Hiya, a lot of people say that egyptians can't move. Personally I have seen quite a few that are great movers, Imperial Kamill and Crusader spring to mind but I have seen others that are really poor.
Which egyptians do you think move best? are there any lines/families that are famed for their movement??

Shalom from Israel!
I agree that Crusader is a great mover - his half-brother El Aziz B (Salaa el Dine x 20 Abbas Pasha I) is also a great mover.
We find that our all Babolna horses - all carrying some degree of Ibn Galal and/or Ibn Galal I blood have and produce excellent movement almost across the board, with particularly good tail carriage.
This group definitely stands out, from the rest of our Egyptian herd in these respects.
All the best,
Tzviah Idan
Idan Atiq

Shalom from Israel!
I agree that Crusader is a great mover - his half-brother El Aziz B (Salaa el Dine x 20 Abbas Pasha I) is also a great mover.
We find that our all Babolna horses - all carrying some degree of Ibn Galal and/or Ibn Galal I blood have and produce excellent movement almost across the board, with particularly good tail carriage.
This group definitely stands out, from the rest of our Egyptian herd in these respects.
All the best,
Tzviah Idan
Idan Atiq

Morafic horses are great movers and those with Sameh close up in the pedigree (or double Sameh).
The ebst moving Egyptian horse I saw was Emiratus B, bred at Babolna with Ibn Galal blood.

I agree with all that has been posted but would like to underscore SAMEH. Most of the horses that have impressed me with their movement have had large doses of Sameh in their pedigree, more often than not, the prettiest ones having Sameh, relatively close up, on the maternal side of their pedigree.

Some of the US SE horses are never given a chance to show good movement, They are shod with heavy shoes and pads, they are trained with constant shanks of the chain on the halter. If they break into a nervous canter, WHOA is yelled—the command to stand still, accompanied by a heavy jerk on the chain. !! How confusing. This causes them to put their heads in the air and trot with a hollow back, with the hocks trailing behind. Try running for your life with your back hollowed and your head tipped back. To really show movement a horse must be trained to round his back, lower his head and neck as for collection and engage his hocks. This is how the US Sport Horse horses are being trained to trot out, a much different scene and becoming more and more popular, as owners find that they don't necessarily need trainers.

There is one particular US SE line that a majority of its descendants cannot show good free movement in any circumstances. Liz Salmon

Hi Liz, yes, I think I know which line you mean.

It's such a shame that happens in the US. I always find it strange because people say that egyptians can't move but when you see photo's of them trotting in the field they look like they are fantastic movers......

We have many SEs here that really excel in dressage and endurance. The problem is often that knee action for saddleseat is so popular that often all movement is compared to it. It drives many of us mad !! Liz Salmon

Liz, I sound really silly now but how do they make the horse have that really high knee action that you see in the photo's in the World.... being from England I find it really bizarre! And it looks uncomfortable...?

Mostly its done by using a contraption known as a stretcher. This goes round the neck and thick rubber bands are attached from it to the front legs, that restrict the leg from coming forward, in other words shortening the stride, so that the horse has to snap his leg upwards, heavy shoes & pads are also used. Then you have the rider sitting back on the loins holding his hands up high helping to elevate the front end. In addition Arabians are being bred specifically for these classes that show more knee action naturally. Americans have also done this to the Shetland ponies, which now look nothing like the genuine island ponies. I would say that on the whole the US SE breeders are keeping much more to true type and movement than any other bloodline breeders. Liz Salmon

Thats really sad. I could never do something like that to a horse. And whats the point of doing it to shetlands!?!? Weird.

I like the Nabiel lines for movement!

Betty Keating

"Storming into the next class for World Class stallions of 10 and over, was an ethereal apparition trotting as only the European stallions do. This was NIGMH (Ansata Halim Shah x Nasbah). He's a lovely stallion and was shown to his best. He easily won the class unanimously.

I think he's a stunning stallion, and as I say in my article, he would have been my choice for Champion, with Ansata Iemhotep Reserve."

-Liz Salmon
from the 2002 US Egyptian Event coverage

Thanks Ms. Salmon for these kind words regarding NIGMH. It was your high opinion of NIGMH that was one of the factors in his purchase. The reason for his spectacular movement is the fact that NIGMH is out of a very well-bred German mare, with good "old" racing blood in her pedigree.

Kind Regards,
Lucky

Goodmorning

I do not feel embarresed to state that ALL SERENITY
bred horses can "fly" with incredible far reaching strides.
Many of them are successful race horses, endurance horses, dressage etc.but also halter champions. They all have that powerful rearend,
tremendous withers and girth as well as very correct legs.

We contribute this to the genetic influence of particularly "Antar" (Anter) (Inshass) (1946 in combination with Sameh, Nazeer, and the unsong hero "Mashhour"
(1941) through both female and male tail lines.

We have horses here which when they "trot", horses owned by other parties have to canter to keep up with them. they also have enormous speed. TP Shahlouk (1995) out of Serenity Shara (Hadban enzahi- sheherezade line) won the 50 miler at the EE last year doing the last five miles in ten minutes flat. Multiple 100milers have also been produced by us.

Have anice day

Hansi

hoi,
In the Netherlands.......AMGAD , [Shadwan x Insaf] .
[URL=www.smaroel.com].
bye

The one and only for movement is Gharib

Yes, I agree with all what was said. Nabiel is adescendant of Sakr/Sultan/Sameh so it comes down to Sameh. The Gleannloch horses usually could trot beautifully and they also had close lines to Sameh in many cases (in combination with Morafic on the sire line). In Germany Madkour horses can move especially well, so here we have Morafic again. The combination of Morafic, Sameh and a touch of Anter in my opinion makes a good moving horse.

Hansi, I couldn't agree with you more. I've not seen your horses in the flesh--only photos. But, if a person can tell just from a photo how powerfully a horse moves, then the real life experience must give you chills!

ALL of your beloved horses are incredible athletes. If I get to Florida in the not-too-distant future, a visit to your beautiful farm is a must.

I believe good movement is evident in all strains of Arabians, it just depends on the particular ancestors and how prepotent their movement has been to future generations. I too get tired of hearing people say that Egyptian horses don't move as well as other strains.

Baloney!

Good movement is not necesarily "break-level" trotting. Good movement is when a horse is completely engaged, driving off powerful hocks and moving forward with balanced, beautiful, free-shoulder movement. I had the pleasure of watching a beautiful *Simeon Shai daughter being shown a few years ago in halter/breeding class. She was all grace and light--daintily trotting around the ring as though she was a wild deer in the forest. I remember seeing the fabulous Shilo's Pegasus, a grandson of Richard Pritzlaff's brillant stallion, Rashad Ibn Nazeer, totally capitvate a crowd of people watching a liberty class. He was silvery grey with a banner-like tail and powerful, graceful movement that took your breath away.

Recently on the forum the beautiful and impressive young stallion, *Rushan, was talked about. Now here is a horse that can MOVE! *Rushan is like an equine Barishnykov (sp?). Powerful, proud, graceful (and for all you *El Shaklan fans, he is "double" *El Shaklan!)

A good friend of mine breeds horses of the *El Mareekh line, specifcally concentrating on the blood of Sameh and Anter. Her horses are beautiful, powerful movers!

--Susan

Amazing horse,
5miles in ten minutes, ...........that is 2 minutes per mile or 30 mph sustained for ten minutes........truly amazing.........

JAL

I’d agree the Sameh lines do offer great movement, particularly through the mare lines. Though I have seen some rather nice (huge, bold) movers based on Al Karim Sirhalima (Ansata Ibn Halima x Sirhabba) bloodlines. Crossing of Sameh lines with AK Sirhalima lines amongst others, sees some very nice moving sE.

I feel it’s a combination effect – finding bloodlines showing a bold-movement capability confirms at least one common denominator. Sometimes it’s the other background horses in the pedigree who are the major factors in producing bold movers. I feel movement must come from both sides of the pedigree to be substantiated genetically. Though knowing what style of structure allows bold movement is a bonus!

I also liked the look of the first Australian Champion and premier sE mare, 27 Ibn Galal V’s movement via photos Crossing this mare’s lines with the above AK Sirhalima and Sameh based lines are also proving to produce nice movers.
Like to see this cross? www.Talika.ArabianHorse.com

So true, Saskia, and he has such a nice dispositio n as well!

People who have seen DALIA HALIM (Ansata Halim Shah x AK Bint Dalia II. by Ibn Moniet El Nefous) trotting in the ring or in the field know that straight egyptian horses don´t have to step back behind the polish or russian horses!!
But there are a lot more with enormous movements and straight egyptian pedigree!!!!!!!!

Christian
Al Muntaha Arabians
www.almuntaha.com

Our El Fagr descendants are fabulous movers, but honestly so were all our old lines, so not being there in the 40`s I cannot say who taks the credit but the `Egyptian` element certainly did NOT have a NEGATIVE influence there! I have been privileged to see some fabulous movers IN Egypt over the years, most of the Marei horses move well,Ibtihag was a prime example, Nabeel II of Hedaya stud is a superb mover too and warmed all our hearts by his exuberance,expression and COOPERATION when shown by Mrs Hedaya at the Nationals there last year. Another Egyptian -born fabulous mover who stands out in my mind is Masouda who went from the Hamza stud to Smaroel Arabians in Holland. Of course there are many many others, and one sees a lot of youngsters in Egypt who WOULD move if allowed to.Alia

Hi Forum,

I think old bloodlines are better regarding movement. I mean their movement is really arabian. They don't have high knee action like most of the modern Arabian show horse. They still have a correct endurance horse movement. This is due to their close pure Bedouin blood. Bedouin never bred the kind of horse we can see on show rings today.

As a matter of fact, old Egyptian bloodlines can produce some of the best moving Arabians of today. Movements just as good as the polish horses. I mean for example Babsons. Guess why they are so great in performance classes ? They are just like Bedouin war horse. Their movement is free, flowing, so natural...

Nawal Bint Salima by Nur Ad Dine(Salaa el Dine)*Salima(Madkour I)
she can fly



Miri

One will not find a lack of movement here at Abbasiyah either. We are utilizing up close EAO blood, primarily those lines with Anter, Nazeer, Sameh and Alaa El Din.

All visitors to Ocala, Florida are invited to stop by and see our select group of horses. We can guarantee that you will not be disappointed! That goes for you too Ralph when you visit our area again

Judi
Abbasiyah

Do you think perhaps that alot of straights have beautiful movement if they do not have on the pads, long hooves and heavy shoes. As well if they are alowed to move out freely. I know of many of them that have wonderful flying movement.

And if they have good confirmation, does not have to be perfect.

All I can say (as I pick my jaw up off the floor ) is wow wow wow what a beauty, we need more like this in America. Imagine too that this is where Ansata is!

I'd have to say that if you love good moving Straight Egyptian Arabians then you do need to visit Talika Arabians. They combine Sameh, Tuhutmos, Ibn Moniet el Nefous, Neshan and Babson lines and you can see the engagement and three good paces.

Then to ride them:-) Nothing like a beautiful moving horse with a brilliant temperament and beauty.

When I see SE's that can move better than the Talika ones I'll be the first to tell you about them:-)

Lisa

Hello!

In my opinion there are a lot of Arabians (not just SE) horses out there that cannot move! I hear so many people exclaim "wow - can that horse move!" - but they are simply mesmerized by the suspension of the horse. Yes, suspension is important, but I see a definite lack in the ability of horses to extend - to REACH forward and "eat up the ground"!

In addition, there is move to good movement than the trot. There is the walk (which Hansi refers to often - very important), but also the canter! I want to see ground covering strides at the canter with rhythm and balance. How many times have you seen arabians with this "bunny-hop" type canter - how disappointing !!??

Just my "Two Cents" worth!!

Very true, also lots of horses who do a lot of moving and very little going anywhere, or go with exaggerated action but really don`t engage or get their hocks under them at all behind. At shows a lot of it can be nerves but it is frustrating to see the arbitrary points awarded.....having said that, I am sure that I am as guilty of giving the wriong marks as anyone else, i sometimes feel I must have been looking at a different horse to the other judges,most embarrassing. Alia

I have had the pleasure of meeting two egyptian stallions with wonderful movement and I own another who is very blessed with motion. My own good moving horse is Shalimaar Shirah (El Halimaar x *Marhalla GASB)... he is a top ten winner in halter at the Event and has several english pleasure wins at the Event as well as other shows. The other two I have seen that are very blessed with motion are: Saareef (Hadaya El Tareef x Saadaa by Zaghloul) and the other is Hemaya Ilahiyya (Halima El Mansour x Ravenwood Mistana).

I know these horses personally and would be happy to send photos and owner info off to anyone interested.

Donna

Howdy,

I don't know if many of you remember the great Hamdan son, *Fol Yasmeen, that Martin Loeber imported from the Hamdan Stables in 1970? To my mind, he was one of the most elegant movers to ever come out of Egypt. Granted, he was considered straight Egyptian because of that tainted Registan blood, he was a real loss to Egyptian breeding. I saw him as an aged horse and have seen a number of his get and grand get. His motion has bred on. On top of his near perfect conformation, impeccable legs and fabulous motion he carried no Nazeer breeding. Which would be a bonus as an out cross sire. I always think of him as the one who 'got away' in SE breeding programs.

Jim Robbins
R-Farm

Jim

Thank you for your recollections.

I own a great granddaughter of Fol Yasmeen, who I bought as a yearling (she is now 16). I was particularly impressed with her movement!

She is half Egyptian (except for the Registan!) and quarter each good moving Spanish and Crabbet. Unsurprisingly her foals have all had outstanding movement, as well as good looks.

Vanessa

As a dressage person, movement is very important to me. I also judge a lot by a horse's walk. In the US rules, it says that all paces should be judged equally, but so many horses here walk with a short strided shuffle, both in halter and performance. I like to see a good overstride, which tells me how well the hindquarters are driving. Much of it comes from inferior training though. The Sport Horses classes have really been a wake up call to many on how to assess movement. I have seen good and bad movement in all bloodlines. Liz Salmon

Hi Liz,
I think many breeders/owners never learned to judge the difference between an excellent and a mediocre walk. I remember you wrote recently about (vet?)students: Qite a percentage of students never learn how to judge a horde correctly. They don´t have an eye or the feeling to judge a horse.
In Germany old horsemen said, walk is the most important gait. A good walk is inherited. If a horse has a long stride, galop will be good as well. Trot is supposed to be the pace which is the easiest to improve by training. In addition - the advantage of walk is that your eyes can follow the movement, you can measure it immediately. In shows you see horses hardly walking. Stallions are to exited. Even if they walk, it´s a short hectic movement.
I guess the egyptian import horses had better movement than the average egyptian today. That´s the reason that we flew to USA last year to look for horses very close to the original imports. Finally we ended up in Florida and bougth two Serenity mares. If I look at pregnant Serenity Kalila (Khofo x Galila) it´s a pleasure just to see her walking. What a stride, beautiful harmonious movement.
Or I remember Hansi´s Serenity Muhammed. I never have seen a stallion covering more ground (in trot) than him. If somebody is not sure about good movements he/she should visit Serenity Farm. I think I should send some german judges to Hansi .

Sorry,
I forgot to post my name.

If Dalia Halim is such a great mover, then why post a head shot? Are there no photos which show how he can move?

Hi Maria,
I will post a picture of Dalia Halim, but I don´t know how if it is only on my PC and not in the www with it´s own URL!?
If you give me your Email adress I´ll send you some pics of Dalia Halims movement...
At the show in Ströhen last year he had the highest score of all horses in the show for his trot!
In germany he is well known for this!!!
Kind regards
Christian
Al Muntaha Arabians

Thanks Christian!!!

Can you please post some more?

Howdy,

Dalia Halim looks gorgeous and moves as pretty as he looks, from the photograph.

For Heinz, the Russian horses do move well. But, they also lack in many other areas, which is why Aswan was the most heavily used stallion (Arabian) in Russia of this past century. Movement is just 'movement' if the horse has a homely head, long back and little breed type.

As breeders, we should be looking more at the complete package: Type, movement, conformation and disposition. As well as a solid enough pedigree, whatever the bloodlines, to pass these traits on. Just my opinion.

Jim Robbins
R-Farm

Ok,

I'll behave myself and say that two other SE's that I like to see in a movement pedigree are Al Karim Ibn Moniet el Nefous and Ansata El Shahwan.

Now to movement - this has been one of my 'pet' subjects as I'm a sucker for a good mover, and I've got friends who are into warmbloods and tell me that arabians cannot move! (they still really like my mare's movement).

I remember hearing at a conformation clinic that the reason why you look for a good walk and a good canter and ignore the trot is that the conformation for a good trotter is oppositional to a horse with a good canter. The clinician said that the good canter and good walk require a good length of femur(?) or was it another bone? and a horse with an exceptional trot will be shorter in this same bone.

Considering that when I read the old books they mention that arabians don't trot, they canter everywhere. So I'm thinking - when we breed for big trotting horses - are we breeding away from true type?

Another WB friend mentioned that she didn't like a lot of arabian canter's because they don't get a good distance between the two legs, that upside V shape - so we sat down with a couple of videos and argued about it. Unfortunately she was right with a lot of arabians - a lot couldn't get a good distance between the hindlegs when they land the diagonal stride.

So I trotted back up to my conformation expert friend who was very very naughty and asked me which horses had the good stifle angulation. She was right - the bloodlines that breed for a straighter stifle angle had the poor canters, this would explain why a lot of the old crabbet horses with their overangled legs could canter a lot better than a lot of the modern straight legged arabians. Too straight in the backlegs.

Other than SE lines - Diane Wilson's related herd have beautiful movement, I like the movement on a lot of the Hawley horses and I find that a lot of my favourite moving english lined horses were bred by the Bligh's of Bostocks Arabian Stud. Love Bostocks blood:-)

Lisa

There is a big moving russian stallion over here named Barabas (imp UK) (Nadejni x Barhatnaja) he is absolutely breathtaking to watch!!! Simeon Solomon (AK Jabal Ibn Moniet x Simeon Safanad) is also a big mover and SE. I can't think of any more off the top of my head but IMO I dont think any particular type moves better than the other it comes down to the individual.

Alisha

Lisa, that's a fascinating point of view! However, I just wondered... Arabs were originally bred for long distances at a relatively high speed, as war horses, weren't they? Please correct if I am wrong. This is still their strong point today, if you look at the best endurance horses. So aren't we looking at different types of desirable movement? As an example: it may be that an arab is less at dressage than a warmblood because its type of movement is different form the one desirable for a dressage horse. See the comments of your WB friend above. But if the arab horse, with its "restricted" hind legs is the better endurance horse, then my conclusion would be that for endurance such"good" movement is not necessary and may even be contrary to endurance requirements because it may be less energy efficient, if you know what I mean. So I am not at all sure if it is right to say that "arabs can't move" because they move differently from other breeds. Why think that a WB person knows what good movement should look like and an arab person wouldn't? We talk about different things, after all, our horses have different uses. And I don't like the idea that, if WB people and arab people see things differently, the WB are automatically right (no personal argument against your friend meant!). Nono, don't be too modest, arab people also know a lot about horses! Perhaps some experienced endurance person who also has a good eyefor these things can give some comments to this question: would the kind of movement desirable for a WB also be desriable for endurance? In this respect, I found the remark of an elderly, very experienced judge very interesting: the best endurance horses are "steepest" ones, the less angled ones. We speculated that perhaps this is less comfortable to ride and more of a strain on the bones, but perhaps less prone to injuries to the tendons and ligaments, because bone is much harder and can stand so much more. Which brings me back to your conclusion that perhaps we should not try to lay too much emphasis on trot?
Just some thoughts....

Asfour and 27 Ibn Galal V

Hi! My stallion Nabil El Sheruk has the most beautiful movement I've ever seen! Of course he's mine so I should feel this way! He is extremely tall 15.3 and his barn name is Legs! His movement is very flat kneed and he has extreme extension. A dressage horse au natural! His strain is Hadban Enzihi. I like this strain a lot. It is known for great legs.

We have seen some very good examples of good movement within SE bloodstock. Unfortunately, Park/English Pleasure horses are offen the ones considered to have "big movement" yet many don't have the ability to collect, extend or at times even balance themselves. IMO, good movement requires more then simply a lot of action up front. While Park can and is exciting, we perfer to use Dressage as our yard stick in which to measure good movement.

This is a three yr old SE/AK filly, out of a Serr Maariner daughter whom is very well suited for Dressage

hoi,
VEERRRRRRRYYYYYYY NIICCCEEEEEEEE Horse, this mare is A Absolute Amazing BEAUTY!!!!!!! Me Like ,Me in Love !!!!......
bye,
saskia.