Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Egyptian Event Usa
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - Übersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Frank
I saw the live stream of the Egyptian Event for several days now and I feel very sad about.
I wish I hadn't seen it because of several reasons...

1. Presentation of horses
The presentation in general looks very poor. The horses have far too much make-up, the handlers generally don't show them to their advance. The presenation of movements is the worst I have ever seen in any horse show around the globe. Literally no horse trots properly in front of the judges and even then the judges gave many of them a "19" or "19.5" in movement. A very beautifuly Mishaal HP filly showed poor to zero trot but still she gained 19s from the judges. That's ridiculous. Most handlers couldn't catch up with the running horses and they more harmed them instead of enhancing the presentation. I was very disappointed to see that. Some pros, mostly from Europe, were the exception. No horse presented like that would win anything in Europe, not even at the smallest of C shows.

2. Quantity of class
Most calsses I saw were really small, still the horses were called in for a "Top Ten" award. This means nothing. A "Top Ten" in a class should only take place when they are at least 20 horses competing. With 11 or even fewer horses announcing a "Top Ten" becomes ridiculous.

3. Atmosphere
The music is poor, you almost fall asleep. The whole atmosphere is dark and depressing. Only a handful of visitors are there. Compared to the Egyptian Event in Europe which is held in fron of a magnificent castle in the outside with thousands of visitors, this is really depressing and clearly shows there is zero interest in the Egyptian Arabian horse in general in the USA or is it poor marketing from the PS? Didn't they advertise their show in different magazines?
This is how the Egyptian Event Europe looks like:
EUROPE

4. Quality of horses
Most of them have poor legs which is reflected in the marks given ("type" 20, "legs" 14), many of them have deep set tails, short shoulders, no withers at all. Despite the heavy make-up around the eyes you can see many of them have really small eyes. Some exceptions to the rule. It's depressing.

In general I am deeply disappointed from what I saw.
Cheryl L
The atmosphere is not a dark, as it appears on the live feed. I have attended lots of EE's. In fact, in the hot Kentucky heat, it is refreshingly cooler. The vendor area is very well lit.
The side of the arena, that the camera is on, is where most of the paid seating is. The only time, that I have ever seen the stands filled with the general public, is when Patrick Swayze was showing.
The music choices for this year are boring, but, at least it is not annoying.

They do NOT allow makeup on the horses. They will take a cloth and wipe it and look. You will see some baby oil to highlight, but that is it.

I love this show and it has been my vacation spot since 1986, sadly did not go this year.

I guess you have to be there to appreciate it.
heidip
Frank, the horse park is one of my favorite places to visit, while it's not a castle it's a pretty amazing place!
http://www.kyhorsepark.com/index.php
Their are a record number of horses at the show this year which is pretty good with declining numbers at the AHA shows and gas prices .I know this year I couldn't go to the show because it started before my son was out of school and I'm grateful for the live feed.
Roger
QUOTE (Frank @ Jun 6 2008, 05:50 AM)
I saw the live stream of the Egyptian Event for several days now and I feel very sad about.
I wish I hadn't seen it because of several reasons...

1. Presentation of horses
The presentation in general looks very poor. The horses have far too much make-up, the handlers generally don't show them to their advance. The presenation of movements is the worst I have ever seen in any horse show around the globe. Literally no horse trots properly in front of the judges and even then the judges gave many of them  a "19" or "19.5" in movement. A very beautifuly Mishaal HP filly showed poor to zero trot but still she gained 19s from the judges. That's ridiculous. Most handlers couldn't catch up with the running horses and they more harmed them instead of enhancing the presentation. I was very disappointed to see that. Some pros, mostly from Europe, were the exception. No horse presented like that would win anything in Europe, not even at the smallest of C shows.

2. Quantity of class
Most calsses I saw were really small, still the horses were called in for a "Top Ten" award. This means nothing. A "Top Ten" in a class should only take place when they are at least 20 horses competing. With 11 or even fewer horses announcing a "Top Ten" becomes ridiculous.

3. Atmosphere
The music is poor, you almost fall asleep. The whole atmosphere is dark and depressing. Only a handful of visitors are there. Compared to the Egyptian Event in Europe which is held in fron of a magnificent castle in the outside with thousands of visitors, this is really depressing and clearly shows there is zero interest in the Egyptian Arabian horse in general in the USA or is it poor marketing from the PS? Didn't they advertise their show in different magazines?
This is how the Egyptian Event Europe looks like:
EUROPE

4. Quality of horses
Most of them have poor legs which is reflected in the marks given ("type" 20, "legs" 14), many of them have deep set tails, short shoulders, no withers at all. Despite the heavy make-up around the eyes you can see many of them have really small eyes. Some exceptions to the rule. It's depressing.

In general I am deeply disappointed from what I saw.
*


Frank,

It's so nice to have you here in America. I really enjoy it when foreigners come over and bash everything we hold so dear.

Roger
Frank
Roger,
maybe your attitude is why the EE in the USA is the way it is instead of making a progress? biggrin.gif Just a thought.
In the USA itself this show is regarded by most handlers and trainers not as a "real" horse show where quality wins but more of a festival for the familiy where everybody gets a nice ribbon...
Which straight Egyptian Event Supreme Champion of the last years has won in open competition, too? With the exception of the Israeli bred Al Lahab?
larapintavian
While I've never had the opportunity to attend the EE itself, I have shown at the Kentucky Horse Park. It is indeed quite hot and the arena is refreshingly cool.

That said, most U.S. exhibitors of Arab horses wouldn't show outside on turf if they had to .... and THAT is a great detriment. Instead, they choose to show in only a 'groomed' arena with footing so deep it is just almost impossible for a handler to keep up with the horse, let alone not allowing the horse to show completely 'true' movement like on turf.

We show mainly in Eventing (Militaire). Both our Dressage portion and Jumping portions are usually done on natural grass surface. I am actually very reluctant to show any of our jumping horses in a "Arab" ring because of the absurdly deep footing which, with a jumper, can easily lead to soft tissue injury which I won't risk. (IMO, I think this overly deep footing at Arab shows also leads to a myriad of lamenesses in our performance horses here too).

Anyway, in my opinion only, the overly deep footing is one reason for the horses being presented so very poorly as even those handlers who are capable of really running with the horse are hampered by it. This, of course, isn't only an EE problem, but happens in most American Arab shows where they seem to regard very deep footing as being somehow beneficial (I've been told to protect the horses' feet ??? Protect them from what ... the more solid surface that nature gave them to exist on? Never mind the constant strain on ligaments and tendons of both handlers and horses that this deep "stuff" causes.
Roger
QUOTE (Frank @ Jun 6 2008, 08:10 AM)
Roger,
maybe your attitude is why the EE in the USA is the way it is instead of making a progress?  biggrin.gif  Just a thought.
In the USA itself this show is regarded by most handlers and trainers not as a "real" horse show where quality wins but more of a festival for the familiy where everybody gets a nice ribbon...
Which straight Egyptian Event Supreme Champion of the last years has won in open competition, too? With the exception of the Israeli bred Al Lahab?
*


Yeah, that's it Frank. It's my attitude that's the problem with the EE. Man, you are just so insightful. How did we ever get along over here without your input? Oh, by the way. Have you ever heard of the horse Imperial Baarez?
Frank
Have you ever recognized in which year he won? smile.gif

We should agree to disagree. That should be best.
I visited many Egyptian Events in past years and had thought they might have gone further but they did not. That was what disappointed me. It's like time had stood still. Sad.
Go to Poland and wtch this shows and horses... go to Paris .... go to Qatar .... go to the show in Jordan and you know hat I mean.
curtislt
Frank,

You make a few good points (some of the handlers had no business in the ring) and some not so.

I believe the salient point is; that no matter the setting or ambience, I see no big difference in the horses.

The European EE horses you displayed, in your link, are largely USA imports or descendants thereof.

Did we goof up and keep all the bad ones? Did you look at Al Lahab's pedigree?

Anyway, just my observation. You are certainly entitled to yours, too. BTW, Roger, Frank didn't come over here to "bash" us. As clearly stated, he was able to do so from the comfort of his own home via our wonderful, free, live-feed video. Thank you sponsors.

curt
julieM
Frank;

I wasnt in the US so I didnt see the horses in the flesh. (The only way I think that it is possible to judge). Photos, videos and film can often be deceiving. That is why when I see alot of small eyes and bad conformation in many of the photos from your example (EUROPE), I think that perhaps its the photos.
As for points concering legs from what I have seen in Europe I feel that points of 17 are often very generous and that 14 would more often than not, be enough.

Its only my opinion, but lets not call the kettle black.

Juliem
Roger
QUOTE (curtislt @ Jun 6 2008, 08:33 AM)
Frank,

You make a few good points (some of the handlers had no business in the ring) and some not so.

I believe the salient point is; that no matter the setting or ambience, I see no big difference in the horses.

The European EE horses you displayed, in your link, are largely USA imports or descendants thereof.

Did we goof up and keep all the bad ones? Did you look at Al Lahab's pedigree?

Anyway, just my observation. You are certainly entitled to yours, too. BTW, Roger, Frank didn't come over here to "bash" us. As clearly stated, he was able to do so from the comfort of his own home via our wonderful, free, live-feed video. Thank you sponsors.

curt
*


Curt,

My mistake. I re-read his post and see now he is viewing the EE via the internet feed. All the more reason to respect his take on the show. Imagine being so gifted that one can tell from streaming internet what the quality of horses is and atmosphere of the venue.

Roger
Pete Hiatt
Al Lahab is an Imperial Imdal son. Imdal was on lease from Pat & Barbara Vallee's (of America) at Uri Arielli's in Israel for four breeding seasons. The last time I looked there were something like 17 National champions from this lease. Imdal was sent over from the Vallees to help relations in the Middle East. Imdao was World champion and 3 time Event Supreme Champion/high scorer. He was 2nd at our Nationals due to two paid off judges, one who was dumped the following year. The winner was booed that year.

There IS a problem with scoring at the Event. Their European system of scoring is not used specifically and is unfortunately modified with the American system. The Euro system works if you appropriately judge each part of the horse. It is theoretically possible to give a horse a 20 in type while giving a 12 in legs or movement. But the judges here do not like to embarrass an owner or handler with the poor score especially on a well known horse or handler. As a result, the scores don't work. This helps the line of well promoted horses bred for looks and no consideration given to legs/motion. Some of these are purposefully made to break in front of judges so that the horrible movement won't get even a worse score.
Baraka
QUOTE (Frank @ Jun 6 2008, 06:29 AM)
Go to Poland and wtch this shows and horses... go to Paris .... go to Qatar .... go to the show in Jordan and you know hat I mean.
*

Dear Frank,
Before I go forward with my comments, I'd like to pass on what I have just heard. My computer screen is split, so I can watch the show while I type. The announcer has just quoted the three NON-AMERICAN judges, all saying "This is one of the most beautiful classes they have seen anywhere in the world." So much for your comment on quality. I guess it's why buyers from all over the world, including Europe and the Middle East, are still coming here to buy, even with the high cost of exportation.

You must have one of the most advanced computers in the world to be able to see all that you claim. I have a new, very high resolution, flat monitor. Most of the time, when on full screen, it looks like I am watching through water. The small version is too small for me to see details.

If one is to be so critical of this particular horse show, citing Paris, Qatar and Jordan for a comparison (I haven't been to Poland, so can't speak of that show), at least please compare apples to apples. The only vaild comparison is the pedigrees, which are largely first or second generation American, as has been pointed out.

This Egyptian Event has over 400 entries. How do these numbers compare to the entries in the shows you have cited? It takes us from Monday to the following Saturday night to complete the U.S. Egyptian Event. Our small Class A and Class B shows, and we have hundreds if not thousands of them, are almost consistently larger than the shows you have mentioned.

As we encourage our owners to be active with their own horses, many are shown by family members or other amateurs. It goes without saying that they don't have the expertise (or time) to condition, train and handle as well as the full time professionals, with staff. Shows that are so open to everyone, is naturally going to have a variety in horse quality and handler expertise. If you take a horse to Paris, you'd darn sure better have a high profile handler. Let's not forget also that Paris is not restricted to only Egyptian bloodlines (aprox. 3% of the breed), as we are.

I would go so far to say that if you took only the U.S. EE horses shown by professionals, entries would still be larger than the European Event, as well as Paris. Perhaps you don't recognize our professionals when you compare them to the European ones, as they compare quite well. It was an American handler who won that class I mentioned above. One owner handler just won the 3 year old stallion class, over some of your European professionals. In the class now in the ring, at least two horses are being shown by children shorter than their horses withers, and doing extremely well. One of these children has won this class for at least the last two years, and he STILL doesn't reach his mares withers (and some handlers are adults)! The other small child, a girl this time, just won the class against some excellent adults and horses.

Have you ever thought that perhaps leg scores are used by judges to "adjust" their line up of favorites? It seems that 16's are average, regardless of how good or bad they might be. How many 20's do you see in legs as compared to other qualities? Do you believe there is that much difference? I don't. There are a lot of bad legs out there, but the same is true of other points.

The Kentucky Horse Park, is one of the largest and most well designed equine facilities in the world. The arena you are viewing is the largest I've seen, with the exception of coliseums, and beautifully lit. I would say this arena is at least as large as Paris, and the grounds many times larger. You could probably put the Aachen show arena in it, including seating, maybe 2 1/2 to 3 times.

It's true that attendance is down, but there are some very good reasons which have nothing to do with the show itself. Probably at the top of the list is the soaring gas prices that we American's aren't accustomed to with our big, gas guzzling cars, trucks ,and those heavy Diesel trucks that bring the horses, sometimes more than a thousand miles, to this show. Note the size of America, while you are at it, and compare that. I'm home because I have a mare due to foal, and client mares who will need semen this week. That's true of many of us - caring for our horses first.

Frank, the goal of the Pyramid Society and Egyptian Event are foremost for education. Seminars are held throughout the show, and open barn parties to introduce everyone to the breeding programs of the various farms. No where else can a new person familiarize themselves with the results of breeding programs, stallions they may be considering, and get so much information in such a short time. Breeders and handlers alike, are there to answer questions, and quick to help others when needed. It is not, and was never meant to be, just another horse show. It is so much more than a show that is only about egos.

As said earlier on this thread, apparently you have to be part of this to appreciate all it entails. Maybe like yourself, I have been to some shows in other countries who made me proud to see what I have at home. I'm sorry you have been so disappointed.
Cheryl L
Very well said, Barbara.

The Park itself is one of the most beautiful areas. Large, mature trees, shaded, dapple shade and sunny areas abound. If you are tired of being around the "show" section, wander out a little, find a park bench and read a book.
The people are friendly.

The show arena, is wonderful. I had a friend travel with me several years in a row. She likes horses, her daughter and I show. She is not into the whole showing thing. She brings a good book and reads, during some of the classes.

I much prefer showing inside, in Kentucky, the temperatures soar to the upper 90's and that is Farhenheit. The dewpoints (moisture saturation in the air) can reach the 70's, which is tropical. The air can be so thick, you may feel the need to sprout gills, to get the required oxygen out of it.
Thunderstorms can spring up any minute. So showing inside is preferrable, to my tastes and I believe to the many people that like to be in the stands.
I was going to the EE, before the Arena was covered. It was hot and miserable and people were getting major sunburns. Then if it rained............you got wet. Then the sun came out and you were miserable.

I love the EE and I am still sad, that I was unable to attend. Next year, I will be back.

Cheryl
barbara.gregory
I have been to the Kentucky Horse Park when I visited the States but sadly not when the EE was on; it is a dream of mine to go back for the event. maybe one year!

Barbara biggrin.gif
gbfahne.gif
HLM
Good morning all

Dear Frank

I am afraid, I have to agree with you on most of your post. I had to return one day early, so can only give my comments and opinion of the younger aged classe I watched and the Stallion show case.

entry number started with "101", so there were a bit over 300 horses at the show.
I was disappointed in the quality of horses last year, but this year it was absolutely
horrible. I saw "One" young mare which could "Move". Legs were so bad, I am wondering what on this earth one is to do with these many deformed horses.
Scores were far, far too high for the rest of the conformation point and by and large should have been at least one third less.. One can not judge head and neck together either.

enhancing the poor movement and poor confomation was when the handlers let their entry go in circle, after circle, after circle around themselves. this is when one could realy see the imbalance, the poor, poor movement by not being able stepping under and showing impulsion etc. Well they just DID NOT HAVE IT,
because the proper conformation was not there. It was pittyful to my eyes.

One young bay colt was so bad, two horse experts next to me and I discussed the horse and wondered why it was entered at a show at all. THE HORSE WON!.

the conformation problems I saw were:
1) Mutton whithers,
2) Soft backs
3) poor coupling
4) Spindly legs- poor forearm muscling, too light cannons.
5) Poor Gaskins
6) Hoofs far, far too small for the body.
7) Poor hocks.
8) Some necks set on too low and some longer on the bottom than the top.
9) Parked out
10) Many shallow all over
11) and especially great lack of substance.

However, each entry was presented in very good condiion. some still showed that earlier shaving of the eye sockets, which of course ENHANCED the small eyes to be even smaller, a lot of baby oil was on those heads, and as ususal those heads were pointed to the stars.

the handlers in many cases were not helped but highly hindered by the Indian screams coming from the fans. the horses woud come in trying to trot straight,
and this creaming broke them up, they lost momentum, and I guess with it a ribbon. Dont people EVER learn about anything about a horse?

there were two people trying to enhance the movement of their horses with BIG GREEN GARBAGE BAgs to make horribLe noises. I tried THREE TIMES with one saying " Sir" "sir" "sir" and when I did not get a reply, gently tipped this man on the shoulder. He turned around and I said " Please at once stop this undignified behavior with your garbage bag. this is a horse show and not a cattle run"
He turned like a vicious viper at me, screaming" dont you ever touch me again" (and I apologyzed for such). He claimed what he was doing is in the rules, had checked with the judges, the stewards etc. became outragous in his behavior and
I thought for a moment he was gong to hit me. I told him " you obviously havent gotten a clue about horses". I though to myself, what a "wimp" going after a little ole 77 year old lady who tried in a nice way to stop this unethical and distasteful behavior. I HAVE HIS NAME. Many people feel that by using enhancements to make a horse move, obviously have one which cant otherwise.

the way the judges judged confused me a bit. these are breeding classes, and the horses should walk( none could) or trot in in a straight line. this is how one can see balance etc. Many horses did NOT have the arabian type, bodywise, except for the head. Take the head off and it could be any breed.

The stallion show case was disapointing to me. There were 3 stallions which were realy nice, the rest has to grow up for us to conclude. Some for sure were not breeding stock and might even barely make a good gelding.

And then my heart felt happy. The Hunterpleasure class has 11 entries, all doing real good, except none could "walk". they could have walked, if ridden better for it.
The western pleasure class did not have many entries, but it was nice to see their horses NOT looking between their front legs to see the exit gate.

I looked at Amin++ again and realy like this horse more and more. Also Gay Shafeen+++ was excellent. I guess he must have gotten that third place because of his horrible long and overshoed front hoofs and his tail hitting the ground. I think they want a shorter tail, more befitting a stress performance horse.. This horse truly is a darling, a real good horse. Regardless, I was a little suprised to have Botswana get a ribbon ahead of him, while he I believe has not been performing under saddle nor has the front legs to do so, which I think came through an accident or whatever. If it does not breed on, then we have the answer and I have seen some of his get which have no problem in the front legs.

The PS staff as usual tried their very best. what made me sad that they did not have for many days the endurance race rentries, which should have been one OF THE MOST IMPORTANT clues. the athmosphere in general was a bit lame,
the music could have been a bit better.

the merchants must also have had disapointing days because of the possibly lack of sales. Anyway the above is just my opinion.

All take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
LMG
I agree with Hansi and Frank. One of the horses had so much oil on it, that the lead kept slipping through the handler's hands, and a ring side viewer told me that they had to get a towel to remove the excess - so there are others who made the same observation about the oils, etc.

Lots of bad legs, many upright shoulders, necks that are less than they should be, but there are a handful of horses who seemed to be quite nice.

Sorry about not having a castle, Frank, it just comes with the territory, but I do think you have made fair comment. I was there in 2003, 2005, 2006 and thought there were a lot of people who loved the horses, but didn't recognize poor conformation. But, it is difficult to tell anyone that their kid is not beautiful - as my brother always says: Every Crow's Baby is the Blackest.

LMG
Pete Hiatt
I was always disappointed that not more was done to get kids interested in the EE and EE West. There was never anyone but owners in the stands at the EE West so invitations to 4H's in the West would have gotten a lot of interest. We always had Patrick there, so he, alone, would have been a great draw for them. I haven't been to Lexington for some years, but I imagine it is much the same. I just don't believe they have gotten over the speculation of the 80's and still do not understand that the Egyptian has become democratized. It is a small owner's horse now, and few have the money or interest to show.

The PS has never gone after these people. Their big move to do so was to lower the yearly member rate from $300 to $250. They thought that was a strong move to get these people interested. Kinda pitiful, really. Back in the 90's, I started a sales group in Oregon and identified a bit over 100 farms with Straights and asil horses just in little Oregon. About 25 became members at $35 which was enough to advertize nationally and locally. The PS never showed any interest in these folks. For a nominal member amount (say $50-75), the PS could do something similar with the only benefit being a wider sales potential. I think this would triple membership and lead to more full memberships. But mentioning it is like talking to a stone wall. They are really nice people at the PS, but their blinders are never going to come off. It is still "Why doesn't everyone appreciate what we have done for everyone in the past. They should support us." The Egyptian owners are more concerned with a few tons of hay in the barn and what the PS can do for them NOW. The two won't be getting together any time soon. There are a lot of great horses out there who will die unknown in the vast outreaches of the US. Locally, we had a big SE who dominated the cowboy penning. Probably no one outside of the state ever heard of him. The cowboys only referred to him as "that damned Arab". tongue.gif
LMG
Hey, Pete:

Al Khamsa is going to have it's convention in Oregon in 2009. It should be exciting, since the Oregon people were so very supportive of the Al Khamsa Convention here in beautiful downtown Paso Robles and it's enviorns.

Perhaps, we could start now, working on SE owners, to consider bringing their horses to the Convention and getting the people in the West an opportunity to have their horses seen.

Of course, that also depends on whether we have to rely on the horses to pull the horse trailers.

LMG
bearchaseranch
Dear Frank,


Thank you for the link to the Egyptian Event Europe. I enjoyed viewing it. Looks like lots of fun!! biggrin.gif

Pat
Bear Chase Ranch
Pete Hiatt
Oregon is certainly horse country. We have wild ones and tame ones. We are the home of Homer Davenport and the Doyles. We even have real horse riding cowboys on the vast Eastern deserts. Should be fun. My ranch will be on the open list.
HLM
DEar Pete and Lauriee

I wished you had been there Pete, you would have gotten an eyefull.
The colt/stallion classes I saw where truly questionable.Never seen that many bad studs - these are young ones- together before. Most all I saw could not light a candle to those at the AK convention.

The PS has problems for a long time, but you are right, they wont listen. I spoke to one of their board members and all I heard were lousy excuses, that we should not remind of the past, but see today and tomorrow. "Selective breeding" also appers to be misunderstood and people apparently think it means selecting non tested halter champions. We oldtimers know what selective breeding means,namely to breed to and from the best

Well, how on this earth can you do this, if we want to improve, bring back basics,when they even refuse to think of the past?

there were quite a few horse experts there, oldtime judges who just shook their heads. Not that the judging was bad, what was bad that the horses were rewarded
18-20 point scores when these should have been 8-10. As you know I recently was in Oregon- my first time- and hardly any of the SEs I saw would have been able to make it there under saddle. All the good stuff was bred away, intensified
with continous ignorant breeding methods.

I am so very sorry to make these statements, but how can it be improved when many dont know what should be improved, eh. I often think of van Fleet's Zarif, working cattle all day long and at night playing Polo without he ever changing horses.I think of you guys in the west riding through rough mountain terrain,comming home sound and living a long healthy life. I think of Mike (Heirloms) Amir and what he went through and still keeps on going.
I see Amin++ doing so much and so well in Western performance, still so sound, so happy, and so kind and gentle. and this is how the SEs used to be at my time.
that includes the beautiful Gay shafeen+++, who cant get a breeding, imagine.

I asked the board member also, as I have suggested many times, why dont you establish calsses for get of Se stallions out of any kind of mare. the person thought there where very few, when I know that this is not so. I told the party that it would bring stud fees to the stud owners, because most people have their own stud and wont breed from others. Mind not open again either I thought.

I simply dont know what to say or do anymore to make people wake up.
It is so frustrating. So it boils down to our smaller breeders doing the right thing and the others I guess have to learn to eat their horses. This is awful to say,I know, but the truth. I went with Judi Forbis down memory lane a bit, and we both agreed that too much has changed and not for the better.


Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Sharabia
QUOTE (LMG @ Jun 7 2008, 01:31 PM)
Hey, Pete:

Al Khamsa is going to have it's convention in Oregon in 2009.  It should be exciting, since the Oregon people were so very supportive of the Al Khamsa Convention here in beautiful downtown Paso Robles and it's enviorns.

Perhaps, we could start now, working on SE owners, to consider bringing their horses to the Convention and getting the people in the West an opportunity to have their horses seen.

Of course, that also depends on whether we have to rely on the horses to pull the horse trailers.

LMG
*


Would this idea also include SE/AK horses of the Canadian variety? - As I presume it may, due to the wonderful hospitality of this group. Regardless, this is one to attend for sure.

This is a great idea to present SE of different varieties and disciplines. A person could also generate media exposure in a couple of ways by placing a well executed "bug" in the media "ear" - which can be done with little expense as well, and little effort on a writer's part...

Stimulates some thinking on this end,
Sheila Bautz

PS - Anyone know if all the Al Khamsa III Volumes have been mailed yet? I haven't got mine, nor a bill for advertising. Still waiting... smile.gif
Pete Hiatt
Hansi, in returning from a Vegas gun show last year, I took the desert route through Winnemucka, Nv towards Burns, Or. In the middle of the high desert (maybe 5000-6000') I saw a herd of wild horses right along side the road intermixed with a herd of pronghorn antelope. These were the dead ringers of the Spanish Barbs. These are true wild horses (for 400 years) and each one looked in terrific condition (in January yet) and ready for an endurance race. Amazing how Momma Nature can breed better than most humans.

As horrible as warfare was to horses, it required men to breed to performance standards as does racing/endurance. Now, we no longer do this and halter classes were a good idea as halter classes are a breeding class. Well, so much for the effectiveness of halter classes in improving the breed. The formula for some of the big promotors has been to breed only for head and we are reaping the results. The problem has been to promote to people who have no ideas of what a well rounded horse should look like. But all of them can spot a pretty head. Too bad.

For the newbies out there, find a mentor who appreciates movement. You can breed for BOTH beauty AND performance.
chloe1
Iam so happy that the Egyptian Event was fed on line this year, for those of us that couldnt attend. It was great to keep up with the show but there is nothing like being there and experiencing the show and the spectacular horses!. The feed is good to see the general entries but you cannot judge the classes from the feed.
I think its very immature of you to judge our horses and give such a harsh evaluation from a computer screen. Iam wondering are you a judge?
How funny that all of Europe and the middle East are constantly purchasing our
Us Bred horses and then showing them overseas and winning with them!.
I sure hope next time you go to a show in Europe you look up the pedigrees of the winners. Some our best Egyptian as well as purebred horses have been sold overseas. Iam very worried that some of our best bloodstock is being exported.
Unfortunetly the small breeder most sometime part with their valuable treasures
to keep their dreams going. We have some of the finnest European trainers fly in for the Egyptian Event In Lexington! every year. We have the best of handlers and the upcoming inexperienced ones. The same applies with the horses some are the best and some are not but that is why this is America and everyone has a chance! . Also our amateur classes are wonderful for the owner breeder.
Iam sure we are not the best but the love and bond between horse and owner in the ring is incredible! The joy ones feels when you have delivered and raised your foal and then to go in the ring and win!, or just show.That is what the Egyptian Event is about!
Its not about EGO! or about money, Its about the love for the Egyptian Arabian horse.
For those of us who attend every year to meet our fellow friends, and cheer
each other on, its a wonderful vacation with our horses as well as a horse show.. I wouldnt trade the Kentuckly horse park for anywhere else in the World!. Maybe next year you should visit us in Kentucky. Iam sure you will be impressed with our horses and mostly with our Hospitality.
HLM
Dear Chloe1

Please keep on dreaming.Of course judging from a screen is not that good. BUT I WAS THERE!!!.

Of course some of the best SEs were exported, but some where not so good.
Most of what is left could hardly be of interest to a true breeder.

Yes, our smaller breeders see it as you do, but it is the large breeder whois there for only one reason, to promote and sell their stock fto highprices. I saw a few horses wining for which I would not give $ 1.000.- because they are useless as a "horse".! And Yes, they belonged to some large breeders, imagine.

to all the faults mentioned before, this year at the EE I noticed very long steep pasterns, or long slopy ones with a club foot at the end and standing as an almost adult on weanling hoofs. Now what do you think one can do with thew horses? I saw more soft backs then ever before and I guess "ribbs" are out of style, eh.

I travel quite a bit, visiting farms, looking at horses and believe me seen some excellent ones at our smaller breeders, right in pasture. Read what Pete Hiat and Mike (Heirloom) state about what they do/did with their fantastic SEs. And there are many others doing the same. But you wont see their horses at the EE, they know better.It is also a matter of finances now.

I love to say" I saw some uper horses at the Event" and may be that day will come again.

Now, if you want to see more excellent horses, look at the Asils, be it Davenport or Doyles. you just might get a very pleasant suprise. And this is where an international focus starts to blossom I have the feeling. Al Khamsa and the desert Institut, the Asil Club Germany are doing the right thing.May be ore attention should be given to them and their horses.At least what I saw got good legs
and excellent movement.

So defend all you want, but be fair and accurate.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
mistuarabians
QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 8 2008, 02:10 PM)
Dear Chloe1

Please keep on dreaming.Of course judging from a screen is not that good. BUT I WAS THERE!!!.

Of course some of the best SEs were exported, but some where not so good.
Most of what is left could hardly be of interest to a true breeder.

Yes, our smaller breeders see it as you do, but it is the large breeder whois there for only one reason, to promote and sell their stock fto highprices. I saw a few horses wining for which I would not give $ 1.000.- because they are useless as a "horse".! And Yes, they belonged to some large breeders, imagine.

to all the faults mentioned before, this year at the EE  I noticed very long steep pasterns, or long slopy ones with a club foot at the end and standing as an almost adult on weanling hoofs. Now what do you think one can do with thew horses? I saw more soft backs then ever before and I guess "ribbs" are out of style, eh.

I travel quite a bit, visiting farms, looking at horses and believe me seen some excellent ones at our smaller breeders, right in pasture. Read what Pete Hiat and Mike (Heirloom) state about what they do/did with their fantastic SEs. And there are many others doing the same. But you wont see their horses at the EE, they know better.It is also a matter of finances now.

I love to say" I saw some uper horses at the Event" and may be that day will come again.

Now, if you want to see more excellent horses, look at the Asils, be it Davenport or Doyles. you just might get a very pleasant suprise. And this is where an international focus starts to blossom I have the feeling. Al Khamsa and the desert Institut, the Asil Club Germany are doing the right thing.May be ore attention should be given to them and their horses.At least what I saw got good legs
and excellent movement.

So defend all you want, but be fair and accurate.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*



You are correct Hansi!

And although it is hard to look at a computer screen to see the actual Event- Frank is dead on, on his comments.
Yes the presentations were off- most did not trot their horses- How can you score for movement when there is none? The constant head bobbing and jerking necks makes you wonder if they ever had troted out in a straight line. The horses only know to trot in fear in most cases.... there were very few that where lead at the shoulder and in a controlled manner- with lots of action. You Can get a good trot and action off a horse even if you are at his shoulder.

The numbers in the classes were low- maybe due to the economy- Who knows... but my question is this also-- Are you really that proud to get a "Top Ten" when there is only 5 in the class?

The atmosphere was a little off- I would have to say it was due to the weather- VEry Hot!!! The years I have gone there was a bit more excitement and movement from people.... I myself was plopped down in a seat with my feet up - very stationary because I found a good breeze to keep cool with.....

And the legs issue- Whos knows.. we all can't figure out what is wanted in legs... because some that we thought were good got bad scores?? It is hard as a breeder to figure out what "we" are doing wrong and how to correct it when the scores are all over the place.

Now as far as makeup goes- Yes there is A LOT of makeup- Whether you say, Cheryl it is not allow- it doesn't matter- It still is happening. And usually the small person is the one who gets told they are not allowed to have it on.

I dont think that Frank is "bashing" the Event- I think he is giving his opinion... and maybe we should listen to opinions to make the Arabian industry better as we have all wanted to see it do?

While overall - I LOVE going to the Event and enjoy meeting people and talking horse. This IS a great place and show- And yes as all shows and events need improvement. But without others opinions and suggestions then there wont be any change for the better. Remember that this country was created because there was unrest and dissappointment in how their mother countries were run and treated them.... we all want a good thing and must work hard to get there. So having constructive ideas about how to make the change is necessary.

I do have to say- we are getting there- the numbers may have been down- But overall- there is less hard jerking on the heads, horses were a bit more relaxed, the "prizes" were spread out between smaller breeders and larger ones- a general "spread the wealth".


These are just my opinions- just as we all have had here...
Just giving my input as a person who was AT the Event This year...

Jessica
heidip
ONE day Henny-penny was picking up corn in the cornyard when--whack!-- something hit her upon the head. "Goodness gracious me!" said Henny- penny; "the sky's a-going to fall; I must go and tell the king."

So she went along and she went along and she went along till she met Cocky-locky. "Where are you going, Henny-penny?" says Cocky-locky. "Oh! I'm going to tell the king the sky's a-falling," says Henny- penny. "May I come with you?" says Cocky-locky. "Certainly," says Henny-penny. So Henny-penny and Cocky-locky went to tell-the king the sky was falling.

They went along, and they went along, and they went along, till they met Ducky-daddles. "Where are you going to, Henny-penny and Cocky- locky?" says Ducky-daddles. "Oh! we're going to tell the king the sky's a-falling," said Henny-penny and Cocky-locky. "May I come with you?" says Ducky-daddles. "Certainly," said Henny-penny and Cocky- locky. So Henny-penny, Cocky-locky and Ducky-daddles went to tell the king the sky was a-falling.

So they went along, and they went along, and they went along, till they met Goosey-poosey, "Where are you going to, Henny-penny, Cocky- locky and Ducky-daddles?" said Goosey-poosey. "Oh! we're going to tell the king the sky's a-falling," said Henny-penny and Cocky-locky and Ducky-daddles. "May I come with you," said Goosey-poosey. "Certainly," said Henny-penny, Cocky-locky and Ducky-daddles. So Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles and Goosey-poosey went to tell the king the sky was a-falling.

So they went along, and they went along, and they went along, till they met Turkey-lurkey. "Where are you going, Henny-penny, Cocky- locky, Ducky-daddles, and Goosey-poosey?" says Turkey-lurkey. "Oh! we're going to tell the king the sky's a-falling," said Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles and Goosey-poosey. "May I come with you? Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles and Goosey-poosey?" said Turkey-lurkey. "Why, certainly, Turkey-lurkey," said Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, and Goosey-poosey. So Henny-penny, Cocky- locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey and Turkey-lurkey all went to tell the king the sky was a-falling.

So they went along, and they went along, and they went along, till they met Foxy-woxy, and Foxy-woxy said to Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey and Turkey-lurkey: "Where are you going, Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey- lurkey?" And Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey-lurkey said to Foxy-woxy: "We're going to tell the king the sky's a-falling." "Oh! but this is not the way to the king, Henny- penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey and Turkey-lurkey," says Foxy-woxy; "I know the proper way; shall I show it you?" "Why certainly, Foxy-woxy," said Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey-lurkey. So Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky- daddles, Goosey-poosey, Turkey-lurkey, and Foxy-woxy all went to tell the king the sky was a-falling. So they went along, and they went along, and they went along, till they came to a narrow and dark hole. Now this was the door of Foxy-woxy's cave. But Foxy-woxy said to Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey- lurkey: "This is the short way to the king's palace you'll soon get there if you follow me. I will go first and you come after, Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey-lurkey." "Why of course, certainly, without doubt, why not?" said Henny-Penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosey, and Turkey-lurkey.

So Foxy-woxy went into his cave, and he didn't go very far but turned round to wait for Henny-Penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey- poosey and Turkey-lurkey. So at last at first Turkey-lurkey went through the dark hole into the cave. He hadn't got far when "Hrumph," Foxy-woxy snapped off Turkey-lurkey's head and threw his body over his left shoulder. Then Goosey-poosey went in, and "Hrumph," off went her head and Goosey-poosey was thrown beside Turkey-lurkey. Then Ducky- daddles waddled down, and "Hrumph," snapped Foxy-woxy, and Ducky- daddles' head was off and Ducky-daddles was thrown alongside Turkey- lurkey and Goosey-poosey. Then Cocky-locky strutted down into the cave and he hadn't gone far when "Snap, Hrumph!" went Foxy-woxy and Cocky- locky was thrown alongside of Turkey-lurkey, Goosey-poosey and Ducky- daddles.

But Foxy-woxy had made two bites at Cocky-locky, and when the first snap only hurt Cocky-locky, but didn't kill him, he called out to Henny-penny. So she turned tail and ran back home, so she never told the king the sky was a-falling
An American Breeder
Ahhhh Heidi, I am hearing from many who were at the Event, Henny-penny, Cocky-locky, Ducky-daddles, Goosey-poosy, etcera and they totally agree with what Hansi has stated, though allbeit in different terms, different ways, but the bottom line is still the same.

I thought we were supposed to be about the horse, the Arabian horse, and not individual personalities? And I do not want that to come across as anything negative, just asking, isn't this about the horse first? Thank you
heidip
I watched the whole show online, the judging this year was fairer than I've ever seen. The quality of the horses was fantastic and the small owners rocked. two WI horses Arabest Samir and Radaar won. You don't get any smaller than these breeders., owners. now I've yet to see hansi stand any where in that ring but way at the end so she can stand out side and smoke.I just get sick and tired of the negative bull every year, I saw more great stuff than bad, the one horse that I could even see had bad legs on the feed got 13's
arabrider57
greetings all:

Well my wife and I were not able to attend the EE this year but did watch on the live feed.

Now since this was my first impression of the Event I will say thank you to the staff for the forsight to have the live feed availiable for me to critique. I was able to see many horses (good or bad) I otherwise would have had no contact with. For that I am appreciative.

Now as for an opinion:

Consider this as from what I am new to the egyptian event venu but a horse person for 30 years.

I was glad to see some performance classes were still there, and it seemed to me that the stallion showcase (which is what the EE overall is reffered to when criticized) was much better than the stallion classes.

I had some problems with the presentaion and announcing ( I realize there may be a reason for anonimity for a horse by name or trainer by name by hey, you got a judge from south africa and one from the middle east for heavens sake! you PAY them to be independent) on the Saturday stallion class, No names were called out when they entered the ring and all the horses were in constant movement, almost like a circus atmosphere. I can see how a good horse could be lost in the shuffle. I also saw post legs, mutton croups, weak heart girths and long backs on many of the event entries mares and stallions. I did see some very nice representatives as well.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
While it is not suppose to be a horse "SHOW" as such, It certainly looked a lot like the old scottsdale days of the 80's and 90's, trainers jerking and intimidating their horses. Saw a few in the mare class that looked like they wanted a piece of their handler. I was pulling for the horse. only a few barns won a lot of the major classes and for me it was a lot of sizzle and very little steak. I appreciated the tribute film to Ms Forbis but must say I was surprised when neither she nor her husband acknowleged the crowd or the event staff for such a wonderful tribute to their legacy. Kind of a micro cosum of the industry as it is now I guess.

I agree with many that the endurance and performance horses should have had more exposure and that many quality horses were given the gate in the halter classes but hey, if a blue SHOW ribbon is involved along with annual bragging rights you get a horse show mentality. expect it.

I am still considering exactly how I feel about the EE and will have to reflect a bit more on that one. I plan on attending in 09 and taking my horse to the endurance ride so it does serve a purpose. As a small breeder I see no value in entering the mailestrom that is the competitive judging arena only in success by performance.

these are my impressions of the event as a viewer, if I was looking to get into the breed it would not have been an incentive. I look forward to seeing the horses in the flesh next year (gas will be 9-10 bucks a gallon by then) but am afraid we will see fewer and fewer small farms represented.

my humble opinion for today cool.gif

Mark
Windward Farm
South Carolina
marywweeks
Boy. I wasn't prepared to read this thread. My husband, Mike, and I returned late yesterday PM from the Event. We showed my mare, WRA Summers Kiss, in the Open Hunter and Hunter Championship classes. I rode her sidesaddle. We had a wonderful time.

Let me preface the comments above by stating that we attended the very first Egyptian Event in the early '80s. We certainly enjoyed that one, but our bloodlines of choice strayed away from SE breeding. When Summer came into my life, via the kindness of her dam's breeder, Marian Beatty, my perspective of SEs changed drastically.

We haven't shown at the Class A level since 1989 for a variety of reasons, but to make it brief, the atmosphere at the Regional and National level was so poisonous and intense that we became totally estranged from it. I pursued other interests with my horses.

After all these years, we returned to a large show, the Event, with a certain amount of trepidation. How silly we were to have worried. We had a fabulous time. People were so kind and friendly. We were fed like royalty through a variety of barn parties and the "one for all and all for one" attitude in Barn 9 made the whole experience a delight. Thank you Kevin Shelton for hosing out my Brenderup. Allowing us to use your "special" hose was incredibly kind. smile.gif And thank you Alice of Bent Tree for your Mississippi hospitality and generosity! What a gracious lady you were - as were so many others we met.

Summer and I weren't on our game. We had a series of boo-boos, the last of which was a "wardrobe failure" when the button to my sidesaddle apron popped off and the velcro didn't hold it during the Championship class. (This was a "skirt" malfunction, not the other kind...) We hand-galloped around with skirts flying everywhere (a bit disconcerting for the mare...) We were quite fairly judged and well treated throughout. People actually sought us out to thank us for coming and bringing a sidesaddle horse for them to see.

Our overall impression was quite good. No horse is perfect, but the horses we saw were true "3-circle" horses with lovely chiseled heads and quite nice bodies. While we weren't on the ground judging the horses, we were able to see quite a bit from the stands. I didn't have any argument with the overall judging. It's a horse show. Each horse there, with few exceptions, brought something with it to show us as spectators.

The dedication and effort of the Pyramid Society staff was evident to us. From the first contact I made with them about bringing my mare to the day of our departure, we were treated with respect and kindness. How refreshing!

"So?" You may ask"Is it as good as the Event in Europe?" Or "Really the horses were somewhat inferior." Maybe you would be right. However, I can tell my totally shocked horse friends that my husband, after ALL these years, is actually talking about "next year" and what we'll need to do to prepare Summer for it. If you knew my Mike, you'd be stunned as well.

Mary Weeks
Bay Area Arabians
QUOTE (Frank @ Jun 6 2008, 04:10 AM)
Roger,
maybe your attitude is why the EE in the USA is the way it is instead of making a progress?  biggrin.gif  Just a thought.
In the USA itself this show is regarded by most handlers and trainers not as a "real" horse show where quality wins but more of a festival for the familiy where everybody gets a nice ribbon...
Which straight Egyptian Event Supreme Champion of the last years has won in open competition, too? With the exception of the Israeli bred Al Lahab?
*


Dear Frank,

Thanks for the input! It is needed, but no one will listen to you in order to make it better- it's sad but true. Again, great points and the reason I don't take my horse all the way across the US to show there.

Shy Gayfeen ++++// won a few years ago and is only one of three stallions in the USA with this title from the Open Circuit in both halter and Hunter Pleasure. He is an amazing horse with a young and brilliant owner who put untold thousands into showing him instead of advertising him.

Brilliant!

Again, thanks for your input- not all Americans are close-minded!
Pete Hiatt
Just a couple of comments about other shows. I once attended a Crabbet Show in Oregon (usually in August). It was a delight. The atmosphere was light and smiling faces everywhere. Whips are simply NOT allowed in mare classes...period. Whips can be carried in stallion classes but for emergencies only. If you use it, you exit the ring. No makeup slop on the faces. It was really enjoyable. I don't know what % of Crabbet is required, but the new Al Khamsa book gives the % of Blunt.

The Al Khamsa Show is also a lot of fun. It is a teaching event with a showcase of major strain types. I don't think they judge horse against horse, but explain what you are seeing. There are also numerous ranches which are open barns both on the East and West side of the state.

Both of these shows are on my "A" list. Oregon is low in human population and high in horse population. On your way here, you might even see some wild horses.
LMG
The bottom line will be the money. If an event, any event, doesn't make it's bottom line, it doesn't matter whether the horses are good, bad or indifferent.
We are seeing that here in the clubs in my area (for Arabians) who just have thrown up their hands and said, we need to do something else or just close the club down.

Those who saw only wonderful horses are definitely entitled to their opinions and their breeding programs. Many of the comments regarding the horses must have been fair comment because the judges did not like the legs on many of these horses, no matter the origin of the judge, so it isn't a vast conspiracy against SE breeders by online viewers of the Event.

I also think the Pyramid Society's efforts to bring more classes with ridden horses in it needs to be applauded, and I suspect if the Society expects to survive, this, not the breeding stock classes, must be given a heck of a lot of support, since fewer and fewer people are breeding horses, therefore the ones left, should there be any desire to show them, may have only performance of one sort or another open to them.

As far as the sky falling. - the statistics seem to support that position, but I suspect that many people whose heads are going under water for the second time, may still claim that they are not drowning no matter the fact that the water has risen past the the second floor and is lapping at the roof of the structure.

One does not intend to convert non-believers to one's opinion. one merely states the obvious and then makes the changes to one's own business affairs to accord with that which appears to be more likely than not to occur.

It is not just the horse market, it is the entire economy which is under assault, and when one cannot afford the fuel to go to work, or heat their home in the winter, or pay the increased costs on living expenses which are making mega jumps all over the US, remember California, Arizona, Michigan, Florida, New Hampshire are in full blown recessions, with some of the other states right behind (econmic statistics, not mine) and in these instance, the multiple camps on the quality or lack thereof the breeding stock in Arabian Horses may be meaningless and this is especially true where there are over 90 plus banks (in the US) in risk of collapse (according to the FDIC), up 20 + from the last quarter.

Reason discussion about the direction or improvement of breeding stock, should there be any left in 10 years, may be only academic, but we should resist calling people names, because the sinking boat is carrying us all, and we may want them to allow us to sit in their lifeboat.

LMG
Isabella
Well Frank I have to agree 100% with you. The EE has been this way for years now and every year it seems to get worse. At least in Europe you can see movement! AND you are a brave man Frank for coming out and pointing out your impressions laugh.gif

Hansi posted that she is seeing these faults-

the conformation problems I saw were:
1) Mutton whithers,
2) Soft backs
3) poor coupling
4) Spindly legs- poor forearm muscling, too light cannons.
5) Poor Gaskins
6) Hoofs far, far too small for the body.
7) Poor hocks.
8) Some necks set on too low and some longer on the bottom than the top.
9) Parked out
10) Many shallow all over
11) and especially great lack of substance.

I think that the producers of SE horses today do not know good conformation (a few exceptions of course) but the majority do not know. How could they know and state as Heidi did that the quality of the horses was fantastic? WHAT????

I watched the halter finals via the streaming video which I greatly appreciated seeing and thank you to those that provided the video. BUT How could anyone judge movement in those classes? All I saw were horses going in circles around their handlers. There was one mare in the senior mare class that impressed me by the fact that she stood, square with a happy, contented expression and did not move until asked... wow, I could actually look at her laugh.gif The rest... well they all looked like the wild and crazy Arabs that we all hear about.

As always the people who put on the show work hard and deserve a big pat on the back but this is not about how hard you work to put on a show it's about the horses that are being produced and how they are shown, how they are being judged and who is doing the most winning and with what wink.gif From what I saw it's the same old stuff.. SSDD!

So quacky wacky, chicki licki or loosey goosey... the large majority of SE's out in the ring today are by enlarge useless (but beautiful headed) Arabians??? AND the frightening part of all this is that the current producers and wanna be producers all run and beg to spend money on buying or breeding to the winners of these classes? I'm still scratching my head over why?? blink.gif

JMHO

Isabella
Baraka
QUOTE (mistuarabians @ Jun 8 2008, 07:42 AM)
Now as far as makeup goes- Yes there is A LOT of makeup- Whether you say, Cheryl it is not allow- it doesn't matter- It still is happening. And usually the small person is the one who gets told they are not allowed to have it on. 
...................I do have to say- we are getting there- the numbers may have been down- But overall- there is less hard jerking on the heads, horses were a bit more relaxed, the "prizes" were spread out between smaller breeders and larger ones- a general "spread the wealth".
Jessica
*

Maybe we should define what we mean by make-up? To me, clipping and baby oil is not make up. Make-up is the application of something colored – in this case, black. Some of that might also be done, but the risk is subject to examination for evidence by the ringmaster or judge.

Personally, I hate the trend of shaving so close over the eyes. Jessica, you might remember that ZT Sharuby lost the championship at the Event, because her eyes were shaved - against the rules. The call judge told me this herself. As bad, IMO, is the pattern that is clipped from the eye down in a V shape, which makes the horse look like their eyes are weeping. That is most unappealing. Yes, these practices are still seen, but at least it isn't harmful or hereditary. BTW it is also not something only done in America, quite the contrary.

The Pyramid Society announced during the finals, that contrary to other shows, our numbers were up. I will have to take their word on that. It did look like audience attendance was down noticeably, probably for a number of reasons. My seats were also empty this year sad.gif .

I do agree that in the preliminary classes there was a good share of horses that didn't have a chance. You will always have that in shows that are not restricted to champions, and shows with those kinds of numbers. They certainly weren't as bad, overall, as most Class A's I've attended who BTW, show all bloodlines.

I did also wish for more movement. Nothing is more beautiful than an Arabian floating freely as they should. That beautiful, freight train, extended movement was lacking, overall. Through the inferior view of the computer screen, I did also see some straight shoulders, and pasterns.

Frank, as you see, I don't totally disagree with you on all points. It just seems that American shows and horses are always the quick target of criticism from across the waters, yet we seem to have the horses everyone wants! I get very weary with this, especially having been to other countries and seeing no better, in spite of what we are “told” here. Excuse me....... I will retract that on one point, but the difference is in the training and not the horses. I refer to many (not all) seen in Aachen and Paris.

There, I saw AMERICAN bred horses that I am familiar with, moving much better than they and/or other horses from their bloodlines, move in the U.S. It is my opinion that apparently these horses have been rigorously trained over cavalleties to get this kind of reach and action. I just don't think the trainers here put that kind of time into doing this. Maybe it is due to the huge numbers of show horses the pro’s have in their barns, and a lack of knowing how by the amateurs. I couldn't say. All I know is that I wish they would, as it is beautiful to see. STILL it doesn't change what the horse is, or capable of, or the pedigree. BUT I disagree that your European handlers who come here and show horses trained and conditioned here, are better than the American handlers. I can give you a good list, starting with Michael Byatt, Joe Polo (GOOD JOB JOE!), Steve Daty, and more.

My problem with the criticism is that consideration isn't given to any of the differences in our Egyptian Event, and those elsewhere. When you have these kinds of numbers, restrict the bloodlines, and open the show to everyone with an entry, there will be a great span in the quality. Period. If you will be so kind as to compare shows of 300+ horses, open to all who wish to enter their Egyptian horses (only), then the criticism would be fair (and I’d keep my mouth shut - cool.gif ).

In my opinion, the constant criticism of the Pyramid Society over the years has probably caused them (and many readers here) to turn a deaf ear or totally ignore the speaker, as it does when raising a child. No one is going to listen to this kind of thing over and over. Our experts (and experience) tell us that the way to develop improvements is through positive input. Positive guidance is the method that leads others to success. It is impossible to please everyone. I’m just sorry that the human element prevents this rise to Nirvana. We all have differences in opinions, and TG are entitled to them. It doesn’t mean that one is always more right than the other. It’s easy to tell someone else what they should do, but another to accomplish it all yourself.

NOW, what I especially liked about the Event this year, was:

This is the first time, to my memory, I have heard the panel of judges have their collective opinions of the better classes consistently announced. I thought this was very nice.

I was so pleased to see wins among a relatively broad range of conscientious, American breeders. I didn’t get the feeling, as I have before, that our awards were taken by a highly promoted horse, brought in to our country only for the purpose. The Egyptian Event is meant for the benefit of our countries breeders.

DeShazers had an especially good year. They have carefully collected a choice herd of foundation stock, weed out weaknesses, and are breeding a beautiful group of horses. They are also blessed with the resources that do not limit their ability to achieve their goals. Their whole family is involved, they are fine, dedicated people, who deserve their honors. Hats off to the DeShazers, and Joe Polo who showed them so beautifully.

As usual, the preliminaries had a variety of horses, but I thought those in the championships were those that deserved to be there, and that they were lovely classes. The judges agreed openly.

My heart was also lifted at the tremendous show of sportsmanship shown by Mike Neal, when Arabest Samir won. He’s a lovely horse with such great charisma. NEVER have I seen such joy! I am told that Samir has been with Mike for quite some time, being made ready for this show. However, Mike, who we all know is a man of great character, had another commitment and placed Samir in the capable hands of Paulo Kapechi (pardon me if I’ve spelled this wrong), to be shown. Rather than maybe being a little remorseful or jealous that he hadn’t been at the lead, Mike was thrilled. He couldn't contain himself, dashing into the ring with huge, repeated bear hugs for Paulo and everyone in reach, ear to ear smiles, and literally jumping for joy. Mike really showed the audience exactly who he is.

I also love the focus that is given to the youth amongst us. Many things are planned to entertain and educate the young attendees from Pizza parties, to judging workshops. Awards are given for our youth and amateurs, as well. CONGRATULATIONS to AMY AUSTIN, a wonderful young woman who won the Amateur handler award. I was so happy for her.

Last, our Egyptian Event always gives honor to those breeders and horses that have made great contributions to our precious breed. Few can compare to those of the Donald and Judith Forbis. How beautiful to see the video of their lives, reminding us of the 50 years of dedication this special couple have given to the horse, and what it took to get where they are today. We saw them as young people who met by chance, and discovered a common goal. Then we see them in their golden years, having achieved their dreams and goals like few in this world have done. I salute them both with great love and appreciation.

As Hansi always says, this is “just my opinion.” smile.gif .

Best Wishes
Barbara Lewis
Baraka Farm
HLM
Heidip

With these statements I dont think I could ever recommend anybody to go and
aquire a horse from you, since you apparently cant see what so many experts have. I guess that's the kind of horse you breed?

Yes I am standing at the end of the ring, because there is where the horses retire after being judged and there is where I can SEE EVERYTHING LOUD AND CLEAR. Once a while I even go into holding area and look at particular horses, imagine.

I could not stay as along as I wanted to, had to return early so only saw the young stock classes and the showcase stallion. In any case I am firm on my statements, my opinion.

Barbara-Baraka-
The deaf ear of the PS occured because they never wanted to listen, not even to a meter long copies of letters I sent with suggestions over the year. So I gues persistentcy in continuing the recommendations, opinions etc will have to be. Most amazing that you forgot to mention the most successfull and influencial breeders of the past, such as Gleannloch, etc who put the SEs on the map because their horses won at halter and in performance too many championships to count.And doug Marshal did not drive around the areana in a Bentley either,
as you know, he was a very humble man. And so were many others, sharing all they could. He did not need this promotion, his horses did it on their merrit.

I have been at the Ee most all years and give my opinion as to what my eyes see.
And my eyes see a tremendous deteriation, and no improvement. You say we should state by comparrison. I dont think we need that, because one does not need to compare a poorly conformed horse with one in another country.
A bad hock, bad tendons, mutton withers, shallow girth, soft backs, underzized hoofs, long straight pasterns, long slopy pastern with a club foot at the end, spindly legs, espcially the cannon, poorly muscled forearms and bad movement can be recognized by any exert instantly, regardless in which country or show they see it.

Our problem is that some people simply dont want to admit it, cant see it and enhancing the owners likes by giving false judgments and false applaus, does not help. THis is exactly what has helped us getting where we are today. you dont give some one an "A" in math when they cant count, and they find out lateron they cant get a job in that department.

How many people have seen a real good moving horse? How can they learn to judge it when they havent. Nobody said that even in the worsed class the winner is
not better. Judge the other entries horses compete against. Kentucky Derby versa a country track cant be compared either.

to improve is to be TRUTHFULL, at the risk of getting flack.But it is that truth which opens the eyes and teaches. Keep your head in the sand, unless you come up for air, you will suffocate. It is much better stating as it is than having them lateron find out that their $ 40,000 darling is not worth $ 4,000.
So who is hurting them more?

No hard feelings to both of you
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
heidip
Europe is so much better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwMr_UFQb28
Mr Prospector
Having watched that Youtube video with those two year old colts, I was sick to my stomach. That might be fun for the people, but most of those baby boys were scared sh!tless. I am just totally appalled.

I don't think I will ever attend a show where that is likely to happen. I had planned on showing my Anglo when it is born, but I don't think I could bring myself to expose a horse to that level of abuse. Not one person will ever justify that sort of behavior of those people as not being abuse, because that is what it is. If you treated a human that way you would go to prison. Just because they are animals does that somehow make it right.

I am so disgusted.
Karen
Cheryl L
Barbara-Baraka,
You have very eloquently captured my feelings for the Event.
Thank you,
Cheryl
southwindarabian
QUOTE (heidip @ Jun 8 2008, 10:51 PM)


Gracious-oh so much better than the Event-nobody getting run over, nobody shanking horses with bits in their mouths, nobody whipping at front legs-oh yes much better there............
chloe1
Hansi,
I do believe in dreams because without them life would be so harsh, its what keeps most people going on a bad day. I do believe this is a country of dreams.
I am not blind and saw some horses middle of the road and poor.
But what did you think of EHP Ayanna the supreme mare? She was bred by a small breeder , what about Arabest Samir? how wonderful did he look.
I congratulate the winners and i cant imagine the judges lying about the excellent classes that they judged! Well Maybe if they were payed to say that!
NOT!
I think with the way the economy is we should congratulate the horse owners
and participants for attending the show. As iit goes some people see a glass half full and some see it half empty.
southwindarabian
QUOTE (chloe1 @ Jun 9 2008, 12:55 AM)
Hansi,
I do believe in dreams because without them life would be so harsh, its what keeps most people going on a bad day. I do believe this is a country of dreams.
I am not blind and saw some horses middle of the road and poor.
But what did you think  of EHP Ayanna the supreme mare? She was bred by a small breeder , what about Arabest Samir? how wonderful did he look.
I congratulate the winners and i  cant imagine the judges lying about the excellent classes that they judged! Well Maybe if they were payed to say that!
NOT!
I think with the way the economy is we should congratulate the horse owners
and participants for attending the show.  As iit goes some people see a glass half full and some see it half empty.
*

Very nice post
Cheryl L
QUOTE (chloe1 @ Jun 8 2008, 07:55 PM)
Hansi,
I do believe in dreams because without them life would be so harsh, its what keeps most people going on a bad day. I do believe this is a country of dreams.
I am not blind and saw some horses middle of the road and poor.
But what did you think  of EHP Ayanna the supreme mare? She was bred by a small breeder , what about Arabest Samir? how wonderful did he look.
I congratulate the winners and i  cant imagine the judges lying about the excellent classes that they judged! Well Maybe if they were payed to say that!
NOT!
I think with the way the economy is we should congratulate the horse owners
and participants for attending the show.  As iit goes some people see a glass half full and some see it half empty.
*



Nice positive thinking.

Negativity is just that, negative. It leaves one with a bad feeling.
I am not saying put on rose colored glasses or anything like that.

What about the POSITIVE things about the EE. What improvements did one noticed.
Look at the excellent mare class, you can't get much better than that. The competition was stiff.

I personally think that Hansi, should have a seminar at her place. She still has horses there. It would be nice if some could trailer in their own horses for evaluation. You know a comparison from the older breeding and the newer breeding.
This way we could all learn first hand and with equine models, Hansi's expertise and knowledge of conformation and its form to function.
Everyone wants to learn from the experienced breeders, I refuse to say "old timers", here would be a great opportunity.

Cheryl
HLM
Dear Cleo1

And you should continue, except daydreaming. I dream too, even at my age, like seeing those halter stallions under saddle, watching them run at leat 25 milers and coming back home sound, educating our people about horses, all about them, etc.etc. You see those are my dreams and I wont give them up.

As I said before, I only saw the younger classes and the stallion showcase.
therefore, I can not comment. I hope to some day be able to stay longer. An Emergency brought me home.

Last year I saw some very good older mares in their class at the EE. Often it is those older horses which are still so good and correct. But this should be anybodies clue. How come the younger generations are not? How did we manage to outbreed so many qualities?

Judges lying: I never said this. I said they confused me thinking of the Boswana/Gay Shaheen comparrison and a few other placings, where I think they went off course..

I did see young ones, where I thought the 3rd or fourth horse was better than the winner. But then that is my opinion and might differ from others.

I know of a few "smaller breeders" who are extremely wealthy. I was not referring to them either, I was referring to those who were not in such lucky position.
I have seen SEs from smaller ,wealthy breeders highly over evaluated with faults so bad they hit you right between the eyes. Again, just my oldfashion opinion

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
DEar Cheryl

I have never refused to help. I rember years back the PS wanted somone to speak about racing. I have a racing licence and race since 1978. They never asked experts, they asked Eileen verdiek, a person I admire, but who could not have the experience I had, having own track,starting gate and dozens in training and/or racing at that time. True experts were seldom selected, it was who they like or not.
And when you are a person who cant be bought, is independant in many ways, you could become a thorn in some eyes. And when your publications, which took years of hard work and lots of money were pushed under the rug, because I stated things in it which was the truth and not liked, you get even more concerned.

At my time, we did not play such politics, we gave credit were due, never underestimated the taugh competition of Non SEs, and stayed gallant sportsman/woman, learning from each other.

You all can do as you please, can condone what you like and if this takes you to success, why not, I am happy for you. However, reality looks a bit different, I assure you.

Take care
Hansi. biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
chloe1
very well said Cheryl.
It would be very nice to point out the positive, because i believe there were many.
It was very refreshing that for the first year we didnt know the outcome
of the championship classes. Most of the time the big trainers bring in the overseas horses and the outcome is almost certain. I also feel the judging was fair
and most of the time the judges were on the same page.
I was very impressed with the amount of horses in the amatuer classes and also the Jr classes. Its so great to see the little ones showing!. I do believe you can get further in life with the positive appoarch. I agree with you maybe these breeders that have bred prefection and can recognize it should share their horses with us and show them so we can all apprecaite and regconize a well bred horse! It would be great for them because they would sweep the Event. This way we could have an opportunity to learn and improve our breeding programs, by breeding to these find horses. I would also like some advice on our useless horses! What do we do with them?
Imagine a world of perfection wouldnt it be just boring! Would you agree and say we are all beautiful in our special way, or must we all be tall slim young and gorgeous.
I guess this is the real question.
Cheryl L
Hansi,
This is what I mean. YOU should have a seminar. I think there are many people on this forum alone, that would love to learn from someone like you. Your knowledge and experience is there to share.
There seems to be a thirst for the knowledge that you have.
That would be a positive step forward.
Cheryl
An American Breeder
I liked the effort of the Pyramid Society towards rewarding and encouraging the junior riders. There were several awards given, including one for a junior ride who was having a difficult time with her horse but keep working on items and it was said each class she conquered one more item.

I love the stick horse class and the announcer joined in to make it quite a time for those little ones. Not only does it add for the child, it adds for all of us watching.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.