Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Statement Regarding *exochorda
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - Übersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Ralph
QUOTE (1rider @ Jul 16 2008, 11:25 AM)
What research Ralph have you done do you travel to foriegn countries to investigate write books what! why should i even listen to you?
Ken
*


Can someone explain to me, WHY, when I or anyone for that matter offers contrasting opinion (especially when Hansi is involved) , we are "credentialed"???? It is insulting to the dignity of a human being, who loves Arabian Horses, to always be proving that they have a right to express an opinion. ON AN OPEN FORUM!!!! mad.gif

If you really want to know more about me Ken, go to my blog:

www.egyptianarabian.blogspot.com

I have been around for a long time, I have seen many great horses, know the Egyptian horses inside and out, I have studied and read many of the publications that have been written on the Arabian Horse, have donated most of my library to Al Khamsa's fund raising auctions and friends, I ride and show in dressage.....now, it sounds like I am bragging and I am a modest person.

Ralph
Caryn Rogosky
"Hansi's position on Exochora, as I understand it, is that this mare should have been sent the letter which reads: "Thank you for your interest in joining our Organization. However, at this time we are unable to verify your place of birth, your parentage or your date of birth". If you can supply us with that information we will be happy to review your application"

If that were the case, that same letter would have had to be sent for every Arabian who carries a line to Halabia...and that would be every living Egyptian Arabian horse.

I would also add that even with the very impressive and important scroll which was presented to Hansi on El Dere, to the best of my knowledge there is still no verification on his exact place of birth, his specific parentage or his exact date of birth. It is, however, outstanding verification that he is an authentic desertbred horse and the rest we take as a matter of faith, the same circumstances for most if not all of our horses ancestors.

I reinterate my earlier request that for the sake of fairness, the same standards be applied equally across the board
Caryn
Ralph
QUOTE (HLM @ Jul 16 2008, 11:32 AM)
Dear Ralph.

to explain me, have I not done this often? I dont know what you mean with me having authority or not over SEs. Remember, I published my Straight EGyptian Index in 1989 to 1996- six huge volumes with adequate explanations on many.
Also have a substancial database with more Non SE/Asils in it than the latter.
Also please remember I do not pick things out of a hat, I go by Studbooks, herdbooks or any other documentation related to it.

When it comes to horses, the only authority I have over them are my horses.
I hope this answers your question?

Take care
hansi  biggrin.gif
*


No, it really doesn't Hansi. Because if I read your answer correctly, you are not employed by, you have not been invited by, nor are you a consultant to the Pyramid Society, which is the only organization in America that can say "yes, a horse is straight Egyptian" or "no, a horse is not straight Egyptian". The books you mentioned, were done of your own free will, they are your business venture. You are a researcher, you published your books and you sell your books. You make money from your books. So, I can read your books and decide for myself whether I want to believe you or not. I am not forced to believe what you have published. I don't say this to discredit your work, as I think there is value in it. However, you are like any one else in the SE Community who publishes books. Anyone can read the book and form their opinion to believe or not.

Ralph
Ralph
And you still have not answered this question Hansi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE (Ralph @ Jul 16 2008, 10:25 AM)
Hansi, one of the first messages you posted in this discussion (post #19), you said the following:  "I also wish that people would not get that upset, because as of this date the mare is still accepted as an "Asil" Arabian horse, just like the Ses. While some powerful breeders have the bloodlines, they should be satisfied when it produced good Asil Arabian horses . And t is also good to refresh with lines needed here and there."

And I need to ask you this question, as it has been on my mind since you wrote this. If you woke up tomorrow morning and your horses were no longer considered SE but remain Asil Horses, how would you feel? Will you be happy about this? Why would you believe that others would be happy if such a thing happened to their horses?

Respectfully,

Ralph
*
Ralph
QUOTE (HLM @ Jul 16 2008, 11:27 AM)
Dear Ray

Yes it would have been wonderful had those wondering about the background of Exochorda gotten in touch with me, we could have gotten together and exchanged our views, data etc. I have done this various times with other researchers, twice drove from Florida to Arkansa to see CarolSchultz, one of the greatest authorities on Ails Arabian horses anywhere, spent once a whole week there to exchange data, views and research. These complaining couple of people to the best of my knowledge never visited other ME countries or may be even Europe, joined the wAHO meetings, spoke to registras and delegates of other nations, authorities on the subjects, attended many AK meetings, or even PS meetings in earlier years.

I remember a time when the Saudis wanted data on 60 horses they wanted to import. Within three hours I faxed them 60 pedigrees. I was proud to research their first volume studbook and advise of what is Asil and not. I am proud to be able with Syrian researchers friends working on the Syrian horses. As you will notice, I do not concentrate just ON ONE HORSE, BUT SPENT OVER 50 YEARS WORKING ON THOUANDS. I also worked dilligently on the Iranis and the Iraquies, as well as the Turks.

during my many years of persuing one of my love affairs "Research" I only had the most congenial, wonderful experiences with other researchers. While at times we agreed to not agree, it was done in a tasteful and respectful manner. Even at the JC in Kentucky, where Carol Schultz and I researched, this TB organization opened their hearts to us, let us photocopy for days and never charged us a penny. We found over 600 Syrian Asil imports into Italy etc during 1821-1872 and exports back to Egypt and Imports from egypt even from the a Pasha sale.(over 100). I asked on this forum others to help, but in vain.

So so did the JC in Toronto Canada, elated that I would research to find original Arabian horses imported on to the North American continent. photocopying for days and never got charged. The same happened in Germany, when the archive manager was amazed, honered and thrilled when I tried to find data of the original Weil Imports. But so was Tamas  Rombauer when he allowed me to check through some of the immaculate data kept in their herdbooks. Unfortunately time was always an essence, and one would have to go back to do more, because there is so much to check through. The financial output over the years by me have been substancial,but  is my contribution for the preservation of the Asil Desert Bred Arabian horse. AND THAT IS MY MOTIVE, NO OTHER! this is why I am just as conversend with non Asil bloodlines, know excatly what the master breeders in Europe and the Brish Isle accomplished, what they bred and how and why.

I have been attacked, humiliated spoken on this forum in some of the crudest and hatefull and disrespectful words, insulted from day one, always put on the defence while these folks tried to defend a horse, rather than willing to discuss it in a dignified and decent manner.  Numerous times I invited to come and visit and go through my files, but none has. No effort was made to solve this matter together, because no researcher on this earth knows it all, but exchanges data without hesitation, and in dignity and with respect. Research is not for the faint hearted, it takes time and money and most of all a Talent to find and intrepete , to authenticate.

What bothers me, that some of these people do have an interlect, are educated
and should never stoop this low  and make it a personal issue and the only conclusion I can come to is that THEY DONT WANT TO KNOW. and have a personal motive. If this is correct, how does this help the horses in question?

What would have been wrong in footnoting at the PS and the sheykh Obeyd Org.
the true findings up to whatever date? to state that research is going on and any new findings be published? Rather than these consistent personal attacks. Rememebr the original acceptance was based on a hoenst error, not fraud or misrepresentation. But once we know this, and donot acknowledge it, then it does become a detrimental issue and behavior.,

to answer another question, what I would do if all our Serenity horses were no longer SE, but Asil. 'NOTHING" it woul not bother me one bit at this time, because the glamor of the SE horses has been greatly soiled, basically because few following in the footsteps of the original imports which made the SE famous through under Saddle and combined halter accomplishments. At least the ME and Persian regions test and evaluate accordingly, and most certainly can not afford garden ornaments. That would cut deep into their honor as breeders of Arabian horses. Now this is my opinion.

I trust that this post will now end all further speculations, assumptions, insults and the likes and we all wait for the new findings offered on this forum and subject.

All take care and God bless you and your beloved horses.

Hansi Heck-Melnyk
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


Stop it right there lady...because this feel sorry for me bit, has really been worn out. You want to talk about hateful, disrespectful, crude??? Why don't you tell everyone here about the email you sent me, telling me that if I were a horse on your farm, you would shoot me? Kill me??? I don't think anything can be worse than telling someone that they should be dead.

Also, while you are at it, why don't you tell everyone that I tried to make peace with you, and even bought you a dozen roses. And instead of saying thank you, you emailed me to say I should have sent you more roses and that you didn't like the color white. That, in any country is rude. I didn't have to send you anything. Especially, after you said I should be dead. There is an old Spanish saying that says, "Sometimes by losing, you end up winning" I wanted to honor this saying. What a fool, I was. mad.gif

I have had it. With this dysfunctional relationship that everyone has with you in this community. You are a bitter old woman and you will never change. mad.gif
Chiron
laugh.gif laugh.gif Ralph........YOU SIR......are my HERO. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


P.S. I didn't just bounce off the turnip truck. I've been a member of the Arabian Registry (for better or worse) since 1960. blink.gif
2mntn
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Jul 16 2008, 05:30 PM)
...
I reinterate my earlier request that for the sake of fairness, the same standards be applied equally across the board
Caryn
*


It would appear that no one is in a position to apply standards to anything. What has been done is done and there is no going back. The status of Exochorda will never change, nor will that of Rabanna or El Dere or Kars and several others.

And so it would seen that this entire "affair" is nothing more than an exercise in futility, in that regard. Well, perhaps something educational will come of it.

Ray
Caryn Rogosky
I wanted to expand just a little on what Marilyn posted regarding the amount of time we spent in Egypt. Of that nearly two week stay, I believe that we spent six days at El Zahraa and the EAO, but Marilyn can correct me on that if I've miscounted. In any event, it was too short a time!
Caryn
HLM
O my God Ralph, what is wrong with you? I never thanked you for the roses, because they w ere funeral roses, remember, wishing me death. Then lately you excused this with ignorance about the colour.

I have never ever-mailed you as you stated, but have been most concerned with your family problems etc and always offered help. Even when you wanted to start your own little farm some time ago. Why are you always reading things into things which are not there? who is asking for pitty? you got to be kidding.you make accusiations you dont know anything about. and No, I never made money on my indexes/books, lost over $ 100,000 can you imagine?
You obviously have not read any. so how can you evaluate? Did your mother really teach you being so disrespectfull, I like to doubt it.I just pray that your own children some day will not copy it.

Ralph I really think you need to be more carefull and dont write when your temper flares.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Sumerlan
"If we are serious about protecting and securing the future of this remarkable creature for the future joy of mankind, we must do our best to maintain what, to our best knowledge, represents the ancient genetic links to the breed's known origins in their most direct context. At the same time, we must be honest and realistic in our approach, knowing that we will NEVER have a complete or perfect text which answers all of the questions regarding its past".
Caryn

I am going to break my silence on this forum as the above statement must be sincerely applauded. I must also applaud Ralph for his neverending love of this wonderful breed and his true love for its history ... placing his heart into each and every written word ... thank you to Caryn, and Marilyn for your tenacity to achieve, in good faith, answers to the many questions regarding the historical past of the breed.

I have been clapping my hands in complete joy all day!!!

Susan Gilbert
Sumerlan
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE(1rider @ Jul 16 2008, 11:25 AM)
"What research Ralph have you done do you travel to foriegn countries to investigate write books what! why should i even listen to you?
Ken"

Ken, we don't know each other and I don't expect you to take what I have to say at face value...I don't happen to think anyone should take the words of someone they don't know well at face value. But for what it is worth, I met Ralph about 10 years ago I think, right here on this forum. I was in the midst of a debate with Hansi (what a shock, eh?) and not knowing me from Adam but knowing of and respecting Hansi, he was very angry at my challenging what she had to say. He directed some pretty strong statements at me in defending Hansi, which I understood and accepted. At any rate, the discussion progressed and Ralph paid attention to what was going on and began to see things from a little different perspective. I don't mean to speak for him, but I thought that it might be helpful for you to know that he has been paying attention to this topic and many others for quite some time...long enough to earn several post graduate degrees on SE.COM discussions if there was such a thing! wink.gif

If you stay around long enough, and I do hope you will, you will find that there are good reasons for you to listen to Ralph. There are some amazingly intelligent people who participate on this site -- really, its quite incredible the amount of brain power and knowledge that is concentrated right here on this forum, and Ralph is right up there at the top of the list. He's also extremely well read and has collected and studied very important books on Arabian horses for many, many years. I know this to be true because some of the most treasured books in my own library were given to me as gifts from Ralph, taken from his own library. He is passionate and has strong opinions (as do many of us), and he doesn't tend to hold back when he is inspired to "let it rip". Whether you agree with him or not, and there are times when Ralph and I do not share the same opinions, I do believe that you will find that he is genuinely deserving of your "listening" time.
For what its worth, my two cents.
Caryn
Nadj al Nur
Hansi............for your information (and you should know this after all the years that you have been in North America) white roses are a symbol of PEACE,
It is a good thing to pay attention to the customs of the country you are IN, more than the one that you come from.
Cathy
phanilah
Boy, this discussion has taken a bad turn for the worse...time for folks to return to their corners for a time out. wink.gif

IMO, when documentation is located, it is in the best interest of everyone to review it, discuss it (in a civil manner) and then each individual will decide what to do with that info.

Not everyone has to agree, or even like each other - but it would sure be nice if people could be courteous. The personal attacks and sniping have taken a topic that could be very educational and have turned it into nothing short of a mud wrestling match.

Personally, I look forward to learning more about the information found (and quite frankly, the overall trip itself) and I will say that I am very envious of the access given to the Jockey Club records. smile.gif

It seems like we have an opportunity to have some questions answered (or at least partially answered) and we should welcome that opportunity. Even if we choose to agree to disagree once it is all said and done.

As always, JMO! smile.gif

Beth
Nadj al Nur
Right, Beth. Maybe it's time for white roses all around. LOL
Cathy
Ralph
QUOTE (HLM @ Jul 16 2008, 01:44 PM)
I have never ever-mailed you as you stated, but have been most concerned with your family problems etc and always offered help. Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


You most certainly did send me an email, telling me that if I were a horse, on your property, you would shoot me.

I have no idea what family problems you are referring to but would appreciate it, if you leave my family and my mother out of this. mad.gif I have a good family, great parents, great siblings, great children.

You frustrate me Hansi. One one hand, I recognize the woman who trained with Egon Von Neindorff, the late classical master. I don't believe anyone in our community can boast similar riding credentials nor the ability to influence and lead people in the correct training and development of the horse, as per the classical school.You also knew many of the key foundation horses in our community personally and can help to keep the memories of these horses alive forever. Yet, you prefer to embroil yourself in trouble, like a pig in the mud, rolling and rolling, until you are so dirty, no one recognizes you anymore and everyone forgets the good that you might have been able to do. You come in like a storm, spreading your hate, your jealousies, your insecurities and driving people against each other and away from what they wanted to be closer to: the horses. You have been blessed with the ability to sell your horses for significant prices, to be a living legend, around for 40 years, to be recognized for breeding a special kind of horse and all of this accomplishments, is still not enough. You have to trash people who are loved, admired and respected, to make yourself feel better. Sometimes, I think you will not be happy until you are the only one left. Like a kid in a sandbox who refuses to share her toys.

It is a real shame, that some of the beauty of your horses, did not rub off on you and influence you to be a better-behaved person. Instead, you prefer to insinuate that everyone has the problem and not you. That might have worked with one, two or three people but now, it seems like the whole community has the problem, right? Not only are you bitter, you are delusional.
HLM
Well Cathy I beg to differ. I respect the culture and the customs of whatever person I am dealing with. I would not send a muslim a bible, because it is our culture.

Furthermore, you do not know the details earlier of the matter, so why do you stick your nose in? How much do you know about other cultures? One can also judge the person it is coming from and the intend in some case.

If you feel you are so well informed, than enlighten us please but dont judge what you obviously have no clue about, "cultures".

But it would be well served to start being mannerly.

Hansi sad.gif
HLM
Dear Beth

I somuch agree with. But every few yes a particular group stargts flaring up, bad mannered displayed and rudness galore. this has been going by such group for years and they appeared to enjoy it. I sometimes feel I am dealing with a kindergarten group, so full of hate and frustration letting their temper flare..

How these people were brought up, God only knows. I hate to think their parents taught this.

We have indeed some great educated people on this forum, many of which can share a lot of their experiences and stay congenial.
I get many e-mails, telephone calls in absolute amaze over such bad behavior, rudeness and bad manners, and many do not ever wish to go on this forum for the fear of being cruzified by such people. that truly is too bad.

I often wondered why I actually continue, but then I think of the horses, all those wonderful people out there who deserve help and assistance all we can give.
And if new information comes about, it is wonderful, because none of us will ever stop learning, I hope.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Daceena
Though most of you have no idea who I am, I will say that I have been around the Arabian Horse since the late 60's. I have been to Regionals, Nationals, Events, Class A's, many, MANY farms, and seen many of the great ones; yes, even some of the horses Hansi bred. I have read and watched and listened to turmoil swirling throughout the breed; I have laughed at many things, gasped over many things, shaken my head in horror over many things and nodded my head in agreement over many things.

Through it all, I believe I've learned a lot. And one small thing I learned is that Hansi is a controversial person and likes being a controversial person. Right or wrong, that's how it is. I respect her passion and her research, but do, personally, find her very frustrating because she "appears" to be unshakable in her beliefs, even when shown she is wrong.

I have been a researcher in an entirely different species for over 40 years and am considered one of the top researchers in that breed the world round. I know how to research and I know the value of checking facts over and over again. However, I also know when to admit I have been incorrect when facts to the contrary are set before me, and I hope that I graciously concede that correction and move on.

Such a thing is not easy as it's very humbling; some of us don't care to be humbled, I think.

Caryn and Marilyn, I applaud you for taking your time to do the intense research that you have regarding *Exochorda. If you publish your findings and make a few dollars from it, good for you! It's no worse than anyone else making money off, say, a breeding program. I know how difficult it can be to disprove someone else's firm and -ahem- rabid statements, and I say "you go, girls" and do your thing. [insert clapping icon here]

And now back to our regularly scheduled program!
Sue
Ralph
QUOTE (HLM @ Jul 16 2008, 02:59 PM)
I get many e-mails, telephone calls in absolute amaze over such bad behavior, rudeness and bad manners, and many do not ever wish to go on this forum for the fear of being cruzified by such people. that truly is too bad.
Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


That's funny Hansi...how ironic is life...because I am getting the same emails and personal messages about you. mad.gif
2mntn
Ralph!!! If your mother was Latino and anything like the Latino mothers I knew of that age group, she would slap you silly for speaking that way - especially to a woman old enough to be your grandmother! Now wipe that mud off of your face and say you're sorry.

I'll go first, if that will help. I apologize if I have offended anyone with rude and inconsiderate language. I want no regrets about my participation in this and so feel it is appropriate to make that statement.

Ray
Ralph
QUOTE (2mntn @ Jul 16 2008, 03:06 PM)
Ralph!!!  If your mother was Latino and anything like the Latino mothers I knew of that age group, she would slap you silly for speaking that way - especially to a woman old enough to be your grandmother!  Now wipe that mud off of your face and say you're sorry.

I'll go first, if that will help.  I apologize if I have offended anyone with rude and inconsiderate language.  I want no regrets about my participation in this and so feel it is appropriate to make that statement. 

Ray
*


Ray:

My mother is not "latino" and she would slap your face if you ever called her that. tongue.gif I believe you are a very nice man, honestly I do, you make me laugh and I have no war with you but I am done with apologies and I am done, done, done. I am "up to here" with Hansi. I could care less about Hansi. And I hope that she feels the same for me and stops sending me emails. I don't want to hear any more stuff! mad.gif

Ralph
Caryn Rogosky
Dear Sue,
Thank you so, so much. Especially considering your background, I know that Marilyn will want to join me in saying that your comments are very much appreciated -- as are those of so many others who have taken the time to express their kind support and interest in learning more about newly acquired information.
Best,
Caryn
2mntn
Ralph,

Ah well, close enough. smile.gif

I just happened to think of something you might appreciate - or not. wink.gif "You don't tug on Superman's cape...you don't spit into the wind..you don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with...."

With my compliments to the late, great Jim Croce, of course.

Ray biggrin.gif
1rider
Caryn enjoy reading Ralph's post just was questioning like he was. Also look forward to yours and Marilyn's findings. sounded like a good trip. Ken
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (HLM @ Jul 16 2008, 07:50 PM)
Well Cathy I beg to differ. I respect the culture and the customs of whatever person I am dealing with. I would not send a muslim a bible, because it is our culture.

Furthermore, you do not know the details earlier of the matter, so why do you stick your nose in? How much do you know about other cultures? One can also judge the person it is coming from and the intend in some case.

If you feel you are so well informed, than enlighten us please but dont judge what you obviously have no clue about, "cultures".

But it would be well served to start being mannerly.

Hansi sad.gif
*

Then, Hansi....please do tell us all, why, if you respect the culture of whatever person you are dealing with.........why you would take the offering of peace that Ralph gave you and so rudely throw it back in his face?????If Ralph offered me white roses, I would be honored. Indeed, if anyone offered me white roses, I would be honored.
Furthermore, my "intent" was to make you aware of something that you obviously did not know, in the hope of saving you further trouble in that regard. And you are right. I am NOT an expert on culures, therefore, when I go into someone elses country, or home or even into their "space" I will be very careful to ask what is appropriate behavior. and show respect for it.
You and I have had disagreements before, during which you told bald faced lies about me. You did apologise, and that was nice, but I wonder why you did it in the first place ??? What reason would you have for that???I have tried to put that in the past, even to the point of sending you photos that I thought you would enjoy having, but since you insist on misinterprating everyones motives, I will no longer bother.

Cathy
Cathy
Cheryl L
Caryn and Marilyn,

I first want to say, that I am eagerly awaiting for the rest of the information to be sorted out.
Thank you, BOTH for taking the time and energy to go to Egypt.
What a great honor that must have been, to go through the libraries and the Jockey Club. Just being there is a great honor. I bet you both wanted to be there forever, with all of that great info at your fingertips. You both probably had to PRY yourselves away.

You both have been forthcoming with your research and answering questions honestly and with dignity. You asked forthright questions that may or may not have been answered.
Thank you for all of your hard work.

Cheryl

P.S.
Ralph,
You can send me ANY kind of flower, any color. I will pm you my address. laugh.gif laugh.gif wink.gif
HLM
Dear sue

I truly beg to differ. On many occasions I stated "I stand corrected". and meant it.

I dont think I am controversial at all, it is just that I issue my opinions as to my findings etc but will always stand corrected with bonea fide data. If objecting to wrong data is controversal, so be it. Many a times in my life I did stand corrected and am glad for it.
But just like you, being an "Oldie" we do take many a things with a grain of salt, especially when we know with who we deal with and can trust in every way.

Now so many people try to badly judge me and never met me. amazing eh. Therefore such judgment goes in one of my ears and out the other. Would you not do the same?

Take care
hansi biggrin.gif
Serneity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear CAthy

What would you know I did? I did not reply and did not throw the flowers in anybody's face. But you need to consider cultures a bit more. Even when some folks send me Xmas flowers, it is always an uneven number, as it should be for a German. May be even flower shops are more informed about cultures?

I honestly dont know what you are talking about, that I told as boldfaced lie about you. I only met you once at the convention in california and really have no knowledge of what you are doing. So e-mail me please and tell me that "boldfaced lie".

I do not lie, dispise liars, but do make mistakes being human, but will never lie or furthering gossip. May be you confused my sense of humor I express here and there? In any case I want to know please. And then lets and these personal anilyzations, it is getting boring

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Ralph

with the greatest of pleasure will I stop e-mailing with you. Remember now, mine was in reply to your most insulting one. Sometimes it was better to write privately, then putting it over the internet, but still you should also in it stop insulting and bashing and then wonder when I reply.

So just let it be, and take good care. enjoy you life and friends, as I will mine.

Hansi
Pete Hiatt
I suggest we have this thread locked and patiently await the information promised. No one is being helped by this thread except the non-horse people.
Nadj al Nur
Ahhhhh, so Ralph is German then. I did not know that.
You posted, ON THIS FORUM on the NK Nadir thread, that I had posted a picture of Personic, you stated that it was a horrible picture, and that I had done it on purpose to discredit you and to discredit the horse(.although how that horse could be discredited is beyond me.) You then went on to disparage the way my parents had raised me (just as you did here with Ralph)
When there turned out to BE no picture posted by me, and OTHER people told you that you owed an apology, because at that time my computor did not have the capabilty to post pictures, you said sorry.
Anyone can check this out. It is there for anyone to read. I will not email it to you because it is a matter of public knowledge already.
T M Banks
Dear Hansi,
I have the greatest respect for you, although in this case I wonder about your motivation. If you don't care about "labels", why the crusade to remove this mare from her "label"? It's as though you see "Asil" as a lesser label, which contradicts your statements here. Why is it so important for Kars to be a Straight Egyptian since Exochorda is, if labels don't matter? I am confused Hansi.

Dear all,
How can this be of good to the SE or Asil horse? It is this sort of controversy that drives people away from the SE in droves. Who would bother with the expense of putting together an Egyptian herd only to have various personalities try and prove that your horses are not worthy of the label, or not even pure? I don't see people who breed English, Polish, Russian, Spanish or mixed-origin Arabians act this way.
HLM
Yes Cathy, you are correct, I did state this, but did not know that it was a 'Lie"
To me a lie is something someone purpusely says falsely, invents, knowing better. I did not know better at the same, so it was not a "Lie" and I was truly sorry that I mixed you up with the other person. I felt bad about it Cathy and apologyzed.

Now you called it a boldfaced lie, and you see how quickly upsets come about. Had the issue be reversed I would have simply stated" It was not I, you confused me with someone else"and then waited for your response..

But I also would not have retaliated at a later time, after an apology was accepted by you, with reprimandations, etc.

you give me undeserving lectures forgetting that may be we oldies are more aware and sensitive of our enherited culture than the younger generations. That we continue practizing them too. In my culture we do not insult our elders, to not reprimend them either, but respect them and show kindness and understanding .This is how we were brought up.This is how I brought my own son up.

I often feel if many people would just become as sensitive about the welfare of their horses, i.e. testing ,training,telling us about it, it would be so much better. Now I am NOT addressing you with this , I am speaking in general.
So often we get statements, remarks made, even insults by some who have never been on a horse or even bred one.

Anyway, no hard feelings
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Marilyn Lang
Ray, here is the info on your much earlier question concerning the founders of the PS. I emailed Anna B. at the PS office and asked her who were the founding members. This was her reply.

Founding members referenced in our Articles of Incorporation include: Douglas B. Marshall, James M. Kline, Judith E. Forbis, Willis H. Flick and Bradford Heck.


Pls. advise if we can assist you further.

Thanks for all.
Anna B.


Don't know how this relates to the subject matter but at least your question is answered.
Marilyn
Gari
Hi Ralph,

So good to see you here! Yes, I remember that deplorable email wishing you dead. Remember? You forwarded it to me! It was vile and I destroyed it. You are one of the most decent human beings I've ever known-the word 'saintly' comes to mind as you have consistently tried to correct yourself one way or another if you think you have stepped out of line. You sent those white roses, symbolizing peace, in the hopes you would calm things down.

Sometimes it is better to remember the old saying from our Bible, St Matthew, ch, 7 vs 6.

The scholarship provided by Caryn and yourself is simply unparalleled as I've always been able to verify your statements, whether through sources here or abroad. When doing articles for various magazines here and abroad, I've asked my editors to contact Caryn (you haven't been as easily tracked down-just too busy for us mortals) when some issue or another has been shakey. In every instance their appreciation has been huge and have gone on to contact her for other issues requiring knowledge of SEs. This is not only by way of saying thank you for your generousity of time and effort but for your enduring love of these magnificent animals under extremely hurt-felt circumstances.


Gari Dill-Marlow
2mntn
Thank you Marilyn,

I think that today, The Pyramid Society is seen by many as just that, a Society as opposed to a specific group of individuals.

With regard to the admittance, or denial of horses to the SE roster, people just refer to The Pyramid Society. Well, back then, when Exochorda was added to the roster, we can see who the PEOPLE were. They were those five founding members who were making decisions, not just "TPS", as we know it today.

Bradford Heck was Hansi's husband. Her close association with TPS and every one of the other founders is very well known. And that is why her opinions and advice are, were, and always will be important in this regard. At least to those who may care about how things got to be where they are today. She is not just like any other individual off the street and especially so when the discussion is about The Pyramid Society and it's "glory days" in the beginning.

Ray
Caryn Rogosky
Quote T.M. Banks:
"How can this be of good to the SE or Asil horse? It is this sort of controversy that drives people away from the SE in droves. Who would bother with the expense of putting together an Egyptian herd only to have various personalities try and prove that your horses are not worthy of the label, or not even pure? I don't see people who breed English, Polish, Russian, Spanish or mixed-origin Arabians act this way."

Dear T.M,
You're right, that is the core issue. No one in their right mind would wish to invest in a breeding program where at any given time, someone without authority could sit down at a computer and publicly issue rhetorical questions to cast dispersion on the credibility of any qualfied bloodlines...and get away with it.
Caryn
2mntn
Caryn,

This is exactly why The Pyramid Society should be heavily invested in education. Education that has some basis in facts. Provide information that is readily accessable to anyone with a computer. A place where people can go to double-check what they heard or read somewhere and make a better judgment - was it just conjecture, hearsay, or does it have some validity? Education that includes "the footnotes" - the skeletons in the closet that people wish would just vanish. Education that includes everybody, not just the landed gentry.

At the top of the Pyramid there should stand an SE horse whose image, accomplishments and offspring will validate the claims made as to the greatness of the Asil SE. Not just a GBE statue of our dream-world.

Ray
Nadj al Nur
Perhaps Exochorda would be a good choice???? She has certainly made her mark in the world.
Cathy
HLM
Gari

I am asking you to NOT print outragous lies here. you never saw such e-mail, because it does NOT exist. I never wished anybody dead in my life, the least Ralph. How can we believe anything anymore certain people say? Have they all gone bananas?.
The crowd is getting bigger and bigger und you fit right into it I think.
They all be so glad to have you and I think they also can learn from your experiences about those lovely Uk Arabians, espcially the Crabbett, which I always admire.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
DEar Ray

It is not correct that the founders mentioned knew of the root list. That was prepared later. Yes, I was fully aware of the entire matter because it was my idea in the first place to do something about the preservation an Dough Marshall
did the rest. I Beliee that I was the first one who got the minute draft, which is in my possession, about 3 weeks after we spoke about the Issue in November of 1968. Judi Forbis was then still out of the country.

Regardless the root list was prepared by Walter Schimanski and I have such copy.
I dont believe Dough ever saw it, nor did the other directors, at that time, as Judi appointed Walter Schimanski to prepare it. Walter did this in good faith, as also he did not realize that the AHRA showed breeder as RAS based on an export certificate, in which no breeder is shown.
My husband is still alive and okay and I think I might be able to get a confirmation from him as well.

I really dont understand why anybody would dare to dispute what factually happened at that time, how hard we all worked to make it go, howh much sacrifices monetary and physically spent to make the Society succeed.
And succeed it did because of the excellent horses who defeated some of the best of other bloodlines under saddle and at halter. The many new members we all got etc. Now if all those who bitch and complain could do a fraction of what we have done and achieved together, it would be wonderful;, But all I hear here is "Talk" and almost 200 posts and we still dont have the announced details for the mare. Amazing, truly amazing.

Indeed, it would be hard for anybody getting into this industry realizing what kick in the back they would get, rather than a grateful acknowledgment. Of course at that time our people delt and spoke with dignity, had respect for each other and enjoyed each others success, giving credit were due and NOT discrediting for personal vengance or motives. those people at that time would have never
become part of us, I assure you. We were just as selective in accepting members as we were selecting horses. Now that is my opinion to which I stand firm

Take care
hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear TMBanks

Of course I dont want any horse t lose its label, if it belongs to the horse.
Please remember the horses in the rootlist were originating from selected breeders , just as the rootlist of the sheykh Obeyd horses.

the problem which we encounteed is that it was eventually the "Label" which enhanced the value of these horses, and lateron not the horses themselves But the value original came about because of what these horses and lines accomplished under saddle and at halter, defeating some of the best of other bloodlines. And then it turned into a dollar breeding affair, no longe were horse tested under saddle by and large, and "labels" were the sales trick.

In comparrison the Asil horses- Davenports, Doyles were totally dismissed.
I went to the West Coast in May/8 and before that tried all over to find "Asil"Horses for export to the UAE. Finally I did in Oregon and bought on instructions of the buyer 3 mares and one stallions , which are here now and will be taken over by Bill in October when the heat is gone.I have other request for excellent Davenports, but need to go and see them before I can recommend. This is helping also our smaller breeders with excellent stock.

Many in the ME or Asian regions dont know about "Labels" they want a good Asil Arabian Horse, a horse which can be used under saddle in various stress performances, including flat and long distance racing. But I also recommend to look at the Syrian horses and am instructed to allocate some there once I get over there. I myself would buy some, if we were younger and not cutting back. The same goes for the excellent Bahrainis.

While I love the SEs/Asils, I will always love all horses especially the good ones, regardless of bloodline.

what I object to is when a horse is added to a rootlist, like the Sheykh Obeyd and has absolutely nothing to do with what they put together as breeders etc
and only did this to enhance their value.While some paid through the nose, others laughed all the way to the bank and I am in the middle of it getting the kicks from all sides, when I personaly have no benefits from this at all. Why do you think this desperate defence is going on that long?

Why has not anybody of these people gone abroad and researched, why suddenly now? If it was that important I would have been in the plane the next day.
Now lets wait for these new findings and then lets talk again. the bloodline of this mare- and to those who questioned- I did research under her actual original names-used her adopted name here only in discussions- has produced good horses, which can stand all on their own with or without a label. This is what any horse should be evaluated at, I feel. this is how it used to be, but then most of these horses were bred and owned by true horsemen/women, and not by dollar breeding entities as it ended up in many cases. This is my personal opinion.

Have a grand evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms

.
Gari
"Gari

I am asking you to NOT print outragous lies here. you never saw such e-mail, because it does NOT exist. I never wished anybody dead in my life, the least Ralph. How can we believe anything anymore certain people say? Have they all gone bananas?.
The crowd is getting bigger and bigger und you fit right into it I think.
They all be so glad to have you and I think they also can learn from your experiences about those lovely Uk Arabians, espcially the Crabbett, which I always admire.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms "


Excuse me Hansi but I most certainly saw that email! Perhaps you have forgotten but I havn't and Ralph hasn't. There are many ill-thought out words that hurt others....and they are conveniently forgotten but I remember how upset Ralph was because he tried so very hard to make amends with you. I also recall that it was a time when you were having a very rough time with your back... you described your back as excruciatingly painful and you were off line for quite sometime. My guess is that in your pain, perhaps your didn't realize what you were writing.
eyegor2
QUOTE (1rider @ Jul 16 2008, 07:48 AM)
Joe ive bred about half dozen se and about dozen purebreds. hope this didnt upset you was just asking . a question.
and i have children, horses are not my children! yes they are my companies in my travels through beautiful country sides. i care for them dearly and there young. yes accepted the responsibility for there care. but they are not my children. and they have more of a purpose than just a pet. i owe that to these great steads TO BE RIDEN. Shahbar loves to get out there and just light up the trail .it  would be a shame to let this just waste away in a paddock or even a pasture.  and yes i have Exachorda blood and they are magnificent Arabian horses.( Ravenwood Dynamic and Ravenwood Freya and a daughter from each).  Ken
*

Ken, I have children as well and even grandchildren so why is it an affront to call them (the horses) my children, They eat before I do They get medical as well as I do and they get their hooves trimmed every 8 or 10 weeks depending on season and on and on. So they are just as expensive to care for as children would be. I was born in the 40s and have dreamt about an Arabian horse since I learned to read at 6 years of age. I have ridden many different types of horses, from Warmbloods, Lippizans, Haflingers, Black Forest Horses and too many to list.....so that gives me a bit of credibility but I do not lord it over every Tom Dick and Harry and pound my ideas at them in any way. I enjoy my horses not only under saddle but also looking at them. I enjoy going into the boys stalls, actually quite a roomy place and hug them around the necks.....All three of them and they are more sensitive than the mares. as far as performace goes, well it is shiko Ibn Sheikh blood and I am sure you know what these are capable of. I just do not run around all over the internet and tell everyone that what they believe is a bunch of Huey and keep promoting myself over and over. I do not tell other people that their belief is suspect or that their horses are impure. Accusing others of falsifying things when in actuality no real research has been done. making stupid statements that no such type existed in Egypt at that time is asinine......Heck we even use indian numerals madified by the Arabs but they are so behind the times that they do not have a certain kind of Type... please, can you be so besotted with this person you ask no questions at all... My god man, THINK......
I am sorry but I am not impressed rather I PITY....
1rider
Joe i dont need you r PITY or anyhting else from you(opinion or fact.) Im glad your horses bring you great joy they should. And i do ask questions have ask many on this thread..Ken
eyegor2
Pity is not directed at you nor do I feel inclined to give you anything. I respect you voicing an opinion but in my opinion your logic is severely suspect, that is all. Pity is reserved for the all knowing heedless denigrater of all which is not hers......now admitting her research is not based in fact but on hearsay.......
1rider
Thankyou Joe, Caryn's new thread is quite good, good info. ken
1rider
something came to mind. how is exochorda SOF?
HLM
Gari

Unortunately Gari I can not believe you either, and for a FACT, have I never send anybody and e-mail to wish them death, nor in any other way. Ralph has on more than one occasion twisted and turned things, almost if he enjoyes looking for trouble, just as you have..How can I remember his consistent stalking of so many years ago, and you always threatening with a lawsuit when things dont go your way.. So keep on that bandwaggon, it is most becoming.

If you wish to discuss this further then lets do it inprvat and e-mail me.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ralph
Please stop...I am begging you to please stop. I have never stalked anyone in my life. I know what you said and I know what I received. But I don't care anymore. I just want you to stop. Please stop talking about me.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.