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Dee Dee
QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 25 2008, 06:16 PM)
Hi Carol,
I am sure there are many who endorse using a chain over the nose to correct a horse.  Personally, I don't feel it is the best choice out of all the choices, and I do believe many are pushing to move away from such things as this in how to "train a horse".  We don't condone it for the show ring, people are up in arms about abuse by trainers and in the show ring, I'm sure you've read the threads and signed the petition.  Unless some are just talking out of both sides of their mouth.
  I have tried, several times to state that there is another way, instead of trying to square off a horse head on which in my opinion is only inviting a more agressive behaviour in a horse to emerge. I've seen horses who were handled with a chain over the nose, and I have seen the results of what it does to a horses profile.  So please tell me, if the use of a chain over the nose, and then jerking on it, causes this bump on the nose, is causing pain or injury to the horse?
I should go raise goldfish and fuzzy bunnies and I"m afraid of horses because I wont' abuse my horses?  I don't think so. And, I'm not about to budge on this one.  You don't need a chain over a horses nose to train him. It's a method used to out-control a horse.
*


I agree totally. Moulin Rouge NA has never had a chain anywhere near him and he is very easy to handle and listens to everything. When he is bred he has a normal halter and just a lead rope as does the Mare. A gentle word and kinds acts
get a way better response from Arabians then anything else.
Larry Jones is one of the best trainers I have ever seen. I agree with his methods and I trust him.
carolmaginn
Robert,

I know what training abuse is. That is not what I am talking about at all. To me abuse is constantly yanking or whipping the heck out of a horse to make it fear you for the purposes of a bugged out halter look for showing purposes.

I'm talking about using the chain to control a stallion who is not at all afraid, but instead is just more interested or excited about breeding a mare. This is very common with stallions who are just learning about breeding and are overly excited - much like a teenager who is full of hormones.

I would call my method of using the chain and whip - added protection for the handler, or teaching the stallion that they cannot walk over you. Generally once the stallion gets it - shanking the chain is not needed - but having it there and just having the horse feel the chain is helpful as a reminder. With training abuse - the whipping and shanking continues and there is no relief once the horse does what is asked of him.

I do feel glad that you feel so strongly about your horses welfare and health. You do not need to budge on anything you choose to do - I respect your views and leave you to do whatever you feel is best for you.

Look forward to seeing you soon!

Carol



QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 25 2008, 08:16 PM)
Hi Carol,
I am sure there are many who endorse using a chain over the nose to correct a horse.  Personally, I don't feel it is the best choice out of all the choices, and I do believe many are pushing to move away from such things as this in how to "train a horse".  We don't condone it for the show ring, people are up in arms about abuse by trainers and in the show ring, I'm sure you've read the threads and signed the petition.  Unless some are just talking out of both sides of their mouth.
  I have tried, several times to state that there is another way, instead of trying to square off a horse head on which in my opinion is only inviting a more agressive behaviour in a horse to emerge. I've seen horses who were handled with a chain over the nose, and I have seen the results of what it does to a horses profile.  So please tell me, if the use of a chain over the nose, and then jerking on it, causes this bump on the nose, is causing pain or injury to the horse?
I should go raise goldfish and fuzzy bunnies and I"m afraid of horses because I wont' abuse my horses?  I don't think so. And, I'm not about to budge on this one.  You don't need a chain over a horses nose to train him. It's a method used to out-control a horse.
*
Cheryl L
Kelly, Amanda, Carol and all,

I think we all agree that ground manners and respect are for the good of the whole horse, regardless of breed.

Just like our taste in types of Arabians, we all have methods that have worked for us in various situations. Things that we have garnered from personal experience. Celeste should be able to find the one that works best for her situation. If not, she should consult someone to give her a hand.

The goldfish comment was not to any of you, who are long time respected members of this forum.

I only use a chain over the nose, if absolutely necessary, then it is for training purposes and no longer used.
Just like, I start out using treats for a horse to give his neck, in halter training. I wean them off of it too.

I think that I have gotten my point across, even without a 2 X 4. biggrin.gif

Cheryl
Cheryl L
Hi Carol,
Echo1 is Kelly.
jsimicek@msn.com
I agree with those of you who do not believe that a chain over the nose , or anywhere else, is the best way to control the stallion in many cases. There are so many other methods which are more humane which should be used first. Many stallion owners may never need to use a chain, and unless their level of skill is such that they can use a chain correctly, they should not use a chain.

However, there are some stallions which, if not corrected, will become dangerous and could be a threat even to the life of a handler. I would say that a good number of stallions will not get to the point where this level of correction might be considered. But in cases where it does, failure to make an impression on the colt can have devastating results.

When a two or three year old colt is overwhelmed by his testosterone debut, he can show some behaviors that were not seen earlier, and if corrected and managed properly during this time, he will return to the mannerly young horse that he had been. He is testing the ground and seeing what his handler will tolerate, thereby establishing ground rules he will live by. If this testing period is not dealt with properly, this colt could become a difficult stallion with some dangerous habits. We see some of those stallions at our farm, who were not managed proplerly as colts We get then when the owner cannot handle them. They can be very difficult to handle and train for riding and showing. If a young colt responds to verbal correction or mild methods, that is good. But if not, he must be corrected in a way he will understand, and a little tap is not going to do the job. A colt living with a herd of mares does not receive a little tap when he messes up badly, he gets a blow full force from the hind feet of a mare to the most sensitive area the mare can aim for and he remembers it well. This is horse language. If a stallion does not heed our mild corrections, he must be corrected in a way that is going to work. A chain, properly used, can do the job and is much more humane than the boss mare. There are other methods that work, a chain is one of them. This protects his future as a stallion as well as his handler.

So my thoughts would be, in the best interest of the stallion and his handler, there are many methods for teaching a stallion safe handling behaviors, and different methods work on different horses. The important thing is to suit the method to the needs of the horse.

Jane
KHA`LILAH
The burden of leadership philological studies show horse to be a herding animal.
As I have said I agree, Shock does have an effect, like any object it depends on the skills of the handler. It was once said “do unto others as you would have done unto yourself”. Making something bow down to your control requires the ability in oneself, to be fixed. This is a heavy burden on the shoulders. But wishing something to bow down requires flexibility in oneself, to bend ones view.
Living with our beliefs is easy, if we don’t mind what is caved in stone.
Echo1
Dear Cheryl,
I'm not worried about the goldfish comment, it was sort of funny anyways biggrin.gif .

Carol,
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I can see where we aren't thinking 'long term'. In any case, I would love to show you how we train horses, colts, stallions, yound and old who have not been trained yet.
A chain and a shank and jerking a horse in the head, it is a temporary fix, to a natural response a horse may have whether he is refusing, or being aggressive, which can at times only lead to more aggressive behaviour. Arabians are very clever horses. Both reasons(refusing or aggressiveness) for this behaviour are coming from the same thought process in a horse. He is trying to 'disengage you', and you are trying to "disengage him " at the same time.
An arabian only has a handful of bad behaviours. Most of which are dealt with all the same way.

My question is " What happens when he does that when you're in the saddle? How do you shank him then to stop him from rearing?" Picture riding a stallion and he sees another horse and decides to show his aggression by rearing. Do you jump off, run to the barn to get a chain, attach a chain over his head, and shank him?
So the problem isn't really fixed then afterall, is it?

As far as breeding stallions are concerned, we have 8 stallions at this time, several are being trained under saddle. These stallions breed, as well as are being trained under saddle. They live in the same barn with each other. They are ridden side by side on the trail together. I have never used a chain over their nose on any of them. Some stallions are naturally more headstrong then others. Those who are must spend a great deal of time, being redirected, and need to be refocused quite often, until the come to the conclusion that the discipline is going to be consistant. But EVERY horse is handled from birth, with the intention that they will be ridden one day.

I think many of us have gotten to a point, where we are breeding and raising horses for halter, and no thought is given to the idea that the horse will be ridden one day, and clearly no intention of them being a good horse for riding. Many breeders turn out young horses, who are nowhere near having the basic training required of a horse intended for riding, yet are fully matured, and are breeding stallions. Far too many SE horses that I see, are attached to a handler where all the control they have is over the horses head, and these horses, are horses, which I feel, are an accident waiting to happen. These stallions are like hell on wheels, to try to get from a halter horse to a riding horse, and part of the reason why owners aren't even considering them for riding. And, that is a shame, spoiled from birth, allowed to live a life being agressive, because they were never taught, only reprimanded. They have no skill, no handle, can't be rated, and engrained from birth to be confrontational, and has learned to do all his thinking in his back end.
I've seen QH and TB stallions who are just knuckleheads, and you could put a chain on them, and to them, it's like a fly on their butt, they could care less. But Arabians, are so different. They are quite sensitive, very responsive, and extremely intelligent. I can see where many get the idea of training one horse is the same as another, and the techiniques used to train a QH or TB stallion for example are being used on Arabian stallions, but they are quite different.
If every horse was raised from birth with the intention of being ridden one day, I think many would quickly put away the chain, realizing it's not an effective technique for long term horsemanship with an Arabian.

Looking forward to seeing you soon. smile.gif Have a safe trip on your way to the Event.


Kelly
carolmaginn
Kelly,

We used the chain on our stallion when we needed more control and to teach him that rearing was not appropriate. That was two weeks ago. Since then we have been able stop using the chain - we now use only the whip only in case it is needed. He was never rearing up like that before - only since being collected did he start this nonsense. I am sure that it would be more helpful to spend more time with him - more than we have. This is a horse who was always very easy to handle. He was handled since birth. He allows me to clip his whole body. He knows how to stand up and does so just by my giving him a look and having his training or show halter on. I assure you he has never been a pain before - in fact I was always quite proud of that. But we did play with him alot and always treated him like he was our baby - instead of our stallion. We babied him too much - playing with him and goofing around with him as if he were a child. We should have been more firm with him as as he matured.

Anyway - the end of the story is that we used the chain - he stopped being a butt head - my husband lead him around all day yesterday without it and he was fine. So I feel that it did straighten him out.

Our stallions live in the same barn too - and our mare and foal is also in that same barn.

I would be happy to see anything you would like to show me about anything - your training methods, your horses, your farm - I'm always interested in learning new things. I learned so much this weekend from Candi Weeks - at her farm it was a wonderful trip. I learn some new techniques in fly control, her feeding program which I thought was quite insightful and more about the Baarez bloodlines - very nice lines.

So I will see you at the EE and look forward to learning your techniques.

See you soon.


QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 26 2008, 08:25 AM)
Dear Cheryl,
I'm not worried about the goldfish comment, it was sort of funny anyways biggrin.gif

Carol,
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I can see where we aren't thinking 'long term'. In any case, I would love to show you how we train horses, colts, stallions, yound and old who have not been trained yet. 
A chain and a shank and jerking a horse in the head, it is a temporary fix, to a natural response a horse may have whether he is refusing, or being aggressive, which can at times only lead to more aggressive behaviour.  Arabians are very clever horses.  Both reasons(refusing or aggressiveness)  for this behaviour are coming from the same thought process in a horse. He is trying to 'disengage you', and you are trying to "disengage him " at the same time.
An arabian only has a handful of bad behaviours. Most of which are dealt with all the same way.

My question is " What happens when he does that when you're in the saddle? How do you shank him then to stop him from rearing?"  Picture riding a stallion and he sees another horse and decides to show his aggression by rearing.  Do you jump off, run to the barn to get a chain,  attach a chain over his head, and shank him?
So the problem isn't really fixed then afterall, is it?

As far as breeding stallions are concerned, we have 8 stallions at this time, several are being trained under saddle.  These stallions breed, as well as are being trained under saddle.  They live in the same barn with each other. They are ridden side by side on the trail together.  I have never used a chain over their nose on any of them.  Some stallions are naturally more headstrong then others.  Those who are must  spend a great deal of time, being redirected,  and need to be refocused quite often, until the come to the conclusion that the discipline is going to be consistant.  But EVERY horse is handled from birth, with the intention that they will be ridden one day. 

I think many of us have gotten to a point, where we are breeding and raising horses for halter, and no thought is given to the idea that the horse will be ridden one day, and clearly no intention of them being a good horse for riding.  Many breeders turn out young horses, who are nowhere near having the basic training required of a horse intended for riding, yet are fully matured, and are breeding stallions.  Far too many SE horses that I see, are attached to a handler where all the control they have is over the horses head, and these horses, are horses, which I feel, are an accident waiting to happen. These stallions are like hell on wheels, to try to get from a halter horse to a riding horse, and part of the reason why owners aren't even considering them for riding. And, that is a shame, spoiled from birth, allowed to live a life being agressive, because they were never taught, only reprimanded.  They have no skill, no handle, can't be rated, and engrained from birth to be confrontational, and has learned to do all his thinking in his back end. 
I've seen QH and TB stallions who are just knuckleheads,  and you could put a chain on them, and to them, it's like a fly on their butt, they could care less. But Arabians, are so different. They are quite sensitive, very responsive, and extremely intelligent.  I can see where many get the idea of training one horse is the same as another, and the techiniques used to train a QH or TB stallion for example are being used on Arabian stallions, but they are quite different.
If every horse was raised from birth with the intention of being ridden one day, I think many would quickly put away the chain, realizing it's not an effective technique for long term horsemanship with an Arabian.

Looking forward to seeing you soon.  smile.gif  Have a safe trip on your way to the Event.
Kelly
*
Echo1
Hi Carol,
Well, it sounds like you have a very nice stallion, who is great to be around and well taken care of since birth. Seems like he just hit a roadblock during collection, and got a bit ahead of himself. Lots of young breeding stallions become very happy with themselves once they get to breeding. And a stallion who gets to breeding, especially when they are young, will start wanting to rear alot simply because they equate the two behaviours. It's completely normal. Just have to remember the laws of physics, and what goes up, must come down. And, you certainly don't want to be in the way of that. Every horse will give his little signs of his next response, and the key with a young breeding stallion, is to discourage him, before he goes up, if he's not breeding a mare of course. It's much easier to break his train of throught when he starts, than after he's already underway. I'm sure you can tell when he's got breeding on his mind, and that's when to correct him. wink.gif
The key to training, that I have found is to understand horse behavior, know how a horse thinks, learn the little signs a horse will exhibit while he's winding up for the big reaction that we don't want to see, and cut him off at the pass. Most all training comes in when you are teaching him to never get ahead of you. Once a horse gets ahead of you, then you really have your hands full.
Beginning in October, we're going to have seminars at our place, and it would be great if you came to visit. Our young stallion Jabbar, who got to breeding before being a finished horse is a real handful for a young horse. He loves to rear at this point, is like a cat on a leash at times, and does not have what I would refer to as a good handle on him yet, but will be coming home this summer for some training. He is a very fresh horse, full of himself. Needs some serious training, and probably the more difficult of situations to deal with. He should be a great example of how to correct these problems we see and start a young stallion who started breeding before saddle training. wink.gif
carolmaginn
Kelly,

I love my stallion - too much probably. We do not have any children, and I'm afraid he has become our "little boy". Only our little boy - is not really a little boy. He has turned into a great big stallion right before our eyes. And we needed to stop treating him this way a long time ago. Becky at Kehilan did warn me about this but he was just so adorable - I couldn't imagine him all grown up and we just loved him and played with him and goofed around with him and he came to see us as his peer - not the person to mind. I guess that you can spoil children too and so I'd probably e a terrible mom. By the time they are all grown up if you spoiled them all along the way then its harder to discipline them as adults and they can get into trouble because they don't have appropriate manners. It would had been much easier had he not been OUR stallion. It is also much easier with mares or fillies or geldings because they do not get goofy on you with hormones. Much easier to correct. But a lesson to all - babying too much - makes you have a lot more work later...

I will look forward to hearing more about your stallion - he has a lovely head and probably what this country needs more of. .. especially given how many big, smooth bodied mares there that could use a little more help with their heads. It is really great that you brought him over.

Keep me posted on your seminar and progress with your stallion - I am all ears at this point biggrin.gif

Glad we were able to have a good chat about all this and finally reach common ground.

Carol

QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 26 2008, 09:39 AM)
Hi Carol,
Well, it sounds like you have a very nice stallion, who is great to be around and well taken care of since birth.  Seems like he just hit a roadblock during collection, and got a bit ahead of himself.  Lots of young breeding stallions become very happy with themselves once they get to breeding. And a stallion who gets to breeding, especially when they are young, will start wanting to rear alot simply because they equate the two behaviours. It's completely normal.  Just have to remember the laws of physics, and what goes up, must come down. And, you certainly don't want to be in the way of that. Every horse will give his little signs of his next response, and the key with a young breeding stallion, is to discourage him, before he goes up, if he's not breeding a mare of course. It's much easier to break his train of throught when he starts, than after he's already underway. I'm sure you can tell when he's got breeding on his mind, and that's when to correct him.  wink.gif
The key to training, that I have found is to understand horse behavior, know how a horse thinks, learn the little signs a horse will exhibit while he's winding up for the big reaction that we don't want to see, and cut him off at the pass. Most all training comes in when you are teaching him to never get ahead of you. Once a horse gets ahead of you, then you really have your hands full.
Beginning in October, we're going to have seminars at our place, and it would be great if you came to visit.  Our young stallion Jabbar, who got to breeding before being a finished horse is a real handful for a young horse.  He loves to rear at this point, is like a cat on a leash at times, and does not have what I would refer to as a good handle on him yet, but will be coming home this summer for some training.  He is a very fresh horse, full of himself. Needs some serious training, and probably the more difficult of situations to deal with.  He should be a great example of how to correct these problems we see and start a young stallion who started breeding before saddle training.  wink.gif
*
Echo1
Thanks Carol, I'm happy we did talk this through, and it would be great to have you come visit. There are several very nice SE breeding farms in our area too. Majid, Anne-Louise, and Omni. October is definitely the time of year to visit the Northeast, with all that is going on, the weather is great, and the countryside is just uncomparably beautiful..... smile.gif
Besides, we'll have *Alaa Jabbar babies for you to see. wink.gif
carolmaginn
I always love to see everyone's horses and babies, and I love to see what other breeders are producing with different lines. Best of luck and see you soon!

Carol

QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 26 2008, 10:23 AM)
Thanks Carol, I'm happy we did talk this through, and it would be great to have you come visit.  There are several very nice SE breeding farms in our area too. Majid, Anne-Louise, and Omni. October is definitely the time of year to visit the Northeast, with all that is going on, the weather is great, and the countryside is just uncomparably beautiful..... smile.gif
Besides, we'll have *Alaa Jabbar babies for you to see.  wink.gif
*
AAArabians
Just thought that I would put my 2 cents in!!!

I am Alpha on my farm!!!
I use tools such as a whip, a chain, ties for hours and etc......
It saves a lot of conflict! It's simple I am the boss!!!!!!!
My horses are easy to handle, they love me, and do anything I ask and are not afraid of me!!! Every horse that I own gets the chain 101 at least once. It teaches them in 2 seconds not to rear and makes them a good citizen!
I have many outside horses that show up that are spoiled brats and if pushed will kill themselves or me. The owner does not believe in any of these training methods!
I just tell them they need to take them home and bring them back when they won't kill me!!!!
I find that these tools are only needed one time.

Here is an interesting story!
I brought in a mare to help someone out. This mare for no reason
laid me flat out and continued to trample me with teeth bared and ears back.
I then got myself up and herded her into a round pen. went and got my long whip and stood in the center . When she showed aggression, she would feel the whip.
when she stopped showing her bad temper we were done and I petted her. From
that day on, I trust this mare as to never harm my children , nor others! She is kind and affectionate and easy and willing to work with! I only used the whip for one session. When I raise my own horses I seem to never need the whip until the
boyz think they are Alpha and start rearing and striking. I back them with a simple cross whipping action on the chest, normally it takes only one or two times.
By the way never whip with anger!!! It is a good tool for a good purpose!
I give every horse the chain over nose 101, it seems to teach them to be reasonable. It is very gentle if they are taught at a young age to respect it. It is the older ones that get hurt if you try it on them and they do not know what it is!!!!!

KR
Candi
Echo1
While you may think you have that horse trained, my question is trained for WHAT?

I think all stud chains should be thrown in the garbage when it comes to training, because ANY horse can learn to be respectful without it. A horse can be taught to lead with a halter and cotton lead with no chain at all.
A horse who shows aggressive behaviour is a horse who does not respect people. He thinks he is dominant and you are not. And just as you are trying to establish dominance so is he.

This horse needs to be put in a roundpen, and taught to move away when asked, by throwing the end of a rope at his hindquarters. Simple. If he threatens you by kicking and by ignoring your requests, MOVE him. If you want him to respect you he must move away from you when asked.

There are so many methods that you can use to enforce in your horses that you are in charge, and he is to follow you. But you have to learn basic round pen training, and it's not difficult.

I walk up to the horse's face and pet him, if he shows any agression, he's shooed away immediately and made to move. UNTIL that horse drops his head, licks his lips or acts as if he is grazing, (all signs of submission) he is asked to move, turn, or stop, and over and over again. If, at any time, he acts aggressive towards me, I immediately ask him to get away from me by swinging the rope towards his rear. I repeat this over and over,, until the horse gives and becomes submissive. I have never used a whip to train, and have never used a chain to train a horse. It's simply not necessary and is merely a glorified set of training wheels like a kid on his first bike.
A horse IS able to understand herd dynamics, and will understand his place in the pecking order is AFTER people, if he is taught this basic stuff.
The reason a horse becomes aggressive is he does not respect people.
With 2 fingers , a halter and lead, you can teach a horse to put his nose to the ground, move his hindquarter, or move his forhand away from you. That's all that is needed, no chain, no whip, no yelling, screaming etc.
Once you get control of the horse's ass end, I guarantee his mind will follow.

Ibn Hell on Wheels can also be trained, worst case scenario, the horse gets laid down on his side, which is forcing a horse into submission, but I would never recommed anyone to do this, until they have been taught how to lay a horse down in a roundpen safely.

All this stuff about exherting your control over a horse, by using a chain and jerking on his head is not teaching a horse anything at all. It's a lazy way out, and tell me how do you contol this horse under saddle?

If you NEVER train your horse to respect your space and back up or move away from you when you ask him to, you have an unpredictable horse. You have to get control of the horses rear end. When a horse is on a lead, and you are facing him, if you step in toward him, he should know to keep a distance and immediately back up. When you drop your shoulders and walk in on him he knows to stand still. These are all things a horse CAN be taught, because it is part of their natural instictive built in herd behaviours.

The chain is called a 'stud chain', it's not a 'training chain', and it was used on breeding stallions. Somewhere along the line, some trainer or handler picked this up and decided to go to town with it and use it on all horses, mares, geldings, babies etc. Some stallions are simply only able to breed with one on, because they are only able to think of only one thing at a time. I can see the use of a chain in a stallion halter class, having 20+ stallions in a class and having this for safety reasons, or to breed a stallion at times, but goodness sakes, it is simply not necessary to train a horse and should NOT be a substitute for proper training by any means.

A horse who can "only" lead with a chain over the nose, and a chain over the nose is the only way to keep his attention, I guarantee is an untrained horse. And, I never, ever, ever, would attempt to get on the back of any stallion, who cannot be led or respond or stand quietly without a chain over his nose. HE is UNSAFE because he is UNTRAINED in how to behave around people.
So therefore, the horse who is only understanding a chain to stand or not rear, must then be taught how to stand and not rear without it. The only problem now is that he has an aggressive nature to him. It's very defeating to the horse, because you've really shortchanged him in his ability to be a safe riding horse. dry.gif

The whole PROBLEM with your theory is the horse is only respecting the chain, and not respecting you. Don't kid youself to think this horse respects you.
Cheryl L
On dogs, we call it a training collar, while others call it a choke chain. We use it for training and obviously not for choking.

Friends got a 4 year old Haflinger gelding. 55 inches of pure tank, hence his nickname Tank. The friend of the woman that sold him to us, told us he was very spoiled on the ground. The horse drives and rides. His ground manners were hideous. When we brought him home, he came off the trailer and dragged ME. I have never had a horse drag me before. I put a chain over his nose and got him back to the stalls. It took 4 months of ground work, first with chain over the nose and then a chin chain, before I trusted him to be led by children WITHOUT the chain. He has the best manners in the world and even his breeder/owner was very impressed with him, when she came to visit.

I use the chain as a training tool.
Cheryl
Echo1
QUOTE (Cheryl L @ May 28 2008, 06:03 PM)
It took 4 months of ground work, first with chain over the nose and then a chin chain, before I trusted him to be led by children WITHOUT the chain. He has the best manners in the world and even his breeder/owner was very impressed with him, when she came to visit.

I use the chain as a training tool.
Cheryl
*


Woudn't you have preferred 15-20 minutes instead of 4 months?
AAArabians
I ride my stallions through pastures full of mares with just a halter and lead rope!
I walk my stallions through fields full of baby horses. My stallions my vets love as they are always well behaved and kind. They all wear a stud chain when it is needed! Sometimes they do not need it other times it is needed for sure!!!

I bought a stallion whom was 4 at the time, went to breed him for the first time.
I was on one side another person on the other side, both holding leads attached to him. After he mounted he started savaging the mare, we could not pull him back as he was a complete nut! Well there in my hand was my handy dandy whip!!!
Walla I let him have it and down he came!!!! hmmmmmmmm....
I do believe abuse is from anger. And training has tools!

I am a large animal trainer. When a large cat is not listening to mom, she will bat him on the nose. Well in order for me to equal moms bat,I have to add a little to it!!!
My tiger Raja, did commercials and was one of the best trained cats.
I find that training animals one should understand the herd not the human ideas!

The chain I find helps teach a foal not to fight when they are in a pickle!
I have foals get in a pinch and wait patiently instead of flipping out. It is the same principal as to tie a horse down, I achieve the same respect and loyalness from my handy dandy chain! I have never needed to tie one down!

By the way a whip could never equate to power of a kick or bite from another horse!

Not one of my horses are afraid of the whip, however if my energy becomes stern and I raise my vocal tone they seem think it over. My boyz need an occasional backing up session!

My horses are kind and afraid of nothing on our farm as anyone that has seen them will verify!! My horses will do anything that I ask because they want to!

All of the foals that leave here love people and are not afraid!

I have a friend who tried the nice guy routine with the wrong horse.
and now is partially cripple from this horse!

KR
Candi

KR
Candi
heidip
Around here, I call it a come to Jesus meeting.I handle a lot of stallions and refuse to be nipped at or struck.This Montessori horsemanship will get folks killed.
Dee Dee
Using a chain on a foal is just scarey.
I would certainly have a hard time with Moulin if he felt a chain on his face. I can't even imagine it. He would think he was in hell. sad.gif
Echo1
I've seen handlers get into a sparring match with a colt or young stallion, and it doesn't turn out well. He bites, you slap him, he bites, you whack him, he bites you shank him, he bites when you turn your back, you shank him again, now that you're really annoyed, and you shank him so hard you put him on his heels, and he FINALLY steps backwards. It's an endless game to some stallions and young colts.

What many don't realize, is that in the process of shanking a horse, the horse took a step or two backwards, which was all that was required in the first place to exhert your dominane over him. I guess the question is are you able to make the horse step backwards any other way?
AAArabians
Dee Dee,

I guess it just depends on what is imagined!!!

I imagine that a foal sticks his neck through something and

A) Freaks out and kills itself

or

cool.gif From experience of chain pressure stops and gives until someone comes to help!

We had Imperial Bellisima jerk away from the farrier as a foal and come down with her hoof stuck in the blanket bar. Because of her GENTLE chain training
she stayed totally calm on 2 hind legs and waited for the tool gun to arrive and take the blanket bar off! Well Thank God that her first response to something metal
holding her was in my hands and not the blanket bars!

KR
Candi
Desert Tag Arabians
QUOTE (heidip @ May 28 2008, 07:20 PM)
Around here, I call it a come to Jesus meeting.I handle a lot of stallions and refuse to be nipped at or struck.This Montessori horsemanship will get folks killed.
*



I agree Heidi smile.gif. I think whatever works for the individual is the best, and some are going to feel more comfortable with one technique that another may not, but we should never, ever forget that horses are LARGE, UNPREDICATABLE animals driven by INSTINCT. Watch horses in a herd, and if you believe for a moment that they do not learn form force, you're missing something. Horse interaction is often through force, and yet once that force has been established, a mere throw of the head or twitch of the ears gives an indication to another horse in the herd what is being asked.

I've always felt the best way to relate to horses is by following their language. If a horse bites me, I come AT him, full force, and I've kicked a few in the front legs, just as another horse might. I've bit foals back on the nose after nipping me. Round pen work is invaluable, and is the perfect place to herd your horse and teach leadership. As for rearing, it must be stopped immediately, and the best way to control a rearing horse is by having control of his head, which means running the lead over the nose and up the side band.

Also, every horse that bites, or rears, or kicks is not necessarily a bad horse, and it is not necessarily a horse that has not been taught manners. But every horse needs reminders, and every horse is unpredictable, and that is why you must always handle them being alert, confident, and showing leadership.

Angela
AAArabians
If a mare kicks another mare, after that all it takes is a look from then on
from that mare.

Since I do not have rear hooves I implement the whip as an extension of my arm and , It only takes one time. after that I can give them a look and step forward!

I think that we could make anything sound more than what it is!!!

Abuse is when a horse quivers and shakes in fear.

Training is when the 1000 lb critter has respect for the 100 lb human.
Cheryl L
Kelly,
Round pen is fine if you have one. A lot of us don't have the luxory of an indoor arena and a round pen. We have a barn with an aisle way between the stalls and storage area for the hay.
After 2 weeks, I had no problem walking this gelding.

I also owned a stallion, he too was in the Stallion presentation. He was taken in by my friend and afterwards, I held him. I did NOT hand him off to my friend, when he acted up. I dealt with it. You did not see me yank and shank. I corrected and it was done. I did not have the luxury of a trainer or trainers assistant.
I trained my own horses and did a lot of showing myself or a friend did it. Plus, I did it all on a dog groomers salary, working 10 hour days.

We do all of this complaining on chain or no chain. Yet we stick a piece of metal in their mouths to do our bidding. We slap some leather thing on their back, to ride them.
It is not WHAT we do, it is how we apply our knowledge.

I have been working with horses for over 30 years. I was 11 years old, when I gentled the old pony at our vacationing cottage. She was abused at a boys reform school and would not let any one on her. It did not take me long, I was riding her bareback with a halter and a lead rope.
I worked with Standardbreds and jogged them. I worked with some real nutcases horses and have taught them manners. When I have worked on other peoples problem horses, they walked away with a horse they could trust once again.
carolmaginn
Cheryl,

I used to show yearling Standardbreds when I was a kid - about 14 years old! Isn't that something! I didn't know we had that in common. My mom and dad are licensed trainers (or were) in the State of New Jersey and used to work for a man named Stanley Dancer who lived in Creme Ridge. He had a wonderful standardbred training facility and won a race called the Hambletonian. I used to go to the track with my mom and dad at Stanley Dancers and to the track in Freehold, NJ where the races were. We loved it. But some of the horses were a little nutty you are right - our's was a stallion and once dragged his jockey/trainer around the track. I will have to post some photos from back in those days - you would get a laugh seeing us all in the winners circle at the track. I think Georgia also has experiance with Standardbreds. I competed in a competion to win Miss SBOA of New Jersey in 1984 where they asked us many questions about horse management and training. It was a blast.

I looked up Stanley Dancer to find out more about him and found this article: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...754C0A963958260


Carol

QUOTE (Cheryl L @ May 28 2008, 06:16 PM)
Kelly,
Round pen is fine if you have one. A lot of us don't have the luxory of an indoor arena and a round pen. We have a barn with an aisle way between the stalls and storage area for the hay.
After 2 weeks, I had no problem walking this gelding.

I also owned a stallion, he too was in the Stallion presentation. He was taken in by my friend and afterwards, I held him. I did NOT hand him off to my friend, when he acted up. I dealt with it. You did not see me yank and shank. I corrected and it was done. I did not have the luxury of a trainer or trainers assistant.
I trained my own horses and did a lot of showing myself or a friend did it. Plus, I did it all on a dog groomers salary, working 10 hour days.

We do all of this complaining on chain or no chain. Yet we stick a piece of metal in their mouths to do our bidding. We slap some leather thing on their back, to ride them.
It is not WHAT we do, it is how we apply our knowledge.

I have been working with horses for over 30 years. I was 11 years old, when I gentled the old pony at our vacationing cottage. She was abused at a boys reform school and would not let any one on her. It did not take me long, I was riding her bareback with a halter and a lead rope.
I worked with Standardbreds and jogged them. I worked with some real nutcases horses and have taught them manners. When I have worked on other peoples problem horses, they walked away with a horse they could trust once again.
*
Cheryl L
Carol,
That was THE Stanley Dancer, an icon in the Standardbred world. Now that is an experience, itself. I just worked for a trainer that raced small claimers. You know 4H shows as opposed to Regionals and Nationals. In Saginaw, we had one of the fastest tracks in Michigan. Then came the casinos and you know......racing went to the wayside.
How neat, Georgia was a "tail-sitter" also. It seems like we do have a lot in common, plus we tend to like the same bloodlines too!
Cheryl
mystikalfarms
Hi there!

I have also used a chain on my horses many times, when necessary. It does not take much to make them realize that what they are doing is wrong and it would be easier to be good, with all feet on the ground. The problem here is respect.

My gelding (he was a colt at the time), when he was 2 had started rearing when he was led from barn to pasture. It took me a long time to figure this out as he did not do this when I was leading him, only for others. Eventually he started getting worse for me to handle as well and it was then that I learned that he had been causing problems for quite sometime. I taught him to lead quietly with a chain and a whip. Chain over his nose as described using the bottom ring on the halter, not the side, and the whip held in front of his chest. When he started to lift his front feet off the ground, he would get a smack accross the chest with the whip and a stern word. If he did not immedietly come down, a shank on the chain. It did not have to be hard as he had never worn a chain before. Beleive me, his feet only left the ground 3 or 4 times before he figured it out. After that, he could be handled by anyone.

If the problem is he wont walk forward at all, a second handler behind the horse with a lunge whip (staying out of kicking range) can push him forward if he starts to balk at going forward. Soon, you can remove the second handler and carry a long whip yourself to tap his hip forward. Shouldn't take long for him to give to pressure.

I have also seen the backing technique work effectively but only in moderation. I have ridden a horse who was backed out of his problems (you have seen these horses at the shows, who do something wrong and get backed around the entire arena). This horse would back up, without being asked to, whenever he did something wrong. This can also be dangerous and quite frustrating.

In my opinion, if his trouble is going forward, why would you try to fix it with teaching him to go backwards???

Brianne
Mystikal Farms
Echo1
IF you knew a different way, that didn't involve a horse being shanked over the top of his nose, would you do it?
Georgia
Well, Kelly all I've got to say is you have never handled the wicked horses I have the chain is survival until you can get them to a point they are not trying to kill you. These are not bad horses, just horses that have been handled badly. As the horse in Florida after about an hour session I didn't need to use the chain. Did I trust him to lead him without it? no .. not at that point. Would I ever.. it depends on the horse and what he can get over. He would have to win my trust. but the chain over his nose doesn't mean I used it with no good cause.
and there are not to many stallions out there you can breed mares with without a chain to be safe. I always had a chain on my stallion. didn't need it most of the time, but there have been points in time when a mare didn't cooperate and nature takes hold of a stallion and I have needed that chain to keep us all safe and out of harms way. I mean no offense, but I'd like to hand you that horses lead and have you answer this question again. I've never had to use a chain on any of my horses, except my stallion when he was young and he still wears the chain over his nose even at 30 years old.. just in case we ever need it.

Hey Carol and Cheryl,
yes, I trained standardbreds and my husband and I raced for many years. My brother in law has been in the business since High school and has trained some mighty fine race horses. He mainly (semi retired) races now at The Meadows in Pittsburg PA and in Canada. Bill (hubby) got me into it after I won a blue ribbon and spent a grand on the weekend.. into something that actually made money if the best horse crossed the wire. tongue.gif I love Standardbreds.. they are tough cookies are endurance trained and conditioned well and the improvement of the breed can be seen in the racing times etc. They are great level headed, going to the fairs with all the rides and going on there.. they are always broke broke. I had one that I knocked on his head and asked if anyone was home.. but had many fine ones that were so easy to train it seemed to be natural for them and bred into them. I had one that was trained and pulling a cart in 10 minutes.. that was the time putting the harness on him too! Great breed, if you ever have a chance to adopt an x race horse do.. they are well broke and great to drive down the road. But, like anything.. there is always that one. I miss racing very much and now being in Tennessee where they don't have such things.. I really miss it.


Georgia
Cheryl L
Kelly,
Of course, I would give it a try. I am never to old to learn. laugh.gif Stubborn, YES. While you are tenacious, which is a good thing. Having talked to you at the EE last year, you know your horses and have a great passion for them and I have a lot of respect for you.
As a lot of you know, I have a chronic pain condition and don't do a whole lot anymore. I groom the horses for show and make sure everyone is where they should be. looking like a million bucks.
I read Monty Roberts' book and have used some of his methods, but, I would never have him touch one of my horses, for his "clinics". I will leave it at that, not my story to tell.
Echo1
QUOTE (Cheryl L @ May 29 2008, 02:38 AM)
Kelly,
Of course, I would give it a try. I am never to old to learn.  laugh.gif Stubborn, YES. While you are tenacious, which is a good thing. Having talked to you at the EE last year, you know your horses and have a great passion for them and I have a lot of respect for you.
As a lot of you know, I have a chronic pain condition and don't do a whole lot anymore. I groom the horses for show and make sure everyone is where they should be. looking like a million bucks.
I read Monty Roberts' book and have used some of his methods, but, I would never have him touch one of my horses, for his "clinics". I will leave it at that, not my story to tell.
*


Dear Cheryl,

I do care about people too, not just horses. I'm not a big fan of Monty myself. And, yes, it's good to be stubborn at times. wink.gif
A chain over the nose is a 'restraint', it's not a training tool, a chain will only cause a reaction, it's not a learned behaviour being exhibited by the horse, And, if everyone went back and read over these posts, they'd see that in every example when a chain over the nose is being used, it's an attempt to restrain a horse, keep him planted. I can share the horror stories too, of how an abused horse will be destined to live out his life, because someone never had the opportunity to learn another way.
I met a horse who had a severe bump over his nose from an over zealous handler who always used a chain. I just couldnt' see it anymore. Besides that it didn't stop him from rearing when he was being ridden, which should only happen in the circus.
The Arabian is a very intelligent and senstive horse, he is also the most willing horse I've ever met. He will anticipate pain when you have a chain on him, if you've shanked him across the nose before. He then, is no longer in a learning mode, or a willing mode, simply restrained, and about a cat's whisker away from the fight or flight mode. Leading a horse to his pasture in not what I would call an emergency situation where the horse needs to be restrained. For a very headstrong stallion, who is really difficult, a rope halter with a knot at the poll works wonders to put pressue in the right place, but again, this is not where I would ever START a horse.

If a horse has bad behaviour, restraint isn't the answer, it's just a temporary fix. He still needs training. And I wouln't even attempt to start saddle training any horse if the only thing he knew to respond to was a chain over his nose, he's no where near ready to start. But you guys know this. And again, there is no subsititue for a well trained horse.

The problem with many Arabian breeding stallions is they start breeding before they finish training. I am guilty of having a stallion like this too right now. But, I can assure you, I will finish this horses' training. Right now, I sincerely worry about him because I know he doesn't have a good handle on him.
I think he's going to go into shock to see a roundpen with no mares in it. biggrin.gif

I'm looking forward to seeing you again this year. We'll get together and talk, surely there are no hard feelings here, see you soon. smile.gif
Cheryl L
No hard feelings here, either Kelly.
I will not be attending the EE this year. I was supposed to be cooking for a graduation party, now it was moved to the following week and I don't have the time off.

It is nice to have a rousing conversation/debate with every one here, without resorting to inappropriate language and name calling. Quite refreshing.

You have something there Kelly, we never did ask Celeste, what his feeding program is and what exercise he was getting.
That is usually the first thing that I ask. I got easily sidetracked by the whole chain issue.
If he is getting sweet feed, with high amounts of protein. I would take him off of that and find a nice high fat, low carb feed. He also needs an exercise routine to burn off that excess energy in a positive way.

So Celeste...............what is he getting for food and what kind of forced exercise does he get?

Cheryl
Echo1
Cheryl,
I'm sorry that I'm going to miss you this year, but you are always welcome to come and visit us if you get up this way. I hope you have a nice graduation party with your family. smile.gif

I'm glad you brought up the feed thing, it does have alot to do with a horses' energy level. High fat, low carb, all you need is about 12% protein, and don't forget alfalfa has protein too. Some stallions need alot of extra calories during breeding season, I know I have a heck of a time with ours this year, burning weight just thinking about mares. But I'd rather he doesn't get them all from sugars. No atkins diet during breeding season. biggrin.gif
carolmaginn
Wow - I guess I should have known you would know him. I never knew he was so famous at the time - he was just my parents mentor and they spoke so highly of him - even to this day. Now I know why they looked up to him so much. We had our horse there at Showplace farms. Stanley was my sponsor for the Miss SBOA contest. I just remember him telling my mom and dad all of these pointers all the time and about each horse at the farm - what he expected from them in the future. I remember how clean and spotless his barn was and that they had these lockers in front of each stall with that horse's supplies. I guess they did it that way back then instead of having a room with cubbies for each person in the barn.

Michigan seems to be a great place for race horses and arabians.... I've never been to the track up there, but have had many different horses that I've love came from that area - Incognitto - a NSH I bought from Becky Deraganocourt in Grand Rapids, OBrenna D from Rookers, Andres Showgirl - from Don Nitz, and most recently Matt Bergren allowed me to lease one of his mares - Heartbreaker.... So you all much have a great time with the selection up there!!

I've worked up there too - my first job was working as a consultant at Marathon Oil in Dearborn in a refinery. I stayed in a pink hotel just past that big tire - by the Ford museum. I think its a Best Western. Later I worked with KMart in Big Beaver road, then with Borders Books, with EDS (GM), and most recently with Kelly Services also on Big Beaver road.

My favorite horse shipper who saved me more than once - Terry Brinck is also up near Matt.

I'll be up there sometime after the EE to take photos for Matt - so I'm looking forward to being up there again... Its a great state.

Carol

QUOTE (Cheryl L @ May 28 2008, 06:39 PM)
Carol,
That was THE Stanley Dancer, an icon in the Standardbred world.  Now that is an experience, itself. I just worked for a trainer that raced small claimers. You know 4H shows as opposed to Regionals and Nationals. In Saginaw, we had one of the fastest tracks in Michigan. Then came the casinos and you know......racing went to the wayside.
How neat, Georgia was a "tail-sitter" also. It seems like we do have  a lot in common, plus we tend to like the same bloodlines too!
Cheryl
*
KHA`LILAH
Could the congregation PLEASE TURN TO PAGE *51 and PAGE 54 Chapter EMBRYOS FOR SALE FROM A 2YEARS OLD, Does this bother anyone else??)

It does not take a “Religious” Science To replace the word "evil" with "error" praise the Lord.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Matthew and Luke had their differences. Human or Godly !
A men
carolmaginn
Huh? huh.gif



QUOTE (KHA`LILAH @ May 30 2008, 01:50 AM)
Could the congregation PLEASE TURN TO PAGE *51 and PAGE 54 Chapter EMBRYOS FOR SALE FROM A 2YEARS OLD, Does this bother anyone else??)




It does not take a “Religious” Science To replace  the word  "evil" with "error" praise the Lord.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Matthew and Luke had their differences. Human or Godly !
A men
*
Echo1
QUOTE (KHA`LILAH @ May 30 2008, 07:50 AM)
Could the congregation PLEASE TURN TO PAGE *51 and PAGE 54 Chapter EMBRYOS FOR SALE FROM A 2YEARS OLD, Does this bother anyone else??)

It does not take a “Religious” Science To replace  the word  "evil" with "error" praise the Lord.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Matthew and Luke had their differences. Human or Godly !
A men
*


The thing with ET, is that it looks good on paper, sounds good in theory when speaking with an ET clinic or veterinarian, but rarely is it successful. It's a very expensive gamble. I perfer the au natural method that has existed for eons on how horses are bred. At two years old, mares aren't ready, although I know some who breed them this early.
carolmaginn
How is this related to training methods? I missed the transition. I guess its fine to be on a different topic - just not sure how this was related to the thread?

QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 30 2008, 06:56 AM)
The thing with ET, is that it looks good on paper, sounds good in theory when speaking with an ET clinic or veterinarian,  but rarely is it successful.  It's a very expensive gamble.  I perfer the au natural method that has existed for eons on how horses are bred.  At two years old, mares aren't ready, although I know some who breed them this early.
*
Celeste
Whoever it was that said I ought to stick to goldfish obviously doesn't know me well enough, LOL. I don't cower to animals and do not give up at the first sign of hardship! I have conquered the problem by trying to figure out why he was rearing and having figured it out means that my gelding no longer rears. Sometimes there may well be genuine reasons for a horse to misbehave and this should be addressed first and foremost!
Cheryl L
Good for you Celeste,
Can you tell us what you found out and what you did to resolve the situation?

Cheryl
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