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Celeste
I own a purebred arabian gelding who does not like to be lead. He tries to grap his lead with his mouth and has recently reared on a couple of occasions. I am starting to feel a tad intimidated. How do I overcome this problem?
carolmaginn
Put a chain over his nose (through the halter). The next time he pulls this with you - give him a jerk or two( or 3). Let the horse know he can't be rearing up with you next to him - he could hurt you. I would think that should do it. Be sure to scold him in a long low tone of voice as well. When he stands quietly then praise him and go on. When he rears up then you give him a jerk. Eventually he will learn and you will be safer.

I have had a problem like this too where my stallion wanted to not mind me, rear up, and is also interested in mounting me (as in he is ready to breed). I have a good stallion - he is just young, confused and very viral. So I've had to take some serious measures to nip this in the bud. They just need to learn that this behavior is not acceptable and that you are the boss.

Good luck!

Carol
Ladypurr
Dear Celeste:

Well, he's young and full of it, but he must learn that certain behaviors are unacceptable. People deliberately "train" their horses to rear which I think is somewhat dangerous.

I had a horse nearly go over backwards with me once. I tried to pull him to the side so he'd stop rearing and he simply lost his balance and fell. I found this website with some good suggestions. http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_behavior/rearing.htm

You might look at the websites of some of the famous clinicians--John Lyons, Clinton Anderson, Craig Cameron, Pat Parelli, Monty Robers--to see if they provide some basic 'horse-handling' Q's & A's.

If he's intimidating you, your fear is going to keep you from taking a strong remedial action against his bratty behavior. You probably should inlist the help of a qualified horse trainer. Better to nip bad behavior in the bud than allow it to become an ingrained "bad" habit!

Good luck, and stay safe!

--Susan wink.gif
Georgia
Hi there.

I would get the John Lyons books.. they are great and not that expensive.
I would teach your boy the "go forward cue" as he is rearing because he doesn't know to go forward. I would teach him to "give to the halter"
I would definitely buy a cowboy halter.. you don't have to buy the expensive Clinician ones.. just a cheap one out of a catalog will do. make sure you have a lead no shorter than 10 foot.. 12 preferably. This way you can be far enough away from those feet should they come up off the ground.

In the mean time, really need to teach him to lead. Since he won't go forward with you without rearing. I'd only circle him. bend his head towards you so he doesn't have control of his head.. make sharp turns and go forward only a step or two and then circle.. you can keep him going forward with the lead or a whip taping his butt to make him move forward. Make sure whatever you do you don't stop taping until he moves or at least leans forward, (at first is acceptable) to tell him he is getting the idea.

Or go online www.downunderhorsemanship.com with Clinton Anderson. He has
information for free on his web site that might help you out. As far as I'm concerned he is the most user friendly clinician with straight forward approach and understandable.

The best advise is if he is to dangerous for you to work with, hire a professional to get him started.

Good luck stay safe and always wear a helmet.

Georgia
curtislt
Never ever nose chain an Arab!!!

They have very delicate nose cartilage in their breathing passage, which is easily damaged by indiscriminate jerking on a nose chain. Ever seen an Arab with a ruined profile because of a nose bump from a misinformed "trainer" yanking on a chain?

Plus, just think about this. A horse yeilds (or trys to relieve) pressure as a natural instinct, which is why (when used correctly) it's so effective as a training tool.

Now, if you're yanking on a nose or bar chain, where does that horse usually go to relieve the pressure? UP (he's unlikely to lie down and must go somewhere).
Kind of counter productive, heh?

Like many of us, horses hate to work unnecessarily. I find a good tool is to make the horse back -usually the quicker the better.
Next time he goes up, face him, shake the loose lead side-to-side with a snaking motion (no jerking), stomp your feet and holler BACK and keep him backing until you have his full attention. Then, stop him and calmly lead him off. If he comes up again, REPEAT, 'til he gets it. He'll soon get tired of this extra work and figure it's not worth it. I use this method to cure all kinds of unwanted behavior on or off the horse.

Good luck and save the chains for snow-covered roads.

Curt
luke64
Hi
not nice and yeh you dont ever put up with this type of rubbish It could kill
Have you got a Anti rearing Bit and A horse can only rear if it can get its head up
if its down it cant rear

Do not put up with this it is not on as It could be your life or someone elses

I saw a horse rear up on a man that was holding it talking to someone when the horse came down its hoof got stuck in the mans pocket and of course the horse paniced and it was horrid people were laughing until they saw the result
I dont think I need to say more

goodluck
Linda
LPA
Hi there,
A question first? Were you there when he was gelded? Was everything removed? Two stone lighter so to speak, and the epididymus? I know that if a horse is gelded and the later is left behind, they can still have the behavioural patterns of a stallion. Just a thought. If the extra training curtisIt suggested doesn't work, which it should with patience and persistence, then it might be an idea to check this out with your vet. At least ask him the questions.
Good luck,
Lisa
Lavender Park.
carolmaginn
Dear Curtis,

I respectfully have to disagree with you on this. I used to believe what you said was correct as I was told the same thing by another breeder. However I spoke to a number of other people and learned from them and through my own experiences that when the chain is under the horse's jaw they will go up as it is away from the pressure (sometimes over backwards if you are too rough), however when the chain is above the nose they do go down in response to the pressure.

Thanks,

Carol

QUOTE (curtislt @ May 21 2008, 07:17 PM)
Never ever nose chain an Arab!!!

They have very delicate nose cartilage in their breathing passage, which is easily damaged by indiscriminate jerking on a nose chain. Ever seen an Arab with a ruined profile because of a nose bump from a  misinformed "trainer" yanking on a chain?

Plus, just think about this. A horse yeilds (or trys to relieve) pressure as a natural instinct, which is why (when used correctly)  it's so effective as a training tool.

Now, if you're yanking on a nose or bar chain, where does that horse usually go to relieve the pressure? UP (he's unlikely to lie down and must go somewhere).
Kind of counter productive, heh?

Like many of us, horses hate to work unnecessarily. I find a good tool is to make the horse back -usually the quicker the better.
Next time he goes up, face him, shake the loose lead side-to-side with a snaking motion (no jerking), stomp your feet and holler BACK and keep him backing until you have his full attention. Then, stop him and calmly lead him off. If he comes up again, REPEAT, 'til he gets it. He'll soon get tired of this extra work and figure it's not worth it. I use this method to cure all kinds of unwanted behavior on or off the horse.

Good luck and save the chains for snow-covered roads.

Curt
*
curtislt
Carol,

That's your privilege. My response was not to cause affront. But, the first time you jerk too hard and the chain doesn't release (as they are wont to do) from the D-ring on the side of the halter, please note which direction your horse chooses to escape the pressure.
Again, you may want to study the fragility of the cartilage in an Arab's nasal passage as compared to a Quarter Horse and other breeds who are more typically nose chained.

Respectfully,
Curt
carolmaginn
Curt,

I understand where you are coming from. But I've had a battle with my 3 year old colt who is a walking hormone over the past week. He was collected about 2 weeks ago and is now so excited he wants to mount me. I have to tell you THAT is a bit intimidating to have your stallion rear up and see that he is fully ready to breed, and there is no one standing there but YOU. So as much as I worry about my baby's cartilage - I was more worried about my own health. So - I used the chain over his nose a few times along with a whip. I do not make a habit of this ever - truly I do not believe in that in general. But due to the circumstances - I felt compelled to make sure I had as much control as possible. After 3 days of reinforcing that I am "the boss" and not one of "his mares" and not allowing him to rear up on me and treat me like "a peer", I find that we are both much happier. Now this evening I was able to take the chain off his halter and just use the whip - not even touching him with it - just having it in my hand now and he is respecting me finally. So I'm sorry if I appear too rough, but I feel its important to nip unsafe behavior like this before someone (me for example) gets hurt. I do know the horse's nose cartilage is delicate, but I think if my stallion treated a mare the way he treated me - he would have alot more to worry about than his nose. A mare would let him know what behavior would be tolerated with a swift kick - at whatever was in close range.

Anyway - perhaps I shouldn't have said anything, but I am so relieved to have a horse now walking next to me with respect again rather than what he had been doing that I am grateful for having some tools to train him.

One more thing - Mo is a very sweet stallion - but he turns out to be very sexually mature and I have a mare who was in heat in the same barn (80 feet away but still) and I just think that he is not used to all of these sexual sensations that he is feeling since his first collection took place - its a bit new to him so he just needs to know his boundaries. I think that other colts may go though this as well at some point.

Carol

QUOTE (curtislt @ May 21 2008, 11:16 PM)
Carol,

That's your privilege. My resonse was not to cause affront. But, the first time you jerk too hard and the chain doesn't release (as they are wont to do) from the D-ring on the side of the halter, please note which direction your horse chooses to escape the pressure.
Again, you may want to study the fragility of the cartilage in an Arab's nasal passage as compared to a Quarter Horse and other breeds who are more typically nose chained.

Respectfully,
Curt
*
Cheryl L
Good Grief, Curtis. They are not delicate, fragile horses, with fragile psyches.

First you need a chain long enough, to put through the BOTTOM ring of the halter, then up through the side ring of the halter, over the noseband and one loop around the noseband, then through the side ring on the other side and down through the bottom ring. Attach your lead rope to that. This will allow you the control, without the chain bunching up on one side. You can also (gasp), lunge your horse this way. I have NEVER in well over 20 years, seen any cartilidge damage to the nose, doing this.

I am also going to second the opinion, that you will probably need the help of someone that has a bit more experience than you. Wished you lived closer.
Cheryl
curtislt
Thanks, Cheryl. You just reminded me why I post here so infrequently.

But, I can see the necessity of chains when one is breeding babies who have yet to mature and have other jobs so they know the difference between the breeding shed and work time.

And, I never said they were "delicate, fragile horses with delicate psyches" and resent you putting words in my mouth. I just pointed out their nose cartilage is delicate.

I simply offered an alternative to forced submission by use of patient, proper long term training.

"GOOD GRIEF", if you want to chain your horse -have at it. I am happy, though, for Celeste's gelding that he doesn't live nearer to you.

Now you have something to rant about; don't look for anymore responses from me, though.

Once again, I've had enough of you contentious bunch of ________ (fill in the blank with your favorite noun; mine's unprintable) and your uncanny ability to turn every post into an exercise of frustration.
Cheryl L
No Curt, you did not say fragile psyches, my apologies. I of course post words that are acceptable language and not leave blanks for our imagination.

Celeste,
Your horse was not taught proper ground manners when young. Grabbing a lead rope is a big no no, in my book.

There is a thread that I will bump up for you. It is called "What is required to make a show horse". It will give you step by step instructions on how to teach a horse for setting up for halter. These are great steps for teaching you, how to teach a horse proper manners on a lead. They are not abusive. We don't yank the daylights out of the horses and these methods wil build a bond between you and your horse. It is good for babies and up. Sort of like obedience training.
Cheryl
Desert Tag Arabians
Cheryl--Your description of how to run the chain is exactly what we do, and it does work very well. It gives good control of the head and is how we curtailed rearing in our stallion. My vet also recommended running the chain this way, so I feel completely comfortable in using it.

Rearing is VERY serious, and very dangerous. It is something that must be dealt with swiftly and firmly. After jerking the horse to reprimand, I do agree with curtislt that backing the horse is also effective, but only AFTER you have brought him back down to the ground. Reprimand him with the lead (always stand at his shoulder, never in front), and then back him until you have his full attention.

Each time you work with him make sure you take some deep breaths, prepare yourself mentally for what you will do if there is any rearing, and go to work leading him with a calm, confident manner. STAY at his shoulder, and when you feel him getting ready to rear, make sure you are at the shoulder (most want to turn into you, facing you, and rear, so you have to be on your toes to prepare to be at the shoulder). As soon as he comes up, you jerk him 2-3 times and speak in a firm voice, reprimanding, until he comes down. Then immediately snake the lead to back him until you have his full attention. Continue leading and end it on a good note.
carolmaginn
Curtisit,

You know I know that I used the word "Baby". My "Baby" is 3 years old now - not 2 years old. My broodmares are still my "Babies". That is more an indication of how I feel about them rather than their age. I think honestly the problem is that I have babied this colt all his life instead and now he sees me as a peer instead of the person in charge so it has made it more of a challenge to gain his respect. That was my mistake and I will be more careful to train my babies sooner - particularly the boys. I was warned about this, but I didn't listen so - now I am paying the price.

I think your patient long term training idea is a good one, however with a breeding animal you have got to be safe if he is not acting in a safe way and you are not getting control first trying your method. By the way I put the chain under his halter first for the reasons you mentioned and it didn't help much and he went up instead of down. The way that I'm using the chain I have not seen that problem you mentioned of it getting stuck.

I have not meant to upset you. I do wish you were closer and we could work the horses together as we certainly clearly both love them. And you could also see the issue I had - which improved in just a few lessons though that may seem a bit harsh - but again - I am now able to take the chain off. Another time I would use the chain would be if the stallion was live covering - for the safety of both animals. Sometimes stallions don't figure out where to mount the mare and they go for the side, their head, everything but the rear end. I would not want a mare to get hurt so in this case I would want control.

Anyway - please accept my apology if I insulted you - I didn't mean to at all. Maybe you are right - I'm just sharing my opinion and no one has to respect it if they don't want to.

Thanks,

Carol

QUOTE (curtislt @ May 22 2008, 02:45 AM)
Thanks, Cheryl. You just reminded me why I post here so infrequently.

But, I can see the necessity of chains when one is breeding babies who have yet to mature and have other jobs so they know the difference between the breeding shed and work time.

And, I never said they were "delicate, fragile horses with delicate psyches" and resent you putting words in my mouth. I just pointed out their nose cartilage is delicate.

I simply offered an alternative to forced submission by use of patient, proper long term training.

"GOOD GRIEF", if you want to chain your horse -have at it. I am happy, though, for Celeste's gelding that he doesn't live nearer to you.

Now you have something to rant about; don't look for anymore responses from me, though.

Once again, I've had enough of you contentious bunch of ________ (fill in the blank with your favorite noun; mine's unprintable) and your uncanny ability to turn every post into an exercise of frustration.
*
An American Breeder
Carol, You are going at it the correct way. I also have a colt from that lineage and he is TWO and the hormones have hit. I have stayed on him since the time he came to me, and we are doing fine. Very good in fact.

Properly used, the chain over the nose is a wonderful tool for a good horseman/horsewoman. Do NOT run the chain over the nose and up alongside the head and snap up on the cheek. If you do not KNOW how to properly use the chain, then and only then, one can get a horse rearing to where it will go over backwards.

No, so far, I have not had to use a chain. But then again, I went to his breeder and to the stallion's owner and received wonderful help, advice, insight, and I had also seen his grandsire sell at the last Gleannloch sale!

So, kudos to you Carol! I was badly mauled by a young stallion, two years old, that I loved and did NOT get a handle on. It is only by the Lord's will that I lived!! Sometime remind you to tell you of my after affects~~ like teeth chattering, knees knocking so bad I could't stop them, and so on after I escaped. I also then promptly took that colt up to a friend, Gene Smith out of Plentywood, Montana and that rancher taught me how to manage a stallion -- and the colt too!

What your colt is learning and what the gelding has NOT learned is how to respect your S P A C E. And I don't honestly think that in a few words I can teach that here on this board/forum.

And HAVE GREAT FUN AT THE EVENT!!!!
carolmaginn
Well I have to also give credit where it is due. I was doing the old way of putting the chain under the jaw and was having trouble with him going up. I went to Willow Breeze and I have to tell you that Sandy Johnson is EXCELLENT with handling and managing arabian stallions. They have about 5 or 6 there and she does a great job. When she handled my colt he walked quietly and calmly. She pointed out that I had my chain under the jaw and I told her that I didn't want to leave a mark on his nose. Then she showed me the proper way to use the chain and it worked wonderfully. Its so nice to have fellow breeders who have more experience willing to help someone with their first stallion. I am very grateful that I had someone willing to help me as well - much the way you felt with your rancher horseman. I'm always listening to folks that have done this longer trying to learn as much as possible.

Carol

QUOTE (An American Breeder @ May 22 2008, 07:42 AM)
Carol, You are going at it the correct way.  I also have a colt from that lineage and he is TWO and the hormones have hit.  I have stayed on him since the time he came to me, and we are doing fine.  Very good in fact.

Properly used, the chain over the nose is a wonderful tool for a good horseman/horsewoman.  Do NOT run the chain over the nose and up alongside the head and snap up on the cheek.  If you do not KNOW how to properly use the chain, then and only then, one can get a horse rearing to where it will go over backwards.

No, so far, I have not had to use a chain.  But then again, I went to his breeder and to the stallion's owner and received wonderful help, advice, insight, and I had also seen his grandsire sell at the last Gleannloch sale! 

So, kudos to you Carol!  I was badly mauled by a young stallion, two years old, that I loved and did NOT get a handle on.  It is only by the Lord's will that I lived!!  Sometime remind you to tell you of my after affects~~  like teeth chattering, knees knocking so bad I could't stop them, and so on after I escaped.  I also then promptly took that colt up to a friend, Gene Smith out of Plentywood, Montana and that rancher taught me how to manage a stallion -- and the colt too!

What your colt is learning and what the gelding has NOT learned is how to respect your S P A C E.  And I don't honestly think that in a few words I can teach that here on this board/forum.

And HAVE GREAT FUN AT THE EVENT!!!!
*
Gabe
I just have to add that My colt had some back habits of biting and kicking (largely caused by being partially blinded in one eye while he was a foal rather than any bad temper) the backing worked wonders for those bad habits. We still have a tiny kicking problem but it gets better and better every time he is worked with and the biting is non existant.
I would say start out by trying the backing up technique. If that does not work with your boy move on to more extreme measures such as carol was sujesting. As she said such behavior should not be tolerated because it is extremely dangerous. A whip is also a great tool. There is no need to touch him with it But a nice little crack in the air with it can go a long way to him gaining your respect.
I'd also sujest working him in the round pen. He needs to know who's boss and round pen work is always good for establishing that.
Echo1
I think it's a basic lack of acknowlegment or lack of respect problem, getting a horse to respect you are even acknowledge you is very important to be done with a young horse. wink.gif When you are present with a horse, he should be paying attention to you, looking to please , and waiting for your next request. I just hate to see when the only time a horse gets any training, is when the handler is correcting him or telling him no. All these things will go away automatically (rearing, biting, kicking or whatever) if the handler is spending his time teaching a young horse the basic fundamentals of how to interact with people. I really like Clinton Anderson's way of training horses, met him a few times, and can say his methods are very much on course on how to train horses without having to use abusive methods. NEVER would I recommend a chain over the nose, just to lead a colt, I think it's a shortcut to get a response through a harsh method, which will only make him more agressive in the long run. Teach him how to give at the poll, with using 2 fingers of pressure, the second he gives to your touch, release, do it repetiviely and he'll put his nose all the way to touch the ground within less than a half hour of training time, this is something he'll remember for a lifetime and never get you or himself in a dangerous position. wink.gif smile.gif ANY young horse can be trained with just a rope and halter.
southwindarabian
I'm sorry but I have to agree with Carol M. Colts that try to mount you are showing absolutely no respect.... We have a very direct and effective way of dealing with silly young or older boys....Captive chain, then put the fear of god into them if they try to mount, strike, ect.. I do not use a chain over the nose personally( can be extremely hard to control the horse and keep them from flipping-not to mention they tend to fight the pressure) but whatever works for you use it. Stallions and even mares and geldings can be scary dangerous if not taught from a young age to respect you. I will admit, yes I HAVE left welt marks on a horse that was purposely trying to hurt me. I used a captive chain and drove the horse backwards and fast and hard as I could. I guess I should say horses because we do deal with problem stallions and yes mares ( they are a hell of a lot more dangerous than the stallions). Once I see a submissive response I stop and all is forgiven. Horses are huge animals that have the capacity to KILL you. Respect is one of the 1st things they need to learn. Don't get me wrong, I love all horses, all breeds and thank god for the arabian because I have not had to use this method a lot. But having dealt with some truly vicious TB's and QH's, I value my life and my children's life. best piece of advise I can give ....Pick your fight-make sure you win then hopefully no more problems.
Nadj al Nur
I can see both sides of this argument. As Kelly and Curt have said, IF the horse has been properly handled from a youngster, there should never be a need to use a chain. I have not ever had to use one with my stallion who is now eight years old, however, I HAVE used one with stallions who have not had the sort of daily handling that is required to make them safe to handle just with a halter, and I WILL use it if it is ever needed.
I have also seen a stallion who DID go over backwards and break his neck, (a very nice, and very expensive QH ) because of improper use of a chain. Make very sure you know how to use it properly, or you will run into problems.
Cathy
Echo1
I thought we were talking about a gelding who likes to rear on the lead???
An American Breeder
If a gelding will grab the lead line in his mouth and then rear, and I mean rear, what difference does it make what SEX the animal is? You think (and I would believe you do not think this) that a gelding whacking the handler in the head or the body won't hurt/damage the same way as a stallion or a mare?

It is the HUMAN'S life that is in danger! Just one whack from one front hoof and the human is going to be hurt severly or killed.

Geldings are horses, last I knew, and they have the same potential as a stallion or a mare. Gelding a horse does not take away their life, their spirit, there sense of protection or of bullying or of wanting to have their own way. This horse was not taught respect, what is allowed, what is not allowed, from an early age and now the owner has to CORRECT this behavior and TEACH what is ACCEPTABLE behavior.
southwindarabian
QUOTE (An American Breeder @ May 22 2008, 04:36 PM)
If a gelding will grab the lead line in his mouth and then rear, and I mean rear, what difference does it make what SEX the animal is?† You think (and I would believe you do not think this) that a gelding whacking the handler in the head or the body won't hurt/damage the same way as a stallion or a mare?

It is the HUMAN'S life that is in danger!† Just one whack from one front hoof and the human is going to be hurt severly or killed.†

Geldings are horses, last I knew, and they have the same potential as a stallion or a mare.† Gelding a horse does not take away their life, their spirit, there sense of protection or of bullying or of wanting to have their own way.† This horse was not taught respect, what is allowed, what is not allowed, from an early age and now the owner has to CORRECT this behavior and TEACH what is ACCEPTABLE behavior.
*


Very good post-I guess I should have mentioned geldings in my post as well. All horses have the potential TO DO EXTREME DAMAGE NO MATTER WHAT THE SEX.......Respect is the main issue here.
Echo1
Any horse can cause injury, even those cute fuzzy mini horses. smile.gif But geldings are easier to deal with, because you can interrupt their train of thought, whereas a stallion, may get focused on a mare or other stallion, and it's difficult 'sometimes' to break their attention.

There are usually two ways a person gets hurt with horses, which is by 'accident' and sometimes it's really a strange set of circumstances and often hard to prevent. Other times, it's a horse who is untrained or a handler who is untrained. Green horses and green riders don't mix well. wink.gif

Very rarely do we encounter a horse who incapable of learning better behaviors or who is simply incorrigible. More likely the problem in most cases, is the handler needs to learn a few new ways to work with horses. EVERY horse will give a few tell tale signs of their next reaction. You can ususally feel a buck coming, see him setting up to rear, or kick or bite. It's when those little things start to happen before the big explosion, is where and when a handler's actions are most effective.

I think in this case, it's where we have an overgrown weaning, who isn't halter trained and he is fighting the halter and refusing to go forward and opting to rear. Putting a chain on his nose, isn't going to correct this, in fact, it will make matters much worse. wink.gif
southwindarabian
QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 22 2008, 06:03 PM)
Any horse can cause injury, even those cute fuzzy mini horses.  smile.gif  But geldings are easier to deal with, because you can interrupt their train of thought, whereas a stallion, may get focused on a mare or other stallion, and it's difficult 'sometimes' to break their attention.

There are usually two ways a person gets hurt with horses, which is by 'accident' and sometimes it's really a strange set of circumstances and often hard to prevent.  Other times, it's a horse who is untrained or a handler who is untrained.  Green horses and green riders don't mix well.  wink.gif

Very rarely do we encounter a horse who incapable of learning better behaviors or who is simply incorrigible. More likely the problem in most cases, is the handler needs to learn a few new ways to work with horses.  EVERY horse will give a few tell tale signs of their next reaction.  You can ususally feel a buck coming, see him setting up to rear, or kick or bite.  It's when those little things start to happen before the big explosion, is where and when a handler's actions are most effective. 

I think in this case, it's where we have an overgrown weaning, who isn't halter trained and he is fighting the halter and refusing to go forward and opting to rear. Putting a chain on his nose, isn't going to correct this, in fact, it will make matters much worse.  wink.gif
*


Hi,
If you will reread my post I do not advocate putting a chain over the nose. I suggest a captive chain-you have control if needed but will not hurt the horse in anyway if the horse is minding it's manners. I do agre read the horse-that is why I said pick your fight-in other words if you are not sure you can win the situation don't let it get to that point. I also agree it takes a proffesional to deal with alot of the situations, thankfully I have dealt with many different breeds and have been working with arabians for over 20 yrs. I find them the easiest to read ( don't lie) and the easiest to teach.
1rider
Sorry but i have to get in this, you are all fooling yourselfs if you think a chain does any good. maybe for a short time you might even intimidate him for a few years. but at one point you will loose with that chain. have bread dozens of stallions, arab, thouroghbred,qh, ns ect.. and have been drug all over with a chain. now just a rope halter. really need to work on respect woth your horse before you breed him.. A chain is no training method.. Ken
1rider
echo1 good points. also the nose bones are very fine. and easy to damage. some of those bones are no thicker than a credit card. ken
luke64
Hi Christina and all I tried to post the other day and it hasnt come yet
so I will tell the same story again,Some years ago saw a man holding a horse at a show the man was talking to another person and the horse was fine being held when for no reason it reared up ........... When it came down its hoof got stuck in the mans pants pocket ..... And people were laughing

Well it wasnt funny when the horse and man were injured badly Nobody seemed to know what to do myself included I think it was the most scariest thing Ive ever seen.

Now I myself would use a ANTI REARING BIT and have his head down as a horse can only rear if it can get its head up to do so
I would girth him and have the anti rearing bit with a stap that is Loose but not loose enough for him to het his head up that far as to be able to rear

Question howlong have you had him ?
Do you know the people you got him from ? If so I would be contacting them and asking what training did they give him Sometimes people sell horse that have been trained to do things Or let get away with things because they dont know how to stop it

As for a chain (this is just my Personal Opinon and Prefence) I wouldnt ever put a chain over the nose on any horse Arab or whatever those cartilage are very fine
goodluck
Kind Regards Linda
Desert Tag Arabians
http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TTouchingYourHorse.htm

I thought some of you may find this article interesting. We've utilized several trainer's techniques in working with our horses, including Linda Tellington-Jones, and had a great deal of success doing so.
Georgia
Arabians do not have fragile noses, I get so sick of hearing this excuse (but I don't condon abusive use of a chain...I'm sure at some point a 300 pound man, jerking with all his might could do some damage to any horse. But, in rearing and dangerous situations... sometimes drastic measures are in order.

I've seen more dangerous stallions (or geldings) in the hands of owners that feel a chain will hurt the nose. as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter if you hurt the nose of a horse like this or not.. as a dangerous idiot isn't worth anything anyway... to me.
I was handling a stallion once for someone that was frightened by the horse.. and for good reason. I put a chain over his nose, the owner threw a fit, as this horse was next to trying to kill me.. I just handed her the lead and told her to take it off if she wanted to.
I was the one in danger and needed to do something to protect myself, since the horse was let to get into this shape. After a half hour of working with him to
lower his head and give at the poll and move his hunches over.. he started coming around.. although I had a chain over his nose.. the last hour I did not need to use it. But, it takes more than a half hour to unravel something as dangerous as this horse was. (by the way the owner did not take the lead to remove the chain).
But, I don't feel normal use of a chain will injure anything. My stallion used to be tied with a chain over the nose, but he gives to pressure and knows what to do.
As you will see out on the trail horses tied with the reins by their bits. It's all in the training and the horse.

Although I'm more apt to train the horse, and as Kelly said the problems go away... (without fighting with them). and the only time I will come unglued on a horse is when they do something dangerous to hurt me, for any reason.

I feel the problem with the gelding here is merely he does not know how to lead and really doesn't know what to do, so he rears with the pressure to go forward leading.. (he doesn't know how to lead or go forward) So if you work on the forward motion (more driving from the rear) and if you read my first post to get some starter information. I think your rearing problem will go away.

and where a helmet when working with your gelding. Take it from one that was scalped and could have been killed being struck in the head.. I learned this 26 stitches later.

Take care and be safe.

Georgia
Cheryl L
Excellent post Georgia.

Celeste has a 3 year old gelding. A horse that is now beginning to intimidate her. What would be next, if one does not get the rearing under control? The horse gets worse or is sold down the road. He has poor ground manners. This is why I bumped up the thread "What is required to make a show horse". The step by step instructions, not only teaches the horse, but the handler too. Teaches the horse, young or old, good ground manners. We all know that good ground manners are essential to dealing with a large or small animal.
Cheryl
Echo1
I cannot stress enough, how important it is for horses to have basic training, it sets the foundation for all things you ask of them and helps to keep both horse and rider safe. These problems we encounter where a 3 yr old gelding is rearing on the lead for example, are telling me we have a young horse who didn't have basic halter training, and most untrained horses, will refuse, balk, or rear.
If this is the case in a young stallion, and he gets to breeding before he is trained, you are really asking for problems. Once you set the stage, and resort to using a chain on his nose, just to lead him, or do anything with him, you've introduced the level of pressure required just to do everyday things with him.
As we know, horse shows have moved to the point where no shanking is allowed, it is considered abusive. How do you respond to this ? I see many on here who raise the roof about abuse at shows, yet are advocating to use chains at home. What about having 20 breeding stallions in one arena, and no shanking or use of a whip? What about those handlers we see in the arena at a show?
Cheryl L
Kelly,
The chain over the nose is just that, a training tool, so that someday down the road, no rearing, no chain.

Shanking at the horse shows is legal, for correcting an unruly horse. Lord knows, I had a stallion that you had to keep an eye on every minute. Yet, as the trainer said, when he went in for saddle training...."This horse has impeccable ground manners, the best I have ever seen". She used to work for Rookers and had ridden some of the greatest horses. My horse also turned out to be a tad bit lazy under saddle. Oh yeah, I also lunged my horse with a chain over his nose at the shows, it helped him to focus on his job and he never pulled once. Once again, the chain must be put on properly.

This horse is no where near going to a ring, we need the owner to feel safe in handling her horse.
I have retrained a particularly nasty gelding. He was 4 and would come after you from across the arena, to bite and flatten you.
You would lead him and he would try to take a chunk out of you. He was light as a feather in a halter, so no chain for him. I carried a slicker brush used for brushing dogs. When he turned to try and bite me again, I let him bite the slicker brush, with all those little tiny, pokey wires. He never bit another person again.
Cheryl
Echo1
Well, I don't know that it is legal, because in big bold letters on a huge sign that is posted in the warm up, it reads, "NO SHANKING". I do know, that it is used for a horse who gets into a dangerous position, and without penalty. However, the idea is to have a horse who is trained with minimal amount of devices.
Cheryl L
I agree with you Kelly. Shanking should be used only as a correction. Saftey of horse and handler is paramount.

As you guys know, I train my own halter horses and a few for select people. These guys are not terrified of the whip, it works great for those pesky flies and for cueing.
They trot into the ring and will set up just fine.

The "no shanking" sign must be at the EE, which the last time I showed there was in 2000. I don't see it at any of the Class A shows around here. I don't like the yank and spank crowd. I also don't mind correcting a horse. I don't care if it is a mare, gelding or a stallion.
My stallion was safe to walk around crowds of people since he was a yearling. He had to be, we took him to our local fair for education, his and the publics. He HAD to walk around strollers, balloons and all of the 4H'ers and their horses. I would take my whip with me though. There was one time that we were talking to a young lady and her mare was in heat. I kept my eye on Shamal and I seen his lip start to nuzzle out and I gave him a tap on the chest with the butt end of the whip. He dropped his head immediately and relaxed. That was all that was needed to set him straight. You had to know the chain of events. Lip starts to pucker, then came the arch and then full stallion display.

Cheryl
mckulley1
The same rules apply to a rearing horse as to a dog that jumps up on people/counters, etc.

You make their lives so unbearable when they are in the ACT of doing the deed that they feel like they never want to do it again...for now.

For a dog, this would mean that when they jumped up on people/counters you grab their front feet and keep them in the air. You use a stern word that you use ONLY for corrections. And you hold onto the dog until they are uncomfortable (mentally) and WANT TO sit down. Understand that the dog will scream and cry and try to nip your hands. You are not physically hurting the dog....but you have put him in a position he now does NOT want to be in - being UP off of the ground. You do not want to let go while he's carrying on, but when he relaxes and attempts to lower himself, you allow him to do so. This dog will think again the next time he goes to jump up. He will require further schoolings of this nature until he gets it 100%. But he'll get it QUICK.

The same applies to a horse. You make his life so scary when his feet leave the ground that he won't want his feet to leave the ground! I find that using a chain under the chin encourages rearing where over the nose evokes less of this response....however...I still find that the use of a chain evokes some kind of rearing response.

What I do is get myself a bag on a whip or just a bag. I carry it in my back pocket. When the horse rears I use a stern word that I use ONLY for corrections and this bag pointed towards him and at belly height. Be aware that you will not want to shake the bag in his face, you are looking to encourage him to aware of it at a lower, less seen, and thus more scary, level. The combo of my loud verbal reprimand, the bag, and a few good pops of the lead rope (with or with out a chain) soon make them too nervous to leave the ground for fear that the "evil shaky thing" may be around their under carriage. If you do not want to use a bag, a tin can full of coins will just as well do the trick.

Be careful that you stop the negative reprimand as soon as the front feet touch the ground and go immediately to the rewards of soothing words and/or treats.

Soon they will forget they even knew how to rear!
SKM
I am surprised nobody has mentioned the use of special 'controller halters' such as the Monty Roberts-designed one. Perhaps the owner of this gelding could see if there is a Monty Roberts-trained adviser in her area, as these halters do need careful use and you need to be shown exactly how to use it.
KHA`LILAH
SkM I agree, its just I cant stop humming
I hear something`sayin
Hooh! Aah! Hooh! Aah!
Well, donít you know.

Donít you love, Sam Cooke

There are 100s of natural horsemanship books on the shelves today, buy, rent, and borrow invest in your investment, and the value will be seen in far more way, than many may ever believe...
One rearing horse is not the same as another, rearing horses. They have a will too! be strong or follow others even if not in there own best interest. Horse and man both concede to the biological response of fight or flight, as a human you have the choice, respectfully.
Today computer have giving horse owners the opportunity of constant learning. The past may consider it holds a worldly view, but discovery shows itís not flat.
AL has covered topics such as clicker training. SE Starting My Filly Under Saddle use the search button, and naturally you will find your way.
Echo1
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ May 24 2008, 11:29 PM)
The same rules apply to a rearing horse as to a dog that jumps up on people/counters, etc.

You make their lives so unbearable when they are in the ACT of doing the deed that they feel like they never want to do it again...for now.

For a dog, this would mean that when they jumped up on people/counters you grab their front feet and keep them in the air. You use a stern word that you use ONLY for corrections. And you hold onto the dog until they are uncomfortable (mentally) and WANT TO sit down. Understand that the dog will scream and cry and try to nip your hands. You are not physically hurting the dog....but you have put him in a position he now does NOT want to be in - being UP off of the ground. You do not want to let go while he's carrying on, but when he relaxes and attempts to lower himself, you allow him to do so. This dog will think again the next time he goes to jump up. He will require further schoolings of this nature until he gets it 100%. But he'll get it QUICK.

The same applies to a horse. You make his life so scary when his feet leave the ground that he won't want his feet to leave the ground! I find that using a chain under the chin encourages rearing where over the nose evokes less of this response....however...I still find that the use of a chain evokes some kind of rearing response.

What I do is get myself a bag on a whip or just a bag. I carry it in my back pocket. When the horse rears I use a stern word that I use ONLY for corrections and this bag pointed towards him and at belly height. Be aware that you will not want to shake the bag in his face, you are looking to encourage him to aware of it at a lower, less seen, and thus more scary, level. The combo of my loud verbal reprimand, the bag, and a few good pops of the lead rope (with or with out a chain) soon make them too nervous to leave the ground for fear that the "evil shaky thing" may be around their under carriage. If you do not want to use a bag, a tin can full of coins will just as well do the trick.

Be careful that you stop the negative reprimand as soon as the front feet touch the ground and go immediately to the rewards of soothing words and/or treats.

Soon they will forget they even knew how to rear!
*


I don't like the idea of scare-ing a 1000 pound horse into anything. Rather I like the horse to think having a kind, friendly, reliable and trustworthy disposition is their idea and the frame of mind they choose to be in. biggrin.gif A horse who has a somewhat agressive disposition by nature, does NOT get scared........... they retaliate.

End result in trying to scare a horse into a behavior is best summed up with two words...."emergency room."

Discipline does not have to be harsh, just consistant.
KHA`LILAH
I agree it sounds like Carols young stallion, wanted to retaliate all over her. Thatís bondage!!!
Keep goldfish
21 second later they will have forgiven you.
mckulley1
I've dealt with casual rearers all the way to man eaters. If you want stories, ask, but I doubt you do. I would venture to say that those suggesting "natural horsemanship" techniques and "fuzzy bunny" training suggestions have not. This horse scares it's owner. It already has the upper hand. No amount of book reading is going to give her the guts back she has lost to this point.

The same rules apply to all rearing horses IF done properly. Believe me, when you get after a horse in this manner the ONLY thing they want to do is to STOP doing what they were doing!

The only way to stop a negative behavior is to make the punishment for the negative behavior the worst thing to happen to them at that moment in time but equally to make the positive behavior the best thing they could have done all day.

If you do not give AND take equally you will not get the correct response.

If that is something you cannot do properly then you need to find a trainer.
Echo1
Ha !

I think the main thing you didn't factor into your way of training McKulley, is that you are dealing with Arabians who are by nature very clever horses. They will rear, get shanked and yelled at, come down, get praised, and certainly chose to rear again, based on the fact, they CAN think three steps ahead of most simplistic techniques as you describe, and will endure the yelling and shanking to get to the praise and treat. laugh.gif laugh.gif
The one thing the Arabian has going for him, is he is able to endure all this, and is very forgiving of his handler.
Cheryl L
QUOTE (KHA`LILAH @ May 25 2008, 12:38 PM)
I agree it sounds like Carols young stallion, wanted to retaliate all over her. Thatís bondage!!!
Keep goldfish
21 second later they will have forgiven you.
*


Anyone unwilling to take the steps to correct a problem, SHOULD own goldfish and stay out of horses altogether. Whether you do it yourself or send your horse out to a trainer.


Thank God that Carol, had experienced people to consult. She and Mo should do just fine now.
Chery l
MAXHOPEMIME
I can tell you that I never reward a horse immediatly after a major correction.
I will ask that he or she complete an action that I know will bring the correct response and then praise.
Cheryl L
QUOTE (MAXHOPEMIME @ May 25 2008, 04:03 PM)
I can tell you that I never reward a horse immediatly after a major correction.
I will ask that he or she complete an action that I know will bring the correct response and then praise.
*


Exactly.
Correct a bad behaviour and then do something your horse knows and likes really well, which is redirecting focus and THEN praise when they do well.
Cheryl
mckulley1
You WOULD reward a horse immediately after correction if the action you are looking for is coming down out of the sky and putting four feet on the ground.

You would NOT reward a horse immediately after correction if the action they took was not the action you were seeking. For example, rearing over backwards and then putting four feet on the ground. That would not evoke a reward.

If you don't like the suggestions I give, don't use them. I'm only suggesting what has worked time and time again for both dogs AND horses. I would personally not do it any other way because at this point, I know what works for me.

That is not to say there are no other avenues to gain the same effect. There certainly are.

But as Cheryl L says, if anyone is unwilling to change a negative behavior then goldfish would be a better choice for them!

However, unwilling and uneducated or uncomfortable to the point of being scared are vast worlds apart. If you are uneducated or uncomfortable then I would NEVER suggest you try anything more than picking up the phone and finding someone who knows more than you do to assist.

This poster is not unwilling...that is clear.
Echo1
I guess these " quick fix " schemes as you describe which are sending mixed signals to the horse, coupled with a reward at the end of a series of overreactions and overcorrections would work to get a horses' attention. blink.gif It's a very effective temporary fix, and works if you don't have any long term plans with a horse other than slamming and cramming into a different home. Just like how we see a halter horse gets " all his training" in the warm up arena before the big class. No, I'm not into that method. I like horses who are reliable and trustworthy and won't choose to freak out with no provocation. There is no substitute for a well trained horse.

Unwilling to change a negative behavior ? Maybe it's more like who is willing to put the time in to make it a longlasting positive mindset in a horse.

If you have a horse who is developing a habit of rearing, you have to go back to some basics and teach him about going forward. A rearing horse is one who is refusing. I would not touch his head if her rears or use a chain or shank to correct a rearing horse, I'd disengage the rear end, by a tap at his hindquarters with the other end of the lead, and push him forward. No rattle can, plastic bags to scare him, chains on his head to injure him or cause him pain, no screaming or flailing my arms all over the place. Just a well placed tap, at the point of the horse which is stuck in the mud and refusing.
carolmaginn
I really appreciate the support from all the people I have learned so much from. I have been raised with horses all my life. I have ridden horses since I was 4 years old. I've shown horses since I was a young child until I was 18 years old and after a long hiatus began training and riding again at age 30 - I'm now 41. I've barrel raced, and competed under saddle in western, saddleseat, sport horse and of course halter. I've NEVER had an issue with training any horse that was not able to be resolved with a good result.

I've trained with the industry's top trainers in both halter and performance. I have certainly been to the natural horsemanship clinics and even participated in a Clinton Anderson 3 day seminar, bought the book, bought the tools and all that. I enjoy learning new methods.

The proper use of a chain that we are suggesting has also been embraced by some of the world's best trainers (as you saw posted earlier) and veterinarians for safety and for training. It was effective for me and it was not abusive in the way it was used.

I shared my perspective in an effort to help another person who was asking for assistance. If you do not feel that what I have said is useful to you - you can choose to ignore it. This is what I do when I do not feel that other people are offering valuable info. No need to personally attack people and make them feel inferior or small just for fun. Everyone has a right to an opinion and if you really care and are trying to reach out and "teach" - other horse owners - then I would recommend not using the "humiliation method".

Best of luck to everyone with your training techniques,

Carol
Echo1
Hi Carol,
I am sure there are many who endorse using a chain over the nose to correct a horse. Personally, I don't feel it is the best choice out of all the choices, and I do believe many are pushing to move away from such things as this in how to "train a horse". We don't condone it for the show ring, people are up in arms about abuse by trainers and in the show ring, I'm sure you've read the threads and signed the petition. Unless some are just talking out of both sides of their mouth.
I have tried, several times to state that there is another way, instead of trying to square off a horse head on which in my opinion is only inviting a more agressive behaviour in a horse to emerge. I've seen horses who were handled with a chain over the nose, and I have seen the results of what it does to a horses profile. So please tell me, if the use of a chain over the nose, and then jerking on it, causes this bump on the nose, is causing pain or injury to the horse?
I should go raise goldfish and fuzzy bunnies and I"m afraid of horses because I wont' abuse my horses? I don't think so. And, I'm not about to budge on this one. You don't need a chain over a horses nose to train him. It's a method used to out-control a horse.
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