? Gee, I meant to rattle my horse up......did I accidentally startle yours by mistake, or on purpose? I have seen many trainers only in magazines, some in big shows, some here on the internet. When money and recognition or ego becomes more important than the horse......then the horse is the loser. We showed our own horses in open (all-breed) showmanship, where they must stand still, and must listen to the handler and move in a pattern to see movement, and line up quietly for judging....and in Arabian halter (we did not body clip and did not whip or chain them, just showed them quietly and respectfully to the judge and the audience) .....and in English pleasure, and in dressage and on 25 mile trail rides, and to children and adults at every thing we could to show their disposition and kindness and intelligence.

Every time I hear about shows like these where poor behavior and poor training seem to be encouraged and accepted, then that really gives us more homework to get out there and correct, by our behavior and our horse's training, the opposite---the kind, respectful way. I will not show in that other way, and I give no respect to those trainers or owners who condone those methods. They will never handle my horses and I will not look to them as my standard. We need to do the correct, honest thing with our Arabians, so the public will see the real horse of the tent.
An American Breeder
I would like to hear from those who have been stewards and DC members. Perhaps this way, an informational sheet can be prepared that is a PLUS for these people, helps us as the "public" to understand and all in all makes for a much better show and presentation of our breed!

Anyone out there willing to speak up? We need your experience and thoughts. (I am preparing such a sheet on what is expected of a judge)
Marilee
Have helped at a lot of shows---open breed and Arabian, and managed or co-managed horse shows and Presentation Showcases and Equine Carnivals. Isn't the judge "hired" by the show committee? They have a contract. So does the ring steward. The small print in the rules and in the contract say what will be allowed and will not be allowed, and what will or won't be expected..... in exchange for their fees. The show committee has a lot of responsibility for what should happen in the show. Folllowing the "rules" and maintaining safety practices for the spectators and exhibitors. Looking the other way or allowing certain people to bend the rules has created this mess. Going back to the rules, or changing them as necessary through the system or petitioning as needed for change, is needed. With the 2 other showcases and carnivals I started here above, we did our own standards and guidelines and had no problems, using releases and entry paperwork which stated who had responsibility for what. These were not judged shows, but were for the audience, and for the exhibitor to demonstrate their horses to the public.

Years ago, I attended the IAHA (now AHA) Judges' School held here in Las Vegas, and was the only 1 of 2 (the other from northern Nevada) to attend from this state. I found it very enlightening.
BasiliskBelka
QUOTE (An American Breeder @ Apr 8 2008, 01:16 AM)
I would like to hear from those who have been stewards and DC members.† Perhaps this way, an informational sheet can be prepared that is a PLUS for these people, helps us as the "public" to understand and all in all makes for a much better show and presentation of our breed!

Anyone out there willing to speak up?† We need your experience and thoughts.† (I am preparing such a sheet on what is expected of a judge)
*



I am an AHS DC (plan to go for full ECAHO status next year) and as such implement both ECAHO and AHS rules. And I *do* implement them - I don't care WHO the offender is. If it is an obvious 'newbie' I give them time to get themselves "legal" before they go in the ring, but otherwise, every incident - and every name - goes into the report which I submit.

In the UK at least, the *convention* is that the judge has overall control of what happens once a horse enters the ring, but DCs are in contact with ring stewards, and if we deem it necessary, we get the steward to communicate to the judge with regard any problems. However, Item 7 of the 2008 ECAHO DC's document states:

"7. The members of a DC shall have control over and free access to all places used for the
purposes of the show, but may only enter a horse's box in the presence of the horse's
owner or handler, trainer or other person responsible for the horse."

IMO, the biggest single omission in the ECAHO rules is the lack of provision for DCs to act on complaints from spectators - who, as we know - are often placed to see incidents that judges/stewards may miss, and who are on balance LESS likely to be biased than owners of horses entered at the show, who *are* permitted to make formal complaints.

By and large, in the UK, we keep on top of most of the problems - and we have many splendid stewards who do NOT stand for any nonsense. However, it can be difficult for a single DC to take unilateral action.

Keren
An American Breeder
Thank you soo much for your response. I will be doing a PM to you later with a slightly different request.

The officials are the ones competitors, spectators, breeders, and friends of the breed look to in the showing/all aspects for the quality, enjoyment and safety of our breed.

We must have this type of officiating or there are those who will sink all of us into the muck/and where much of what the world has sunk to, if reading here on this board is any indication of the state of our shows/philosophies by those in control. I know in the US it is totally deplorable.

******
For the United States, I have wondered if using the Sheriff's Posse, or off-duty Sheriff Deputies (not city cops!) and/or Back Country Horsemen members to act as DC's or at least in an advisory position would work?

Anyone out here in the reach of this forum have any thoughts on this? Ideas for policing? And how to reach the best/correct people to start correcting on all levels? And, please, I do not mean, you and I. We have been yelping our heads off since the 70's and it has done absolutely no good! I mean get the job done!!!

Thanks
Liz Salmon
I will continue to take videos/photos (posting them on public websites) and write about anything I witness. I now have a tiny video camera that is not obvious to anyone that I'm taking a video unless they are quite close to me.

When I was judging in the US I hated the fear and trembling I saw in some Halter horses, which was one of the many reasons I gave up my card. I have never wanted to judge in Brazil for that reason either. I do think that the situation is pretty much under control in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

IMO owners MUST take more responsibility to whom they send their horses. Do plenty of research, go around the stable area at shows. Talk to owners etc.
luke64
I thank you at last there are other people who can see what Ive been seeing for over twenty years,

God created the earth then he created man and he created the ARABIAN
the two closest things to perfection man and the Arabian horse

The Arabian Horse is gods Gift to me and to you
It was given as a gift nt to be changed by man but to be appreciated with love,
It was given to us by god the god of love and compassion

If any of you know away to stop the abuse of the lords greatest gift to us then Im all for it

how about a world court room from each country and make the rules and stick to them and ban that person stud from showing anywhere for two years and their stud or stud name broadcast around the world and on the web not sure how to word it but im sure you get my drift sort of like what they do for the olympics so they are banned from showing , training , and anything that involves the arabian horse and a huge fine,

Regards to all
LINDA
KIOMA PARK ARABIANS
god bless
HLM
Good morning everybody

Dear Liz (S)

the probem I think is that too many owners do not know enough about a "Horse".
They trust trainers, ask around where to get help and often have been misguided.

At my time owners showed themselves, and I have plenty of films/videos to prove it. Matter of fact, the whole family was showing, like the Rookers.

Some also do not understand that reprimentation is necessary "done at home" and should be done expertly.Actually seminars- "hand on work" are in my opinion the best thing to attend.

One time at an Ee show I stopped at at stall looking at a georgeous grey stallion.
they were preparing him for the class. I asked the owner what he is doing about the "Galls" on his hind ankels. He did not know what galls are and aactually never noticed them.. I explained that they are often very painful and render a horse lame. Anyway, he showed the horse and indeed the horse was limping along.He did not get a ribbon, although whould have placed. This indicated to me that the judges saw what I did and acted accordingly.

At the Dubei show I saw at least one mare and one stallion lame on the off hind.
Most likley a stifle injury. They were among the ribbon winners.Now had they walked the horses before the judge as they walked them getting out of the ring, the judges had to notice this. It was extremely obvious to my eyes.

What you are doing with your camera is great Liz. If any of us mark down the horses we think something is wrong, and report it so that they can be examined again at their stall area, it would help. I often walk through the holding area and look at horses, also through the stall areas. Not to find faults etc, but to see the horses close up. the faults which hit my eyes are always and ever those tiny hoofs, hoofs on adults which should belong to a ten months old weanling.

IN any case, faults are one thing, misbehavior,mistreatments and breaking the rules is another.

May be we should encourage the owners to show their horses. They can stand them up like if they were in a pasture. A good judge can judge this way better than the star gazers were often the conformation is a pretence and make believe.

I also remember that Pete Cameron in various cases ask the trainer to drop the
lead shank, whip etc and stand the horse square for judging. I have this on videos. I also have it on videos he feeling the tendos and actually picking up a hoof, asked to open the horse's mouth, etc. Well Judges,how about all of you following in his legendary footsteps? You have the right to do as he did.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.

..
KHA`LILAH
Welfare is not push and take itís a united decision
When Judges Handlers and Owners and the site managers respond to this topic openly, time and time again looking for changes and nothing happens WHY?

Judges: Controlled is that not like leading like. Open again to corruption.
Handlers: Discipline the handlers may only divide the good at bad, from the bad at bad.
Owner responsibility: I am one of the lame owners. I Trust my handler as I do the teacher at the schools of my children.

Abuse is a deep well the surface can look good just below are meaningful intentions. Some times loving some times reactionary based on belief or social equipment.
Then deeper we find premeditated. Is this what we are talking about PREMEDITATED ABUSE at what depth? If we dabble below the surface only meaningful intentions will be hurt, yet another abuse.

Stop in-hand showing! Easy there are hundreds of animal rights Foundations that could demonstrate a quick result.

What is it Arabian Owner handlers and judges want to change?

Support those who believe in change donít isolate or beguile them.
"Be who you are and be that well".
(Saint Francis de Sales)
Sabrina+Karsten
Hi all
Thanks to Hansi to keep it on the agenda again andn again and again.
Thanks to Princess Alia to give information from "the inner circle".
-
I like to give you an All Nations Cup example in the right direction (not finaly good but in the right direction).
Only one horse in the ring. Others outside not scared by the action during the presentation of others.
Only one supporter in the ring, with the handler.
-
Now you need 3 to 4 brave people who stop the bag wavers in the visitors area.
Because it every trainer tried to break the rule! EVERY!
This is what happends by Wolfgang Eberhard and others (me too) in a way everybody in the visitors area noticed.
Next time the visitors started to stop the bag wavers - because it is cool to stop this idiots.
Monkey sees monkey does works in bag waving.
And it works in stopping bag wavers.
-
So dear judges and DCs. Build a team. Be brave. Monkey sees monkey does.
The visitors will support you if it is cool to protect horses.
Today is is cool to torture them.

Best regards
Karsten
HLM
Well said, Sabrina and Karsten

I think the next time I will take a two by four along, and it would be amazing what it can do in the hands of a little ole lady, eh?

Too long have many of us complaint, suggestions make etc. I guess the time is right, has come to take drastic actions, personal involvement, running along the outside of the ringwall and stop these plastic bag culprits. But also stop the trainers putting such garbage on the end of their whips.Has nobody ever trained them right? Cant they train a horse without it? Why do they get paid for it?who where their teachers?

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Topi
QUOTE (Sabrina+Karsten @ Apr 10 2008, 03:12 PM)
I like to give you an All Nations Cup example in the right direction (not finaly good but in the right direction).
Only one horse in the ring. Others outside not scared by the action during the presentation of others.
Only one supporter in the ring, with the handler.


Well, the flipside of this practise last year in Aachen was the bagging some of the horses got just before entering the stage, out of sight of the majority of the audience.

It was sort of tragicomic to see the bagwavers running back and forth on the other side of the door leading to the arena. I could not see all that was going on there but there was a lot of running back and forth while shaking plastic bags on the end of whips. You could hear the plastic bags going on and then you'd see somebody flash across the door, waving the plastic bag.

Frankly, this change seemed to me more like an open invitation for a more thorough jazzing up of the horses prior to being shown. I can see how it would improve the safety, especially during stallion classes, though.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen
Sabrina+Karsten
QUOTE (Topi @ Apr 10 2008, 07:49 PM)
Well, the flipside of this practise last year in Aachen was the bagging some of the horses got just before entering the stage, out of sight of the majority of the audience.

It was sort of tragicomic to see the bagwavers running back and forth on the other side of the door leading to the arena. I could not see all that was going on there but there was a lot of running back and forth while shaking plastic bags on the end of whips. You could hear the plastic bags going on and then you'd see somebody flash across the door, waving the plastic bag.

Frankly, this change seemed to me more like an open invitation for a more thorough jazzing up of the horses prior to being shown. I can see how it would improve the safety, especially during stallion classes, though.

Cheers,

-Topi Kuusinen
*


Kitos Topi
You are right. I dislike this too.
Still a lot to do even in Aachen. But movement in the right direction.
We will see what we can do this year.
And by the way - in the warm up ring in Aachen, no photo or video was allowed (first time and not covered by ECAHO rules).
We will see how to eliminate this too. And than making video of that moth bashers and wippers (Stupid little girls from the trainers groom section) and bag wavers.

All the best
Karsten
julieM
I realy dont want loose this one, some important things have been said, and still need to be said.

Julie
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