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flying hooves
I have been trying to get an answer to this question and I get no answer.

I know people have their preferences in bloodlines but I am curious.

I see the No Minstril adds and kind of understand that one, though a good horse is a good horse.

What is up with the No Babson thing? I have 2 SE mares with Babson several generations back and have had people say, "oh they have Babsob blood" WHY?

Trying to learn

Nadj al Nur
Lisa, you would have to ask the people who said that for the "why's " of that one, LOL. I think most people who breed SEs will tell you that Babson blood is not a bad thing at all and can certainly add a lot to a program, but as you say, it may be just a preference thing............
flying hooves

I have and receive no answer LOL

It is my understanding and experience, Babson blood adds performance!!

Nadj al Nur
Well, if you have asked these people what they mean, and have recieved no answer, then I would suggest that they don't HAVE an answer and you can pretty much take it from there. I would say, on the average that most Babson lines DO bring something to performance, and to temperment as well.
When I very first got into researching Arabians I somehow got the impression tha the Babsons were not very typey. However, I QUICKLY became a fan of these beautiful, correct, and "doing" horses! I believe my misprecetions were due to the fact that the very first photos of horses I saw labled as being Babson bred were from odd angles giving the horse an impression of a short neck and a plain head. I was soon cured of my misperception smile.gif
Dear Flying Hoofs

This response to Babson blood has been around for a long time. Years ago it was too much inbreeding, too little size ,and a lot of other things. Having visited the Babson farm while Homer Watson was still there and seeing their horses for myself I can assure that all the prejudice against these horses is unfounded.
Look at Prince Fa Moniet, the entire Falima line at Ansata, all the winners from Bentwod years ago with Babson blood. The US National Champion mare Fa Halima, and on and on.
I am not aware that Babson blood in a pedigree diminishes the value of the individual, but in any case, you can be assured it adds pigmentation, substance, movement, tail carriage, and TEMPERAMENT, as well as other positive attributes.
So your response to those asking why they have Babson blood could well be that it adds a lot of things you are seeking to a pedigree.

kay cochran
Dear Flying Hooves, There are Babson Arabs you couldn't give me and there are some I search for. It depends on what particular Babson bloodlines you are after. For example, Anchor Hill Amida by Al Metrabbi+ out of Serida was a class A halter champion that produced class A halter champions. Serida was a beautiful mare and did not produce the top heavy thick necks that seem to go with some Babsons. She produced beautiful heads with large eyes. Hannah was a beautiful mare with really nice neck, big bodied and beautiful exotic head with large eyes. Ahroufa,Roufah, Henrietta,and Bint Fada, all at one time owned by Jarrell McCracken were excellent mares and produced champions. Maar Jumana is another classic champion producer. Fa Daalim was an absolutely beautiful classic stallion. Study your pedigrees that represent the true classic Arab. The most important characteristic that I like about the Babson lines are the classic heads with the huge eyes, big bodies, and strong rear ends. There are good ones and bad ones just like any other bloodline. Think of the really excellent ones as the pick of the litter. Only breed from them. That is true of any bloodline. Not every single foal is going to be a champion. When you find a nick stay with it. Evidently you're dealing with uneducated ignorant people. Do your homework! Remember you can't argue with a well informed educated person who knows facts.
A single Babson horse revolutioned Arab breeding in the UK and opened the gates to Egyptian blood. He was British National Champion (beating El Shaklan) and won also at Paris: his offspring included top-class racing Arabs, endurance horses, top show horses and more - all with superb temperaments.

Personally, I'd rather have Babson blood than the excess of Nazeer you find everywhere now: my herd is all Babson-related, including a non-Egyptian line via Fadjur.

Babson horses are HORSEMENS' horses - perhaps that's the answer to why some folk don't understand their value?

Pete Hiatt
I am sure it is not the same people who dislike the Minstril/Desparado AND Babsons. The first line lacks movement and legs, etc but are fancy. The Babsons are just the opposite. I, personally, really like a leg to Babson and really admired the Ansata/Babson cross as some of the best horses around.

You breed your mares to what they need or want to double on. The Babson line has a lot to offer.

You can cure lack of knowledge, but you cannot cure stupidity.
flying hooves
Thank you all for your insite smile.gif

I couldn't imagine someone calling Serr Maariner a slouch laugh.gif

I have seen pics of the thick short necked plain looking babsons but I also don't recall that type being excluded from the early imports of other lines.

In a world where we are seeing less and less using SEs it makes you wonder.

I do agree with the fact that certain bloodlines have been tagged by the sample of their gene pool which is undesireable. Such as china dolls or plain thick performance superstars.

Imagine if you crossed the china doll with the plain powerhouse!!

flying hooves
I meant to post this picture I found in the pic section here. This is in no way an insult or anything negative.

Here is a mare, imported by Ansata. I wouldn't call her slender wink.gif
How about that in a pedigree?
Click to view attachment

This is my SBE mare, she has size, substance, good neck, very nice head, big black eyes, movement to die for and sweet temper...

I saw lots of SBE, some around 15.3h or more, some with fluid lines, some more rounded and muscular, some with a dish, some not etc etc...A large variety in this small group, you can find all kind of conformation but the first thing that ALL the babsons have is their incredible conformation and soundness, secondary the character!
They have all this sweet look in the eyes that is beyond words...

Click to view attachment
Dear Lisa

It would anger me too, chuck it up to total ignorance. some of the finest SEs and Asils carry Babson blood, are super horses, internationally honored and liked, wanted and imported and used in knowledgable breeding programs. We have "Babson Blood" through our AK shah Munifeh? anything wrong with him and his beauty, type,movement and production of many champions? I dont think so..

People sometimes say things in ignorance, copy others who also dont have a clue of what they are talking about, so please dont listen to them, and do what you are doing here, post and many will reply.

Take care and enjoy your Babson blood Arabian Horses
hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Nancy Bourque/Ibriz Arabians
There are good and bad things in all lines. When you go shopping at the produce counter you don't just grab anything you come to. You check it over and choose the best. This same principle should be applied to horses, whether it's Minstral or Babson or whatever other bloodlines people happen to be down on at the time.
I am relatively new to this forum,however,I feel compelled to share my observations re Babson stock in pedigrees(for better or worse). huh.gif
Before setting up my breeding program,I had done research on as many new & old SE lines re genotype and phenotype expressed.Naturally, my conclusions are limited without actually seeing the EAO and foundation stock they trace back to in the flesh,as they predate my existence.However,I have seen many of the products of this stock in the flesh,and pls correct me if I'm wrong, but nowadays Babson lines seem lately to me to be the most consistent lines producing straight legs,solid hip,etc. I can't argue that often they are not flashy as the new SE lines are today,but I have concluded they are as the gold standard in SE breeding that we can hopefully always go back to or outcross with to quite lierally straighten out legs,etc .
I was surprised and disappointed to see something akin to scorn which SE horses that trace back to Babson stock are often rec'd with in the ,"modern" SE community?What's up with that,I thought? My initial thought was that perhaps it was because they were so tightly bred,but after seeing how often people doubled,tripled,and more on TM blood up close in their pedigree's I realized this was'nt the case.
I have concluded that IMO in SOME cases,perhaps (but I hope not )the majority,this aversion to Babson blood back in bloodlines is most likely due to a common sociological phenomenon :A "FAD," and I don't mean Fadjur(!!)
Have we immersed ourselves in the pseudo glamour of the ,"new" lines at the expense of basic things (prevalent in Babson's) like a horse with straight legs,short back,balanced body that's a pleasure to ride? Where are we headed with the SE's? I am still new to arabian breeding,but am often a quick study and capable of seperating the wheat from the chaff.Well,I'm seeing lots of chaff(!)
I apologize for sounding cynical, but what is it about we as human beings will cause us to jump over the cliff genetically en masse like lemmings and arbritraily prune out some of the best stock we have to fall back on re CORRECT conformation? This goes much deeper than horse breeding,I'd say.I'm happy to say I did'nt make the leap,and apparently many others did'nt either... smile.gif
You can view a wide variety of contemporary horses with Babson blood in the pedigree (from 6% to 100%) at the site below. This URL has the preview of the color gallery of horses that will be in the book "The Babson Influence: A Retrospective" being published later this year by the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse.

There are more than 90 horses on these pages. Enjoy, and draw your own conclusions.

Thanx, Anitae.
I'll ck it out,sounds like an interesting publication,particularly if it shows what's descended from the Babson stock.I don't really have too much Babson,but I'd most definitely be interested in looking at it as perhaps a photo(?) record of these horses.
Marilyn Lang
The Babson blood has proven to be a valuable asset to many a straight Egyptian program time and time again. For instance, Ansata, Bentwood, Glorietta, Masada and for current straight Egyptian breeding programs, how about Karen Henwood and Silver Maple Farm? My experience with the Babson blood has been one of a very positive nature. The Babson blood consistantly produces great bodies with balance and nice soft curves, great legs with beautiful movement, huge dark eyes with no white around the eye, a disposition to die for and extreme tail carriage. And the bonus is the Babson horse passes this along for many a generation.

I do like a little more type than I think you find in many straight Babson programs today but think that happened because many of the straight Babsons with type were outcrossed until the blood was lost or so far back in a pedigree, did not help when you are breeding straight Babson. Regardless, I feel that it is imperative that straight Babsons continue to be appreciated, loved and bred so that the rest of straight Egyptian breeders have the blood to infuse into their programs. I love and cherish every ounce of Babson blood contained within my horses pedigrees. I do not have a horse in my program who does not have beautiful movement, flawless legs and lovely dispositions.

Kay, thank you so much for mentioning Fa Daalim in your list of those horses with Babson blood who represent the classic Arabian horse. He was 7/8 Babson and 1/8 new Egyptian through his dam the *Ansata Ibn Halima daughter, Bint Fa Dena. I will post a photo of Fa Daalim in a seperate email along with one of his daughters I have retained in my breeding program. He was the love of my life and has kept my passion burning after all these many years. When I first saw him as a weanling, I immediately fell in love with this very different colt in a herd of some six *Ansata Ibn Halima sons. Did not matter to me about him not being an *Anasta Ibn Halima son as I did not have the good sense to know how important that would be in the future. I only knew that he had the look that I wanted in my program. The rest is history as they say. Funny, as it was the first major decison I ever made about a breeding program. Maybe fate or destiny but I truly loved that horse like no other.

To the origianl poster of this thread, do not let others influence you in your dreams. You will find just as many breeders who appreciate the Babson blood as you will find those who do not. Many of the straight Egyptian horses being purchased today by farms all over the world have some if not a lot Babson breeding. We need these bloodlines as we do many others for diversity within the pedigrees for future Egyptian breeders.

Marilyn Lang
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Photo of Fa Daalim (7/8 Babson and 1/8 new Egyptian through *Ansata Ibn Halima and his daughter, FA Aanisah who also contains a majority of Babson blood.
Marilyn Lang
Sorry, the photo on the left is Aanisah and the photo on the right is Fa Daalim.

Dear IsisArbians.
when we started in 1967 there was no such definition of old or new. It was Jim Kline who years later defined these for himself and before we all knew it others copied the fraze.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Marilyn Lang
My opinion is that there is truly no difference between the old and the new Egyptian Arabian horse. They all go back to the same ancestors within the pedigree. Some through different blood sources is the only difference. As long as they qualify as straight Egytian by the PS, they meet my qualification for SE.

For myself,and a few SE & AK breeders here in New England(at least one other than myself),one may say that the ,"new",lines vs ,"old" ,lines pertains figuratively to breeding philosophy that has to do with prioities as a breeder than actual literal bloodline interpretation.
Many things in life are by default characterized chronologically.,IMO..

Feel free to put your name on the posts - then I don't need to type in so much stuff. On that subject, I really appreciate the folks who make entries in their profiles for this forum. (Isis, your website link is broken sad.gif ) Might as well admit it - people are quite judgemental when it comes to sources of information.

Anyway - some interesting thoughts you've put forward and thank you for sharing your conclusions, thoughts, opinions and questions with regard to Babson blood.

Look forward to hearing more from you and seeing that website, once it's fixed!

Ray biggrin.gif
BABSON blood is Great!!!!
We have it in all of our horses!!


I would hardly think that having a horse with Babson ancestors could be considered a "bad thing", especially considering that these horses often are superb performers and have unmatched dispositions.

Click here to see Serr Maariner

He won the highest honors in dressage that an Arabian horse could win. He was beautiful and correct and a perfect gentleman. How could this be bad?

Dear Lisa,

Sorry but my previous post with a link did not work. I

If you go to Pedigrees listed at the top of the main page here and then insert
Serr Maariner in the window, you'll see his photo. There are many, many outstanding Babson horses. My own beloved mare traces to the great Babson matriarch, Maar-Ree.

Do some research and judge for yourself. Why not start here:

flying hooves
Thank you Susan

Serr Maariner is actually who made me fall head over heels for Arabians. I met him when I was young. I have a grandson of his.

I am not the one with the problem, I have done my research and love my babson blooded horses as well as ALL my SEs.

Like so many of the people on this forum I come from a riding background, so performance is key to me. I love to look at a beautiful poster of an Arabian but always picture me on his/her back. Some I am afraid would break in 2 if I got on laugh.gif

Thank you for that link, it is one I had not seen before.

My quiery was one of education due to crazy buyers looking for "non-Babson" horses.

Marilyn, thank you for your wonderful words and your encouragement. Hansi, thank you as well for your encouragement.

Anyone I missed, thank you too smile.gif It is nice to actually learn something on here instead of mucking through all the bickering to find anything worth reading cool.gif
Stephan Eberhardt
Many popular stallions today have Babson blood, like Al Lahab, Ansata Nile Echo, Simeon Shai and Safeen.

Best regards
I think there is a difference between horses who are entirely old egytian and entirely new egyptian. There is a difference in Nazeer bred horses and non Nazeer breed horses in terms of how they look.

I couldn't guess why anyone would say what they did Lisa, and why they would or would not have a desire for Babson blood, other than to say maybe they already have it and are looking for something different. It could be as innocent as that or maybe they have horses who have no babson and want to keep them that way,
On this subject I would like to share a conversation I had at the start of the 2008 Egyptian Event. I was approached on the Monday by someone who felt compelled to inform me of the following, "Babson blood does not have any relevance in todays breeding programs."

I do not know the person who made the comment nor do I understand why they felt it was necessary to share their position on this subject with me. It was simply stated as fact and they were not interested in hearing any counter points.

I cannot understand why the decadents of the Babson herd would ever been dismissed so out of hand. As others have stated so well in this thread most of the great breeding horses & programs are founded on horses with a percent of Babson blood.

We have the honor, and that is what I consider it to own on the last SE daughters of Serr Maariner (there were only 7 in total), Abitibi Fleur. She along with her half sister (xImperial Madheen) are both tail female Babson and are the foundation of the Etaya breeding program.

We are extremely proud of the Babson influence within our herd. We consider this blood to be so important that the majority of the outside stallions we have selected are also tail female to Babson lines.

So to are they relevant today? My answer is YES.

Pictured below & photographed today - Abitibi Fleur & June 08 colt by Imperial Mistaar. Fleur is 22 year young. Fleur's daughter, Etaya Shai Zahra & 07 filly
and Fleur's granddaughter, Etaya Sudan Zahra also by Imperial Mistaar. She won the 2008 Egyptian Event Junior Filly Futurity Championship with three 20's for type & three 20's for head. Seems pretty relevant to me. biggrin.gif

Best to all,

Jennifer Parsons

I added S. Vesty's 2007 photo of Abitibi Fleur as this shows her true colour.
Allison of Talaria

I couldn't agree more. I love to see Babson blood in a pedigree!

And, your 2007 Class Champion Filly is gorgeous and, as you so rightly point out, absolute proof of not just the relevance, but also the beautiful legacy, of Babson blood in today's straight Egyptian Arabian!

Allison of Talaria
HI Etaya,
Stunning photos and they prove your point and support for the Babson blood beyond any reasonable doubt! I knew Serr Maariner and saw him several times, one of the most exciting times was at the Egyptian Event when Major Carmona exhibited him in long lines! He was so outstanding that the next year the show commission must have decided it was an unfair advantage to show in this style and so they banned it from the competition.
I know of a Serr Maariner daughter and granddaughter that are going begging on the West coast, they could be jewels in someones broodmare band should anyone have the foresight and wisdom to know how to use them in a breeding program. One can see from Etaya's success just how much they can "bring to the party"!
Treasure is out there folks, one just must recognize it.
Pam Studebaker
Hi Jennifer:

Thank you so much for posting the picture of Abitibi Fleur. You made my day, to see her again!!! And her family!!!

We have the honor, and that is what I consider it to own on the last SE daughters of Serr Maariner (there were only 7 in total), Abitibi Fleur.

I used to see her alot, as I told you previously and I really thought she was something, even though she walked away, every time I wanted to touch her. She has such a personality, as I would try to look over my shoulder without her knowing that I was looking and she would have that shocked look, "hey, wait a minute, I changed my mind, come back here!" It was a wonderful experience to walk out into Gail Carmona's broodmare field and be completely surrounded by all these Babson mares, without a worry. That's what I love about the Babson Horses is their people-loving disposition and their plain old, good sense. smile.gif

Thanks for the stroll down memory lane tonight. Some of my happiest years were spent at Princeton Arabians and Los Alamos Dressage Center!!! smile.gif


Thanks for sharing that experience. Perhaps what was meant should have been stated like this: "Babson blood does not have any relevance in todays halter breeding programs."

I would even go so far as to substitute "garden ornament" for "halter". I have heard comments which amount to the same thing you've heard. Right now the "Halter" world has all the glamour and money - now all they need is some real horses to go with it. Not that there are not a few good ones in halter, because there certainly are. Many of those DO have Babson - the owners may not be aware of it. wink.gif

Ray biggrin.gif
Pete Hiatt
I have full sisters who look the same other than one is 14.2 and the other is 15.2. The same lines plus 30 years of different breeders can lead to incredible differences. Look at Inshass vs EAO. Completely different look with the same starting lines.

I also have a 34 year old mare. I saved her from the killers. A friend's boyfriend stole her horses when she was away (and later incapable of taking care of any). I picked her up, drove her home and when called by the evil one simply told him "Any time, anywhere, any caliber." I never heard from him again. She is a bit Crabbet, a bit Polish, a bit American, etc. She is absolutely gorgeous of head and body. So much so that, God willing, I'll take her to the Al Khamsa convention next year. Some well built horses retain overall beauty forever.
kay cochran
Dear All, I remember Judi Forbis saying she felt like the Babson lines should be considered the same as the more recent imports. She certainly felt they were valuable. I did not know it was Kline that pinned that name, new vs. old. Is'nt it all old? I think it went back to money. I remember you could buy the Babsons much cheaper and we were told by other breeders not to buy anything with Babson in the bloodline. Well, I didn't listen and I bought what I thought were good horses. The mares with Babson were very prolific and were easy to breed. Besides they had those big old Crabbet eyes which some of the "new straights" didn't have. Their bloodlines go back to the same horses, so in my opinion there is no difference as to value only in the qualities that you get from the Babson horses. I still have Babson lines in my horses. Sincerely, Kay
Off topic, but why do you compare everything to Crabbet horses? Are you breeding Crabbet horses or CMK horses and see them as the same as SE?
QUOTE (Pete Hiatt @ Jun 25 2008, 04:40 AM)
Look at Inshass vs EAO. Completely different look with the same starting lines.


Dear Pete, Yes, the Egypt 1 group contains Inshass blood.
Kimberli Nelson
QUOTE (Echo1 @ Jun 25 2008, 02:57 PM)
Dear Pete,  Yes, the Egypt 1 group contains Inshass blood.

Kelly, can you tell us which horses in Egypt 1 are Inshass? I thought that Inshass had Egypt 1 blood, not the other way around. Where is my mistake?
Dear Jennifer

I cant believe anybody would say this, other than a "Idiot". that is a georgeous mare you show a photo off, would love to own her. Here is the substance and the arabian type which is so much wanted by experts.

As you now I purchased AK Shah Munifeh (the Aaroufa female tail line) when he was at side of his dam in 1988. that female line is very simlar to our imports, Gleannloch's and Plumgroves. He became one of our senior stallions and we exported his excellent daughters and sons to countries such as Italy, Switzerland,Germany, England, Venezuela, Canada , AE etc.etc. and all did well for their owners. He produced multiple champions and at age 20 looks and acts like a 10 year old. And his get produced also well. One can see what they are like on our website.

I often get so upset, even angry, when such dumb statements are made, indicating such total ignorance, How do we ever end up with people like that in our industry? they onely see one thing, have blinkers on and never ever look at all bloodlines, which should include all "Asil" bloodlines, be it Davenport,Doyle,
etc.etc. If one wants to breed a functional horse, one must go about it without sunglasses on, must respect a good horse when one sees it, even if it is not such person's type. The sooner we teach in seminars what a good horse is supposed to be like and forget about pointing out deformed heads, but rather teach the "Jibba" to be recognized, etc.etc. or forego good conformation points to make a horse stand up and do what it is supposed to we be so far ahead..

I think often of Albert Gibault, how carefully he bred his horses, how he travelled thousands of miles throughout this continent to look at Arabs, and even have a video when he was one of the first seeing us and the imports in 1968 and 1970.
I considered him one of our finest breeders and a true Gentleman..

Or I think of old Mr sheets (Grandfather of young Billy- all now dead) who brought the first Straight egyptian to Canada, "Abgar" (1964 (Fa-Serr x Fa-Abba) when a
weanling, bred by Babson. I remember him well, a blood bay, about 14,2 hands tall looking like a 15hander, absolutely georgeous outstanding stallion, a flying machine. And there are many other truly outstanding Babsons, just look at the Bruce Jonson herd and their accomplishments or how well Susan Mayo is doing with the babsons.

Ignorance is bliss, and we simply have to ignore such folks.I wish they would start breeding Goldfish, then they can flush their mistakes down the toilet.

Take care
hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
kay cochran
Well, Ehco, I guess I am comparing them to the Crabbet horses because they were the foundation of so many of our modern bloodlines today and because the Arabs I fell in love with were Crabbet. The Arabs we started with were Crabbet bred, all with Serafix breeding. We started with several Serafix daughters. Everyone told us when we started buying straights that we should watch it because the straights were much hotter. Ha! they were the same as our Crabbet bred Serafix horses. The straights, at least a lot of them did not have the huge eyes my Serafix horses did. So, that is why I compare them to the Crabbet bred Arabs. If you look at Serafix's pedigree you will see that he was all Abbas Phasha breeding except for the two lines to Skowronek. He was a brilliant chestnut, he had a full brother that was grey and they were totally different types. And, I believe he was tail female Rose of Sharon. It's been a long time since I even thought about all this. I'll have to look it up again, don't hold me to info now, it's hard when you have crs syndrome.
Hello Kay,

CRS is a bummer! On the other hand, there is a LOT to know, much less remember most of it. I'm thinking that you have forgotten more than most of us will ever learn, anyway! wink.gif

Serafix, on the tail, goes back to the German mare, Dajania (GSB*37 Bay 1876) biggrin.gif

Nadj al Nur
"German mare" ???? Nothing German about Dajania, Ray............must be Kay's syndrome kikkin in.............
Ooops - GSB is NOT German Stud Book, but the GENERAL Stud Book, of England. Thank you Cathy. It might be time to pull your pigtails again... wink.gif

I really need to study up on the Crabbet stuff some more....

Ray blink.gif
kay cochran
Dear Cathy, Now, don.t make fun of us "old people" you'll get there too.
Speaking of *Serafix, there are some dandy photos of him on the AHA Datasource. Which got me to thinking. He looks like a QH. But wait a minute. Which came first? The Arab, of course. So QH's really look like Arabs - the "old style" Arabs. I can see how this horse would fit right in, in QH country. But he sure wouldn't fit in to most Arab breeding programs these days. Kinda like the Babsons don't fit in.... ph34r.gif

kay cochran
Dear Cathy, Sorry, I guess you are closer than I thought but I still have 10 years on you. Kay
kay cochran
Now, Ray, I can really tell you never saw Serafix. As far as not fitting in with todays horses that is so not true. He had what these so called halter halter horses need so desperately.,Big bodies, lots of bone, well shaped necks with long mitbuhs, strong gaskins, strong stifles, and large eyes. John bred some of his mares to El Hilal and got some super halter horses. He had incredible park type action, all natural. Robbie Kubela bred some of her race horses to John's Serafix bred stallions and got some pretty darn good horses. It's all gone now. I hate what happens to some of these bloodlines, they just disappear. John was not a bullshitter either. He told it like it was, now he wouldn't fit in todays style of showing.
Nadj al Nur
There is still a fair bit of Serafix AND Silver Drift breeding around this area..........some darn nice horses and doing quite well in endurance.........not much wrong with them in the "pretty" department either.

PS... Kay, was not "making fun". I just figure if we don't laugh at ourselves, then somebody else is bound to do it for us.............
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