In Authentic Arab Bloodstock II Judith Forbis talks of the common link between an extreme head and a poor (peaky and/or short) croup? How many of you agree with this? By poor does she mean less typey, or less functional? I am wondering because I have a horse with an incredible head but I think her croup is okay... it could be flatter, but it is a good length (in proportion with her back length), and she is an exceptional jumper. Your thoughts please.

I think what Judi is suggesting is very correct and logical. I think she is putting it in a nice way as to not offend anyone. But if you look at her suggestion, she's right on the mark. I think when she says 'poor' she means 'poor'. Not less anything. Poor as in bad(fault), poor as in not good.
You have to keep in mind certain elements of the horse should be looked at as one, for example bone.

Yes but if something is faulty then there has to be a reason for it... it has to either affect function or type (or both). Why would something be a fault if it didn't affect these? Just wondering what she meant (whether she thinks it means the horse can't function as well, or whether she means it isn't classical type). I am not offended by it in any way.... just want to know this, and also whether (good head/bad croup) still runs true today.

A poor croup is:

-short and/or
-straight like a table and/or
- even uphill and/or
- deep set tail

a good croup is:

- hight set tail
-very very long (beduin speaking: you will find a horse with long croup - take it what ever it costs)
-slightly down

take a look on the old fashioned arabians they had a huge influence in the breed (from athletic point of view and their offsprings)

Christina

Sorry Judi but with due respect that is not AT ALL a valid generalisation, I know many good heads with great croups, (AND good bone). I DO agree with Christina that good croups mean length of hip (not necessarily the point of croup) and that the going uphill croups are not what a bedouin (or I) would rave about! Alia

I absolutely agree, I have judged many horses with exotic heads and excellent croups/hips. In mares, the uphill croup can lead to breeding problems by the top of the vulva tipping back, causing infections. Liz Salmon

I'm in the middle of a move and everything is a bit of a chaos,
so I don't have my AAB II at hand. But I think this correlation
between beautiful heads and poor croups was mentioned
in connection to certain families and not as a general rule.
I think some of the families that were mentioned were that
of Lotfeia and Moniet El Nefous where the mare with the most
extreme head (Mouna/Mona) had the weakest conformation
and a poor croup. And of course, Judi mentioned that there
are several exceptions to this rule.

Thanks guys. Oliver you may be right... perhaps I just read into it too much (the book is so interesting I have whizzed through it so will have to read it again!).

However, it's great to know that Liz and Alia know of plenty of examples of exotic heads and good croups... I was beginning to wonder if my horse was a rarity, or more so that I was looking at her through rose-tinted glasses!!

As far as what a poor croup means, yes I tend to agree with Christina et al... (short, too flat, uphill). However, I took it that (maybe I am wrong) Judi meant that a short and or 'peaky' croup was 'poor', and a flatter one with tail coming right from the top was good. Now a peaky croup, I thought, was okay as far as function goes (ie look at non-Arabs) but perhaps not as good as far as 'type' goes... however as Christina said a flat one can be bad too, In my mind especially in regard to the horse getting it's legs in underneath itself to drive forward. And as far as I am concerned the tail coming out from the top of a flat bum reminds me of a cow!! Maybe 'poor' can be a matter of personal taste?

Ok, some families would be likely to have less flat croups, and they may also have pretty heads, it would depend on that family,as with any trait. That would make sense, not meaning that peaky croups or whatever Judi meant by `poor`, are USUALLY connected to good heads, just that it may be the case in certain families. One does have to be so careful when writing to clarify exactly what one means! As far as `poor`, or otherwise, there are things which are more functional /desirable than others, the matter of uphill back ends and infections, as with infections and tails set too far in , being a very valid point. Racing and endurance people usually LIKE sloping croups much better than flat ones.However as far as liking or not liking a certain look in shows for example, it does indeed often seem to come down to personal preference to some degree. Alia

Hi Jaja,

The Australian Arabian breed standard refers to the correct tail set as being level with the back, not the point of croup. So this mean that the "tail like a cow" is incorrect (at least in Australia), but sometimes, this strange tail setting is said to be "extreme type".

The Australian Standard also speaks of the Arabian as a beautiful saddle horse, noted through through history for its beautiful movement. I hope that it is never lost to breeders and riders that the Arabian is a riding horse.

Kaely

PS

From the standard:

"The croup should be long from point of hip to point of buttock and comparatively horizontal. At rest, the tail setting should be level with the back and not with point of the croup. In motion, the croup becomes more horizontal, raising the tail setting. The buttock is set high and projects back well past where the tail meets the body. "

Righto, to put things in context I have quoted directly from the book... I think you will understand why I thought it was a 'general' statement, but indeed Judi does refer to particular families as well. Anyway, I'll leave you to make up your own minds...

pg 67 Kamar (Nazeer x Komeira), a Dahma Shahwania. "... definite peaked somewhat short croup which often goes with an extreme head"
pg 80 Sheherezade (Nazeer x Yosreia) a Hadbah Enzahi. "...somewhat steep croup and light behind - the typical marriage of beautiful head and peaked croup"
pg 84 Kazmeen (Sotamm x Kasmina) a Kuhaylan Jellabi. "Again, the combination of beautiful head coupled with poor croup"

Dahman Shawan - Bint Sabah family
pg 121 Ansata Bint Misr "...Sameh ironed out the short peaky croup of that line"; Bukra "...had the somewhat short peaky croup, like many of the Sabahs, a trait that often seems married to a beautiful head"
- Farida family
pg 211 "Farida family generally has.... flatter croups. The latter points, probably related to the fact that she (Bint Sabah) was by Kazmeen (Blunt breeding) while Farida was by Saklawi II (Ali pasha Sherif stock)."
pg 213 SH Say Anna "... but again, the wonderful head was married to the not so wonderful croup"
pg 214 "...and produced Nabya, a mare of extreme head, but again the beautiful head married to the peaky croup inherited from her sire" (Hadban Enzahi)

Saklawi - Bint Moniet El Nefous family
pg 254 Moniet El Sharaf "...exquisite front end - extreme head and neck - but his rear end repeated the combination of beautiful front, weak rear..."

Hadban Enzahi family
pg 285 Kamla "...a most classic head married to the weak croup and hindquarter... result of being a double Kazmeen granddaughter"; Lutfia "...beautiful head married to weak rear"
pg 286 Ibn Galal 1-7 "...barely a hint at the marriage of beautiful head and weak croup in her background"

In regard to original question I think I have answered it myself, with help from you all, thanks. In my opinion Judi refers to weakness in her ideal of type more so than weakness in structure as many of the horses mentioned were indeed 'peaky' which is a type issue (for Judi) but often favoured by riders. However, she is a master breeder and I am not, so I still regerd her opinions with high esteem.

hi Oliver,

Just wanted to let you in on a joke thats going around !

It seems someone has taken your cat and made a joke of it.

What do you get when,

1) nothing to do
2) a sharp knife
3) a large lime
4) a very patient cat
5) too much tequila
6)and it's football season?

Then a picture of your cat pops up!

Dear forum,

in Bloodstock II Judith Forbis refers to the "marriage" of extreme heads and poor croups. I wonder if there are more correlations of phenotypic traits in SEs - positive or negative. Would be interesting to know about YOUR observations?!

Observation: Keep an eye on Jellabys tracing to *Roda (won't go into the mtaDNA issues) but they do tend to have wonderful front ends but hiccups behind so when bred to a top stallion, should be a Seglawi with tremendous strength of loin, croup and hip for several generations to overcome the peaky croups of the Jellabies, has been my experience. (Actually, would speculate that since the mtaDNA of the *Roda related Jellabys actually are shown to be the same as Bint Helwa, so the guess is that closely related stallion bred to the line in the last 150 years was responsible for messing up the croup. The reason is that it is so strong. You see that same croup in the old Forbis photos and in those illustrating the lines at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries. Takes an outstanding stallion to overcome the problem.) Are there any SE Seglawi Jedran stallions whose dam lines trace to Radia and on to Bint Helwa that you like Dr. Wigger?

Dear Gari,

yes - nearly all of the stallions and mares of the Salha-family don't show this croup. The most popular representative - which I like best - is probably Shahil (Maysoun x Shahilah), bred by Maiworms in Germany, owned by Frasera Arabians in Italy.

By the way: the tail female line via Radia to Bint Helwa was extinguished in Egypt after the sale of Salha. She was the last female representative of this line I know of. So which stallions are you referring to?

Last but not least I didn't want to discuss again croups and heads here, but hoped to learn about further correlations, for example long face/long ears; broad forehead/big eyes etc. ...

Dr. Wigger, Since my experience is confined to mixed lines rather than straight, I've tended to look to strains as guidance as their strength is often more reliable for determining how to correct, IMHO.

Am chagrined to learn that the EAO has given up their Radia Seglawi lines as so frequently they are insurance of tremendous beauty, sweetness of disposition and tremendous courage. Have heard there were pigment problems with the line across the board (i.e., not confined with the sE paradigm).

Thank you for noting the Salha family. Was not really aware of it.

Hmmm...have you ever seen short ears associated with a long face?(I can't think of one instance.)

Gari

Gari, can you please go to my topic named "beautiful head married to poor croup" and give your thoughts on that too (if you like.... I would appreciate it!). Some examples of this trend carrying through today (or not) would be great. And of course, of other trends as Dr Wigger suggested.

Hello,

I was not aware that the EAO gave up the tail female lines of Radia and that it was lost after the sale of Salha?? According to my records the Radia line is still carried on through the Zaafarana daughters Nahid, Kalthoom, Nagamet and El Set as well as through the Zamzam daughters, Kawsar, Tahia, Tamara to Sabreen, Orkaid, Hessah and Dahsa. Are all these horses gone now from the EAO?

Judi

cool it's back :0) The squeaky wheel get's the grease!

Here is the thread where Diane observed a link between exotic heads and bone lengths (ref last few pages):
http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/in...ic=14222&st=150

Now that is what I was referring too of what I remembered the forum to be. Very interesting subject and a lot to be learned .... about the horses!

Christine

Hi Christine,

Remember the visit to Najim el Arab, Gemmenich, Belgium. I think that alot of the horses that we saw at the Dovern family's home could be excellent examples of good heads and croups. Add to that the great necks, legs, feet and characters of these horses especially the Abu Arab x Pride offspring and you get great horses, the way arabians should be. I alway enjoy seeing horses that make you want to jump on them and galop off.

I think the connection between beautiful heads married to poor croups, is simply because there is alot of people who only breed for heads and who are perhaps ignorant of what makes a good or complete horse. Which is why we end up with good heads and bad conformation not just croups.


Julie

Actually, it never disappeared.
If you are looking for a thread, or topic of interest,
click the 'search' button at the top of the page,
and type in keywords,
and the forum will search for you.

Dear Christina and Princess Alia

I agree with both of you, I first look at the "Hip" and its angulation and it better be good.the proof lies in the pudding. Not too often does one see a good rearend these days, it's bred away. And without it, one does not have much of a horse. remember the motor sits in the back! (Rearend)

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Is there a correlation between size and extreme heads, it seems the more extreme headed Arabs do not have the height that the normal headed Arabs posses .? JK

Dear Judi

Yes, I was wondering too. Sometimes people state things they dont know what they are talking about. I would have liked to hear which was the last representative of that line.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Hi Julie,

Yes those were great horses!
I wish it had not been freeing rain and we could have seen them turned out.
Next time, I will come when the days are much longer.

The horses at Rancho Bulakenyo have it all too.

Christine

Dear Christine and all

I did not used to be this way, beautiful heads were sitting on excellent bodies. Many of these SE hroses acclaimed fame at halter and under saddle and on the track, on which some people nowadays nurse on.
Of course some people have never seen a real "desert bred arabian" and go by fads. the true Desert bred does not have a concave head (pike/fish head)
but instead a large jibba.

so we bred away the front, the rearend, the legs , movement and end up with something often rather useless for anys stress performance horses are designed for. In some cases it is very bad and would take 5 generations to bring it back to normal. when do people wake up? Mind you the knowledge breeder can not be fooled and will continue to produce beautiful and functional SEs.

Just my opinion
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

How many of you have seen an aborted fetus? I have seen 3, a set of twins and a single fetus. If you have you may have noticed how extreme the heads are of these aborted foals. That is what some of these extreme headed Arabs remind me of, those fetus'. Maybe it is a genetic defect that causes these fetus' to have arrested development and they are arrested at a certain phase in the womb. That is why they look out of place to me. Their jaws don't look very strong either. Just an observation. JK

Because of the attraction of the face/head of the Arabian and its uniqueness, it seems as if people start breeding for characteristics for that face/head and then in descending order go backwards from the face/head, with the body/legs having less importance,.........rather than giving importance FIRST to the body and legs, .......with the wonderful face/head being the "whipped cream" or the exquisite topping added to the superb horse below. OR they are breeding for the tip of the pyramid (the face/head),rather than focussing on the rest of the pyramid (base) which supports everything above.

Some horses DO have the face/head AND body/legs AND the correct movement.

Oh happy days! A standard that correctly states how to measure the length of the croup--from point of hip to point of buttock, and it doesn't call this "the hip". Hooray! Gladys Brown Edwards would be thrilled to read this in the Australian standard.

For those who would like to see some really excellent drawings of the croup try getting this article in particular: "The Case of the Croup or 'The Arab Triangle' " (Arabian Horse World, March 1977, pages 156-158, 164-166, 172). GBE included drawings of horse and cow croups in this article as well as pictures of the skeletons of the croups of the horse, mule, and zebra. She also did multiple measurements and discussed them. Then she provided pictures of horses with various angles of croup (Thoroughbreds and Arab) and discussed the comparison, etc. IMHO its the best article I've ever read about the croup. It should be reprinted!

Melissa
Tessie@sonic.net

Melissa - a big ask, but is it possible to scan and post it? I'm intrigued.
Cheers,
Demelza.

I bumped this topic because someone asked me a question regarding breeding for heads and its corelation to conformation.

Thank you
Lisa Tucker

That would be a violation of copyright laws, and I have great respect for them and the rights they protect, so no I can't.

However, because I believe this article is of such importance, I have asked Arabian Horse World to post it, and one other, by Gladys Brown Edwards on their website permanently, and I hope this happens sometime in the future.

There is also Ebay if you want to own the actual magazine that holds the article. Another option is interlibrary loan. If you have a library near you, contact it with a request for the article with the details I posted previously. That should get you a copy of just the article for yourself.

Melissa
Tessie@sonic.net

Well Tessie - maybe we can draw a picture instead. How's this one? The red line indicates the bottom border of the croup with a line from point of hip to point of buttock (approx) - so everything above that line is "croup"...right? The blue line is level with the back (I think), so the tail is a little high in this one?

Click to view attachment
Ray

Ray baby in your books you have, do any of them have detailed conformation descriptions from Arabian BEDOUINS as to how an Arabian horse should be conformed? Applying western and European ideals to Middle eastern horses bred to near perfection by Bedouins is not right IMO.

Bandito silly you're supposed to be able to serve Tea on their croup.

Oh yea now I remember...thats where the bedouins sat their coffee pots and hookahs.

Appreciate the effort Ray, but perhaps it would be a good idea to keep these two things separate and not put both lines on the horse at the same time. That way people can clearly see what you are trying to indicate without lines overlapping. So two drawings are better than one!

Regarding the red line. Well, the far most right point is indeed on the point of the buttock, IMHO, but I don't think the far most left point is very close to the point of the hip. You have the line too far above the point of the hip (which is well below the blue line, not equal to or above it). What the placement of the red line where it is does is make the croup look like a much smaller area than it really is. Yes the croup would basically be the area above the red line, but the red line needs to be in the right place.

Melissa
Tessie@sonic.net

Well, I have 'The Arabian Horse, His Country and People" by Maj. General W. Tweedie - but I just got it a week or so ago and haven't had time to read it. Cathy has it, maybe she knows.

Your point is well taken, however.

Ray

Thanks Tessie,

I'll try again - this time with Gandhy, of Spanish fame..

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Ray

Click to view attachment

Ray the dot is the general vacinity of the point of hip

TTFN,
Ray

And the Muzzle should fit in the teacup ....twas said





Linda

That's right - IF you're Alice in Wonderland and have those magical teacups....

Ray

OK, OK! Here's a better photo for this. Ralph just put this one up over on the Ansata Bint Misr thread. It's Sotamm - and his point of hip and point of buttock showed up real nice...

Click to view attachment

So now, my question is this. When folks say "short croup", are they talking about the distance from point "a" to point "b", or are they considering point "a" to point "c"? I know what I think, but I'm not sure it's what anyone else thinks...

Ray

Click to view attachment point d to point b?

Hi Liz!

Well, that's what I'd say, but that "standard' thing? It says from point of hip to point of buttock.. I've been looking at it as in the neighborhood of the LS joint to the tail.

Ray

Click to view attachment
This is an arab, though a bad scan, the croup is clearly marked from L/S juncture to dock of tail.

Hey Ray,
I googled croup length and got this link http://www.anslab.iastate.edu/Class/AnS216/Judge%20Lab.pdf and that shows exactly what Liz identified and which I had also believed to be the croup.
Jacque