So let's take what Hansi has mentioned about the quality of the horses being judged? Comments

Legs

Movement

Here is my take on the scoring of those two areas to the STANDARD. A horse has four legs (all of mine do!) so take that 20 and divide by 4 = 5 points per leg. If a horse has three decent legs AND FEET (no offset knees, no offset cannons, no club feet, no mule foot, badly contracted heels, ya know -- the stuff up on the informational pages of AHFA/Owners Guide) that would be

either a 5 which is Perfect
or a 4 which means that the legs are in harmoney with the build of the horse
and that would be 4 x 3 = 12.

So then comes that fourth leg that may not be so perfect so if ready to fall off, a score of 1, if really bad to the point where that horse would not be sound for good normal riding, maybe a 2??? (Hansi I know you would want a zero but then the leg would have to come off the horse, and don't want that!) if the leg is average, not any really bad faults a 3, SO THEN the score becomes that 12 + a 2 or a 3

Now was that score genuine at the Event this year? I tried my best to watch the judges and one judge consistently did not go near the back end of any halter horse, made the score very quickly, did NOT like the dished heads we love here in America on our SE horses.

And then the manner of showing these horses at halter -- is this ala Scottsdale? How about the people who showed their horses quietly at halter, no wild running, no horses jerking the arm out of the armpit, striking, rearing, unmanageable, and who quietly brought their horses up to be judged, and actually had their horses under control and the horse had been taught to walk away in a straight line and continue that way at the trot?

Are we following other factions in showing our horses? Have we gone away from what we as breeders want to see?

Dear American breeder

What you did are mathematics. that does not work. When you have one flat tire on a car, you are stuck. If such leg fault is detrimental it will eventually ruin the others too. The horse can not perform under stress, it will break down. therefore such horse cant possibly get more than 6-8 points, to at least be generous.You see, these 6-8 points tell people the horse is a NONO!. Then there were some base wide, base narrow and offset cannons.

To judge legs individually can be distastreous.Just take a horse with one front leg with bad tendons to a race trainer, and if he/she is honest with you, will tell you Take it home". The horse either have four legs good enough to carry itself and the rider through and over anything, or you have an around the block in a walk limping Luie.

I have seen some of the poorest, flimpsiest hocks this time, absolutely unacceptable pasterns and hoofs, poor forearm muscling and poor gaskins and stifles. So what are you expect such horse to do, if it has it? Mind you these might not break down if the legs are okay.They just wont be able to expect such horse to do much in stress performances, such as flat and endurance racing, three day eventing. It might come back home sound, but it cant win, unless all other entries are worse. It for sure could not do reining,cutting and the like. But it is true there has been the od horse who did well even standing on poor tootsies. so lets test, eh, and see what will happen.

While I appreciate Liz Salmon, I do not go along with some of her judging legs.
Pete Cameron would never have pinned a horse with detrimental leg faults, unless it was the only horse in the ring. I am hearing all sorts of things from very knowledgeable and reputable breeders in Australia and they often are amazed of what is pinned and what is not. Sometimes horses are even sold for millions, worth may be $ 15,000, and that is awful. So who s fooling who eh?

The futurity classes had to be the worsed I ever saw in horse flesh. Those last year's yearling now as two year olds for sure made you truly see.

To be very honest (I feel bad to say this) half of the horses I saw dont even look like an arabian horse anymore. They lost the "Silhouette" could be any horse, and in many cases a bad one. If you all had seen the Syrian horses you might see better through my eyes. I truly was astonished of the high scores given to the horses. No where near in a million years where these true,accurate or deserving.

Also, the substance in most has gone to heaven, sprung ribbs are a thing of the past so are pronounced withers or deep girths. I always asked myself" If my life be depending on getting a long distance away, would I take this or that horse". And had to answer myself, "MOST CERTAINLY NOT" unless I am suicidle. I get there better just walking on my aging legs.

Therefore dear American breeder, if you have one bad leg, which would render the horse to break down, such horse in all reality should get a "O" for legs.
I am saying this, because I had at least a thousand horses- you name the breed- under my seat and know exactly what it takes. Therefor you either have four sound tootsies or you have no legs, even if three are okay. And I have never seen an elephant walkig on tooth picks either.And that's just about what many do considering the rest of their body weight.

Now, should winners be proud? Have they asked themselves what they defeated? Can they now stand up in open shows or all-Arab shows? It would be very, very tough. Trouble is, that even in the classes I watched, the best horse in it did not win. The way the judges judged/looked at the horses could not possibly have given them a clear cut picture. I guess we saw more from the grand stand than they did on the floor.

Take care
hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms








l

Hansi, I hear you. Very much I do. But when scoring legs and feet, there has to be a universal way to hold judges accountability and to have transparency.

And yes, I do mathematics. Taught it in high school too.

If you give people a score of ZERO then that has to be defined in some way or people will see a COI or worse even!

So WHAT constitutes a ZERO? For others to answer, please, as Hansi has given her answer.

I've already posted my review of the one day I was there (page 15 on the Egyptian Event 2008 Live, Live on Myhorse thread) but I did want to say again that I very much enjoyed my time at the show. I loved the Moniet El Nefous seminar. It was wonderful to hear Cynthia Culbertson, Judith Forbis, and Karen Kasper speak. I thought the 10 year old and older mare class was enchanting, and it was nice to hear the judges' appreciation of it as well. In stallions, I thought Amiin+// looked fantastic, and seemed well appreciated. It was fabulous to see him and Shy Gafeen++++// honored. Great to see Egyptian stallions with so many marks after their names!

I did not like the excessive noise for the futurity classes AT ALL, but I DID like seeing each horse brought in separately and given time to show their movement. I hope this will help everyone feel as though their horse got a good look by the judge. I loved that one of the 2nd place finishers in one of the futurities was shown to his success by his breeder/owner! HORRAY for people showing their own horses I did see three colts in particular that I enjoyed watching trot and move. The eventual Jr. champion colt Justynn filled me with excitement and I soaked up every moment he was in the ring. As a fan of Sameh blood, I was excited to see that both Justynn and the overall stallion Ch. trace to him in the sire line.

Hats off to the Pyramid Staff (as always!) and a big thank you to those at the AK booth for being to kind to me and letting me check out AKIII (I hope to get a copy of this fascinating book soon!).

As for leg scores, well, I was sitting in the back row most of the time, so I do not feel qualified to comment. I will say I thought it was strange to hear horses with leg scores of 16 and below also get 20s for movement. That just not mentally parse for me

I have just returned from the Event. Let me start by saying that I DO NOT judge conformation at all. I am not a breeder, do not plan to be one at any point. I will not even try to comment on that aspect.
I will give you my impressions.
It is HOT and HUMID in Kentucky. I am a Southern girl and should not be THAT affected by the heat and humidity but I was suffering. I can not even imagine what those who are from cooler drier places were going through. Human and Equine. Poor movement?? Deep footing ,and oppressive heat and tired horses. These horse have been there for a week with all the excitement , noise , etc that goes on a horse show and the heat and humidity.
Remember these are Egyptian horses , not bred for saddle seat and English type movement like you see at so many other shows.
What type of movement are you looking for ? High action or ground covering action, English horse, hunter, jumper, endurance, horse , working cow horse or trail horse?
Would all of the above have the same type of movement in the ring????

One owner commented to me that her stallion was stalled across from the bathing area . He had been beside himself over the wonderful smells of mare sweat all week. Hard for him to relax and have any energy left to show. I would think. How many of these horses are going to shows every week? Very few I think. I would expect the atmosphere there to take something out of them by the end of the week.
The horses I noticed were for the most part, happy and calm. They were NOT shaking in fear, terrified of their handlers like I have seen on live feed at MANY shows. These guys were calm and confident, doing their jobs and being rewarded for it, not punished for the slightest mis step. I saw many many "captured' chains, not loose chains, so popping them to bring them back down is not the same , to me, with a captured chain.
Yeah, there were some who were too high and some who were to low, just differences in personalities of horses I think.
I was impressed with the variety of bloodlines I was hearing called out from the winners circle. Not the same breeding over and over but a great variety from a variety of farms and programs AND HANDLERS. I did not see handlers being pinned at this show instead of horses! What a refreshing change
Just a note on handlers, MOST of these handlers had many many horses going in the ring all day a long , YOU try to keep up with these handlers/trainers for one day and see how tired YOU get and how well you are able to keep up with an excited Arabian haha!
There were many vendors there and lots of people walking around looking and watching from that area. I was not a vendor ,but did have my tack with me and talked a many many wonderful people about their horses etc. I was impressed the number of people and horses there.
Just a few of MY personal impression from the 2 1/2 days I was there.
Gina

I like Hansi's approach... it is fresh.

Hansi since I was not judging how can you know about any leg scores I might have given ?? I sat through every single class and saw every single horse because I was writing a report on the show; and yes I saw all the faults that you mentioned to a greater or lesser degree. I also saw some good horses particularly in the 10 and over mares. I was right in the front at the in gate so I had a very good view of everything—legs coming toward me and going away from me, horses standing in front of me so I could see their conformation. I only saw you looking from the top of the stands, which sometimes gives a distorted view, did you sit in the front at all ?

I have always been tough on legs since being taught in the British Pony Club and learning to judge there. But I have to say that I've seen excellent performance horses particularly race and endurance horses with some of those legs faults that have remained sound in spite of their faults. Since doing my photo pedigree albums, I have found photos of SEs back 50-80 years or more with the same faults—it's not new.

Dear Liz

What I was referring to where the scores you indicated over the forum here on certain legs, which I found far too high. We debated this. I even brought up a particular stallion exported into another country, who's front legs I did not like, yet you found nothing wrong with them, unless I misunderstaood you. Now this horse I happen to inspect at the Asil Club show in Germany quite thoroughly and stand firm on my opinion.

I am very far sighted and can see the conformation of a horse far further back than others. The horses judged often stand a long while at the end of the arena and during that long while I can examine them. These horses are turned from side to side, walk a bit here and there, etc.etc. And I do see their "Backs" some rather concave, i.e,. very soft from were I stood. Many times experts are next to me and we discuss the horse/horses and issue our opinions. Strangely enough, we always agreed with each other. And people in the grandstand a foot below me, also can see quite well I think.

The high scoring in my opinion does not help, it puts strange ideas into some heads, unless they know horses. Flattery does not get anybody anywhere I feel.

Good judging? Havent seen all classes but am truly confused having Gay Shafeen getting a ribbon lower than Botswana. There just is no comparrison in my eyes. One stands on sound legs, garnished multiple performance and halter championships, the other cant be ridden.I love and respect Allison, and I told her personaly what I saw time ago and she agreed. But I also said, if it does not breed on, then nothing to worry, as it could have happened in an accident, which I dont know.

Of course we all see things sometimes differently, but to me a horse with detrimental leg faults simply is not a good horse, as its functioability is highly in question. Such horse can bring more heartaches and veterinarian bills than one can imagine.

No hard feelings
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms.

However, Botswana is producing some very nice youngsters under saddle as well as Halter—I've seen several of them being ridden, they are very impressive and they also have lovely temperaments.

What needs to be addressed is that so many people don't know how to judge legs. I sat with some small breeders at the ringside discussing leg faults and it was surprising what they did not know. The impression they have of 'straight legs' is straight all the way down without thinking about the angles of the pasterns or that knees should be large and flat, or that the forearm should be twice as long as the cannons. Many of the horses I saw were tied in at the elbows and therefore could not move their shoulders for the freedom required, nor could they flex the hocks properly to engage under themselves.

I've heard trainers tell their clients that legs don't matter because so many judges don't look at them. Well, with the new AHA scoring system they are going to have to look in order to score. I'm going to our Regionals this week to see how the scoring goes !!

Dear Liz

I recommend this " LETS GET RID OF THE TRAINERS!!!!!!

when trainers start dictating, are the boss and get paid for it, all sanity stops. Yes I know of a few good ones, but seldom are they mentioned.
Never could understand why the EE brings in foreign judges when we have here many oldtimers who could and would do better. Also could never understand to bring in foreign handlers, when we have here equal or better in whatever they are doing, including insulting plastics on the end of their long whips.

Why cant we stop impressing? What are we achieving? It is the ignorant owner (ignorant means has not much knowledge) who might think it is wonderful and they feel assured for proper judging. I have seen some of the worsed judging by foreign judges in my time. Why cant that money be used to help the members struggling? Have they ever asked Pete Cameroan, Stan White,SR, Sheila Varian, Gene Reichard? these are oltimer experts which cant be fooled and wont play politics. there are numerous others out there in the USa and canada who would do an excellent job. But this might threaten some who do play politics, eh.

Take care
hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Hansi, about 12 years ago I heard Gene Reichard giving a lecture at the Event on conformation. He said that long cannons were recommended for the height and reach in an English Pleasure horse !!!! I remember that Princess Alia was also there and heard it. I was shocked, I've never forgotten that statement.

Hansi, something like 8-10 years ago, I attended a judging seminar at the EE. A foreign judge was explaining the European system. On legs, he was not much impressed with what he was seeing. However, he stated that in Europe, you would have to have 3 legs to score under a 13 in legs. We always hope for uniform judging and quality judges. What we sometimes see are horses that score high in head or type with poor legs and the judges don't want to embarrass the owner or handler with a poor but realistic score, so the score goes higher. This negates the Euro system. The American system is more like the Olympics where the judge's favorite is scored higher all over. A blend of these systems is unfortunate.

Now, I did see Boggs score 6,8,and 9's (out of 20) on legs and movement to some "thee" horses at one Event. The judges were told the following year not to embarrass the owner/handlers in that manner. Now the excitement of a newby showing their own horses at the Event after paying big money for horse(s), breedings, and training certainly could be dimmed by a bad score no matter how justified. But we don't breed for excirement, money, or pride. At least we shouldn't. We breed to better the breed and the rest will come naturally.

No Pete, we breed for our own excitement and enjoyment and therefore the Event is seen as a reward for the breeders. They want to have it nice and enjoyable and not "honest". That's how I understand it.

<<It is HOT and HUMID in Kentucky. I am a Southern girl and should not be THAT affected by the heat and humidity but I was suffering. I can not even imagine what those who are from cooler drier places were going through. Human and Equine. Poor movement?? Deep footing ,and oppressive heat and tired horses. These horse have been there for a week with all the excitement , noise , etc that goes on a horse show and the heat and humidity.
Remember these are Egyptian horses , not bred for saddle seat and English type movement like you see at so many other shows. >>

Yes, Gina, it was hot, sticky and downright miserable for much of the time. While my horse was indeed tired and it probably did affect her performance, I have no one to blame but myself for not having her more fit.

A word on the footing. I don't know what people mean by this. I found the ring to be very nice. I thought the footing for performance was fine. I've been in much worse rings. This is a HUGE ring. My husband scolded me for using the rail too much. He told me that I had probably ridden one third longer than the rest of the horses who came off the rail and didn't go deep into the corners. He did have a point. Alas, I'm a victim of all the years of instruction by ASB trainers.

Horse shows are tiring, noisy and very exciting places to be. Often our "nerves" go right through the reins or our leads to the horses we're handling. It's not particularly surprising that they pick up on the excitement, both from their handlers and from the audience. Your point is well taken. The heat, humidity, general chaotic atmosphere and all the other distractions of showing horses certainly played a role in many of the performances we saw. Certainly when my horse entered the ring the first time, it was like "country girl come to the city." While I've shown her extensively, it hasn't been at this kind of show. She will stand for musket and canon fire but when she heard the cheers and realized there were people "above" her, I had a number of issues to resolve very quickly.

One more note on this discussion, many of the conversations we had with people involved the desire to see more of the Egyptian horses under saddle. I believe that this can come to pass, especially with the Sport Horse divisions which don't seem to encourage the "extremes" that we see in main ring performance classes. Sport Horse has given us a place to go. In response to this, I've begun jumping Summer over fences. We're up to 2 feet and hope to transfer this to sidesaddle. We are jumping in the sidesaddle, but not yet to 2 feet. The lack of talent doesn't lie with the horse...

After a 19 year absence from the Arabian ring, please know that our visit to the Event was a joy and we fully intend to be back next year.

Mary Weeks

Having just returned from the entire week of the Egyptian Event ... Sunday to Sunday ... and after treating my mares and stallion to a wonderful bath Sunday evening from Mom because I always miss being away from them ... I am rested enough to share my opinions regarding the 2008 show. I watched all but a handful of the classes ... as my riddled program can attest ... sitting in a variety of boxes from each side of the arena ... all of a sudden it was Saturday evening!

Preferring to concentrate on the positives and the improvements ... this show was a fabulous Event! The schedule began Sunday afternoon with an Amateur Halter Handling Clinic with Robin Hopkinson and Mike Neal ... tons of lessons for the amateur to learn. Monday morning the seminar "Population Genetics in Arabian Breeding with Dr. Dennis Banks Ph.D., Michigan State ... proved to be an invaluable seminar with thought provolking messages for small and large breeders ... this could have been a weekend in itself for me personally. The seminar held Wednesday morning, Advances in Equine Reproduction, with Whit Byers, Select Breeders Southwest, was extremelly well attended ... all of us wished we had 2 days for this to go on and on. And, there were many other seminars ... The Working Egyptian Arabian Series: Western and English Equitation, Endurance- The Tevis Experience, "Don't Judge a Book by its Cover-Collecting and Enjoying Some Good Ones with Joe Ferris, Legacy Mares: Moniet El Nefous withCynthia Culbertson, and "The Babolna Stud of Hungary and its Influence on Straight Egyptian Breeders in the U.S. and Worldwide with Tzviah Idan. These seminars were rich with information and welcomed by all who attended.

The 2nd Annual National Breeder's Conference will be held September 5-7, 2008 at Highlander Ranch - Bentwood Farms - in Waco, Texas. Topics of discussion will be Hereditary Conformational Indicators in Arabian Breeding, Pedigree, Phenotype, Performance - What Constitutes a Quality Horse?, Principles of Conformation Analysis, Assessing Conformational Quality I, Assessing Conformational Quality II, Arabian Conformation Form-Function Analysis/ Assessment, Assessing Conformational Quality: The Arabian in Motion, Arabian Type: Reality vs. Romance, and Hereditary Conformational Indicators in Arabian Breeding ... breeders whether large or small can all benefit from the Pyramid Society providing these venues of learning. My hat is totally off to Kent Mayfield who has worked his tail off to provide the slate of seminars to everyone. Way to go Kent!!

Back to the 2008 Egyptian Event ... my personal opinions and observations was this was a week of wonderful excitement, seeing great friends and sharing our own personal excitements in our breeding programs, great improvement in handling/training techniques with the horses shown, greater numbers of horses presented with little "makeup" and natural clipping technique, allowing the horses to move more naturally on longer lead lines, improvement in single presentation of each horse in the Futurity and EBC classes, learning from our European handlers' presentations and actually "playing" with the horses shown in the ring, personally didn't see any signs of gingering, consistent tough leg scoring from our panel of judges, small breeders showing their own horses and receiving success ... the positives just go on and on.

There were many success stories that truly touched my heart ... amateur classes were deep in entries, vast improvement in both colts and filly classes (especially the colts), the World Class Mares - 10 Years and Older class actually brought me to tears as Shahara El Masr (sold to Egypt by the profound breeder Judy Guess)took a class filled with beauty that would challenge any show in the world, Grace of Sinan winning over and over in each class she was entered after being found by Liz Salmon for new breeders just starting in Egyptians, Susan Robertson's beautiful Lyric capturing Most Classic Head Female, watching Steve Diamond present the beautiful Ibn Morafic son Amiin+//, seeing Naadirah KA - a "to die for" filly bred by Kehilan win, seeing all of the outstandingly beautiful Imperial Mistaar babies owned by Eastern Star and Etaya, watching Aga Gamann, an 8 year old stallion being ridden bareback in the Parade of Stallions by a young girl, seeing 3 generations of El Halimaar/RDM Maar Hala progeny in the Produce of Sire class, seeing Center Stage show our lost friend, Becky Liberman's beautiful mare, seeing Shy Gafeen in motion knowing you were watching history in the making ... the memories just go on and on.

The time spent freely by the members of The Pyramid Society can not be measured. It is a gift folks. Yes, there will always be room for improvement but if you open your eyes and fill your heart with a week of your time and just get to the Event ... you will be richly rewarded. There is no way I can recount every thought and memory in one sitting this morning. I know I am leaving countless folks and memories off and in no way am I intending to do so ... but if we concentrate on just the negatives and refuse to acknowledge the positives ... how will that effect our own individual hopes as we move forward in generations to come?

Kind regards,
Susan Gilbert
Sumerlan Egyptian Arabians

Great post Susan. Of course there is room for much greater improvement in all directions, of course we need more education for new and existing breeders, but will constant bashing of the horses, the Event, judges, and the PS achieve much or will it put more people off owning and breeding good SEs ? I wonder ? Gloom and doom frightens people IMO.

I've always been a positive thinking person, seeing that glass half full. I love the breed and I love to teach. Anyone was welcome to come and sit with me at the EE or any other show and NO I do not charge as I have been accused of, I really love to do it. I have found so many new breeders really wanting to learn more.

Liz:

For me personally, my enthusiasm is unbridled. Each experience is a learning process .. the more I attend and see .. the more I learn. It is up to the individual viewing whether to be positive or not .. I choose to be positive. This past year and this year I have taken the time to travel to different farms and conferences in the U.S. in order to learn more. As a young breeder of 11+ years, I believe it to be an imperative process. It is easy to cry Chicken Little ... the Sky is Falling. Hopefully, for Chicken Little's sake he/she eventually learned to check the Weather Channel before he/she went outside ...

I, for one, am grateful to each of the farms who hold Open Houses, Conferences/ Seminars to the public, who continuously strive to provide education to breeders large and small. My passion as a breeder is my addiction in this life. I simply refuse to concentrate on negatives ... I prefer to concentrate on the positives. I have found that one can accomplish this with attitude.

Hope is the kiss of tomorrow's future ... the entire week at the Egyptian Event was time well spent.

Susan
Sumerlan

Dear Liz

Thank you for your enlightening post, which makes me sick to realize its contents.
this is exactly the problem which brought us to our knees. If judges can not truthfully judge what they see and recognize, than why do we have them at all??
their cards should be pulled!

Why should a judge be concerned if the owner gets embarresed? Why does the owner not know what they present for judging? Why are we using these horrible excuses to lullyby into false believes and learning?

why does not anybody understand that halter classes are "Breeding classes" and not "Model" classes which have their own rules? Why are we leading with false information by judges people into further disaster? What knowledgable horseman/woman will buy or breed from such overevaluated horses? Why are $ 40,000 price trags put on a $ 4,000 horses, often based on this unbeliable judging?

People who want to ride, even compete in it, want a functional horse. Training costs a fortune and is wasted if the horse does not have it. I think one would be better off to employ some good race horse trainers, they for sure can point out instantly what is good and what will fail.

I am suprised over what Gene Reichard said. I need to ask him for a further explanation. He showed many of the Martin Loeber ( Plumgrove farms) horses to high success, at halter and under saddle and they for sure did not have long cannons etc, because I happen to know them.
Martin Loeber was an ardent horseman and literally died in the saddle at high age.

People pointing out the older mare classes etc, which I did not see, they enjoyed. Of course they would, because these "oldies" are still "Intact"!!!! BY AND LARGE.
And so are numerous older stallions, espcially those 20years and up.

this pussy footing, this day dreaming and make believe simply does not belong in the breeding shed. How come the master breeders of other nations, the French, Russians, Poles,spaniards continue breeding excellent Arabians people readily buy for huge prices?
If have seen some of the finest specimen in the UAE and other places.
But I also have seen hundreds of super desert breds in Syria, and that should be a guideline to get back to reality.

We ruined the canine breed, feline breed and on and on, for what and why?
We detroy what breeders of centuries ago preserved and handed over for us to continue and take care of. And what are we doing? We leave the reins in the hands of incompetent often wealthy breederst and ficle judges and snob nosed trainers and promote such with bandwaggon adiction..

I guess this is why these horses are not under saddle because they cant do it, or?
And what I have seen at the EE of the young stock concerns me deeply. I can not be influenced by super conditioning, heads and good presentation, all that does not make a good horse.

the internatioanal competition is taugh, presented by the nations I mentioned above. They simply would blow what I saw out of the ring.

PLease believe me I am sad to make these drastic statements, am myself an SE breeder for over 40 years and suffer just like many others of the stigma, the latter not to be placed on excellent SEs I have seen with our smaller breeders, who are NOT in a financial position to show and promote. Some of them could bring their horses in pasture condition into the ring and it would be like day and night, I assure you. These breeders sacrifice, eat pork and beans so to speak just so their horses are well cared for.

I have photos of broodmares evaluated at $ 20.000 and up with such crooked legs its pathatic. I would not pay $ 1000.- for them as they are a liability not an asset, nor would any expert horseman/woman.

No matter how much my statement hurt, it hurts more to continue breeding these
strange type of equine which can not be marketed properly or used for anything, other than to look at.

therefore dear Liz, if I am so wrong or so out of place, than let us see these horses in performance and then judge. By this I mean that it is not judging who wins the class, but what these horses present in performing. I saw some nice ones in the hunter pleasure class.

Take care
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Maybe what we need is 2 seperate classes. a "halter" class as we do now. and "breeders class" for anyone who has the nerve to enter, and in the latter class, the judges will be painfully truthful?
id even sponser such a class!
Seperate the lawn fixtures from the breeding horses and lets see who has the horses to step up to the plate,??

To answer the question of this thread, from what i saw on live feed,i thought the EE as a whole,, was much better than in years past, ie: hard stand up. shanking, make up, scared horses. and i loved seeing the children showing, it wasnt all perfect, but this year was a start, lots of better things than worse, we have to crawl before we walk, and this year looked like many people were trying harder to correct things, even the BNT,s tried harder.

Hi Susan:

Just a small correction. Actually it was Imperial Shehaabah, by Imperial Shehaab, who won the Most Classic Head Female.

Cheers,

Bev.

DEar Mike

I have to agree with you, the presentation was definitely better than many years before. And this is wonderful

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Mike,

Wonderful suggestion and I would help sponsor such a class or classes and yes we need to have this type of a change in our showing system. Model classes and breeding classes are worlds apart. I know lots of small breeders producing exceptional horses that would stand up in these classes...

Yes let's see who has the horses for classes like these

We have Most Classic Head classes where they blanket (looks really silly if you aks me) the horses and only the head is judged Why not have classes where the most outstanding conformation wins... gee, kinda novel wouldn't you say

Judi

Liz(S)

Now why would you mix up honest critic with bashing? I havent seen you sticking your neck out once. Only when someone says either very good or very bad things about a horse you agree.

By whitewashing, are you trying to have those horses being marketed into
ignorant hands? What evaluation would you put on them, or most of them? Can you recommend most all of them as horses one should buy? Do you see a difference between a functional horse and one which should be a pet because it is useless for anythingelse?

Too many of our people have been led down the golden path only to find out they were misinformed. You speak of eduction, will such at least be straight forward without a flowery effect? Where I come from it is black and white and not the colour grey.that's how we were taught.

No hard feelings
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Bev:

Oops!!! So sorry about that ... my brain must have fizzled out this morning! Congratulations again to Imperial Shehaabah by Imperial Shehaab for Most Classic Head Female ... and I would like to add my congratulations once more to Norman Davis and David Geckle as well. This young mare knocked my socks off when I first viewed her at Imperial and she is still giving her owners goosebumps every day!

Susan
Sumerlan

This will be absolutely my last post on SE.com.

For all of you sitting in your nice air conditioned homes watching the EE on "youtube" and happily bashing away the quality of the show, the horses, etc.,
let me invite YOU next year to help plan the program, set up center ring, schedule the wonderful seminars, trailer horses in, set up stalls, plan barn parties, etc.

It might be enlightening for all of you...especially yesterday (Sunday), at 100 degrees F, to help take down the decorations in center ring...

I am thoroughly disgusted by this thread....and the quality of people posting on SE.com nowadays.

Allison of Talaria

Allison,
with all due respect, i actually said things were better this year than Ive seen in years, lots better, no bashing on my part, i even thought the big farms and the BNT trainers did alot better to show relaxed and less shanked horses, We still have things to improve, but overall, this was a big step in the right direction.
yes, i was sitting here in A/C watching. but ive been there in years past and thats why i say in all honesty, things were much better,,,
i dont think its ever gonna be perfect for everyone, but as a trainer, what i saw was wonderful, i ask you, dont quit on us now, you have the ability and where with all, that many uf us dont have to help keep this change going,

Mike
Heirloom Arabian Stud

Hansi:

First and foremost, please know that I was taught to always respect another's opinions and you are no exception to the diplomatic foundation I strive to adhere to in my life. I have come to recognize that you are a strong supporter for the young breeders or smaller breeders in this industry rallying around training our horses. I totally respect this. There is no need to publically call someone out in the manners or lack of manners with which you use to express your opinions. To this end, Liz Salmon "sticks her neck out" every week for the small breeders in our country. She is constantly teaching others (for free!!!) and trying to help people from all walks of life ... rich or financially challenged ... within the industry.

Let me share a story with you. Liz was contacted by a breeder looking for a quality mare with which to begin a breeding program. She had evaluated a young mare as a yearling. Her name is Grace of Sinan. This young mare was not treated kindly in her condition but Liz knew her value and what she could be ... so, she told the young breeder about the mare. The breeder listened to Liz and purchased the young mare totally trusting Liz' opinion. At the Egyptian Event this year, Grace of Sinan placed 2nd in the deep class of Halter Mares - 3 Years and Older, AATH!! She then went on to place 2nd in Extended Specialty Straight Egyptian Mares - 3 Year Olds AND WON the World Class Mares - 3 Year Old Class (memory tells me she had 3 or 4 scores of 20).

Liz sat ringside at the Event every day during the classes observing each individual horse ... dedicated. Not viewing from behind a booth at the ends of the arena. Honestly Hansi ... you just make me shake my head in complete disbelief that you have the audacity to call down anyone in the mannerisms you use. Diplomacy is an art and I know we have had discussions on this forum about your language barrier(s) ... but geez!!! Continuous negativity (or bashing I believe was the word used) teaches negative reactions. On the other hand, if we are all just a little more positive and diplomatic in our approach about the good or positive things that are changing (we must walk first) the outcome would be hope to change the future for the betterment of the breed. Flowers are always prettier than thorns!!

Susan
Sumerlan

I agree with Allison. The negativity is plainly insulting. As a member of a farm that competed with 24 client owned S.E. arabians, and worked our dear fannies off to prepare and be competitive with this group, the comments expressed here left me ill.

It makes a mockary of not only our efforts, but the efforts of each and every breeder that put their blood, sweat, and tears into breeding, raising, and training these horses for this beloved show. (and you all wonder why people stop coming to these shows!!!)

I want to congratulate each and every horse and owner that had the courage to put their horses out there to be judged. I commend your effort.

It is with a passion that we will return in 2009.

DearAllison

Have you really read the posts? Nobody complaint about the set-up the hard work it goes in to set it up in the fist place and tear it down, but one division talked strictly about the quality of the horses. Talked about how it has digenarted with some of the most horrible conformation faults ever. Nobody complaint about the presentation of conditionin of the horses either, the opposite, including me.

Now if you feel that the promotion and improvement of the SEs are based on an athomosphere, how well they are presentend, conditionied or the tremendous work and effort went in to set up the show, I have to totally disagree. why dont we then just show cattle?

If we want to take our show into a competition show ring to get judged for it, so lets start one. This show was not a charity show, it was in most ways to market horses with the exception of some who enjoy just showing, no matter what, and their horses are not for sale.

If you feel that this is your last post, so be it. remember, men and women stand and rabbits run. Nobody breeds a perfect horse, nobody has one either.
But at the end it is based of what a horse is tested for, such made known and its production and what they will do after testing. you are testing your horses as you stated. and I have seen some under saddle last year at the EE. so please dont wear hoes which dont fit you.

I cant believe reading your post. you have always been honest and fair and for the improvement of the horses.

I have lost ribbons I should have won, and I won some I should not. the latter made me feel very, very bad and I actually went to apologyze.

But one thing Allison I did not do, never will, is give up or in.! Cowards do that. And you are not a coward.

Have a grand evening and take care
hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

.

We should all be proactive. People want to learn from you, Hansi. Show them what you know. The more people that you educate, the less ignorance that will be out there.

I have shared,very willingly,my knowledge on clipping and grooming and training a halter horse. Answered any questions that were asked, whether on the thread or by PM or email.

The EE has always been a special time for me. That has been my soul vacation spot for almost 20 years. It angers me, to have people judging from a live feed. You cannot tell the atmosphere and the great comaraderie and the passion and the friendship and the great energy.
I watched on live feed and felt a little homesick.
Cheryl

Dear Sumerland

I fully understand your reaction. Now let me tell you another story.
al Khamsa has no members, only supporters. We all got together and donated what we could to make that AK convention possibly last year.AK is not rich.

Liz Salmon charged us all her expenses to give a lecture in Sportshorse on Hand
dizipline. this lecture was totally promoting herself and her daughter and most all people were deeply disappointed and sad over this, when an unrelated person could have been shown on the video instead, like one of our AK people... Upon arrival she left to other places to make money, instead of staying with the convention and lending a helping hand or at least seeing all the horses our people brought from distances away. I guess they werent good enough to be looked at eh.Well they were excellent by and large. the Metzes, The Cruz's were there and did their part, in such delightful manner.

another time, Liz evaluated an 8month old vetus in a $ 20,000 appraised mare by a real good stallion with $ 475.- an mount not enough to board a horse for a months. I have a copy of such evaluation. A small hard working breeder, very knowledgable horse person and highly respected in our industry was the victim.
the mare owner was a friend.

I appreciate and respect many things Liz does, but the main basics are "Money",
and self promotion or for her lovely daughter. while we all have to make a living
so should Liz, but I dont think we should be used when we had no defence.

Now there are others of us out there who for decades helped, supported,
donated and did all we could, FOR FREE, for the love of the horses and trying to sustain their lesser fortunate owners.

Now had you stated that that particular horse placing at the Ee would have done this in an open or all-arab show, it would have pleased me even more. Have you ever heard the saying among the blind the one-eye is a king?


do you really understand what I am driving at? The SE breeders time ago put the SEs on an international map because of their accomplishment in performance and halter against the best in the world. that's how they earned respect. there was no EE then, and only a handful SEs available to compete. Now why cant you all try this today if you feel you got the tiger by the tail? I pointed out the crucial faults in my earlier posts.did you read it, do you verify? Can you recognize them if you see it?

to prevent a disaster showing open or in All-Arab shows, our people need to know what they really have and what the competition is like. It seems the Europeans know this.For sure all other nations with master breeders among their midth.
I have seen super horses in Germany and at some of their shows.I would not underestimate them either.

so be fair and if you really care about the SEs and improvement, then join and try to help educate, to learn the SE, and not pussy foot around because of friends, favors received etc. or whatever. I have friends too, and critic there too, as they critic me. I appreciate this. this is why I respect them that much.

NOw, lets get away from this personal thing and lets concentrate on the real issue as to how we can improve, how we can breeding stallion show the public what they are like under saddle, how we get them to enter at least the next 25miller at the EE, etc.etc. May be you have one you like to try with. That would be great.
If I were younger and had horses left, I would have been in there, so would have Gleannloch, Plumgrove,Trapp, Kline, Babson,Baraka and others. It would have been an honor to compete against each other and we would have had a barrel of fun.

Diplomacy, well Sumerland, I never would make it at the UN or the WH, they fire me in a heartbeat. Mind you I first would try it, and then would turn on the screws.

Take care and no hard feelings
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Hansi:

Allison of Talaria has done more for breeders in this industry than anyone I know. Congratulations. Now you have a club of negativity that you chair and have made certain that you won't be asked to leave membership. Aleksi and Oliver, I have enjoyed your wonderful website in the past but the vicious, negative following and lack of diplomacy by certain individuals has now driven me away. It is not for lack of trying on my part to learn from people who are suppose to be my peers. It is the cynicism, constant back biting critique, and total lack of respect of others that never ends. Please remove me from your website. Rabbits run and women stand ... what a joke.

Susan
Sumerlan

Very well Susan, here it goes again.

this is addressed to Allison, my friend.

Can you Allison please expain the connection between Johanna Ulstrum, the handler and the red-haired corpulent judge? Is it true that Johanna leased a Botswana colt from you? Is it true that Johanna and this judge are good friends
and a possible conflict of interest could have occured? that could have explained Gay Shafeen getting a third ribbon, which still floors me, knowing both horses..

What I saw was that this judge mentioned above, only looked at the horses infront, that's all.

susan, I am sorry that you feel this way, so what can I say. I guess one can never discuss truth and issue opinions without you getting offended. too bad.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian farms

Dear Allison and Susan,

What about all of us on here who look forward to your posts?

Please do not leave the forum...

Carol

It is a sad day for the Egyptian Arabian and this forum in particular when Allison of Talaria is disgusted enough to stop posting here.
I can not think of ANYONE I admire more in the Arabian breed than Allison.
She has always treated me, a nobody from nowhere, as an equal in all ways. She has never said or done anything at all , to do anything but bring honor and glory to this great breed. I have seen her, totally worn out from the unbelievably long hours and pure STRESS, take time to stop and speak to visitors at her booth that were just vistors to the horse park, not even horse people, and treat them like long lost friends, when I KNEW she needed to be ringside watching her horses show or at the barn , taking care of the 40 Million details that goes into the backbreaking tasks she had been at for the past 2 long weeks.
I saw her sitting there, ringside with one of the BEST views in the whole arena, day after day, class after class, cheering not only her horses and horses from her farm but ALL the horses and handlers.
If you want to know what the horses looked like ask Allison, she was close enough to count the hairs on their chests. They also walked a straight line to the judges , directly away from her. Movement? Ask her she could SEE them move.
You know what, you won't get to ask her, because she won't be posting here anymore because of the 'arm chair quarterbacks' that have been so critical of an event that MOST of them were not even at.
She and many others are tired of putting thier heart and soul and yes even hard earned $$ into THE show of the year for Egyptian Arabians in the US and having every clod of dirt picked apart and critiqued to death.
I don't blame her for not coming here any more and seeing this .
I hope you all are very proud of what you have accomplished here today.

Hansi,

All three judges placed Shy Gafeen third. Johanna did not show Botswana in the class, he was shown by Mike Wilson--and no judge knew he was to be shown at all as we did not enter him until the night before. Johanna has not leased a Botswana colt from us, but will show one for my husband in Europe this year. And, to my knowledge, Judge Van Wick is not a personal friend nor a client of Johanna's. She does know Ann Norden from Sweden personally, but Ann was an EBC judge, not a regular class judge, and did not judge Botswana's class.

How tasteless and cruel of you to suggest such improper arrangements between our handlers and the 2008 EE judges.

Allison

Dear allison

thank you. How can you feel my question was cruel? Would you rather have bad rumors continue? At least I have the courage to ask you openly and with it stop all nonense.

Cant anybody anymore take a dead on question? Does it always have to be bashing, or the likes. what is the matter with some.

Now you know that I respect you Allison, am your friend and would never want to hurt you.

therefore, take all this a bit stronger in consideration and than judge my move.
It was well meant.

Take care
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms

Susan and Allison,

In everyones profiles you will see this next to their name:

Add to contact list
Find member's posts
Find member's topics
Ignore User

I highly suggest that you both take advantage of this feature. This way, you will not see any posts from people that you do not chose to.
WE on the other hand can enjoy the posts from you.

When given enough rope, one is apt to hang themselves.
I constantly hear the "critiquing" of horses and have not yet heard of ONE solution to the education of breeding correct horses AND the education of people.
In fact, I have been ignored on the several occasions, when I suggested POLITELY that Hansi, holds a seminar.

It takes just a moment for simple courtesy.
Good words to live by. While I have not met Susan personally, at least not that I know of...............I have met Allison. She is one of THE most gracious people to be around.
Cheryl

I would also like to clarify one total inaccuracy as well. I did not charge Al Khamsa a full fee at all. I had been booked to evaluate horses for Lucille Wood and SHE not me asked Al Khamsa if they would like me to talk and share the airfare. Lucille's husband was in intensive care after falling down stairs and sustaining a very severe brain injury. We had to leave the presentation early for her to go to the hospital. I stayed outside in the car—it was some distance from the farm where the horses were being presented. I felt I had to support Lucille as they did not think her husband would make it—what would Hansi have done ? Not supported her in her distress ? No, it was not because the horses were not good enough for me to watch—quite the reverse. I love watching horses of any description at any time.

I think that some of us particularly Allison deserve an apology. I think I will take advantage of the ignore button too. Many of us have had enough.

Hansi,

Last post ... my personal opinion is that you are embittered in life. You crush more spirits than anyone I have ever known. I will no longer be a part of a forum of which you are a member. Shame, shame on you for taking refuge behind what you call a language barrier. You could teach so much quinching the hunger for knowledge that would teach breeders. Instead you choose to be embittered. Such a wasted gift of experience. My choice is NOT to select the ignore button on this forum. Keep that embitterment to yourself ... it has certainly brought you far with the respect of your peers.

Susan
Sumerlan

I have many things to say in regards to this topic.

First The Event itself is one of the highlights of my year, and one of the best shows I attend, the other being Vegas (and yes Hansi I do attend many "open" shows). I felt this year was one of the best I have attended (and I have attended almost every year since 1983). The horses seemed happier and more confident in the ring, the majority of handlers did a great job of letting the horses be expressive and show without intimidation and the family atmosphere and friendship is unlike any other show.

I thought the judges were fair and honest and all international judges. Their did not seem to be any politics in the judging and I felt the horses were scored fairly regardless of who was handling them. I loved the individual format in the yearling and two year old futurities this year - it really allowed the horses to show their movement and attitude. The bagging was excessive in the first class, but the show committee quickly handled it to one given area with one assistant and it worked wonderfully. I personally think it is great that the PS allows for bagging in the holding area and in the far end of the ring - if the horses are taught properly it gives them an extra air and really lets their personalities shine through when they catch that "buzz" - nothing is more magnificent than an Arabian full of self confidence with its nostrils flared, tail flipped over its back and dancing on air and I saw several horses this week do just that - the Kehilan filly was one of the best - you could just see her self awareness that she is a gift from God.

For those of you who seeminly get great enjoyment from sitting at home with your horses in your barn or pastures judgeing those being presented so harshly - I challenge you to bring your horses next year. I have yet to see a perfect horse, every horse has some conformational flaw - some worse than others. Yes, their were some poorly conformed horses at this show, as their are at every show, BUT for the most part the quality of horses shown this year was exceptional!! And this was repeated many times by the judges (who again are some of the most respected international judges in the world, and who have seen horses on many continents). So for those of you who have those perfect horses at home who trot perfectly at your side and then give you a perfect center presenation every time - bring them and let them be judged. It is always so easy to sit back and tell eveyone how to do something, well then put yoIur money where your mouth is and do it - bring your horses to the show. I have shown my own horse their for several years and am lucky enough to have the opportunity to show some wonderful horses in the amateur classes - I will tell you that it is not easy to run in the deep, sandy footing and even harder with a horse moving out beside you. It does not matter how fit you are running in deep sand is hard, then add another large animal who can and often does bump in to you and the Kentucky heat and humidity and it is not so easy as watching from your air conditioned home on the computer.

I am already looking forward to the 2009 Event and I haven't even started unpacking or recovering from this years - it is a great show, with great horses and great people. Come see for yourselves next year instead of being armchair quarterbacks.

Amy Austin

Oh dear. The Egyptian Event was hot and hectic for those who were working during the show, and we come home exhausted - and I did very little to help this year, mostly just wilted in the heat watching horses, so I can only imagine how tired Allison is right now. Thank you, Allison, for being one of the most hardworking people in The Pyramid Society, you are one of the most talented, gracious people I have ever met.

Today I was talking to one of my very best friends, and we talk about EVERYTHING to do with Arabian horses and the people involved with them. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree, but somehow we manage to have differences of opinion about horses, judging and people without the ugliness that has found its' way onto the discussion here.

Allison and Susan, you are both people who have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and you are both two of the most generous, lovely people I have ever met. I can also feel sure that whenever you share your opinions, they are based on experience, knowledge and fact, never on gossip or uneducated hearsay. I hope that you both reconsider your choice to avoid SE.com, as I think that there are many people who read the forum who value your wisdom, experience, and opinion, and count on the fact when we read your comments it is something worth reading.

Anne-Louise

Very well said Amy and I have to say that you do a fantastic job of showing. This show and Las Vegas are the only two shows I really enjoy in the US apart from Sport Horse Nationals. I too think that this year was the best for many reasons and I've attended since 1994. I will be writing my usual report for The Arabian Magazine.

Anne-Louise I ditto your comments. The forum will not be the same without Allison and Susan. I do hope they reconsider.

Now for Hansi's nonsense


Allison is one of the best ambassadors the Egyptian Arabian has, and a very close personal friend. To see you disrespect her, her stallion, her trainer and her breeding program shows me only that you have allowed yourself to become a very bitter, sad woman. I remember how wonderful a person you were, how much I looked up to you for so many years. I will never forget meeting you in the early '80s at the Event when I was a very young girl and I sat next to you and learned from you, I remember writing and receiving many letters from you and hearing stories of *Khofo and your wonderful Black, spending time at your farm and hearing your wonderful knowledge of the early imports . Sadly it appears that wonderful woman has become lost in a world of bitterness and it breaks my heart as you have so much knowledge and so many wonderful stories you could have shared. Instead you have chosen to use venomous words and hurt good people. I feel very sad for you Hansi, as you have pushed so many people aside and said so many hurtful things, I know you were not always treated with the respect you deserved or given the credit you were due and it has taken its toll on you - I just wish you had learned how it important it is to support and encourage people as you teach them rather than cut them off at thier knees.


I have no idea where you ever heard that Botswana beat Shy Gafeen for anything other than his on merits. Johanna is an amazing, very professional horsewoman. She is one of the best trainers I have met and she has a deep, deep love for the horses. Every night of the Event, after classes she spent an hour or more sitting in Afrikhan Shah's stall, getting acquainted with him, observing him and and he with her. It was remarkable to watch the daily changes in his trust and interactions with her. She came to the States in March to help lead a seminar at Talaria, sponsered by Allison and her husband Curt, along with Shelia Varian on humane training methods for halter horses and spoke extensively on movement in hand and humane training methods. That you could even think, much less publicly state that Johanna, Allison or Judge Van Dyke did anything that was unethical is discusting and in very poor taste. As Allison stated Mike Wilson showed Botswana in his class and he was ahead of Shy Gafeen on all 3 cards. Botswana is a magnificent stallion who is very consistenly sireing wonderful foals. In my personal opinion he was the best horse in the class and should have won the class. No he is not ridden, as he suffered a fractured leg as a youngster, which required surgery and would make riding him not in his best interest. However, his babies are ridden and are doing very well in open shows and the Event with many regional champions in Hunter Pleasure, Western Pleasure and Western Side Saddle. Both Allison and Curt are very strong beleivers that all horses need jobs and must have careers after the halter ring. The Champion and Reserve Champion Western horses at the Event are both Botswana babies. He also had two hunter contenders and another western junior horse at the show, who with a little more age and training have very bright futures - so Hansi, while Botswana isn't ridden he is proving he sires athletic, solid foals who can and do move - just as their sire can. He received 19s from all judges for movement and he showed all in attendance that he has wonderful movement. I do not know why you have chosed to single Botswana out and attack him for beating Shy Gafeen but it is getting old. Of the top 3 stallions in the 10 and over class Botswana has by far proven himself the superior sire - and that is what matters most.


Amy Austin

Susan and Allison,

Don't leave!
All those negative opinions can be changed as soon as they see pictures.
Hansi wasn't even at the endurance race. There were some very pretty horses competing there, horses who could do it all.

The seminars were wonderful, and Susan, your questions sure made them even more interesting. I had the pleasure to spend hours talking with Tzviah Idan watching the Babolna videos, I was very lucky to have lunch with Joe and Sharon Ferris and many other wonderful enthusiatic people.

I thought that there were many very nice horses, many moved freely on long lines. I didn't watch many of the young ones as i was watching Salukis and a lot of other things but my impression was very good. especially with the mature horses. The human is often the impediment.

There were some very sweet stallions in there with not much make up at all. I can post pictures of wonderful moments in a few days.

As for the music being boring, I am amazed by that reflection. When I attended a show in Belgium a few years ago, it was horrible, so loud and so smoky I lost my voice for more than a week. A nightmare.

This week is a marathon, with so much happening, it will take days to recover. I can only imagine how hard it must be for those organizing or bringing horses.
The atmosphere was great and very friendly, and the attendence very high. Compared to A shows or Las Vegas, this show is my absolute favorite.

Christine

Anne Louise,

Well said.... That is what real friends are for - talking honestly without holding back anything... and having a stronger friendship because of it...

Carol

All of this is none of my business, and I probably have no business posting here, but I have to say this is all going way too extreme. I have also lost a lot of respect for those who feel the need to point out every little "flaw" that is perceived. What about noting and encouraging all the growth that makes a person want to get more involved? My rant here comes with no direct affiliation or direct link or business dealing, etc., with any particular group or person, either.

I have never been a member of the PS, but after what I have read and heard in part, I want to get more involved and get a membership. If by doing so, this means we are not "real horse people" anymore, so be it (and, we ride regularly and handle our horses, etc.)


Speaking an opinion is one thing, but down right getting nasty is another while demanding respect. I am tired of self-proclaimed teachers and experts, in general, which is a warning sign right in those statements! I don't care who you are, no one person knows everything - unless you consider yourself god.

Respect is distributed and if you want it, you better give it also. Although I consider myself a tolerant person, I have absolutely no patience or tolerance for anyone, and I don't care who they are, when they need to attack people - try to bully them or destroy them - and their horses for whatever lies in their agenda. I don't get angry very often, but boy, I will be the first to admit I am fuming right now.

Nit picking and going out of one's way to slam others with obvious hurtful intent really fuels me - it is not warranted and, especially, when it is not provoked! I do not even care to understand anymore what drives people to slam every horse or breeder out there. This certainly gets tiring but personally spurs me to want to jump into action.

Aliison - I have not met you personally, nor most of the posters here, but I can tell you that your Botswana made me gasp when I finally got to see him in the flesh. Albeit, he had an injury at that EE, but my jaw dropped as I admired him for everything he is and has to offer. He deserved to place the way he did, and he was in excellent company. What a great class that must have been and I wish I could have seen it!!!!!

I am so tired of people bringing it upon themselves to gossip about other breeding programs and their breeders - and am even more tired of those who believe the second hand information and bring it upon themselves to repeat it!!! Why can't people go see for themselves and judge for themselves? What has happened to etiquette and good sportmanship and supporting each other fully instead of speaking those words with a forked tongue?! I may sound harsh, but I do mean what I am saying.

I was unable to make it to the EE this year, and now wish I could have. It certainly is one thing to sit out and criticize others and another to go out and do it.

I am just shaking my head in disgust. We are our own worst enemies in this breed, which I have said before. I do not blame others one bit for not wanting to subject themselves to constant attacks and negativity - PEOPLE - enough is enough already!

Sheila Bautz

Susan and Allison,

I for one would be a tad lost if you two left the forum. For it is me, the small horse owner just starting out as a very very small breeder that look to your insightful, guidence. I have been involved many years on a very small scale, and am the next generation to hopefully do my very best to do what I can on a small scale for the wonderful SE.

Susan,

You have ALWAYS been so giving and helpful via emails when I have inquired to you and it has been greatly appreciated. You have always returned my emails with as much insight and graciousness. I hope that you and Allison do not leave the forum as there are so many that want to learn, as myself, that look to you as devoted breeders and your dedication is tireless and I admire you and thank you for taking time here to give freely. I greatly appreciate it.

My Best,

Billy W

WOW folks, I get all these lashes? Are some of you in a fighting mood or what?
Have you all joined in a fire ant nest? I cant believe what I am reading

I am embittered? Wow, now this really is too much and a joke. I am a very happy person but very unhappy when our beloved SEs are going backwards instead of forward hrough often total ignorance or greed..
should I have a right to my opinion, I think so, because I know the past of the SEs, a successfull past and fear that it might not come back again.

Anything wrong with asking a straight forward question as I did with Allison?
Her reply killed rumors, which obviously are out there, otherwise I would not have heard them. Instead of being grateful you all jump at me . Why does Allison have to be explained? those who know her dont need it, I am one of them. But I was shocked being called cruel and tactless and feel I should get an apology, when I meant her well.

Furthermore what is wrong with expressing my opinions, why should it bother you, when all of you can do the same and it does not bother me either. Why is it that important to some? Cant we agree to disagree instead?

Again and again I will repeat that there is a difference between the atmospere and the conformation of a horse. I feel that the scores were far to high, and that is my opinion. I never said the judging was bad. I only saw the young classes. why always jump to conclusions. Why always look for bad things, and obviously enjoying it, rather then discussing things intelligently and conclude.

Yes, to my sadness, I could not see the endurance horses, got quite ill and was in terrible pain and had to return immediately to home. Was that wrong too?

I have given you all everything I could, in advice, etc.etc. but if you all feel that this
is offensive, than I think I had better stop. I dont need this. It truly saddens me that receiving these personal attacks when in most cases I speak in general without mentioning names. But then they might come from fletchlings who still have to learn a lot.

Respect, study the definition, and then conclude. I can not respect falsification,
buttering things up and with it help degenerate the SE horses. How often have I given an opinion what to do and not to do.anybody ever listened? People still breeding from stallions they havent seen or stud owners never seen the mares?
Still breeding from untested highly promoted stallion and feeling they produce that super foal? Still thinking SEs should be looked at but not ridden? Well folks, the results are obvious. And if this is what you all like, good luck and so be it.

In the meantime it would be nice if we can see good things in what is said,
and not right away try to find misery. It also would be nice to ask"why did you conclude this way" before using an ax.

If I would not enjoy the EE, I would not go, but I go every year I can. Given my honest critic is my priviledge, as it is yours. so please stop all nonense and speak as good horse owners and breeders and have the courage to give your opinion, even if some are bandwaggon adicts. Utter your critic, rather then condeming mine or others. Or would you all rather like to hear nothing but lovydovies?
Everything is beautiful, all the horses are super ones, there is no politic, all judges and trainers are angels, nothing should be improved because it is so good is does not have to, all the SEs can win the Kentucky Derby or the likes, we are breeding the best horses in the world and all other countries look at us in envy.! Is this what you are looking for? If yes, count me out..

Now all take good care, have a good night sleep and do some tall thinking and may be some of you do feel they should apologyze. I am a very forgiving person.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms.

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